Why Husbands Need To Share the Mental Load

In todays episode, we sit down and demystify “mental load”. We share about Renzo’s experience struggling to accept the concept, and share how husbands can help lighten their wives loads through Christ’s example. We’re so happy you’re here with us, let’s jump in!

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SPEAKER_00 0:04

You're listening to Pre-Cana with the Pope, a podcast aimed at restoring confidence in marriage and family life.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

Hey there everyone, this is Monica, and welcome to episode 56 of Pre-Cana with the Pope. In today's episode, we talk about the mental load that women carry. Together we discuss the differences and complementarity of men and women, how it can be a struggle to understand and admire those differences, and share some practical tips for harmony in the home. We're so happy you're here with us. Let's jump in.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

I'm ready. I'm here. So tell me, in all honesty, in this moment, what are you thinking about?

SPEAKER_03 1:02

I am thinking about small groups for winter retreat. I am thinking about what things I need to pack for the kids while we're gone. I'm thinking about what if my what if I have an episode while we're there. Um on retreat. I'm thinking about what I'm making for breakfast tomorrow because I want to sleep in. Because we're staying up late recording. I am thinking about I think that's about it right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

For now.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

And the and the pressure of making sure I answered correctly. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Now Did I win?

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Do I get an A?

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Well what no, my second question is what's wrong with you? No, I'm kidding. Okay, because I think you did a great job illustrating the the theme of the episode for today. Um Because one thing I didn't realize was real. And I thought this was I thought this was fake. I thought this was ju you just being uh unfortunately different than me. Um was that you and you told me about this once about the idea of mental load. Um and the way I understand it in my mind is just that we just think differently. So like if you were to ask me, oh ask me, do it, do it.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

What are you thinking about in this moment? I think your hair looks nice.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

I like it's not brushed.

SPEAKER_04 2:32

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

That's it.

SPEAKER_04 2:34

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

That's it. I'm so in the moment.

SPEAKER_04 2:36

So nice.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Now I'm cheating because I have AHD. So this moment is all that exists. Anyone who's not in my peripheral vision right now, it doesn't even exist. Sorry, people. There's only my wife. So that's a nice thing. For marriage, it's great. Um, it's not so good for marriage though when there's other things that are piling up. So, like you said, packing for the kids. I was like, Oh yeah, I should pack. I'm piling for yourself. Yes, for myself. For myself. Not the children. I don't have to think about that.

SPEAKER_04 3:08

It's like like Sunday mornings getting ready for mass. It's Renzo wakes up, Renzo works out, Renzo takes a shower, Renzo gets stressed, and then is like, what do you need me to do?

SPEAKER_01 3:19

At least I'm asking the question, and I know that there's things I need to do.

SPEAKER_04 3:24

And then Monica gets up, makes breakfast for everyone, takes a shower, probably has a kid or two come at least come into the bathroom, if not into the shower.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Okay, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

We're painting a very false portrait. Renzo wakes up at five to exercise, turns the TV on for the kids, makes sure the kids don't wake mommy up. You guys gotta sit here and be quiet. Mommy gets to sleep. So there's things that I'm doing. How I think what we need to acknowledge is that that came out of routine and not from forethought. So like that's out of routine of like that's how you do mornings. Yes, that's how I do mornings. So it's not like I wake up and I'm just like, whatever happens around the house happens until I'm done working out. But like I have a thing of like the kids know you can't bother mommy until this time. So there is, I do try to take some of that off.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

Fair.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Yes. Okay. Thank you. Accurately portray me. Paint me like one of your French girls, please.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

But do it well.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

Paint it accurately. Um, but I'm laugh, I'm chuckling in my head with your comment about the one time I told you about mental load, and you thought it was a silly turn.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

The 100th time.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

The 100th time. Thank you. Because I I shared a few times and then I shared like a few blog posts or a few memes or a few like various different things to show it wasn't just Monica that made the moment. Yes, that's true. Um, that it wasn't just a thing that Monica felt, other people felt it too.

SPEAKER_00 4:54

And so let's so let's define for for the audience. I like that you're twirling her hair. You're flirting with me. She likes she likes that I'm acknowledging her pain. Step one to seduction. Acknowledge that I cause you pain. Don't apologize for it. Justify it. It's one of those great characteristics of mine in all husbands. I don't apologize. I explain why I did a thing. Sorry, before we dive too deep.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Can you explain people feel seen by these episodes? I see you. I don't change, but I see you.

SPEAKER_04 5:34

I see. I see. I see.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

That was a lot of golf.

SPEAKER_04 5:43

It was. I see. I acknowledge. I explain why you're wrong and why I'm right. I don't do that anymore. Anymore. Now I just explain why I did the thing I did. No, now so that you know why I did the thing that I did.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Now I I think that learning that I have ADHD changes the You're still flirting with me.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Like that you're just trolling your hair still.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

I have to put it back up into the high button. No, no, leave it. So then stop calling me out.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

No, but then I know that I'm saying good things. Um no, I think one of the nice things about knowing that I have ADHD is that you realize like a lot of the my initial like gut reaction to things isn't actually how I feel, but it's like a either it's like a self, self-um preservation or self-protection. Yeah. Of like, I don't want to be criticized, you're like, I don't want to take this too deeply. Um it's not really my fault. I didn't mean to act this way. This is what I was thinking. I want you to understand how I was thinking.

SPEAKER_03 6:42

Yeah, you're an external processor too. So you're kind of explaining to yourself and to me why you did what you did. And then hopefully by the end of that, you're like, oh, and that's why that was the wrong choice.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

So let's let but let's backtrack a ton now. So what is what do you mean by mental load? Wait, should we explain first? Okay, so first, I think this is a better place to start. Six minutes in this is a better place to start. I think it's better uh is that we need to acknowledge that that for the most part, in like a very general sense, men and women think differently. No, no, but I think it's necessary to bring up because and I do, and I think it's hard. You make a statement like that, and then like you're asked to quantify it. Well, like how do men and women think differently? And then you can be like, well, no, I think that way too.

SPEAKER_04 7:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

You're an idiot. No, I think I think that that's why I said generally, for most things, um, and this is and I I like the way Jordan Pearson puts it, and I know that he's like super controversial now, but like the way he puts it is that um, like if you take a majority of guys and a majority of majority of men, a majority of men and a majority of women, most men care about things, and most women care about people. And that's why like they gravitate towards careers that care more about things than they care about people. I know that I'm one of the guys that kind of like falls in the middle because I care about people as much as things. I do still like things. Like I was super happy I got a bow.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

Yes, for your birthday.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

I got a compound bow for my birthday, super happy. Stop my entire birthday celebration just so I can like put it together. Put it together and try it out. Yeah, so I like things too, but um, but I I was drawn more to social work and and teaching at one point. Like I I like working with kids that we're doing youth ministry, like there's there's a more people um oriented.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

You're willing to sit down and do a podcast.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Yeah, yeah, because I care about the people. Yes, not because of the millions we're making, but no, because I care about the people. So, but at the same time, like I do know that I fall into the caring about things more often, like how things work, how or like you know, generally. Um, and I do know that you, and I think more women generally care about people, and um, you see a lot of that that I feminine genius in in our in our daughter who is just a very good ter caretaker. Um unfortunately that seems sometimes to be seen as a negative thing, like, oh, you just care for people. Um, but that's a to me, that's a big deal. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

You digress.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

I digress. So I think but men and women think differently, and I think because of that within the relationships, um, we could both look at something and see it from a completely different perspective. And I don't think that's acknowledged enough anymore because there's such a big push for everything to be equal.

SPEAKER_03 9:23

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

That like, oh, you know, we're both on the same playing field, but like regardless, we see through very different lenses, not just from life experience, but just because I'm a man, you're a woman, we see how to go about this differently.

SPEAKER_03 9:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

And that's why you have like the age-roll discussion of like when when s your wife is coming to you with a problem, she wants you to listen, not to fix it. As much as I could say that, I still try to fix it, but and I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 9:47

Yeah, because you see the you often see the problem first and then the person second, and the wife is coming asking you to see her first and then the problem second.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Which would be so wrong to do in an emergency. We need to fix the problem or we die.

SPEAKER_03 10:04

That's true in emergencies. Not everything in life. You're welcome for keeping you safe preemptively. From all of your fears and anxieties and stresses and dishes.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

What can I shoot with my bow? Um, so that's one of the I am armed and ready. Yes. So that's one of the the fact that we see things differently, I think, then leads to the idea of mental load because the way that we experience the house and life is just so different. Even from when I was a stay-at-home dad to when you being a stay-at-home parent, it's still very different. Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

Yeah, well, and I think I think too sorry, to go back to these, like the way we want to explain these things away, or to try to, like you said before, level the playing field. There are times when those like unique differences are helpful, and then there's also times where they're very complementary.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Like making babies.

SPEAKER_03 11:06

Yes, that is true. Um, so that's this like this conversation is not to discount those times where our um our differences kind of come together and make a like a good product, like working together and cooperating and and doing doing this these differences well, or for like for us to step into each other's shoes and think a little bit differently. Those are good too. But yeah, so mental load. Mental load is the concept of or the idea that women have just a lot going on in their brains all the time, and they're trying to keep all the things organized because they're not just thinking about themselves, but they are thinking about the needs of everybody in their family, including their husband or including their jobs and their coworkers, or um, they just are carrying more in their brains.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Yeah, and I feel like that's a I don't I don't like that the way that's worded. I don't know, that's like the official, what's the official definition of it?

SPEAKER_03 12:13

It's not that's my you put me on the spot and that's what I came up with. I tried my best. You did it.

SPEAKER_04 12:18

Thank you very much. Something to think about later. Let's try experimental load. Let's try to well then compliment first and then criticize.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

You did a great job.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

Welcome to this episode of Mental Load, where Monica poorly defines it. Control your word. And Renzo and Renzo corrects her because he knows better what a mental load is.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Because no, I okay, I should have worded that better. I think clearly.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

No, I think that definition was fine. However, I don't think that the issue is you have a lot of things going on in your head. Because I feel like a lot of husbands can be like, well, I'm thinking about a lot too. But more of like, you have everyone else's needs on, not just on your mind, but like you're literally carrying everyone else's needs, including your husband's needs. So you have your all your kids' needs, you know, and that does not just like, oh, what are they eating today, but like the entire day and all the things they need, so all their clothes, their clothes, their laundry, everything. So like I think the important part that you emphasize is like that you have you have to worry about their needs.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

Sorry, this is just this is a silly example, but you found out that you were gonna get a bow for your birthday. So you started looking up which bow you wanted and where you wanted to get it from and things like that. And I was at a baby shower. I was at a baby shower with Gianna. So you were home with the boys and you were looking now, you're you're looking up all the, you know, all the things so that you could pick the right one, and you became very excited and hyper focused on Bo.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Wait, wait, we became excited, me and the boys. The boys also got lost on hunting videos for a while.

SPEAKER_03 14:09

That the boys didn't eat lunch that it was like 3 30, and you're coming home.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

I was like, oh no. You called me, you called me.

SPEAKER_04 14:19

Um about what time will you be coming home? Said I'm leaving soon. Okay, we haven't eaten yet. Okay. Great.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

No one said they're hungry. They were just grabbing chips and whatever just to come watch what we were watching.

SPEAKER_04 14:35

It's the two-year-old's fault for not telling you we need a lunch.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

We we had an eight-year-old and he also didn't say he was very happy watching videos with me.

SPEAKER_04 14:43

So it's just very, very clear that you put five boys in a house and no needs are met, but everyone's really excited about a thing.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

But we're masters at hungry. It was that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

That's such a good analogy.

SPEAKER_04 15:03

There's a little example.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

That's a great example. But that's and I think that's so. But wait, back to my my correction of the definition.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

Please, please redefine.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

No, I don't want to redefine it. I just mean I just think enhance my definition. I just think you should emphasize that it's not just you thinking about things because like clearly I'm thinking about things all the time too. And I think that could be a lot of pushback from husbands of like. And I think, and I remember that I was that one of my pushbacks too. You'd be like, Well, I have all this thing to think about. I'm like, I have all this other stuff to think about, like the three books I haven't written yet. Why why is the sky blue? Like all these different things I'm thinking about. And I think that you get that like a tit for tat with with your spouse if you bring that up of like, I have a mental load of things and be like, Well, I have work, I have whatever else, like things going on, and stresses, like I have mental load too, and like and it's not the same, it's not comparable because a lot of the times, the at least in my experience, like the load from my own personal experience, the load for men are things that are external to them, and I don't think the needs of the kids are external to you, if that makes sense. You you like own them and like they're it's part of you, whereas like it's my work. Granted, a lot of guys can define themselves with other work, but it's something that I can leave, yeah, and it's just put there. Well, like if it's a kid that, oh, I need to change his diaper, but like I'm not I'm not as viscerally moved by it as I think you are.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

Yeah, it's a little bit more like tasks that you have to keep track of rather than like you said, needs that need to be met of others that feel so integral to to my life.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Yes, yeah, because like being I know being being a mom changed you.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

Yeah, that like if I can't address those needs or meet those needs, then that is a reflection on my being. Yes. Versus Yes. I I dropped the ball on that.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

And not like a not a reflection on like your worthiness of a being, but more like this is what I was made to do. And there's there's just a deeper, there's just a deeper yearning in you to meet these needs for these people that are in your family. Whereas like I think the the only thing that I think compares to for for at least for me is that like if I wasn't able to protect you guys.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Like it's just there's like a deep, at least in me, and like I want to not because that's that's not why I got a bow, but like there's this desire to to protect and provide, and I think like that has nothing to do with like I don't know, like doing the laundry. Like it just it doesn't, it doesn't but to you, like you you connect it and you make it. And I and you're not the only mom that I've yeah experienced that with who've said to me, like, no, these things need to get done. Like, no, no one's gonna do them. I need to do them. And that's the the mental load that you carry that I don't see, and most husbands don't see in their wives every day, but like it's it's very obvious once I once I I think it happened yesterday. I was sick for the last day and a half, I wasn't sick for that long. To me, it felt like years, but it was that's the time blindness for MDHD. But I I was sick for only for a day and a half, and the the house still functioned. Um, when I tried helping with things, you kicked me out because I was not being helpful. Um, and then I I woke up this morning and went to get my clothes, and I was like, wow, she folded all of my laundry, like you folded everything. And and like I know the day was hard because now it one of our kids was sick and I was sick, and you know, you're the stress of like, are people gonna get sick? And you still got everything done in the house that needed to get done. And just seeing that, like, and on top of that, and you folded my laundry. Like, you didn't have to, you could have just put it on a basket. He's sick, just you know, he'll do it later, whatever. We can take care of a different day. Um, but you went through you took the time to do it, and I was just and that just really hit me of like you just you just think of everything. And it may not, you may not feel like that, but like to me, it's like wow, you think of all the little things that need to be done and you do them, and that just seems so amazing to me. But I also don't recognize the flip side of that is like is crippling anxiety of all the things I need to be doing.

SPEAKER_03 18:54

Yeah, but like because you say that and I'm just like, oh, but there were so many things I didn't do yesterday that I felt like needed to be done. So even like that, I don't find relief in like checking that off the I guess I do a little bit, but there still feels like a mental load. Like there still feels like things I'm carrying that need to be addressed for my family.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Yeah. So I believe that there's a lot of well-meaning husbands who all right who don't who don't argue this idea of mental load, or maybe don't argue it as much as they used to, and they're like, all right, my wife needs help. Um I don't want to be, you know, I don't want to just add to her mental load. So what are ways that I, you can use me as an example. I'm a big U-turn. Um, what are ways that I have tried to help with your mental load, but have actually added to your mental load?

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Um I think one of the biggest and this probably I think one of the things that you've tried to do to help ease the mental load and it's backfired and it's been so confusing, and we've argued about it, is asking, what can I do to help?

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Can you give a more precise example?

SPEAKER_03 20:15

Well, I mean, even the example of Sunday mornings getting ready for mass, getting ready for the day, and you'll see that things are chaotic and you'll say, What can I do to help? And it's frustrating because it kind of takes me out of the rhythm I'm already in, and it makes me have to like explain to you what you can do to help. And then there's inevitably the questions of okay, where is that or how about that, or what you know, like needing more direction, so it's just easier for me to do it because I was already in the mode, and to like stop and explain to you what I need done and how to do it and where the things are is not helpful.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

So I remember this was something I didn't fully understand or I guess appreciate until like I remember you saying this to me often. And so this there's gonna be a balance, there's a balance of this, so there's gonna be a a give and take. But I remember I would I would usually I would end up asking in the middle of like obvious chaos of like what what can I do? And and it was I would remember early on in our marriage, I would start asking when it was obvious to me you were frustrated with the situation. So I think I think there's steps to improvement. I think that yes, like we us husbands can make it worse by asking what can we do to help? Or you know, what do you need me to do? And I know that adds to the mental load. But I feel like let's at least appreciate that there's improvement of like I could be asking when the house is burning. I could also be asking when, like, oh, dinner's coming up soon, like, how can I help you? I can ask you in the morning, like. Okay, how can I help with dinner today? Yes. So there's levels. Granted, each each is still not what ought to be done. But like I think there's progression to that. And I think um recognizing, like, all right, where is your spouse at? To then to start addressing this. Like, are you at the point where you're asking in the moment when things are obviously like you missed the boat here?

SPEAKER_03 22:20

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

I think that's what made it so much worse, is that I would ask when like it's kind of after the fact.

SPEAKER_03 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Things have already started breaking down. What are you even trying to help with?

SPEAKER_03 22:30

Yeah. Yeah. I think I think that's well, and I think that's exactly what the mental load it I think that embodies what the mental load is, is it's this anticipatory addressing of needs. Like I know that my family is going to need these things. Um, so I'm already working on addressing them and trying to prepare to address them before I need to address them, or trying to schedule when the best time to do that so that I could meet as many needs as possible. Um and so I think yeah, asking in the moment is is not addressing the mental load because it's this thing that I'm carrying in in preparation for all the things I need to do.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

So and now what would and this is we obviously are still working on this in our marriage. Um but what like how would you think so like say this is a separate couple from us, like what would you say, what would your advice be on how to better address that? So it's like say a husband does wanna like obviously I think I think all husbands want to help. I think the the difficulty comes in trying to convince the husband that that well one unfortunately is convincing the husband that he needs to be helping his wife, and it's not just like uh responsibilities are cut down in the middle of like my responsibilities are outside the home, yours are inside the home, and that's that. Like there's there's overlap, there's there's it's our family, it's our home, it's not just you know split up this way. I think once you get past that hurdle, most husbands do want to help their wives, and they don't want them just silently uh miserable because they have so many things on their plate, but they also don't know how to go about like how do I know a need that I don't even know is a need? Because like it's not I don't think I think in the same way that to me it seems obvious like there's things that I'm in in tune with that to me seem obvious that to you were like I didn't even think of that, and I think I don't know if it's as appreciated that wives that the we don't that like a husband may not even know that that's a need, and you might be like, Well of course, like feeding the kids at before three o'clock is a need. Like, yes, I know it's a need, but like it wasn't really a need. No one said they're hungry, so they're fine. Does that make sense? Like it's not it, it's it maybe that's a silly example, but like I think there's things that you think I would obviously know that like I don't, and I need to ask, like, what's a need that I'm not seeing?

SPEAKER_03 25:04

Does that make sense? I think I think again that kind of goes into the anticipatory versus the now and not now. Like it's not a need right in this moment, so I don't need to think about it because no one needs that. Um whereas I think women try to predict when those needs will arise so that they're prepared to address them, maybe even before they become a need.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Um so then how do I how do I get there so that I know it's basically like how do I know how do I how do I get to a point that I can anticipate your needs to the degree that you anticipate everyone else's needs? And sometimes my anticipating your needs would be anticipating other people's needs. Does that make sense? Like, how do I get to that point without having to ask you? Or do I have to start asking you so that I can learn you?

SPEAKER_03 25:55

Well, I think it's definitely something that needs to be communicated about and at like questions asked and things. I think not in the moment is really important. So times like this in the evening, after the kids are asleep, and there's not distractions, there's not needs that are currently in the process of being met, that we can we can talk about them. What are some of the needs that you met today, and how can I start to become attuned to helping you and addressing them and being the one that can can fill those needs or meet those needs as well? Um I think a lot of it also comes on trying to understand and get on at least like understand would be the first and then getting on the same page would be the second of like the same goals that you have for your day, for your kids like for the different areas of your kids' lives, for the different areas of your lives. Like, are we on the same page for like what we want out of this thing? And then and then kind of like planning like how can we go about achieving that goal, like getting to that that goal.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

That's it, that's interesting. I don't that's interesting. I think that depends, like the way you articulated that may depend on maybe the temperament of the husband, the personality type, the the way, you know, have they listened. Because like I don't think that we've gotten to the point that we are in our marriage by doing that. Because like I because I think at least in my my ability to ignore you, like ignore your needs, it's very great. So like if we laid out like the goals, like we're how we're gonna get this, I'm like, alright, so you do this, I do that. Right? And I think there's more like I needed to, and this is again for my personal experience, I really needed to s to like to accept that there's things that I could not just pick up on. Because I think I I I was very um I think I assumed I had a better ability of picking up on your needs because of my work with other people, and and like I could just pick up on on things. Like I I I have a sense of like, you know, you people walk in a room like who's upset, who's not upset, like why you know I may not know the reason why, but I can kind of pick up on things like that. And I would I would assume that I could pick up on oh wait when Monica needs something, I'll know it. And I I didn't in our marriage, and that was very hard for me to understand of like I I can't just pick up on this. So like if you if we even laid and set out goals of like, you know, this today I don't want to be overwhelmed with the kids' stuff, like I would then assume like alright, I'm gonna be able to pick up on when she's gonna, you know, what things are gonna get overwhelmed, and like, oh no, she seems happy, she seems fine. And I know that and that may have been a learned thing for now as young, but like you, if you don't, you don't always seem stressed, even though inside you are super stressed. Does that make sense? Or because you're thinking of a lot of things. So like I had to learn that like um I can't wait for you to start seeming like things are overwhelming for me to finally be like, oh, now there's a need. Right? I needed to learn to not I don't know if I'm explaining it right, but like, oh, maybe you're not understanding because you're not twirling your hair, but like do you understand what I mean though? Like I had to learn to like so like for me, I have to try to do things and not expect there to be an affirmation afterwards because you needed it to be done. Right? Which is a very different thing.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Yeah, because like it's I think you're kind of changing subjects a little bit, but or shifting a little bit, but I would agree that that was a big conflict that we had.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

The way you work in in the home is you don't get a thank you for anything that you do for most of the things. I try to thank you in front of the kids so the kids realize like mommy folded all your clothes for you, mommy did this for you know, she does all these things for you that you don't even get to see. Um, and I think for a lot of the work that I do, like I get a thank you right after I get like there's some out of information, whether it be for work, like I get a you know, good job email, uh, you know, you get you get promotions, you get things where you get immediate feedback. And a lot of the work that you need me to do is work that is that behind the scenes stuff that you don't need to acknowledge me every time I do it. But like, but I'm doing it and it's helpful to you, but you're not gonna give me feedback. I think the assumption is there that like if I anticipate your needs, you're gonna thank me because I'm anticipating your needs. But the whole point is that you're anticipating so that I don't get to the point that I need you to do this.

SPEAKER_02 30:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

So like when I make the bed in the mornings, when I remember to make the bed in the mornings, like you you've come to the point that you thank me for it, but like the ideal is that like I just make the bed and then you don't have to think about it. And it's not like a Renzo, thank you, because now that's another thing you have to think about, but like I have to thank him now because he's not gonna remember, he's not gonna feel like I like he did a good job today. He needs to feel good about himself. But the whole point of low uh lowering your mental load or unloading your mental load is is for me to do jobs that will help you be able to do your day without being overwhelmed and not needing like a I know I don't need an attaboy for it.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

Yeah, I definitely remember that being a conflict for us because you would you would try to do something and then I might not recognize it or I might not thank you for it, I might not um like yeah, give like point you in the direction of like, yeah, that's a that's exactly what I was looking for. That was helpful. Um, and so sometimes you would get frustrated because you wanted that affirmation to know that you were doing the right thing, but really it was the like yes, that's that's the thing that needs to get done that I've been doing that no one really knew I was doing until now. So now it's done. Excellent, you know?

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Yeah, because I I've seen like reels and and memes or whatever of like of husbands wanting like attaboys for loading the dishwasher or for doing a load of laundry and like and wives getting upset, like you why does a husband want praise after that? And I don't think they necessarily want praise. They want to make sure that they're like it's not even like they want praise from the world, like they want to make sure that they're meeting your needs in in in the way that like I want to meet your needs, I don't pick up on this as easy as you do. Is this what you want? And not like a tell me I'm a good boy because I want to be a good husband and have sex later. Like, no, I want to know I'm meeting your needs so that this is what you want, I'll make sure I keep doing it. Yeah, and and and that's and I feel and that was a big struggle because like I wanted to do the things, but then it became like a now I have to remember to thank Renzo every time or else he's not gonna do it. And like that just became another mental thing. Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Or like hint at this is you know, this is the thing that you've been doing, but you haven't done it yet. Can you please do it? Yeah, because it's helpful. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

So and I think a big um one big thing that helped us was that we did, I think this is the five live languages thing that we we we made two lists of 15. You well, you I don't even remember what my list was, but 15 things that that I do I can do to make you feel loved. Um, I don't remember what that list was, but making coffee in pots and pans was two of them that keep happening. I don't know what the other 13 were. We try to redo that list. But I remember that list was made, and I was like, oh, and that just that was just like a I remember the the epiphany I felt like we had because you gave me that list and I was like, oh, I can do this and it makes you feel loved. And that was like the preemptive affirmation. Like I didn't need you to tell after I did the popcorn, I don't care about being thanked. Like it's not like I want to be thanked after I do a job, I'd rather not be acknowledged for it. It was more of I want to know that I'm doing right by you.

SPEAKER_03 33:28

Yeah. Yeah. So that's a great, that's a great tip because I feel like that really, that really helped us both. Um, because you felt more secure in trying to do. I think that was part of it too. You're like, I'm just afraid to try and not do the right thing because you're not giving me feedback here. So I think that was helpful having that like written down list of things that that you can do. Because one, if you felt like it's chaotic or the day is happening and I'm not really sure where to put myself, you like went back to that list and picked something on the list and did it. Um, but also that was the affirmation that we were seeking because it yes, this is one of her top priority things that that help her feel loved and it helps the day keep going. It helps, um, it helps ease the mental load. Um, I I'm laughing because you mentioned making the bed and um and again, it's just it's like how men and women see things differently, or maybe it's just you and me, but I think it applies more generally, like um Jordan Peterson was saying. Um but like it's not just about the task of making the bed, and I think that like for guys, it's like it it gets made or it doesn't, it's not a big deal. But for me, it's just like then the the feeling of the room is just less chaotic. Like I can walk into my bedroom and it feels more peaceful, and I don't feel like it's so disheveled like the rest of my life. Like I can walk into my room and it feels nice to come in here because it's put together. Um, and then like pots and pans, you know, it seems it sounds funny, but those are the dishes that take the longest because you have to scrub, so you have to plan to stand at the sink longer, and then the kids are gonna start interrupting halfway through the pots and pans, and then you're like, frick, I didn't finish the pots and pans, and you get so frustrated. So it's it's more layered than like a simple task, in my mind at least. Um, so it's just funny that you brought up those two things. So I guess I just wanted to illuminate why that's a mental load versus a task on a list, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Yeah, and I I I think it's a mental load because of it, could just be like differences in how we perceive situations. I still I still feel like those are tasks. As much as like you're like, well, like, and I don't yeah, I don't I don't think it's I don't like that it bothers you that much. Like, does that make sense? Like, I'm like, no, it's just a task. So like, but instead of trying to convince you, because I spent most of the early parts of our marriage trying to convince you that like you shouldn't be this upset about this. This isn't this isn't that big of a deal.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

This is silly.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

No, you don't you don't need what are you taught to leave them? They're fine. We have more pots, we just keep throwing them out, right? Like I so, but instead of getting into that, right? And to instead of like trying to get into um and I I think John Delaney just posted something about that. Like, we can't like we are not the arbiters of our wives healing. Like I and because I'm not trying to like in all of our things, like there's there's some rooted disorder of of things, of feeling like whatever, but like fine, but right now, in the middle of washing my pots and pans, I don't need you to talk to me about how Jesus wants to heal my heart. Like I need I need these pots and pans clean. Yes, right, and like that's that's something of of he was just like we just need how can I love you right now? This is how I can love you. Okay. Like later on, we can talk about where I get my self-worth from and how you know how how good of a mom I actually am. Like, fine. But like in the middle, I just can you just make the bed, please? Like, I and there's there's just layers to how we do this that I in the first years of marriage didn't have the like the the the emotional or spiritual vocabulary to like be able to engage with you, right? Because I always I would put like, oh no, I need we need to deal with this big thing, like these little things don't matter. But to you was like, okay, but the house is still we had a great talk, but now the house is still messy.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

And I remember you like using those words, like, okay, I'm glad we talked about all these things, but like this still like I still can't make macaroni tomorrow because the pots are still dirty. Yeah, so like these still needs to be these things still need to get done, and that that was like that was a struggle.

SPEAKER_03 37:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

But I think that, and I guess I want to encourage spouses to continue to have those conversations because it especially if husbands are like me who are very stubborn and just think that this thing is an illusion or a sign of like mental instability or mental weakness, spiritual immaturity. Like, no, these are all it's a real thing and fine. Like there could be different routes to it that need may or may not need to be addressed, but it it all stems from like the genius of what is a woman and how like just how how much you can care for people, right? And like that's that's it, and so like we can argue that it may be taken too far in what direction, and that's fine, but like it's it's not it shouldn't be seen as like a a negative thing from a man's perspective, like no, that's a gift that your wife has. So, how can you support her so that she can use that gift and not let it become a thing that goes over you know in all these different directions, right?

SPEAKER_03 38:37

So, like, how can you best love her to be able to so that gift can be honed in where where it should be, yeah, yeah, to care for the family well.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Now, one thing I think you did do that helped in in healing in in that healing process of me being able to help you was you learn to let go. Because that I think that's one of the the things, one of the last things in terms of mental load is that if I am gonna be helping meet your needs, like there's gonna be things that I do that are done. Done differently than I would do it. No, they could be done wrong too. Different differently, sometimes correctly, but other times completely incorrectly, like when I made just like making lunch late, but just even like I don't know, can you you I'm sure you can think of something that's just I just do very differently than you do, but um, and that you just did not like me doing because it just I'd rather just do this myself because whatever reason.

SPEAKER_03 39:31

Yeah, well, because the way you do it stresses me out.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

I remember that. I remember that for like I don't know if it was washing pots and pans, but I remember like you would I would try to initiate like all right, I'm gonna help you with this, and then you would stand next to me and watch me do it. Yeah, and be like, no, you can't do it like that.

SPEAKER_03 39:45

Loading the dishwasher. You do it wrong, you could do it. But was it loading the dishwasher?

SPEAKER_00 39:50

I don't know if it was there's a lot of things that I think you do wrong. Just leave it now. I remember in the old house, it was more in the old house. Like, I have I have distinct memories of being in the kitchen and trying to do things, and you'd be like, No, just let me do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:06

Well, like, so for example, when you make breakfast, you and I make breakfast very differently because I clean as I go.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Oh my grandma used to hate when I made things in the game.

SPEAKER_03 40:17

You make things in the kitchen and it's and you don't clean up until after you eat breakfast.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_03 40:24

And at like the whole point of making it is you eat it.

SPEAKER_04 40:26

So I sit there stressed because I see the mess in the kitchen, and I'm like, it's there, I see it. I can't relax.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Oh, so you sit in the wrong seat because you're nearly kissing in the kitchen. We'll switch, we'll switch from now on.

SPEAKER_03 40:39

No, but I think, but to your point, that's that is something I've learned to like let go of, though. It doesn't stress me out as much as it used to, but it used to bother me a lot. Like, how can we sit down and eat the meal you just made because there's such a mess in the kitchen right now that we have to do after we eat? Like, can't we just eat and then relax and be done? You know, and that's just we do things in a different order. Um, yeah, so I think part of that, yes, by letting somebody help carry the mental load, they're going to carry it the way that they carry it. And we can't be controlling over that. Either we carry it the way we want to and don't let anybody in or um share the mental load, but allow them to do it in their in their unique way.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

And I think the well, I I'd like that you you added that like I do things differently. I do think that some things I'm just like, I didn't do that right. Um and I think gently, so like say I I uh give me something I did wrong. Just so we can use it as an example.

SPEAKER_03 41:46

I can't think of one right now.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

So I'll do everything right. That's why.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

That's it. You've learned, you've reached your peak. There we are.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

This is it, 34.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

This is it.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

No, but so so say for example, like do it doing the making breakfast in the morning then. Um like if I say I did it and then I left the pots and pants till later in the day, like having a conversation at some other point and being like, hey, next time can you do it this way because all I want to do is get up and clean. Because I know that there were times, and I can I'm sure there were times where you got up during breakfast and went to clean because you're like, I it this needs to be cleaned right now. So I think having those kind like understanding that this isn't just a a one and done conversation, like, hey, I'm gonna take these mental load things off of you and I'm gonna do them, just accept however I do them. Like this is a process of being able to let go of things.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

Yeah. Well, and I think too, some like a conversation that we've had frequently is that if I give feedback, I think sometimes you want that to be like permanent feedback. And for me, it's a little bit more nuanced. Like you can't you can leave the kitchen a mess if we're home for the day.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

But if we're leaving all these extra rules you throw in there, yeah, I'll just imagine a sport like this.

SPEAKER_03 43:01

But if it's a Tuesday and the ref only has But if we're leaving for half the day, then you can't leave the mess that way because then like the cat is gonna eat some of the stuff and the thing is gonna get caked on, and you like there's there's more to it. And I and it's funny because I'm thinking about imagining myself listening to this, and I can just see myself nodding, like, yes, that's and I think like a lot of women will be like, Yeah, you can't leave it all day. Crazy people, you could leave it for the meal, you know. Yeah, no, and there's just there's been little things like that where like I and you're like I because sometimes I think you just want or you've expressed to me that you just want it, like I just want you to explain it so I can do it.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

I just want a hard and fast rule that is permanent. Yes, yes, we could leave the pots on Wednesdays and Thursdays because of actually okay, every Wednesday and Thursday, and you'd be like, No, but not this one, because this one is steel again. I think Oh, great.

SPEAKER_03 43:54

Oh, when to use the foil and not use foil on the pans. Yes, that's and spread.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

I think that might that might be an ADHD.

SPEAKER_03 44:03

No, I just loves to spray my cookie sheets.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Okay, but that's from growing up though. My grandma sprayed everything. Or my mom did. She also liked us ear pants. She destroyed her pants.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

So but I think again that kind of points to this mental load piece. That for like the women, it is not just this isolated event, but it's a part of a greater scheme of the day, the plan of the day, the way our family functions, the needs of, you know, what needs are going to come next. So in the like in the cooking of breakfast and how you clean it and when you clean it, it's kind of like, well, it's because of what's next. It's not because of breakfast right now. And you're like, but breakfast was great. And I will clean it later. And you're like, oh, but you didn't think about what's later. You know, so I think that I think that highlights the mental load piece that I think a lot of women think of.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

I think the way that's worded is interesting though, or important to not say like you didn't think about what's later, but more of true, truthfully, I did. It doesn't matter as much as right now. Because I think that's another, that's another piece that I think I think you've learned to you've learned to acknowledge and been like, you know that I I could be more in the moment. Again, granted, because I'm ADHD, and you've been like, I I want to be more present and not focus so much on the future and like what's coming next.

SPEAKER_03 45:23

So like because there's always things to do.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

Right, there's always gonna be things to do. And I think to an extent, I think I go too far in the pendulum in the other direction of like, yeah, whatever happens, happens. Um but I think you've also I I just think that's what's great about, and maybe this is unique to us and how we complement each other, is that that because of you, I can I can I have learned to anticipate things better. Granted, sun lunch was out the door of that um baby shower, but and because of me, like you're able to like, all right, that really doesn't need to be done. Um that really can wait. Yes, it really can wait. Right. Again, because of my of my stubborn insistence, and the same with you, like you were like, no, no, these things need to be done.

SPEAKER_03 46:05

Right. And it's not a thing again, it's not a kind of what you're saying when it's an ongoing conversation, it's also an ongoing process of working through these things because it's not like I just decided, oh, these things can wait and I'm fine with it. It had to happen first and me not be fine with it and sit and not being fine with it to come to the other side and realize everything actually turned out fine. Okay, I guess I can be fine with it. So you need to work on it, you know, and it's it's a process for the person carrying the mental load too to kind of recognize and realize I am carrying too much sometimes, or I'm I'm yeah, that I'm making a bigger deal out of some of these things than it needs to be. And I'm gonna practice unloading some of that and then observing that everything was fine, and then it eventually doesn't feel so heavy anymore.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Yeah. And I yeah, I think well that's what I that's the one thing I don't like about the mental load that you have is that that when thing like I'm okay, I I love the fact that you can anticipate every everybody's needs, but what what hurts me, and it really does hurt me, is that when something doesn't get done, that to me, from my perspective, was like so what? But to you it's it it is a huge dagger, and like that was should have gotten that done.

SPEAKER_03 47:32

Like what?

SPEAKER_00 47:32

I can't think of anything right now.

SPEAKER_03 47:34

You keep asking me for examples. Uh but it gets it hot seat, hot seat.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

No, well, uh it could just be something to me, but alright, so I don't mean to I don't want to make it sound seem so trivial because I know it's a big deal to you, but like if you didn't get the kids, I don't know, like say they didn't get this the right amount of food for breakfast before going to school or something, like you would feel like ah I didn't get the breakfast. And I'm like, so what? Have them eat something else. But like to you, like, no, like this is their breakfast every time. Like, I I this is what I this is what I planned to do last night, and like there weren't enough in the freezer, and I had to come up with a different thing. And to me, it was like, okay, great. But like to you, like, no, that's a big deal, right? And that just it and at first they used to just annoy me and be like, oh, she's just being silly. But like, I'm like, no, you feel it so differently, and like I'm like, uh. And and I don't, and that that's where I feel like it's uh that's something that needs to be eventually like over time, slowly through the grace of marriage brought to Jesus because like that's where it's like not too much. And the same way, like me ignoring all of my responsibilities and trying to be so in the moment that I never plan for anything, is something that, like, yeah, that's just me running from responsibility and being afraid of actually giving myself over to a greater cause because it causes me pain and requires discipline of me. Those things need to be brought to Jesus too. So, like, it's not that I'm not aware of my shortcomings, but um, so like that's where you see like the the the Mary and Martha like situation. Um so what I wanted to say this, because you said like you were talking about um like the the the like the amount that you're carrying and having to the load that you're carrying. Um one interesting thing that I that I found out is that the word glory in Hebrew um is translated to the it means weight. So like it's not like when you give glory to God, it's not just like that you give honor and and the good things to God, but the the word glory is translated in Hebrew to weight, and it's weight in a positive sense, like that you give him the weight of a thing, of all the positive things, like you give him the weight. So like when you do a good thing and you say, I do it for the glory of God, like you're giving him the weight of that success, like that's his. Um, and in the same way, like Jesus says in in the gospels, like he asks for us to give him give us his burden. So like God wants the weight of our good and our bad, like he wants all that weight. Um, and I think that connects to this because like as spouses, like we're supposed to be Christ to one another. So part of the weight that you're carrying, like it hurts me because I want to take that from you and I want to bear it too. Um, and instead of just like ridiculing you for it or looking at you and being like, oh, she's just being silly, or this is this is just the way she is, she worries about so much bel about all these other people and never thinks about herself to the to her detriment, whatever. Like, instead of just looking at it as like, oh, this is the way you are, like, I think that every husband should have within them this desire to like, I want to not just like heal you of I want to bear it with you.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

In the same way that like God wants to take the weight of our our things, our good and our bad, he wants to bear those for us. Like we're supposed to be that to one another, where we are bearing that for each other. So, like the mental load that you have, and I know you still have other things that you're you you hold, um, as your husband, I should be entering into into the house into the day and being like, How can I bear these things with you?

SPEAKER_02 50:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Um, and I think that's that's the goal of marriage is to be able to do those things, to be Christ to one another. So that and ultimately like to show you that it's possible to to do that so that you could then hand these over to God.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Um, because I like that you mentioned that earlier, like you you might have to sit in the like this is gonna be okay, and then hopefully that enhances your prayer life so you can give him more things that you're afraid to give because you're not sure if it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

Yeah. Well, I mean, and I think we've talked about it so many times, but marriage is this vulnerable place of bringing your whole self, including your mental load and the things that you piled onto your mental load that didn't need to be there in the first place. That's part of it, you know, and then the trial and error of trying to share that load and who does what to help, you know, balance the load and things like that. And um I do think though, I hope that we've shown in this in this conversation too, though, the beauty of the complementarity of spouses in marriage, too, that it's not just a sharing of the load, but it's also the learning from one another, the the areas that the other has strengths in so that we can admire them. Like, I think that it also changed when you reframed like oh she's complaining about a mental load, but like, wow, look at what she thinks of all the time and takes care of like folding your laundry while you're sick, right? And and reframing that a little bit, and then on the flip side, as the person who maybe carries more of the mental load, like admiring the freedom and the the um the present moment, and like I I admire that about my about my spouse, and that my family needs both of these things to succeed and to do well, and we learn from one another, but it is good for one of us to be better at something so that this can go well. Um I think I I don't think that's by accident either.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

No.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

I I like I that specifically made me think of times where you like would put down a lot laundry or whatever you were doing to come like do a dance party or something that we started in the in the family room. Um right. So like as much but the laundry still needs to be done. So like the ideal thing is that you stop so we can dance so that then we can all do laundry together. That's the dream.

SPEAKER_04 53:29

That's the dream.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Yeah. Thank you guys for being here for this conversation. We hope that it it was uh it was hopeful. Hopefully.

SPEAKER_04 53:39

I hope it was hopeful. Hopefully and helpful.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

Um and if this if this podcast, if this has been uh if this has just been a blessing to you in some way, please rate us, leave us a review on Apple and Spotify. We are now in year two. Um very excited to be continuing to grow and and be doing all the things we're doing. Um if you want to support us a little bit more, check us out on Patreon, patreon.com slash to become family, um, and support us there. Uh follow us on Instagram at to become family. Um always coming out with more ideas and content to expand on the podcast conversation there. And uh we will see you at the next episode.