Giving Caregivers Their Life Back with Tia Sauceda

Caregiving is not just emotional. It’s physical, financial, and constant.

This week, we’re joined by Tia Sauceda, the Executive Director of the National Adult Day Services Association (NADSA) and a nationally recognized expert in Adult Day Services, dementia care, and person-centered care. 

Tia shares what most families don’t realize until they’re already in it. Caregiving is 24 7, 365, and without support, burnout is inevitable.

We discuss what adult day services actually are, why they’re often the “best kept secret,” and how they give both the caregiver and the person receiving care something equally important. Space, purpose, and relief.

Tia reminds us that caregiving is not just about showing up. It’s about sustaining yourself while you do it. 

If you’re navigating caregiving right now, or you know you will be, take the next step and join next week’s Money Talks “The Hidden Costs of Caregiving: Build a Plan to Support your Loved Ones”. Click here to register for FREE and bring your questions!  

Follow & connect with Tia Sauceda:

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Want to take this conversation one step further? Join us for our next Money Talks, a free 30 minute live session where we’ll dig into a question we hear all the time from women business owners: Budgeting for Businesses to Offer Benefits. Click here to register for FREE and bring your questions! 

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Transcript

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Caregiving is 24/7, 365. And so while I obviously feel like adult day is a huge piece of that because that can take away 40 to 50 hours a week that you wouldn't have to be doing that. Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit we don't talk about. This podcast is a new one Today. We have Tia, who is the executive Director of the National Adult Day Service Association and a nationally recognized expert in Adult Day Services, dementia care, and person centered care. And since we know, and we always talk about this caregiving pandemic coming our way, we're excited to dive into this conversation about, adult day services and the heck those are and how they can help us out. So before we dive in, Tia, could you introduce a little bit about who you are and what you do? Sure, I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me. My name's Tia Sauceda, and as you said, I'm the executive director of NADSA. We just call it NADSA, National Adult Day Services Association. But I come to this role just in the last few months. Prior to that I have operated adult day centers since I was. Very, very young. I've been in the, in the field for 25 years. I started as a direct care provider and have worked my way up through this. At the core of everything that I've done caring for older adults, caring for individuals with disabilities is the caregiver. And I come to that both from a personal and a professional point of view. My mother is the youngest of eight and I have watched her be the caregiver for. Both of her parents and many of her siblings, and so growing up that was just what I saw that you do. And so along with really providing the adult day service, which it gives people an opportunity to have something of their own, a purpose-filled day care through professional staff at the same moment, you're also giving that caregiver a break. That caregiver now has time and opportunity to step away. And so for me, it's always been twofold. You can't have one without the other. So if you're not taking care of the caregiver, you, you don't have a participant. That's what we call them in adult day, a participant to care for. But if you don't take care of that participant. Your caregiver is gonna burn out and nobody's gonna make it. So I come to it very, very passionately. I think it's one of the things that molded me and made me who I am. And I've worked with so many amazing dedicated people along the way. So I'm happy to be here and talk about it and, and hopefully share more information and empower not only people to understand the burden that it is, but also the gift that it is, because it is not all bad. Wow. We're so glad we found you, Tia, because as we talk in the financial arena that we have a caregiving tsunami is what we call it, with like 10 or 11,000 people turning 65 every day in the United States for the next seven years. It's that swell of the baby boomers, right? That goes through all these different transitions. Well, right now we're aging, we're turning 65. We're retiring. So a lot of things are happening, and you know. As, as I see in my peer group we see more like, I don't know, physical therapy groups starting up because we're all playing pickleball and falling down. You know what I mean? Then you see, the short term care. Then you see the long term, you see the progression, right? So, it's a financial issue. It's a woman's issue, and so we talk to a lot of financial professionals about it, and we know that what you provide are adult day services, and we would love for you to really give a definition around what that is, how it's leveraged. I don't think people have ever heard of this before. You are so right. And I think one of the things we say in the industry is it's the best kept secret and we don't want it to be. So, adult Day services is not a fringe service. It's not something that's on the peripheral. Adult day Services is a core home and community-based services that allow individuals to live at home and. The majority of them are living with or near a caregiver. So either it's a child who's taken on the role as caregiver, a spouse who's taken on the role. But it could be a neighbor, it could be a family friend. So one of the things you'll hear me say is I don't always say your loved one because, you know, sometimes you're caring for somebody that don't necessarily love, but you're there to do it for for them. So adult day, let me get back to adult day. is a place for people to come during the day for activities, socialization and care. There are two different kind of models. In adult day, you'll have a health model and a social model, and, and you can have a, a hybrid. I mean, it can, a health model could also have a social component and a social. Model typically always has some sort of health component. There's just a little bit of nuance throughout that. Most adult day centers are open Monday through Friday during work hours and the real goal for adult day is for that person who's a caregiver to be able to drop their person off or get a ride to the adult day center so that now they can go and do the things they need to do without worry. A lot of times you'll see working professional women, and again, it's, it's. Well over 60% of caregivers are, are women. And they may be working, but they're on their phone, they're checking their apps, they're making sure that mom and dad are okay. When they're in adult day, they don't have to do that, right? Like, I can truly clock out. And then there's two beautiful things that happen. One, the person often a person living with dementia or a person with other comorbidities has something that's theirs. They go, they meet people, they have a real true connection, but they're also getting assistance with their ADLs. They're also getting a meal. They're also getting connection and community. But at that same moment, they are able to be themselves. So when they come back together, so when the person the caregiver picks up their person, they're happy to see one another, you know? And I always say, no matter how good the relationship is, you cannot withstand 24 hours together. You need a break. And both parties need that break, not just the caregiver, right? The, the person also needs a break. So adult day really provides that to people. The thing that I will say, and, and you know, there's a lot of buzzwords out there. Person-centered care is, is one of them. But at its core, adult day was person centered before person centered was a thing. And what I mean by that is each adult day center truly looks at who they're serving. They meet that person where they are, they develop a care plan to be able to support them through this aging process. And I've seen people. In adult day for 15 plus years. If you think about what a solution that is, that's 15 years that that caregiver was able to continue to work 15 years, that that caregiver was able to be present at work because that's another piece of this puzzle. And it's the lowest cost option. So that's the other thing that I think is so important to understand. You know, adult day, when you look at it compared to the other long-term care options is a fraction of the cost. And you get higher level of care. And so for me, I'm very passionate about adult day. It's been my life's work and I am so thrilled to be in this role where I can help adult day centers kind of grow and see the opportunities. But along with that, I also get to connect with people who are caregiving, who desperately need support. I can't tell you how many phone calls we get that our people are just like, I don't know what to do. I heard of adult day. Tell me what that is. Well, are these like private facilities that people open and how much do they typically charge, and how do people find you? it is a wide gamut. So there are, many day centers that are nonprofit. So they're you know a nonprofit organization. There are adult day centers that are within like government, community like a city may have an adult day center, for example. And then there are private entities. They range from a one owner center to a 30 owner center. There are franchises and. You know, I don't think it matters if it's a for-profit or a non-profit. My experience has been the majority of people in this field are doing it for the right reasons. They're here to care for people. You know, it's just a business definition basically, for non-profit versus for-profit centers, range from all levels. So you may have a center that specializes in people living with dementia and they have 30 people. Those are, that's kind of where I have been, like my wheelhouse was that, but you know, we also serve individuals with disabilities, so younger adults. 18 and up who go to these centers. They have the opportunity to interact, make friends, be in a community. They often are out in the community, so they'll take outings into the larger community, go do projects, things like that. Adult day at its core. Is really that, to get someone out of their home, give them a safe place to go. Beyond that when you talk about cost and, and you know, obviously it does vary. It's different in every state, but on average it's about a hundred dollars a day roughly. And so if you think about the level of care that you're getting for that eight hours of care. Two, usually two meals and a snack. Nurse oversight is often included and I anecdotally can tell you how many times one of our nurses. You have a different set of eyes on somebody. They see things differently, right? And so if I'm caring for my mom, I don't notice that she's acting a little off because I'm right here. It's so close. But the nurse may go, you know, something's not quite right. Why don't you get her into the doctor? And it's a UTI and it's something that we can fix quickly. I've also had my nurse you know, detect a heart attack and a stroke. And get emergency services there right away. That person was back in our day program in the next couple of days. Whereas if they had been home alone, what might have happened? You know? So it's really that eyes on the person that I think is so important, but the value is there. I mean, if you're looking at comparatively to a assisted living or skilled nursing facility, it's a fraction, a third of the cost. And I'm being generous when I say that, so, yeah. It feels very comparable to like daycare for children maybe even cheaper than that, which is crazy. Is there like a you know, we always talk about like the seven things, the seven daily things you need to be able to do by yourself eating, dressing, bathroom. Is there like a certain level where it's like we can no longer serve them or, you guys have kind of limits like that? Sure, and each day program is different. I will tell you you know, from my perspective a lot of day programs, if that person is. Living with dementia and, and that's, that kind of tends to be one of the, the big populations that we serve. So as long as they're redirectable and maybe don't need full on weight bearing assistance. So for example, they are able to do a transfer or something like that, but some adult day centers, health model day centers have lifts and have full-time nursing staff and they can take higher acuity individuals. And so it really does depend. I will tell you the one thing that I've seen year after year is that people don't access these services soon enough. So they wait and. I get it. You know, I mean there is this, this concept of like, nobody is like, ooh, ooh, I cannot wait to go to adult day, right? Like, as we age, we think we're never gonna need this. This is, this is nice to have, but it's not for me. And what I've learned is, there is a sweet spot. So if you get that person there, if you're starting to see that they're declining, they need a little bit of reminders and assistance, they can then age in place there for much, much longer. So, for example, if, if someone comes to me by the time they're already needing a lot of assistance with their ADLs or extremely confused and looking for the exit. We call it exit seeking. That's gonna be harder to meet their needs at day one versus if I met them six months earlier and now we have a relationship. They are safe, they feel comfortable. Now when I have to redirect them, it's not a problem, right? Like they're, they're able to meld into the day program. So I think people wait too long. They don't know about us, as you said. And so the way to find a day program in your area is our website, NADSA.org, has a locator on it, and you can go in and put your address or your state city and find the closest adult day centers and their contact information. The other, tip I have is every county, every state has a area Agency on Aging, so AAA, and they are a great resource. They often provide information and referral, so they're gonna know who's in their community, who's providing these services, and they'll also be able to kind of direct you based on what your payer is, because people pay for adult day in different ways. And so I know you shared a bit about kind of how you saw your mom take care of her parents and then all the siblings, because she's the youngest daughter, so she kind of had that, which is kind of opposite that we usually hear. We usually see the oldest, but I can see how now the youngest has to take care of the oldest. And so is this kind of what opened your eyes to the challenges families face with caregiving? Is that really how this door kind of opened for you or was there another experience that added to that? it definitely played a part, right? So, watching my mom go through this you know, as a young woman at 28, her mom had cancer and, and needed caregiving and then 10 years later, her dad needed it. So that certainly colored like my experience of where I was coming from. I fell in love with adult day in a very different way. I had met a woman who was an activity coordinator and I thought, oh my gosh, this is the greatest job ever. Right? You get to hang out with older adults, you get to be creative. And so I, it for me was an instant, like just a literal spark of this is what I want to be doing. This is who I am. And I think watching my mom do that over the years really played into that. The other piece I will say is as I grew in my career she then was taking on the care of other siblings, and so I felt like I could help a little bit and, and that was really not that I. You know, probably did that much, but I was at least someone who knew the words that they were talking about when we were talking about an ombudsman or you know, these other things. And so I say that because this is what happens when you're talking about women in the sandwich generation, caring for people. Seven out of 10 of those caregivers are, they're working, they are managing multiple things, One in four, I think, are professional caregivers themselves. So they're a nurse, they're somebody in the field, they're providing in-home care. So if you're kind of good at it, right, and this is what you do for your profession, then it's really, really transferred to your personal life. And so I lived that a little bit firsthand. Not that I'm a nurse by any means, but you know, I'm the one that they're gonna come to when they have a question about someone with dementia. I'm the one they're gonna come to when they have a question about Medicare, Medicaid those type of things. And that's what we see happen. We see women doing double duty, right? They're not only working, they're, and sometimes triple duty. They're caring for their parent, they're caring for their child. And there's no break and there's no off button, right? I think that's the other thing is if you're an empathetic, caring individual, you don't know how to say no. So you just keep going. And eventually it catches up with you. Yeah. It does land on women. I mean, I'm sure you see that day to day to day. I mean, it does land on men, but the, the lion's share is for women. And, and I do think if there's like a woman in the family who's the nurse, everyone turns to that person and says, oh, well you, you handle this part of it. Right. and. Oftentimes the data will tell you it's the oldest daughter because she's the most responsible one typically, right? Or the one who's just naturally is managing a lot of other things. I don't know why that is, birth order or whatever, but that's what happens and we see that a lot and it's financially taxing. Emotionally taxing and you know, suddenly they have to learn a whole new vernacular and talk to people, doctors, nurses, other caretakers. It's a lot. What do you see happening with women in these roles? Yeah, I think the challenge that I see and, and as a woman in this demographic, right, I'm the oldest daughter. Fortunately, my parents are extremely healthy right now and, and. I'm grateful for that. But you see women in their thirties to their fifties, like that's typically who we're seeing. 35% of them are women of color. And so that disproportionately affects that group. And the other piece that I think is so critical is those are our prime earning years. Right, like 30 to 50 is our prime years that we're earning and growing our careers and, and being able to do that. And so if you've got one hand over here and one hand over here, your productivity goes down, your ability to work goes down. And so I think that's the piece that I see that is so, detrimental. It's. It's expensive to be a caregiver. It costs around $10,000 a year out of pocket to just do this out of the goodness of your heart because you're losing wages, you're losing opportunities. People who maybe would be up for a promotion but say, oh, my life is just too challenging right now. I can't take that step. And so. That's the part that I see that kind of breaks my heart day to day. You know, when I was in the adult day centers, I can't tell you how many times I would see a woman rushing to drop their mom off. Kids are still in the car. They've gotta take them to school and then somehow go to work, be a productive human, and then come back and, and be happy to see both their children and their parents. You know, one of the other things I heard directly from someone is. You know, meal times are really challenging, right? So older adults often eat earlier than a, a child who's got soccer. And so, one thing that I can really recommend is, is if you have the ability to create some solutions that will make your life easier, do it. So, for example, we used to provide meals and this woman would get this take home meal that she could warm up. It was a good quality, high nutritional meal. It wasn't a peanut butter sandwich and she could feed

her mom at 5: 18:47

00 PM even though she wasn't gonna feed her children until seven 30 by the time they were done with sports and all these other things. Just that alone, she said, saved her. and I didn't realize how important that was, right? Like we thought we were doing a great thing by providing people with food. We knew that was good, but at the end of the day, the fact that that was one less thing she had to worry about, that was one less, challenge. She could sit with her mom while her mom ate she had some time to do that because she wasn't in the kitchen. Also trying to get the chicken nuggets for the kids or whatever that was. So I say be creative where you can you can get pre-made meals, you could pre-make meals and freeze them so that you always had something ready for them. It doesn't have to be a hungry man dinner from the frozen section. Like there's, there's really good, healthy options out there. But that's a simple solution. That might really give you some time back in your day. Yeah, it's a balance of what you wanna do. And you know, sometimes I think there's just so much pressure of like, well, I should be making a home cooked meal. Like they always did this for me, like all this stuff. I love your eye roll right Oh, the mom guilt is so real. Yeah. And like, you wanna do your best, but you know, you have all these people to take care of. And I think the one thing I loved about what you said earlier was just like they can drop 'em off knowing that they're in good care. Because there's always like, yeah, you could have another sibling come over who's not as familiar with the plan right now, but like. And yeah, there's eyes on them for a couple hours, but you're not totally off, which that mental load is just so much of just like, are they gonna be okay? Should I be at my phone? There was a ping, you know, is it mom? Like all these things. And so it's like you're never fully off. And so when you drop 'em off, it's like, well. If they need nine one one, they'll call 'em. There's nurses, there's food. Like there should be unless someone's actually dying, there should be no reason you call me, which is like such a sigh of relief, I think. Because otherwise you're not, I mean, that being off is so hard for a caretaker. I think that's like the biggest thing. And so what other like support options do you recommend kind of people know about? I mean, I like how you recommend the food, the daycare. Are there any other ones that you feel like people are just not taking advantage of? Especially when they're, yeah. Families, kids, parents, dogs, work, all the things. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that not enough people get multiple solutions. They think, oh, I'm gonna do this one thing and that's gonna help. And the reality is, is it's not. Right. Caregiving is 24/7, 365. And so while I obviously feel like adult day is a huge piece of that because that can take away 40 to 50 hours a week that you wouldn't have to be doing that. You can also supplement that by maybe having someone come in in the morning or in the evening to help mom get dressed or get showered. You know, showering is a big piece of it, right? Like. This is not a comfortable thing. we have professionals who they know how to give somebody a shower. They know how to help them stay warm so that it's not a triggering event. All of these things that your average daughter, first daughter doesn't know. Right? And, Is really uncomfortable. And so sometimes you don't have the facility for that, or sometimes you don't have the the right things. Adult days often can give people showers as well. So I think that's something to keep in mind. Utilize multiple components of each service. So for example, if you're going to an adult day and they also offer a support group, go to that support group. If you are going to an adult day, that also offers, physical therapy. I heard you talk about like, within their community, they also offer a hairdresser or a foot care person. Utilize those.'cause those are appointments you're not making out. In addition to this having someone come in your home a couple hours beginning end of the day, that takes that burden off you. And now you get to just sit down on, on the couch and say, gosh, mom, let's watch a show. Or let's, color or play a game. Now that's quality time. So I think that's the piece that I, I really think is important. And I don't know if this is a good place to say this, but I always tell people, you have to protect that familial relationship because at the moment that you stop being their daughter you are 100% their caregiver. You're burnt out. you cannot. Imagine how difficult that is. Right? So I say you have to protect it, right? So if there's a job that you can let someone else do, let them do it. and sometimes it's a matter of money, right? Like, I'm not saying that there's not a, a financial implication with that because sometimes there is. But if you have a friend who says, how can I help? You know what? You could bring dinner every Tuesday that would help me. Because people ask, they wanna help, but we don't know exactly what to say back. Right. And so that's my piece of advice is utilize any and every resource out there and use multiple ones. Don't think one is gonna fix this. You need supports from every angle. Such good information. Yeah. Because you don't want that relationship. To break, which it so can it. I can just see being like, mom, like I can't stand being with her anymore. She's driving me crazy. You know, you hear that from women sometimes, and it's sad because it's like, these are the last years of her life. You wanna really make sure that you tie it with a bow and not just cause it being aggravated with one another. Yeah. I feel like it's, there's like always like the, the nagging of needing them to do things or like take care of themselves or take their meds. And then now it's like you're just the nagger in the, in the relationship. Like, do this, do that, you know? And it's like, I just wanna be the friend sometimes, or like the fun one, you know? I feel like mom always gets the mean card. Uhhuh, I love that you brought that up because that's what happened. and then you as the caretaker, are nagging your children, you're nagging your parent, you're probably nagging your spouse. You don't wanna be nagging anybody, frankly, like you would much rather be sitting over here in peace. But these are things that, you know, have to be done. And women take that on. They take that role on so deeply and seriously within themselves. And so that's why I say farm it out if you can, right? Like farm it out, let somebody else be that person. I had a good friend in the industry who would always say everyone has a role to play and so it's okay if this isn't your role. Right? Like, so if there's multiple children in the family and there's one who is just really financially sound and you know, has no problem paying the bills and is really able to handle that with little effort, let them. Don't own everything. I think that's the other thing we tend to do it is not gonna get done the way I wanna get it done. And I think you gotta give that up. You have to be willing to let some other people help. And you're right, it might not look exactly how you did it, but you didn't have to do it. And that's the key. Yeah, I do have an important question and like I think about my parents both who have passed, but I don't think this is something is, would've been fantastic for my dad, but I'm sure he would've been fighting us all the way to go. Men are more on that train. Women are more social. Where men are like, I'm not gonna go meet new people yeah. You know, sometimes people find that awkward, just like any new environment and I'm sure they would fight it. So what are some tips on introducing them to adult day care? Yeah. I think that's really critical. First of all, you have to set people up for success. I say that to say that, work with your day center. Look at the calendar. Don't bring your dad to visit on the day that they're doing something he would not like. I always use this example, right? Like, if I don't know that somebody doesn't hear well, then how can I make sure that they're successful? You have to really think about this person and who they are, and then look to try to make that first day successful. The other thing is, is they're not gonna instantly love it, right? Like, I think that's the piece that is really hard sometimes. And we as, as the, the caregiver often hear the worst. Like, you know how it is , if you tell the person you love the, they get the ver worst version of you. So they're not gonna get in the car afterwards and say Thank you. I really appreciate you taking me. I mean, not to say that never happens. It does happen. But in reality, this is the first like little toe dip into the pool, right? So I've now my, either as a caregiver or as an individual, I've realized I need some help. And so you're coming to this place and you're starting to realize like, okay, this is a little scary. So what we say is it, first of all, it takes time. So I could quite literally count after five visits. I would see people's shoulders relax. So if those five visits all happen in one week, that's different than if they happen over the course of a month, right? So you're gonna have to be patient and give it time. The other piece is start slow. You know, if you need to just do a a short day visit, reinforce that you're coming back. Honestly, like negativity around this idea that you're being put somewhere, right? And I always tell people, don't ever put me anywhere. That's not gonna go over well, but. Older adults are afraid of that. It's a very fearful thing that you're being put somewhere. So if you're dropping your person off, make sure you're back on time. Make sure that you're reinforcing to them that you don't live here. This is not where you're gonna be living. This is just a place to go during the day. The other thing is, is you can call it whatever you want. You know, we had people who called it the club, the center the veterans group whatever that may be. That's okay. find a name, find something that works for them. And then the other pieces, you mentioned men, right? Like especially of that generation, they didn't have hobbies like you. What did you do for fun? I didn't do anything. I went to work. You know? And so I think you have to be creative. And one of my favorite, favorite stories of all time is I was working with a, a gentleman his name is Mario, and he was a man's man, right? Like this man was a he had been a mason, a bricklayer. He had been working up until about six months and he had a, a health incident that just really changed his, his whole trajectory. His wife had just passed and his daughter was thrown into this role of caregiver. I mean, I'm not making this up, this is genuinely one of my favorite people of all time. She was. Exhausted. she had children. She was like, please take him. So he came for his first day of adult day and it didn't go well. You know, he was not happy to be there. He was trying to leave. He was a little bit aggressive and angry. she came to pick him up and I said, I'm be real honest with you, I'm not sure this is gonna work. Like we will cont we'll give it another try. But this is, this is looking a little It may be not the right fit for him. And she looked at me and she said, oh, please try, please. I need you more than you ever would know. And so I said, well, of course we will Brought him in the next day. And this is like in the early mid two thousands when, I don't know if you guys followed the coupon clipping. Like mass hysteria. That was clipping. I was the crazy coupon lady. And so I brought coupons like the, the participants would cut out and we would sort 'em and we would donate 'em down the hall to the WIC office. And so this was something we were doing sort of casually, like just for fun he comes in and I said, Mario, I am on a deadline. Like I am late. I need your help. And he sat down and he started clipping coupons. And we would sort them in boxes. You'd put the baby coupons, the canned goods, the beauty, you know, all those things. And lucky for us, the WIC office literally was down the hall. And so he would load them up and he would put 'em on his walker and he'd walk'em down and we'd donate 'em to the, to the WIC office. And the ladies there were always so appreciative. He could see that the waiting room was full of people. He could see the bins, where his coupons were. And that is my favorite story because it's, he was not the typical person that you're gonna find in an adult day center. And if you had told this man that he would find contentment in his last years clipping coupons, he would've had some choice words and probably punched you in the face like absolutely would not have been that person. But adult day can really connect with people on an individual level, whereas. Sometimes that's not possible in other settings. And so because I was able to figure out what made him find purpose, which was being useful, he wasn't about leisure. He didn't wanna be over there painting something for fun. He, he had work to do. And so he, he attended that day program for five plus years as his dementia progressed. So did his ability to clip coupons. Right. we didn't have him stop clipping coupons. We just changed. He clipped the expired one. Right. Like it was, it was perfectly fine. Make it accessible to people at different levels within their core of who they are. And so for me, that's the big difference that adult day offers. And that's how you get people. You connect with them. And every adult day that I've worked with, that's what they do. They see you for who you are. Not just this diagnosis, right. You start, you don't start with here's a person with Alzheimer's who has diabetes. No. You start with, here's someone who's worked their whole life to own their own business and might need some support with. ADLs. That's the second hand part, not the first part. I love that story and it is so funny. Like I can see them needing a purpose, you know? I just need to do something. Especially if you have been working your whole life doing all those things and you're fresh outta work. I mean, yeah. I mean, Barb, if I even gave you a painting, I could see you being like, I'm not doing this. Like, what's next? You know what I mean? Not like you're there yet, yeah, there's some people who just have such a drive to do things. That leisure was never a thing and it's not gonna start now. An adult day gives them a reason to get up and get dressed, right. Like we see that all the time people come in and say dad's sleeping all day. I can't get him excited about anything. And after about a week in adult day, you know, it's Saturday and he is like, where's the bus? I'm ready to go because. Because as a human, that's something that drove him and he needed you know, I can relate to that. Like I need a purpose. And everything that I do, I need purpose. And so that doesn't end when you get a certain diagnosis that doesn't end when you reach a certain age like that, that core of who you are is still there. I think adult day is really good at decoding that and figuring out like what that is for these, for, for each person. Do you find that most people go like five days a week, or is it more like three or a couple times a month, or what do you kind of see on average? People usually start out two to three days a week. What I find is as they get comfortable, they add more days, right? So start out with two days a week. That gets you in the routine. You still have time to do doctor's appointments and other things on these other days, but as that person progresses, it's a lot easier to add another day. Five days a week I think is amazing if you can do it because that is truly giving you a real break. But the other piece is, is you do have to know your person and so if someone is extremely resistant, don't start them five days a week because it's not gonna work, and then you've lost your opportunity. The other thing I find is. Timing is really important. And so just because maybe you go for that first tour and it doesn't work, maybe your person is not quite there yet. Pause, give it a couple months and try again. Right? Because unfortunately they are going to decline and as they decline, it may be easier to help them transition into an adult day center. So while I think it's important to stay the course, it's also important not to force it if it's really not working. You know, Tia, I think you've given. A huge sigh of relief to so many women listening that are like, oh, I gotta check this out. Right. This is new. This is new for many of us because you know, you don't need something until you need it. Right. And I think a lot of women are probably thinking, I'm gonna find this place and see if this works with my parent, my sister, whomever it might be in their lives, because this is exactly what I need to get. Back into my routine of what I was doing before I was a caretaker, and I'm gonna check this out. I just hear a collective sigh of relief for so many women now that we've unpacked what is this and where do we find it, and what do they do and how can they help me? So this has been fantastic. Yeah, and I would just say that hearing like your passion behind it and like the want to help people, I think sometimes like some of these homes may get a bad rep or you know, it's just people clocking in clock now and it's like, no, I can tell you're like, how do we make this most successful for everyone as. As individual humans, which is just such a exciting thing to see. And just again, like barb's at a sigh of relief. But before we log off, there is a question we ask all of our guests. And so, with all your experience and, and working with all these different people what does financial freedom mean to you? You have no idea how timely this question is for me personally, financial freedom for me is being able to travel and spend time with my daughters who are 18 and 22 to not have to be so tied. To something that is not really serving you in the long run. and I, personally never thought I would find financial freedom and I'm hopeful that that will happen for me this year, and I'm thrilled and excited for it and can't wait. Oh, congrats. I love Thank sounds like it's been a good year for you so far. Well, it's been a, it's actually been a really challenging year, but in the end, I think changing what was important to me. Really changed the game, right? Realizing it's not about the stuff, it's not about keeping up with the Joneses, as they say. It's, I would rather be spending time and financial freedom is the gift of time in many, many ways. And do you have a trips on the books? I do, yeah. I'm going to Mexico in, in the fall. But I hope to add a couple others in there somewhere. Well, we appreciate you, Tia, coming on, sharing your expertise, sharing this with our community. I know it's gonna be an impactful one, and so we thank you for all the work that you're doing and we encourage our listeners to reach out if they have questions, check you out online, all that good stuff so they can use all of these wonderful resources. And so until next time, I hope everyone is financially fearless. You've been listening to Women Money, the shit we don't talk about. Now it's time to take what you've learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head to PurseStrings. co and sign up today. Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. Love this episode? Leave us a review and help us empower even more women to own their financial power. Until next time, be financially fearless.