Two Become Family Podcast: Conversations and Encouragement For Your Catholic Family
Welcome to the podcast where we echo the words of St. John Paul II and encourage families to "Believe in what you are!"
We are Renzo and Monica Ortega, we've been married 13 years, we have 5 kids, and our apostolate, Two Become Family, encourages Catholics who love the Church, love each other, and still feel like marriage and family life is harder than it's supposed to be.
Through our very candid, and sometimes uncomfortably vulnerable, conversations about sex, NFP, conflict, family life, we hope to spark conversations between you and your spouse leaving you with a little more joy and a lot more hope that you have what it takes to be a family.
Visit us at https://twobecomefamily.substack.com for more for your marriage
Two Become Family Podcast: Conversations and Encouragement For Your Catholic Family
Our NFP Story: Infertility, Surprise Pregnancy, and Indefinite Avoiding
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In today's episode we share our NFP story. We talk about how we first learned NFP, how each child brought about different challengs, and how we knew God was with us through all of it. Let's jump in!
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You're listening to Precana with the Pope, a podcast aimed at restoring confidence in marriage and family life.
SPEAKER_05Hey there everyone, this is Monica, and welcome to episode 77 of Precana with the Pope. In today's episode, we share our own personal NFP story. Together we talk about the joys of conceiving, the trials of infertility and poor health, and the emotional reaction we had with a surprise pregnancy. We're so happy you're here with us. Let's jump in.
SPEAKER_01We are back with another episode of Pre-Kana with the Pope. The last episode did really well, so we're gonna just say the same things. Exact same things, just keep it paid.
SPEAKER_05I just listened to last week.
SPEAKER_01But let me first, before we start, I want to give super props to whomever the last three people were that rated the episode. We have a hundred uh rates on Apple Podcasts. So just very cool. Um not all five-star, but it's fine.
SPEAKER_05The last three were five star. The last three were five star.
SPEAKER_01Whomever gave two stars, your finger slipped, please fix that. Um but so if you're listening, please go. We do look at the rates. So and it helps with the algorithm and all the stuff you hear when all the other people that have shows say things. But like if you like it and if you give us a five-star review, and if you could leave a comment or no, wait, give us a five-star rating and then give us a uh written review, uh, it just goes a long way to push the show out to other people. Um, and then we also read it, and we did not get an actual review since February. So we've gotten ratings, we have a hundred ratings, but we did not get a review since February. So if you've start just started listening, or if this is your first first podcast episode, you're listening from us, go ahead and say something nice. Leave five stars, say something nice, and then share it with five friends. That's it. That's it.
SPEAKER_04All those things, five friends, all the fives. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Um, but no, so we're happy you're here. What are we talking about today?
SPEAKER_05So we put out a poll on Instagram asking what to talk about because we have a few people that we know in real life that listen to our podcast and they were like, we want to hear this, we want to hear this. And I kind of wanted to check, is it just them that wants to hear this, or do other people want to hear about it? So we got a lot of votes for our NFP story.
SPEAKER_01Can you can you explain something before that? Maybe. Why are you wearing a Fairfield U Mom shirt?
SPEAKER_05Because one of our former youth teens who wasn't actually ever like officially in our youth group, but she came to our meetings all the time and stayed after to talk about stuff, turned nanny slash babysitter for a few years. Turned now, she's a core member at our youth group. She's she's being so brave and such a big girl, and she's going back to school to become a nurse in the accelerated nursing program. And she got me a Fairfield University mom shirt. You're so proud of her. I am. I changed right away. I was so glad.
SPEAKER_03I think it's cute.
SPEAKER_05So yeah, our girl, she's doing big things, and I'm so proud of her. And um, yeah, so I got a I got an official mom shirt.
SPEAKER_01That's cool. Um, and then we're so we're gonna talk about our other kids, our biological kids.
SPEAKER_05Our actual, yeah, and not our youth kids. But yeah, so we um yeah, we've been asked here and there, and we've shared our it's funny we were talking about. I don't know, I feel like we have, but we've shared our story, but I not here on this podcast. So we've been interviewed about our journey with NFP, and we've talked about like a man's perspective of NFP in a blog post, and we've kind of talked around like this. We've talked about what NFP is and why it's good for your marriage, and I'll link that I'll link that episode because I think it's important to because we're not gonna go I don't know where we're gonna go with this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, this is as off the cuff per usually. But um, in case we don't get into like the exact science and the reasons you should do NFP and this and that, I do know we have other episodes, so I'll try to link if this says NFP in the in the title, I'll link it. We may have talked about it in other episodes that it's not in the title, but I'll link it in the show notes so that you could listen to those as well.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so we're gonna kind of put all of our experiences of NFP, our personal experiences, into one episode, I guess. This is more of like a personal this is how this is how NFP has been a part of our marriage. Yeah. Even our life. Spoiler alert, we did NF like NFP. Just start talking, just start talking about it. I don't know where to go. All right. Well, yeah, so we learned we learned NFP actually before NFL.
SPEAKER_01Do we have to define it?
SPEAKER_05NFP.
SPEAKER_01If you don't know what NFP is, go listen to the other episodes first. There we go. And then come back.
SPEAKER_05That's it.
SPEAKER_01That's it. That's all you're getting.
SPEAKER_05Um so we learned NFP though before we were even married. So I was 19 or 20. I was trying to figure this out, right? Because we I had an appointment with Dr. Nulty.
SPEAKER_01Anyways, wait, so let's let's do some history diving. Okay. That's the thing. Um we called in the Danbury High School parking lot. Yeah. So that was after somebody's game. Okay. So they must have been playing.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So then do math. Do age math.
SPEAKER_05Do age math.
SPEAKER_01Like who was how old were you then?
SPEAKER_05When I could have been 19 or 20. Yeah. So, all right. So don't do it.
SPEAKER_00Fine. That doesn't work.
SPEAKER_05Okay. So I was working at the YMCA as a front desk person, taking membership cards and signing people up for swimming lessons, and I was reading a book in my like spare time at the front desk called Life Giving Love by Kimberly Han. And it's a very good book that people should read. Um, and in it there was a chapter about contraception and natural family planning. And it totally blew my mind. Like I knew you just saw that I wrote a note to Gianna.
SPEAKER_01I interrupted your story by giving her, like, oh, that's cute. Sorry. Um Monica must when did you write that? She wrote a note to Gianna here that says, hi G, baby, mommy and daddy love you. And I just looked at it and was like, oh, that's cute.
SPEAKER_05She just wrote it. She's got like her stack of art stuff here next to us. So I wrote her a little note for tomorrow. Back to the story. Okay, back to the story. So I'm I'm reading this book, and I had known that like the Catholic Church was against contraception, and that was like as far as I knew because my mom and my youth minister at the time said it was fine that I was on the pill because I was on it for health reasons. So I'm reading this book, um, and there were so many like studies cited in it and different like resources and all this stuff. And I was just in this one chapter. So it wasn't even a whole the whole book isn't about NFP and stuff, but it was like blowing my mind like why the Catholic Church is teaching against contraception from a science perspective and from a relational perspective. And I was just like, oh my goodness, this is all true. And then I went home and I threw away my package of pills, which is not what I would recommend to anybody who's listening to this podcast episode. Like, don't just go off the pill because you're on it for health reasons. That's not the recommendation. But so I was like, oh, let's just hope that all of my health issues like are all better now. Cause I've been on the pill for I'd probably been on the pill on and off for like four years at that point. Like a good amount of time.
SPEAKER_01From what I remember, I don't think you knew what your health issues were. No. Right?
SPEAKER_05Like you just knew they called it PCOS, but no one ever explained what that meant. So gosh, yeah. No, I just remember my first appointment with a gynecologist. No one warned me what was gonna happen, and then all of a sudden, like things are being examined, and you're like, who are you?
SPEAKER_04We have not we're not on a first name basis here. Like, what is happening? Anyways, it was awful. Anywho, things that won't be.
SPEAKER_05Women's health. Um, so yeah, so fast forward a few months, and I had I had a big like I had a a health scare or what have you. I had a cyst rupture, like a really big cyst rupture, and it was so painful. And you know, I went back to the gynecologist and they're like, well, the only thing that you can do is go on the pill. And I was like refusing. So I felt pretty desperate. Um, but in the back of the book, there was like resources that you could there were like phone numbers that you can call.
SPEAKER_01No, you could have been 19. Sorry, I'm still on that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because you would you would have moved home already. Yep. You could have done that anyway.
SPEAKER_05I know I did that math already. So I was 19 or 20, I'm not exactly sure. I know I was working for Danbury Public School. Like, I know I was working for the school system, anyways. It still is like, it could be either. Anyway, so in the back of the book, there was these like like resources that you can call and must have been 19.
SPEAKER_01Because we didn't meet our friends till later.
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_01So we met him after you called. Okay. Yeah. You're 19.
SPEAKER_05Okay. But you're a good detective.
SPEAKER_01Sherlock almost pre-Kana with Sherlock.
SPEAKER_03Keep going.
SPEAKER_01That's our next episode. Apparently, my role in this episode is just to interrupt. I'm doing great.
SPEAKER_05You normally do most of the talking.
SPEAKER_01I'm listening. Okay.
SPEAKER_05You're doing a great job listening. So I called. Basically, like through making several phone calls in the parking lot of our old high school, because we were there because one of our siblings had a game of some sort. Um, like, yeah, I just remember it being dark in the parking lot. Anyways, um, we get in touch with a local NFP instructor for our diocese, like one of the people listed for our diocese. And we talked to this couple, and they were so sweet. And like, they talked about how we were the youngest people they've ever like heard from, and how um they would pray for us. But the long story short, they gave us the phone number of a Naprotechnology doctor in New York City, Dr. Nolte. Now it's Dr. Nolti, but she wasn't married at the time, so she had a different name. So they gave me the contact, or they like they at least said, like, this is the name of the doctor, go find them on the internet or whatever. So we find we find this Napro technology. Napro stands for natural procreative technology. Um, doctor in New York City, and um, we went, you and I took a trip to New York City to meet this doctor to like learn about what to do because I didn't want to be on the pill. And um, she like did this whole thorough like exam and blood work and all these things, like ultrasounds. I was I was well let me pause.
SPEAKER_01Okay, because I think so. This is a 19-20-year-old who have no idea what they're doing.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and like such babies, and yeah, we're such babies.
SPEAKER_01I would have counseled. Like, can you imagine that some of our youth group teens I know like what are you guys doing? Yep, learn to do taxes, but we um like we went there, and so one thing I really liked about Dr. Nalty, number one, it was I was your boyfriend, so like I didn't go into the whole thing. Yeah, she explained everything to you first, and then later you asked that I be included. Yep.
SPEAKER_05Um, but so you weren't you were in the waiting room. I was in the waiting room for a long time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it was really cool. Well, so it's I remember going, we like we went to like a random building up elevator, oh my god, and then like it's like such a hole in the wall, like literally such a small office. But then you walk in, it says Gianna Center, and we didn't know who St. Gianna was at this time. I had no idea. Like, oh that's great. We walk in, and then there's crucifixes and like there's images, and it just felt like a very different place when we got there. And then I remember when when she finally like had me come in because you wanted me to be to like learn some of the stuff, she walked me through, or walked both of us through, and you for the second time, through like what a woman's cycle is supposed to work like, um, and not like the way you learn in health class. Like it was very it was so much more informative, and I really like understood like oh hormones do this, this is what's happening, this is why there's a rise and the fall. And then then she explained that you were gonna do something called charting so that you could figure out where in what a regular cycle should be, like where the like there's an issue so that you could so that she could then better identify how to help you. Which I was like, this is amazing. Yeah. So like in that, so like even before the ultrasounds and the blood were like she explained what yeah, she explained charting and she basically explained NFP without calling it that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so she like explained basically fertility awareness, right? So she explained how you can monitor different things that your body does to communicate with you, the female body, to communicate with her, like fertility and infertility, like the times in the cycle when like yeah, different hormones are are dominant. And um, and she explained why that works and when when a woman has this, then this could be happening. When a woman, like if she's seeing this, then this could be happening. And she explained all the different possibilities and then you know, had us go home and find. I mean, and she helped us find, like, she gave us a bunch of a big list of um creatin NFP instructors. So creatin is one type of NFP, and it's very helpful in NFP method. NFP method, sorry, thank you. Um, and it's very helpful in like helping to diagnose um fertility issues and hormone imbalances and stuff in women because it uses the biomarker of cervical mucus, and that in and of itself tells you a lot about the woman. So we learned the Creighton method. Again, this is before engagement, before being married, but just to like learn better what my body was doing well and what it wasn't doing well. Um, and what we found was that my body was never ovulating, like I just wasn't ovulating, it was dry all the time. For anybody that knows NFP, I was just always dry. Nothing ever happened. So in that, Dr. Nolte helped me have um, she helped me not grow cysts and stuff using progesterone. So I had low progesterone and she officially diagnosed with PCOS and actually like explained. What's PCOS stands for polycystic ovarian syndrome? Um, and there's a lot of different symptomologies that you know women can have. Um sometimes like the the the main ones that like secular doctors.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if we need disclaimers, but like we are not physicians, physicians and physicians, we we don't even speak English, actually. We're not doctors and we're not giving medical advice. And if you have a question about any medicine, you go on WebMD like a normal person.
SPEAKER_04Like a normal millennial, and then you realize you're dying, and then it's fine.
SPEAKER_01No, go to urgent care, go to the doctor. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_01So But we are linking to Napro Doctors in the show notes.
SPEAKER_05There we go. So I didn't fit a lot of like the more like common symptomologies of symptoms of PCOS, but my ultrasound showed lots of tiny cysts in both ovaries, and um my testosterone is high, is high for a normal woman, and there's just like a couple other things that anyways. I was officially diagnosing, she explained how and what and why all those things were happening to my body, um, which was great, and she helped me to start supplementing progesterone. Um but what we knew going into our marriage though, was that like infertility or subfertility was going to be something that we were gonna be facing because by doing by charting by practicing fertility awareness, like we knew that I wasn't ovulating. I think in the the two years of like charting before we got married, I ovulated once on my own. Um pretty wild, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So like because I remember she gave you progesterone to supplement day 18 through something, 28.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and then like and then and it would induce a period, but it wasn't like your body actually doing it, it wasn't ovulating, right?
SPEAKER_01Which is so wild. It's just because like spoiler alert, we have five kids. But I remember I remember conversations we had about you were like, I think I'm meant to be a mom. Yeah, but I'm not gonna be able to be a mom.
SPEAKER_05I'm sorry, you know, and just like that was part of the whole well, it was part of our like definitely our discernment of marriage and into engagement and newlywed life. Like, like, are you well, I know in engagement, I there were several times where I was like, Are you okay being married to me if we don't have kids? Because I don't know if I'm going to be able to, I don't know if we're gonna be able to conceive. And then with low progesterone, like our chance of miscarriage was higher as well.
SPEAKER_01Um, and I remember it and I don't know if this is fast-forting too much, I don't know what order we're we're going in, but I don't know. I remember, you know, one of the things we as a young husband talking to the other young husbands as we all got married and we started talking about NFP and like there's like this abstaining during during the fertile window in NFP, and I remember being like, uh yeah, Monica doesn't have fertile windows, and they were just like, that sounds amazing from from their perspective. And um, and that's actually I don't know if we mentioned this in other episodes, but like that was part of a difficult part of our marriage because like we never had to abstain in the beginning of marriage. Like that didn't teach us good habits. Yep.
SPEAKER_05But yeah, well, so yeah, in starting out that way, that didn't teach us great habits of like yeah, chastity because it was that that option was like always available because I was always fertile, but or I was always infertile. Um, but then it also became hard, like it became difficult in our marriage too, because it was also a constant reminder that like this is not leading to having a baby. Um and when we decided to start like to decided to switch from like okay, well, let's just see if you ovulate, that'll be great, you know. To we then eventually decided to actively try to get pregnant using some medical interventions.
SPEAKER_01And I remember you had a very hard time with that, but the idea like making that decision, yeah. Well, even just the idea of taking anything to help you ovulate. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05That was just yeah. And uh and part of it was just like, no, this is what my body is supposed to do. I want it to do. It was it was like almost like a grieving process of like like really coming to terms with like your body is not doing what it's supposed to do, and you're allowed to do some things to help your body act the way it's supposed to act. Um, and I had a hard time like some kind of reconciling that with the church's teaching, which I believe to be true about IUI and IVF, and like you know, like just wrestling with like I don't want too much science involved, I want it to just be you and I and the and and things like that. But um yeah, we eventually discerned and decided to start using some ovulation-inducing medications, um, particularly chlomid and letrazole um to try to conceive.
SPEAKER_00Letrozole could also be used for as a steroid, but yes, that's a different conversation.
SPEAKER_05Small doses, only a few days out of the cycle.
SPEAKER_01Um Yeah, so I in in terms of this conversation, so like is there anything else you think needs to be mentioned about how he came to know NFP and just that journey? Because I can know that you you I think you summarize it really well. Um, because I think people also want to know, like, well, I don't know, like I think part of our NFP journey up to this point is also like how our kids came about. But I want to respect their privacy, so like you're gonna get the rest of the information is gonna be out of order. So hopefully you won't be able to unless you know them. Unless you know us and know them and you're a godparent, then you know.
SPEAKER_04Outside of that that's special information. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um because like there it I still think there's a so like it must sound it must sound crazy to hear Monica say that she's she was considered infertile, you know, or the doctor said she wasn't gonna be able to have kids or like very low chance of having kids uh now that we have five. Um but like so like yeah, this our when we first started, like we thought we weren't gonna have any kids, and then we decided to have um to try this different interventions. But so I want to jump around in terms and like you just tell me if this is I'm f I'm here for the so I know um well it's I don't know how to do this without like saying the orders.
SPEAKER_05So after after one of the children we had, um your body went back to went went started doing it the things it's supposed to be doing on some Well, and that was interesting because Yes. So my body started doing oh, which child are you talking about? Okay Yeah, so my body started doing the f I Remember the first time my body did what it was supposed to do. I like screamed from the bathroom.
SPEAKER_04I was like, it's like, I can tell. I'm getting ready to ovulate.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_05Um what do we do? We had we had kind of talked about being ready to have more kids soon.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_05We wanted more.
SPEAKER_04Is it now? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And we said yes.
SPEAKER_04And then we were like, well, it's this never done this before. So we've got to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_01And I remember we were like, this may not and in the real legitimate, and I think it was legitimate. We were like, oh, it did it on its own.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01We it may not happen again. We have to take advantage. Yes.
SPEAKER_05So that was so that's how another one of the Ortega babies.
SPEAKER_01One of them came that way. And it it's just so amazing to because again, and I want to connect all of it to NFP, but but knowing those signs, like we could make that conscious choice. Yes. Right. Of like, okay, we want this to happen.
SPEAKER_05Yes. And also like revel in the magnificence of life. And like how like how so many pieces need to come together for a hum a new human to be created, and how like yeah, just how special.
SPEAKER_01Perfect. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
SPEAKER_05So many pieces have to come together.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01What were we saying?
SPEAKER_05I don't know. I don't know what I was saying.
SPEAKER_01I'm interrupting this.
SPEAKER_05But yeah, no, it was just it was just fascinating because yeah. So I I don't I don't know. We're I know you're scared, you're you're jumping around, but I know one of the reasons why we've been asked to share this story is because or our NFP story, our journey with NFP and creating the family of five with five kids that we have is because we kind of have experience in all the different like abbreviations or acronyms, like trying to avoid TTA, trying to whatever, and ending up with a baby, trying to whatever, and not having a baby, and then trying to conceive, you know, like intentionally. We've you know, we've tried to conceive so that was our try.
SPEAKER_01Let's do it that way. That was our trying to TTC. That was our trying to conceive. Yeah, that was it. And we had one where we were trying to avoid.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01And the child's and lo the Lord decided to gift us a child anyway, that even though we were trying to avoid. Yes. That was so difficult.
SPEAKER_05Yes. So we had we had a surprise pregnancy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we had a TTC and we had a TTA baby. Yes. And that baby, I I remember like that was so because like you, and I don't know if people think how think we react to things, but like we were like expletive.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because we were not, because we were trying to avoid, and we we are gifted another child, and like you're like, oh, it's a happy thing. I'm not happy right now.
SPEAKER_05No, not in that moment.
SPEAKER_01And you then and then you feel guilty for not feeling happy.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_01And you're like, I'm the worst parent in the world now.
SPEAKER_05Yes. Oh my goodness, so many feelings. Okay, so I want to back up just a little bit with our surprise baby. So so we we know three different methods of natural family planning. So the first method we learned was creating.
SPEAKER_01Well, the latest one is when you made up on your own.
SPEAKER_05That's that's not a good seller. That's the best method. Link in the show notes. Sorry, don't do it. So I'll explain that in a minute. But we learned creaton first. And because we believe so strongly in natural family planning and just like just how good it is for the woman's body, how good it is for a woman to know about their body, for how good it is for spouses to understand one another, the practice of chat, like all the things. We are super fans of NFP, right?
SPEAKER_01Let's become NFP instructors.
SPEAKER_05Let's become NFP instructors. And Creighton, because it is so scientific, it costs a lot of money and there's a lot of training to become a Creighton instructor, as it should. Like, I'd I don't really have a judgment on that because of how intricate it is and like specialize to so many women's different like health things. And we just wanted to kind of like be able to give the basics to like the people in our marriage prep classes and the like the the high school and college girls, like just learning their bodies and stuff. So we just wanted to be able to like share that information. So we learned a different method of NFP. And I'm sorry, Symptothermal people, but this is where the surprise baby came from. So we learned Symptothermal from the couple that we called back in high school in college, and they're wonderful, and they've they've been NFP instructors for a very long time.
SPEAKER_01But now learning since learning um I almost said Princeton. Since learning Marquette, yeah, I and then and honestly, I almost said Princeton, sorry, but since so since learning Marquette, and then even on top of that, going doing things with your Anito, I can see why Symptothermal didn't work for you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because like there's been so many double peaks you've had.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_01Right. There's so many things that, like, okay, yeah, Symptothermal would have called that, and they're like, oh, okay, we're good.
SPEAKER_05Yep.
SPEAKER_01But we're not.
SPEAKER_05Yep. So we learned a new method, we learned the Symptothermal method, we were practicing it, and then we had one month where like I remember texting them and being like, our symptothermal chart says this. But my my background knowledge of Creighton says it is not a go day. And they're like, No, you can trust the method, like this is good. So we went for it. And yeah, then nine months later, a new baby came. So and I I guess like I this is not there, there is a certain level. That's like the the only way to not get pregnant is to be abstinent, like period. That's the that is the only 100% surefire way to not get pregnant is to be completely abstinent.
SPEAKER_01Well, and finish.
SPEAKER_05So to a certain extent, like you are uh like uh like you're you're making uh decisions. Right.
SPEAKER_01So in you are making decisions in in love and responsibility, St. John Paul actually goes into the the idea that if you're having sex with your spouse and you are thinking to yourself, I cannot have a baby, you shouldn't be having sex with your spouse. Like he because it's very clear that like you're now you're cut off from the possibility of what this act ought to be creating. It it and it and he he does make sure like that doesn't mean you have to conceive every time. That doesn't mean you can't use methods where that you're using chastity as a way of of of avoiding. But if you are so you're so afraid of conceiving a child that you're like that you are that it becomes part of like this this whole anxious thing of like I can't have a baby, I can't have a baby, you're not in a place where you should be consummating your marriage with your spouse. And I I I really and I'll try to find we should have probably done it for this episode so I can pull it up with the Pope. Um, because I don't remember exactly where it is, but he words it very beautifully, it's beautifully and confusing as he does. Um, but it it's very good. Like in our hearts, we can't be saying, I cannot have a child, I or I cannot be a mother, I cannot be a father. Like that shouldn't be the the the fear that we're going into having sex, like that has nowhere that should not does not belong in the bedroom. Um an NFP isn't a way of guaranteeing you're not gonna have a child. Yeah, um, it's you you like you're using all the all the science methods that that um we have, but you're still giving it up to the Lord of like if it be your will though, yeah, we're still uniting ourselves.
SPEAKER_05Right. And that, I mean, and in fairness to NFP, like that's the same of any contraceptive method as well. Like the pill has failure rates, vasectomies and tube ties, and like all condoms, like all of that. One, you're speaking a lie with your body, with those with with inserting something else into that relationship, into that dynamic. But also, like, there's always that possibility. Like, the only way to ensure that you will not have children is to be abstinent. And there are times and there can be circumstances where that is so vital that that's the decision that you have to come to for the the good of your family and the good of your spouse. You sacrifice that because like we just we cannot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and then on top of that though, we I remember when we found out we were pregnant with that child, we thought, like, end of the world, like we need how are we gonna do this, how are we gonna afford this, all those reasons. And looking back, I'm like, I'm so happy we have that child. Yes, so happy, yes, drives me nuts, so happy.
SPEAKER_05But in that moment, though, I guess I just I really do want to validate anyone that has shared that experience of a surprise pregnancy. I I mean, it was like it felt like the blood left my face, and like we were I was crying, like we were saying words that we should not be using, like we were just straw, and like I don't know how I'm going to do this. It was such a how we're gonna do it.
SPEAKER_01It's such a shame cycle because like you're ashamed, you're like you're you're guilty and ashamed because you've because of it happened, then because you feel bad, and then you're like, and then you then you're ashamed because like you this whole situation, like you feel you're ashamed that you feel bad, you're ashamed that you're not feeling bad. Aren't aren't we supposed to be Catholic, be open to life? Like you're you're all these like mixed feelings. Yep. And this is where like that this child's godparents were played a really big role in loving us through it all. Like, I I really like that was really that was important to be able to, and this is where I think people who have had surprise pregnancies, if they feel isolated and don't feel like they can share, like I don't know how to feel about this right now. Like if they feel like, oh, I have to put it on a face and be happy all the time.
SPEAKER_05They were a really safe space for us to just be honest about how we felt and where we were in life, and just all, yeah, just so many things. Like we felt like we were in such an unstable like place in our marriage and in our family life and in our finances.
SPEAKER_01Like in work and career, like oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_05It was just so, it was just not like the it was not in our minds the right timing whatsoever. And it was terrifying. And they were just like a really safe space for that. And we felt like such like a lot of shame because here we were like touting how great NFP is, and like everybody should be all married couples should be practicing it, you know, all women should be using fertility awareness. So it was so embarrassing to be like either we could lie and say, like, oh yeah, this was totally on purpose. Like, no, we were telling people we were avoiding and it was working. Like, and so we had to be honest and be like, this was a surprise. Yep. And and there are surprises where like you fudge the rules a bit, and like that was you know, we we we used extra days at the beginning, or we didn't wait long enough after ovulation. Like that happens, and that's like that that's not a method failure, but like there was this was send this to the instructors. Like, are we in the go? And and so it was really I almost want to use the word devast, like I felt devastated at that time.
SPEAKER_01For the first few days, absolutely like it was just but then I that's why like I really and I I I do want to balance that out with that as as the pregnancy happened and as continued, yeah. As it continued, and and then as we were being supported by the commun community around us, and then as the child came and as the child's grown, like it I and I want to say this because I think it's important, like I feel very silly for being that upset. Yes, right. I feel very like I I clearly could not see with with God's perspective of of the entire like I felt like my and it sounds ridiculous, but like I felt like everything we were like it's it's very dramatic. Like I felt like our lives were over, like we could not handle this one, right? And now I'm like, that's you're such a silly boy. Like it's just I'm very upset with myself that that I got that mad, yes, and that frustrated and that devastated over such it, and now I can see why, like, no, it is a gift. And and again, not making people feel if you felt that way, like, no, we've been there, yes, but you can't stay there because the the child is a gift and they'll show themselves a gift.
SPEAKER_05Yes, and because like I think that I think that actually one of our episodes is called like the way that God gives gifts or something like that, and it's about children, like that that child, that pregnancy, that experience, sorry, starting that experience and then that pregnancy and that child and the way our life is now is because of the way that God gives gifts, and like I want to glorify him in that because like I cannot imagine what our life would be like without those gifts. And like he has transformed God, like we have to allow God to transform anything that we are afraid of or feel shame for or are suffering through because he has ways to transform them. And and he absolutely did that through through this experience with with the surprise pregnancy. That was yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then we also had a child that we conceived after like months and months of trying and months of fertility treatment and that being sick, and yeah. And like it's funny because like I I I know I talked to one of like when I talk to the young adult guys that are getting married about like something she could experience in in in marriage. Um, the idea of like, what what if like you can't have a baby? And they're like, oh yeah, and like, oh, so you just have sex every day and you keep trying. And I was like, Yeah, that's kind of what it's like, and they're like, that sounds amazing. I was like, yeah, it's not, it's not, right? It's not amazing at all. Because like it's it's such a sad, difficult thing. Yes. And like it one, like sex becomes a chore. Yep.
SPEAKER_05And like it's just so because it becomes like what especially when you're using fertility treatments and things, like you're trying to time things so precisely, and you're just like hoping that like if you do it just right this time that it'll work. And you know, like you're you're you're hyper focused on how you're eating and sleeping and like all these things. And and so it can lose it can lose that like like sex can lose that fullness of power that you want from it because you're really focused on trying to conceive a child. Um and that definitely like was a gut check for us too, because like are we just in this for like a kid? And so there was definitely it got to a point where we're like, okay, we're not going to like be so calculated about this anymore because this is not what God intended for sex either. Like, yes, he wants family and he wants children and they're blessing and they're a gift, but like God doesn't want us to be using sex in order to make a child, like he wants us to be consummating our marriage, to be renewing our vows.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I remember that and then like the disappointment every month when like the negative pregnancy tests, and like there's no nothing happening and just feeling like things aren't working, and yeah, yeah, that was that's a very very emotionally draining, and then I don't know. I don't remember, I don't remember all of our conversations around it though. I remember that you kept trying new things though, and like some of them actually made you have worse worse cysts, and you ended up in the hospital for one of them. Was it because of the that medication? That was nuts, yeah. Um, and then like you go around antibiotics at one point and like other types like herbal remedy.
SPEAKER_05Yep, mucinx.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you are mucinex, like all this. And I'm just and and listen, she she were she worked something though, but but I just remember like you were being put on so many things, and I I didn't like it now because I felt like are we just treating you like a like a science experiment? I'm like just keep throwing things at you, see what happens.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and you feel a little bit that way. And then like as the woman, you feel or whomever is the the the spouse with the that's like bringing the fertility issue to the you know, to the relationship. Like you feel like I'm not giving my spouse what they want and they deserve and what I want for them, and like you kind of feel like it's your fault, and yeah, there's a lot of shameless in that as well because you're like, why can't why can't my body just work the way it's supposed to work? You know, and and isn't this desire for children good? And I want that. And um, yeah, there's just a lot of do you remember what your prayer was like then?
SPEAKER_01Like at like um You don't if you don't, it's like I barely remember things like that.
SPEAKER_05I I like I do some like I remember some of it just being like like God, I so want to be a mother. Like I feel like you've created me to be a mother. Why am I not a mother? You know, or like why why can we not give a sibling? You know, and like things like that.
SPEAKER_00It's um like how she mixed it up, so you can't tell. I like it.
SPEAKER_05Well, because it's true multiple times. So like it yeah, yeah. It was just um and a lot of like like wrestling with that between and that and also being like I don't want to feel used for for sex and to like have it be, you know, like it just it was losing its fullness, like it was losing its fullness and its full purpose. Um and like how to how to I remember like there's definit one of my prayers actually more than once and for different reasons and different seasons, like sometimes postpartum and sometimes because of this. Like I've prayed for like a holy sexual desire because there were just times in our marriage where like it just wasn't I didn't want it anymore, you know, because of all the baggage that was like coming with it, yeah, or out of exhaustion or out of what have you. So like I remember authentically praying, like I want to desire to have sex so that this can be what it's meant to be because I know like I truly believe what a gift it is meant to be for a marriage, and that like I've experienced that, so like I want to experience that again. So I remember having that prayer as well. Interesting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's funny because I don't remember much. I I remember like I know the stories, like I can tell like how each each child came, but I don't know I don't remember how I know it affected our marriage, I don't I don't remember specifically how each one did. And I remember that was I just remember that one being hard, but I don't I wish I don't remember like instances.
SPEAKER_05I mean it was hard too because like infertility treatment can often make you feel like you're in your first trimester, like like sick and tired and nauseous and loaded and all this stuff, and then you're like, but I'm not even pregnant. So then you're just like I just feel like crap.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And then you're like hoping to get pregnant, then you're like, oh great, then another three months feeling like crap or however long it is.
SPEAKER_01Um we did we did have one baby though, so that was another trying to conceive baby. We did have a trying to whatever baby, and that was a that was a pleasant surprise. That was just coming home and you have a have a stick in your hand.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I came out, you came home from work and I said, You're really good at doing this. So yeah, no, and a trying to whatever baby, and that was just the like not really gonna pay attention to the chart, not really gonna like see what's going on. Um, and just and it wasn't like have sex all the time whenever you want, but it was just a time of like yeah, yeah, almost like a little bit of freedom in like just this is if the if if this is how our family's gonna grow, then it's gonna grow. And if it's not, we're we're content with with where our family is right now, too. Yeah. Um, yeah, and I like it's almost like after sharing that story of the surprise baby, like I don't want to announce it, but like we're just in another space of trying to avoid. Um, and this time, like much more like strictly to the rules, even though we were pretty strict to the rules before you see, and because it's and I don't I don't feel the need to justify, but I think it's important for people to know.
SPEAKER_01Like, yeah, it's to me for me, it's specifically because of your health issues that it's easier to be strict about avoiding. Whereas like before it was it was just it was because like there's financial, like all the other things in our head that we created of like why we can't have one. Whereas like right now it's like no, last pregnancy was absolutely terrible, yeah, really dangerous, really dangerous for you. Yeah, your blood pressure and heart rate. I don't even understand how that was possible for you to be just sitting there and whatever. I can never mind. During my lifts, when I'm lifting, I don't get that high.
SPEAKER_05Tachocardic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't. I well, no, I shouldn't get tachycardic ever. But like you were just you were just so unwell, and then on top of that, this other health stuff that you're having.
SPEAKER_05So like there's just a lot of things that are well, and it's so what's interesting to me is like kind of like going back to the gifts, right? The way that God gives them and the way that God answers prayers and the way that God speaks to you and like shows you, reveals your. Yourself and reveals your heart to you is that like I look back to that time of trying to avoid and then having a surprise pregnancy and being like a lot of those reasons were they felt so important at the time, but were like temporal, like they were temporary things, and like a child is so much bigger and like obviously permanent and eternal, but like like has such a positive impact on your family and on your life that it's it's almost been like a reverse gut check of like I don't know if we needed to be quite so like avoid hardcore and like be so distraught over the pregnancy because it's uh yeah, we're at a point now with like our reasons for trying to avoid are so definitive that it's not like it makes the the um it's not like it makes the times of abstinence easier, but like I'm like we're just very convicted in that time where it's like nope, nope, because it's so severe, like the the consequence is so severe um that yeah, I just yeah, because like I don't waffle in that anymore, and like I don't feel like we need to kind of well, are you sure? You know, like no, it's very, very convincing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, like seeing doctors it and this is I hated this. Like you're and I don't even did we talk have a podcast episode about this one? I don't think we did. Not sure. We should at some point, but but we need to hold back the content though, so we can keep reading it in the future. But I um I'm joking. Uh the one of the I remember your heart rate was what what was it 150, 160? It was like towards the end when we had to get you to the to see Dr. Enriquez, but like I didn't want you walking upstairs because you like you were out of breath just unloading the dishwasher, and I was like, I don't know if you can do stairs.
SPEAKER_05If I got up off the couch and did anything, it was between like 140 and 160.
SPEAKER_01It was insane, and just walking, like it's not like you were doing anything.
SPEAKER_05No, like I didn't have to go to the bathroom.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and then that for anybody who's like, oh, your heart rate goes up when you're pregnant, like her typical resting heart rate is 70.
SPEAKER_05So like it would go up to like my resting was 100.
SPEAKER_01Right. Your resting, yes. So like, and what if from what we've read and from other pregnant people we've known, like your resting goes up maybe 10, maybe 20 beats per minute, but like yours went up 30. Like legitimately said, and like sometimes you'd be sitting and it'd be 150. So I remember that. So I was we were just I was so nervous getting you up there. So we got you a wheelchair, we get you up there, and they check your blood pressure, blood pressure's high, and your heart rate is high.
SPEAKER_05Which is which is atypical because normally when your blood pressure is high, your heart rate is lower because your heart is trying to like pump blood, but my heart was pumping blood really fast, so he also having a heart attack.
SPEAKER_01He was such a kind old man, but he was just trying to be calm, like, okay, yeah, I don't know what's happening. Yeah, we're gonna send you to the hospital. Just like and it was during like COVID time, so I couldn't go with you. Yep. It was the worst.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so I was admitted to the hospital for three days.
SPEAKER_01More than you were admitted more than once, so no, you were you were sorry, you weren't admitted more than once.
SPEAKER_05I was admitted once, but I was admitted for three days, and I saw pretty much every specialist, like pulmonary specialists and the maternal fetal medicine, and who else? There, like um I don't know. Cardiologist. I snuck into the hospital.
SPEAKER_01You did. That was pretty. That was with your there's a story. No, but don't say it. Don't say it. That was good. Okay. That was good. I know, I can't. That's part of for the next episode when we talk about this, but I did end up sneaking into the hospital because I wasn't allowed in there.
SPEAKER_05Yep.
SPEAKER_01Um, that was like a legitimate Holy Spirit moment, though. Like, oh god, I'll tell story later.
SPEAKER_04Tell the story.
SPEAKER_01No, because we need another episode. All right, so Monica gets so like we're doing this whole thing, then they send Monica to the hospital. And so, like, I know, so how did I I don't know, I brought so I brought you to the hospital, then I went back to get the kids to drop off the to drop the kids off with my mom. Um, and so I'm driving and I was bringing you your back your overnight bag, right? And um with the laptop and like other stuff, right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, so we could like um yeah, because my Zoom was to put the hospital right.
SPEAKER_01I think it was Google Chat when they used to have Google Chat, and I would and like so that you could have like a I was so you could hear the doctors, but yeah, so I wanted to be on like FaceTime. Yeah, oh my gosh, we're so old. No, we're not so old, like things changed so quickly from then. Like, so I wanted to be able to like video chat with the doctors and like see you throughout the night, whatever. Um, so I packed your overnight bag, and as I'm driving there, I was planning on just dropping it off at the lobby because I couldn't they wouldn't let me in.
SPEAKER_05And you were gonna say at your mom's because she lives closer to the hospital.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, she's like five minutes from there. So I remember as I was driving and pulling.
SPEAKER_05Sorry, in fairness, like we we were at the point where like we didn't know what was going on. I was 31 weeks pregnant, about 31 weeks pregnant, and we didn't know if I was gonna be induced. Like we thought you might have to be close because we might be having a pre-me right now, and like oh, I needed to be close because my wife was in the hospital, but okay.
SPEAKER_01Uh, I'd be close even if you weren't pregnant. Um, so and as I'm driving in to, and I talked about this at youth group the like the next Sunday too, but as I was driving in to I love you. Thank you. As I'm driving in to drop off the bag, um, I remember like in my heart, I and I don't talk like this often, but I remember like it just it was like in me the the words of like you're staying there tonight. And I was just like, What? There's no chance. And I don't know again, you're staying there tonight. So I was like, all right, mom, I'm staying here tonight. You drive the kids to your house, you guys go to bed. And she's like, What do you mean? I was like, No, I'm staying here. She's like, How are they gonna let you in? I was like, I don't know. And I I I don't do this, I have no idea. And I remember going in with the bag, I said bye to the kids, and they're like, Where are you going? I was like, No, I'm staying.
SPEAKER_05Yep.
SPEAKER_01Okay, definitely. And you weren't even like the okay, sorry, go ahead and I'll I'll so I go, I well, no, I remember I so I went up to the front desk and I said, I'm I'm here for Monica Ortega, I'm gonna bring her her bag. And they gave me a pass, I'm like, Oh, go ahead.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, like you weren't even like sneaky or like lied about it, but you're like, I'm here to bring Monica her bag. She's in maternity ward.
SPEAKER_01Yep. And they just let me in.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And oh, this is a different no, we're gonna wanna get off and I don't wanna can I do it? No, don't do it. Fine, no, don't mind.
SPEAKER_05But you the best part about it.
SPEAKER_01And then and I remember I I was on the phone with you. Was I on the phone with you? Yeah, I'm talking on the phone as and you don't even know I'm in the hospital as I'm going in, and then I I walk in and have my cobra Kai shirt on.
SPEAKER_04Yep, that was the best part. Cobra Kai. Cobra Kai.
SPEAKER_01No, but I was popular with the I and I I remember like big hug and kissing, like you were crying because like I was you weren't supposed to be there. Oh, and like that was so nice. And then the nurses and doctors were so good about it. I don't even know if they understood how I got in there. I don't know. But no one came out.
SPEAKER_05Also, part of it was like that's how sick I was. Right.
SPEAKER_01That's well, that's how unknown of whatever. So like I remember you saw pulmonologist, cardiologist, you saw um and and so like those are the only two specialists you saw from what I remember. Um, but the the tests they were doing though, like the different scans they were doing to see like they thought you had blood clots at one point. Um they pulmonary embolism? Yes. That's the specific one. Sorry. Like, yeah, blood clot in your in your um lungs. So like they were they were checking off everything and they still couldn't figure out why.
SPEAKER_05Why I was, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and then so and I remember and then they sent me home the next day, they sent me home. Um they were very nice about it. Like, all right, you have to go.
SPEAKER_05Oh, you've been here long enough now.
SPEAKER_01Yep, yeah.
SPEAKER_05So then I was there a little bit longer, but like it they had ruled out so many of like the really scary things. They're like, okay, you need to go home now. We're gonna figure out how to help her, but like you need to go home now. Um, but yeah, no, it was just and there's still there's still no answer to what you're Dr.
SPEAKER_01Enrique's after like after you had the baby and yeah, and he came in like one of your follow-ups is like, so we don't know what happened. Yeah. So just let's figure out what happened before you have another baby.
SPEAKER_05Well, it was really sweet because he's like, I know that you don't use birth control, but um, I I really think that you shouldn't have another baby unless a cardiologist um signs off on that. Yeah like you're gonna you're gonna need a cardiologist for your next pregnancy. So please um just just think about that. Yeah, and it was just so sweet because I was like, you're being really respectful, but you're also being like, I don't know what happened to you, and you can't do that again. Like it was it was really and then he retired and now he's gone. But um, yeah, no, that was I I mean, I'm really grateful. Like I had I was under his care, and then I also went under because he was semi-retired at that point, so he wasn't delivering anymore. So he's like, you should probably start seeing somebody else too, because I want them to like know what's happening when they are like in the delivery room and stuff. So we went to a different OB, and he was like he he was less personable, but very like good. Like, okay, these are the things I don't want to see. If this happens, like you you go to the hospital and somebody will take care of this.
SPEAKER_01So nuts, man. Remember when you couldn't see out of your right eye? Yeah, no, that was part of it. You couldn't see out of your right eye.
SPEAKER_05I woke up from my nap and one of my eyes was just blurry for and then it lasted for hours.
SPEAKER_01We went to the hospital and the doctor's like, oh, you're fine. Okay. No, okay, blood pressure's high, and I can't see, isn't that the sign of stroke? But okay, cool. It was great, it was great. This is and like, and that's and not anything about I don't want to go off on like the medical system, but one of the reasons is just we don't because no one's sure what happened, it it's just very it's unnerving to be in that situation where like you're like something's clearly wrong with Monica and no one can figure out what it is, and they're all chill about it. And I used to hate them like, why are we okay with this?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then like and a lot of them was you know, you were really good, is like you stop treating me like I'm pregnant. Like, imagine I'm not pregnant. Stop because everyone's excuse is like, oh, it's because you're pregnant. Like, no, imagine I'm not pregnant. What could I do?
SPEAKER_05What else could this be?
SPEAKER_01Um and then what ended up happening, sorry, like we're we're not even positive this was it, but one of her one of your primary uh doctors said or treated you for Lyme.
SPEAKER_05Yep. It could be that so he kind of called it a lime, he called it a possible Lyme flare-up because I didn't have active Lyme. It was the middle of winter. Yep. Um that's not gonna help you figure out what kid it is because most of our kids were born.
SPEAKER_04We have a six-week period where all our kids were born.
SPEAKER_03All were born in the middle of winter.
SPEAKER_04So ha ha. But um, yeah, so he treated me for like a lime flare-up.
SPEAKER_05I think the fact that we're talking about all this, though they know what kid it is because oh well, yeah, I guess because now we're trying to avoid, but anyways, but um It's clearly Colby. Yeah, obviously. But yeah, so treated me for a lime flare-up. We tried to be sneaky about it. I don't think it was very good, but it's okay. Um, and that helped a bit. It didn't help my blood pressure, but it helped my heart rate go down a little bit being on antibiotics.
SPEAKER_01Oh, what was the other the heart med you went on too?
SPEAKER_05Uh lobetolol. Um, but it was good because going into labor and delivery, I was nervous about like how am I going to handle this if my heart rate is so high just laying down. So to have my heart rate go down a little bit made me feel a little bit better. And then yeah, induction and all that stuff. We just all the things.
SPEAKER_01And the in the last child we're gonna talk about, we were trying to conceive and we had stopped the fertility treatments. And we're just like needed a break. Yeah, we needed a break.
SPEAKER_05Because it was it was all the things we described before.
SPEAKER_01It was clearly showing no signs. Yes, clearly showing no signs, and we conceived anyway. Yeah, and that's one that's one of those like trying to conceive uh or like if we were trying to avoid it would have been like oops, but trying to conceive of like a miracle. Yeah. Right, so it's just funny how the framing of that works.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Yeah, that one was funny because I didn't really believe that I was pregnant, so I made UP on a stick just to make sure that the box was reliable.
SPEAKER_01I'm still not pregnant.
SPEAKER_04Still not pregnant, and I was. But I remember that. Like, I did I do it right? I don't know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That was awesome.
SPEAKER_05Um that was really great.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, so that's kind of our our journey with how like our interesting is we did like we hit every like like every maybe there's other types of like ways of NFP and conceiving, but like we did hit many like different situations with each child, and it shows one how unique families are and each individual child is, but also that um just because you learn NFP and practice it doesn't mean like everything's gonna go according to plan. Like there's all these different things um that can happen. This is life. Like this is life, yeah. Right. And then part of what should be used in your NFP is that like you are handing a lot of this over to God. So like whatever is coming, yeah, like trust that he's in it with you, and it's not just you and your spouse.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Well, and that's like that's the beautiful thing about NFP is because you you're still like using science and reason and and all that, but like instead of handing your trust and control over to like an artificial method, like you're handing it over to the Lord. And like, Lord, at the end of the day, you have a plan for my family. And like, thanks be to God, he we are part of discern the discernment process, right? Like, we like God is not He's not secretive, He doesn't try to keep His plan like He's not hiding it from us, He invites us to be part of the discernment process, right? Like He's He invites us to that. Um And so this is the way of like implementing that is like is putting that plan into action in our marriage. Um and so for example, like if we've discerned trying to conceive and it's difficult, like he's in the suffering too, like there's something for your marriage in the struggle to try to conceive, and and I don't know where that is, like I don't know what that blessing, what that gift he has for you, because it will be different for every family. Um, but there's always the welcoming of strengthening your marriage and strengthening and and and calling you to holiness um in his plan. And we have free will at the end of the day, like NFP just uh like allows for free will too. Like we can we can ultimately make decisions too, and we're it that it's in that freedom that you can act.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so thank you guys for being here and listening to our NFP journey. Uh we hope it's affirming and uplifting, and um, if any of you are on the fence about NFP, I hope it it just gives you another reason to look at it and trust it.
SPEAKER_05And sorry, my last point is that to NFP is something that in order to be done well, it has to be done as a couple.
SPEAKER_01Do we have an NFP for husbands episode? I don't think so.
SPEAKER_05We didn't remember No, we have a YouTube video about it. It's not even on our YouTube No, it's not, it's but the NFP collective. We can we can link it.
SPEAKER_01Um we have it on our Patreon too.
SPEAKER_05But it has to be it has to be done as a couple because this is your family, it's your marriage, it's not just your wife. Um it's not just the wife, it's this is this is where you're called to be more united and to discern together and to pray together, like our last episode said, like you you have to be praying together. Um, you have to be discerning God's will together, you have to be communicating with your spouse, like this is what God is telling me. What is God telling you? You know, and like man, this is the this is like a practical way to like live out the spiritual reality of your marriage. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so thank you guys for being here. Make sure to like go like us on Instagram, follow us on Instagram, then make sure to leave a review, leave a five-star rating, and we will see you at the next episode.