Just Us: Before, Birth, and Beyond

Season 5, Episode 1: Peer Support in Substance Use Disorder Treatment

• MAHEC • Season 5 • Episode 1

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We are excited to kick off season 5 of the Just Us: Before, Birth, and Beyond podcast with two peer support extraordinaries, Cassie York and Cassie Burleson. This episode dives deeply into what it means to be a peer support specialist, discussing the unique role they fill in supporting people through recovery. Listen in to learn about how the Cassies’ lived experience has allowed them to be such incredible advocates for their patients, processes for becoming a peer support specialist, and more! 

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SPEAKER_00

Hello everyone and welcome to season five of our podcast, Just Us Before Birth and Beyond. This season is all about perinatal substance use disorders and highlights Project Cara, a perinatal substance use clinic at Mayhek, the Mountain Area Health Education Center in Asheville, North Carolina. Just Us is a podcast where we explore real stories, lived experiences, and lessons learned in the world of reproductive and community health across the life course. We are so incredibly grateful that you are here ready to learn with us. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_04

Hello, everybody, and welcome to season five of the Just Us podcast. This episode will focus on peer support systems and substance use treatment. I'll be your host, Nash Hardy. I'm the Davidson Impact Fellow at Mayhack. I work in all things substance use, which means I get to work with the lovely people at Project CARA, hence my involvement in this podcast. But I would primarily like to introduce our two wonderful guests who are both peer support extraordinaires, Cassie York and Cassie Burleson. So, Cassie York, if you'd like to give yourself a little intro, that would be great.

SPEAKER_03

My name is Cassie York. I am someone in long-term recovery from substance use disorder. Also, I'm a former peer.

SPEAKER_04

Wonderful. And Burleson, Cassie Burleson. We have the two Cassie's here, so don't get confused.

SPEAKER_02

I'm Cassie Burleson and I do work at MCHP with um Cassie York, but I don't go to school like she does. You see all those letters behind her name? I'm a peer support specialist. Um and I uh I certainly don't have all the letters, but I also am someone in long-term sustained recovery from substance use and mental health.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

And I work primarily with our OBOP patients at MCHP, but really with anyone. With any of them.

SPEAKER_04

Great. All right. Well, again, we have these two experts here. Thank y'all so much for being here. So I'll start start real broad. Um, I just what is peer support from y'all's perspective and and why is it such a critical aspect of addiction medicine? What gaps does it fill that no other provider really could?

SPEAKER_02

Unless you've walked through the system, um unless you have lived it, you can love people all day long and you still don't understand. You know, similar um circumstances, similar um challenges unless you are the person that has gone through DSS who has um, you know, been homeless without any resources, without without anything. You can't even fathom what that truly feels like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Well, and I think, you know, to back up with that question, a peer support specialist is someone in long-term recovery from substance use disorder or andor mental health challenges. There is a certification process. There's training and certification that goes along with that to equip that person to best support people facing similar challenges that they have that they themselves have faced in the past. Um, I feel like, you know, like what you were saying, I mean, there's so much fear and shame and so much like systemic uh barriers, I think, for folks with either substance use and or mental health challenges, um to have someone who knows what that's like. Yeah. You know, makes all the difference.

SPEAKER_02

Trying to navigate any of the court systems, DSS, you know, when whenever crisis comes and things have to be different, it's so overwhelming. How do you know what to do?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. It seems like and it also is deceit, deceitful because we have all these systems in place.

SPEAKER_03

Mm-hmm. I mean, and I feel like when you when you're when you're seeking care too, I mean you're you're at a crisis point typically of some kind.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, and your brain is probably offline, you know, the thinking brain is is not engaged in crisis typically. So it's it's hard to nav like somebody puts a case plan in front of you, or um, you have to even making an appointment sometimes, I think, can be really challenging when you're um yeah, in crisis.

SPEAKER_02

How can you worry about meeting all these goals that this other system has set up for you when you when everything is on the line, when your children you don't even know where you're gonna sleep tonight? Like what are you eating? And people want to ask you about setting up a case plan and making appointments and going to court, and everything lies on it, you know, because nothing changes until something changes, as Cassie always says. So, like you said, it's crisis time.

SPEAKER_04

And from what I've seen, y'all are by far the fiercest advocates for your for your patients, and I think it stems from that knowledge of what they've been through that no other no other position in the clinic, no other clinician, no other provider has ever felt anything like that. Um, so I think that lived experience is arguably the most important thing um in a in a substance use treatment team. Um did y'all experience peer support in your recoveries?

SPEAKER_02

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_04

I know peer peer support is fairly new in the context of substance use treatment. Um, and I think a lot of that stemmed from stigma and distrust in peers in the early stages of peer support.

SPEAKER_02

Um so and lack of um resources, you know, in the rural areas where we lived, there wasn't even treatment available.

SPEAKER_03

No, we had to leave the county to get treatment.

SPEAKER_02

And nobody ever offered me to go to treatment. I did some um I did treatment in the Department of Corrections, you know, state and ordered while in custody. Did you ever go to were you in custody when you went to treatment?

SPEAKER_03

Um, no, I've been to rehab a few times. Um but it wasn't it wasn't in county. And I think when I was at um rehab, the I encountered people that were peer supports in that in that context, especially the last time I was in treatment.

SPEAKER_02

Hey, what year was that?

SPEAKER_03

Um yeah, it was more towards the end of my using, probably 2009, I would say, or 2010. Um, but I would say the only the next closest thing to peer support that I've ever experienced is people in like 12-step meetings, um, sponsorship and things like that. Um that would probably be, and that's more of like an informal, I guess, you know, it's not technically peer support, but it is the spirit of peer support is there.

SPEAKER_04

It might not be certified, but being surrounded by like-minded people is always beneficial.

SPEAKER_03

People with experience.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. Um so it's sort of a double-edged sword, right? Like there's the initial stigma surrounding peer support as a concept in in substance use treatment, but now that it is a more well-established system, how do y'all think that peer support helps combat stigma in a substance use treatment space? You know, even in in 2026, there is it's it's heartbreaking how much stigma there is surrounding people in recovery and people in active use. Um, what do peer supports specialists do in terms of advocating for those individuals and reducing that stigma?

SPEAKER_03

We've we prove people wrong.

SPEAKER_02

We clock in, we clock in on time, tell the truth, we take care of our children, we pay our bills, we um show up clean and not strung out. Yeah. Um, let's see, what else do we do?

SPEAKER_03

Well, and I feel like when you show up, um, people can think, well, you don't fit the part. I would have never thought that about you. You know, we share our story when appropriate. I mean, uh, to our coworkers, yeah, the systems, you know.

SPEAKER_02

And they say, Oh my gosh, you don't look like a drug addict. And I say, Thank you. Thank you so much. I am so glad that I no longer look like 90 days of county jail.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, yeah, and just that's that statement, you know, like you don't look like that tells you they have a a stereotype in their mind of what they think um someone with substance use disorder. Yeah, somebody with substance use disorder looks like.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_03

When really, in fact, that's not true. Right.

SPEAKER_02

But you put a different faith on it. And then people can have compassion. I think one of the biggest things that peer support does is when we sit in offices like or we show up at DSS or we show up at the courthouse and they see somebody that actually made it to the other side.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Especially in the court system, because it's just so, you know, people show back up and show back up, and people get really burnt out on helping people. It feels like you're not doing anything, nothing's happening. And then when you can show up there and be like, oh yes, yes, that helped me. I'm different today. There's hope. Yeah, like don't give up on, don't give up on our people.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You can't, you're not allowed to because now I'm looking at you in the face. And I was the person who would have never, we would not have been on the list of people who would make it out alive.

SPEAKER_01

No.

SPEAKER_02

Ever.

SPEAKER_01

And yet here we are, right?

SPEAKER_02

And that's helpful too, because people know us, they know us from, and then if they don't know us, I carry around my um my wrap sheet sometimes just to yeah, yeah, it's heavy.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and that that was one thing I loved about last time we spoke is that where y'all are, people know the Cassies. Yeah, you stroll into the courthouse, they're like, okay, we have to treat this person with compassion, yeah. And and treat them with humanity, or Cassie is gonna lay us a new one. Yeah, which is which is awesome.

SPEAKER_03

And it's that that checkpoint too. Oh, remember? Yeah, you do. Yeah, you know. I mean, desperate people will do desperate things because they're in that state. I mean, anybody's capable of that. People, I feel like they don't realize what it's like to be, you know, in that state of living. I mean, and and thankfully for them, they've never been there. But if you if you have walked that path, it's not a far leap for anyone to find themselves in spaces, in behaviors that they wouldn't typically do.

SPEAKER_02

And I think that is part of it. Fear. We've talked about this many times. Anytime that we come up against somebody, a person who is just really, really like shut down about recovery, shut down about people with substance use. You know, they just nothing, nothing positive to say, what happened to them? Which one of their loved ones? Yeah. Is it their child?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Somebody, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of big feelings around substance use and mental health too. A lot of um big feelings about substance use and a lot of not knowing, I think, about mental health. That's what I see a lot.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Um and they just want, you know, you just want to block it out and pretend like it's not there because if you let it in, then the truth will come out. Yeah. Right. So being able to meet that with grace.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And not anger. And, you know, like blood.

SPEAKER_04

I think the most harmful perspective that I've seen is people framing it as a willful choice that people choose a path of substance use. Um and I feel like that's still a very present viewpoint. Um, but I think I think we are seeing improvement. Do y'all do y'all think that no one would ever choose it? Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think the the like the initial mindset is, oh, they chose to to pick it up in the first place. But it's just like sure we did.

SPEAKER_02

You can't and thank goodness, thank the good Lord above that when you picked it up, you didn't stay there.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Ever I mean, I think it is more common that people try something. They try something, whether it's, you know, smoking, drinking, whatever it is. But if it doesn't grab a hold of you the same, that's a blessing. Um some people they're not that lucky.

SPEAKER_02

That perfect storm. And everything lines up.

SPEAKER_04

And back to the will for choice, there's so many there's genetic components, there's environmental components, there's there's epigenetic, there are genes that predispose you to being more more um more likely to become addicted to to a substance. So it's you know, that is the that is the mentality that we need to disparage, is that people are are choosing this path.

SPEAKER_02

It's coping. It's coping. We learn how to cope where we are, right? With what we have.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And if you find yourself needing to cope, yeah. Yeah, stay there.

SPEAKER_03

I agree with that. I mean, my you know, for me, like I wasn't raised with substances in my home at all. But my mom always told me, she said, People in our family cannot drink. People in our family do not ever need to take substances at all, because she had seen things that I had never seen. She had experienced things through her childhood that I I was blessed to not know about. I mean, and it's like when I did drink for the first time, all the all the bells went off. You know, I was really good at it, you know.

SPEAKER_02

You also were a person who nobody, I mean you were intelligent. You're so intelligent. She's smart, she's so smart. That's why she goes to school all the time.

SPEAKER_04

I can gather that at the yard.

SPEAKER_02

All the time, okay? All the time. She's probably going to school now and we just don't even know it. Are you good looking, aren't you? Anyway, she won't tell me, she's shaking her head, but she's so smart, and everyone loved her. We went to school together. We've known each other for all almost all the days of our lives. And nobody would have thought that she would be the person who wound up completely entangled in addiction. Nobody. Nobody who knew you. I mean, we didn't grow up like the that kiddo that just never had a chance. But we did. We did have a chance. It got us too. It doesn't discriminate.

SPEAKER_04

Well, if you have any experience whatsoever in in substance use, you realize that it really can impact anybody.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04

Um, with I mean, again, people with every advantage can develop a a substance use disorder. It's it's the nature of the beast. Um, so again, that that too should be used to disparage that idea of a willful choice. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Huh. And it doesn't mean that parents did something wrong or family members did something wrong. Yeah. You know, I think that's another thing why we can't do that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it definitely impacts for sure. Yeah. I feel like people are like, it's hard to look at that. Like, what have I done to cause that? I think a lot again, big feelings. I think a lot of people have um a lot of um guilt, maybe self-blame about you know, the choices maybe their kids make. But really, I mean, it it happens, it happens every day. And I was warned, actively warned about it. And I was also a rule-following human being that found myself in a situation where other people, my my peers, were doing engaging in this behavior, and in in the interest of being part of instead of different than I joined in this behavior, then I really didn't understand what the consequences were.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You know, my mom told me, but it was an abstract concept. I didn't understand, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I'd never heard of um pill addiction until after I was addicted.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I didn't know that that was even you go to the doctor and you do what they say. I was raised to follow rules and follow doctor's directions. I was raised by intelligent, kind people who taught me that. It wasn't in my house. I I didn't know. I really didn't know. Trust and believe I found out quickly and made lots of bad choices after that. Like it wasn't like it just, oh, it happened to me. But honestly, I did not know that. I mean, people had problems with alcohol, you know. But I can remember the you know, the first time somebody told me that they wanted a bottle of pain pills that my LB doctor had given me because I was pregnant. That's when I first got a prescription for pain medicine. I was pregnant, I was 18.

SPEAKER_04

So much of it starts when with a prescription, you know. Like I would say maybe even a majority of here.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yes. And a lot of that, you know, comes from pharmaceutical companies over distributing pain pills, which likely we're seeing a decline in now.

SPEAKER_02

Um the opioid epidemic that actually they named 10 years late.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. That one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And Cassie and I have lived long enough on this earth to watch our community be sucked in to OxyContin. Um, and how it changed. I mean, it just changed it changed everything. It did. It changed the landscape of the um the like the social order. I mean, it just changed everything. I mean, it was def it was devastating.

SPEAKER_02

We went from alcoholism being primary, I would say, in our in our um area. Neck of the woods. That's what I was gonna say, neck of the woods, to complete opioid. And we never even I'd never even heard of opioid dependence.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Ever till it had me.

SPEAKER_04

Now with synthetic opioids and fentanyl, it's just the danger factor in me is is skyrocketing, which is terrifying.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it is terrifying.

SPEAKER_04

So sort of switching gears. Um, we've talked about how peer support is finally, I feel like peer support is seeing an uptick in in how much it's being utilized in a substance use treatment space. How can clinics uh interested in incorporating peer support specialists give their peers their peer their peers a platform to succeed? Like how do they allow them to perform to the best of their ability as peer support specialists?

SPEAKER_02

Accountability.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I feel like believing in you, believing believing in the in the spirit of peer support, understanding it. How does this work? I think a lot of times um people with a lot of formal education, I I feel like they miss the point or miss the benefit of peer support until they really can see it for themselves. I mean, for someone to come in and really say what's going on for them, there has to be a lot of safety there, a lot of emotional safety that frankly you just don't feel often when someone's sitting on the other side of a desk. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_01

Someone with a lot of formal education. Are the are there people with formal education?

SPEAKER_02

More than you. I'm just asking. Listen, whatever. I think anyone value in what we have to say, what we bring to the table. If you really want to know, then find as much value in what we have to say. And we have that where we work.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And I think anybody who's been to a doctor's office knows it's sometimes hard to tell the doctor what's going on. You know, even for basic checkups, you know, you're like you're hesitant, you're like, that's a little your brain goes offline.

SPEAKER_02

It's a power they have the power to either help you feel better or not help you.

SPEAKER_03

I think people have a tendency to say everything is fine. Of course we do.

SPEAKER_04

So people exactly, you know, you can't even imagine going to a clinic as a person who has been stigmatized their entire lives or since the inception of their substance use.

SPEAKER_05

Yes.

SPEAKER_04

And always being judged. And so now they're just supposed to go to a doctor and be willing to lay everything out on the table. I mean, that's an unrealistic expectation. But when you're speaking to someone with lived experience that you know has been in your shoes, your comfort in in speaking the truth about what you're struggling with, I feel like skyrockets. Yeah. And I think that's a huge, huge thing that y'all provide. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And it's not about like, um, we got you, you know, we now that you've told everything. It's more of how can we best help you with what is what is actually true and what is happening now? Like how can we use that information and that support to build the best treat treatment plan based on what the the patient or the client's goals are? Absolutely. Not not the provider's goals.

SPEAKER_02

That's funny that you even said that. People are the experts on themselves, even people who use drugs.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Especially.

SPEAKER_04

That's like the um the concept of you can't force people to recovery. All you can do is leave the door open. Yeah. They have to choose their own path and they have to approach you ready to pursue recovery. And then once once they dis make that decision, that's where you come in and you can and you can show them the path to recovery. So speak on that a little bit. Speak on how, you know, how much do you push somebody to recovery or how much do you encourage them versus entirely saying, listen, when you're ready, I'm here.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. We're like the Motel 6, we'll leave the light on for you. Exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. We we accept you just as you are. Yep. No judgment. I always tell people in my room, the only judgment in this room is what you bring in with you. Right? Doors open. Yeah. I mean, and if something should change, that the the door is always open, you know. I mean, and it doesn't mean that, you know, we can't still support them. Yeah. You know, even if they're not ready to make any steps in any, you know, in it anywhere different.

SPEAKER_02

That's a step in itself. It is being in the room.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Right? So if you're just willing to listen for a second or even just hold a space where you're willing to even have a conversation with us about it. Because so many times people come in, especially groups, and they're like, I don't know why I'm here. I don't want to quit doing dog.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_04

But they're there.

SPEAKER_02

But what do you want to do? Okay, good. Now that we've covered that, um, like, so what's going on with you? Like, what do you want to do?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And sometimes it's basically, I just want to come here so I can get my medicine and go home. Okay. Well, I'm glad you're alive today. I mean, it's just like and encouraging people, we can encourage people, but we can't we can encourage them when they're ready to hear. And sometimes that's just like, hey, yeah, I know. Yeah, I used to come here to this doctor. Oh yeah, I've been, I've been, I've been committed to that place before. Yes. This is not my first time. Yeah. Um and if we can keep that communication open where people can be like, oh, really? And then all of a sudden they might hear something you say.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Just might. Um, because they've already been told they're too dumb. Or they're a drug addict and their opinion doesn't matter, they're worthless, they're stupid, they're incapable, right? We are, right? We are. We don't know how to make decisions for ourselves. Someone needs to tend to us. Um, yeah, right. Poor little dumb drug addict.

SPEAKER_03

When really it takes a lot of skills to live that life.

SPEAKER_02

Please do not let me insult you thinking that you're not quite capable of doing whatever it is you set your mind to.

SPEAKER_03

I think that is the main there's nothing harder in this life I've ever faced than trying to stay home all the time. So anything after that is possible. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Fast forward five years. How about um nothing is harder than staying not dope sick?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Because high leaves. High leaves. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And you know, I feel like that's it though. It's uh keeping the the relationship um based on how can I show up the best for you today. If there's I mean, even if it's, you know, just let you, you know, just be in the space without feeling the pressure that you have to change something. I think that's super valuable. And that communicates a message, like you matter to me. It doesn't it's not based on your behavior. Or your drug test. Yeah. I mean, that's what I mean. It's not based on behaviors. It's based on the fact that we value you as a human no matter what. You know.

SPEAKER_02

Because people will say, Oh, did you see I failed the drug test? I'm sorry. No, I didn't see, I didn't look. I didn't know I needed to look. Because how you show up and are things getting better in your life is so much more important than what is stealing your system. Right? So if your life's moving forward, then what does that look like to you? That's another thing we get caught up in when um we have an idea of how people's lives should be. Right? This means recovery to me. So why are you not doing these things? Wait a second. That's my recovery, that's not yours. Yeah, like what do you want in your life?

SPEAKER_03

It's not about you. That's the thing. It's like it's not about us, it's about them and what and what they want.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, because if we could fix, we would have already. Yeah, we would have fixed everyone, we would be busy on the road fixing people with all on, right? Ding ding ding. But we can't. Yeah, but we can't.

SPEAKER_04

Thinking you in anybody thinking they have the the right to revoke somebody else's autonomy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

If you find yourself anywhere near that, you should take a step back.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely for sure. Absolutely. And it happens so often. Yeah. And we work in the world of doctors who are going to fix you, right? They go to school, they want to help.

SPEAKER_04

They were trained to fix.

SPEAKER_02

They are, and they want to. It comes from a good place. Um, and sometimes they get in a hurry. It's funny. We'll go in the room and like, oh, so-and-so needs to go to ear note and throws. Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Ear note, ear note and throws.

SPEAKER_03

Ear nose and throat, I think. What did I say? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Anyway, listen, they need to go get their their head checked, okay, by a different doctor. Formal education. Anyway, so doctor sends us in, like, hey, like, um, so when's your appointment? Okay, well, I could take you. I don't have an entrance card. Okay, maybe we have it on file and I can call and see if they have, you know, your number. Well, uh, I'm like, do you want to go? Well, not right now. Okay, why didn't you tell me that when I came in, right? Yeah, and no worries. That's a check mark for me though. Like, am I going in the room deciding that I know what somebody needs, no matter what anybody else said? Because this particular person really did not have a bed yet. They had a place to live and they had food. But their number one concern was having a place to sleep. She wanted blankets and a sleeping bag, and then for us to help her find a mattress. She wasn't worried about going to have her nose or what did I say? Ear nose and throat. But that wasn't her concern. And that's just that right there is peer support.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, there's a basic hierarchy of needs for human beings and and food, water, yes, a place to sleep, shelter, clothing. That that is always gonna be the priority. It doesn't matter what other what else you have going on in your life, there are things that take priority.

SPEAKER_02

And when we walk into a doctor's office, there are so many people working in that doctor's office that it has never crossed their mind. Thank God.

SPEAKER_04

Because they have a place to sleep, they've never been to work.

SPEAKER_02

They're like, what?

SPEAKER_04

They've never thought about where is my next meal gonna come from. I never have. I've always had a place to sleep. I've always had a meal. I've always you know, I've never had to worry about it.

SPEAKER_02

And we're so happy. Like we don't ever want that to happen, but also um it happens every day, yes, and you know that. I know you know that. Um, and the you know, when people come with that idea, it's it it's not negative about them, right? It's just a different perspective, it's ignorance, right? It's ignorance, and unknown is just unknowing, right? Yeah, yeah. So when you value what we have to say and say, that's what peers apart, that's the difference, that's the advocacy. Because when I go in to tell this doctor, who's a very dear friend of mine, um she just needs somewhere to sleep. She doesn't want to go to this to this doctor's apartment. Well, she needs to, yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_04

But she needs a place to sleep. But maybe next time.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I'll take her whenever. And so that's what we say, you know. Listen, if this comes on your list and you want to go, here is the phone number. If you don't get an answer here, call the front desk and tell them to have me call you. We'll get you there.

SPEAKER_03

They can't even think about that yet. No, no, it just doesn't matter yet, you know. Maybe it will help you. You know, things change, you know, as you go along, but to have your basic needs met is super important.

SPEAKER_02

It's like get there quicker if they have a place to sleep.

SPEAKER_04

It doesn't take much insight to say think if I didn't have a bed tonight, would I be concerned about going to the doctor? The answer is no.

SPEAKER_05

That's right.

SPEAKER_04

But and it's like you got to you have to place yourself in that other person's before you make assumptions.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

SPEAKER_04

Um, and I think again, as peer supports, y'all help make that connection. Like, oh, maybe maybe going to the ear, nose, and throat isn't the biggest worry. Maybe they need a food, maybe or then maybe they need a meal, maybe they need a bed.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, maybe I should ask them what they need. That's the piece.

SPEAKER_04

There you go. That's the piece. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I get I'll speak for myself. Sometimes I do get caught up in that though, you know. When I walk or a doctor or a nurse or somebody, you know, somebody at work's like, hey, could you check in with so-and-so? They need this. And that day I got in a hurry. And that's why it makes me think I was like, Yeah, oh yeah, I know better than this. I was like, I am so sorry. I am so sorry.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like I just completely listened to them instead of you.

SPEAKER_04

Well, it's I mean, it's easy, you know? Yeah, it's it's you can't be on the ball at all times, but it's important to know when you slip. Like if you're the patient, yeah, and make repair.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, acknowledge it, acknowledge your humanity. You are to make repair. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

There's a lot of moving pieces in in in the realm of substance use treatment. You just have to be willing to, you know, apologize.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like cultural humility. It's super. Yeah. We don't you don't always know. You know, you can't assume anything. And being willing to ask questions in a kind and respectful way and and let the person lead. You're not the lead. I always tell people, I'm on this journey with you. I'm you're driving this bus. I'm just along for the ride.

SPEAKER_01

If you're not driving, we have a problem because I can't drive for you.

SPEAKER_04

So we spoke about this before, and it was kind of funny. Y'all sort of you didn't call me out, but you're like, think about the way you just said that.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, what did I say?

SPEAKER_04

Oh no, no, no. It was funny. Oh, I know that's yeah. Okay. It was so you have your own unique recovery stories, right? Your path to recovery. Yes. And I said, when you meet a patient with a what I the way I phrase it was with a particularly challenging recovery.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_04

How do you provide insight and how do you broaden your ability to provide insight for people with recovery stories so vastly different from yours? And the the thing was, I said challenging. And it's like, what does that mean? What is a challenging recovery? All of these are challenging.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, okay. Yeah, I don't remember that. No, it's yeah, I don't remember saying that, but it's true. And some of them do look more challenging to people on the outside, right? But they rarely look more challenging to us than what's right in front of our face. Um, and we don't know everything. People we think some yeah, yeah, yeah. And recovery is what you say it is, if um, and how it affects your life, because that's another piece of it. So if I say I'm in recovery, it's not up to Cassie to say I'm not. It doesn't matter what the she can say, um, these these things you're doing have consequences that you may not like. That can be a fact, but if I still identify in recovery, it's fine. You can't have it, right?

SPEAKER_03

Well, I think about like, you know, there's when you think about like the from a medical perspective, because we both work in a you know in a in a medical setting, um, you can look at people who have a little bit more complex health needs or barriers, you know, whichever way you choose to look at it. Um, or like social determinants of health, um, those kind of factors too. Uh, what is their support system? Limited, you know, oftentimes. So those kind of um factors can make it look like, ah, this is so, you know, hard. But what we don't stop and consider is those individuals have had different life experiences in general, and they have a lot of resilience to be in front of you. So let's not count them out. You can't count anybody out, you know. It's how can we help you with where you're at, you know? I mean, I don't feel like even though people do have specific barriers or challenges, you know, um, that they're they can't overcome them, you know, and they have skills that you've never even thought of, you know, to do that.

SPEAKER_04

And the resilience that has stemmed from those challenges could be your biggest asset.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely pursuing recovery.

SPEAKER_04

Um so yeah, and one thing we addressed last time was learning to love people in recovery and watching how you speak, watching your own stigma. And what I've noticed is that you two in particular, and every peer I've ever interacted with is very, very forgiving when you say something. It's easy to slip up and say something stigmatizing or not on not on purpose, but you say something and you reflect and you're like, that sounded insensitive or that sounded ignorant.

SPEAKER_02

Um, but but everything to do with intent.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

We know you're not gonna say anything that will offend us if you're intent. And you can feel it when you talk to somebody, right? Like you know how they feel about you when they open their mouth. You can't say the wrong thing to us. You really can't. If you're intent, yeah, and it doesn't come from a place of ugly, it comes from a place of just not being comfortable in it. And people want to be careful and not insult us, right? And if you like we we feel it coming, right? Like it just be that's a kindness that you're gifting us with. Um the only time is if you're talking about one of our people, then if you call them something that is not um doesn't feel good.

SPEAKER_03

I think too, though, that's comes from that place of like having a lot of recovery because she and I both have been in recovery a long time and we've done a lot of on this journey on this side. I feel like when you're new to recovery or just considering recovery, that you yourself have judged yourself so harshly. There's so much shame that comes with use and and and mental health too. Um, that I think you have those lenses on too. Like you can come, like when I say that to people, like the only judgment in this room is what you bring in with you. People automatically assume and they're they're you know, they're kind of it's a self-preservation, you know, like you prepare yourself to be treated, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Like you see yourself.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, like see yourself. And it's not necessarily how someone else in front of you sees you, but I feel like there's it's kind of like having your guard up. And I think um to be really aware of that, um, that people have their own feelings towards themselves. I know that I did. Um, and I didn't really have any standards on like how people treated me. It just, you know, I didn't take up for myself when people treated me poorly. And honestly, I can't even think of a time that sticks out to me in my mind that that happened to me while I was using, because look, nothing anyway, any way that anybody talked to me or treated me could not compare with the way I saw myself and talked to myself and treated myself. Yes, truthfully. Accurate, accurate. Um, but I do agree it's your intent. Um, people are very resilient. Um, and if you notice yourself, you say something that you upon review or or you look at that person's face, and you can tell you said something that was uh maybe didn't land how you wanted it to. You just make that make the repair, you know, you just make the repair. I'm so sorry. That's all that I meant. That didn't sound good. Yeah, even when you say you don't look the part, so what that that also says in there is that's a compliment, but there's also that bias, and um it's like mmm, you know, that that may not land like you want it to. Um, so I mean you can look over that as we would choose to look over that, but some of them may not be there yet. And is that an excuse? No, it isn't.

SPEAKER_02

Why do we choose that? Why do we choose to look over that? Because we want all the people that will love the likes of us to keep.

SPEAKER_03

I'm not letting anybody bring me down today. It's not that. That's what I think.

SPEAKER_02

And the intent, like if you're or if you're attempting to love the likes of me and my people, like you've got grace here. Does that make sense? Like you have grace because well, you're teachable too. Well, that's because you come with that loving heart, yeah, right? And I want to make sure that you feel welcomed, not pushed out.

SPEAKER_04

You're not playing gotcha, you know. No, it's it's it's no, I'm exactly. It's I'm I'm learning. Yeah, we all are. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So how how do I, you know, everything to do with intent and less to do with language.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. That's a great way to put it. I like that. Um I guess now, let's see. How about let's talk about interaction with the Department of Social Services and and the court visits and what obviously a lot of it comes down to advocacy, but also guidance, and you've been through the process. Talk to me about your how you act as an advocate and a guide for people in recovery through the Department of Social Services.

SPEAKER_03

Every step of the way. Whether that's in community meetings, speaking on on in public forums about, you know, the experiences of people who are on the other side of the desk dealing with systems, um, humanizing those folks with our own story of recovery. Um, we're not different than them in the in the respect of we have been on that other side, whether it's with the legal system or the social services, you know, with in that both context. Um, I think about uh I do a lot of I have a lot of conversation with folks about advocating for self, also setting healthy boundaries for self, but in that too, kind of um even when we don't like it, sometimes we have to do the thing, you know, like sometimes we have to go to that class that we don't feel like you know we're mad about, basically.

SPEAKER_02

The space where we sit.

SPEAKER_03

Is that um always the fair? No. But it's about checking that boxing and getting them out of your life, basically. And go to the class. You know, the class is probably not gonna hurt you, just go to the class, even if you don't agree with why you're being asked to go to the class. And I'm not saying that that is um okay in every I mean, you know, I'm not saying that I understand having big feelings about that.

SPEAKER_02

Why wouldn't you have a big feeling? Because all of a sudden they hold every single thing that matters to you in their hands. Yeah, they have all the power. And myself, one of the one of the biggest things that I find people are like, oh my gosh, thank you, is going to meetings or going to court with people when they're in the middle of that and being able to hear what's going on because my head's not roaring. It's not my children. I know what that roar sounds like. You can't hear, it matters too much. You can't remember the details. You're gonna get mad, right? And then you're going to get a yeah, a slap on the wrist for your attitude from the court system or the DSS. Like, let me be the person that asks the questions. That's so helpful. Right. Let me be the person that they're gonna turn their, you know, and because listen, DSS court people they have they're worn out, they don't have the resources, right, that they need. They are drowning in kids that really need help, in people that are just return offenders, right? We're just offenders. They themselves don't have the capacity to actually sit down with each and every person, lay it out for them, and then help help them go through it because the system's complicated. And anybody that thinks it's just has never been in handcuffs. Yeah, period. So um just being that extra ears and eyes, making notes about what the judge said, making notes about what the DSS people. Say, and then being able to tell the person, yes, maybe it's not right you have to do this. You can be right all the way to Raleigh Central, and you still will be locked up. You can be right, yeah, all day long, and they're still going to keep your children.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Or this is going to delay the process. Yes. You know? So like if you want your kids back, you just do the case plan.

SPEAKER_02

And saying that, and it's hard to say that to people, right? Like it's hard to look at somebody who you know what they feel like because you sat there more than once.

SPEAKER_03

And how unfair systems are. They are. They are not perfect, they're broken systems.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. But being able to sit there in that space and say, Yes, I know you're right. And this is your choice. And then also sometimes saying, if you're not able to do this, then you're just not able to do it.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I understand that. Yeah. Right? Yes. It doesn't change us wanting you to be well or okay, or how much we'll help you.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like it doesn't, it doesn't change.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Just being able to say those hard truths from a place. Um of love and compassion.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. I mean, and and true empathy of having, you know, been there. I mean, I get I get angry with the system too, still. So I understand why they're angry. You know, it makes me angry. And at the end of the day, it's like, what's what's the goal? What is their goal? What's the most important thing? And how can we help support you in meeting your goal?

SPEAKER_02

Also, every time we show up, I have we've we've built relationships with people in the department, with social workers, with probation, with the judges, with the DA, right? With different law enforcement. And so when I can look at you and say, Hey, I know her. My daughter went to school with a social worker, right? That is coming to take your children away. I know that lady. She does not have a hard heart. She loves people. She's not out to get you, I promise. And being able to say that with complete certainty, right? That no, yeah, the system might be, but this particular social worker does not feel that way. I promise. And if you'll keep going, she'll show you. And I'll go with you every step of the way. And don't think I won't be keeping up with everything they say and holding them to it. And I'll make them actually pull up the the court, what's it called? The document. What's that person called? Yeah, the court reporter. Yeah, her. And you can pull it back up, and I remember exactly what the judge said.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And the social worker can be mad, but she won't be because she'll know where my heart's coming from. That is crucial.

SPEAKER_03

Well, I think about too, the first time I was ever handed a case plan with DSS. I mean, it was daunting. And I was so my brain was offline. I was so in crisis. I mean, the thought that I would ever be facing a time when I didn't have my children.

SPEAKER_02

But she wasn't that person, okay? She's not that person.

SPEAKER_03

Well, and I think it could be anyone. No, I was not, no, I was not raised to do these things, quote unquote. You know, I was uh that was not, but I was unwell. I was unwell from substance use. I mean, period. And, you know, the what how valuable would it have been had there been someone to sit walk alongside me with that, their brain online, because they can be the objective person in the room to take in the information and to give me some guidance. That would have been so valuable, but there I've never heard of peer support at that point.

SPEAKER_02

Um and certainly not at DSS.

SPEAKER_03

No, absolutely not. And, you know, I mean, I do feel like that is where peer support can be so helpful. It's just one place, but it's it's that advocacy, that um person to be the more objective one that's not so emotional.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. You know, you can't expect someone to harness their emotions when they are at risk of losing their children.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, forget it. Against you too, because all of a sudden you're violent and unmanageable and causing unrest, and then they want to, you know, s um push you out the door for the next case to come in.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's because they're also overworked. Right. And that's what I'm saying. You know, all of those things. And I'm again, I don't love the way that the system necessarily operates, but I also understand that the needs are overwhelming and the and there's few people, you know, compared to the caseloads.

SPEAKER_02

And the resources. Um, see, where we live, like we think Ashwell has everything, and maybe they do, right? But there's limited resources and there's barriers that um like transportation and I mean transportation internet access. Right. Where we live, that's different, say, from a more urban area. Right. So not only do you have a case plan, but then you don't have a driver's license, you probably have a probation officer. You need to go to the doctor, and how are you gonna get to your child's visits?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And how are you gonna get a job and do all the meetings they want you to do?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah, I forgot about those. Yes. You know, so just go ahead and take that case plan and slap the social worker in the face and just leave because you're not getting your kids, right? And you're just gonna drag it out.

SPEAKER_04

And I just can't even imagine you have this laundry list of things that you have to do this, this, this, this, this, and this if you want to see your kids again. Not having an advocate with that burden on your shoulders would be I mean, that seems impossible.

SPEAKER_03

And with the allegation against you of you're using drugs, not you're abusing your children. And I'm not saying that kids get the best care when people are using. I'm what I'm saying is it's it's yeah. Here, let me take your kids away, and now you get it all together.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, right. You know, the only thing that in this world that you cared about and was you was keeping you together.

SPEAKER_02

You just took every single reason that every reason is gone.

SPEAKER_04

Like they think they're giving you an incentive.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

But they're taking away your your support system and your reason. Your reason.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Because I mean, truly, I mean, it's hard to and there are to value yourself um if you started out in life valuing yourself after you have walked that path. It is a hard road. You know?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And back to the systemic factors. I mean, a lot of these people in the DSS and elsewhere are good.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. They do not go into that work to get rich.

SPEAKER_04

Compassion fatigue is a very, very reasonable. Yes, it is. And you only have so much that you can give. And so I think, you know, with one of you there behind the desk with your client. I don't know if you refer to them as a client or whatever. People, they're people saying, I know your heart and I know you're a kind person. Let's speak like you're a kind person. Yeah. Let don't don't be overruled by the fact that the system is broken and that you're overworked. This is another human being in front of you. And you have to speak to them as if you care about them as much as anybody else.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So I think in in keeping people accountable, yeah, um, peer support is is huge.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think so too. It's the best, and it's just the absolute and people want people to succeed. I mean, really, whether I don't care what system it is, they want to see successes. But I feel like people get brokenhearted when they see people um make some steps and then go, you know, make some other steps. You know, I mean, I feel like it's I've got to guard my heart, and then what happens is your your heart's not in the work because it's too hard. I mean, and that's real. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. That was a really nice way to put it. I don't think I've ever heard you say it that way, but it's perfect. It's the best part of my job and the hardest part of my job. And the best part of my job. All at the same time.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. We have, you know, because every now and then someone, it'll just take your breath away when you see what they're when some when you see like you know they're capable of it, but when somebody else sees that they're capable of it, how about when they see they're capable of it?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I know. I was thinking about our person who has the pretty hair. So the pretty hair on the Facebook. Okay, well, yes. I think that this person finally figured out that she's worth it. Good. She's done that, right? Yeah. She never well, she was a definite, never had a chance. You know, oh, they never had a chance. How often do you hear somebody say that? We do we hear that a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And maybe that's what's problematic when I say more difficult recoveries is I'm implying that they might not be able to make it when in reality.

SPEAKER_03

When they're tougher than most.

SPEAKER_02

That comes from a place of actually having caring and having compassion for people and realizing that their situation's hard.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah. Right? It's validating the struggle and also empowering and giving hope and recognizing that those people um have skills that again we will never have. We don't have to. Yeah. You know, they're capable.

SPEAKER_02

I think about one of my um one of my people who I mean, I don't know if I can actually give details without if I have to be very careful. Homeless, living in the shack on the side of a mountain, um, using their car battery to charge their phone, carrying water, pregnant, no job, father of child, and gone, MIA, and then it's cold, no family support.

SPEAKER_03

And once you've experienced hard things like that, and I mean I've been homeless like three times in my lifetime. So, I mean, those skills though, let me tell you something. When the hurricane happened, uh, the skills came back immediately, and I was siphoning gas with a hose.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, people were like they couldn't get contact with people.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Listen, I was in prison. You might you get a mail, you hear me, mail that comes to you when someone decides to mail it to you, and then the mail room decides that they've gone through it and you can look at it. Okay, you can't call home unless you've got money and somebody's gonna answer. So learning to sit in a place where I don't know everything's okay, I trained for that. Right? I've slept without power and water many, many, many times. So I feel like that ain't nothing.

SPEAKER_03

No, I mean, and I don't want to minimize anyone's experience. You know, I would I don't wish that on people, but also their skills and experiences, there's things you take away. It's using all those skills for the building up of other people, you know, using those all those experiences that we've had, and that's what peer support is is like using those experiences for the betterment of others, really. It redeems the past, it gives purpose to the suffering when we can help someone else.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. Because I mean, at the end of the day, it's us. We are them, right? We are them, and they are us, and they are just as capable. And um I like to tell people that too. Please don't let me try to insult you that I don't think you are not capable of getting all the things that you need and having the life that you want. Let me know when you're ready.

SPEAKER_03

If I can help you in any way, I will.

SPEAKER_02

Right. And just like literally meaning that, and also respecting people's right to not accept it. Yeah, to not self-determination yet.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_03

No one could ever force me. I can tell you that right now.

SPEAKER_02

And that's how we stay. That's how we stay well in this work. Yeah. People often say, I don't know how you do it. Like, how do you leave and go home? Told Cass we it's easy. Because at the end of the day, there's I I can leave work or leave a con knowing that there's absolutely nothing I can do to save anybody. Because nobody could save me.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um and being okay with that. Yeah. But other people don't understand that in the way that we do. That's the difference. That's the difference between doctors and professionals and people who truly just want to help people, but but they they can't save people and they take on something and it's not theirs.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You have no right to take on someone else's determination.

SPEAKER_03

Their recovery, their right to choose.

SPEAKER_02

Either way.

SPEAKER_03

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Either way. Um, and in a way that's freeing. It's also scary. But it's how that I've not been burned out in this work. And don't think sometimes that one person will like almost ride home with you in your head, right? You're like, well, I uh when I start saying uh uh I yeah, I know I need to take a step back. Yeah, because it's not uh I could have or I oh that's another one. Oh, I helped you. What? No, when it comes to uh I then I've crossed the boundary. I need to back it up, yeah. Yeah, and also holding space for people when they've had all the resources you can throw at them, right? And then they they they choose to not use them or be well or stop engaging, period. Right, yeah, right. So that's something we see a lot too. You get mad at these people, like you had it.

SPEAKER_03

Why didn't you because you have too much invested and you just take a step back if you find yourself with resentment or bitterness, you are too invested in someone else's process. That's my fault.

SPEAKER_04

Well, again, back I mean, back to compassion fatigue. If you invest full, like you have to let people choose. If you try and choose for everybody, yeah, and you try and you get resentful, you try and fix everything, and it doesn't work well. You get frustrated and you you can't give much more, and it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_03

I mean it because it's it's not theirs.

SPEAKER_04

All right, so in our final few minutes here, um, I would like to talk about I would like to talk about um what are the steps to becoming a peer support specialist for a person listening to this episode in long-term recovery who wants to get involved. Um, Cassie York, you sent me a resource from the DHHS about the process to applying and becoming a peer support specialist. Talk me through what it looked like for y'all and if it's changed and what what people need to do to get into this line of work.

SPEAKER_03

I think it has changed. I think they've increased the um training hours from 40. It was 40 when we took the training, and now it's 50 with 20 hours of continuing education. Um, you have to have 18 months of sustained recovery from substance use andor mental health challenges. And it was a year, I think, wasn't it? So they upped it six months. Yeah. So that has changed. Um, but you still apply. Um I think UNC has a platform where you can apply through North Carolina. I'm sure different states are different. Um, but you have to have like some references. There's a there's an official application process and then you go through that for approval. There's an ethics course, I think, too, part of that, like three hours of ethics training and signing the pure support code of ethics. Um, and that's really to ensure that um that extra layer for people to um have healthy boundaries in this work for their, I mean, for the the wellness of others and themselves, you know. Um, but yeah, I mean that's that's the process. Like you find the training, like Cassie and I took a training through via health.

SPEAKER_02

Because I had a really good job, okay, or I thought I did, until Cassie called me one day and said, Hey, do you want to be a peer support specialist? And I said, No, what is that? And she told me, and I said, No, I have a job. And she said, Well, just pray about it and let me know. Six months later, well, it wasn't even that long. It was like three months later, and I quit my job with the 401k, my cushy job in the office, and I'm a felon, okay? So you you don't get jobs. So you think right? She said, just pray about it. Yes, but anyway, it was exactly what I was supposed to do. I had no idea what peer support was. And um, so that whole taking a peer support training, it was really eye-opening to me about other people's paths to recovery. Right. There's many different paths. That's another thing that is important when someone and the ethics too, like the bound the whole boundaries. And when we have we have people that intern with us, we have people who come through, you know, and and that we work with at the clinic and in the community that that that do go on and get their peer support. But one of the main things that they always come back and say is like I had no idea it was that complicated as far as ethics and boundaries and letting other people like I never thought about it like that. Just think about recovery. So that piece of it I think is crucial. It is to me. Yeah. Well, and we still have to do it, like still that self-check. Yeah, right. But there is a process and it is through UNC. And I think it's on the UNC peer support specialist. I can't remember.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, they have their own website. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I will look for so that resource and the one provided by North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and and on that website, they have like trainings, the peer support trainings, they have some options of ones you can apply.

SPEAKER_04

So for anybody looking to learn more about peer support, I will attach those resources to this episode. Thank y'all both so so much for for coming to Mayhack and being a part of this podcast um and just giving just a small, small amount of your immense knowledge on peer support and recovery. So thank y'all both for being here.

SPEAKER_02

No hardship to come talk to you about about what we care about for sure. For sure. Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for listening to this episode of our podcast, Just Us Before Birth and Beyond. To explore past episodes, learn more about Project Cara, or find a list of resources that were discussed today, please view the episode description. Like, follow us, and share the knowledge with all your networks. You will also find a survey link at the bottom of the episode description. We care about your thoughts, so please let us know your feedback. We hope you enjoyed this episode and please stay tuned for more.