Women & Money: The Shit We Don't Talk About!
Women & Money: The Shit We Don't Talk About!
Surviving Legal Abuse with Lisa Johnson
What if the system meant to protect you was actually making things worse?
This episode is a raw, honest, and empowering conversation about financial abuse, legal warfare, and what it takes to take back your power.
We’re sitting down with Lisa Johnson, the co-founder of Been There Got Out, a high conflict divorce strategist and certified domestic violence advocate who has successfully represented herself through scores of court appearances. Her case, published in the Connecticut Law Journal, is being used as legal precedent. Her live testimony helped pass Jennifers’ Law in Connecticut, the third state in America to expand its legal definition of domestic violence to include “coercive control.”
Lisa’s story? Buckle up. It’s part legal thriller, part comeback story, and ALL heart. She spent 7.5 years representing herself, went to court almost 100 times, fought off a $4M lawsuit, got her case published in the Connecticut Law Journal, and even helped pass Jennifer’s Law, which expanded the legal definition of domestic violence to include coercive control.
00:00 A Legal Nightmare Begins
00:57 Lisa Johnson’s Journey
02:48 The Long Battle: Self-Representation in Court
07:32 Legal Abuse: Understanding the Tactics
16:40 Finding Support and Staying Grounded
32:39 Financial Freedom and Empowerment
This one’s for any woman who’s felt overwhelmed by the legal system, ignored by the courts, or unsure where to even begin. Their book, "Been There Got Out: Toxic Relationships, High-Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances'' was released in March 2023. Their first course, “How to Communicate with Your Ex Without Destroying Your Case or Losing Your Mind” is out now!
If Lisa’s story hits home, join us for Money Talks on September 11 to learn how to financially prepare to leave a dangerous relationship. Click here to register for FREE and bring your questions!
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Maggie: [00:00:00] Mom, how many times have you been to court?
Barb: I've had to go to court years ago when I was early twenties for a speeding ticket, and then I had to go to court just one time when I was going through my divorce for the divorce. Last settlement thing, just to make it final. And I went by myself and it was just really, not even in a courtroom, it was more like in a little board room, but there was a judge there and an attorney and all that, and took about 20 minutes and that was it.
It was done.
Maggie: Well, that's a very exciting story.
Barb: Well, I'm glad. I mean, who wants to spend their time in court? Nobody,
Maggie: I don't know, I've had to go twice. One time I was for a speeding ticket and I had to go up and pleaded guilty and other people in front of me were getting charged and taken away in handcuffs. I remember us shaking and I looked at dad and I was like, what do I do? And he was like, I don't know. None of my three children have ever put me in this situation before.
I was like, that's why you have a third. And then I did have to take a lady to court 'cause [00:01:00] she never paid me. We had to do like a whole mediation. That one didn't have, as much of like a judge, but it was intimidating. I mean, especially the first time when like other people are getting charged. I've tried my best not to go back to court.
I thought I might shit my pants.
Barb: Yeah, it's intimidating, right? For sure. But
what if you had to be your own attorney?
Maggie: I think I would have to phone a friend
Barb: Or a few of 'em. What if you had to make 50 court appearances on your own and be your own attorney over a seven year process?
Maggie: that's gonna be a hard pass for me for sure. But, sometimes we don't have the luxury of those options of just taking a pass.
Barb: Because when you're fighting for yourself and your children, you will fight hard until the end. And that's what Lisa Johnson, our guest has done. Her story is an incredible one
Maggie: It leaves me speechless, honestly. Like, I don't know what words to put [00:02:00] around it. 'cause it's unreal, it's crazy. And I mean, she even changed some of the law. They use her case now as a case. people refer back to.
Barb: I think she should get a law degree
Maggie: I think she could just go take the test and get one. I don't think she has to actually go and do the schooling.
Barb: No, she should just be an honorary attorney. But yeah, she didn't even think she was getting a divorce. But what happened is she navigated this rocky, bumpy, hilly, horrible road where she did not. Have the money to really navigate it against her now ex-husband who dragged her through the court for years and years and years.
So she dug in her heels, read all the documents, learned what she needed to learn, fought for her children, fought for herself over 50. Court appearances, saving herself over a million dollars in fees, still paying off a lot of court fees for sure. An attorney, you know, [00:03:00] fees, but she has been there and she got out.
Maggie: She got the heck outta Dodge.
Barb: But now she's made Lemonade out of lemons. And now she's helping other women, right. Who are in these difficult divorce and that we're not just saying a tough divorce. We're talking crazy town divorces.
Maggie: I mean, none of 'em are easy, breezy, lemon squeezy, but I mean, yours seems pretty simple. Just going once after. I mean, we don't wanna compare, but we're comparing.
Barb: yeah, for sure. But no she's amazing and her story's powerful, so I think let's just share her story. Yeah.
Maggie: Let's go.
Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help [00:04:00] you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit we don't talk about.
Maggie: In today's episode, we have Lisa on who has quite a story. So Lisa, I'm just gonna go ahead and have you introduce yourself and just kind of share your story with the audience so we can just dive into this episode.
Lisa: Okay, so I will try not to go on too long, but it is a long story. I was with my ex for 20 years. I never thought I would get a divorce. I did everything I could, I thought, to keep the family intact and at some point it became more painful to stay than to leave, especially when I discovered that he had been living a double life the entire time.
And a lot of that involved money. And so I thought I was being really smart when I waited two years to get out of the marriage and I met with an attorney who within 20 minutes said, [00:05:00] yours is gonna be really bad. And I thought, how would you know something like that. And I interviewed him later long after the year long divorce and a hundred thousand dollars that is still being paid back.
And after that full year, my lawyer said that he said, your ex isn't gonna comply with these orders. And you can't afford me anymore. He's already decimated you in court. It's just gonna continue. So, you're gonna have to do it yourself and I'll be in the background if you need me, and we'll probably use a paralegal just so it doesn't get too expensive.
So he gave me some ideas to lay the groundwork for going pro se and I took about a year and a half off from court 'cause it had been relentless as you can imagine. And then, I went in for a modification for an educational support order because I had two kids and they were getting ready to go to college, and I had a volunteer attorney at the court take a look at the case and she said, you've got a fraud case, but fraud is gonna be really hard to prove, so I think you should try it as a [00:06:00] modification on top of the educational support.
So that began my seven and a half years of going pro se or being a self-represented litigant. I went through probably close to a hundred court appearances in two states 'cause the case got very complex and I always say justice and karma were finally served beautifully and during that time my ex kept appealing.
He appealed four times. And so I argued myself at the appellate court level 'cause I didn't feel like spending $15,000 to pay someone to speak for me for 20 minutes when I knew my case better than anyone. And not only did I win, but the case was notable enough to be published in the Connecticut Law Journal.
So it became case law for the state and every lawyer that I've spoken to have said that they have never heard of a pro se being published in a law journal. So I'm really proud of that. And then I also gave live testimony for something called Jennifer's Law, which passed and made Connecticut the third state in America.
To expand our legal definition of domestic violence to [00:07:00] include something called coercive control. So now all that invisible abuse, especially financial abuse, is taken very seriously and we look at a bigger picture rather than just physical abuse when we consider restraining orders and custody. And then my ex decided, he couldn't stand having a little bit of a break with certain things.
And so he sued Chris and I for $4 million in defamation in civil court, which terrified me and nobody else was worried about it. And within a few months we managed to get that dropped ourselves. And then in 2023, our first baby came out. I always say our first book, it's called Been There, got Out Toxic Relationship.
High conflict divorce and how to stay sane under insane circumstances. And then our current book we just finished, and that's coming out in January 26th and it's called When Your Ex Turns The Kids Against You, because that's something that we see kind of baked into legal abuse, which is, we will get into that later where people who
high [00:08:00] conflict exes not only use the legal system, but they weaponize children throughout the process. And so it's one of the most painful things that anyone could ever go through. So that's basically my story in the past few years.
Barb: Oh my gosh. That is crazy. Now, why were you getting a divorce initially?
Lisa: Why? Because I found out that he had been lying the entire time and was having all kinds of affairs, and I discovered the latest one and basically picked up a rock and found all kinds of creepy crawlies under it.
Barb: So was he an attorney?
Lisa: No.
Barb: No. So he hired an attorney as well.
Lisa: Well, he did. He actually went through three attorneys during that first year, and then he hired a criminal defense attorney even though it wasn't a criminal case and a variety of difficult people.
Okay.
Maggie: I've gotta start with like, what kept you going through these darkest moments? I mean, you've had a long couple of years for sure.
Lisa: Yeah, I mean, [00:09:00] what kept me going is my life, like my kids. my ex kind of walked out of our kids' lives and I thought, well, I can't make him be a parent. But I can make him be financially responsible for our children. He signed an agreement, he has an obligation, and that's something that I can do.
And so I kept doing it and it was really hard. And luckily I had amazing support. My partner Chris, who's the male, half of been there, got out. And my dad is gonna be 85 in a couple of weeks and he's an identical twin. And he and my uncle are patent attorneys. They have never litigated, they know nothing about family court.
But he speaks legalese, and so I've always been close to my dad and my dad helps me with understanding how to behave appropriately, how to tone myself down, because when people are going through what's called legal abuse, which is what I was living with and didn't have a name for many years, you wake up with three major [00:10:00] feelings every single day rage that this is happening because it's so unfair.
A sense of injustice of like the system that I'm turning to for relief is actually making things worse because they're not enforcing their own orders and despair and that, how long is this gonna take? Like here I am, this highly educated white woman and I'm being stuck in it. Imagine everybody who hasn't had the benefits that I have, that has a father that can help speak legally and help me prepare my emotions.
Like it is so unfair. And so every single day to live with that. Is really difficult. So tremendous support helped get me through it and thinking my kids really just have one main parent, I gotta keep it together and I gotta do something.
Maggie: So can you talk a little bit like for our listeners, how would you define kind of legal abuse? What, what is that it? I think it's a new term for a lot of people. I mean, you said you didn't even really know it until it was happening.
Lisa: yeah, I mean I, well, even when it was happening, I didn't know what it was [00:11:00] because everyone I talked to who was also dealing with divorce. They were done. And my friends who I'd see every so often at the y working out, they'd be like, you're still in court. And it was this ju like, what's wrong with you?
Or what's wrong with the judge? And what's wrong with your ex? And so, a few years ago, actually a little over four years ago. I discovered the term legal abuse buried in a 2015 judge's manual from Washington State, complete opposite end of the country. And I was like this is my life. And it listed a whole bunch of things and I'll get into that in a moment.
But when we talked to our clients about what legal abuse is in a nutshell, it's basically when your ex is using the legal system to wear you down and bleed, you drive financially, and there's two ways that they do it. So one is something we call vexatious or frivolous litigation where they're filing loads of motions against you.
And so you're constantly going to court and having to respond to things. And it's not just that affects you of like being in [00:12:00] court that time, that it takes away from your work, your parenting, your life, but living with this constant sense of dread of like. Oh my gosh. Like what's the next thing that's gonna happen and how am I gonna afford legal fees if I can't afford legal fees anymore?
Like, how am I gonna represent myself when I can't even keep it together and I'm crying and I'm cursing and, all of that. So that's the vexatious litigation. And other words for legal abuse are judicial, terrorism, paper abuse, 'cause of all of the paper wasted. Stalking through the court is my favorite.
And also litigation abuse. On the opposite end of frivolous or vexatious litigation is what I was dealing with. That's where someone does not comply with orders. And so the burden is on me to go back to court again and again to get enforcement. And that was what was so frustrating because people think like, you have these orders and you go in and the judge.
Does what it says they're gonna do, but they don't. A lot of times, and plus mine was through [00:13:00] COVID, they wanna give the benefit of the doubt. They wanna make sure everyone understands they give chance after chance because they don't want someone to appeal because that will affect the judge's legacy.
And reputation. So when they covered all the base, they make sure nobody can question anything. Then they make decisions. And that's also why judges try to keep you outta court. They're always pushing you to go to mediation or arbitration or parenting coordinators because they don't wanna make decisions that could possibly be appealed.
So that's legal.
Maggie: Wow. That is something else. It's amazing to me. 'cause I also have to think that would bleed the other person dry too. Like the person who's, putting up these motions and all these other things as well. So it's kind of like a lose situation but it's a power dynamic.
Lisa: That's right. They don't care. And we say they will spend more money than they have. They will burn through all of your savings. They will take money from everything because it's not about the money, it's about punishment. So that's the goal.
Barb: So how did you [00:14:00] end it? Like it seems that went on and on. What finally ended it?
Lisa: Well, there were different, like little tentacles happening in different states. So there was the educational support order. Two kids, he disputed, he didn't wanna pay for my second child, any of her education. He didn't wanna pay for anything anyway, so, parts got moved to different places and then, I think it was a matter of the tenacity of just things kept piling up. Like I kept winning in court the whole time, but then nothing would happen, and so I started learning to ask for what I call orders with teeth. So I'd say, okay, you've already found 'em in contempt five times. I still haven't gotten paid though, like our son has had to leave college because he didn't give his share.
For our son's freshman year and now he's a junior and I still haven't gotten paid back. And the orders are from 2018 and it's now like 2022. When are you gonna make him pay? So finally. in both states it just got to be a little bit too much. Like I said, judges had given opportunity [00:15:00] after opportunity.
The appeals had, he lost the appeal. And it was just like keeping track of all the different little threads and him losing in me saying, your Honor, like how many times do we have to have the same conversation? Oh, Ms. Johnson, we wanna get you paid. I'd be like, but that didn't work. That didn't work. That didn't work.
And so instead of thinking, I need to ask a judge to figure out, I figured it out. So I said, this is what I need you to do. You need to do this, you need to apply interest, you need to do this. And then if this happens, and what happened at the end, like the final order was the judge in Connecticut who was actually involved with Jennifer's law.
She was unfortunately the judge who had been involved with the case with Jennifer Doulos, who was murdered, and they've never recovered her body. because I was part of that testimony when I was before that judge, I thought, she's gonna hate me because I was involved with that.
Advocacy not true. She gave me the best orders ever. She went above and beyond with what I asked for in [00:16:00] terms of penalties, deadlines, consequences, and it was so satisfying. So when people think like, oh, you can't do anything, it's biased and corrupt. Like, absolutely not. Because if anyone had an excuse to dislike a person, it would've been that judge with me and she followed the law.
She was absolutely amazing.
Maggie: I'm so impressed. And I know you saved over then a million dollars by representing yourself. And I'm, I know that was not easy. And so what did you learn kind of the hard way about financial toll of a toxic divorce?
Lisa: Yeah. So one of the things, and this is something that we encourage our clients to think about, to avoid the financial decimation that, like I said, I'm gonna be paying back those loans forever is to understand that these kinds of cases are very different from. Normal divorce because these cases go on for years and they're very complex that you have to do something which we call take [00:17:00] strategic oversight of your case and basically run it like a business.
So one of the things that people in, let's say, coercively controlled relationships, one of the things that happens is the power dynamic is. For whatever reason, your partner has become an authority, whether it's with money, a lot of times with money, and a lot of other things. And so you come outta this relationship and then you're like, now I have a divorce attorney.
I'm gonna give him 15 to $25,000 plus retainer and they're gonna take care of it. They're gonna save my life. And I don't have to worry about anything. You have basically repeated that same unhealthy relationship dynamic by putting trust in a professional who works in the divorce industry. Not that they're corrupt, but like instead of that, here's an opportunity to say.
I gotta put on my big girl and big boy panties and realize that I am the boss of my own life. And that person is a resource. But just because they think, I've given them all this money and they've tried different cases, maybe even [00:18:00] like mine before. I know my ex better than anyone and the only people that are gonna be affected by all this are me and my kids.
And so I have to really understand what is going on. I have to read. Every proposal that is sent to the other side and make sure that I actually agree with it, rather than thinking my lawyer's gonna do it for me. I have to proofread every agreement before I sign it. I need to understand what is going on rather than thinking that other people are gonna take care of it for me.
Because then you're gonna end up in the same situation and you can't keep blaming people, so for me it was a real opportunity to grow up as a human being and be like, okay. It took a while still even post judgment to, to really start paying attention. But that's a big deal and that's a good way to to prevent legal abuse when your ex is running up your own bills by sending lots of correspondence to your attorney.
At some point you might think about saying, and this is what I did. I'm not gonna pay you to read every nonsensical correspondence. Could you just forward stuff to me? Unless you [00:19:00] see that it's really important, but I'm not wasting thousands of dollars. I don't want you to negotiate for me unless we absolutely have to, because that's where people burn through money fruitless negotiations.
'cause we know the other side is always moving goalposts because their goal isn't to settle. It's to keep you engaged. And that's something I think a lot of lawyers don't understand because they are logical. So everything has to be approached very differently with someone like that.
Barb: Wow. Yeah. So smart. when you hand over that kind of money, you think that's their job. They should be taking care of it, but like you said, they're a resource. It's really your own job to manage all of that. So, great advice there.
So I have a question for you.
for someone who's listening and who's scared to even open the legal bills or feel like they're drowning in court drama, what would you say to help them take back a little control?
Lisa: Yeah. So I mean, first of all, because these cases are really different, you need to have support [00:20:00] from the beginning, and I'm not just talking about the resources, like the financial people and the lawyer, but you need to have people that you can speak to about what you're going through, who really get it.
Chris and I only deal with high conflict cases and we have this weekly legal abuse support group. And in the group we do not bemoan the broken family court system because that's not helpful and that that makes trauma worse. But we basically strategize. And we get into bigger issues like, how are my kids gonna be okay?
And how do I co-parent with someone who often doesn't really care about the kids? Because these are the things that people are worried about. It's their whole lives. It's not just the divorce process, but it's that fear of like. How are we gonna be okay? Like with all the money that's flying out and all the anger and my kids are suffering, a lot of kids, develop eating disorders and have all kinds of psychological issues from the level of conflict that we deal with all the time.
And so getting that emotional support for yourself as early as possible [00:21:00] or as late as possible is so necessary because. If you can't keep it together, if you can't be as self-regulated as possible, your kids are gonna absorb the conflict. And there's all kinds of trauma with like them feeling responsible for your emotional health and everything else.
Like you have to keep your kids separate from what you're dealing with. So the best thing you can do. And it's, first of all, realize it's totally normal. Like you are not supposed to know what to do. People are like, oh, I should know. I'm a lawyer, I'm a therapist. I'm like, you're not supposed to know because probably you've never done this before.
it's still your first time with this kind of person. So just give yourself a little bit of grace and be like, it's okay to feel terrified. It's normal to feel terrified. Now let me get some help to deal with the terror and the bigger issues other than just the technical stuff you have to deal with because that's what's keeping you up at night, all of that fear.
So I would say. Get support and make sure that you stop doom [00:22:00] scrolling. So doom scrolling is the word that we use to read, especially stuff on social media that talks about how women in particular lose in family court because their ex is rich or that their kids are murdered and all these, like that stuff is generally, I'm not saying the stories themselves are not true.
But it's just like what bleeds is, what leads, and so that's the thing that gets views and that gets people really scared, and that's gonna affect your case and your life because you're gonna start developing this sense of learned helplessness and you're gonna be really difficult to work with. So we need to do the opposite, and we need to follow accounts about like things that make you happy and feel good because you need pleasure hormones to balance out that stress hormone of cortisol.
So stop doom scrolling. Get the right support. Even if someone recommends a group or a person that they're like, oh, they're the best. If you don't feel comfortable, don't connect with that person. This is another intimate [00:23:00] relationship, a support group, a therapist, whatever. You need to feel good and you need to start paying attention to your gut.
Because your brain's been like really out of whack and that can, people recover from trauma. I just interviewed someone the other week who said, P tt SD is one of the most common things to be able to recover from. So you can recover, but you don't wanna make things worse by associating with people and thinking, oh, well, everyone says they're the right fit.
And if it doesn't feel right, it's not the right fit. So get the right support as you're going through that's the best thing, and that'll help you make clear decisions as well.
Maggie: I love that you kind of say like, to stop the doom scrolling, and sometimes you can really end up kind of in this echo chamber of like, you try to escape to social media and then it's all this other bad noise, which is really just. Heightening, your nervous system and everything else, but also the fact that you have this support group of people going through high conflict divorce because we've talked to other divorce groups, which are super great and super supportive, but sometimes when your situation is more niche, it's harder to get those people to [00:24:00] understand.
'cause it's like, oh, we just went to court and we did the thing and then we left. And it's like, yeah, that would be really nice. Like you're almost glamorizing it. But ours is not like that. And so you need those people who can relate, who understand, like, it's not just you're not doing well or you don't have a good attorney, or you're not working hard enough.
Like it's a lot more complex. And so to have that community around you who understands that, who gets that, I think is really great as well. And so getting into those like real niche communities of people who can really relate, I think is so essential as well. So I love that you have that for your clients.
Lisa: Yeah, and also one of the things when you're in the wrong group, and I was in the wrong group at first 'cause I was in a regular divorce group. You feel even more isolated because when you talk about the stuff that's happening, people are like, oh, well me and my ex are having holidays together.
And it's like, that is never gonna happen for any of our clients ever. So, you need to be around people that really get it. And one thing with our legal abuse support group is. I always say we do a very unusual thing in [00:25:00] the domestic violence space, and that's that we combine our male and female clients together because we firmly believe that abuse is a human issue, not a gender issue.
And someone that I just interviewed yesterday who talks about community, she said The most important thing for a good community is empathy. And empathy is what we want our clients to feel, and they do. And I think it's actually amazing. For women in particular to hear men talking about their experiences and realizing that he is just as terrified of his ex.
That men are physically assaulted, threatened, not as much with the financial stuff, but still like the horror and the fear of what the kids are going through is there for everybody when it's the more protective, healthy parent. And so, having that empathy makes us all. Stronger and I just love our group.
I always tell them I don't mind working on the weekends.
Barb: Wow. And so you and your partner Chris, turned pain into purpose with [00:26:00] been there, got out so. What are some practical tools you share that help people stay grounded and keep their finances protected?
Lisa: Okay. So, staying grounded. So one of the things we do is we love interviewing professionals because we're not mental health professionals. I've learned grounding tech. Techniques from other professionals who know about neuroscience and trauma. And so that's the one thing we do is we do these interviews.
We have a podcast and a YouTube channel, so our clients can, and our community, it's all free. They can get access to all of that knowledge. And in our books, we don't just talk about our own stories. Like this book that's coming out in January when your ex turns the kids against you, I counted, there's 52 experts.
That I've noted in the book. So it's not just all about me, it's about these are people who work in the trenches and really understand it far better than I do, and I'm just organizing it together and then using our client experience as well. So I [00:27:00] think knowing what it's like, the reality of high conflict divorce posts, separation abuse from professionals is grounding because.
What scares us is ignorance, and I usually have a little button that I don't know where it is in my messy desk, but from my teaching high school days, it says, if you think education is expensive, try ignorance. Ignorance is terrifying. And that's one of the ways that we help calm our clients down, I always say, is we don't just say calm down because that has the opposite effect.
We keep you focused and organized on the things that the courts care about. So that, I guess that's a way to kind of ground you is when you understand what matters and what doesn't then there's no mystery. It's not like, oh, what if the judge, or I hope this happens. It's like, it's not about hope and prayer.
It's about like understanding what the laws are, what the factors are, and creating a very persuasive, compelling case around those factors. So that's, I think that's probably the best way to ground people is to. [00:28:00] Give them the reality. Sometimes we call it the harsh New York reality check. 'cause Chris and I are both New Yorkers and we'll be like, we're not gonna tell you what you wanna hear, but it's better that you hear it from us than in court.
Like going in there and making like a terrible argument, having it fall flat, wasting everyone's time, loads of money, and then not understanding why you lost. So to go in already knowing like, I don't need to be scared. I already know this is gonna happen. And to feel confident that's gonna make a big difference.
And I can speak from personal experience 'cause it's happened many times where I was like, I know I'm gonna do well and I do well.
Maggie: I love how much you talk about the education and you've, even all these documents from your lawyer, you made sure you read, everything along the way you really made sure you read and, 'cause we hear from so many women like, oh, I just got the tax documents and I just signed them, or I got the prenup and I just signed it.
I never read it. I didn't understand it, and I love how you took that time throughout and really understood these things because they are essential. They're not always exciting. They are in [00:29:00] jargon, but it's so essential to the process and that way you feel that confidence of understanding everything.
So you get that security and I think that's just really admirable. 'cause a lot of people don't take that step back and really read these documents 'cause they're not fun. I mean, legal documents are not cute, but it's gotta be done.
Lisa: It does. your life is so seriously impacted. We say like your parenting plan is hugely important and a lot of lawyers, no offense to lawyers, but you're messy. You're not writers, you're not persnickety. My partner, Chris, is an expert in writing airtight parallel parenting plans, and we're actually coming out with our next course on that.
And I don't think I mentioned in, in the whole bio that we have this online educational program. It's called From Fear to Fierce in Family Court. And one of the things that, that we find makes the most powerful case is something we call strategic communication, which is your correspondence with your ex in writing only.
That's everything. That's the best exhibit you [00:30:00] can give to the court that turns into what we call targeted documentation. So we have a course called How to Communicate with Your Ex without Destroying Your Case or Losing your Mind. And there's so many ways to build powerful leverage in your communication, but all of it is about saving time and energy and money and your family, like this is your family.
You need to pay attention, you need to take this really seriously. And. Think about it. When your kids see you, obviously trying to heal at the same time, but getting support, you're their role model. If they, if you're okay, they're gonna be okay. And if you're not okay, they're gonna be really messed up.
So you gotta get yourself, okay, get that support to help you understand what you're reading to help encourage you. Let's look at it together like, we can do this. It's less scary when you actually look at it. We've had clients who didn't even realize that they had gotten orders in their favor because they were too scared to read them like it was a year later, and I'm [00:31:00] reading something with a client going, wait a second, did you know that you actually won full medical decision making for this child?
And she was like, I, oh my God.
Maggie: It could be good news in there.
Lisa: Yeah, there's like a year of this where she's like frustrated and angry and saying, no one's listening to me. And I just said, let me take a look at those orders, actually. And then there it was, it changed her entire personality. I actually thought she was a little bit mentally ill because of just the cycling and cycling, and then she became like completely such a better person after that.
Maggie: And how did you meet Chris? Did he also go through a similar high conflict divorce?
Lisa: Yeah, he did. His was three years and $300,000, but we actually met on match.com. It was my first online dating experience. We didn't even know we had this in common at all. We just started seeing each other and then it was like, huh. And then Chris found this article like a few months after we had been seeing each other
on narcissism. I didn't know what narcissism meant. I thought it was like someone who's [00:32:00] full of themselves when we met, he didn't even say anything about his ex. He made it sound like it was normal between them. I was still early in my process of divorce, we were betting whose is gonna take the longest?
And then he showed me the article and I said, oh my that's my situation. But on the opposite end of the spectrum, it was that light bulb moment of like, whoa. And then later at some point we found Bill Eddie's book splitting, which blew up our world. And we're like, oh, we have to deal with it differently and here's why.
And yeah, but we actually met on Match and now we just celebrated our 10 year anniversary together.
Barb: Wow. It was like
meant to be.
Lisa: yeah,
Yeah. It's crazy.
Barb: So how can someone prepare financially if they think their relationship might be headed toward a high conflict split?
Lisa: Okay. First of all, I don't think anyone thinks, unless they already know what's going on, like I said, I didn't even know I was gonna get a divorce, but I think the big thing is you need to have access to finances. 99% of abusive [00:33:00] relationships have financial abuse where somebody doesn't know what's going on.
In my own relationship, my ex had all kinds of real estate. He was having stuff sent to his sister's address, like telling me that these were these things. But even though he had all these apartments that we needed to take our own money and invest it back into his real estate, and I was like, this doesn't make sense to me.
Oh, here's the tax return. Just sign it. I did not pay attention. And I think that is something that we all need to do now. Wherever we are, we need to start paying attention to our finances. I kept thinking, why? Why is this like a dual income household and we never have any money? I just wasn't paying attention.
And then, oh my gosh, during the discovery process, the waste, like I'm frugal and I also hate paying late fees. Like I pay my credit card bills in full on time. My ex did not. So much money was being wasted. I just had no idea. No idea. And so really saying, I need to see what's going on.
Barb: I just [00:34:00] got off the phone with someone yesterday who exact that exact situation, like she money was going to assist her accounts that were not in her name. He wouldn't show her any statements was taking money out of her IRA to pay some bills. unfortunately.
Just a mess. And she stayed at home with the children and gave him full responsibility until she realized, something's going on here. And I said, where do you think the money's going? She's like, I don't know. I don't know where the money's going. So, yeah, she's at the beginning stages of what kind of you went through.
So, you didn't know you were even getting divorced and then you went through this whole process. So you went through legal chaos to find peace on the other side, but what do you suggest women do when they're going down this road?
Lisa: Okay, so one of the things that we see all the time that my ex did as well is they'll use that whole dynamic in the relationship of like, you know [00:35:00] me, you trust me, like we're good people. We don't need attorneys. Here's what you're going to get if you went to court. Let's avoid all of that so people don't know their rights.
You need to talk to neutral professionals and realize that your ex is not your ally. Your partner is not your ally. We always say ex like immediately but people still think well but he's saying this and so this is what's going on. I'm like, but that's not true. So it's very hard for people to.
Separate that this person is doing what's best for themself. They're not doing what's fair for the both of you. That's really important. You need to get a neutral person. If you do collaborative work, divorce, that's wonderful. You still need to know your rights before you get into anything. So that's my number one thing.
You gotta know your rights
Maggie: yeah, definitely a hundred percent. And so Lisa, there is a question we like to ask everybody on our show, and you've gone from like this legal chaos to helping [00:36:00] others find peace and strength. So really now what does financial freedom mean to you, especially after everything that you've been through?
Lisa: Well, okay, so there's a quote that I'm thinking of, and it kind of ties back to what we were just talking about, and that's by this guy that I've interviewed, he's a bodyguard. His name is Steven Dana, and he also runs a nonprofit called, protection from abuse. And he says An abuser's greatest tool is fear.
And my ex always made it sound like if we separated that I wouldn't be able to function, especially financially. He was like, I'm the one who makes all the money. had a career, I had my master's in education. I was a teacher. I started all kinds of my own businesses. But he always kind of lorded it over me of like.
You're never gonna make as much money as me. And look, we can barely afford this, even though, like I said, that didn't make sense. And so the craziest thing was I was so scared I finally jumped off the high dive and into the divorce process. And after I'm like, I have more money [00:37:00] I've ever had. Like how do I have more money now without the second income?
And I think it's because I wasn't like, who knows where all the money was going? Now I know where my money is. I can splurge if I want to. I can save on what I want to. Like I don't have to deal with someone who's stealing from me and our family anymore. Like I know what's going on and I love it. I love that I can do whatever I want with my money.
If I wanna hire someone to mow the lawn, which he never wanted, but he'd buy himself his new technology all the time, like I'll do it. That's up to me. So I love having the choices of to spend it on whatever I want.
Maggie: I love that. And I mean, I can just feel your empowerment, that you feel like you have now, which you do, that's awesome to see and to come out the other side stronger and now that you can help all these other people. And so what's the best way for people to stay connected to you, Lisa?
Reach out, use your community. What's the best way to do that?
Lisa: so our website is called Been There, got Out. It's Been There. Got out.com. Super [00:38:00] easy. We're been there, got out everywhere. Instagram is my home base. That's where I always start, as Maggie, with all of the interviews that turn into YouTube and podcasts. But if you just write to us like Lisa or Chris at, been There, got out.com, our book is called, been There, got Out, just Google, been There, got Out.
It's just the two of us. So we always answer. you can DM me on Instagram or however, but you'll find us. We always answer.
Maggie: Awesome. Well, thank you for coming on today. We really appreciate it. And I hope everyone, reaches out to Lisa and uses her as a great resource. So until then, we'll talk to everyone soon.
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