Women & Money: The Shit We Don't Talk About!

The Other Side of ‘I Do’: Rebuilding Money and Mindset After Divorce with Jill Kaufman

• Barbara Provost & Maggie Nielsen • Episode 121

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Divorce is hard enough. Don’t let money make it harder.

Our guest today, Jill Kaufman, knows firsthand how overwhelming divorce can be emotionally and financially. Jill is a Divorce Coach, Therapist, Mediator & Co-parenting Expert. After going through her own difficult divorce, she made it her life’s mission to help others not have it so tough. Her book, online course, and her transformational coaching program help parents navigate the overwhelming process of divorce both emotionally and practically with less stress, more confidence and a greater sense of peace. 

In this episode, Jill shares her own story of going through a high-conflict divorce and the shocking moment she discovered she had no credit in her own name after 20 years of marriage. She breaks down the common financial mistakes women make during divorce, and how to avoid them.

Jill’s insight is equal parts supportive and empowering helping women see their strength, take back control, and move forward with confidence. And don’t miss our next Money Talks session on 12/11: Protecting Your Independence Through Transition. Click here to register for FREE and bring your questions! 

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Maggie: [00:00:00] Did I tell you this already? That I was at a super Bowl party, when we had the Super Bowl and Kendrick, all good stuff, and I was talking to one of my girlfriends from my walk group, and she's a nurse. She owns her own home. She's single. She told me she doesn't have a credit card.

She's never had a credit card to her name. She's like 33.

Barb: How did she get through life without a credit card?

Maggie: Her parents told her to never take on more debt than you have. She's like, I got a house still. I was like, in awe. 

Barb: How did she get credit for a house if she never had a credit card?

Maggie: don't know. I didn't go into it again, we were at a Super Bowl party, but I was like, you should probably get one just to build credit to have backup, blah, blah, blah.

She's like, I keep meaning to, so I sent her, not to plug, but I sent her my Capital One, thing to get like my $150. And right then and there she signed up for a credit card. During our Super Bowl party, she's like, I feel so relieved. I've always wanted to get that done. Like thanks for just literally holding her hand while she did it, like it's on an app.

It was so easy. And I was like, [00:01:00] I got 150 bucks. Like we're cruising.

Barb: Wow, that's fantastic.

Maggie: I was just so surprised. I was like, who doesn't have a credit card these days? Especially when you're a homeowner, have a full-time job, earns good money, all this stuff. So it was pretty funny and I think about that a lot.

And so then like a week and a half later, she's like, I got my credit card in the mail. And I was like, all right. Like, use it wisely, 

Barb: Did she know how to use it?

Maggie: I think so, yeah. But everyone there was like shook, 'cause everyone else is like playing their point game or. Everything else, and everyone's like, well use my link for my bonus, I just thought it was amazing that this woman's like 33, had never had a credit card. But then we hear these different stories of women who have always just been married and they're not even the authorized user on their husband's credit card, but they're just used like the credit card with his name on it, so they're not building a credit score.

And I'm just always surprised as well.

Barb: Well, and so are they. They don't even realize it. They don't realize that they're not building a credit score or credit history for themselves because [00:02:00] Sure, they're using a credit card, but it's not under their name, although their name is on it. It's under their husband's name.

Maggie: Which I just wanna be clear for our listeners that there's a difference of being an authorized user and not. And if you're not an authorized user, but you're still using that card, that's not helping your credit score. But if you are an authorized user, that can affect your credit score. But it can't affect it badly if the main person's not paying the bill.

Barb: So you wanna be careful. You want your own credit card.

Maggie: Yeah, you want your own credit card in your own name. that's just like a Jill who we're gonna have a conversation with was getting divorced and was trying to get a credit card and realized she had no credit to her name.

Barb: And she was married for 20 years.

Maggie: It's crazy, but she was able to still make it happen 'cause there are a ton of options to get a credit card.

Barb: Yeah, but that was just store credit cards, so not really the ones that. You can use lots of different places like a Visa, MasterCard or something like that.

Maggie: Which aren't usually, when you first get your credit, it's like 500, $2,000 they give you. They're not giving you the big books, it's interesting. And [00:03:00] so, I'm excited to dive into this story today with Jill and how, through her divorce she got a credit card and really went and built and helped now more women with their divorce and having a successful divorce.

But I just thought that was interesting,

Barb: Yeah because she had a very tumultuous divorce. Now she's a divorce coach.

Maggie: tumultuous.

Barb: I know.

She had a tumultuous divorce and now she's helping women as a divorce coach and I think it's fantastic and we've learned a few tips from her. So let's dial in.

Maggie: Let's dive in.

Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit [00:04:00] we don't talk about.

Maggie: Jill, welcome to the podcast. We are thrilled to have you on today. Before we dive into this great conversation, could you share with our audience a bit about who you are and what you do?

Jill: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. So I am a licensed therapist. I'm a divorce coach. Certified mediator and a parent educator. And I've been working with people going through divorce for many years. I went through my own very high conflict divorce in 2012. Learned a lot and then I really focused my practice on working with people going through divorce.

Maggie: Awesome. Yeah, we hear that a lot about how people go through divorce and really wanna help other women kind of go through that process and let's kind of take us back. I know you had a financial background, you were a therapist and you couldn't get a credit card during your divorce, so let's kind of like dive into that.

What did that moment teach you?

Jill: It was crazy. Yeah. When I was right outta college [00:05:00] for seven years I was in finance. And then I decided to go back and get my master's in social work to become a therapist. But I thought I had a handle on my financial. Picture and my ex was a financial advisor, so he really did handle a lot of the finances during our marriage.

'cause I was just, doing a lot with the kids. But as we were going through divorce, I had to pay an attorney and figure out how to get money and I didn't really want him knowing everything I was doing so. I went to the bank to try to get a credit card and I realized, they told me that, oh, you don't have any credit, because all of the things that you had for 20 years was on my husband's name.

So he had the credit and I couldn't get a credit card which really it is so devastating emotionally when you're going through this. You're an adult, you're raising kids and you can't get a credit card. It was ridiculous. So I ended up finding a way to get a credit card. There are ways you can do a secured credit card, you can get credit started stores, credit cards

so there are ways [00:06:00] that you can build it up, but you don't wanna wait until you really need it to do that. So it was crazy.

Maggie: Well, and usually those original credit cards are like two grand. They give you just a little bit just to make sure, you'll pay it back and build that trust. Yeah. 

Barb: And we see that happen a lot as women don't realize that they're not building their own credit. 'cause they have a credit card, but they don't realize it's under their husband's name. So yeah, 20 years you're using credit cards thinking, oh, I have credit. I'm glad that you pointed that out, that you weren't, because it wasn't under your name.

So take this seriously that women out there, you should all make sure you have your own credit card in your own name, and that you can check and look at your own credit. So that's really important to know. Jill, I'm glad that you pointed that out. But we know divorce is already, it's an emotional, chaotic time.

I know I went through it myself and the financial piece, if you're not familiar with finances at all, [00:07:00] can be very much like a blindside. So what are some of the biggest money shocks you think women need to be prepared for?

Jill: So I think a lot of people. Don't know what they spend every month. And so you charge it on your credit card and if you're lucky, you can pay your credit card off, right. And you don't really keep track of what you're spending your money on. And I think that's a really important piece to know what you're spending so that you know what you need when you're going through divorce.

And you can also plan what your post-divorce life, you can't plan a post-divorce life unless you know what you need in terms of finances. So I think the first thing that people need to start with is really think deeply about what they want their post-divorce life to look like, and where do they wanna live?

Do they want to own or rent? Do they want. To be able to have, [00:08:00] extra money so that they're not stressed by paying a mortgage or a rent. Do they wanna travel. There's so many things that you have to think about when you are thinking about your finances that have nothing to do with finance, that have to do with just what is going to make you happy post-divorce, and that will help you back into the financial piece of that.

Maggie: Do you think it's hard for people to kind of envision what that life is gonna be like when they're in this kind of, I almost wanna describe it as a tornado, it's like, of course I wanna go on vacation, I wanna run away from this. But like I wouldn't even know where to start to grasp of like what I want that to look like

'cause I feel like I'm in bubble of chaos.

Jill: I mean, that's the hardest thing that I have to try to get people to do when I work with them because they're so in the crisis of the day, they're working on what's happening today. And I was like that too. I mean it, you can't help it because there's so many things going on that are stressful and really overwhelming, but.

[00:09:00] The best way to handle your divorce is not to get caught up in all those crises. The best way is to have us take a step back and have perspective of you're not gonna be going through your divorce forever, and you want to be prepared for your post-divorce life. So you need to start thinking about that now today.

And once you have that perspective, it makes it easier to handle all the crises that come up.

Maggie: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 'Cause I know for, figuring out the finances, you can kind of go back to old data like your credit cards and see what you spent. But sometimes looking forward can be a little harder. When you are kind of in that whirlwind. So I know you help make clear or you help people kind of make these clear, calm decisions during.

The messiest times of their lives. 

What's one thing that you wish every divorced woman knew before signing anything? 

Jill: Well, first of all, don't sign anything until you have an attorney. Check it, a divorce [00:10:00] coach, check it. You have to really think through. how many people sign things and don't even read them right? You trust that what you think is in there.

And you cannot do that with a divorce agreement because that thing, once you sign it, is a legal document even before you submit it to the court. 

And I've worked with people who've signed things in mediation and then have completely been screwed over, and then they try to go back to court and the court's like, too bad, and they've spent a year and. A lot of money trying to fight it, and it usually doesn't work. So you wanna read through that thing bit by bit and line by line and make sure that you understand everything that's in there before you sign it. I mean, everything related to, there's so many details that people don't even think about.

Like, what happens to retirement accounts? What happens if the retirement accounts are going to be split [00:11:00] and it's not done within six months? Is there any negative to that? I mean, there's so many little things like that you really want somebody who's experienced with this to help you go over 'cause you can't do that yourself.

Barb: Yeah. What we hear time and time again is that because they wanna be done right, they wanna be done with this divorce and move on. Too often they rush through it. And they do sign documents that in hindsight, they wish they hadn't done. So can you speak to that a little bit?

Jill: I mean, first of all, if you're in mediation, you should never sign anything in your mediation session. You should bring it back. Think about it. Bring it to your attorney when you're calm. Certain mediators really wanna get this done. They wanna get a completed agreement.

So they may put pressure that wasn't my experience. And usually when I work with people i'm very clear on don't sign anything in mediation, but I think there are certain [00:12:00] situations where they do put pressure on people to sign things, and there's no way you can look through that whole agreement when you're sitting there in front of other people.

You can take little bits of it at a time, but you can't look through it all. So why are we. Letting people pressure us to sign something we have to look underneath that. And that's something, an insecurity that we think, oh, we're supposed to understand everything and we're supposed to seem like we are in control of the situation.

When they pressure us to sign it. We feel like we're gonna look stupid if we don't sign it. Maybe I'm not sure what's going through people's minds, but you look smart if you don't sign something, if you say, I need some time to think about it and I need some time to go over this when I'm calm and I'm on my own.

Maggie: So kind of like with your position as a coach and working with this process, I also feel like people might read it and we've all read something and we are at the end and we're like not [00:13:00] quite sure what that means. I also am being stingy on my money and don't wanna pay the attorney for every 15 minutes while I ask questions that I am blaming myself that I should know.

And so then it's kind of this roundabout of like, I did read it technically, but I don't get it and I don't really wanna pay my attorney anymore. Are you someone who can help in this situation or do you recommend just spend the money with the attorney? It's worth it or how do you kind of go about facing that?

Because it's kind of like a rock and a hard place and you can't just check GPT at all.

Jill: Right, exactly. Well it is kind of a combination of what you're talking about, so I can look over everything and say, okay, this looks good, but oh, this, I'm not sure. You need to go to your attorney about. And that is so much better than just looking at the whole agreement and saying, well, I understand most of it, but I'm not really sure.

I mean, if you can get someone like me who really has a lot of experience in looking at these [00:14:00] agreements to say, oh, you don't have to worry about that. You need to change that. That's good. But this piece is really, I'm not sure about, you need to go to your attorney. That'll save you, a thousand or more dollars right there, because two or three hours with an attorney is gonna be, over a thousand dollars.

So yeah, definitely having someone who has the experience who can look it over and say what you need to go to the attorney about and what you don't will really help. 

Barb: Jill, so when it comes to co-parenting, what's the common mistake you see people make that end up costing them emotionally and financially?

Jill: So the biggest mistake I see is that they allow the other parent to trigger them. In so many ways. So we, you're going from a marriage relationship to a co-parenting relationship, and that's a huge shift. As a married couple. You have to [00:15:00] come up with a agree, compromises and care about what each other thinks and talk through things, and you really have to.

Care about that relationship and work hard on it. As a co-parent, it's more like a colleague or a coworker. You can, you don't have to agree on everything. You don't have to convince the other person what's right or what's wrong, or you don't have to talk through things. You just really have to be respectful and you have to make sure that you are communicating.

Appropriately for things that you need to communicate, which is mostly about the children. And so when you say something to your soon to be ex like Bobby really wants to do some sport like baseball. Okay? Bobby's told me he really wants to do baseball. This fall and it's gonna be, $250.

I think we really should spend it. And your soon to be ex says, you know what? I don't think he would be a really good ball [00:16:00] player. I don't think that's the right thing for him. I think we should look at different things. Then you might start getting into an argument. Right. You're, but he told me that he wants it.

It's really important. We have to support him. That's gonna be an emotional conversation. You don't have to do that. You can say, look, why don't you talk to him and, you let me know what. You wanna do because you really wanna get out of the middle of the relationship between the children.

And the other parent. And you want to, do what's best for your child, but you can't control the other person. So you've got to have them come to you with how they feel and you know what they're willing to do. And it's not something that you should spend a lot of time having an emotional conversation.

If you do wanna have some kind of communication, you can always send them an email and you can write. It in a way where, this is what they've told me. I'm willing to pay, $200 if you're willing to pay 50, or something if you really [00:17:00] wanna do that. Or you could say, you know what we really need to work this out.

Maybe we could have a conversation with. Him together, so there's a lot of things that you can do, but you don't need to have an emotional conversation with the person. So that's the biggest mistake is having emotional conversations when you shouldn't have any emotional conversations are never gonna end well as co-parents, you really wanna be calm, respectful, and if you can't be, just say, you know what, let's talk about this another time I have to run.

Let's plan a time. We can talk about it.

Maggie: Do you recommend like a lot of the communication be, I hear this sometimes more like text or email just because it's written and more traceable. Trackable proof of conversation,

Jill: So this is another mistake people make. They think everything's going to court, right? They think if somebody says something not nice in an email, they're gonna find out what is gonna happen when they're, the judge reprimands them. Most [00:18:00] people are not going to court. If you're in a situation where you are going to court, yes, you should track everything, you should keep everything.

There are parenting apps. Co-parenting apps that you can use to do that. But yes, if it's extreme, you probably wanna keep it. But nobody's going to remove custody because they were obnoxious in an email to you. Texts I think are difficult because it's hard not to respond right away.

So I really recommend people. If it is a high conflict situation to communicate with email, because then you can think through it. You can look at over. You don't have to read their email right away. So it's much more manageable than text or talking to someone. But you know, if you can get to a good point, and I help people get to a better point when they're communicating because initially when I'm working with people, they are emotional, they're reactive, and they really are reacting to everything.

And, we work [00:19:00] on what you need to react to, what you don't need to react to, and also how to respond in a way that's going to be lowering the conflict. Because a lot of times they'll say things or respond and it'll increase the conflict. They won't even realize it. They think that they're being respectful, but really there's a tone or there's something in there that's not respectful.

Barb: it takes a lot of discipline to dial back the emotion when you're trying to communicate.

Jill: Oh yeah. I mean, you're in an emotional situation, right? You're divorcing someone for a reason. There's anger, there's grief, there's sadness. Every emotion you can imagine. And so it's understandable that people are emotional, but it's not gonna get you where you wanna go if you have these emotional conversations and if you're reactive.

So it's about being strategic while you're going through the process.

Maggie: Now, just a personal curiosity, a little sidetrack here. Since you work with a lot of families and [00:20:00] co-parenting, how often do you see it where they keep the house, where they have the kids live in it and the parents come in and out of that house?

Jill: So that's called nesting? 

Maggie: I guess so it always seemed like it would be hard, like you need to have a real good relationship with each co-parent to have that.

And so I was wondering like, is that common these days? Is it becoming more common?

Jill: So I think it's more commonly known these days, but you really can't do that for a permanent solution it's usually a temporary solution under a year. But you know, if you can do it, if you can get along, that's great. I knew I had one couple where one party moved up to the attic and the other one stayed in the house and they had separate areas and they were able to do that.

But when you get new partners it can get really complicated. So I don't think it really is a long-term solution.

Maggie: It's fair. I was just curious as I, you hear about it and you're like, ah, I wonder how that works actually, like day to day.

Barb: There are some women who kinda go quiet. They lose their voice in divorce. So what's something you would say [00:21:00] to women so that they don't get small and lose their voice during this very difficult time.

Jill: Well, so divorce is one of the toughest things anybody can go through, and every day that you're waking up and you're dealing with, it is a day to realize how strong you are because you've gotten through it, and you're continuing to get through it. So recognizing that you are strong to be able to go through this process.

A lot of people won't get divorced because they just are not strong enough. Like it's really hard. And so seeing your strength is one way to build on building your voice, right? And as you go through this and as you come out of it and you see all that you've done, you really need to. I mean, learn from what you've experienced.

And one of those things to learn is to have a voice, right? I think a lot of people in their marriages, in their relationships maybe don't have [00:22:00] as much of a voice as they really should, and if that's something that's. Tough for you. Get help, go to therapy, work on your self-esteem. Brene Brown is awesome.

You know her she's got books and TED talks that help you. There's lots of information out there that you can use to work on your self-esteem, but therapy's always a good choice.

Maggie: And so I know you've also helped a lot of people kind of turn this heartbreak into strength. So what's just a small thing women could do today if they kind of feel lost in the whole process.

Jill: So you will be lost if you don't get help. I mean, what I did was I hired an attorney. And my ex hired his attorney and immediately we were adversaries and I was not in control of the process. So you don't wanna do that. You really wanna have control when you're going through this and you wanna have professionals around you who can help you get that control.

So, for example, as a divorce [00:23:00] coach, I help people. Tell their attorney what is okay and what's not okay. Like I want to, I don't wanna file with the court. I can't tell you how many people come to me and say, my attorney told me I have to file with the court and I'm gonna serve him next week.

And I was like, okay, that's not the best way because immediately somebody gets served and that is a fight, that is really upsetting when you serve someone. And I don't think attorneys even think, not all attorneys, there are attorneys out there who are really aware of this and don't do this, but a lot of attorneys.

Don't even realize the impact of being served. An example of something that you can say, well, you know what, I don't want him to be served until I talk to him or I don't wanna file with the court. I wanna do it another way. So there's lots of ways that you can go through this, where you are the one who has.

The power and you don't, I mean they work for you. Attorneys work for you. A lot of [00:24:00] people are scared, well, I don't think my attorney will go along with that. Well, too bad you can get another attorney. Like you have to be the one in control. The attorney doesn't know you your soon to be ex or your children as well as you do.

So I really encourage people to get support if they need help with them.

Maggie: I don't think people always know that you can do it without filing at the court or getting them served. I think about like watching movies and they're always just getting served or you have to file at the court. I think so many people think that's like. How you get divorced. So like what are kind of the other ways to do it?

Jill: So it depends on your state. There are certain states that have a waiting period, but most don't. For example, North Carolina I think has a year waiting period. So you do have to file to get that year waiting period started, but in most states, I think you have to be living separately for a year before they will legally divorce you

in certain states but if you don't have that, most states have one, two, or three month. Waiting periods, [00:25:00] which is nothing because it's gonna take you that long to negotiate your divorce so you don't have to file with the court when you're starting, you can go to mediation is one way, which I highly recommend.

You can do it yourself. Sit down together at a table and go over it yourself. You can do it with a mediator, which is a neutral third party. A lot of times when you have attorneys, they wanna be in the mediation, which I don't recommend because. It makes things more complicated and more adversarial.

So just you two and a mediator can sit and talk through a lot of things and get pretty far before you even file. The idea is that if there is a short waiting period, you get your agreement, you both sign it, and then you file an uncontested divorce. That uncontested divorce will take a month or two to go through the court system.

And the judge usually just rubber stance that if it's. Reasonably fair and then you're legally divorced, so you never have to file until you have an actually signed [00:26:00] agreement.

Maggie: So you do have to file it sometime, but you just don't have to do it right away and you file for an uncontested divorce.

Jill: Yeah, it's a totally different circumstance if it's uncontested versus contested because a contested regular divorce, when you file with the court is going to have a timeline and they're gonna tell you what to do and what steps, and you don't need that. That's just a lot of waste of time and money if you're gonna be able to get to an agreement without the court.

Barb: Cool. So, we're contemplating all of this 'cause I've never heard of that before either. So all good news good information to have. So you've been through it, I've been through it. But now you're helping others thrive on the other side and we ask everyone this one last question. So Jill, what's your personal definition of financial freedom?

Jill: My personal definition is being able to do what you love and not being stressed [00:27:00] about money. That to me is financial freedom what you love is different to everybody, right? You have to know what that is, and so many people don't even think about that, but it's important to know what makes you happy and what you love to do.

Well, I actually love my work, which I know that's not really what you're supposed to say, but I wake up on Monday mornings and I'm kind of excited for the week, we moved out to Colorado to ski and I had never. Well, it was 'cause my husband actually, lived out here. So I moved out part of the year here and I never skied out west before I started a few years ago.

Started dating my husband, and skiing out here and actually summers out here are the most beautiful thing. And so being in nature and skiing, snowshoeing, hiking, that is really what fills me up and makes me happy. And I try to do it every day. So it's pretty cool.

Maggie: I love that gets you out, gets you fit, gets some fresh [00:28:00] air, all the good things. Well, this has been a great conversation and so Jill, how can people, connect with you, work with you, reach out, do all those good things?

Jill: My website is divorce coach jill.com. I have email is info@divorcecoachjill.com. That's pretty easy. I also have a free Facebook group for people going through separation and divorce, and it's called Separation and Divorce Support Community. So they can work with me there.

Maggie: Awesome. Well, we appreciate you coming on and sharing your expertise today. I think Barb and I even learned a couple things, which is always fun. And so yeah, we appreciate it. We encourage you guys to reach out to Jill. Stay connected. And until next time, be financially fearless. 

Outro: You've been listening to Women Money, the shit we don't talk about. Now it's time to take what you've learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head to [00:29:00] PurseStrings. co and sign up today. Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until next time, be financially fearless. 



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Barbara Provost

Host
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Maggie Nielsen

Host