Two Become Family Podcast: Conversations and Encouragement For Your Catholic Family
Welcome to the podcast where we echo the words of St. John Paul II and encourage families to "Believe in what you are!"
We are Renzo and Monica Ortega, we've been married 13 years, we have 5 kids, and our apostolate, Two Become Family, encourages Catholics who love the Church, love each other, and still feel like marriage and family life is harder than it's supposed to be.
Through our very candid, and sometimes uncomfortably vulnerable, conversations about sex, NFP, conflict, family life, we hope to spark conversations between you and your spouse leaving you with a little more joy and a lot more hope that you have what it takes to be a family.
Visit us at https://twobecomefamily.substack.com for more for your marriage
Two Become Family Podcast: Conversations and Encouragement For Your Catholic Family
Is the Husband the Head of His Wife?
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In today’s episode, we sit down and discuss the husband’s headship and a wife’s submission. We talk about what mutual submission means, what it looks like in our marriage, and we lean on St. John Paul II for guidance. Let’s jump in!
From JP2:
“The author of the Letter to the Ephesians sees no contradiction between an exhortation formulated in this way and the words: "Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife" (5:22-23). The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious tradition of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a "mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ" (cf. Eph 5:21). This is especially true because the husband is called the "head" of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church; he is so in order to give "himself up for her" (Eph 5:25), and giving himself up for her means giving up even his own life. However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between husband and wife the "subjection" is not one-sided but mutual.”https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters/1988/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19880815_mulieris-dignitatem.html
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You're listening to Precana with the Pope, a podcast aimed at restoring confidence in marriage and family life.
SPEAKER_01Hey there everyone, this is Monica, and welcome to episode 57 of Precana with the Pope. In today's episode, we discuss the headship of husbands. Together we talk about the ever-popular and controversial submission of Ephesians 5, the fruits and roots of many marital disagreements, and who has the final say in all things. We're so happy you're here with us. Let's jump in.
SPEAKER_00So I thought we I thought this was gonna be the week that we were gonna miss an episode.
SPEAKER_01A little bit, right? Yeah, a little bit. We've had a lot of close calls.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01But last night was rough. Mm-hmm. We sat down, we tried recording, and it just wasn't it wasn't flowing.
SPEAKER_00It was not flowing. It was it just the vibe wasn't right, I think that's what the kids say.
SPEAKER_01That's what the cool kids say, at least.
SPEAKER_00The cool kids with the teenage filters. Do you see that on TikTok?
SPEAKER_01No, I don't have TikTok.
SPEAKER_00Well, okay. I didn't I saw it on Instagram about TikTok, but there's a new filter that if you use it, it like it basically just makes your wrinkles go away and your face so you look like a teenager again. Oh and people are posting videos of themselves like reacting to it and crying because like they missed I miss high school.
SPEAKER_01What does it feel like to be 33, 34, and still look like a teenager?
SPEAKER_00So I secretly went on the filter and I was like, I don't look that temperate. I don't look the same. I look like a I I look like uh you know how like I don't know if you know actually, so in St. John the Apostle, the evangelist, in all of the uh paintings, um, he's depicted feminine because he's young. Yeah. So I just look like a feminine version of me. I don't think I look younger.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So funny.
SPEAKER_00Just but so, but like people are doing that. So the so I feel now that I've put the teenage filter on, I should say the vibe was off for our last episode.
SPEAKER_01The vibe was off.
SPEAKER_00Wasn't feeling it. But so we're trying a different topic, which is like let's just not we'll address that one later.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think if we tried to redo the same topic, we would almost try to repeat the good stuff that we had last night, and then it just true too, but so we're not talking about sex today, people.
SPEAKER_00Sorry to disappoint. No sex today. It's not the phase. But what we are gonna talk about, I think, is very important. Um, this has been coming up a lot in I think it's been coming up for the last year of our podcasting. We just have to put it off.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we've been asked to do an episode on this, and I I laugh every time because I remember when we were picking our readings for our wedding, this was like a big conversation about what readings to have, and the second reading in particular, and you really wanted Ephesians 5, and I was nervous about using that, and then I eventually submitted to your desire for Ephesians 5 to be. Yes.
SPEAKER_00I'm kidding, that's not at all, that's not that's not how I that's not how I view things. That's not our that's not our formal position.
SPEAKER_01But I just I just think it's so funny because you're so adamant about it at our wedding, and then now we keep being asked to speak about it, and you're like, nope, nope, don't want to touch it yet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the bold the boldness, maybe if I had a teenage filter again, like the boldness of youth, because I remember I was definitely yeah, I remember like in my in my teens and early twenties, I was so big on like burning bridges. Not burning bridges, but like I was like, Yeah, I don't care. I'll do what I want. If people don't like it, forget it. Yep. And I'm a lot more diplomatic now of like, let's what's the prudent way of going about it?
SPEAKER_01You're more diplomatic externally outside of the home. Behind closed doors. I think there's still Oh, he's still there, there's still passionate fire burning Renzo.
SPEAKER_00Fire burning on the dance floor, Renzo. Yeah, there's there's I just know that there's ways of going about things now to to move forward the gospel. Yes. That don't require me just scorched earth everything. Because that I was very good at that. Yes. But I also didn't get things done because of that.
SPEAKER_01Um, so side note though, funny you've you bring up fireburning on the dance floor, Renzo. Did you hear the teens at retreat? So we a couple weeks ago we had a retreat for our youth group, and we did a dance party on Saturday night as kind of like a way to unwine, and we did like glow sticks and music really loud. And the kids were like, Monica, dance like you're at a wedding with Renzo and just pretend you don't know us. Did they really say that? Because they wanted us to just dance because we've talked about how we love dancing, and they're like, just dance.
SPEAKER_00We danced a little bit.
SPEAKER_01I danced a little bit. I did my I did my mom dance. It was fun, but it was just really funny. They they wanted to see the the moves come out.
SPEAKER_00Oh, they didn't tell me. I would have I would have jumped in and done more moves.
SPEAKER_01I tried getting a circle started, but it didn't work.
SPEAKER_00I got everybody in the in the gaga pit and they just stood there.
SPEAKER_01I know. Well, and then they did like chicken. They played like chicken.
SPEAKER_00They got those. This is not the vibe is off.
SPEAKER_01I just don't want to witness any injuries because then if I witnessed responsible for it. Anyways, sorry. I digress, dance moves. I like your dance moves. Thank you. Is the point of that is why you married me. That is that's the only reason.
SPEAKER_00I um hypnotized you with my hips, and then I never mind.
SPEAKER_01And then you put the Latin hips in our kids. They've got some good.
SPEAKER_00Thomas is going off today.
SPEAKER_01Um, but so back to Sorry, back to back to what we were here for.
SPEAKER_00So So the the I think let's start with reading. Well, I don't know. Let's introduce introduce the problem. So what in Catholic circles um there is a lot of debate about the headship of the husband in the family. Um and I think this is it's within the Catholic circles, but also stems into a lot of Protestant as well, uh, because of how different these things could be interpreted. Um and a lot of the argument pro the headship of the husband comes from Ephesians five. Um so do you want to read the I think it's just the last part of Ephesians five. So you can start from there.
SPEAKER_01Alright, Ephesians five, I'm gonna start on verse twenty-one. Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, be subject to your husbands as the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water and with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. Even so, husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.
SPEAKER_00I love I love the um I just love that it ends with it doesn't end that. There's a little bit more, but we don't have to talk about that right now. Um but this is the third time that the phrase I think third or fourth time the phrase um a husband shall a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. Right? It's said twice in the gospels and then in Genesis and then like reiterated by St. Paul. And I think that's an important thing to keep in the background as we uh unpack the rest of uh Ephesians. But the the main issue that people bring up is that a lot of husbands and wives want to live their faith in their marriage well, and I think that's we all understand we want to do that to some extent. Um most couples, at least that we read in different groups that ask questions about the headship of the husband, they just want to be faithful to what the church says. So basically what they're asking is like, all right, how does the church want me to live this out and then then show me how to do that? So, like, does the church want me to listen to my husband? Is he the final say of everything? If that's the case, how do I do that if I still have my own desires and blah blah blah? And and people choose to interpret this passage very differently depending on whether they lean more to the traditional route or lean more to the less traditional route. Um and I I think we I will I think we have a good experience in this 10 years in and like being aware of this verse from the beginning of our marriage.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think I I agree with you and your take on where this is stemming from, but I also think a lot of times this comes this comes up as an issue when there's a conflict in in the marriage. So if the husband wants something but the wife doesn't agree with it, um who has the final say or which way should we which way should we lean? And then I think in particular it gets murky when the husband wants something that may not necessarily actually be what's best for the family. It may actually even be sinful or um like counter to the rest of what the church teaches. So while this is a great foundation, sometimes these verses can try sometimes these verses can get manipulated to try to have something be swayed in one direction or another. So it's it's kind of like I feel like we're gonna try to discuss the opposite ends of the spectrum, like where the pendulum can swing on this, and then use some other resources, use our our JP2, our man, to try to ground us in in what um to help us interpret and ground us in the truth of this of this passage.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, so um so let's start. I like that you brought up a couple examples. So like let's start from there. Um Well, so first, so how do you see headship in general? Do you see like if I guess the phrase that the husband is a head of the family, would you how do you receive that? Like I guess I I could interpret it, but I want to know.
SPEAKER_01How do I receive it right now or how have I in the past? Because I remember it being a little like, I don't know how I feel about it. Either or when you first brought it up.
SPEAKER_00Be honest. This is a safe place.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I now I hear that, I see that, and I interpret that as like leadership, that the the husband is the leader of the family, and um through like a lot of um a lot of experience, a lot of even just like let me gather my thoughts. So like personal experience, even just within our home and within family dynamics of our own family, seeing other family dynamics of our friends and our family members or things like that, like the families outside of our home. But then also I like I've done a lot of reading on leadership. My master's degree is in educational leadership. So learning about like leadership skills and traits and qualities and what makes a good leader, and then having work experience of good leaders and bad leaders. I feel like my um my like definition of leader is more well-rounded than it used to be. Um, and and yeah, what's required of a leader is different than what I used to think was required of a leader. Um so when I hear head of the family now, I think of leader, and that comes with a lot of really positive attributes, a lot of positive adjectives now in my mind. Whereas in the past, I would think of head of the family would be interpreted as leader, but more like the boss who has, you know, who gets to have the final say, but because they are the one that just has the last word instead of the one that has come to this through, you know, put pulling resources and and really like leading out of service and out of desire to like love and care for the people that they are leading and putting them first. I'm leading because I'm putting you first versus I'm leading because I'm in charge. And that's that's my responsibility and that's what I want to do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would say that this the leadership required for family, I don't think was emphasized anywhere close to enough before getting married. So like I didn't I don't think I was ready to lead a family um when we got married because I I I didn't possess the qualities of a leader and I also didn't possess the like I didn't have the heart and courage to even step up in ways that I needed to. So like I I definitely like if I were you, I'd definitely be weary of like he's gonna lead me. Like I I could be like, yeah, I can like I'm sure that you would be more like like I can help him get along, like so we can both survive together, but like to to have the idea that he's gonna be leading me is very with the person that that I was when we first got married, I can see that that's definitely I just I just didn't have it. I didn't have the the grit and the the selflessness. It's so it's hard to talk about my old self and up like kind of talking myself up now. I still fall short in most of these areas, but at least I'm even aware of my inadequacies and my my need to rely on Christ in in those situations. Um or like you know, whenever different situations come up, but I do know that going into marriage as a young husband, um I knew that my job was to love you as Christ loved the church, but I didn't know like how much that required of me. If that makes sense, like I knew like I was supposed to die to self, and typically, like unfortunately, like for you, a lot of young Catholic men, like, oh, diet to yourself means like don't have lustful thoughts and masturbate and like don't look at porn, like that's what die to yourself means, like you'll have sex whenever. Like everything, and I think it's because I struggled with porn so much, like that's all that that meant to me. Yeah. And then like, oh, like well, then maybe sometimes you have a different dinner because she wants to have this for dinner. Like, there's just yeah little small sacrifices, because and I remember this um like talking to different talking to different priests, I can't and I disagree with them now. I remember them saying something like, Well, it and this was like when we were dating and and and engaged and struggling with with different sins and like you know, um still struggling with lust, not with porn, but struggling with lust, and then having them be like, Well, yeah, like they're the same struggles. It's good that it's the same struggles, like at least you don't have new sins. But like, I think that that was very I'm sure they were trying to be charitable and like gentle with me, but like at some point I needed to get past that and realize that holiness laid beyond just the that you don't lust anymore. And because of that, I was I was really stunted and and you married a a man child who like didn't know didn't know how to like get up and and like I was so this is a weird analogy, but like it's like um a young man who's like playing video games and playing war video games all the time and feels like that's what it means to fight. Like, no, no, you gotta put the the controller down and actually go out and fight very, very different fights.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, and it's it's funny that you you the way you're talking, I'm like flashing back to like newlywed life and how I felt during that time as well. Like engagement and you know, and and thinking about how are you going to lead our family and do I trust you as a leader and things like that. And and I did to a certain extent, like you said, like I I mean I trust you to, you know, do certain and it and it was more like I trusted your faithfulness to me and to Antichrist. Like I trusted you that you loved me. I never doubted that you loved me, that your feelings were there, you were passionate about your love for me, and you always wanted to do the right thing. And then I also trusted your um your prayer life and your commitment to the sacraments. Like I knew that you knew that Mass was important, that that the Eucharist was the, you know, where to turn to when you were doubting. I knew that you were um going to confession, I knew that you were praying. So I felt like you had so many of the right pieces that I wasn't sure how that would look in marriage, like how that would be executed, but I had a lot of faith in that you wanted the right things. So I I wanted to trust you, you know. Does that make sense? Like I wanted to reciprocate that level of feeling, but it's amazing that yeah, like once marriage happened and push came to shove, it's not just about how we feel. And then it really became like now we have to live how we feel. Now we have to live this faith, this faithfulness to one another, and this faithfulness to to our faith, to our Catholic faith. And and that's where things got kind of ugly for a while too. And how how do I practically follow your lead, you know, in these situations and stuff? So I think it but it's just it's to me, it's like sweet to remember that version of Renzo too, because man, you you meant so well. Like you really did. Like I knew, I knew that. I knew that you meant well.
SPEAKER_00Um I like that you brought up a bunch of like um like leadership skills that you had to that you learned in in school and and things. Like I knew, I know that one thing that I learned as a leader outs, you know, outside of marriage was that my job wasn't to just like give orders, and this is again outside of marriage, like other other roles and jobs and things that I've done. Um as a leader, my job isn't to like say, like, this is what needs to be done and expect people to just execute, um, but to empower people, like you delegate, but also empower them that they have the abilities to do things. And I and I remember bringing that into marriage, and like so there was ways I I wanted you to handle situations with relationships, and there's there's ways I wanted you to do things. Yes, and for such a long time I couldn't understand why you couldn't just listen to what I had to say. Yeah, just but and then like not in a root way, but you'd be you'd come up you'd come to me with a problem, and and there was this problem that needed a solution. This wasn't just like you venting, like you wanted a solution to this, and I'd be like, all right, this is what you're gonna do, blah blah blah. And and you would hear it, but then you would do ba boom, like you would you you you would do something different, and I and it happened so consistently, and I never understood like why. And I used to get so frustrating.
SPEAKER_01Oh, so you would be why did you do that? Yes, is a phrase you said so often. I like I can think of it. I can think of me first year teacher. I got this email from a parent, and I'm up late at night, like belaboring. Oh my gosh, I was so dramatic, but I was so torn apart by these freaking emails from parents, and you're like, well, just respond this way, or just say this, and then and then I would say that and then add my own ending. And why did you say that? Why did you do that? I don't know.
SPEAKER_00This is this is also this is also young Renzo who's willing to burn burn any bridge possible. So, like but I I remember so I'm remembering those situations. But I remember then at some point I I internalized and I was like, my job as a leader is not to tell her what to do, but it to empower her to do the things she knows she needs to do. Um, and I like that that's that's the like I feel like in that way I'm I'm the head of the house. Like I like I don't I I we still we have discussions, but like most of the time, like I think you just make decisions and like you I trust your decisions and and I've I I've seen you really blossom and like feel empowered to take like situations head on, especially conflict and you hate conflict, you hate any any what's the word? No, it's not conflict, the um confrontation. You hate you hate conflict, you hate confrontation, and I've seen you grow to be able to do that. And I'm just like, that's and I know it's because like I have just talked you up and been your fan and been like you can do this. You go, I know there's times where I've fallen and I've been like, why did you do that? But still, like there's there's this growth here too. But but like that's one of the ways I've seen my my headship take form, is is that like my job is to empower you to be you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I think that's really interesting though, yeah, talking about that transition, that transformation is it wasn't always necessarily like an internal transformation, though. It's not like I feel more confident in confrontation, and it's also not that you feel less desire to control the situation, but it's it's in our choosing and how we face these situations that we do grow in confidence a little bit, but it it's it's not always the feeling part, but it's like it's it's controlling those feelings and not always acting exactly how we want to act, but like, okay, I'm gonna use those feelings to Motivate me to choose the right behavior.
SPEAKER_00Um But also like I I know that I've worked for leaders who have been way over the top like control freaks and you you're so scared to make the wrong decision that you never make any decision unless they tell you explicitly and you follow it step by step.
SPEAKER_01And I felt that way early in marriage. Right.
SPEAKER_00And then I've worked for other leaders who like they give you so much freedom that you don't want to you want to do right by the freedom you've been given. Right. And I think that's that's part of like what our relationship with Christ is like is that he's he's given us his free will and and grace to be able to do things. Um but then also I think within our marriage of just like you got this, you can do this, and like and feeling like you're in a safe place where if you fail, I failed, okay. Let's try again. Yeah, we can still do it. Yeah, I know that I'm like I and again, like my feeling may not feel that way, and sometimes my feeling comes on my face, so you can read how I'm feeling, but my words and my actions try to show differently and try to be supportive. Um, another way that I think the headship of the husband took it manifested itself in our marriage, it was most recently when you when you got sick. Um so for those of you, and I know we like alluded to this in and out, and sorry we never shared a lot. We might share more in the future.
SPEAKER_01We still don't have all the answers.
SPEAKER_00We don't have we don't have any answers, so um, except a lot of prayer. Um so we'll share at some point. Um, but so I think it was from like October until present. Um, Monica was having different medical situations popping up, and I felt like it was my responsibility to make sure that you felt empowered enough to advocate for yourself, but also like to like we're not just settling for like I I just felt very like no, we're not we're not settling for just like oh we don't know what it is, or like the no, or the first the first answer, the first explanation that didn't feel like it fit everything. No, like you got poo-pooed so often of like, no, no, it's just this, no, no, it's just that. And I and like you were told that I wasn't always in the doctor's appointments with you, but you would kind of tell me what they said, and a lot of times it was me saying, like, no, that's not okay. We're gonna do this. And that's where I've I really felt in that situation. Though those are that those bonds were so difficult, like spiritually, intellectually, like physically, like I I struggled a lot, but I remember like you just trusted. Like, if I said, like, no, I don't think it's this, I don't think it's just anxiety, and we're gonna keep pursuing, and you were very and like you were second guessing yourself, like maybe it is, like maybe I'm I'm you know making this up in my head, and I just remember being like, No, you you're not making it up your head, we're gonna keep looking for answers. And I think that was one of the like looking at and I wasn't even planning on talking about this, so we're we're we're kind of talking now, but that whole situation was one of the ways that like that's the headship of you just trusted me. Like, okay, because I think you were going back and forth with like, should I keep fighting? Should I just accept it? Blah blah blah. And then like I took a stand, I said, no, we're gonna do this. And you uh that it was really beautiful the way you just trusted that we're gonna keep we're gonna keep going, we're gonna try to keep trying to find things out.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I will say that there were there were two main reasons why that trust felt so easy to me. Like it just felt naturally and absolutely the right thing to do. Um, two main reasons. One is because you know me intimately well. Like I know that you know me. So when I came to you with second guesses or concerns or worries, you were able to identify for me why those were lies, why those were not uh, why that wasn't an accurate depiction of me or the situation or how I was feeling, because you know me so intimately well that you were able to like reference things and be like, this is why what you're saying isn't the full picture, and this is why we have to keep pursuing answers, because the my wife is not like this, you know, and so um because of like our just our history and our vulnerability with one another, our intimacy, like I trusted that you knew me, that you knew me so well to speak into all of those situations. But then also I trusted because you initiated so many pieces of the puzzle. So yeah, it was me that had to advocate in the doctor's office, but it was you that initiated and did like a lot of research, and you said you need to bring this up, and you found this doctor, and you you did a lot of the um behind the scenes work so that I knew I wasn't alone in this. So even though I was the one that was alone in the doctor's office, and I'm the one that's like fe experiencing these health situations, I wasn't alone in this like health crisis. So we were together as a team, and I really felt that because uh because your behaviors backed the things that you were saying, you were initiating in ways that I could have on my own, but that would have been just a lot of extra work for me because I was also not feeling well. So for you to take a load off of me and for us to do it together, it really felt like a team effort, and I was following like I was following my coach because he knew he knows how to how to like face this opponent right now.
SPEAKER_00Well, one of the analogies I thought of, and just trying to think of like analogies explain the the headship of the husband, but also like the leadership of the wife within the family, was the analogy of a captain and coach of a team. And like I I don't think this will hit for anybody unless like they've been in the situations of being the coach and having a captain. Because like I and and then I've seen it as an assistant coach, especially on the basketball team when I was coaching for for high school, the two state championships in my tenure there. Um, and seeing how there's a head coach and then there's a captain, and like if you were to ask the players who was in charge, I don't think they would identify either because it depends. Right? Because I remember like on the court, like the coach is kind of calling the shots, but the captain is really the one that knows the players and like we should be doing this. I've seen so many captains and coaches like just go at it on on and like from witnessing, they do it well, but like going at it, like we should do this, what do you think? Always going back and forth, and that the the coach isn't the one that like gets the final say, it's the one he the coach is the one that at the end of the day all blame falls on him, right? The blame doesn't the responsibility, the weight of all of it does not fall on the captain. Like the coach might and like the coach might pull the card of like because this all falls on me, I have to have the final say, let me make the call. Most good coaches that I've seen don't do that though. They go with what the captain is saying because they trust the captain, and then but then they're like, all right, but I made the call to trust the captain and now everything falls on me. Like, I think that's a very I've seen as a very beautiful synergy of like and and seeing that like and I think that falls well with like how we function within the family.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think it also speaks really well to the qualities of the feminine masculine genius within relationships. So I'm not saying that captains in the basketball of your boys' basketball team were more feminine than the coach, but I'm sure Ronan would not like to hear that. I don't think he would like to hear that. That's not what I'm saying, Army man. Um, no. So what I'm saying though is the captain has a more of a relational building in the team setting. Like they they know more intimately their teammates because they're like they're in it. They're in it. And it's not that the coach also doesn't know that, but they come from a different perspective. And the coach comes from a very like analytical strategic perspective, and the captain comes from a like how how can that be implemented in this actual combination of people that we have on the team? Like, who do I have on the court with me right now, and how can that how can that work, or how can that maybe be adapted to the strengths and weaknesses of who we have in front of us? And and I think that speaks very well to the husband and wife too, and the intimacy, like the the way that their complementarity um it can can be executed really well if you like if you just accept that there are differences and they're meant to be complementary.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I also think, and I don't think a lot of young husbands really appreciate that, like at the end of the day, the weight falls on you. So like the weight that the in not just the weight of, yes, the weight of whether or not your wife and your children make it to heaven, but also like how your how your family is functioning together, how your relationship with your wife is, how um like the intimacy in the marriage, the the dis any dysfunctions in the marriage. I take that as like that's that falls on me because I've been given headship. So it's not just like I'm given headship, so therefore I have to I tell people what to do. Like, no, I'm given headship. That means at the end of the day, like they're going to look at, okay, what did you do about all this? So like I come home and things are a mess, and and I see that my wife is struggling and and she seems to be unhappy with being a stay-at-home parent and all those things. Like, okay, they follow me, what am I doing about it? Not just like, oh, oh gosh, she's upset again. Like, I just remember that was me first half of our marriage. Like, I didn't I didn't take ownership of what was happening in our home. I just saw it as like, well, she's gonna deal with it, she's gotta figure out how to handle it. You know, right? Like, there's a there's a lot of like passing off.
SPEAKER_01It was either a passing off or it was an I'm gonna tell you how you could do this better. And it's like, bro, you're not here. Like you have not seen this, you're not in it. What you're telling me is can't actually happen. You know, like you you just don't know. And and I feel like that's again that really key component of a good leader is somebody who's who's in it though, who's in the game. They're not, it's not the GM, like it's the coach. Like you, you're on the court, you know, and you're and you're a part of it, and you're at the practices and you're you're showing up, you're part of the commitment. Um, so that those leadership skills, I think, are so integral to the success of the family, to the success of the marriage, because it's not just dictating what I think should happen. Oh, I read this somewhere. Oh, this family over here does this, so we should do it too. Um, or whatnot. And it's also not the the passing off of, well, what happens in the home is your responsibility because you're the one who's there all the time, and I'm gonna be the one that brings in the money because I'm at work all the time.
SPEAKER_00Or or even like the I I know I've seen and heard husbands be like, Well, oh, you make a decision on that because you know better. Which like I I'm fine with that. There's a lot of things I defer to you because I do think you know better, but owning that decision, right? There's a difference in like passing it off of like, well, I'm putting this on you, so therefore it falls on you, but more of like, I'm making a choice because I know you're better equipped to answer this.
SPEAKER_01So there's also there's the there's that, but then there's also the desire to be part of that process, though.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01Like, you make the final call because I trust you and you know better than I do in this situation, but like clue me in on it, include me on it. Maybe I can throw some some ideas back and forth, some observations here that I've seen. Maybe you haven't thought of it from this outside perspective because you're too deep in it right now. Um, so like being willing to be a part of it and to learn about it so that also the decision that gets made by the wife you can like fully support and you can live and act on it too, you know, when when the situation falls on your lap or when you're when you're in on it too. Ladies, do you wish that you could track your cycles more closely? Men, do you hope to understand your wife's changing hormones? Anito can do just that. An ANITO is a monitor and an app that measures a woman's fertility hormones daily. It measures estrogen, LH, FSH, and progesterone with every test. The quantitative data can be used to help identify changes in fertile phases, determine when a couple can try to achieve or avoid pregnancy, and show hormone deficiencies or irregularities that can be brought to a doctor's attention. The anido can be used by single women, women with irregular or regular cycles, during the postpartum season, and by families desiring confidence in their family planning. We've been using the ANIDOM monitor for almost one year and have been so grateful for the information it's provided. It has helped us to better understand the pre-ovulatory estrogen fluctuations from PCOS, shown us where illness has delayed ovulation, and confirmed ovulation to remove some of the guesswork of the ending of our fertile window. For more information, check out the link to Anito in our show notes. If you'd like to invest in one, be sure to use the code MON15 for 15% off your purchase. That's MON15 for 15% off. A lot of the stuff right now because of our season of life is I think I keep thinking kid-related situations, but um, but even like the this this these health decisions, which house are we going to buy? Are we going to change jobs? You know, like um, should I go for that promotion?
SPEAKER_00I'm just even like, are we going to conceive another, you know, already conceiving as to our family?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What are we doing for the holidays? Like all these different, I think this comes into all these different situations from what seems to be very simple and basic to high-level decisions. By you being involved, by both spouses being fully involved in the small decision-making processes, you really get to know one another and how the other thinks, and what are the consideration factors for these small things so that we can apply those strategies. We can apply that approach to medium-sized decision-making things and and then the high-level, high stress things. Then you just you know how the other one thinks and perceives and lives. Um, so that when the final call is made, the other person is brought into consideration as well.
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think that kind of goes to so so we didn't really directly answer the question of you know, like who gets the final say on things. Um, and I think I think it we can go back to scripture um to kind of unpack that a little bit. Um, but I think it's important because you're reading from Ephesians chapter five, and Ephesians has six chapters, and the first four chapters of Ephesians really lays out um, and I don't remember this because I haven't read it recently, but from what I remember, it lays out like the Christian life and like all the rules, and I believe I I don't know if it's chapter two or three where he talks about like the fruits of the spirit and what it's like to live in the spirit. Like he really just St. Paul really lays out um like a treatise of what it means to be a Christian, and and so everything's assumed. So like by the time you're reading chapter five, it's assumed that you are a person who's living a Christian life, who's living a life in the spirit, who's got the fruits of the spirit in your life, who's who's avoiding um all the vices that are that are listed in Ephesians.
SPEAKER_01So like you're avoiding living a life of virtue.
SPEAKER_00So like you're you're you're a husband and wife that are fully engrossed against living a life in the spirit, who is what that in in Pauline writing, it's it's directly uh against the life in the flesh, which meaning like you're not controlled by by vices and by by by concupiscence, but like you're living a life of virtue grounded in Christ. And now in from that you can then go into the the be subject to one another. But you um right when we first started this, you're asking, like, what if a husband is asking his wife to do something that's counter to the church, like then then he's not the head at that time, like he loses that headship. Right. Because he's this is again, this is for a a a Christian couple that's both equally devoted to their faith. Right. So like a husband can't just pull that card and be like, Well, I'm the your your faith says I'm the I'm the head, so therefore you gotta listen to me. You're not acting as Christ, so like no, you're you don't have this right now.
SPEAKER_01Right. It's like it's like referring to your nameplate versus your your actual position. Like my my nameplate says I'm husband, so therefore I am head, but like how how many bosses are a joke, right? And you don't take them seriously or you can't follow them, like look at what look at what they're doing behind the company's back, or whatever the case may be. Like, if we want to look at leaders outside of like what a marriage is, if you're not living in that leadership role fully, and in marriage, I mean it's like from your toes to your head, like it's every part of your life is engrossed because the two have become one flesh, right? Like this is your whole life is your marriage and your leadership and your headship. And if you're not living that, then that like that authority, that that role of leader is you're not living it, so you're you aren't it. It like it is you or it isn't you.
SPEAKER_00Well, and but in what I mean though, specifically if your husband's asking you to to to sin or to do something that's so like I think what you're saying could can apply to leaders who like alright, they're Christian, they're not asking a bad thing of their wife, but like their wife doesn't trust them because they haven't been living out a virtuous life. So, like, so those are so first, so so hold on to that thought though. So, first, if your husband is asking you to do anything contra the church, anything sinful, that's you don't have to listen to that because he's not doing what he's supposed to be doing. Now, what if you do have a husband who like is like lukewarm, kind of in, kind of out, but not living a life where like you're like, yeah, he knows me, so you're not living a life like yes, he knows me, so I can trust him with things like then what you know that's kind of I think where where yours kind of falls in what you were just saying, because they're not really a leader yet. Um, though I would argue that that there is some sort of beauty in in following anyway, but it depends on the situation that's very nuanced because like it's not you can't just follow him down any any any dark alley because it's just because he's walking and he says, Come with me. Like you have to be prudent and I have my nunchucks. Right. Feel very attacked. No, but you you like you have to I think there's prudence in that, and I think that was kind of what you were doing in the first few years of our marriage. Because like I I was trying, so it's not like I wasn't trying, but but you also it I at least you could recognize that there was something dysfunctional here, maybe if you couldn't identify it and and point to it directly. Um but if you can't trust your husband completely, like I think that's that needs to be addressed before you start blindly following him anywhere.
SPEAKER_01Right. I agree, and I think I think what you're saying, it is pretty situational. So maybe there's a certain area of of your family life, of your married life, of his life that still hasn't been well formed yet. But then there's these other areas where he is very strong, and you're like, okay, I try you know, if you if we're talking about this circumstance, I like I trust you when it comes to medical stuff because of your experience in the medical field and um and and just your nerdiness and like your your love of research, uh like regardless of like the state of your soul at the time, like I'm gonna trust you because that's that's just where your strengths lie. Um but that may not be the case in other situations. So there are a lot of times, for example, like in um like with child development questions, and you're just like, is this an age appropriate reaction that our kids are having, or is this something that needs to be addressed? And sometimes it's like, no, that's just therefore. And sometimes like, no, that's a thing we need to work on. And you kind of defer to me to that because that's where some of my strengths lie because of my background or what have you. So I think I think you're right that there are certain times where yeah, go for it. Sometimes, like, uh, you probably like, well, how about we work on forming this area of your life? And then sometimes it's he means well and he's trying. And if we go in this direction, it's not gonna like our family's not gonna combust. So let's practice leadership. Like, let's practice, um, let's practice going with your your plan, knowing that this is this is new, like this is new for both of us, and we're we're working on it. And and again, it's not evil, it's not sinful. So, you know, where where can we improve? And like, oh great, this worked really well. What did we learn from it? Or this didn't go so well. What did we learn from it? And and I think um something that's really important for husbands is humility in that that like to accept that like I went with this plan and it may not have been that wasn't the outcome I was hoping for. Um, but I think humility is a great attribute of a leader, you know, in in recognizing like it just really look humility is looking at yourself the way God sees you. Like humility is looking at yourself as as you really are, which is imperfect, but a work in progress. Um one um one book I really liked. This actually I think really helped with our understanding of leadership, or like helped us to work on our leadership. Skills was Chasing Humility by Joel Stepanick. I thought that was a really great book. Really easy to digest. So um yeah, sorry, digressing.
SPEAKER_00No. Um so and now what would you say though for because I think like the situations that most people find themselves in, um, not this particular situation, but situations like that, is that um, say for example, the husband wants to have wants to add to the family, thinks it's time, wife doesn't feel ready, doesn't feel like um, you know, for whatever reason, she feels like her discernment's in one direction, and his discertment seems to be in another, and then he is frustrated because he can't have sex as often during the during the month because of the NFP and avoiding. Um, for those kind of situations, and I'm I'm saying this one specifically because I read about it today, um, but I think there's similar ones like that where there's like there's a tension of like I chose this, you chose that, and now which way do I go? But in and but and I think the key indicator to me is that if the husband is is showing resentment for not being able to have sex, like there shows like there's something wrong here, and I'm not saying don't listen to your husband, because I don't I I'm not in a position to say that, but I am saying that before you you do either of you try to do anything, you need to resolve that. Like that's that's not a that's not a good thing. I can I can get behind I discern this, I discern this, right? We discerned, we we agree, we did sorry, we my hands are on opposite sides of the table. Um but we discern two opposite things.
SPEAKER_01I discern this and you discern that. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Well, okay. Yes. So we both discern two different things.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you know, we're both in a good place, we're both living our faith, we're both growing in virtue, we're not sh harboring resentment for the other. We just have two different discernments. That's addressed differently, and Dr. Bob kind of walked us through how to do that. Yeah. But but a discernment where there show seems to be resentment and and anger and things that aren't, again, they're not, those aren't fruits of the Holy Spirit. That's not a life in the spirit. Those those are bad fruits that are showing themselves. We need to address that before we start talking about who's ahead and who's not.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And and I and I think that's where the humility of the headship needs to come in because if you're not acting as Christ, and and no, if you're if you were just being resentful just because you don't get what you want, like that's not what Christ was doing. Yeah. Um, and that's not laying your life down. So that's where you need to be willing to address those things. So then we can, all right, now that that's off the table and we're not, you know, those bad fruits aren't there. Okay, now how do we address that you and I have discerned very differently?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I really feel like, yeah, looking at the fruits of these differences of opinions, these differences of discernment, these this this tension, because there's there's times where we have had tension where it's like quality go back and forth. I really want to understand you. You really want to understand me. And like it can look tense and it can feel tense, but there isn't resentment. Like there, I feel like they're like resentment and tension are are not synonymous, but they can go hand in hand sometimes.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think tension is scary. I think some people can misinterpret tension as if you're uncomfortable with tension, miss codependent over here who hates confrontation.
SPEAKER_01That was one thing I really had to learn through this process of marriage that like not all tension is bad, that like being uncomfortable can can be okay. Um, so I think it's really important for us to have a better vocabulary to like label our feelings and to label situations. And tension can come in the same situation as resentment, or tension can come from the same situation as like motivation or like like a desire to get to move forward to like go somewhere. Um, so I think that it's really important to for each individual to step back and be like, what kind of tension am I feeling? What kind of discomfort am I feeling? You know, and then work from there. But like a lot of that comes from looking at the the fruits of it. Like resentment often like a like something that you would see is cold shoulder or like really snarky remarks, whereas like discomfort tension is like, I want to understand you, let's keep talking. Like they they look different. So really like pause for a second and see what's happening in front of you to identify that. But yeah, if if resentment, if anger, if fear, like if these negative fruits are what you're seeing in your life, then you need to go to the root and solve that before you make a decision of who says what and which discernment are we going with and and things like that, because you you can't act out of fear and you can't act out of resentment. Like those are neither of those are gonna produce good, they're they're gonna continue to produce bad fruit. And they're not that's not the way that God wants your marriage to be.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. And then and I again, like once that's resolved, then you can go to the discernment process. And I really liked so what St. John Paul talks about in the document, and I'm not gonna say it in in Latin because I'm not Molearis.
SPEAKER_01I know the first word.
SPEAKER_00That's that's great. I like your practicing. Um it's on the dignity of women.
SPEAKER_01Sign me up, coach. Captain's ready.
SPEAKER_00It's on the dignity of women. Um he talks about mutual submission. Um, so do you want to just read that quote?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. The author of the letter to the Ephesians sees no contradiction between an exhortation formulated in the way and the words, wives be subject to your husband as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of the wife. The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious tradition of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way, as a mutual submission out of reverence for Christ, which comes from Ephesians 5 21. This is especially true because the husband is called the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. He is so in order to give himself up for her. And giving himself up for her means giving up even his own life. However, whereas in the relationship between whereas in the relationship between Christ and the church, the subjection is only on the part of the church. In the relationship between husband and wife, the subjection is not one-sided but mutual.
SPEAKER_00And that's super controversial in again a lot of Catholic circles because they think that that's not that he is reading into s into scripture something that's not there, which could be argued if he looks at it as the the husband is subject to the wife the same way the wife is subject to the husband. Because it again, back to our earlier example, um I do believe that the author of Saint uh the author of Ephesians I like that St. Jean Paul does that, because we actually don't know who the author of Ephesians is.
SPEAKER_01A lot of us assume we assume it's Saint Paul. We don't know.
SPEAKER_00That's a different that's for a different thing, though. Um But he um but the author of Ephesians is saying that the husband needs to be the husbands are the head of the wife, so therefore, in my mind, I read that as the husband is the one that takes the brunt of the responsibility at the end of time.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Right? That and I don't think that both can be the head and take that brunt of responsibility. That does not mean that the husband isn't subject at all to the wife. I just think it's a very different type of subjection. Yeah. Number one. Um, and I think that's why there he starts with uh 521 saying, be subject to one another. Yeah. So there's so I think that like we there's a there's a there's something there of like you both need to be subject to one another, but then also you have different roles. And I think people struggle with that of like, well, how could like St. Jean Paul's just making this up now because he's saying that there's no subjection, like there is, it's just different.
SPEAKER_01Right. But like, but look at how look at how Christ took on that ownership, took on that responsibility of our well-being. So like look at how the husband is called to take on the responsibility of the goodness and the holiness of his family is is being willing to die for that salvation, like, and that like physical death, emotional death, death to desires, death to like death to pride, wanting to be the head of the church, right? It's like it's death to all of that, and that is something that um is just written in the masculinity of man to to bear that weight and and to yeah, and to take on that responsibility. Um so if the man is again, so going back to like if the man is living in a way that demonstrates that, then you would trust him, you would want to follow him. He he is the leader, he is the head, because he's living like Christ lived for his people.
SPEAKER_00And I think the way like as you're talking, the way I think the subjection, because I'm like, okay, how does a husband how is he subject to his wife? Um like and just I I I think I I you know we're praying as we're as we're trying to speak here. Um, but like part of me is like, you like you're my you're my cause different from what Christ because Christ doesn't need the church, right? The church needs Jesus, Jesus doesn't need the church. Whereas like, no, I need you, and I'm subject to that. Um But like that you are you're my comfort, you are what gives me my ability to be able to lead and to be able like there's just a lot that you like if you weren't in your role and I wasn't like there's times when you're just like you need to do this, and I'm just like, Yeah, you're right, because I know that if I don't, I'm not able to fulfill my role anymore. Right? Like there's a there's and like you have a power that you can tell me, you can tell me what to do, and that I don't lose my husband because of it, because but like the and there there's a difference, and that's because in that subjection there's love. It's not like a a who has the order, who has the final say, but like out of love you're speaking to me in the thing, and I'm like, no, she's right.
SPEAKER_01It makes me think of the wedding at Cana when Mary initiates, she intercedes for that first miracle, and it's in her, like it's in her feminine genius. I was talking to the girls at retreat about this because like you think of all the miracles that Jesus performed, and you're like, oh, water into wine, that was easy, you know. Like he didn't he'll bring sight to the blind, raise from the dead, move a mountain. He changed water into wine for somebody's wedding so they weren't embarrassed. But like that's just the that exudes the feminine genius of how woman just knows the needs of others like intimately well and wants wants good for the people around them. Like they just she doesn't want them to feel shame or embarrassment on the the biggest day of their life, she wants to celebrate with them, so she gives Jesus the nudge, right? And like it's arguable he would have done it anyway, or is that really whatever the case may be, but like like Christ shows that mutual submission to to woman in that moment where she just she knew and spoke, and he's like, you're right.
SPEAKER_00Such an interesting I've never thought of that because technically you you could say that Jesus was subject to Mary out of being her son, right? Subject to Mary and Joseph. Yes. Um and similarly in heaven, she is like she's our intercessor, she's the Mediatrix of all grace, she is our quote redemptrix. Um like she has the all these roles, and you I don't think you would I don't think it's right to say that she's subject to that Jesus is subject to Mary in heaven. However, there's there's there's still the role of like what she's the mother. Right? So like there's yeah, there's there's yeah, that's that's there's something there that I gotta sit with.
SPEAKER_01But like But again it goes to like if she's and and obviously she is in heaven, but like living just women, like living that life of virtue and and doing Ephesians 1 through 4, then those promptings are prompted out of prayer and out of like out of goodwill and out of like following what's good for the other. Um Right.
SPEAKER_00Well, because I was like what I was saying before was that in kind of what you're going at, like I know I couldn't do this life without you, right? Like that's one of the reasons we got married. I was like, oh she's gonna she's she's a she's gonna help with a lot of things. But no, but like, but but I know that and like beyond a shadow of a doubt, like I know that there's so much that I I can do and and similarly like to what we were I was saying about you, like I believe in myself and and I step up for things and and because of you, um and so like I can't just dismiss that as like she's just a a pawn in my house that I tell what to do. Like, no, she's she is she is my wife, she is my my Ezher, what we talked about in Theology Body, like you are God's presence in my life um and my helper, and that carries so much more weight in it than just like just like you're not my partner, you're more than my partner. So, like, yes, that's why I can be subject to you in situations because I know that there's things that you can see that you're praying about that you you're getting promptings that like I know that I'm not maybe for whatever reason, and I have to trust that um in a very different way that you trust me. Like it's just it's different subjection, but it's still subjection.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00In submission.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah, so like mutual also doesn't mean like equal. It's not tit for tat, it's not oh, we're both gonna submit at the same time, but it's this, it's this deferring to the strengths and discernment of the other when it through in trust and in faithfulness, right? And like, and that's our job for the church. There are times where we just we don't see the whole picture, so we trust her in her wisdom and we trust in Jesus' teachings because we may not see the full picture. We don't always understand everything, but we're going to submit to that because he knows better, she knows better, um, because they come from a different perspective, one that I don't have, and that perspective trumps this it it exceeds in the situation. That's it's it's more relevant in the situation, whatever the case may be. So it's not always about having the final say, but it's a in you submitting, though, that is almost like your final say. It's it's the final say is that we've decided on this because he knows better. We've decided on this because she knows better, but it's still a we, it's still a mutual submission to this discernment, to this decision.
SPEAKER_00I liked how Dr. Bob talked about mutual submission being both of us submitting our wills to God. Right? So not submitting to the will to the one or the other, but both submitting to God and then moving from there. Yeah. I think that's again, like we it's it's so easy to have this conversation about the the headship of the husband and forget you're talking to Christians, right? Like to not talk, you talk, you don't talk about the fruit of the Holy Spirit, you don't even talk about being having a life in the Spirit and in a solid prayer life, and you you just talk about it as like who who has the final say. But he really put it in perspective when he said in the last in his episode that he was with us about both of us submitting to God, and then from there talking about our discernment and both being willing, like, all right, because because that's the humility that both of us have to have. Like, say we think we discerned a thing, and all right, but our spouse thinks differently. Okay, we're gonna submit everything to God and say, maybe I'm wrong.
SPEAKER_01There may be a third plan.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01By bringing the two together, there might be a third answer, right? Like, I think I'm going back to that that hypothetical actual couple that you read about today. Um, wife feels not ready to have kids, husband wants more kids, then gets resentful about um avoiding during the fertile window and things like that. But to a certain point, like if if we're both gonna bring these wills to God, then like now here we get hypothetical because I don't know their personal situation, but I did read the same post, but like levels of postpartum anxiety and depression and feeling overwhelmed in the home, feeling like not keeping up with everything, my um like my my my my personal well-being is is floundering here, and then him wanting to not deny God's will in their life to have more, like if our family is meant to have more children, we should have more children and things like that. So by bringing those wills to God and then saying, like, do with this, like mold our hearts to yours, you know, and and bring like breathe life into this situation, then you know, maybe it's not a it's not a closed door, it's a not yet on the part of the woman. And for the husband, it's the I have work to do to help support my wife so that we as a family can grow.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Right. And that like that's like a plan C because it's it's both of their desires put into one situation. Um, and I really think that there's often so much beauty that can happen in by vulnerabil vulnerably bringing our wills and then submitting to God's and having like have like living the life that He desires for us. And and um and who's to say that God isn't speaking to us through our spouse in some like again, going back into the tension or the challenge of like you often speak love and life into my life in ways that I didn't really want to hear, but then when it's like wow, that really I'm not living in full freedom because I'm tied down by fear or anxiety or um productivity or perfectionism. Like those are those are fruits in my life that need the roots need to be ripped out, and there's times where you call that out in me.
SPEAKER_00I love that you and I can call each other out about our phones and we don't argue. Yeah. Like that's just a clear like you and I are just like fine.
SPEAKER_01Sometimes we huff. We huff, we huff. More at ourselves than at ourselves.
SPEAKER_00More of like, I just want to finish. I was almost done. Just let me finish. But like we, but that's I think that's one of the ways that we are both mutually subject to one another. Yeah. Like if the other points out to like, hey, you probably should get off your phone, there's no argument. There's just like, yep, she, but I I wow, that thing is a great analogy. Because like, yeah, I I can't as husband be like, well, I, as the head, think I should stay on my phone. Like, no, you're calling me out a thing that we've both discerned we need to start doing, and like that's like, all right, even if even if I just got on and you may not realize what I'm doing in the situation, like, okay, you're right. Yeah, I could do this later. There's no there's no importance here. Um, and like that's I think it just so it's a silly thing. So like you just went from a really big thing, and I'm talking about a small silly one, but like it's in all the things, it's in all the things, yeah. And and I think I really think it comes down to how much we trust the other. And yeah, I a lot of it is rooted in Jesus, and it's it's rooted in that relationship in Ephesians 1 through 4. And I I would encourage any couples listening who who might still struggle with this within their marriage, read through Ephesians 1 through 4 and consider are you living that life? Is your is your spouse living that life? Because if you're not, I think you need to start the conversation there. Like don't jump to headship. No, let's start with the other stuff first.
SPEAKER_01What a cool Lenten activity, Lenten challenge to read Ephesians as a couple. I think we should do that.
SPEAKER_00We should do it. Okay.
SPEAKER_01I think you and I should do that.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Whoever wants to join us is welcome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. We'll start we'll start on Wednesday. All right, so see if what listeners wanna want to do it with us.
SPEAKER_01Want to join us on our our impromptu Lenten 40-day but minus seven challenge. 33-day challenge.
SPEAKER_00Ephesians 4 is not gonna take 40 days.
SPEAKER_01I know, but I'm just thinking of Mark Wahlberg with his 40-day challenge.
SPEAKER_00It's not Lent, it's it's it's the Mark Wahlberg 40-day challenge. Thank you. Good morning, America.
SPEAKER_01So we're bringing you a 33-day Lenten challenge.
SPEAKER_00It's gonna be seven days, and you're gonna like it.
SPEAKER_01Um, let's do it.
SPEAKER_00So I think again, we didn't really so and I know people want more specifics, and I think I think the desire for more specifics is honestly, I think, is the the desire to not have to think for yourself and be in the tension.
SPEAKER_01Like we're just gonna say to face the tension.
SPEAKER_00We just want a nope, this is what it is, and that's it. And like it's not like that because we're human, we're i if we were just robots, like yeah, there's a there's a there's a data plug-in, and like that's it, but we are human and we have relationships and feelings, and and there's history and and wounds, and we're so complicated that like the the way that this manifests in our relationship, the way that we got to where it's manifesting the way this way is gonna be a very different journey that you're gonna take. Um and and I don't so we can't just give you a blanket like this is when you need to listen, this is when you don't need to listen. Like it you need to both really. Subject yourselves to God and His will and let Him grow and build and then from there you'll be more ready to be subject to one another.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, and looking for the root of where does that distrust come from? Because we talk a lot about trust, but like the opposite is distrust. And where does that distrust come from? Is it in your own self? Is it in the life of your spouse? Is it is it in trusting or distrusting God's plan for marriage? Like maybe that's part you have to find where that distrust is and address it before just blindly yay or naying this whole concept. Um I did want to add, this is going back to like the beginning of the conversation, but um to learn leadership skills. Maybe this is you have all these good desires like Renzo did when he first got married, and um, and it's it's both of us, I'm teasing you, but um yeah, just like leadership skills. How can I how can I take the stuff I have inside and actually like live it? Um Dare to Lead by Brene Brown was a great, another great book that I had read. And that book comes with like a workbook and resources and things. And I don't know if there's maybe there's a way to kind of transform it and to do that as a couple and like work through that together and make it some sort of activity. But that book gave a lot of good language, it gave a lot of good strategies, it gave a lot of good little practical things that you can try to implement in your life and then see how that goes. Um, but to really take that idea of leadership and see it less as a um who gets to tell who what to do, but more of a uh lived embodiment.
SPEAKER_00And I my recommendation for leadership, and this is a recent um pickup of mine, but I but I think it was very good and I think it's worth listening to a few times. Um but Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink and Leaf Babin. Um I listened to it on Audible because I sitting and reading is I just don't have as much time as I wish I did. Um but that like extreme ownership at the the the gist of it is that like if you're a leader, you need to own everything. And I think that's a really good way of going about in marriage. Um, but then he has a lot of good, like little insights into leadership that goes beyond just like the idea of like you own everything. Like, yes, you uh that's like the foundation of you own everything, but um a lot of good practical stuff that I think again like we've if we have not been taught leadership skills um we it's very easy to blame, it's very easy to pass the buck and be like, oh, it's because of her and because of this and because of that, um, and kind of play victim as much as we like we we would pretend that we get upset that people play victim, but then we do that in our own marriage because it nothing's our fault. Like there's there's a lot of good things in here from Jocko. So I I would recommend that as well.
SPEAKER_01Yep. And last but not least, reading the fullness of Ephesians so that you can really get a full picture of what what does the Christian life lived look like externally and then spiritually.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So thank you for being here. Um if you like the episode, go ahead and leave us a review and rate us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Apple, you Apple users, you've kind of slowed down a little bit. Um, we we need a few more reviews. We gotta we gotta catch up to Spotify. Um, and if you want to continue to support our apostolate and the work that we're doing, um, go ahead and visit patreon.com slash to become family to support us. Um, and yeah, as always, we are so happy you're here, and we will see you at the next episode.