189. Why Gen Z Doesn't Think Marriage Matters Anymore

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

I was hoping to keep the body joke in.

SPEAKER_01 0:01

I know, but you lost it, and I'm so glad.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Why? I want I wanted more of it. Welcome back to episode 189 or 190 of To Become Family. We are back and talking about the Meeting we weren't invited to. Meeting we weren't invited to, and basically how the church is gonna start ministering to married people. And we just want to clarify some things that I think is that I think are super important. One of them being I need to get closer to this microphone. Oh, I can just turn this here. No, I gotta come closer. I'm gonna have to pull the whole thing again. So I thought I did a good job putting together the arc though of this series.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

This is episode two of a series on what's the meeting called?

SPEAKER_00 0:40

I don't remember. The Roman Curia gets got together, but that's not the meeting. So basically, we are gonna today we're gonna talk about we're gonna focus on the young generations that are not getting married, particularly Gen Z, because Gen Alpha is still little.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

They should not be getting married.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

They should not be getting married. Um, but talking about why they don't seem married. Yeah. So well for us elder millennials, or I was I'm a younger millennial, but um for us millennials and everyone else who's listening, um, I think my hope for this episode to be that we are able to level set in that we all understand what the issue is and why they're not getting married.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Gen Z.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Gen Z. Why Gen Z and Gen Alpha, older Gen Alpha, I don't know what where Gen Alpha is anymore, but why Gen Z and Gen Alpha are not aren't getting married, because I think a lot of what we do as married couples in order to promote the goodness of marriage, uh important, but is impacted the way we do it is impacted by why others aren't getting married. I hope that makes sense. Am I making sense? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

I mean, I think I think, yeah. So yes, we have an influence on the generation that is coming behind us, on their interest, their desire to get married or not. So what they see, what they experience from us has an impact on on their future marriages or lack thereof.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Yes. And so there could be couples like us who want other want to promote the goodness of marriage. There could be priests that we know, there could be, you know, deacons, lady, and religious who want to promote the goodness of marriage in even just in your married life. You're like, oh, let's show the world how great it is to get married, let's have a whole bunch of kids. But despite us trying to do all this, marriage is still not, our marriage is no longer invoked by in Gen Z. And I want to break down why today, uh, based on what the findings were from this day of study in Italy in April. Okay, so I broke it down to three things and three reasons.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Three reasons why Gen Z is not getting married, not interested in getting married.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Yes. But first, I want to start with an umbrella.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Oh boy, okay. There's a lot of layers to this.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Well, yes, I think this is super important because I heard this from John Deloney and I thought it was so brilliant. Use the phrase words and pictures to explain this concept that when you and I hear a word, we may not be picturing the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

So we're using the same word, yes, but we don't see, imagine, picture the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

And in John Deloney's example, he was talking about he was talking to a woman who was complaining about how her honeymoon went, and he used the concept of words and pictures. He's like, When you use the word honeymoon, you wanted this, and your husband heard the word honeymoon, he wanted that. And they were two different things, and it's important to get on the same page. So in couples, it's important to be like to be on the same page. So knowing that if you use this particular word, if you're using certain phrases, you both have to mean the same thing, or else you're talking past each other.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Yep. Even though you're say using the same words, you're not saying the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Yes. And I think on a wider scale, the church is using the word marriage and having couples, Gen Z couples coming into Precana using the word marriage. And I think we have a different picture in our mind than what Gen Z is thinking when they hear marriage. And I think this is not a church stop using flowery language discussion because that was our previous episode. This this is more of like when you use these words, they literally think of something different. So that's the big big umbrella idea. So under that, number one, they don't see marriage as a decisive need for family life anymore. Okay. So because what am I? Yeah, well, basically studies are just showing that they Gen Z still thinks of it as they still think of being in a in a relationship is good, having kids is good, having a a family, established family is good. They even think of marriage as a good.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

But they don't see but that's that's where like the two different pictures think.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah, they don't see it as a requirement or a necessity in order to have a family life.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

They don't think that it's yeah. They don't think that, not that it's not important. They think that it's you said that it's a good and great for people that want it. And I might even do that at some point in the same relationship, but they're not seeing it as a requirement for for the next things. It's not the it's not step one or set, it's not even, yeah, it's it's not even one of the steps. Don't they think that they can still get all the things that they want with or without marriage. So if you want marriage, cool, but you don't need it in order to have all the things that you're hoping for.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Right. So in their minds, marriage, and this again, this this could apply to some mill to younger millennials as well. But in their mind, when they when they think of marriage, they think of it as the cherry on top of all this other stuff that we've built. I've built, I have a career, I have a firm foundation of a relationship, we might have kids, we might have a house, we might have a mortgage, we've been committed for a while, and now, oh look, and we're married. And that's the yes, and that's the the last thing. Oh, look, we're married. But they don't see it as so they see it as the pinnacle like we made it, rather than the decisive, this this is what I need.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Foundation. Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

This is where everything else is founded on. It's seen as like the the cherry on top.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

And you see that a lot. I mean, there's so many complaints, and like if you you know, or there or there's there's even like conversations that you may have had if you're talking to couples who are dating, engaged, what have you, but there's so many. Okay, sorry, rewind. If you're somebody that like works for the church in pre-Cana ministry, marriage prep ministry, or even youth ministry or DRE or director of religious education, if you work for the church in some fashion, one common complaint that you hear from a lot of people is, oh, there's so many couples cohabitating. What are we gonna do about this? And I think that's part of this. We're talking about something and we mean different things. We our picture is different because there are so many couples now that are cohabitating and they see that as I've made a commitment to this person and we are we share the rent, or we bought, we have our both of our names are on the mortgage, and that is a sign of our love and commitment. And so they're not seeing it as this scandalous deviance from what you're supposed to do. They don't see it as sinful or they don't see it as I didn't mean deviance, but disobedience. I know that there's a rule and I'm doing the other thing. They see it as that's that's the next thing you're supposed to do. You find somebody and you pick each other and you fall in love and you're like, I don't want to pick anybody else, I want to pick you. So the thing that I do is I move in, we move in together. And and then there's also layers of this is financially responsible too. Why are we living in two different places when we're always together anyway? So that's the next financially responsible thing to do is to live together. And so they see it as a good, as making this next step, this commitment to one another. And so when we say that's bad, they're like, I'm confused.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

Why see it as a good and it's they see it as a path to marriage? To the next thing, to the thing that you're saying is a good. I believe it's a good too, and that's how we're getting it.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

We're working on it, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:21

So, and I think we've even had the way we've done pre-cana from now, like in our all our years in the past, needs to change because of this. Like, I this is a recent thing that again, the I forgot the dicastri, the for laity, I don't remember what it is. But they they they coming up with this was really important because I was like, I've never considered that again, words and pictures of like they just think something different. Because even when we've given the sex talks to pre-cana couples, it's usually our that's usually our talk about. Um, we wrote a book, Love Making, How to Talk About Sex with Your Spouse. You should read it, even if you are in Gen Z. Um, but we've we've talked about it and we've always tried to introduce it in a new way because we assumed a lot of we assume, I think rightly so, that a lot of them are cohabitating and they're not gonna see what's wrong with it, and we're not gonna try to meet them there. And they're having sex before being married, but we're gonna meet them with you're about to be married, this is what's gonna shift, this is why these things are important, this is what you know got God designed designed love for. But I never considered that even within their marriage, all these other things that we're talking about, they have no boxes for them because they picture something they're picture completely different things.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah. And I think though that's really important for us, for anyone who's living a Catholic marriage and wanting good Catholic marriages for other people to recognize that and to not have this perspective of judgment on couples who are doing it out of order. Cause like you know the order, and like the judgment comes from like you don't really want the right thing. Like you are, yeah, you're you're trying to like play the you're trying to play the game and you're gonna lose because like church has been around for a long time and they said the same thing. Like a lot of them haven't even like heard. So again, they're they're coming from a different picture, but like what they are desiring is still a good, and they don't have necessarily this negative picture of marriage that I do think some other generations have seen bad marriages and been like, I don't want that. That's a load of bulls. I think Gen Z, for the most part, is like, yeah, falling in love is great, and I want to do that and I want to like do this right.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

They want they want the whole thing, they just don't want, they just don't see marriage as the thing that they want. Yes. Marriage is the ratification of the thing that they already have.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

It's proof of what we've built. Yes. And now we're married because we did all the things.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah, so meeting that type of generation where they are, in the same way that you would try to meet your spouse where they are when you guys both picture two different things, is bet is starting, I think starting pre-Ken is with this is what our picture of marriage means. So these are the things, this is this is what makes it unique. Maybe it's defining some of the terms you talked about the last episode, but but not and not always coming in with corrective action. You need to stop doing these things, but more of this is the end that we are trying to propose to you so that they can see, oh, this is a good too. How do I get to this good? And then that naturally should come out with I need to change these things.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah. And how how ultimately you're pursuing goods, this is the best good. And it needs to go first so that all these other goods that you're pursuing are rightly ordered, they're put in their right place, and that like together you can work on and achieve those other goods with God's grace, like and kind of just like put that as like they're not all a bunch of goods, like this is the best good. And those other goods are fruits of this best good. And so, yeah, so like instead of this corrective, like you're on the right track, like let's let's put this in the right order, and here's why. And I think that I think that is important, and I think that um that happens though through relationship and talking to talking to people, it's it's not gonna be corrective from like pulpit necessarily, it's going to be like engaging with these couples.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Yeah, and that's what JP2 did with theology of the body of of starting not with what the church teaches, but what the what what is experienced by humans, quite naturally is experienced by humans, starting with Adam and Eve and showing that. So I think there is a way we could do this, but I think as any ministers, whether you're not a minister of marriage, but like if you're living out a married life, you're called to be a light. Yeah. So if you are a light to other people by your marriage, understanding that your life may not make total sense because you have a different picture. And I think when you have conversations with it could be it could be couples in in church that maybe just aren't that maybe are a little lukewarm, or couples that you meet somewhere else that's just like, oh, why do you have you know, why do you live your life the way you do? I think having the understanding that they're coming to you with a different picture of what married life should be should help us meet them where they're at.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Yeah. And I think too, like you've kind of been talking, well, if you work for the church, if you're a minister, anyone listening to this podcast episode has a sphere of influence of other people who are in the Gen Z generation era. You might have siblings or cousins, co-workers. You absolutely have a sphere of influence and you can engage in these kinds of things, either directly or indirectly, because you're you're around people. Like the way that you talk to the girl at the checkout counter, the way that you talk to the barista, the way that you have a sphere of influence. And having this framework will hopefully, if you're somebody that's been, I know that my marriage is something that other people see and experience, and I want them to experience something good. Maybe this reframing allows you to not change what you're doing, but adjust how. And so that when you do get the chance to enter into these conversations, like the opportunity arises and somebody asks you a question, or is your family is so beautiful and how you respond can be from this perspective. So I guess I too want to make sure that this is still a marriage podcast for all married couples that this this applies to you.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Yeah. Number two, and I think this is important, like that's a good segue into number two. Another picture that in terms of the pictures that Gen Z sees or early millennials see when you talk about marriage, they don't see getting married in the church. When they go to get married in the church, they're not saying going in thinking I we need to change the things that we're doing wrong in order to be able to be worthy of getting married in the church. They see marriage in the church as God's stamp of approval of their marriage. So there's they're going in being like because again, like you mentioned earlier, I don't think they have a concept of the things they shouldn't be doing. They have a concept of God is love, like especially with the social media and all the other things out there where they can get their Christianity, their discount Christianity online. Um, they they know that God is love, they know that God loves that they're together because again, it's a good thing that they're together, like you said. Um, they know that God wants them to be successful in in this relationship and they wants them to grow and have these good things of children and family life and everything. So when they go to get married in the church, sometimes it is to appease grandma, like what it used to be, but it it is now more seen as like, well, if I do this, God is blessing this thing to give us the strength to be able to have a good marriage and to grow. But again, they are building on a completely different picture of what that means because so then they might be coming to us as ministers of Epicana or ministers in the church, and then they're asking to like, okay, we're gonna go through this 12-hour certification so that we can get married in your church, and we can be telling them all the things, but they're not gonna be challenged to change because all they're thinking is that regardless of what I'm learning out here, like I might learn some good tips, I'll leave what I don't like, take what I like. But at the end of the day, God's gonna bless this because it's a good thing. You're telling me it's good, so they're gonna hear those things and then go to get married at the church and then have the great wedding, and then not feel like they had to change any of their lives. So I think I think that means we need to know that in going into pre-Cana's, we need to paint a different picture for them, but also be more decisive with our charismatic proclamation of the gospel that challenges them to have to amend their lives in some way, at minimum to give their lives over to Jesus. And then hopefully starting from there because like they may not stop all the things because like you can't just in 12 hours hopefully win them win them over enough to make them to stop doing everything they're doing that could be harming them in terms of spiritually and or in the relationship, but they could at least start considering giving their lives to Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Well, and that I think part of that comes from an over-correction to avoid purity culture and shaming in the area of chastity and sin and and rightfully so. There's there there should be some correcting of that presentation. And I do think that there's even been a lot of correction in the presentation of sin in general, not wanting to shame people because that you are not your sin, but there there was kind of a movement that borderlined on that, and so it it could, you know, feeling like influenced by Protestantism in the way that they say and falling on the said said towing a line and then received by a person who is already prone to anxiety, depression, shame, whatever that that was that was definitely an underlying culture for a little while of kickiness. So I think part of it is overcorrecting of that. So I do think it like it comes from that overcorrecting. And I do think that one thing that we've noticed in talking with um talking with one-on-one with couples that we know who are dating, engaged, newlyweds, and then going out and speaking and in our pre-K now. So again, I want to make sure that we're talking as ministers, but also that you have this opportunity all over the place is this need for Jesus is yeah, you love this person very much. I can see that you are very committed to them and you want to grow a family, and all of that absolutely is good. And so we need Jesus though, because we are imperfect. Don't you sometimes do things that you wish you didn't to try to love this person better? And you're just like, shoot, we still fight about the same thing, or so it's not necessarily pointing out their sin, but their incompleteness, they're like almost but not quite, and and inviting that idea of grace into that. And then another piece that has, I think, hit a lot of people is that at some point life is gonna be really hard, and your spouse is gonna need you in a way that you just there's no way to prepare for it. Somebody's gonna get sick, somebody's gonna lose a job, or accidents, like these things that like don't have to do with sin is also why Jesus came to save, and also why your marriage needs grace, and also why this is different, that this type of family, that this a family grounded on the Christian faith, on the gospel, that's believing in that and is entering into sacramental marriage, that's where this gets different. Because, you know, so to show them that Jesus is the answer for those things as well, and they're like, that is true. I've I've experienced other families that like grand grandma got sick, and grandma and grandpa they really loved each other through all of that. And so it's it is for sin, but it is also for like for all of life, for all of the suffering, for all the things that can come. Um, and I think that that has been a good way to start the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

You're you're doing by by doing that, and what you described, you are doing what missionaries are called to do, right? So, like if you train it to be a missionary um and you're gonna go do a mission in a different country, you learn their language, you learn their customs, you learn everything about them, you integrate yourself into them, and then you find what connection point do we have here that you understand and I understand. We might we come from two different backgrounds, but oh, we both understand this. Let me start there. So I think starting with suffering, which again we all know, and you're gonna you're gonna experience this in your marriage and you wanna love your spouse through it and you wanna be good, and you also recognize that you have your own frailties and you're not able to do this on your own. And then introducing God as as not as a crutch, but as like a force multiplier. You can't do this, and he's gonna make you better, he's gonna help you grow, he's gonna give you his power, he's gonna give you his life. And then and then because then you can build off of that. Well, why am I still falling? Well, there's there's more that he wants from you. He wants to perfect you in love. You could build off of that, but I think meeting them there can only happen if we understand that their pictures are different than our pictures. And because, and because as missionaries, we're going in thinking, all right, they have a whole different picture of what life means, but we can at least meet them here. And I think that's that's so you articulated that really, really well.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

And I think that that area of Gen Z is other studies are showing how compassionate and empathetic they are. They're very service-oriented, they're very wanting the world to be better, and they understand that suffering is very real and stuff. So I think that that's that is a connector because that's absolutely the Catholic Church has has the answer for redemptive suffering, like have the answer for suffering. So I think that that's one way that you're not sugarcoating, you're not watering down the faith, you're absolutely entering into the same deep conversion conversations, but from a different place so that we are at a place that we understand. And so I think it's yeah, it's not bypassing the thing that you're concerned about, but it's getting, it's getting to the heart of it through a different, just a different angle.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Right. Cause I think a lot of past generations have watered down the faith in order to get them to be at least, well, at least they're close to church, at least they're coming to mass, at least their kids will receive the sacraments, and that's not what we're advocating for. We're advocating for a true missionary mindset that is still, no, I want we want full conversion and radical conversion and and and dependency on on Jesus. However, we know that we can't get them there unless we meet them where they are, which I think a lot of I think a lot of people miss the that reality that like we can't just preach the same words and and expect the same the results the same way every time. And I think meeting them where they are with, like you said, also goes into our third point of the language we use does not mean that we're going to avoid the reality of sin. We're just going to choose when we introduce it because they have to be ready and trusting and willing to accept it. So the last thing that this the study day found in terms of Gen Z, they described it as that they have a fragility to certain kinds of language, right? Like saying using words like you must do this, you ought to do that, this is your duty. That they the study day found that like that doesn't work anymore. Now they they they try to spin it as like the generation is just very soft and you have to be kind and like, and I think it's more of they are afraid of being coerced and told what to do and are suspicious of of language like that that can't be questioned, which I, as someone who questions everything, I am completely okay with that. Of like you you're told by a minister of faith, which is where whether it's a priest, a married couple, whatever, that like you have to do this for your spouse every time. For a lot of people, that can seem like, well, that sounds like abusive language to me, like, or language that could be exploited for abuse. Yes. Is this really what you want? And we've found that instead of using the words of like you ought to do this, meeting them of like you want to love your spouse this way. Yes, I do. Okay, this is how you do it. Yeah. Rather than like, you need to love your spouse. You this is your duty as a husband and father. And some people get upset and like, oh no, you do have a duty. Like, yeah, you do have a duty, but you can't expect again. We all have different pictures of what duty means. Some people see the have the picture of duty and think of something I do even though I hate it, even though I wish I could, I didn't have to do it. I'm being forced to do it because it's my duty. And another person feels like this is my mission, this is my calling, this is my vocation. Like two different pictures of the working.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that I think that's huge that you say that, like that different definition. Of the same word, like the different picture, because I also think that that is a huge reason why the word freedom and free will is so like misunderstood between people, between in in like Jesus came for us to be able to be free and to have freedom. And so I think that like when you talk about duty and obligation and obedience and these things that they're not wrong. Those aren't those are not incorrect words, but words also like freedom and independence and choosing, like choosing the good, and like because they want their spouse to not feel they are being that they're obligated to do things and same for themselves, right? And so they I don't want to put my beloved in like a box, I don't want to put them in a prison, I don't want to coerce. There's a there's a big move, it's understandable, they've seen a lot of abuse and manipulation and coercion, and they're like, I don't want that for my family, for my marriage, for my relationship, whatever words they're using, right? And so that's another good. They've seen this bad. And so when they they've attached those words to duty and obligation and things. And so if we could come in again with words that are also still very true and still apply to the situation of like to choose to choose the good freely, to freely enter into this relationship, totally. These are all words that we also have. And I think that that's I think that's a good way to come again to the same thing of like the rules of marriage, right? And the like the obligations and the expectations of marriage, but coming in from the angle of like this is what you this is what you're pursuing, right? And so like, but this is where the fullness is found in that pursuit that you're this mission that you've been that you feel like you're on. Love your family well.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

And I think as laity, like if we if we are just a married couple that we don't, we're not going out and speaking and and doing pre-kins, whatever, um, if the way you live your family life can show them a different picture of the words duty and like so not only can you meet them where they are with with using different words, but also you could redefine those words for them if the way you live out your vocation as a duty does not seem like a miserable piece of garbage all the time. So, like if you're a state-home mom, using an example of you, like if you're a state-home mom and and like I'm sure you get questions of like, how do you do it all the time? And like, and and like, oh, you have so many kids, I can barely deal with one. And like, no, we can barely deal with five. Like, we just put on a good show, it's all fake on Instagram. Um, but if you're asked that, you can reply with like, well, you know, this is my you know, whatever, God's calling me to do this, whatever. But or you could be real but also say how you could say how hard it is, but acknowledge how much you freely are choosing to do this because you love it, which I think you've done a pretty good job of. I think you're you should promote yourself a little bit more when people ask you these questions. But I think that being willing to acknowledge the difficulty of our duty, but then acknowledge to them also that like my husband's not forcing me to stay home. I hope that's not the case. But like, at least in our family, my husband's not forcing me to stay home, and I love it. It is hard and it's a season, but this is this is a thing I'm freely doing, and I love it. And I think that's there's something there that can at least make them consider their picture of like maybe my picture is wrong. Maybe there's something more to this Catholic marriage that I than I might anticipate myself.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Yeah. And I do think, yeah, I think that it's important too because a lot, I mean, I think this is true of every generation. And the thing that gets kind of pointed out might be different, but like every generation looks at their parents' generation and is like, I want to correct this, this, and this, right? And so I do think that there's a bigger pull for Gen Z families to not be overworking and not be overscheduled and not and like really trying to refocus on family quality time and things like that. And so you presenting quality family time with joy and truth, because they A BS, thank you. They can tell, like when you're not being authentic and when you're being too flowery, kind of like the last episode, like also be honest. Yeah, there is there's always something sticky in our house, but like the kids are so happy and I love it. And and the the both and the real picture of it, right? And I wanted to say this with the first point, but I forgot that when you're sitting with some couples who are thinking that marriage is the we made it, and kind of just talking about honestly with them, you're never gonna check enough boxes for this to feel perfectly right that you have utter confidence that this is going to be perfect. The bank account is never gonna hit a number that's just right, and your your schedule is never gonna be just right, or the the situation with your siblings and your parents and everybody's gonna get along, it's never gonna be just right. So if we have these like check marks of then I can get married, there's always gonna be reasons to like put that off. And so I think that's another like authentic thing to say to them. It depends on your level of relationship. How do you do? Well, sometimes we have to sacrifice this and we don't always get that, but we have dinner together every night, and I get to have I get to go to bed every night with my best friend, and it's awesome. And to kind of just yeah, to not give them a false sense to of how great everything is too, because they're like, that's not real either. So I think it's important to yeah, present it authentically, but mostly with that that joyful positivity.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

So there's still a there's still hope to save marriage for Gen Z for early millennials and for Gen Alpha, whenever they're ready to get married, hopefully not too soon, because our son's only 12. Um, but we're we're really hoping that that this at least prompts your thinking in ways that you could be a billboard for marriage for for other couples, for younger couples that are seeing you. And if you're in that younger couple gener um um generation, like let us know if did we actually is this it's not just our ideas, like is this uh the meeting that we weren't invited to. Are they making good points? Are these worth uh pursuing and and trying to change the way that do we do ministry so that we could help reach younger couples? And let us know. Give us a follow at To Become Family on Instagram. I am putting these videos on YouTube and on Spotify. If you're on Spotify, you can leave comments, it will comment back. I'm gonna put polls, you can ask questions, we can do all these things on YouTube. Just subscribe because I do all this work for nothing. Um, and if you are listening to this and you still like it, uh give us a review, leave us five stars so we can keep growing so more people can learn about how great marriage is.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

If you like to read content, we are also on Substack. If you like to just see what normal life in our house looks like, follow us on Instagram. That's it. Um, and I think that's about it.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

And we will see you at the next episode.