The Hidden Money Trauma Holding Women Back with Anjali Jariwala

Money isn’t just math… it’s emotional.

This week on Women & Money: The Shit We Don’t Talk About, we’re joined by Anjali Jariwala, the founder of FIT Advisors, a financial planning firm which serves physicians and business owners across the US. After working with Fortune 500 clients and high net worth individuals at distinguished firms, Anjali decided she could make a bigger impact by starting her own firm. Her approach is to help clients understand that money is a tool to reach financial goals but emotions can impact their ability to make good financial decisions.

She brings a powerful perspective on the emotional side of money, and why so many women feel stuck, overwhelmed, or disconnected when it comes to their finances. Anjali shares how money trauma shows up in real life, from overspending to over saving, and how the stories we carry from childhood quietly shape the financial decisions we make today.

What you’ll hear in this episode:

01:00 How money trauma shows up in everyday decisions

02:00 Overspending vs over saving

03:00 Childhood stories and financial patterns

10:00 How to reduce financial anxiety

12:00 Seeing money as a tool

15:00 Why money conversations feel taboo

20:00 Aligning money with your values

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• Website 
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• LinkedIn   

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Transcript

Dr. Barb: [00:00:00] Hey Mag. Remember that situation you told me one time when I mentioned to you we didn't talk about money because I didn't want you to worry about it.

Dr. Barb: Then did you start worrying about it?

Maggie: Well, I didn't think it was something to worry about, and then once you said that, I was like, oh, people are worried. I, 

Dr. Barb: Some people worry about it.

Maggie: Yeah. Now I, do you know what I mean? I was an adult, 

Dr. Barb: It went from,

Maggie: I'm No worry. Don't worry.

Dr. Barb: from me telling you to worry about it.

Maggie: No, but you know, it's just like, then you realize, I like, the biggest thing is I never knew how much things cost. Like you guys always said we'd be fine and I was never worried that we wouldn't be fine. But like, I never had a perspective of like how much things would be at the end of the day. You 

Dr. Barb: like what things. 

Maggie: Health insurance. I don't know.

Maggie: You know, like going on a trip, I don't know like how much money you put towards a car. Like in the scope of like if you zoomed out, like it never made sense, you know? But there was always money on the magic plastic card, so it was like, hmm, I don't know.

Maggie: And then I got in the real world, world and I was [00:01:00] like, oh, a third goes to taxes. Okay. Half goes to health insurance. All right. And you still pay when you go to the doctor. Got it.

Dr. Barb: Yeah, it's all that adulting stuff, right?

Maggie: I'll never forget though, maybe I've told this story about this one lady I was working with who was filling out her daughter's FAFSA for her, and I was like, oh, you guys made me do that, you know?

Maggie: And she's like, oh, I wouldn't want her to do that. Like, I don't want her to know how much money we make. And I was like, Ooh.

Dr. Barb: Hmm. I'm sure a lot of parents are like that.

Maggie: I guess, yeah. But I was like, she's gonna have a rough go for as much as like, I didn't think I'd know. And then I got out there and I was like, wow, I had no perspec, you know, not as much perspective.

Maggie: And I was like, she's really not gonna have any if she, like, if you didn't know, like your parents are like, this is kind of the lifestyle we hold with a hundred thousand dollars a year. Versus like, I don't know, it was crazy. I was like, that's interesting. You should probably have a conversation with her, especially before she takes on this college debt.

Dr. Barb: Yeah. 

Dr. Barb: Like we did. 

Maggie: [00:02:00] money's trauma. We don't want the trauma.

Dr. Barb: yeah. A lot of people have money trauma based on their upbringing around how it was managing their household. We talk about this a lot, right? And it carries into their own lives because that's what they learned. That was woven into, like I said, the fabric of who they are and who they became, because that's your everyday knee jerk reaction around.

Dr. Barb: Money as it relates to people inside your household, your community, your religion, you know, other impacts that impact that society as a whole. So, money, trauma, it was a great discussion to have and Anjali was so revealing about her own money trauma, even though she's a financial advisor, she revealed some very interesting things, which I was so thankful that she did because it just shows we're just all human.

Maggie: Yeah, I was like, I'm trying to think now. I'm like, I don't think anyone gets out as great as their parents with are without trauma, no matter [00:03:00] what. And it might not feel like trauma, but like everything is always created and made into a story, you know? And I think the most interesting part is same people from the same house with very similar lives, like have totally different outcomes.

Maggie: But either way, like everyone has their own story slash trauma that comes with it.

Dr. Barb: Yeah, and the best thing about it is realizing it, acknowledging it, going to therapy around it. And all of that's been discussed in this podcast. So I say, let's get started.

Maggie: let's dive in. 

Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit we don't talk [00:04:00] about.

Maggie: We are excited to dive into this episode today. Is this a topic we don't touch on as much as maybe we should? So we're excited to have Anjali on today. So before we dive in, could you share a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Anjali: Of course. Thank you for having me. So I'm Anjali. I'm the founder of Fit Advisors, a financial planning firm that's serves physician and small business owners. But at the heart of what we do is we create peace of mind. So we work to create healthy relationships around money, because money can have a lot of underlying emotions and trauma.

Anjali: So what we really wanna get to is a relationship in which people feel empowered and they can let go of some of that maybe trauma or weight that they're carrying, so that they can make better financial decisions for themselves. 

Maggie: I love that. And some reason you think like business owners and like medical professionals, like they must have a lot of money. They probably have no trauma you just think money must come easy. Right? But like that trauma really affects us all. It's not just people [00:05:00] who don't have a ton of money.

Maggie: So how do women usually realize that money trauma goes way deeper than math and numbers.

Anjali: Yeah, it can manifest in so many different ways. I think as women, you know, we're just more in tune to our feelings. It could be making a financial decision, feeling stuck about it, feeling emotionally charged about it. Feeling like, why can't I make progress on this goal?

Anjali: And so usually, at least for someone like me who does have money trauma, when I feel stuck, I realize that there's something underlying there that I need to uncover in order to move forward. 

Dr. Barb: Well, how does it manifest money trauma as it manifest in overspending over saving avoiding talking about money and how do you equate that to the fact that that's money trauma?

Anjali: Honestly, it can be all of the above, right? Maybe as children felt like we were really deprived, maybe money was always really tight. So for us, maybe growing up, we feel like money is never there, money's never constant. So we [00:06:00] may feel a sense of insecurity, so we may build a habit of overspending, right? Like I don't know if I'm gonna have this money forever, I'm gonna overspend. And then you could have the same emotions and go on the opposite spectrum, which is you over save, right? And what we wanna get to is a healthy balance like overspending over saving. None of that is good.

Anjali: None of that really helps us reach our financial goals. So it can manifest in so many different ways. And you can take two people with very similar backgrounds and it can be completely different results as an adult, right? So like I always give the example of my husband and I we're both children of immigrants grew up pretty middle class.

Anjali: I've always felt like money was scarce with just what was said to me as a child. And I don't, you know, it's not my parents who said anything wrong, it's just they're immigrants, right? So they taught me money in a specific way and I grew up being very scared to spend, I felt guilty when I spent money.

Anjali: I felt like I needed permission to spend money. And my [00:07:00] husband, who is also raised by a single mom, grew up with an immigrant mom is the exact opposite. He doesn't worry about it. He feels like money is always going to be there, and here are two people with very similar backgrounds. And the way we view money as adults is so different, right?

Anjali: So it's really understanding that story that we tell ourselves when it comes to money, and being able to unwind that to realize that, okay, this is a story and how do I change that narrative? 

Dr. Barb: So I have to ask, did you know that going into marriage that he was that way? Like did you discuss your approach to money? We talk about this a lot, especially when people are coupling up and one might be one way, one might be the other. Like I come from a large family of 13, my husband comes from a smaller family of three in a more affluent neighborhood, and we look at money quite differently as well, but

Dr. Barb: it's just we learned that about each other. I'm not quite so sure we really unpacked it until we started doing more work around Purse Strings and learning more about [00:08:00] this. 

Anjali: it's so interesting because I think it's so fundamental for couples to have those conversations before they enter into a marriage. Right. And it's not because we want them to feel the exact same way. Right. But it's to have a good understanding of how each person views money, because that just makes a transition into marriage so much smoother.

Anjali: When my husband and I got together, you know, he was still a resident, I was just starting to work. We had no money, right? So nothing came up. We talked about the big things, but the conversation around money started after marriage, right? When we started to make decisions on like purchasing our first home, relocating from Illinois to Los Angeles, right?

Anjali: There were all these things that started to come into play and I got scared. I was insecure about money and spending money, and what ended up happening with us is that we hired a financial advisor even though this is what I do for a living, I am very biased toward my money. I have emotions around my money, and the [00:09:00] only way that I can separate that is I need an impartial third person who comes in, runs all the numbers, does all the spreadsheets, right, and sits down with us and tells us like, you guys will be fine.

Anjali: This is okay to do. So sometimes you need kind of that outside person, whether it's, you know, a couple's therapist who helps facilitate those conversations. Whether you have an advisor who's helping with those conversations, you sometimes just need to recognize that, look, we need help beyond just ourselves.

Anjali: Otherwise, this gonna be much more difficult path as we continue to like live life through our marriage. 

Dr. Barb: I'm so glad you said that because even financial advisors need their own financial advisor, which is refreshing to see and and to know, and people often question, why do I need a financial advisor? Here's a perfect example, right?

Anjali: Exactly. 

Maggie: Yeah, having that third party and someone who's not so emotionally attached, like of course we want all success with our money, but it is so different when it's specifically yours versus like, you could be [00:10:00] so logical for somebody else. I mean, I even think about like any dating advice. There's things you give to your girlfriend.

Maggie: It's so much easier to share that advice than to put it into practice on yourself. You know? Where you're like, no, no, we're not gonna do that. You know, it's just. It is funny how you just need that third party. And that was able to kind of make you guys come together and agree on these things.

Maggie: Like, we will be okay. You know, more money will come. And I know many women carry their family's emotional weight around money. So how does that show up in like adult decision making?

Anjali: Yeah. It's really interesting. I'm the oldest daughter in my family, so there's something very distinct about being the oldest daughter in whichever family you're in, or the one who tends to be more the caregiver, the one who was parentified as a child, right? So I think it's not only that you carry the weight of your own finances, but you end up carrying the weight of your parents' finances too.

Anjali: So it's usually those clients who are much earlier in coming to me and talking about planning for aging parents, right? That's work that we [00:11:00] do. But I've noticed those clients are the ones who will start those conversations much earlier than maybe they need to because they're worried and concern, and that carrying that burden and stress weighs on their own personal finances as well as the relationships that they're in as well.

Anjali: So I think it manifests into this sense of needing to feel responsible all the time. And then the kind of the contra feeling with that is feeling of guilt, right? Like feeling guilty about spending money, feeling guilty on treating yourself, things like that. So when one of my clients, you know, gets a big bonus, right?

Anjali: They're so quick to email and be like, should we invest? Should we save? What should we do? And I was like, no. First you're gonna carve out a portion of that for yourself because you worked really hard and you deserve that as a treat. So sometimes. My job is to just give them permission to spend, right?

Anjali: They're already responsible. They're using me. They're funding all their buckets, so sometimes they just need outside permission to feel comfortable and to eliminate that underlying [00:12:00] emotion that's preventing them from really enjoying their money, because that's what we really are trying to get to at the end of the day, right?

Anjali: We really wanna create a life in which we can enjoy our money, and it's really hard to do that if you have all of these underlying feelings that prevent you from really enjoying that. 

Dr. Barb: Yeah. Wow. You know, just money is so emotional. It's crazy. The feelings that it can give us from happiness, to overwhelm, to sadness, to guilt. All of these range of emotions, depending on if we earned it, if it was given to us, if we lost it, whatever.

Maggie: Can we dive into a little bit more about how about especially maybe like the oldest daughter, as we know, that's usually the one who's gonna be the caretaker, and so you do get more anxious about like your parents' finances. What if I have to step out, you know, all these different things and like I've had to step out before and take care of family and like

Maggie: sometimes when your parents keep their cards close to their chest, you're like, I don't know what I'm working with for you. So then maybe I gotta keep more 'cause I actually don't [00:13:00] know what you have. You know how this is gonna affect me. Again, you're the oldest of the family, so you know, then you feel the responsibility.

Maggie: Like, I don't want this, it landed on me. I don't want this to land on my other siblings or have them to feel the pressure 'cause I don't like the pressure, so I don't wanna pass that down. So can we just kind of dive in more there either tips that you have or what you see with your clients. 

Anjali: Sure. I mean, at the end of the day, a lot of it is like they need reassurance. So it's almost like we run a mini financial plan for their parents, right? So I have questions that I always have my clients start with, which are, you know, ask your parents if they have their powers of attorney for help care and property.

Anjali: Who is listed in those roles? Do they have a will or trust? Right? Those are usually easier topics to broach with parents, because the other thing that pops up is that there's a lot of dynamics in which the parents are very uncomfortable talking about money, especially with their child. So you first have to get over that hurdle.

Anjali: If there's this [00:14:00] relationship in which they don't wanna discuss anything and things like powers of attorney trust will, those are usually pretty safe, right? Then you start getting into information about retirement, if they're not retired yet, what are their plans? What are their income sources like? Do they have a pension?

Anjali: Do they have social security? Then we start getting into like get account statements and let's see how much is really there. And so at the end of the day, I can't eliminate that fear and anxiety they have. But what we can do is we can get enough information and build it into the plan so that they know if something were to happen, they have options.

Anjali: Right? That's what, that's what they want at the end of the day, is they want options and they kind of know where things land. A lot of times the stress and the tension around money is because we just don't know. So a lot of times when I talk to like a prospect on the phone for the first time, if they're thinking about becoming a client, we don't even really talk about numbers.

Anjali: I was like, just tell me like why are you here? What's stressing you out? [00:15:00] What keeps you up at night? Right. 

Anjali: So we just talk through kind of like the emotional things. What they carry in terms of like, I have all these things that I don't know if I'm doing right. 

Anjali: And after that call I'm like, how do you feel?

Anjali: And they're like, I feel a weight has been lifted. And I was like, we didn't even do anything yet. Right. And it's because the disconnect between where you need to be financially and where you are is not always as big as we perceive it. But not knowing that can create such a great deal of tension and stress. It's why people work with advisors, right? Because it helps bridge that gap so that people are aware and they know what decisions to make, and that's what it comes down to. Planning for parents is the more information you have and the more you can kind of somewhat plan around it. You can't plan for every scenario.

Anjali: It's just really impossible to do. But if you have a better sense of where their situation is at, it helps relieve some of that anxiety because you'll at least know that you can come up with a plan if need be, and you have some solid concrete numbers to work off of. 

Maggie: Yeah, all of that [00:16:00] makes a lot of sense. Really resonates. And it is, I mean, there usually is an impetus, right, of why they call you. It's not just like, I've been told to do it, so I'm finally doing it. It's like there's a reason why either the anxiety got too big, maybe you got a lump sum, you know, there's something that, that pulled that trigger.

Maggie: It's usually not just like, I, I'll, I'll do it now, you know? There's something, and so having that sigh of relief, even just saying the thing that's been living in your head, just saying it out loud sometimes is so relieving.

Dr. Barb: Yeah, for sure. and I know sometimes we say, money is just a tool, although I just said it so emotional, it's tied a lot to emotion. But you know, how do you fully understand that concept of that It's just a tool and really what helps people actually believe that 

Anjali: I mean, that's the end goal, right? The end goal is to view money purely as a tool. You've taken all the emotional burden out of it. And it's really now just a tool. And the tool is very easy to use because the tool is just numbers, numbers that you spend or [00:17:00] save, right? And so it's a lot of work to get to a place in which you can view money as a tool.

Anjali: So, as mentioned, like I grew up like I didn't realize I had money trauma until I was a young adult, and I spent many, many years in therapy to help unwind it. And even though I've done therapy for 15 plus years now I'm in my mid forties, it still will pop up once in a while, right? When things get a little too stressful, when something un unexpected happens, I can see it manifesting, which is why my husband's like.

Anjali: Call Trace, that's our financial advisor. Like, oh, okay, stressing out about money, let's call Trace and get a meeting. And I'm like, okay. Right. So I think it's not the problem around it, but the burden around it is like you end up having to do work to really unwind that. Which is hard. It's hard to do that work.

Anjali: Right. And as the advisor, I wanna be there to support them in that journey. So even someone who calls me just doing that prospect call, like I [00:18:00] acknowledge the fact that that can be very hard for people to reach out and ask for help, especially something so emotionally charged as money. So I always wanna give people grace and for some people it doesn't take that long.

Anjali: Right? They kind of are like, oh wait, I get it. Great. And other people, you know, I've been working with for 10 plus years and it'll still pop up. Right. And they're like, can we just talk? And the, the conversation is not numbers. The conversation is just like, I really wanna do this. I don't feel like I can, can you just reassure me that I can?

Anjali: And so it's like an ever evolving journey. I wish it was something where you can just check a box and be like, okay, it's a tool. Now I don't have any emotions. But it's going to pop up. And life is such in which we constantly going to have changes that have an impact on our lives financially. So whatever that emotion or kind of that underlying demon that's there is going to continue to pop up unless we figure out how we're gonna address it or how we manage it in a way that doesn't prevent us from [00:19:00] making these financial decisions.

Anjali: And unfortunately, we're not In an education system in which any financial literacy is taught. So that's one of the biggest downsides is that we don't teach financial literacy, we don't teach it to kids, we don't teach it to young adults. So you come out of college, you have your first job, and you're kind of operating in the dark, like you never understood the basics or you, what do you do?

Anjali: You look at how you were raised, how did your parents handle money, and there's nothing else there to help balance maybe a dynamic that wasn't ideal or wasn't for the best because we just don't have anything else fundamentally built into our education system. 

Dr. Barb: Amen, sister, everything you said is exactly 100%. 1000000% true and, and one that we keep preaching all the time because there is no financial literacy. We're kind of. Recreating what we saw, what we learned, and it's, you know, it's hard to change that 'cause it's woven into the fabric of our lives from so many different places.

Dr. Barb: [00:20:00] So, yeah, we have to really focus and be financially conscious when we're making good financial decisions. That's for sure.

Maggie: And it seems hard, like if, if everyone always cut their money private, you're like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do, but I'm supposed to keep it private. 

Anjali: Right. Honestly, I find that to be such a detriment is that we, we've made talking about money so taboo and it shouldn't, like, we should be more open talking about it because then we can knowledge share and like Hey, what are you doing with your money right now? Like I have some, Right. 

Anjali: So, and you know, you can kind of go out and do your research, but we are like in a, we are in a period of time where there's so much information out there.

Anjali: It can be so inundating and I wanna say like 75% of that information out there is kind of garbage, Right. 

Anjali: It's just not good information in which you need, you should be making like financial decisions that have a material impact on your life. So it's hard. Where do you go to get the information you need for yourself and your own, you know, financial picture? 

Dr. Barb: Yeah. 

Maggie: and if we talked about it more, it makes it more of that [00:21:00] tool and less of this like emotional taboo thing, you know? It's like, yeah, we'll talk about how to use a saw. We'll talk about how to use the cookie cutters and we'll talk about how to use some money. It's just another like tool in the tool book, 

Anjali: It's true, it's true. I went on a girls trip a few weeks ago and we were driving up to Palm Springs, so it's like a few hours from here. And you know, we were talking about all of our stuff, like how's our family? What fun stuff are we gonna do? And then all of a sudden my friend's like, okay, can we get into the real questions?

Anjali: And I'm like, what are those? And they're like, can you explain how our backdoor Roth works? And then my other friend's, like, what should I be doing around my business in tech? Right, and so like an hour of the conversation became that, and it was great, right? We just kind of started talking about it and even though I'm the financial expert, but then my other two friends started talking about like, Hey, have you considered doing this?

Anjali: Or like, I'm thinking about investing in this. So it's just nice to have this space in which you can like freely talk about it without that judgment or someone being like, you shouldn't disclose how much money you have or what you're doing with your money. 

Maggie: Do you also get like so excited when your [00:22:00] friends ask you these questions? 'cause 

Maggie: even when my friends do, I'm like, Ooh. I was like, don't get me started. Like. You're not gonna stop me now, but I also appreciate you kind of vulnerably sharing that. Like you still have those money traumas, anxieties that come up and it's like as much as we work through it, you know, life ebbs and flows and like it still comes up like even you as a financial advisor.

Maggie: As a business owner, like it still comes up and so it's never, I mean, for better or for worse, it's never that checked box, but it gets fewer and far between, but like, it's something we're all still working on. So it's not like a goal of perfection, it's just a goal of like a little bit better every day.

Anjali: Right. Exactly. 

Maggie: So what changes emotionally when women stop seeing money as judgment of their worth? Because man, oh man, is that something that we see very commonly?

Dr. Barb: Yeah.

Anjali: You know that one, it's so tough because there's so many elements that feed into that, right? There's like money, there's also like so much cultural stuff like I am Indian and so [00:23:00] much of like children of immigrants, their worth is based off of their status. Like, what is your job?

Anjali: What is your income? There's also like, what are your peers doing? So it's really difficult 'cause you almost have to just block out all the noise, right? Which is so hard to do because we like have to live in so society, so we can't always ignore it. But I think that's where, you know, the work I do with clients, we are really trying to align their values and goals with what's truly important.

Anjali: So it happens all the time, right? A client's like my friend is doing. Like investment and I don't wanna miss out, but it costs this much and I don't know if I can afford it. And I was like, well, let's go back to like your goals and what's really important for you. What's really important is experiences with your children, right?

Anjali: And you know, traveling and reaching financial independence before age 65. This investment will not meet any of those goals. You can do it, you don't need to do it. It doesn't have an impact. Right. So I think it's realizing that we need to like reframe and come back to like [00:24:00] what can money do for us as a person, not what the society or everyone else perceives money to be.

Anjali: And when you break it down and really focus on like what your goals and values are and how money's going to help, it's a lot easier to kind of just ignore all of that out there. I'm not gonna say it's gonna go away. It never does. I still have that even at this day. Right. But it's helpful for me to like come back and remind myself that like look like.

Anjali: What I set out to do was to build a great business but be there for my family and I'm achieving that. So yes, maybe my friend just bought a much bigger house or someone's driving a fancier car, but at the end of the day, what I set out for myself, I'm achieving. And just to be able to bring focus to that.

Anjali: So really the relationship is. I'm detail warranted. We're running all the numbers, we're doing all this stuff, but I'm like, what's really important to that person? And let's align the money with that. Because once it's aligned with that, a lot of this other stuff kind of goes away or doesn't take [00:25:00] priority or precedence as much because now you're really focusing on the life you want to live, and then you're much more laser focused on using the money to achieve those goals. 

Dr. Barb: Yeah, and wouldn't it be cool for someone just to say to their friend suggested something, I don't know if it has money or to do with, I don't know, going out, drinking or, you know, going on a, buying a big, expensive car, just having a response that says, you know what? That doesn't really align with my goals.

Dr. Barb: It'd be like. Wow, you thought about that. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, I'm adulting, I have some goals in life, you know? But really just having that one line, even if people are asking you to do something, instead of just saying no and being afraid to say no, but just saying, Hey, you know what? It just doesn't really align with the goals that I have for myself.

Anjali: And what a great way to have that conversation with your group of friends, right? To just like open that up. That we have permission to say no to things that maybe financially isn't aligned. I love that. 

Maggie: I've met a couple people who, like you can tell that they kind of think like, well, I've got this big car in [00:26:00] this big house, like, don't you think highly of me? You know, and you're just kind of like. No, like I would hate first, I would hate to clean and furnish that house. Second, like I don't need that room.

Maggie: Like it's just these things where you like when it no longer interests you, then it's very interesting when you see those people who think, oh, they're gonna think of me better 'cause I have these items. And you're like, no, I really could not care less. You know, it's just a totally different dynamic.

Dr. Barb: yeah, for sure. Because I think we have to really, as you say, think about what it is you want to spend your hard-earned money on and what's important to you and your values. And for me, cars. Mm-hmm. All I know are color of cars, I don't know, mix of cars or anything like that. Just is it gonna get me from point A to point B?

Dr. Barb: I really don't care. So a car to me is not that impressive. 'cause I always think, hmm, that's a depreciating asset the minute you pull it out. So, you know, we all have our values and our goals and for somebody else, you know, I met a woman who loves cars. She and her husband love cars. You know, they love to invest in cars.

Dr. Barb: [00:27:00] Hey, have at it, you know, it's all different. But as long as you know what your own values and goals are, is what's really the most important.

Anjali: Right. And I think it's important. To to realize the distinction between being rich versus being wealthy, right? Most people aspire to be wealthy. And wealthy doesn't mean you're just sitting on a ton of money and assets. Wealthy means that you have flexibility and financial independence, right? So if someone is buying the big house, buying the big car, great, right? But like, are they getting to that place of wealth where they have flexibility, where they have freedom? Because that now is like, I saw this on social media. That's the ultimate flex, right? It's like the person you see at like three o'clock in the afternoon.

Anjali: Going to take a workout class because they have that financial, either their independence or they have the flexibility to be able to do that. So do you wanna be the person who can do that, or do you get a lot of joy [00:28:00] having the big house in the big car? Right. There's no one size fits all. I have clients who are so adamant they wanna reach financial independence, they wanna do it by 55.

Anjali: Great. That's what we're working towards. I have other clients who are like I like designer, thinks I wanna designer budget of 50 KA year, and I really wanna do that because it's really important to me. Great. Right. We can plan for around that as long as you're clear on what brings you joy and happiness when you're spending that money or saving that money.

Anjali: Right. And once you do that, we can design the plan around any scenario that works. It's really getting to that underlying core of like what's important to that person or that couple. 

Maggie: I had love that flexibility 'cause man, there's nothing better than like, when you can just take the afternoon off and do what you wanna do or hit that workout class when nobody's out. You know, everybody and their brother's not in the grocery store and you can do your thing. And it, it's just so much more peaceful and yeah, just relaxing.

Maggie: And you're like, wow, this is, this is some serious joy right now. 

Maggie: So financial independence looks different for everyone. How do you help [00:29:00] clients then define it for themselves? 

Anjali: So really early in the relationship, usually meeting number two, we have a very heavy goals and values discussion. It's based on this advisor who's done a lot of work around life planning, George Kinder. He has three questions that he poses. So we go through those questions in detail and the questions are framed in a way in which the first question kind of is like imagining your life.

Anjali: Endless resources, what does it look like? And then each question afterward constraints it, right? They're like, now you only have five to 10 years to live. Your resources are not unlimited. And then the last question is, you find out the news that you only have 24 hours to live. So you go from this kind of very big, broad, and then those questions help people narrow down what's really important.

Anjali: And honestly, at the end of the day, the consistent thing that pops up is like. I want time with my family. I wanna have experiences, I wanna travel and because I work with a lot of physicians, you know, sometimes the question of regret does come up [00:30:00] where they're like, I don't know if I would've gone into medicine knowing that I spent so long in my education and training didn't really get to live my life.

Anjali: So that I feel like is really helpful for clients because for a lot of us, myself included. We don't spend that much time like thinking about money in terms of ourselves, right? Like we pay bills and we plan, but we're not really like looking at it from like a foundational standpoint, like what's really important?

Anjali: What do I want out of this life? What are things that I can do to achieve that? Right? So that's why I do that conversation really early in the relationship because I wanna get to know the client, I wanna figure out what's really important, because I don't wanna give advice. That's contrary to what's really important for them.

Anjali: And for them it's really eye-opening 'cause this might've been the first time they've ever thought about their life and money in that way. So that's always a really helpful exercise. And when we have clients that are going through either a major life event or a major financial event and they feel very stuck.[00:31:00] 

Anjali: We actually will do the questions again and see what comes up that time and kind of compare it to when they did it before. And a lot of times it's the same. Sometimes it's different. I was like, this is different now. Like, and they're like, oh, that's interesting. Right? And just having a little bit more clarity, I think on like the emotional side of it helps them make that decision when they might have felt stuck before. 

Dr. Barb: It is interesting that you approach it in that way and you have those questions for them, and I'm sure it takes them a while to think that through because they've probably been, never been asked those questions before, but very revealing. I'm sure

Anjali: It is. And we get a lot of different emotions, right? I we clients do it ahead of time, then they send it to us before the meeting. I tell couples do 'em separate. You can share, but do 'em separate. Don't do combine 'cause we want individual and we have a lot of clients who, you know, they'll tell me, they're like, I cried because so much came up that I didn't realize I had embedded, you know, we have other clients who are like,

Anjali: this was very easy for me 'cause I'm very clear on what I want. [00:32:00] Right. So there's such a wide spectrum and that's why the relationship with an advisor can be very vulnerable because we are getting to like very deep matters. So I always tell anyone who's interested in working with me, like at the end of the day, you have to feel comfortable and you have to trust me because it.

Anjali: Is an emotional relationship. I'm a very highly technical person. I would do all the numbers, but there is that emotional component. So if you don't feel like you have that trust, it does make that relationship not difficult, but it's just not going to get to the progress that you may want to see, especially if you feel like.

Anjali: There is something emotional there that really needs to get uncovered. And I think because I carry the money trauma and I've done so much work, I think I can recognize it pretty easily. Not everyone can and that's okay, but I think just listening is so helpful because so much comes out of just conversation.

Anjali: Sometimes it's just my clients for a couple, like talking for 20 minutes. To each other [00:33:00] arguing while I sit there and listen. I'm like, okay, let me reframe what just happened. Right? So it's, it's all these different tools that we in the advisor seat wear to just get to that level of comfort because we just want our clients to live the best lives that they possibly can.

Anjali: Right. 

Maggie: So kind of to navigate through your own money trauma. And I know you kind of mentioned like therapy and I was just kind of curious if you went to like somebody who focused in money 'cause there's all these new financial therapists and things like that. Or if you just went to like a normal therapist, just because I've seen that really come up and I know everyone has their sweet spots, so I was just kind of curious.

Anjali: Yeah, so I went to a regular therapist. It was very important for me to find someone who is a woman of color 'cause there's just a lot of things culturally. And the one where I made the most progress was an EMDR therapist. So EMDR traditionally, right, has been used to treat trauma. This is a form of trauma, right?

Anjali: Anyone who's done the therapy journey, there's so many topics that come up. [00:34:00] Everything kind of comes back to like childhood, relationship with mother, right? But. Doing all that work kind of really brought to light the fact that this underlying money trauma was always there.

Anjali: Right? And my therapist, who I still see occasionally now, she's like, isn't that interesting that this is what you chose to do for your career? And I'm a career changer. This wasn't my first career. And I was like, yes. It is, but I realized that it is very interesting. Right. But I really felt like I did CBT for a while and EMDR is really what helped me a lot.

Anjali: Now there's a new type where, and I don't know if it's new, but it's personas where you divide yourself up into your different personalities and the different traits that you carry. And then you pick the two that are in conflict with one another and they have to talk to each other. And so that one has been really interesting 

Anjali: for me because it's something different that I'm not used to because I was feeling stuck again on, on some major decision.

Anjali: And so that helped make [00:35:00] me realize, like why I felt conflicted about the decision 'cause I had two parts of myself that are equally important that were in conflict with each other, so we needed to resolve that. So I'm very pro therapy. And so I always like to like see what else is out there, right? Especially as I wanna continue to like grow and progress, especially as I get older because, you know, I'm also a mom, so I wanna make sure I'm not passing down intergenerational trauma to my child.

Anjali: I'm wanna raise her with very healthy views around money. So I realized like a lot of it is I need to do the work to make sure that I'm setting a good example for her.

Maggie: I love that and I appreciate you sharing it. Just 'cause I know there's, there's so many options out there and I know sometimes people hit roadblocks with one thing, so it's great to have these different opportunities. And so how are you kind of changing the money story for your daughter? I know, aren't you writing some children's books as well?

Anjali: Yeah, so I did write a children's book. It was my COVID project. That one was different. That one I wrote [00:36:00] about. It's called Why We Eat With Our Hands. I wrote that one as like a gift for my daughter because I realized there was like a very much a lack of South Asian representation in children's literature.

Anjali: Just like there's a lack of representation in financial planning. So I'm very committed to being vocal and putting my voice out there in communities and professions that I feel like there isn't any representation. And so I wrote the book because I wanted to explain something that, you know, south Asians do all the time, which is eating with our hands that might be misinterpreted, might have negative connotations.

Anjali: So it was actually really wonderful, because I learned why we eat with our hands, which I didn't know before. And my daughter, you know, I gave it to her as a gift to be like, you'll always have a book you can see yourself in. So, for me, I think storytelling is so important, right? Especially with children and for my daughter, right?

Anjali: There's so many books and tools out there, but what I decided was to just frame money as just like this neutral thing, right? Because I felt like in [00:37:00] my household it never was neutral. There was always something emotion tied around it. It tended to be negative. So when we talk about money, we talk about it in context of that.

Anjali: And we were financially comfortable. So when my daughter asks for something, we explain to her that like. Maybe that's something you can ask for your birthday. Like it is a little bit more expensive. Right. So maybe it's something we do and it's more special. Right. Just to give her context of what is like the parameters in the context of money. Because she goes to a private school, so she's surrounded by kids who have a plethora of money, and I want her to understand that that is not everyone and that is not our situation all the time. And then the big thing I love to do is when we're doing this right now with a lot of my clients, when kids are kind of in junior high, I really wanna start having parents emphasize the importance of financial literacy.

Anjali: So the one thing I tend to recommend is like, open up a brokerage account for your child, put in some money. Let them pick stocks, [00:38:00] Right. 

Anjali: Let them learn the value investing. And I'm like, and whatever they pick, put one position in like a Vanguard total market fund, right? So they can understand like stock picking versus an index fund.

Anjali: They can understand time value of money, how money grows. Then the next thing we do is once kids are closer to college age, I usually like to sit down with them one-on-one and we just talk financial basics, right? Things like why do we not apply for credit cards when we go to college to get a free t-shirt, right? So all of these things are like, it will ruin your credit score for such a long amount of time. We don't wanna do that, right. And it's also just helping parents build, right? And then we work with parents and the kids to help the child build their credit.

Anjali: So there's just like fundamental things you can do, and it's probably things you're already doing in your household, and it's okay to talk to your child about that. Right. Try to talk to them in a way in which it's just like. Yeah, this is money's a tool. Like I'm using it to pay the bills. We use it to do [00:39:00] this.

Anjali: It's why we have a house. Some people live in different homes, some people rent like, so it's just reframing everything to somewhat normalize it, I think helps a lot because then we're not raising our children to have an emotional trigger every time there's something money related that comes up. 

Maggie: Yeah, I love that. It's getting that happy medium of like, we have money and it's a tool. We don't have to be anxious, but also like, we can't buy everything in anything that we ever see all the time. You know, it's like how do you get, how do you get the middle there? Right. 

Anjali: Unfortunately, we're like in a very consumption society. Not all societies are like this, so it makes it hard to like teach that, that no, we don't need to just buy everything. I mean, we are guilty of it. We have Amazon packages all the time, but you know, it's just setting the example. But a book that I really like to teach kids about money is written by my friend Mac, it's called the "For Money Bearers".

Anjali: So he kind of breaks down money into like spending, saving, giving, and then investing. Right. So I think that's a really good one. I usually gift it to my friends who are having children 'cause [00:40:00] it really just like makes it very easy to understand. It normalizes it and then, but it also starts giving them a little bit of the foundation of like different ways you can use money.

Anjali: And it's not just spending money. 

Maggie: I love this. This has been a, a great conversation and there is a question we like to ask all of our guests. So, you know, from an advisor to a founder to an author and a mom, what's your personal definition of financial freedom right now?

Anjali: So right now? For me it would be capacity. I would like more time. So I'm a mom. I'm in generation, so I feel like my personal work and my business work is very overscheduled. So to me, I wanna reach a point which financial independence would be to have capacity, Right. To to have more room in my schedule, to not have to over schedule so much.

Anjali: So I'm working toward that. I'm just also in a season of my life in which it makes it very difficult, so. 

Dr. Barb: You, you sure are right in the middle of all of that. So, delegate is my [00:41:00] word. Delegate

Dr. Barb: as much as you can. This has been fantastic. You've given such great insight. Thank you for sharing your own money insecurity and your therapy and things like that because that's what we need to do is keep talking about it, right?

Dr. Barb: Even those of us who've are experts in our own areas, sometimes we're expert in our areas because we had to learn so much about it for some reason or another. Right. But this has been fantastic and can't thank you enough for coming out and sharing your story with us.

Anjali: Thank you so much for having me. 

Maggie: Of course, and until next time I hope everyone is financially fearless. Talk to you later.

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