Two Become Family: Restoring Confidence in Catholic Marriage and Family life

When Should Wives Submit? Part 1

• Episode 92

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How should married couples understand submission in marriage? Is it an outdated practice or a misinterpreted piece of Christian wisdom? In this episode we react to Fr. Mike's video and explore the true essence of submission in marriage. Drawing from ideas of Pope St. John Paul II along with our experience in marriage, we challenge the false dichotomy of Ephesians 5 that is often presented. We highlight the importance of mutual submission and the role that trust and complementarity play. And at the end we realize we have so much more to say! Stay tuned for part 2, We're so happy you're here with us, let's jump in!

Watch the original video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_CE2UkRknw

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Speaker 1:

You're listening to Precana with the Pope, a podcast aimed at restoring confidence in marriage and family life. Welcome everyone to another episode of Precana with the Pope. We're still here because the last episode was a hit, so we might as well keep doing this, not to pat our own egos or anything, but more because it seems like the conversation, at least that we had last week was one that people wanted to listen to. You got feedback that people were able to finally start having conversations with each other. Spouses were able to talk to one another after the conversation we had.

Speaker 1:

So we decided to do another episode and also we're going to try to keep with this format of reacting to things because, in all honesty, we are not running out of content, it's just it's harder to so. This is the thing. It's difficult and you can jump in whenever you want, but it's difficult to come up with the topics that are relevant to what people are thinking about without hitting on the same things that everyone else is talking about. And then the problem is in terms of research. You start watching and like, all right, what have they said? What can we say differently? And that just doesn't seem natural anymore, because one thing I like is that we're able to just have conversations.

Speaker 2:

And we don't want to script these things out or over research. We have something that we want to talk about, but we're kind of A lot of what we do is we process some of this before the episode and we chat about it before the episode, but a lot of it is us in real time talking about these topics and processing them and thinking them through, and a lot of what you hear is our authentic reactions to certain things or conflicts or whatever. And so yeah, but since last week's episode seemed to be shareable, we got a lot of new listeners last week. So maybe this format, this style, is something that other people want as well, so we're going to keep trying it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So today we're going to do another I don't know hot topic. I don't know how many this compared to the last episode, which was on sex. I don't know how applicable this issue is, but also we also don't want to just be like, make this a sex podcast, because it's not, because there's other aspects of marriage that are important. So today we're going to talk about Ephesians 5 and submission. Again, We've done I don't know what episode it is, We've done this a couple times in different ways.

Speaker 1:

But what we want to do today, which I thought would be neat, is to react. I don't want to say we're responding to the videos that we're going to watch, but more reacting to them and giving our thoughts on them. One is by Father Mike and the other is Andy Stanley, who we don't agree with everything he's about right now. So we're going to respond just to this part of a sermon he gave Andy Stanley. For those of you that don't know that are Catholic, he is a evangelical Actually. He might be Baptist technically, but he's a Protestant pastor who is now Not as liked as he used to be, but I still think the point that he made are pretty valid and worth bringing up. Both the pros and cons of both videos, so I think that's cool.

Speaker 1:

Anything else you want to say before we jump?

Speaker 2:

in. Yeah, I think that you said that you don't know how relevant this is. I think that this is a. I think that this is definitely a topic that gets covered a lot, and I hope that our way of doing it and more conversation style is helpful for couples to again to just start conversations amongst yourselves so you might have your ideas, you might have your beliefs. You've heard this influencer say this and this priest say that and hopefully this. We're obviously going to share our thoughts on it but also just hopefully model a conversation so that you guys can do that as well.

Speaker 1:

All right, so we're going to jump in. He's already presented, he's already done his this is. This is how he starts his videos, All right, but he's going to go jump right in and the title of this video that we're reacting to is Do Wives have to Be Submissive?

Speaker 3:

So here is the scripture that is read in mass on Sundays, occasional Sundays. Here's the scripture that some people even choose to have at their weddings. Here's the scripture that sometimes people in the Bible in a year, or even they're just stumbling through the New Testament and they come across Ephesians, chapter five, and they hit this line that says wives, be submissive to your husbands and all things as to the Lord, and all of a sudden, just like whoa, what is happening? In fact, when that comes up in the lectionary right in the cycle of readings on Sundays, sometimes it's just like what is happening. What are we going to say? Even there might even be an option to like skip it or to like go over this when people choose it for their weddings, all the I don't want to fast forward to this, but he's just talking about why it's controversial.

Speaker 1:

So did he say what the verse was? Wives be submissive.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay 521.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

I don't know, but like, is it worthwhile hearing why it's controversial? No, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Okay, we'll be going. This is why it's controversial. It's just the and people want to skip it Looking back and forth, like, did they actually?

Speaker 3:

There's Catholic YouTube, there's Catholic Twitter, there's Catholic all these things, and there's this kind of like, this rise and people talking about yeah, that's what we do, here's what it is. Husbands, you are leaders, you lead your wife, you lead your family. Men be leaders, and I'm all about men taking responsibility for themselves, making men taking responsibility for the people around them to build that are under their care. But what does it mean to say, okay, guys, you need to lead, you need to lead your family, you need to lead your wife, you need to lead her, and also, she needs to submit to you and all things as to the Lord, I think what does that actually mean?

Speaker 1:

This is important. The reason this verse and the understanding of this verse is so important is because we have seen a trend in just Christianity in general. I think very broadly in Christianity that it tends to be more, it tends to appeal more to women, so you see less men in it. I think in the 1960s, 1970s there was a movement in partisan circles called Muscular Christianity, which is very interesting that that was a thing then. It's becoming a thing now.

Speaker 1:

They don't call it muscular Christianity now, but the idea was that Christianity was a way of growing in virtue. So there's a small group of partisans who would consider themselves part of muscular Christianity because they felt like the popular version of Christianity that was out there was more feminine. The songs are more feminine, the prayers and the idea of sharing your feelings and praying to God for help and stuff seemed more feminine to them. So they wouldn't appeal to them. And I think we have a lot of that now, to the point that it's not atypical to see a mom bring her kids to church and the dad stay home or not be present. So I think we should emphasize to all married Catholic couples that Ephesians 5 applies to the husband and he can't just assume that his wife is going to take care of the faith lives of herself and the children, and then they need to lead, they need to be active, they need to be involved, and I think that's an important part of this verse that can't be overlooked, right?

Speaker 2:

It can't be overlooked.

Speaker 1:

You can't just forget that this is a part of it, because I can see people being like they're uncomfortable with the whole verse, the idea of being submissive, so therefore let's throw it out. But then I feel like you lose the, not the incentive, but you lose the command, like the onus and the responsibility that the husband is supposed to own. It's not there anymore because I don't know, am I making sense?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, I had my wheels turning while you were talking. Sorry, yeah, I think that. So things that I was thinking of were like you had been. You've been reading a leadership book for work yes, right. And then I we've talked about reading Brene Brown's Daring Greatly, and she has a leadership book that is like based on that popular book.

Speaker 1:

Leading Greatly, leading Greatly. That's not it. No, I was just joking.

Speaker 2:

Dare to lead, dare to lead, dare to lead, the other part of her title, and so, you know, when we hear leader, I think that there's so many different perceptions of what a leader is and how to lead and what an effective leader is and stuff, and I think that a lot of, because that's now a trend in like literature and motivational speakers and coaches to try to like help build up future leaders. It's like what does leadership even really mean, you know, and like, yeah, what is the task at hand? And I wonder if these leadership skills are not being modeled and taught to boys and men like effectively as well. Like is that? Could that be part of it? That like how do I lead my family? What does that mean? What does that look like?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, peter Kriff talks about this a lot in his like writings about how, because culturally we don't necessarily have a religion, we tend to go to like self help and pop psychology a lot, like he likes to call out pop psychology a lot and not that brain, a brown stuff, is all pop psychology. But I do think that because we don't, I do think that the church could teach on all these things if it tried to to an extent, and I think that because we don't get formation in certain areas, like we, and we I think we talked to us about this in last podcast last episode that we, since we don't see formation and leadership in how to do that, we start looking at like secular culture for it. So, yeah, I think you're right. I think that's why you see a lot of this stuff popping up everywhere, because men and women both have this desire to lead well in whatever capacity they have and or wherever there's fierce influences, and because the church doesn't really give them direction on how that's what's that supposed to look like?

Speaker 2:

Like. What does that look like in your home and in a marriage? And things like that, like you might have had that in high school if you were like a team captain or you know. I'm trying to think of like, and even in the workforce you work on your leadership. There's different programs that help you work on your leadership skills. But like what? Does it mean to you know, or. I think a military, like leaders in the military. I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, there's even a. There's a book called how to lead when you're when you're not in charge how to lead when you're not in charge, I believe it's called, and there's one analogy he used in there about how we learn leadership from. I think he says, like one of the first ways we've learned about the word leadership is the game follow the leader, which usually means like we all, when, as your little kid, you're all walking in a line and you do whatever the first person does and everyone's got a copy, and you assume like that's what leadership is, is like one person's in charge and they tell everyone else what to do and if you're a follower you have to. And I think we create a dichotomy like that Of like you're either a follower or you're a leader, so so like so. Then I see the idea of submission in families be be skewed because, like, women may not want to even encourage their husbands to be leaders if they feel like a leader is someone who just tells you what to do.

Speaker 2:

Fosses your own, yeah.

Speaker 1:

And then, and then you're either a leader or you're a follower. If we have that false dichotomy in our head, dichotomy being like dichotomy is the thing, like there's one or the other, so like it's a false narrative that we create, but like. If we feel like if I make my husband leader, then that means I'm a follower, like there's no other option, there's no incentive to make this very controversial. Right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Which would make, but then you also then left with like then you're not saying all husbands are. I tend to lean as very like, very tough on husbands, sorry. But then you have husbands who are just like not involved in any faith in anything, and I wonder sometimes if wives prefer that, because the alternative is, like I have someone who maybe can be perceived as an Oaf I'm not calling him that, but like then he's telling me what to do, like he doesn't even know how to do XYZ, like why would I follow him Right? Like there's that so yeah.

Speaker 1:

Am I being too harsh?

Speaker 2:

No, I think that that's a lot of where this controversy comes from, like why people have a hard time with this with this reading.

Speaker 1:

But I also think this is that also shows why we need it, Because I feel like if a husband is home and like isn't someone that the wife can trust to lead them, like that's a problem that we need to be addressing For sure In some way. But keep going.

Speaker 3:

Great question, Question camper, because I don't think it means what you might think. It means In fact.

Speaker 1:

let's go to the beginning. So what it means to be submissive, for a wife to be submissive.

Speaker 3:

In Ephesians, chapter 5, I think it's verse 21, st Paul begins this whole section by saying be mutually submissive to each other out of reverence for Christ. So, be mutually submissive to one another out of reverence for Christ. Here's the first thing. One is Paul is saying submit to each other.

Speaker 3:

You know, I've talked to couples who have said that they hear this, and now I'm, from the outside it's like, oh, it just seems so, like I don't know it's not kind of cringy, but from the inside I talked to this bride and groom just the other day and they were saying this. They were saying well, the bride was saying, well, I just I trust him and so, so, yeah, I want to follow his lead. And she said that just makes sense for me. And I said, yes, this is the whole context that St Paul is talking about when he says be mutually submissive to one another out of reverence for Christ. Number one this is mutually submissive. So this is husband and wife submitting to the other right, mutually submissive. Secondly, what is it to submit? What is it to be submissive? It is to place yourself under the mission submission.

Speaker 1:

I like Father Mike a lot. I have two thoughts. Do you have any thoughts?

Speaker 2:

first, before I I want you to go first, because what I have to say well, I can follow up with what you're going to say. Do you know what I'm going to say?

Speaker 1:

I'm going to say two different things.

Speaker 2:

The general direction where you're going.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I'm going to do the different things. One, the mutually submissive focus. No, the focus on being mutually submissive is almost exclusively JP2, right, so that it wasn't really. I don't. I have not read anything about mutual submission until he starts writing about it.

Speaker 2:

So that's not in scripture. That phrase is not in scripture.

Speaker 1:

No, it is Well. No, the word mutually submissive is not, it does, says it does. You can pull up, actually, because we're on the internet, we're live doing this, sorry. So in Ephesians 21, it says be subject to one another out of reference for Christ. So the word mutually submissive is not in scripture, but the idea of both everyone be subject to one another. That's in there.

Speaker 1:

But my point being that it's not a bad thing that mutual submission is being emphasized now, because I think that was a big emphasis of JP2 anytime he did exegesis, which exegesis is like the explanation, or like drawing out meaning from scripture based on tradition, and like context and everything. I think that JP2 brought a lot of light to Ephesians 5 through that, because prior to that the emphasis wasn't necessarily on the mutual submission but more on the roles of husband and wife. So like if you read the other encyclicals, if you read the other writings of the saints, like they focused on, like the husband is the head and the wife needs to submit, and like that was just emphasized a lot. And then JP2, and I think this is through a development of doctrine like it, and not necessarily doctrine, because this isn't like a sound like the Trinity or something like that, but just develop development of the understanding of what, what St Paul is writing here and how the Holy Spirit is still speaking to that in our context, in our culture. So JP2 focuses on mutual submission, which so I think that's a big positive and I but I think that, as Father Mike moves to what a submission mean, it means to be under the mission of.

Speaker 1:

I struggle with that because that's that's taking what JP2 is saying and then move, moving it to like moving to a direction that I'm like I don't. That's not what the text actually says, because the word submission isn't in the text, right? So in the actual letter of Ephesians 5, st Paul writes the word be subject to right. So he says be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. So that's not the same word as submission, so like St Paul, even in different translations.

Speaker 1:

Well, so, like, so maybe, maybe in the other translations it could be submission, but like they could also say, like the sorry so the way, like that, when people, when, when theologians and scholars translate scripture so they may not even necessarily be Christian, depends on like what committee, but like they get together and they look at the original text of Greek and they look at the whole thing in context and the in most, most, what, mostly what happens is like they'd look at everything and try to make it make sense, because sometimes, like the phrases that they use, like same as like. If you ever actually you've never translated things from Spanish, I have, but so like I can say a thing to you in Spanish and if I directly translate it to English word for word, it makes no sense yeah yeah, yeah, like it doesn't.

Speaker 1:

It doesn't make sense. So I have to translate it in a way that will make sense in English. If I'm translating it from Spanish in the same way, like when they're taking Greek text there, they could be translating it in a way that, like this, won't make sense to an audience. How can I make it make sense to a English speaking audience? Fun fact did you know that? If you do, you know that episode on bluey when she's talking like when she meets that French friend and like they're playing at the park?

Speaker 2:

there's a river. They're playing, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So if you watch that episode in blue in French, he speaks English. Oh, wow, it's really funny. Okay, back to. Greek.

Speaker 2:

Well done.

Speaker 1:

Bluey. Back to Greek. I have ADHD, but so, like, if you they take the, you have to make it make sense, make sense for an English speaking audience. So some translations may use submission. So be, be submissive to one of our references, christ, the. So, like, if we look here, so Monica and I are going to jump on one of my favorite tools because I'm a nerd is Bible Hub. So in Bible Hub you could it's like you could look at different translations of scripture or whatever, but I like looking at the actual text itself. And then when you go to and I'm walking right through this, but so as you go here, you can actually look at what the word is in Greek. So you can actually look at what, what words are being used. And then if you click the word so if I click the word Greek, in Greek of submissive, of subject, it gives me the actual word in Greek. And then if I click that Greek word, it says where else has it been used in scripture? So the word to be subject to I'm not going to try to pronounce it in Greek, but it's it means to submit one, to submit yourself, to be, to be subject to, let's see where else has it been used and that's the word there.

Speaker 1:

Sorry, this is going to be so To do, kind of this pointed with that one. There, it is Okay, this is better. Why does it only show in these two occurrences? It definitely shows up more, yeah, but I definitely have looked this up before and it's shown more. Hold on, oh, see, this is English ones. That's why I'm not in the strongs. Nope, nope, hold on, sorry, sorry, now I'm Okay.

Speaker 1:

So this is it, sorry. I knew that. I knew there was more Sorry. So like sorry. So, if you look at the Greek that that's being used, the same word in Greek in terms of be subject to one another and then why is it be subject to your husband's is the same thing with demons being subject to Jesus' name, people being subject to the law. So the word that's being used is not the same word as submissive, and then going into being under the mission of. So like I, because that's also like submissive in English means this, and then that means to be under the mission of, but like. That's not what the word is being used Like. The same word that's being used is similar to the word that's being used for demons being subject to Christ. So, like I think that's, I just think that's important, that like the subjectness and being subject means a different thing, like there's still a hierarchy.

Speaker 1:

There's a hierarchy and like, like if you think, like if you and I think this can be pushing it too much to be like it's the same as demons need to be subject to Christ, the way that demons would be subject to Christ, that's how wives should be subject to their husbands. Like I think that's a little harsh to say it without context, but that's also the word that St Paul is using. So I don't think you do it justice by trying to soften it by using the English translation to explain it. Does that make sense? So like there is a level of hierarchy and authority that is being talked about here, first out of two one another, out of reverence for Christ. So I think it's important to unpack, but not necessarily through the idea of being under the mission of. So that was my, that's my full thought.

Speaker 2:

I like it.

Speaker 1:

Were you were you gonna say that I thought you had two points. That was my second point. My first point was oh, the JP2 being mutually submissive part.

Speaker 2:

Yes. So the point I wanted to pick, the like make sure isn't lost that he brought up was speaking to a new bride and her willingness and not acceptance, but like her enthusiasm for this idea because she trusts her husband, and I think that that's a really, really important thing. That, like if we have engaged couples listening or couples that are dating, that like I think that this is extremely important to consider in your relationship of do you trust your future spouse. And then also like, like this is a gut check, but like husbands and wives, like, do you trust your spouse, that they like do you trust your husband that they would lead and be a good leader Because that's part of their call, that's part of their job as a husband. And like, do you think that the person you're with is up for the job, up for the task? Like, are they ready for it? Do you trust them with that? And I think that that's really important.

Speaker 2:

And if the answer is no or you have some sort of hesitation, I think that that's a really big thing that needs to be addressed. Like, why? Where is that? Where is that gap in trust happening? Where is that hesitation coming from? Is it part of it because you're a control freak, cause I know that's part of my issue, you know, like. Is it that? Or is it because he does things differently from you and you don't understand it? Or is there really some, some lack of virtue that he's not prepared to be a leader for and like? That needs to? That needs to be addressed. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I don't know if my next point is worth bringing up now, Cause I don't know what the rest of. I didn't watch the whole video before.

Speaker 2:

That's why we were reacting to it.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

To bring it up and then Well.

Speaker 1:

So I think another point worth bringing up is with what you're saying, cause he brings up the bride trusting the husband Doesn't necessarily bring up the husband trusting the bride. I do think I do agree with mutual submission, cause it's in scripture, it's clear, it's clear in scripture. I like I agree with what JP two saying. I think the point that a lot of people struggle with is like well, does that mean we both are? We both are subject to each other in the same way, and I think that's no, because there needs to like. There's a difference between us and the difference is good, cause of complementarity, and therefore we're not subject to one another in the same way. We are subject to one another on a reference for Christ, In the same way that, like you could, you could say that he's. If you want to extrapolate this for the, for wider congregation, oh my brain, I'm trying to keep it on one.

Speaker 3:

I'm trying to keep it on one.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so wait, no, this is important for wider congregation. So, if you look at, sorry, we should have started with this, like the letter of St Paul to the Ephesians. This is a big if you look at it, what do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2:

I think so Well, we'll see. Okay, Cause I just I thought I did.

Speaker 1:

Cause this is so. I didn't get to take a the epistles of St Paul course in my grad class Just cause I didn't have enough time to take another additional course. But I ended up seeing what their syllabus was and I bought their textbooks anyway.

Speaker 1:

So, I bought their textbooks, I read through them, so one of them is on. Is is from a secular author, but just like a historicity of all the letters of St Paul, and he talks about how the writing, the writing of the letter Ephesians is more of like the thought has been. It's like a deeper theology, more mature theology than some of the other earlier writings of St Paul, and he doesn't think like they were putting out evidence that it wasn't necessarily written for the church in Ephesus, that that was that's actually not mentioned in the earliest writings, like earliest copies of it, and that the way it writes it's more like a summary that could have been actually passed around from all of Asia Minor, just all the different churches. So like cause it's? They're saying it reads more like a homily than it does for a letter for a specific church that needs to change things, but more of a homily to like uplift the Christians in that area.

Speaker 2:

So it's written really for people who are practicing the faith.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Like there are people that are living Christianity, that are striving for all the things that Christ wants for them In Asia Minor. And, and so it's like an affirmation and further like detailed directives for them, but they already have this foundation of Christianity.

Speaker 1:

And from chapter one all the way to six, like he's walking them through the entire gospel message. What's what's? You know the works of the Holy Spirit, even leading up to this part of Saraswati V. So I've talked about the Holy Spirit, so it could. It reads like a homily that he's doing to uplift that, that area. So like this idea of Husband's being subject, or sorry about mutual subjection, why he's being subject Husband loves your wives, like that's. That's something that he was preaching to a wider audience in just Ephesus, which I think is really important. And then back to my idea of like well, and I think you and I are subject to one another in very different ways. Like we are subject to our kids in a very unique way as their parents, so like I have a responsibility to them that I think they could call me out on if I wasn't doing it right, like you, if we were letting one of our kids know almost their name that you gave her away.

Speaker 2:

I gave her away, I gave her away. You're a good girl.

Speaker 1:

Like they, that they needed to wear pajamas to bed, because we love them and they want to take care of them.

Speaker 2:

Yes, starting to get cold, starting to get cold out, and they're like if we're not doing our job as parents like they're.

Speaker 1:

they're not. They're going to take you away from us because we're supposed to be doing our jobs as parents and just like letting them know like we have a responsibility to you to do certain things and like I think that's a form of subjection to them and the same way they're subject to us as as were their parents. But like it's, that falls, I think that falls under the mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ. Like we're, we're following our vocations the way we ought to. Out of reverence for Christ, interesting.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but even just like you're reframing a little bit of subjection, is that like, like us living that duty, that responsibility, is subjection to the call of parenthood, even though we in that are being leaders, right, like we're expected to lead in our subjection to the vocation of parenthood?

Speaker 1:

Right. And if you look at the word subjection like, that's back to like the Greek of like the Jews being subject to the law. Yeah. Like they, they were called to something to live out this thing in a certain way and there was repercussions for not doing it.

Speaker 1:

So, they're subject to us, so like we could be subject to one another because, like we as Christians were called to live out our vocations in a particular way. So I think that's where, like the mutual subjection and I think I again, people may not get lost in the weeds with this as much as I do, but I think there's there I think this interpretation of it could bring more people together to see, like this isn't a like either your wife has to ask you if she can tie her shoes, or like you have to be a stay home dad, like there's such huge like like the pendulum swings way too far with this verse, in my opinion, and I think there's a way of seeing this as like this is a calling for the entire family, for the spouses, that can bring to greater holiness in the church. I like it.

Speaker 1:

We'll keep going.

Speaker 3:

It's to place yourself under the mission of the other person. And so, in the context of marriage, here's this bride who says oh yeah, I totally trust this man that I want to give my life to us, my life with. And so she said for me it makes sense, it's organic, it's natural to trust him, to place myself under his mission, because we have the same worldview. I know his mission, I trust his mission, I love his mission, I can place myself under his mission. And he likewise says the same thing, saying I know her, I love her, I trust her, I know her mission, I can place myself at the service of her mission. So that's the first part that I get it.

Speaker 1:

I don't like it but. I get it, I get what he's saying and I get like it's, so in and of itself it's not wrong.

Speaker 2:

Right, like his sentiment.

Speaker 1:

It's not wrong.

Speaker 2:

That's good. Well, I guess.

Speaker 1:

I struggle with. I struggle with the idea of the like I have a mission and you have a mission and we're under the surface of that mission. Does that make sense? Because I feel like it has. We have two separate missions.

Speaker 2:

When you believe we have the same mission.

Speaker 1:

We should.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I agree, right.

Speaker 1:

So like what was the phrase? Oh, we're going to forget it again that our friends not a oh, not a, not a compromise, but A shared vision A shared vision Like. I feel like that's what it ought to be more of than like.

Speaker 2:

But I've heard this sentiment shared in that, like we are both under the same mission, submission, we're under the same mission. I've heard it said that way, instead of like Okay, maybe I'll let them finish Individual missions.

Speaker 1:

I don't like it, but I'll let them finish.

Speaker 2:

Okay.

Speaker 3:

The submission is I'm placing myself under your mission. I will only do that. I will only do that if I love, respect, trust the other person, if I actually believe in their mission, and then in that case that makes sense. So what is mutual submission? It is a mutual race to the bottom.

Speaker 2:

So, husband and wife, your eyebrows said Well, I want to hear what he asked us. What does he mean by that?

Speaker 1:

Okay, ideally.

Speaker 3:

They would love, respect and trust the other. They would know the mission of the other. They'd be so united in that mission that it would be a race to the bottom, a race to serve. And this is the key, again, when it comes back to this okay, men, you got to lead your family, you got to lead your wife, you got to lead your lead. Lead them, just lead them. Like, okay, that means I got to, like I'm in charge. That means, okay, I'm going to make the decisions. Even brides will say something like that, like, yeah, I guess that means that you know he makes the decisions in the family. That means he's in charge of the family. I don't. Is that what it means? Is that what Christian fatherhood, christian husbandhood, christian leadership means? I think that we are paying attention to one part and not paying attention to both.

Speaker 1:

I want to stop it to come in. Cause I feel like it's just going to keep going. No, you go for it. You have things you want to say.

Speaker 2:

My eyebrows are raising. I mean, I didn't like the way that was phrased.

Speaker 1:

race to the bottom, you know what Andy Stanley calls it.

Speaker 2:

What.

Speaker 1:

Which I also disagree with a submission competition.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's catchy.

Speaker 1:

He's good, those parsons we might get to this video.

Speaker 2:

We were supposed to stick to a tight 45 and it's 36 minutes.

Speaker 1:

We're going. No, there was a couple of technical issues.

Speaker 2:

Anyways, I okay, so I get it. When I was coaching, one of the things I did when I named captains was talked about how Jesus led through service and that captains are meant to be the greatest servers on the team. And like I use the story of the last supper and Jesus washing their feet and like that is how captains are supposed to treat their teammates. So like I get absolutely. Like we should be serving one another. That is absolutely our call as spouses. Is to like is to die to oneself for the good of the other. Right, and like I guess maybe that's what it is Like. Race to the bottom is to like forget about yourself, you know, and serve the other guy. Go ahead. You are.

Speaker 2:

So, but I think that we have to be careful not to be so gray or so like wishy washy or there's so many ways to like live this out. I was listening to a podcast. Actually was interesting. I'm going to be careful not to be too judgy, but I don't listen to podcasts, so this is big hypocrite of me. I'm finally listened to one and I'm going to be judgy about it. Um so it was a.

Speaker 2:

It was a woman who brought a man on to talk about what happens when spouses don't agree on NFP, practicing NFP, whether they have just reasons for NFP, or one wants to practice and one doesn't want to practice and will have you and like what should you do? And it was very interesting because she kept talking about both and and nuanced and everyone's situations different, and he kind of kept saying, like you're answering that so feminine and I disagree and I feel like I have a more masculine approach. But like there are definitely, like some, some reasons too and some reasons not to, and like it's it's really important that we know those and that, like, we talk about them and we call each other out when we're being selfish and we call each other out when we're being.

Speaker 2:

It was just. It was very interesting and and I felt like he didn't get to talk as much because she didn't like what he's saying. She kind of took tangents, but I I do think that there are some very definite like oh, I have to listen to everything he says. No, not like, not everything that comes out of your husband's mouth is exactly what you should do, but like, at a certain point there is a time where, like, somebody has to make a decision and the other goes with it, and then you have to, like, in your marriage, you have to get to a point where you trust the leadership of the husband to make the call.

Speaker 1:

You know it's funny, I I in this, um, I know I feel like when we talk about this I skew more on the, not like on the side of the woman, but like I tend to skew more like I'm harsher on the husband's and like they need to step up and do what they have to do and serve their wives. And, and I think you, you tend to skew more on like gotta trust your husband, and right to me. And I like that because like we balance each other well, because I agree, I agree with that, um, and I think what's nice at least for us is that like I am not a big hulking deep voiced man.

Speaker 1:

So like, and like you could hear my jokes and my flamboyancy like I, it's great, so like it. Clearly, I don't have you, like I'm not ruling over you with a Peruvian thumb, like it's, it's just uh, so like, but I, I, I agree with you and I like the way that we live this out, um, because I, I don't know, maybe this is oversharing, but I feel like for most of our conversations, um, like almost everything is a partnership, um, and, if anything, for most things, I just defer to you because I, I know the things you're better than me at, and like it's foolish for me to think that, like I should have, I should have like final say over aspects of our life that, like I am not as educated in, I am not as um savvy in, like it'd be really it'd be foolish and poor leadership to do that, and I feel like that's an important aspect of leadership that we forget Like there's there's a delegating, but also that like realizing, like you are, you're limited in your abilities, um.

Speaker 2:

Well, in that like and I going back to the team analogy or the situation but like, yeah, the captain is not the like, it's not the captain's not always the MVP, it's not always the star player, but it's also not the entire team. They are part of the team.

Speaker 2:

Like, you still need your team to be successful and they have skills that you don't have you. You need the. You need to all be coming together and and working together in order to be successful in a team. So I I think that that's absolutely true in marriage and I think, like I think particularly especially like in our season right now, a lot of the daily decisions are parenting decisions or, you know, like scheduling decisions and stuff, and I think that you trust that I am a bit more intuitive in some of those areas and I'm just I'm like I'm more aware, I'm more in it, like I'm I'm in the mess of it and you are slightly removed because you're working and you're you're out of the house more and stuff. So I think that you I don't know if it's like defer, but like I think that you trust my judgment and a lot of these things because of of a pretty decent track record, and then also, like I think I try to share why, my why, with you and stuff like that.

Speaker 1:

Except when I come home on a random day where I'm freaking out about finances and I can't cancel every single monthly subscription we have. I cancel everything and I'm like we can't have anything anymore.

Speaker 2:

Now there's. Now there's ads in our Spotify.

Speaker 1:

And you just trust me. Thank you for trusting me. I'm, I'm insane. Um, no, I agree. I also wonder, like I I I don't know if we should have asked more before coming on to like recording this, but like I wonder what types of decisions couples struggle with making, because I feel like, for most things, I don't, I can't think of anything we're not on the same page about in in terms of our family or marriage, with the way the house is, like kids, everything. Like I feel like we're on the same page.

Speaker 2:

I think that there were more things, though, that we weren't when we were first married.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, no, I know, I just feel like I wonder, like say, I guess maybe are those things like, are there other things? That we didn't that, we that we haven't experienced yet, right? I don't mean we're going to have to get another car soon, so maybe it's that.

Speaker 1:

I don't want to think about it but uh, patreoncom slash should be the same. No, no, that's not what the money is used for. It's used for the recording equipment. So we could do this in regaic videos, um, but the? So I don't know. I guess it's also like I don't know. At least in our marriage, I feel like there's very little things that need deciding. Does that make sense? Like we're kind of like.

Speaker 2:

Oh, because we're doing it Not like that there's not decisions to be made, but like we're kind of making them together. What decisions are we making? Oh my gosh, I feel like I make a thousand decisions a day. Look at you go. Go listen to the mental load ups.

Speaker 1:

Look at you go. I'm so proud of you, do you, oh man? Oh yeah. Like what Like? Maybe some couples like.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and like what the kids were wearing for the soccer game because it was cold out, and then like oh, interesting, but like.

Speaker 1:

So I guess I would love to know from couples like do they like say, for example, so today, like the kids had to go out and it was really cold? Like do they like pull out the Ephesians 22 for that? Like, hey, they need to wear these jackets.

Speaker 2:

I think some do. Why that's so?

Speaker 1:

weird. I feel like that's an odd reason for like what's for dinner.

Speaker 2:

So like I think, like bigger than that is decisions of like what we're going to do today, like kind of the compromise versus shared vision. One of our shared visions is that our family goes to everything together to support one another. But like I think couples could not have that shared vision. And then they argue over like dad wants to stay home and mow the lawn, and like do house chores or whatever and miss the soccer game. But like we, that's just automatic for us. Is that we all, is that we go together.

Speaker 1:

Interesting. So I think, part of well. I think, then, a big danger of Ephesians 522 implemented poorly is that I guess the thing to keep in mind is that, like we could and we being men could rationalize anything as being well, this is the greater good for my family. So, like for today, it's too cold to mow the lawn today, but if it wasn't like it's actually not, it was freezing. I am not mowing the lawn. I'm not Peruvian. My Peruvian thumb will not be out there.

Speaker 2:

You and your mom.

Speaker 1:

I was fine.

Speaker 2:

Your mom. She even was there. She was there.

Speaker 1:

She hated how cold it was, no, but so I feel like we could rationalize anything. We could rationalize that, like, staying home and doing all of the outdoor work is serving my family. We could also rationalize, like me, going to all of my kids games and avoiding all the work is serving my family. Right, we rationalize either way and I don't and say like either way is serving my family and being a leader, and I think that's why it's important to like we should be bouncing that off of our wives and making sure that we're serving them Well. Like it's not, like we could just.

Speaker 1:

Can you imagine being going into a new company? You're the boss and you're telling everyone how this needs to be run without getting input from the people who are actually doing it? Like, that's what I feel. Like, at least, what you're telling me and what I'm envisioning is that men could do it in a certain way. It's like makes it seem like your input is irrelevant. I'm going to do what I think my vision is and you need to be under my vision because I'm the husband, right, and I feel like that's.

Speaker 2:

And I think that's where the controversy Backwards, yeah, well, and I think that's where a lot of the controversy of this comes from, and why? Well, because I mean, even I don't know how long ago it Well, it was a while ago that, like 19 kids and counting came out right, and then all of the it was when they were head like 13.

Speaker 1:

Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry. Continue Go on.

Speaker 2:

And then all of the scandals came out about the brothers.

Speaker 1:

Other six kids, yeah, just kept coming, sorry, sorry.

Speaker 2:

Keep going. But now some of the older children are sharing about what it was like to live in that family and then having good or bad marriages after that. And a lot of that stems from misusing Ephesians 5 for the husbands to dominate the situations and to just make unilateral decisions, and the wives are just expected to submit to that direction. So I think it's like I think some of this, some of the frightening parts of this, could also be that we just have access to information of these extreme situations of Because they're popularized and they get a platform and what have you. But I do think that on the ground level there could be the temptation to misuse this for your advantage or for your pride or what have you. But again, that's like if you're not living a life of virtue, then this is not written for you, because this is for the church that is already living a good Christian life.

Speaker 1:

It's just assuming you're living a life in the spirit, which, again, that's why St Paul wrote it that way and also why JP2 addresses it that way when talking about freedom, self-mastery. All those things are intact.

Speaker 2:

prior to telling you to do this, so then it's like this is how you can live all of that in a marriage. It's like trying to narrow it down and clarify In this situation. This is how living Christianity is, in this situation, but you already have the foundation of yes, I want to follow Christ, I want to serve others. To love is to will the good of the other. You're already living that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, sorry, I want to see something. Excuse me, we're definitely not going to get to the next episode, I mean next. We're not going to get to the next video, but let's go a little bit further.

Speaker 3:

Pay attention to half of it. So again there's Catholics.

Speaker 1:

I don't remember where he is, but so he's talking about. If you don't remember, because I didn't remember, he's talking about how people usually see this verse and only look at half of it.

Speaker 3:

Christians are like yeah, we're being adamant about this. Scripture says why submit to your husbands, he's going to lead? Okay, he's going to lead. So I'm going to embrace that and be true to the Bible. Okay, great Question Where's Christian vision of leading, what is the Christian vision of the one who's called to be the leader? Well, where do we look? We look to none other than Jesus himself. So Jesus is the head where his body. Jesus is the bridegroom where the bride. How does Jesus lead? Well, he doesn't say I'm here to make the decisions. I'm here, I'm the one who's in charge. He says the Son of man, meaning himself, did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Speaker 1:

So see, this is and I don't fault Father Mike for doing this. You don't know what I'm going to say, I can tell by the side of my eye. I don't fall in from doing this. I'm sure if this is because, like we have the privilege of the, the, the right word, like we're able to do this in a podcast form, so we will have a long conversation. He's trying to get this in 10 minutes so, like I get that. It's hard.

Speaker 1:

But I think it's important to point out that, like he's right that Jesus is the example of servant leadership. But also Jesus did give us new laws, right. Like he also taught authoritatively. Like he's the new Moses. So he, like one of the parallels in the gospel of Matthew, like Jesus ascends up the mountain, similar to Moses go up the mountain to get the time commandments and Jesus then, from up the mountain, is giving the beatitudes, so like it's the new law. And then he also does the like the whole server on the mountain and like he's he's also a lawgiver, like he's not just the servant. So I think it's that's just an important thing of like you, you look at Jesus like we'd look at all of what Jesus did to lead, so it wasn't just serving and dying, but also like living an upright life following God's laws giving direction on how to grow closer to Christ, grow closer to God and his own prayer and just all things like.

Speaker 1:

We have to take all of that into account and not just say like he died, because I think that's also very like. There's a, there's a big pushback from husbands on, like it's all supposed to be me. I have to give every single like, every last ounce of energy has got to go out to everybody else and like yes, it does, and also you are called to live a life of prayer and you have to have to live a life of holiness like Christ, like I right, like. I think a lot of husbands get a little resentful of like, oh, I have to do everything for everybody else, and I think you become resentful of that when you don't have the other things as your foundation right A relationship with God, a deep life of prayer, an understanding of the virtues and I mean because you're right, you're incapable of doing all that if you're not living in a life of grace. Yes.

Speaker 2:

Like you're absolutely correct, like you cannot do all those things if you're not living the sacrament fully.

Speaker 1:

Yep, so I think that's yeah. So in my mind that's an important thing to point out.

Speaker 3:

So, yes, husbands, lead. What's leadership look like? It looks like that, it looks like service, it looks like. Pouring yourself out in love Doesn't mean like oh that, that, therefore, I make all the decisions that way. You know, my word is the final word. Maybe it does in some cases. Maybe it does in your family, maybe that's how you've worked it out.

Speaker 1:

That doesn't necessarily If we look at Christy example, like it it, his word is the final word. I just think it's in I just like the analogy.

Speaker 2:

Be careful yeah.

Speaker 1:

Right, like so, like his word is the final word and that, and because of that, like I guess, like he ratifies that by his death, and like that doesn't make sense, I don't know, Like yeah.

Speaker 2:

So we have to be really careful in like when addressing Ephesians five, to not to not say what it doesn't say.

Speaker 2:

Like to like, to, to be careful to like because we don't want to offend and we don't want to upset people with it, because it is true and it is like good, we kind of want to like, but, like you know, if that's the part that makes you uncomfortable, well, this is what I really mean Like yeah but we, we have to be careful when we do that, when we make those clarifications, to not also like say the wrong thing to you because like it says what it says and it's like, okay, maybe we need to talk about, like, how that's lived and what that looks like, but that doesn't mean that we like cherry pick other things from scripture just like we're cherry picking just the one line of Ephesians five, 22.

Speaker 2:

Like right, like we, we have to see it in the whole context and then, if we're going to talk about Jesus and we have to talk about all the things that he is and did for us and still does for, us and again and I think that's a bigger mirror for husbands to be like.

Speaker 1:

You need to be like this, like if you're going to start invoking and Ephesians 22, like you need to be all of the things that Jesus was to your family. I don't know yeah.

Speaker 3:

Really come from the Bible, the biblical vision of why submit to your husbands, husbands, love your wives. Paul goes on to say husbands, love your wives. As Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to purify her. How did Jesus love the church? By emptying himself out, not by being in charge, not by making the decisions, but by serving to the point of death. So, yes, husbands, lead, but lead like Jesus. But it's say my word is final, of course, jesus there is ultimately.

Speaker 3:

But who says I lay down my life for you, I'm at your service. Now, brides, my sisters, if your husband said that, if your husband said I'm at your service, I'm here to serve this family, I'm here to serve you, I'm here to lay down my life for you, would you be willing to submit to your husband? In that case, deplace yourself under that mission of this man who says I will lay down my life for you, and he actually does it? My guess is you probably would, and this is the last word. The last word is when we talk about these things like lead and submit and all these kinds of things, sometimes it doesn't look how we think it should look, but as long as it's happening, then we just rejoice and say, okay, god maybe praised, we were striving to live according to your teaching, we're striving to live according to what you presented to us, and it just might not always look how I thought it would look, that's a very, very good point, because I think that's-.

Speaker 2:

I thought that it went along a lot with what you're saying the complementarity of how, like how we do this and how we live. This is not just masculinity and femininity, but like the individual people too, and their charisms and their personalities and like, yeah, the things that they're good at.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but I feel like the even deeper the point of like it's not gonna look the way you think it might look so like, because we you I don't think we've given a lot of specific details on how we live this out, because I don't think it's very helpful either, because that's how we work, like you just said, like we all have our own things. But I think that living out in Ephesians 5, marriage with husbands and wives being subject to one another, but then wives being subject to the husband as to Christ, I think there's a lot of people that look at that and think of, oh, it's like a marriage in the 1950s and like that's the way it ought to look, and I, yeah, so I think that's. I think that might also be where a big point of contention is for people is that they assume it needs to look that way and then they try to emulate that rather than taking cause like St Paul wasn't writing for the 1950s right, so like it it's funny that that's like the vision, like the model.

Speaker 1:

I wonder where that came from Probably prior to the sexual revolution, but I know Scott Hahn writes about it in his book the First Society I think that's what it's called, but it's basically on marriage and he talks about how, like the leave it to be for, like that's that show and like that time is just seen so idealistically from our perspective of like oh, I wish we could go back to that conservative values and whatnot, Like we look at all that and think of that like as the best time that for America, yeah it says it's a very Americanized version.

Speaker 2:

It's like, and you're like, you're forgetting about the universality of the church. That too, yeah, this wasn't written in English.

Speaker 1:

No, but then also like. So Scott Hahn goes like. He talks about like how we look at it positively, but then later on in the chapter he talks about like all of the negatives that were then that we tend to forget because we see such an idealized version of it. But like, but just to the point that it the way that we live it out, won't look the same as to the people that St Paul wrote like circulated this letter to an Asia minor. It's not gonna look the same as like in the 1800s, like it's. We are in 2023. And that's where, like we, the we allow the Holy Spirit to work through the description allowed to the Holy Spirit to work through the church.

Speaker 2:

Cause. It doesn't mean that that is not true. Correct. That. Like that, that's not our, that's not our calling that like St Paul was writing to the church, specific group of people, but like he's, it's in the Bible for us, like it's that's that's why it's it's the Holy Spirit speaking to us right now as well. So I think that's really important to acknowledge that just because it looks different in different times in different countries and different homes, that doesn't mean that it's still that that that takes away from its truth.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, right, and it doesn't that. I also think it's important to point out like that doesn't mean it's like a relativistic interpretation. Like you can't just say like, oh, mutual mutual submission means this in my family. Like there's a again, like the way I'm subject to you is different than way you're subject to me. Like it's very different and you see, it could be lived out in different ways, but we need to acknowledge that there's a difference, cause if you don't, then if everything is just the same, there's just no complementarity. So I think that's an important thing too. Like how are we complimenting one another In my masculinity and your femininity? We should be complimenting each other, so, so, like I.

Speaker 1:

So I just want to be careful that of not saying it could look different for everybody, cause then everyone can just take it as like oh, then this is how we interpret it. But like, no, there's a, there's a correct way of interpreting it. There's a difference in how you implement it. Fine, but like you can't interpret it, your, your interpretation can't be based on your implementation of it. Right, you weigh in, there's a way of interpreting it correctly. How you, how you implement that is different. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2:

It does. I wish that I had could come up with like a concrete example of that, but my brain is tired.

Speaker 1:

No. Well then I said wake up. I almost said, daddy says wake up, but that's, that's not for this episode. So should I take that out?

Speaker 2:

I hope you do.

Speaker 1:

I've leave it at it.

Speaker 2:

Oh, okay.

Speaker 1:

We don't talk to each other that way. That's inappropriate. You're not looking at the camera, so but I think that's it.

Speaker 4:

You're getting very close. I'm sorry, I'm trying to wake up, I feel.

Speaker 2:

I feel like we have a lot more to say, though I feel like we're going to have to do another.

Speaker 1:

A part do. Yeah, that's French. I don't, I wouldn't know. I'm from Bluey. I'm from Bluey.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that we cause. I really want to hear the. I want, I want to respond and react to the Andy Stanley. And then there was that other wheel that you sent about the phrase Ezra and it was, and it went on with like the 1950s, I don't know. I feel like we opened that can of worms. There's so much stuff to say Okay.

Speaker 1:

So, but also I so is this a part one episode. I would love for it to be a part one, but I think I'd love for our listeners to let us know if this is a direction they want us to keep going. So let us know on Instagram. Well, leave us a rate, please, we're we've been.

Speaker 1:

We've been a review, rate and review. We've been stuck at 119 for a bit, though somebody actually did leave a, I think, a review in October. Thank you, yes, but yeah, no, leave us another rate and reviews. We can go up a little bit more, but let us know in some way, contact us. I don't know how, how do we contact us Instagram, but, like, let us know if this is, if this is a topic that you want us to keep expanding on, cause there's more additional interpretations out there that we could keep talking about.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, all right. Keep reacting to.

Speaker 1:

And we will see you at the next episode V Van Denent.