How Often Should Married Couples Have Sex? (Reacting to Jordan Peterson vs Christopher West)

In today's episode, we react to Jordan Peterson and Christopher West's answer to "how often married couples should have sex". We give our thoughts on both their responses and then we give our thoughts on the question too! We're so happy you're here with us, let's jump in!

Watch the original video here: https://youtu.be/KpQ6Mubvm9Y?si=OwyPKTlsHBQsv95z

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Transcript

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SPEAKER_02 0:04

You're listening to Pre-Kana with the Pope, a podcast aimed at restoring confidence in marriage and pain in life. But so welcome everybody. So we're we're like live-ish now. Like this is the part that we'll use. So we're here, we're gonna do something different. Um, you from listening, you can't tell we're doing anything different, but if this ever the video ever makes it outside of the cloud that it's being recorded on, um we're recording on a different program today because we want to do a reaction video. Um, but it's like you'll be able to hear what we're reacting to.

SPEAKER_06 0:55

So like it's not like so you're listening to a reaction podcast, but we're also recording it.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Episode podcast. We're not we're not rebranding. Oh, excuse me. Right, right. Are we? No, we're just reacting to things.

SPEAKER_06 1:05

No, no, no. No, no, no, no, we're just trying something. All right, so yeah, but we've I mean, this is something that we've brought up a few times, so I'm glad that we're and we've brought up, we've had issues. We have brought well, this topic has come up before, and these people have come up before, so now we're gonna put them together.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

These people, sorry. I I'm key going. What do you think?

SPEAKER_05 1:32

You're acting different because there's a camera in front of you. I can see myself, and I keep turning to look at you.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

I don't know why.

SPEAKER_06 1:38

I don't know, I can see you here, but then I can see myself, and then I get distracted by myself and Jesus' abs. We have a painting of Jesus behind me, and all I can look at are abs.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Um He needs some milk. Have you seen those? No, no, okay. There's like a I don't know what what's what's like a video meme called. But like there's so there's memes, and then there's like videos, and then there's like audio that is funny that people so like there's a lady that says he needs some milk, and then like they pair that with people's videos on Instagram that like are weak and do something and get hurt, and then like and then you hear her yell, he needs some milk.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

She's gonna have some milk?

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Well, because he's his he's hurt, obviously. Because you can see his ribs. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 2:24

Okay, fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

You can continue. So have people asked us before this question? Because we're gonna the title should be something along the lines about um how often couples should have sex. Not couples, married couples.

SPEAKER_06 2:36

Married couples.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

How often married couples should have sex?

SPEAKER_06 2:39

Dating couples never zero. Um, yeah, no, they have asked us in the QA's on Instagram.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

And we've just ignored it.

SPEAKER_06 2:46

You have, you're like, I'm not touching that one. But now we're gonna touch it because other people touched it first.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

You're acting different because you're on camera now. Uh no, because so I don't know where this talk came from, but Jordan Peterson addressed it. It looks like he did like a live QA with Tammy, who Tammy's his wife. We're on a first name basis. Um his and his wife is becoming Catholic. Yeah, she's joined RCIA. Um, I don't even know if it's called RCIA anymore, technically.

SPEAKER_06 3:17

Some places OCIA and some RCIA. And Spray S Rosary.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Yeah, which is a prerequisite for RCA. No, I don't know. Um, but so uh it looks like they were doing a QA, a live QA on stage, and it may have been after a talk they gave on marriage or something, because they the questions asked about how often couples should have sex. Marriage sorry, uh how well actually I don't know, uh but I'm assuming he's talking about married couples, like how often married couples should have sex, and um, he addresses the question and then Christopher West reacted to his answer, and now we are going to react to both his answer and then react to Christopher West's answer, a reaction, his reaction to yeah, so so this is a reaction to a reaction to a question. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 4:05

So we're gonna so it's our new thing now, guys.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

So so yeah, because this is our way of not directly answering a question, but then like we'll give it our we'll give our thoughts on it and hopefully an answer too. Um, and I hope that this sounds good as a podcast. Because I'm not sure, because I know this is like people things people do for video. Um I'm not planning on doing this for video, but I this is the only way I can get the audio of the video to play in to play in the audio. Yep.

SPEAKER_06 4:34

All right, here we go.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Let's try it out. All right. I gotta click.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Husband says 15 times a week, and the wife Wait, start sorry, let me start at the beginning.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Okay. That was like two seconds in. Ready and action.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

The husband says, well, 15 times a week, and the wife says once every two years, and that's and neither of them want to admit that that's what they want or need, and so they won't talk about it, and so you have to corner people if you're a treacherous therapist. And the way you do that is by starting with something absurd. It's like, well, how about once every two years? And both of them pretty much agree almost instantly that that's probably a little on the scarce side. And then you might say, well, why how about four times a day? And virtually without exception, although not always, both parties agree that that's probably aiming for the stars, let's say.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

I think that's a brilliant strategy of like if you got if you want to have the conversation, how often we should how often a married couple should have sex, and like you're you're the couple, and like all right, how how often is is good for both of us, I think going to the two extremes and saying, like, all right, let's we can agree on this at least.

SPEAKER_06 5:54

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

We start there.

SPEAKER_06 5:55

And it almost brings in a little bit of like humor and obscurity to it, like absurdity, obscurity. I don't anyways, like it brings in a little humor to it as well, so that it can cut some of the tension, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 6:09

At least it did in the audience. In the audience, I wonder if the conversation's like I was smiling too, but I guess it depends what mood you're in when you have this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Yeah. No, it's that's it's just a neat strategy.

unknown 6:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

But then now you've got people nicely trapped because you know it's somewhere between four times a day and once every two years. And then you can pull in the walls. It's like, well, how about six times a week? Or how about once every three months? And you know, that's a lot closer, right? Still not that close, but it's a lot closer. And generally, my experience was that people who have relatively productive and engaged and multidimensional lives settle on something varying between once to three times a week.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

And do you think there's a right amount?

SPEAKER_06 7:04

Are we getting to that already?

SPEAKER_02 7:06

I just okay. There's no there's not like getting to. This isn't this is just this is a podcast conversation.

SPEAKER_06 7:11

I know, I just didn't seem like what they were saying. So I wasn't ready for that question. Do I think there's a right amount? No. I don't think there's a right amount because do you want me to answer because?

SPEAKER_04 7:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 7:26

Um, I don't think there's a right amount because there's so many factors to consider when you're talking about how frequently couples should. I don't know. Even like there's like the difference, I think, between like how often should a couple be having sex versus how often should they be aiming for having sex too. So, like, you know, like, you know, we're gonna try for this, but like, you know, reality will set in, a kid wakes up, the day went, you know, sour or whatever. But um, I think that there's a lot of different factors. There's whether or not a couple is, I mean, we're talking about Catholic couples here now, too, in particular, Catholic married couples, but I think just so we stop doing that.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

When we when we say couples for the remainder of this episode, we're talking about Catholic married couples.

SPEAKER_06 8:11

Okay, fair. So, you know, if they're practicing NFP, what are they practicing that for? Are they trying to avoid pregnancy or achieve pregnancy? That would change things a bit. Um, you know, what you know, are there health factors, are there work factors? Like, does somebody work crazy shift, like, you know, three 12-hour shifts versus you know, regular nine to five? Are, you know, are you working opposite schedules so that somebody's always home with the kids? Is somebody in the military? I think there's a lot of factors to it.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

So yeah, and that's why I thought like it's such a I feel like at least he doesn't even really give a specific answer. He just kind of says that, well, he kind of he was giving like what different couples come up with, and that generally most couples, um, I think he said one to three times a week was what they were coming up with. And I just I just thought like that that's why the question came in my head like, is there a correct amount? Or is it like couple does is it based couple to couple? Um, is there a correct amount that they should be aiming for? That's like, oh, this is healthy. Um, but again, like it varies seasonal life. It's just that so that's that's where my mind was going. Um, because I'm sure like similar to like whatever uh couples are listening to this episode, like the same I don't know, they have the same question, and like that's what they're asking.

SPEAKER_06 9:31

Well, and I think it's so it's it's an interesting question too, because or well, if the question is how often should we be having sex? Or is is the question how often we should be having sex, or how often are healthily married couples having sex? Like, I think sometimes the question is like not necessarily about us, but like I want to see where we fall on the spectrum of like, what do other people do? You know, like and who do we ask? You can't ask your friends or your siblings, like, how often do you have sex? You know, so I think part of it is just wondering like, are we within the realm of normal, or are we, oh yeah, we're having way more sex than other people, or are we like, we're not even close. But even like the once a week versus three times a week, that's that's still a big difference because that's yeah, that's four times a month versus 12. You know, that could be, I don't know. I think yeah, do you think it's a really asking?

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Do you think it's a I perversion? I don't think is the right word, but like should couples not even care? Right, where where they fall on the spectrum? Like, is that a already like a dis disordering of like a curiosity that's not meant to be right? Like why why does it matter? Yeah, right, right. Like, because I know that I've said this to you before, like in in the suma, like curiosity is considered a sin, but like a certain type of curiosity, right? Like to know a frivolous thing just to know it. Like, why does that matter? So, like, does it like I can I can see needing to wanting to know where you fall with others your age who believe their faith the same way they do to to see again, like, are we doing things incorrectly?

SPEAKER_03 11:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

Um, but at the same time, like, I don't, I just I don't know if it's a healthy thing to even think about where you fall.

SPEAKER_06 11:17

I think there is a little bit of I I I see what you're saying, especially if you're like if this comes from a place of like anxiety or worry of like not doing the right thing, or if there's like some level of scrupulosity to it. Um, but I do think that there is a I think there's ways to ask that question in a healthy manner, though, that you're just like, am I prioritizing sexual intimacy with my spouse enough? Am I over prioritizing it? Like, should we be focusing on other? I think that there's like a healthy way to to wonder about this question. Um, because again, like you, you in knowing at least some to some extent theology of the body, and then like having certain things where you're like sex in marriage is good, you know, sex is good, God created sex, you married couples are supposed to have sex. So I think there is some level of of um like healthy wonder to that question of like, I just want to make sure that I'm putting this in its rightful order. Um, but I think that there's a fine line with that. Like, I I I totally see what you're saying, and I think that I even myself have fallen trapped to over wondering or thinking too much about other people.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

And I wonder if it's because I guess like what's the purpose of needing to know or of wanting to know where you fall?

SPEAKER_03 12:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

Is that kind of what you're getting at?

SPEAKER_03 12:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

All right. Well, so I think for the and I'm I watched this once.

SPEAKER_06 12:51

I haven't seen this yet.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

I I think he's gonna, I think Christopher Russ is gonna start jumping in soon.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

And that's that's a close approximation. And I've also noticed that couples who aren't intimate physically about once a week at minimum, things tend to deteriorate across time and the relationship tends not to hold. And I've also noticed that unless you spend about 90 minutes a week, maybe he's gonna get so now Christopher's is gonna start reacting.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

But I think that's really um I I take his uh perspective as a therapist seriously, like that um again, very broad strokes of saying like you have to once a week, uh, but he's saying that's like I guess like that's an average. So again, if you're practicing NFP, there's some weeks that that's not happening. So I don't know, like if Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 13:49

But what I'm hearing though is that like if if physical intimacy, if sexual intimacy is uh not a part of your relationship, or it's a scarcity within your relationship, then other pieces of your relationship can or will deteriorate. Or it could also, I think, be on the flip side, a barometer of other things in your relationship are not going well if sexual intimacy is a scarcity in a relationship that doesn't have like a very concrete reason for that to be off the table.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

Interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 14:24

Like if there's if there's a very clear reason of like somebody's health, postpartum, you know, recent surgery, like something like that, like then and it's off the table for a very like concrete reason, then that's not what we're talking about. But I I would I think my my reasoning, my logic would say, well, that does kind of make sense that if this is not even really an a regular part of your relationship, then something about your marriage could be deteriorating because this is something that is unique to a marriage versus other relationships.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

Interesting. Well, it it's at least in my mind, yeah. So like a chicken and an egg type thing of like, is there less sex because you're lacking in these other areas?

SPEAKER_06 15:09

Or are these other areas suffering because there's a lack of sex? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

And it could be a both end, right? Yeah. But um, and then the sorry, you were saying reasons why sex is off the table. I also think one thing that's fascinating to me, and this is something I learned through the different um social media content influencers on on social media. Uh um that like I guess I guess sorry, I don't mean to say it in such a like uh but I guess uh sex being painful is a reason why it's off the table for a lot of um couples. And I don't know if that's articulated within the relationship, or if it's even known like, oh, that's a that's a thing. It it's not supposed to be.

SPEAKER_06 15:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Can you elaborate more? Because I that's the extent of my knowledge.

SPEAKER_06 15:56

Oh yeah, I mean, so there's definitely been a better communication and more understanding of I think this is particular, particularly for women more often than men, but um for sex being painful for women, and there's a few physiological reasons for that, a few medical reasons for that. Um, but if that's a part of your relationship, if that's part of the the anatomy of the woman, or the some for some reason that could be um endometriosis or vaginism or a couple other things that um yeah, that like if the well, first of all, sex is not supposed to be painful. There is kind of this idea that maybe the first time or the first few times might be painful because you're getting used to the act, but it really like sex should should not be painful in in like on a regular basis. So if that is, then there's definitely some sort of medical reason to look into. Um and and that has I think that there's more, I think more women are sharing about that, which I hope allows more women to share that in their relationship with their spouse, with their husband saying, like, this is a thing, um, and not be ashamed of it, but also to encourage them to seek treatment because there's there are ways to help with that as well.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Because I know that's a a reason it's one of the many reasons it could be off the table, could be because it's just not enjoyable. So like I that's not a thing that that mean they could be from either party, like they shouldn't desire because it's not enjoyable.

SPEAKER_06 17:36

Um But I think that's different than painful.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

I think there's a lot of enjoyable right, right. So I was just painting it more as an umbrella, like unenjoyable. It could be not enjoyable. Painful could be one of the reasons why it's not enjoyable, but then and there's other reasons why. But I'm just happy that that's like you said, that's starting to become a conversation.

SPEAKER_06 17:54

Yeah. Um but if it's not enjoyable, I think that's a very different conversation.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Maybe enjoyable is not the right word. It's not a positive experience for that.

SPEAKER_06 18:07

I still think that's a totally different conversation. Cause then that's like, why is it not? And then you go into things like foreplay and emotional intimacy outside of the bedroom and all those other like it ended too quickly. You know, like all these, I would think that those are okay.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

I agree. That would be a different conversation than but painful could be one of those reasons, though. Why it's not a positive.

SPEAKER_06 18:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

But I think I took the word enjoyable out.

SPEAKER_06 18:40

Right. But I think that that's one would be like you would seek outside treatment, and then the other thing would be those others would be things that you need to work on within your relationship. They're all things you should communicate about. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_03 18:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 18:52

Are you saying that there's a greater push for communicating about how sex feels for you? Yes. Okay, then I misunderstood your original question.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

That's okay. I'm glad you took full responsibility for your hiccup. I forgive you.

SPEAKER_06 19:09

Should we elaborate on the your actual question?

SPEAKER_02 19:12

I don't even know what I was asking. I was like, I'm like, are I trying to externally process like what I'm thinking?

SPEAKER_06 19:21

Okay. And then Yeah, I mean, well, there's definitely like way more influencers than talking about how to help couples have driving me nuts.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Okay. Not it's become like a mini business. Sorry. Can we talk about this?

SPEAKER_06 19:36

Sex coaching. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

I find it irksome. Well, because I think it's I I think maybe I'm wrong. This is this is gonna be a catchphrase. Maybe I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_05 19:49

Maybe I'm wrong. But like I was gonna do that. I was gonna do the pre pre-kane with the pope t-shirt. Maybe I'm wrong, but dot dot.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

It's but dot dot dot on the back. But with one T. Sorry. Um But I I don't like the push to to start selling and coaching couples on how to have sex. I understand the need of like so so and this is something we'll get into when Christopher West starts talking, but like I understand the need for like I need practical advice on things. I I totally get that. But I think at some point, like you like you can't like some things like you have to learn with your spouse. Yep. Like this isn't this a third party.

SPEAKER_06 20:38

No, yes, like this isn't like a I think that there, I think that there's definitely like a very I I mean I've not ever gone to some sort of like coaching meeting or whatever, but um, I think that there's certain things that like become oversharing and like things that you shouldn't be sharing outside of your relationship with a stranger. And then also like what is their experience? Like, why are they able to coach about this topic? Like, what makes them an expert in this? And then also, yeah, I think that there's a lot, a lot of goodness that comes from being vulnerable and authentic with your spouse and trying things and failing at things and trying things and succeeding at them and having that worked out within the couple and not being like so-and-so suggested this, and it'd be like Yep. Why are they yeah, I think I think that there's a I think there's a reason why intimacy is meant to be between the couple.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

I don't like it. All right, so let's see what Christopher West has to say about how often couples have sex.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

But it's not just the quantity of sex, like how often a couple engages in the marital act with each other. It's The quality of it, what is happening in that act? Is it truly a marital act? And by that I mean, is it truly a participation and renewal, participation in and renewal of the marriage covenant? Are we speaking honestly with our bodies? Are we saying with our bodies, I give myself to you freely? I give myself to you totally. I give myself to you faithfully, and if it is God's will, let there be life. Is that the your thoughts?

SPEAKER_06 22:35

No, I want to hear yours because that face was like I didn't make a face. Full well, there's documentation. There was definitely a face.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

No, I one of the one of the issues that I struggle with when listening to Catholic speakers is that a question is asked, and it's I feel, and this is me again, I could be wrong, and it's very broad strokes, but I feel as though they are never directly answered. It's always let me give you foundational theology first. And then later at some point, you might hear the answer to your specific question. And I'm don't so again, I don't disagree with what he's saying.

SPEAKER_06 23:21

I I quality is important when it comes to sex, yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Yes, quality is important, and again, and the the you're renewing your marital vows with your body, and in order for that to be happening, it needs to be free, total, faithful, fruitful. Totally believe all of that. But I feel what I get nervous about is when when when and this is why I think a lot of Catholics, and I we actually talked talk to the teens about this, not didn't talk to that didn't talk to the teens about this specific thing, but more of like what we've done as like the millennial, I think millennial and under generations have like two different boxes. They have like the this is my faith, this is how I learn about my faith, and this is how and then the other box is how I learn to be human. And they go to all these other influencing influencers and content creators to learn about how to be a human because so many of the Catholic people do what Christopher West is doing. So, like if I just have a basic question of like how you know how often should me and my husband or me and my wife be having sex, and then I start getting marital marital theology course and I don't didn't have that. That's not what I was asking.

SPEAKER_06 24:26

Right. I learned that and I knew that, but what does that look like and what does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 24:30

So I yeah, and and I can see the Jordan Peterson, and then like that's when you get to like the whole like bringing a sex coach thing of like you just want the practicals. Like that's not good either to just be looking at the practicals. Um, and I don't feel like the specifically, maybe Christians have done like evangelicals have done this. I don't, I don't think they have. Like, I don't feel like there's Catholic creators, influencers that can do both and can speak the theology, and also, hey, practically, this is how this can look. Um, that's those that's my initial thoughts of like I and I think a lot of precana's do this too. Yeah, like they and this is and I this is what one of the things that's dangerous that that well it's one of the things that like our conversation about a precana. Monica and I are doing a precana at our parish, and one of the issues we usually give the sex talk there.

SPEAKER_06 25:20

And what I say Usually we have always for the last 10 years as soon as we got married. Yeah, as soon as our pastor found out that we don't mind talking about it, he's like, Great, I don't have to do this anymore because no one else will do it.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

But but so but one of the things I said to you is like, what's the point of talking about about theology of the body? Like they don't have any foundation for that. So like I I struggle with giving people found uh like uh high-level things when like they're they don't have that foundation yet.

SPEAKER_06 25:48

Yeah. So I also struggle too with like, okay, for like for example, you and I had that foundation that Chris for Russ is talking about in our marriage prep, right? Like that was part of our marriage prep, and we knew about that, but that still doesn't like okay, so now we're married and we're newlyweds and we're trying to figure this out and we're like, are we doing it right? Is this what is this what total free fruitful looks like?

SPEAKER_02 26:14

You know why is the quality still bad?

SPEAKER_05 26:20

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

I said it so that you didn't have to.

SPEAKER_05 26:24

You already said the thing about things being too short, so I wasn't speaking from current personal experience. Called out. But this is so red. Hopefully, we don't use this video.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

I'm keeping all the audio.

SPEAKER_05 26:42

I didn't say anything about the audio, I just said the video. My face is look, my hand and my face are different colors.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

But yeah, so like that's because most of the couples I broad strokes today, guys. I think most couples ask this question because the usually the husband wants to engage more often than the wife does.

SPEAKER_06 27:01

Yep. So then there becomes some sort of argument sometimes and like tension, kind of like what Jordan. I guess that's why I appreciate Jordan Peterson's perspective because he's been a he's been a counselor for so long, a psychologist for so long, that like he has watched couples broach this topic often, and like this is where so many practically are coming from. And it it does is a big source of tension. I would imagine that like after finances, sex is probably the second most thing that brings conflict to a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Yeah, we'll we'll we'll see by how many Donald's this episode gets. I guess so. Is this is this an issue? Um, because yeah, and I think the again, we haven't finished the video yet, but I think the best way to respond to something like this would be starting with Jordan Peterson's thing of like it because I think his answer also gives the impression like this is an important thing you should get right within your marriage. Yep. Um, and then going into like, okay, but there's more than just how often you engage, but also like these, I think for yeah, the I think quality was a I think the spiritual quality is important. I don't think because you say quality, and then the again, we could also just be like spiritually very qual, like the quality is great, but like physically it's not.

SPEAKER_06 28:18

Physical quality is not, yep.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

It's not, which is also important, which is part of the human box that like okay, people are gonna be like, my theology is great, spiritual quality is great, but I'm still positioned to try, right? Which is like that's and that's what you don't want people going on Google and then trying to, you know, yeah, because they they feel like the the church isn't giving them some sort of answers. Um, so that's those were my thoughts.

SPEAKER_06 28:40

Affirmed. I would say too, like, and I I don't know why Christopher West chose to respond to this. I don't know if he ever listened to more Jordan Peterson or not.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

So that's not he has, he has he's reacted to other things, um, which is where I got the idea of like we should react to this.

SPEAKER_06 28:55

Gotcha. So, but Jordan Peterson does speak a lot about the importance of intimacy outside of the bedroom, too, and like yeah, romance with your spouse and date nights and stuff. There's one, like I remember one time talking about like date nights, and he thought it was such a terrible idea until they got home from date nights and he was like, This is a great idea.

SPEAKER_05 29:15

And I remember him saying a joke like that.

SPEAKER_01 29:18

I like it.

SPEAKER_05 29:18

Anyway, carry on.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Carry on. Quality of this act. Is that what we are wanting to say? Or are we just saying, I have an itch and I need to scratch it, and you qualify to scratch my itch?

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Well, that's really important. And that's the that's the thing that I think Peterson can miss. Well, yes and no, because I I think to come to a consensus of like how often if you're having a good conversation and you're you you are uh open enough to your spouse and you trust them, like you would part of that would be like, I feel like you're using me. If you feel like you're being used. Um, and then you, if you're be the person who's using the other, like you should be open to like that criticism of like, oh, I probably am, because the person shouldn't be used that way as like an person who's scratching an itch.

SPEAKER_06 30:08

Right. I think that it's a really important thing to always be um self-reflective of like why am I desiring sex right now with my spouse? And like think about those motivations for that. Is it purely physical? Is it and also like, is it purely for affection? Like, am I using my spouse just to feel better about myself or about our relationship? Um, or is it holistic? Like, is it physically desiring your spouse as well as emotionally desiring them, as well as spiritually desiring that connection? Um, I think that it's really important to keep tabs on that for yourself, to keep tabs and always be considering how that feels within your relationship. Do you feel like that's mutual? Or do you feel like there are other reasons and then to be honest about that with one another? Um, but I think to completely also just like say any sort of physical arousal is something that you need to squash. I think you need to be careful about that too, because just because you're feeling physically aroused for your spouse doesn't mean that you are using them to scratch a niche, like necessarily. So I think it's also really important to be careful with the the trappings of like extreme purity culture. Like you can be physically aroused by your spouse and like your body's telling you that you want to have sex with them. That's doesn't inherently mean that you're using them.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Right. And the yeah, the difference comes in on what you do with the arousal. And that's what's what St. Jean Paul would say in Love and Responsibility. Because we have no control over our arousals, right?

SPEAKER_06 31:44

And and men are more quickly physically aroused, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Like that's the light switch versus the boiling the tea kettle or something.

SPEAKER_06 31:53

Yeah, boiling water. It's like so I think that it's also dangerous to just always blame men for wanting sex more often. It's like, well, their body's more readily prepared for that. So it's part of that is biology. So again, to like, what do you do with that arousal is with your will and your your virtue of chastity and things like that. But also to just like, oh men, they just always want sex. Like, well, they're physically aroused more often, probably. Like, so yes, their speech their body is speaking something to them. Um, and like, what are they doing with it? But but it's okay for a man to physically desire his wife.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Yeah. See, and I I would skew more to being more critical of it, and because I think the the push for virtue has been it's not it's not the same. And I think there's there's more of like pushing to that, even in in secular culture of of not being a slave to your passions. But I feel like for a while, yeah, I'd say generations older than us, like it was just sure, you know. Um, and because I the jokes I've heard before about like men just want one thing usually has come from older people that are 20 years older than me, sure talking about their spouses.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Um, so like I would say that and I can so I can see that in other other couples, other um marriages where the husband just like whenever he feels an urge, he feels like, hey, this is something I need now. Yeah, uh, because they have no self-control and they have no self-mastery. Right.

SPEAKER_06 33:24

And much of that comes from pornography and masturbation, and also just that general message that they've gotten that like, well, men just want sex and you can have it when you're married.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

It could also come from again, not having someone in a human formation realm being able to be like, hey, yeah, that's fine, you feel that way. That doesn't mean you have to act on it. Um and I guess I'm glad Christopher Russ is bringing it up. I would have liked Jordan Peterson to bring that up too, just from a a human element of like you you don't have to respond to every urge your body has. Your wife doesn't have a responsibility to satisfy every urge you have, um, and vice versa. Um so I feel like that's a that's a I'm glad he's bringing that up, but that that's an important thing in the conversation of how often. Because a husband could feel like he joked about four times a day, but like a husband could what there's there's husbands out there, I'm sure that could be like, yeah, that'd be amazing. And like that's that that's not okay if that's how you if you just because you have urges all that often doesn't mean that you need to satisfy all of those. Sure. So if anything, maybe the more virtuous thing for be would be for you to to like go once every month until you are able to control yourself to the to the point that like all right, I don't need to every time I feel like it.

SPEAKER_06 34:37

Yeah. If you do it in a again, like it has to be done in a virtuous, sacrificial, like fasting way, not in a begrudging, I'm just trying to prove a point.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:49

So, but yeah, no, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

If that's our attitude, if that's the quality of our marital act, it's not really a marital act. We're just using the other as an object to scratch my own itch. And that other person will rightly feel you have a utilitarian attitude towards me. I'm just an object for your own release here, and I don't care to engage in that kind of behavior. If married couples are focusing on those inner purifications that are required to learn how to love one another freely, totally, faithfully, and fruitfully, I believe in the normal course of events. Now, those trials are difficult, they're painful, not fun to go through, but the fruit that it bears is that the couple longs to become one.

SPEAKER_06 35:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

I can't be the first one to talk about it.

SPEAKER_06 35:49

I've been talking a lot too. Um, I was nodding along with that because I I would agree, right? Like anytime that you are practicing and working on your virtue building, there will be good fruits from that, right? So like that's that's the hope, and I've I've seen that happen in our marriage. Um I think I like that he said that, but then part of it is like the how, like, how do you go about doing that, especially now that you're married, right? There's a there's a lot of talk on how to do that when you're not married, right? Like you you stop looking at pornography, you stop masturbating, you don't have sex before marriage, you don't do this, you don't like, and now it's like a lot of well, like okay, now that sex is on the table, how do I still grow in the virtue of chastity when it's not a sin to have sex with my spouse? Yet I'm still not doing it properly ordered.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Well, one of the big issues, and this isn't um a Christopher S for Christopher West or Jordan Peterson issue, is it's the way that we consume content now, is that we assume that, and we mean meaning like the two of us and like everyone else who listens to any type of content, is we assume that in in this four-minute video, we're gonna get every answer we need to this question. So he so he's saying a lot of things. So he'll he'll even just saying like the the the small purifications that'll come up in in in trying to do this, and we'll assume like, okay, so we're just gonna be purified, and like we'll ask the question how and be like, wow, he didn't give me the answer. Jordan Peterson didn't give me the answer, how to get there. Therefore, I have to go look somewhere else, as opposed to like I don't and I don't know what the best way. Maybe like people need to read, maybe there needs to be books that have this in it. Um, or but I I kind of wish the church had more of the how to offer people because there's not like Christopher West answering this is probably gonna be the most um seen Catholic piece of content related to this topic. And but there's a lot more that goes into it that so like and I don't I and this could be like counter to what I was saying about the sex coaching. This isn't like a uh I don't mean like that people need to be coached through it, um, but I do think that there needs to be more couples speaking openly about what those purifications were like, how they went about them, so that others can learn from them. So like I don't mean that we need people coaching us directly. Yeah. And like, tell me more about your issues so we can help purify, but more of like we can hear that the sacrament of of marriage purifies you. Um, but like we and it could look different for everybody, but we also like there's a reason we have examples of saints for certain things, and we don't have enough married saints to be like, how did they so like we're just yeah, and how did they navigate like this part of their right?

SPEAKER_06 38:43

Like, I'm so glad that we have um the the Martin's saints, right? For and um Saint Therese of Lazou's parents, Zellie and Lewis, right? But like a lot of what they are known for is like parenting future nuns, right? Like that was that was like one of the things that you can see, they no one knows what their sex life was like, right? And so so we still don't have a lot of that as examples.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Um because like the latest thing that's come out in terms of sex has been theology of the body. And then it's since but like and as as great as that is, there's still a lot that the thing is left. I think that that's why you see such movements now within the Catholic influencer culture of like, let's speak more openly about this, let's have more questions. Yeah. Because we're finding that like that, this is area, these are areas where husbands and wives are still struggling, and they're very faithful couples, and they're still struggling because they don't have the the uh they don't have the tools to be able to navigate this well.

SPEAKER_06 39:47

Right. So, what were some of the mini tiny purifications that we went through in this?

SPEAKER_02 39:53

We don't have the time to go over all those.

SPEAKER_06 39:57

Uh but like you're saying, like, I feel like you're throwing out a teaser then because you're like, we need this, but then we're not gonna do it either.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

Maybe, maybe we'll write a book. Just give a few. Maybe we'll write a book.

SPEAKER_06 40:08

But just give a few.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

No, so one of the purifications I remember specifically having was the the thing about not you you not being an itch. Nope. You not being my my way of scratching an itch. Yeah. Right. And I remember that we we had a fight middle middle of the night. I don't know, 11, 11 p.m. Late at night. Um, and I just and I went and like I couldn't fall asleep because like I and this is I was I feel like I was being a child. I feel like I was being a child, and that's why I think I'm very harsh on husbands. Uh, because I I know one, I needed somebody to be harsh on me then, and like no one was there to call me out and be like, you're just being a baby. Um but I was being a child about it, and so I ended up taking my copy of Love and Responsibility and going to the bathroom and just reading. Um, I don't know if I told this story before on the podcast. Um, and then I remember reading, it's towards the end of the end of the book, um, a line that in I'm not gonna I'm not gonna remember it exactly, but St. Jean-Paul writes that that man needs to be convinced that he doesn't have to like um he doesn't have to fill every every urge that comes about. Um something along that along those lines. And like I read that and I was like, uh, and like I felt very called out. And I was like, okay, I don't have to fulfill every single urge. Okay, and then I went to bed and then I was and then and then like my mentality changed from there of like just because I have an urge and mindset. Yes. Sorry, I was built different. I became built different. Um, but like from there it became like, all right, every urge does not need it, doesn't even need a response. Like I could, it could just be a thing that okay, I feel this way and it can go. And like it's not a um, but that was that it took a lot of arguing and fighting, and it's and I felt bad because like you you had voiced this to me often and I was not listening because I it not because I was like, no, I love you, like of course I love you. Um but I didn't realize that my actions were the opposite of what my words were saying, um, and like even just the way I went about it was the opposite. Um so that's and there's more there's more to that, but we don't have time.

SPEAKER_05 42:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:14

Is that enough? Is that a good sign?

SPEAKER_06 42:16

I guess so, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Did you did that did that not satisfy the I'm satisfied? No, like the you want you wanted me to give a short prevocation is like that what you meant?

SPEAKER_06 42:25

No, yeah, I agree. Yes, that was what I meant. Like just what is an example of one thing that we did to work on this. So from my perspective, after you working on more self-control and being more willing to um to just give you a back rub? To just give me a back rub instead of it having to lead to something else. Then there was also a a recognition for me though that um that for me I I would be emotionally and spiritually intimate with you, but maybe like physically not in the mood at that, like at that moment, and realize that that that's okay to like begin to engage in sexual intimacy, even if I wasn't aroused at the very beginning, because you know, I'm tired or the the it was a long day, or my mind is kind of some is in a hundred different directions or whatever. And to realize that, like, if I'm going to wait for the perfect scenario to happen for us to have sex, then that's we're gonna be waiting for a very long time, you know, like for all of the boxes to be checked, for everything to be perfect, for the candles to be lit and the temperature in the room to be right, and no kids to have bothered me all day long. And you know, like it's just not gonna happen. So I think for me, it was also a like I need to be I need to acknowledge kind of like what Christopher West saying, like the greater thing of sex and not like. Like, wait for my physicality to catch up to that. That like that's not going to necessarily switch my body into being like ready in that moment. It will get there as we start to engage in the physical part of things.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

That's it.

SPEAKER_06 44:18

All right, CRISPR Ross, what else do you have to say?

SPEAKER_01 44:22

In a healthy, holy way and in their own relationship, due to their own dispositions, with respect for their own dispositions, they will find, if they're facing truly those inner purifications that are required, they will find a rhythm of frequency that is appropriate to their own personal dispositions. Again, I I think the emphasis should be on the quality and not the quantity or the frequency in frequency is what he was saying.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

In case you couldn't tell.

SPEAKER_06 45:10

I would agree with that. I do think though that it's okay for you to wonder within yourselves, like, is our frequency I think it's one barometer of your like overall intimacy with your spouse. Like it your frequency or lack of frequency could be, yeah, one way for you to just take an evaluation of where you guys are at emotionally and spiritually and physically. Um obviously, like we've said before, like your your external circumstances aside, um to just to just have those honest conversations. Like, do you feel like we are being, do you feel like we're having enough sex to reflect where we are in our relationship right now?

SPEAKER_04 46:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:00

Um and do you desire more or or less and why? And like to really discuss that because I think that I think that there's a fear too of does it always need to be spontaneous or should we schedule it? Is scheduling it unromantic? And like there, and again, I like we can't answer that for your relationship, but those could be questions that you could ask. Like if you're unifying unsatisfied or dissatisfied with how often, like maybe you should start scheduling it a little bit, like making sure that you prioritize having sex. Because if you're waiting for again, if you're if you were like me and you're waiting for the day to go perfectly, you're gonna be waiting a long time. And is that really fair? Like, are you prioritizing your marriage over the other tasks that you have in your day? Are you seeing sex as a task? If you are, why? Is it your own issue, or is it because your other spouse is trying to satisfy something? But like if if you guys are emotionally connected, then is it, are you being used, yes or no? Like it's all it's there's a lot to consider here. Um, and and it's a and again, it's a relationship. So there's going to be two parts to those reasons.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

Right. And I think, yeah, so it's there's not a set answer from the church. Like it's funny when people like put in the different groups, like, what does the church say specifically about this? Um, this is very subjective to the couples because every couple is unique, um, and individuals are unique. Um, but I think a good way to I the way I think I would coach or coach, I would tell a young couple to go about it would be, or even any couple who's struggling with this, is to go Jordan Peterson's route first and just start the conversation of like, what are we comfortable with? Whatever you end up deciding you're comfortable with, from there you start building and seeing like, okay, what areas of our intimate life are lacking, and those areas need to start being purified. What's gonna how is that gonna happen? What conversations do we have to have? Um yeah. So I don't think it's an either-or, but I think you could use both of their their approaches and then eventually over time, like a couple, like he and like Durham Peterson said, like a couple does kind of eventually come to a thing that works, and so did Christopher West. Yeah, um, but I think it's important to to account the physical and the spiritual health, yeah, and not just look at it as either or either or and put them in boxes, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:27

And um, just to kind of piggyback on like we were talking about different situations, yeah, with um NFP involved, because I know sometimes some couples are like, well, then NFP really kind of adds another layer of complicated complexity or complication to that. Um, and so just like a practical recommendation is if you're in a season of trying to avoid, and so therefore your windows of opportunity are less frequent, then yeah, maybe it is really important for you to prioritize sexual intimacy during your times of infertility so that you can you can show your spouse that like that even when you were most desiring of it, you still desire them in times where you feel less willing. Um, and then if you are in a season of trying to achieve pregnancy, and that can also be very hard because you feel like you're constantly scheduling sex um to really work on the emotional and spiritual intimacy at that time as well. So you don't feel like you're being used just to be fruitful. Like remember that there's all of those pieces of the covenant, not just fruitfulness. So um to make sure that you're communicating that with one another so you don't feel that that part's lacking.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

I like it.

SPEAKER_06 49:51

So that's our response to a response. Let us know your response.

SPEAKER_02 49:54

A reaction.

SPEAKER_06 49:55

Sorry. I'm not cool. That's our reaction to a reaction of a reaction to a question. Let us know your reactions.

SPEAKER_02 50:05

There you go. Let us know if you liked this style style of episode. Uh yeah, but no, thank you for your being here. Thank you for your support. Uh, we hope that we are able to just spark conversations with the conversations we had.

SPEAKER_06 50:21

We'll see you at the next episode.