188. Why Catholic Marriage Theology Feels Unreachable

On Tuesday 28 April 2026, the Dicastery for Laity, Family and Life will hosted a study day asking:

"How can the Church form pastors capable of accompanying young people, engaged couples, and spouses so that they live Christian marriage as an authentic experience of faith in a cultural context marked by secularization? Several speakers addressed that question, including Father Andrea Bozzolo, rector of the Pontifical Salesian University."

No one invited us, BUT we still wanted to add our two cents on how the Church could do a better job accompanying young people, engaged, couples, and married people.

Catholic marriage is not just a beautiful idea. It is a sacrament lived through sex, sacrifice, fertility, exhaustion, money, children, resentment, forgiveness, prayer, and the daily choice to love someone who is also being slowly sanctified by God at the same time. Catholic couples need understanding and guidance, not sentimental language. If the Church wants to really accompany people, they need to shift away from, giving couples a romanticized theology of marriage because, though good and true, it ultimately leaves them feeling alone with the actual work of becoming one flesh.

Send share this episode with a priest who walks with couples! Or share it with a young person, engaged couple, or married couple that wishes the Church gave them more guidance. 

We try walking with couples about sex, that's why we wrote this book to help Order Lovemaking: How to talk about sex with your spouse

Our other books
Go To Joseph: 10 Day Consecration to St. Joseph
Go To Joseph For Children

Don't forget to visit https://twobecomefamily.substack.com/

Transcript

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Welcome back to Episode 1. I think it's 1 of 88 of 2 become family. We're your hosts, Renzo, Monica, Ortega, and we talk about Catholic marriage without pretending it is easy. And that is how we are moving forward with this. I think this is like the third season. I'm calling it a third season, maybe a fourth season. I didn't know there were any seasons. There were so there was like our our era. There was a pre candidate with the Pope 1st 100 episodes. And then we had a time where we were like doing a ton of response videos and then we had. Got some interviews for. A lot of interviews for a while and then we had our other time where like things got really busy and now things are still busy and we are a whole a whole Infirmary downstairs. But we're still recording because we think marriage is important and we want to keep it real on all of the socials. That's it. Yeah. We're experiencing a lot of life. I feel like we say that all the time. We're experiencing a lot of life. So we're here to talk about it. But also what that means in the Catholic faith, like what that means for your sacrament, what that means for your marriage, for your family. And that, like, hard and good coexist. And that the church is rooting for you. We are rooting for you. You've got what it takes, but sometimes it's tricky to navigate. So here are some ideas. Speaking of the church, the church had a meeting and didn't invite us to it. So how dare they? I'm a little. Offended the church uppercase C like not our, I mean our parish also. Has they also need nobody's inviting us to anything. We're talking about uppercase C. I'm talking about all the CS, the church, big C church. Like you said, on April 28th they had a meeting in Latin. It was on the sacrament of marriage 8th in something in a Latin phrase, but they so I'm not saying that. So they invited 75 representatives to talk about marriage together about I think it was an Italian close. So they talked about marriage together to talk about like what they could do to make marriage better. And this is like this is from the report, 75 representatives from the Roman Curia, seminarians, rectors, lectors, lectures, sorry, and formators. They electors Patty, they listen. She got invited. She sees a lot of marriages from the pulpit. She hears a lot of things. She watches all those families in the back with their kids crying. So all of them and Patty got together and they focused on and how priests should be forming and accompanying young people, engaged couples and married couples in the faith, in the faith, in the face of a secularized culture that no longer cares about marriage. So they had that meeting and again, they did not invite us, which is absolute nonsense. So we are, for the next few episodes, going to say the things that we wish we could have said to those people in the Vatican who are getting together and being like, what can we do to accompany young people that are either like, before they're married, while they're engaged and then while they're married? Because I think that in our experience, there is a huge disconnect between how the church, big C church talks about marriage and how actual real life married couples need to hear about marriage. And this is talking like I'm somebody who loves theology, loves all the theology of marriage. I'll, I'll probably throw in different connections that I remember here. But when we give talks in person and whenever we are, you know, asked to fly out different parts of the country, we've, we've gone to states. How many states do you think we've gone to? We used to have a map here. Whenever we fly out people, the response that we usually get from people who hear us speak is that they liked how how honest we were, how vulnerable we were, and how we were able to take big concepts and really like boil them down to things that like they felt like they could see themselves in. I see. Why? Like they're like, oh, I see how that applies to marriage now. I never saw that connection. I never understood why that mattered. Or I had heard this before, but it didn't make sense to me. And I think that they just, they find our stories and our connections relatable in a time where they or in an experience where they feel like no one in the church understands their experience or they're embarrassed to say it out loud because they must be messing up if it's going this way or they haven't heard anyone else talk about it before within the church experience. So they may have heard some of these things outside of the church and they knew they wanted the grace and they wanted faith to be incorporated into the experience and into the like path forward through and beyond the experience. So it's been, it's been a privilege to be able to kind of like share that. Like, I hope that in some of this, like even though we weren't invited, hopefully some of these things. We hope we get invitation next time. We're addressed or brought, but if they're not, now the Vatican knows we have opinions. We. Have, if you want, tag the Vatican and in whatever way you listen to this and let them know that we should be invited next time. So they came up with so I actually, so this is just so you get a background into my research. No, because I don't know what nerd I looked at. I found the articles, I read all the articles in English, and then I got to the point that the only things that were trained, like the things that were actually discussed at the meeting itself, were not in English anymore. So then I had ChatGPT translate all of it so that I could and then and summarize it for me. So like I have the different points that they covered and a lot of them I think will be interesting to go over 'cause I think we agree with almost all of the points that they covered. But when the church likes to have meetings, like do they do anything after the meetings? Or is it just like, oh, now we know, now we need to make a committee come up with a five year plan of what we're going to do in that that decent stop? Committee to form committees in subcommittees to then go out and make smaller committees in the local level. So that we can implement change so but what I'm so based on what again this is going on what chat put together with from Italian. But I thought we could cover today just the a very like big overview of what needs to change. And I think one thing that needs to change that I would have, I would love for not just the people over at the at the Vatican that met for this, but just priests and anybody who works with married couples. We need to change the language that we use when talking about marriage. Because I think those of us who know what the things mean think we're saying stuff like think that we're dropping bombs and and speaking truth when reality, like how we're articulating the goodness of marriage to other people now is falling on deaf ears because we're speaking a whole different language that no one really cares about. Yeah, so like using a vocab tabulary that they don't they don't have a context for, they don't have a background in they yes, you've called it Christianese before. I call the Christianese today I I'm calling it romanticized theology. OK, And also, what is the other thing I said sentimental something, I call this something else. But like we like to use romanticized sentimental language to talk about specific things that like to us who have a, who have a different, like formed understanding of like what it means and how we can implement it. It means a lot like Oh yes, this is how I. Like, oh, great way to like summarize a big thing in a few words. But if we continue to just use those few words and never break that open for people, never give a context, never show examples through stories or witness or what have you. Like they you're using this like vocabulary that they don't know what that means. Or they're like, that's nice and fluffy, but like, what does that look like in my home or in my family? Like, we could never live up to like, the Christian ideal. And you're like, that's not what it is, but you don't know that because the way the person said it, there was like, long pauses between every word. It's like the delivery sometimes is dramatic. Dramatic What I like that you just said though, is that that to use stories and use examples. I think one thing that overall is a culture and storytelling we've lost is the ability to show and not tell. And I've pointed out to this to you in like books and movies, yes, because if you notice Movies Now if you watch any current movies, which we don't because you don't love the love language I love. But if you and your spouse watch. Movie. I'm tired and movies are long. And movies are the way I relax. But my point being that so if you watch Movies Now with your spouse and you'll notice that they main characters in the movie tend to explain the plot throughout the movie now, like they'll say their words with their words. Like they will say, like, you know, there was a recent one about a bank heist and the people who were heisting the bank said more than once, like, we need to get this stuff out by this time because blank. And then they would say it multiple times throughout the movie. And what people are saying is that that movie directors are being told to shoot movies that way because they're anticipating people being on their phones while they're while they're watching movies. So like they might so that they don't get lost in the plot. Like they'd be like, oh, tell them again, what's going on. And that is I think how we also try to communicate the faith a lot of times, like we try to to tell people like, hey, this is what it should be. This is how it does is how it affected me and not not illustrating, not showing. And the movies that have the biggest impact, even for people who are on their phones. And the books that have the biggest impact are the ones that like they will illustrate a thing without ever saying so. Like for the for the plot, the books that we're reading right now, like you know how much characters love each other and how they feel without the characters having to necessarily say. But like you can see it through action to see it through through tension, through different things of what's being illustrated. And instead what we'll get through different homilies and talks and lectures and even even different books that come out about Catholic marriages. You're told like this is these are the, these are the things that I think this is one of the, the phrases you'll hear is like, oh, marriage is a beautiful vocation. Or the second one is like, oh, marriage is a sacrament. It's so God loved God elevated marriage to the, to the, to the level of sacrament. Like isn't that great? And, and those two things are, they're so packed with meaning that if a person doesn't know how to unwrap that gift, like it just seems like a big heavyweight, like, OK, I don't know what to do with this. So you can tell. And I've heard it at at pre cane. I heard other retreats that we've gone to that people will say like, well, marriage is a sacrament, like baptism, like confirmation communion, it's in sacrament. So like, if you're not, if you don't know what that means, you can just take, Oh, it's, it's important. Just like first holy comedian. So like I got to get ready for it. Just a communion. But like for us it means something very different. Yeah. And if and if you've if your background in catechesis or your experience in the faith is a little bit more basic in that like, OK, yeah. The other sacraments, they were like a milestone, like a stepping stone in my like, OK, I'm I'm more Catholic because now I did the next sacrament or like that's just a rite of passage or what have you. Then you miss the depth of marriage is elevated to a sacrament. And they. And couples may not be able to like distinguish A secular marriage from a Christian Catholic Sacramento marriage because it is like also just a natural thing that happens. Like a man and a woman will fall in love and they'll get married. And you know, how, why is it different for us to, for the couple that gets married on the beach, you know, and has like a or elopes or what have you, versus the couple that gets married in the church with a priest as a witness and like, as a celebrant of the Mass? And like what, what is the actual difference? And if you just say that one line, but never like open that up, never not even explain it in theology because you you could definitely do that. Well, I think it's super important to, as you're saying that like, so if say you do want to express to a couple and engage couple, married couple or someone who's like, why should I get married in the 1st place? And you explain to them the reality that marriage is a sacrament. I think you start with a, not a testimony, but like the way we do it is we share how at least if I were to give a talk on this, right, like explain the marriage of sacrament, I would first talk about our marriage and talk about all the areas that I fall short, all the areas that I try to get better on my own, all the areas where I try to be more disciplined and get better at and increase our communication. And then continue to show that like, even though I'm trying, I'm still failing at these things to the point that I need AI need someone's help to do to help me be able to love Monica as, as she deserves to be loved. And I, and you've heard these talks when I've given them before. And usually it's not like small stuff that like I show that I fail in, but like really failing in big areas where again, I know that Monica deserves the certain type of love because I'm her husband. I should be able to care for her and love her in a certain way. And for some reason I still seem to fall short over and over. Then when you show them like there's, there's a, there's a genuine need that all couples experience. Like you jump into their experience, then you can be like, thanks be to God that marriage is a sacrament because a sacrament is something like is these things like that that Jesus established so that we can have grace. OK, so so grace is God's life in us that helps perfect us in these areas. So therefore, I can now love Monica with God's love. If I were not to get married in the church, like I would not have access to the grace in the same there'd be very different axes of grace. I would try not to get into the discussion. I would just say that there's no there's there's no grace to make it easier for the them to understand. Like in a presentation. I probably wouldn't be. I'm not as nitpicky as I am on the podcast about like making sure I sound say exactly the right thing, like I'm trying more to convey an idea. But I would say like there's there's no grace and things we've got to have this in in marriage in the Catholic Church because I need the additional help, blah, blah. So I think like leading with a story that illustrates why there's a need and then showing like This is why the church is giving you this. And then like, that's a great opportunity to to kind of like connect to the vocabulary, connect the truth of the Christian faith that is summarized in these certain like words to distinguish what happens here versus what happens there. And so that they have like a language to then like use with one another or even within themselves of like trying to wrap their brain around it and understand like, oh, this is where it fits in this like vocabulary word. But to just spit out and like, just to try to make this seem academic or just try to make it simply be spiritual. You miss like the full integrated, like lived experience of interacting with a human that's not you in trying to form and build a family and a life together. And like what? Like what does it mean to like go towards heaven together? And like, like these things that like, well, we encourage couples to do so by witnessing, by giving a testimony, by by like illustrating with a story your own or, you know, like a family members or somebody else's that has that has done this in a way that can like exemplify the very human part of it. And the very godly part of it invites them into seeing themselves in that story too. Because we've talked to about how you read books and how you watch movies and stuff that you like to imagine yourself as a character, right? And that's even, that's an invitation, for example, like when praying the meditating on the rosary and and the different decades of the rosary, the mysteries of the rosary, you're invited to like be a part of that. OK, So if I was here at this scene, either as an observer or like as one of the quote UN quote characters in the Bible, like what would that be like? And that is what telling a story and witnessing does for people too, is they imagine themselves there and like, how would that feel? What would I do in that situation? Well, actually that's kind of similar to this situation where we're going through right now or we went through 10 years ago and man, I haven't revisited that in a while. Or like you're right, there was grace there because I wouldn't have been able to do that. Like, and they, yeah, they can place themselves there and like the, the human is really cool. Like the imagine, the ability to imagine that and stuff. But that doesn't happen usually when you just use Christianese like they, they it doesn't. You can spark the imagination. Right. Well, so and I think again, we weren't invited, but if we weren't invited, this we talk about. And if you do know any, any priests or again, anybody who walks with married people, I would love for you to send this to them. Again, not because we're experts, but we're at least experts in our own experience. So we could say the things that have worked for us. And so maybe this is something that like they could take and like use as well. Because as you're talking, I'm noticing 2 things. One is that they, our audience here got to experience what the, what the back and forth is when we give talks. So typically when we give talks, I open and I open with like what I said, I open with a problem by sharing personal stories. And then I, I lead in with a little theology and then Monica comes in with another set of stories that illustrates the theology at work. And then that made me think of#2. The thing is that we learned how to talk and give talks and how to structure our talks based on a book by a Protestant pastor named in Andy Stanley. It is the books called Communicating for Change. And that was reckoned it meant to me by Michael Gormley Gomer. So this was like 10 years ago, the books super old, but it was, it was very helpful in being able to take big concepts like the idea of marriage being a sacrament, marriage being a vocation and take those big ideas. And like, what's one thing Andy Stanley would say in his book is like, what's the one point you want to make about this thing? So like. Everyone to walk away with. Knowing this one thing because what what you tend to hear in a lot of homilies and a lot of talks is like multiple points and multiple things being said, which is, which is gonna happen all times. Like you need to use words, you need to fill space. Fine. But what what I like in the way at least we try to structure is like, if you want to give them one thing to remember, what is that one thing and let everything else be connected to that one thing. And then how we structure the talk itself is I'm going to tell you how we do it here. There are five parts. I hope there's five. It's me, we God you we all right, this will make sense in a second. So if we're talking about the idea like we want to talk about marriage being a sacrament first, we start with me and me is basically the introduction of ourselves, right? So we we introduce ourselves. I have a couple usually have a lot of can can jokes that I say about about us and I kind of tell a story and just to like get them to understand, like who we are, get our personalities. And then there's we, which is what I said earlier, like you should you talk about the shared experience that we have as a we, as us, us and the audience so that we all have this common experience. Then there is the God. So like hot, what does God say specifically about that common experience? So typically that ends up being some sort of theology thing, a Bible story, something to that connects back to the we issue that we brought up. So it's me, we God. Then there's the you, which is like, alright, if this is true for you, this is what you you need to specifically work on. So like God says this now you need to do this. And usually Monica does a great job of this part of like adding a very practical end to what we we we've been talking about this whole time. So there. So there's me, we got you. And the last ones we where we we wrap up the entire the whole narrative arc that we just we just drew out for the talk by. We're a collective. We. Like we all are going to do this together. We're we're. In this together, we're motivated and we are going to go out and do now like we're we're feeling good, we're feeling inspired. We believe that marriage is a sacrament and we've given the like the spirituality of it, the practical of it. We've shown how we, Monica and Renzo have experienced that we as the collective, how we you know, and so it gives, it tries to like frame the one thing from all these different perspectives and the we happening twice is important so that it's this is not done in isolation. This is not done alone. This is something applicable to all of us and, and to, like, build that sense of community, but then also this like, yeah, to dispel the myth that like, you're alone in this. No one else knows what you're doing, what's happening in your life. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw out a few more of the, the phrases that we use and see if we can cover them quickly. So the other one is marriage is a path to holiness, that married to couples need to be open to life, that marriage is a total gift of self and that the family is the domestic church. So in all of these, if you want married couples to understand these, you can't just like explain what that means. You just be like the mess, the domestic church. Is this the history of the phrase of domestic church? Like all the nerdy things that you know about, the thing no one cares about but you could? Or they might but also still don't get it. No, I would translate that into their. Home that could be true, but I want you to go into like no one cares about this. How can I get them to care right, because like that's what in it. So sorry, that's what I go into when. The worst case scenario. Yeah, no 100% because like you have to find a way to make this in engaging. So like if you talk about the path to holiness like my no one wants to hear. Hear about how they have to be holier, right? No one wants to hear about like why you you might think that like if you are overly spirit you, if you are very, very good in your faith and you're like, oh, I want to hear about being holier. We're not talking to you. Then that's not for you. We are talking to the you're not you're not the reason the Roman Curia met together with Patty to figure out why marriage is falling apart. So, OK, like we are talking to the percentage. You're winning, OK. Yes, good to. Go get your gold medal. They didn't bite you either. So, but so we're, we are talking about the like the they, the Vatican call this meeting because they see that like marriages aren't just not they're not, they're either not people aren't getting married anymore. And also like they're not being sustained the way they used to. And like the faithful aren't, aren't thriving in marriage. So you can't assume that they care about growing in holiness. But like if you could, if you could illustrate how again, like connect to something, maybe it could be like a good parent be becoming a good parent. It could be thriving in other areas and then showing them like, oh, the way you get to thrive in this is by change the word from like trying to what do they say? Like people are saying about like self optimized, like maximize their potential, like change all those things. Show them what they're really looking for is holiness. Illustrate how that looks like in your own life and then show them how they could look like in there. It's like there's a very different buy in that you get from doing that versus just saying like you are all called the beast. Oh, here, let's see, like you're called to be a St. Some people are moved by that. Other people have no idea what that means and they really don't care because they just wanna, they have to get the groceries. Like that's that's that is not, not on the radar in the same extent. So like explaining to them like they, but they have a desire for human excellence, the desire to love people the best they could, the desire to do good in the world, the desire to impact and make changes. Like, oh, you want to live an excellent life. These are people who live excellent lives. And like the people that live excellent lives in the Catholic Church are called Saints. Like there's a different way of doing this. You have all these like interruptions and distractions and roadblocks to being excellent. Like being excellent is really hard, isn't it? Like, and kind of also showing that like, yeah, those temptations, those things that are driving you away from excellence, these pieces of your character or the life circumstances that are happening to you, the circumstances that you've kind of involved yourself in, Like all of those things. Yeah. Those are so real and, and in marriage, like on purpose to help you actually achieve excellence, right. So like there, there are those things to help you grow. And again, this is like, this is in the phrase like you're like growing in holiness, your path to holiness, what have you. But like by showing that like show what that means, like the experiences of, of infertility, the experiences of, I don't know how to balance work and home life, the experience of like, I just don't talk to my kids the way I wish that I did. Like all those things, that is the path to holiness. But that's Christianese because they're like, how the heck is that connected? And also like, yeah, what does that mean for my specific life, my specific, like circumstances? Because that path to holiness just seems like the general call for everyone. And some people figure out how to make that happen and others don't. Because it is the call for everyone. But I think for a lot of people, when they hear Path to Holiness, they think, I, I assume they think at least when you go to speak of like, well, you don't know how bad I'm doing at home. And then when you share your experiences at home, that's usually people were like, Oh my goodness, like, and I don't know if you saw the, the the surveys we got today from Kansas. You were one lady put that she cried during the time how authentically you shared. And I think that's again like you can give a talk on the path to of marriage being a path to holiness. And be like a quote expert. On Oh yeah. And. We're an expert of how unholy we can be in marriage and still continue to walk this path. Be like this is still the right thing guys. Keep going. But I think that's, I guess that's the, I think there's a, there's a temptation to try to, to talk about these things in a very pious way, which they should, they should be. You could. You could be. Irreverent. No, I said. You could be respectful of the things you're saying if you're like, like, we didn't make any crude jokes, I hope, right? We I didn't like right now. There's a potential, always a potential, but like you can be respectful of the subject matter, but still being honest about it. And I think sometimes we sometimes we sacrifice honesty in order to increase our piety and or like give off the air of piety. And I think that is hurting the overall way that we explain, sorry, the overall that way that we preach the gospel because the way and the the Dakashi talks about the everybody being so secularized. But I also think people are just they're they're not people are they just want real life stuff. They don't want to be told lofty ideas anymore. Like I think people are over lofty ideas and over lofty language for romanticized theology. Like I think they just want to know like, OK, I understand I have to pick up my cross and follow Jesus. But like, does that include these things that are happening with my kid? Does that include like all these things that are happening with my family that include like our issues of finances? Is that all part of it or am I just messing up these separate compartments of life that like I should like, do I really need behind more rosaries so that I have more money? Like what's going on? Like there's a lot of questions that we end up getting there. Like no, no, like it's all of it. And usually the way we express, let me show you how it's all of it, is that we end up sharing how we have been failing and how we are struggling. We don't share glory stories. We share stories of like of honest struggle and then how Jesus is walking, still walking with us. And anything that's a glory story is because of like, just again, like highlighting this idea that marriage is a sacrament that like the glory comes because of that integration of our like, stick to itiveness to like the struggle and Jesus coming in and saving the day and like, and that like, and reminding them that Jesus loves them individually. Like he thinks that you are very good and he knows that things are hard, but he also loves your family. He loves your marriage. He wants it's good. He wants you to be more in love with one another. He wants you to to be more unified. He wants like that's his desire for all these things. So like when you experience these, these real life situations, that is not a sign of your failure to love Jesus. And it's not a sign of his failure to love you. Like it's kind of reframing and redirecting all of this stuff in light of Catholic truth because it certainly is true. All of those phrases are not wrong, but they're not. They're not speaking to like the lived reality of what people are at right now. If you're talking past them, they feel left out, like they feel irrelevant. They feel misunderstood. They feel like they don't fit into the club, like they don't feel good enough or they feel like you're talking about somebody else's family. And like, no, these are, these are meant to, but like they're meant to speak to everybody. That universal call to holiness, Like that's a really a thing and it's so cool. But also like, don't miss where they're at to help get to that understanding. Right. So like your marriage is still a sacrament, even if there is a miscarriage and even if you still struggle with, if your kids are poorly behaved, if your spouse struggles with, with, with different things, like they're your marriage is still a sacrament despite whatever failures you might be pointing to. Because like again, because, and then hopefully at some point they'd understand like how sacraments work and grace and faith, but like they might even feel like within their own identity of their relationship. Like I don't fit any of these boxes because of all the issues that I have. So then when they see us walk up there and we're like, Hey, we're going to speak to you. We're the last talk of the day here. All the ways that we screw up and it again, not we don't make light. We don't, it's funny, I think, but we don't we treat it respectfully, but also making sure that like we don't come off as overly pious. So I think if you are someone who's walking with people, check, check your not just the language you use, but like how you speak and refer to certain things. Because most likely if you are, if you're a priestess counseling a couple that's like going to be married soon, or I would assume that they will not always share everything. Like if you, if they share like they'll share 50% of a thing, they won't share the whole 100% struggle. They'll share enough to not be embarrassed to go talk to you the next day. So I think being willing to like understand where they're coming from like that, that the struggles are super deep and that families go through a lot because you know that we, even if all of you, even if you're just a priest, it's not just a priest, even if you're a priest, like you came from a family, you know how messy family can be. Being willing to kind of set the romanticize language to the side and be really willing to speak openly about like the things that could be going wrong in a marriage. I think will help more couples see marriage is a good and will help more engaged couples be prepared for like that. This is not just going to be easy just because we have Jesus. And then hopefully more young people can see marriage as a way of like you, like they can see marriage as a path not just to like get the house and get the family, but like a, a path to, to yeah, I was going to. Say that that fulfillment, that phrase fulfillment. And I do think too that that what we've noticed is that young couples or honestly all the couples there's there's a lot of couples that are married much longer than us at the events that we are speaking at, but they appreciate direct information to like don't skip around or skim around. Don't I have a phrase that my stepdad would say, but like, like don't tiptoe around the thing and imply or assume that everyone's picking up what you're putting down. Like be direct and be honest because I think people like appreciate that because you're like, you're willing to say the thing that's actually out there or at least like what's real for your own family so that I can be like, like, oh, shit is real in my house too. The gravity of it though, like the, the intensity that I feel is not made-up. Like other people can relate to that. And so I think like sometimes being direct and also just being direct in some of the like response to that to like direct in your practical advice. It won't apply to everybody, but at least I'm giving you like an actual thing instead of like, you guys should really work on your communication, don't you think? We were trying like how right or like you should open your heart to Jesus more like I'm pretty sure I've been trying like what does that mean? So I might not have a direct thing that applies to every single person, but I've at least been specific and direct in an option. And from there you can go and try and it doesn't work. But like, at least I have a way to start and I think so. I think being specific and direct is helpful. There's so much more we wish we could have said at this meeting that we weren't invited to. So we're going to just say it to you guys. Then hopefully you guys will get us invited to the next 1. So it's all on you now. If you could get us invited or this is what you could do to get us invited. These are the very practical steps. Number one, you have to leave a five star review on Apple while Monica's yawning at me, I'm gonna leave this video and on Apple and Spotify, I am going to be uploading these videos at minimum to Spotify because on Spotify, apparently if I put a video up there, they get so many more downloads. So we're gonna start doing that. And also on Spotify, if you follow us there, you could leave comments on all the episodes. And I realized that now. So there's comments from like years ago, but now if you comment now, I'll comment back. So we're going to be doing that to help this also keep spreading. So we get the invite. Share this with people, Share this with any anybody else who works with people who are married or anybody else who you know that just needs to hear more real language about marriage and is kind of tired about tired of hearing words that they just don't get and still struggle with being like in being married. Am I missing anything? No, I think that's it. I'm sorry I bored you. Like us and tell other people that you like us. And we will see you at the next episode.