Trial Separation & Mediation: The Divorce Wake-Up Call with Amanda Silver and Alex Howard (Dirty Laundry Podcast)

Divorce is emotional. But for many women, the financial side can be the biggest shock of all.

This week on Women & Money: The Shit We Don’t Talk About, Barbara and Maggie sit down with Alex and Amanda, divorce mediators and co-hosts of the Dirty Laundry podcast, to share the real financial realities women face during separation and divorce.  

Alex and Amanda share what they see every day behind closed doors, from hidden debt and emotional fights over “the Peloton,” to the financial wake-up calls that happen when one partner has been managing all the money. They also explain why mediation can help couples avoid high-conflict court battles, protect their finances, and create healthier co-parenting relationships moving forward.  

00:49 Meet Alex & Amanda from Dirty Laundry
05:05 Why unpaid labor matters in divorce
06:10 Trial separations explained
09:45 Can trial separations save marriages?
16:40 Why mediation works differently than court
20:00 Learning healthy conflict resolution

Alex and Amanda also remind women that even if they feel overwhelmed right now, they are capable of rebuilding financial confidence and creating a future that feels safe, secure, and fully their own. Whether you’re navigating divorce, supporting someone through it, or simply trying to understand your finances more deeply, join us for next week’s Money Talks “Protect Your Assets During a Divorce”. Click here to register for FREE and bring your questions!  

This episode is supported by Marguerita Cheng, CFP®, RICP®, CDFA®, CEO of Blue Ocean Global Wealth. Marguerita works with women navigating divorce to bring clarity, confidence, and control back into their financial lives. At Blue Ocean Global Wealth, the focus is on helping women understand their options, make informed decisions, and feel empowered about their financial future, especially during moments that feel uncertain or overwhelming. If you’re going through divorce and want support that’s clear, grounded, and centered on your long term wellbeing, you can learn more and connect with Marguerita at www.blueoceanglobalwealth.com and follow her on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and Youtube.

Disclosure:

Securities offered by Registered Representatives and Advisory products and services offered by Investment Advisory Representatives through Private Client Services, member FINRA/SIPC, and a Registered Investment Advisor. Private Client Services and Blue Ocean Global Wealth are unaffiliated entities.

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Transcript

0:00

Separation and divorce can be a wake-up call, a financial wake-up call, because they have the legal right to see everything, right? Some people decide not to go down that full financial disclosure route, but for the most part, you have to. And so in doing that, it can be a very eye-opening but scary process for women. Gloria Steinem once said, we will never solve the feminization of power until we solve the masculinity of wealth. Barbara Provost and Maggie Nielsen are the team at purse strings that will help you navigate the ins and outs of financial independence so that you can be financially fearless. This is women in money, the shit we don't talk about. I love when we have another duo with us. So today, we have Alex and Amanda. So before we dive in, let's share who you are and what you do. Well, thank you for having us. We are both divorce mediators, and we are co-hosts of the podcast, "Dirty Laundry," which is about divorce and everything else that goes along with it. Relationships, parenting, all that sort of stuff. I got into this line of work as a child of divorce, really. It's kind of an ongoing joke with my therapist that I just want to save everyone from a childhood of really, really bad divorce and bad co-parenting. So that's kind of the lens with which I look at it. But ultimately, yeah, as mediators, we're trying to keep people out of court, keep folks out of high-cost, high-conflict litigation, and just offer up a better way. So that's a little bit about us. Yeah. And provide a little bit of levity and humor- Mm-hmm along the way with our show. So- Yeah... We need some humor with divorce. Right? We do. Hard enough. We really do. It's hard enough, yeah. Alex, can I ask you how old you were when your parents got divorced? I was eight years old. Oh, so you know how to pack a good overnight bag, a good weekend bag. Yeah, I feel like there's a generation of us who know how to pack for Wednesday night and every other weekends. You know? Like, we know how to pack a bag. Sounds like you know firsthand. Yeah. Yeah. know it was a little later in life. But yeah that and my friends, like, I mean, a lot of us had divorced parents, so it was like, "No, I'm..." You know, "Are you at your mom's? Are you at your dad's?" Like, "Can we hang out or not?" Like, Yeah. It's nice when you can do it when, like, your cohort, your friends those around you are in a similar vibe. I was the first of my friends, and that was so novel and I carried a lot of stigma around, so that's part of this whole thing. The more we can lift the veil and just destigmatize this whole thing. I mean, relationships end. It's hard, it's awful, but, like, let's do it a better way and let's not ostracize those that are going through it, because you never know. I was definitely, yeah, one of the last kids, and so then it was like, "Yeah, we all know what this is like. " Welcome," you know?"Welcome to the party." Exactly. So do you have, like, a story or a moment that really opened your eyes on how messy money can get in divorce?

'Cause this is Women & Money: 2:56

The Sh*t We Don't Talk About. So let's get into the messy things first. Love it. So let's talk about that sh*t. Yes. We can see a messy side when they come into our offices and they are now dividing up their finances. And in traditional marriages when, let's say, traditionally the husband was in charge of the money and the wife was in charge of the kids, when it comes time to separation, they don't always see everything. So that can be quite eye-opening. But in terms of messiness, I always talk about my Peloton story because and I think every family has this Peloton. For some it's a toaster. Yeah. But it's basically, it's something that you attach emotional value to that has, that's greater than the monetary value. So, for example, I had clients who they were arguing over the Peloton, and they spent more of my services, like more on my fees, than the Peloton was worth. And even when I pointed that out to them, it didn't really matter because it had an emotional value. And so I try to caution people when they are entering this process to really look at it from sort of a more bird's-eye view and not get so stuck on those emotionally valued items. You know, aside from children, of course, but inanimate i- objects that can be replaced. Yeah. I know so many people who just use their Peloton to, like, hang their clothes on, so shout out to both of them using the Peloton. Like No, you use a big screen to hang your nice clothes over the Peloton. Yeah. The emotional entanglements- Yeah ... to finances is something that is not unique in divorce. I have never had a single case where someone did not get emotional instantly upon speaking about finances. And a lot of it comes back to we don't value home domestic labor in the same way we value external work. And so what you're left with is typically, again, in a heteronormative man and wife sort of situation, is you see the man working, you see the woman staying at home, and then all of a sudden on divorce, it's like, "Oh, I get half of everything'cause that's what the law says? But wait." And so there is this such an emotional tanglement with that division of labor that's now being sort of, like, it's come to the, its reckoning point where you're like, "Yeah, yeah. No, I actually do get something from this marriage because I actually did put in countless unpaid hours." So again, we're making large brush strokes, but I would say that's pretty typical to what we see. Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And we always talk about how it's not just the time you spent at home working, which is great and helpful for the family, but it's like you can't just go,"Go get a job." Like, I'm gonna go back. I haven't worked in 10 years. Like, it's not just like stepping back into $100,000 role which we just, "Just go get a job." You know? It's not like that. And so it's has to be kinda even in that sense as well, which I'm sure you guys see. And that's where we talk about alimony or spousal support as we call it, and that's sort of where that comes in. Because you can't expect someone who's been out of the workforce and who has sacrificed... It's also about the sacrifice, right? They've sacrificed so much employment opportunities so that, let's say, their husband could go and ex- you know, rise the la- the corporate ladder to raise a family and to have the children and to be home. So you can't expect a woman to just flick a switch and have an established career like that. We are amazing, but I mean, ...we can't, we can't do all that. Like, come Yeah. There are still limitations. Yeah. It takes time. And so I've heard you guys talk about this trial separation for broken marriages. Can you share a bit about this idea, what it entails, all the good stuff? I love a trial separation because you can actually put in place some of the decisions before locking into them. So for example, you come up with an interim parenting plan. So again, going back to our very traditional couple over here that we alluded to earlier, where the woman was maybe not as experienced in finances, the man was maybe not as experienced in childcare. And so if a man, if a dad, if, again, in this broad strokes approach, we are talking about a dad who has been very hands-off, a trial separation, an interim parenting plan means go have at her. You want 50% of child time? Love that. Support that. Don't want to take the kids from their dad. Put your money where your mouth is. Let's see if you can do it. Let's see if you can attend appointments and follow up with teachers and make sure homework is being done. Like, there is so much minutiae, but really, really important aspects of parenting. And I have seen, I have to say, 'cause I don't want this to be a sh*t on dad episodes, I have watched so many rise to the challenge and become the dads that maybe they were held back in their traditional marriage from being. So it's not all a bad thing, but what it means is you get to have a bit of a dress rehearsal before you really put ink to paper and finalize things. You get a bit of a trial run. And from the relationship component too. You know, before making something that's very permanent- Yes ... like going down the road of divorce, a trial separation really helps you decide, is this something that I-- do I wanna live without this person, right? Yeah. Or do I wanna make that relationship work? So it gives them the time that they need to not make rash decisions, but, like, think about it and make an informed decision. Yeah. So would you say this is still like-- Like, what's kind of the length of time here?'Cause it sounds like you're still renting a new place, you're furnishing it. I mean, you're taking big steps. The only reason I'm disagreeing and pushing back- Yeah ... a little bit is just because of the costs associated. So I think typically more what we see is someone moving down to the basement, for example. And that would be, like, step one of a trial separation. Let's see what it's like to not be in the same space, to not share a bed, to, "Okay, I'm gonna go close my door," and you're in charge of bath and kids and dinner and whatever. So you have the safety of, and still the comfort of your own home. You have the you're offering your children this sense of security. Nothing in their life has really changed, 'cause kids don't really realize if one parent moves to the basement or is sleeping, so, "Oh, I'm not feeling well," or what- I mean, you can kind of, Depending on their age. Yeah. Fair, fair, fair. For sure. Point, fair. Yeah. Yeah. But it's a bit more of a gradual thing, and I think, again, just because of the rising costs of living, it's really hard to be like, Yeah. I'm gonna go get an apartment, and furnish it, and move out, and be paying for two places." And ultimately, that's gonna be the reality if you do go through with your divorce. So a good opportunity to see what budgeting looks like and what the cost of living on a you know, single income, et cetera, looks like. But I think, Yeah. if folks are considering it, if you have the luxury in your own space of doing that, of separating physically but maintaining your home, because there's going to be such a financial burden. Divorce not only costs a lot to actually do the divorce, but then you're running two households, often on the same income you had during your marriage when you were running one. So there's a lot to consider. It's something you don't wanna rush into, it does take a significant amount of time to really get into the new routine, to really test out what a trial separation looks like. So don't do it for six weeks then be like, "Well, this isn't working. Let's- No ... quit." It's like do take the time. Do take the time. Yeah, Okay do you guys have any insight of success or kind of results that you've seen from that? Do you see more people kind of be like,"Yeah, we wanna stay separated," or more people being like, "Actually, I didn't realize how much you did for all of us"? It is a good question. Do I see reconciliation? I have seen that. I think that time, that trial time gives you time to process and get the clarity. I always feel like you can't have that clarity until you six months, a year, sometimes longer down the road. You can't be expected to see like you will be in, in that time. So I think that it really offers you that time to really think about what you want and maybe it is a reconciliation. We have seen that. I had one actually early on in my career which was so interesting,'cause I was like, "Oh, this is cool." Like I didn't expect this in my practice. But they had done a trial separation. They were physically separated but in the same matrimonial home. And again, the, they developed this parenting plan and all of a sudden the wife was like, "Oh, I'm getting the help I need." They were in conversation with me, which is not therapeutic to be clear. Mediation is not therapy. But it is very... Like you have your ability to voice your concerns, to state your needs, to air your grievances. And so they were in this format whereby they could have open conversations with one another guided by a third party and the result was, "Oh, we just really were lacking in communication. We just really didn't understand- Yeah ... what the other was going through and now we do. And in doing this interim parenting plan, we've learned that like, yeah, we're both capable. We both need time off of parenting and we both can do the job." So one was able to pull back, one was able to step in, and all of a sudden there was more balance. And I mean, that was six years ago and I've never heard from them since so I'm gonna just hope that they're still together. Yeah. So it does happen. It does happen. Relationships are hard and a lot of people, like we don't learn how to communicate. We don't learn in school how to do our taxes and manage a budget anymore, right? We just take all these things for granted until we're in crisis and then we're so quick to pull the plug. And so, you know, some folks go to couples counseling, some people do a trial separation. It's whatever makes sense in your relationship. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And it is kind of like you're focused on so many things, and I kind of think you lose focus on the relationship. And we have seen people either, once you really see what the partner is doing, or we've seen people meet with, like, a CDFA, and once they both understand their finances, they're like, "Oh, that was our only problem." Like it is that communication and just understanding their point of view and just taking some time for that. Not always, but sometimes, yeah. Yeah, not always. I will say on the flip side, I've never met a divorced person who regrets their divorce either. That's true. I have yet to. Take with that what you will. Exactly. And that could be because of the process or there's all kinds of reasons for that. But so far I have yet to encounter that. where do you see women getting the most blindsided financially kind of in this legal process? So we're talking about traditional marriages where one person is sort of in charge of the finances and the other person does more of the parenting. In those situations, separation and divorce can be a wake-up call, a financial wake-up call, because they have the legal right to see everything, right? Some people decide not to go down that full financial disclosure route, but for the most part, you have to. And so in doing that, it can be a very eye-opening but scary process for women. So for example, if you've never seen a property tax bill or a hydro bill, or you don't know anything about your investments or your debt, it can be quite intimidating to take that on. And so we walk them through it. We work also with financial analysts that we might pair up with someone to, like, actually translate it all into understandable language. But sometimes people are caught off guard, women especially, about their financial circumstance. Maybe they thought that they had more than they did. Like, their family was spending, their family was living a lifestyle that maybe they actually couldn't afford, or they were living off of debt. And so when that realization comes that this is actually the financial picture, and now we have to divide that up, it can be quite enlightening. Yeah. That's such a great point. If you are living, for example, in a beautiful home and everything is... You know, you assume, "Well, I'll get half of this home. That's loads of money. I can make it on my own." And then you realize your house is mortgaged to the tits- Yeah. there's no equity, and you're actually walking away with nothing. That, I think, is the biggest eye-opener. And it's not specifically women, though again, in these more traditional kind of roles, it does happen more often, I would say, to women. But we see people trying to buy each other out of their homes, and it's like,"Oh, no, we have to sell it. We have to put it on the market." Yeah ... And then you're stuck with, " Well, this is a terrible market right now. We don't wanna sell, but we have no choice." Like, it's- Right ... it, there's a lot of steps of like, "Ugh, damn it. Oh, no, not this too." Mm-hmm."Oh, crap, I forgot about that." So it's really like in terms of the, how we support our clients, it is either pairing them up with de- you know, depending on their sort of financial acumen, somebody who could maybe do a lot more hand-holding. But a lot of it, at least certainly the way I practice, is let's just do it piece by piece, because nobody can handle that much. Like, whether it's to make a decision, to learn a whole new language of money and numbers, to do your budget. So I really try and break it down for them. But think for the most part, people have, like, a tertiary understanding about their financial portfolio, and for the most part, we're all so busy with jobs or raising kids or the news, which is heartbreaking at, on a good day, that- Some things kind of fall by the wayside, and then in divorce, you are forced to look at everything. You have no choice, and that can be really, really, really tough at a time when you're also emotionally trampled while trying to go through all of this. So it's not easy. It's not easy. If, again, not to go back to a trial separation, but if folks are thinking about it, if you have listeners that are considering divorce or just divorce curious, go talk to a financial advisor. Start to gather things. And if you have to do it in, not a sneaky way- No, no ... but not announcing to your partner, but start getting- Ask questions ... go to your bank, talk to the manager, get an idea about what you're actually looking at, especially things like the equity in your home if you own a home, because that is typically where most people are spending the majority of their money to maintain their home, and that's what they're hoping to get out of the relationship. So I would start there for certain. Let's take a quick pause to hear from this week's episode sponsor. Divorce can shake your confidence, not just emotionally, but financially, and in those moments, you deserve a guidance that brings clarity instead of fear. Hi, I'm Marguerita Cheng, certified Financial Planner, retirement income certified professional, certified Divorce Financial Analyst, and CEO of Blue Ocean Global Wealth. I help women going through divorce gain clarity, confidence, and control over their personal finances so they can make decisions that truly support their future. At Blue Ocean Global Wealth, we focus on financial planning first because accessing competent ethical advice. Should not depend on the size of your investment portfolio. Every woman deserves to feel financially confident, empowered, and resilient, especially during a life transition as significant as divorce. Visit blue Ocean global wealth.com to learn more about how financial planning can help you navigate divorce with greater clarity and peace of mind. Now back to our show. Yeah. Homes are a big asset, and we have seen people who didn't know there's, like, a second lien on the house or something of that nature. But yeah, it's just gathering that information right away because the timing's impossible to time your divorce with the market with everything else, with kids getting back into school or whatever it may be. I mean, it's impossible, literally. And so you're working with the best that you got. But gathering that information is so essential, and we tell women that all the time. I mean, it's information that you should know, no matter if you think you wanna get divorced or not, right? It's just in case your partner dies, it's important to know or anything like that. And so both of you are mediators, which is very different than going kind of the legal route of divorce. So can you share a little bit more, like, why people might choose mediation, what this process kind of looks like?'Cause yeah, it's very different, and I feel like everyone always goes, "I'm gonna get divorced. I'm gonna go to an attorney." Exactly. And there's a time and place- Yes ... for attorneys, right? And so we often work in conjunction with them, but we are sort of doing the brunt of it, right? Yeah. So we're doing the heavy lifting, exactly. And one reason why people choose, often choose mediation over going the, like legal negotiation, litigation route is the cost. So our services are significantly less than hiring a lawyer. If you do hire a lawyer and then decide to go towards a court involvement, you're looking at potentially six figures, right? And that is not something to, to laugh at. So the cost is one reason. What's another one? Well, I was gonna say, even just on the topic of our last conversation, one of the things I really pride myself in as a mediator is creativity. So you've got this home. Okay, it's not worth as much as you thought it was. What are some creative out-of-the-box solutions other than just one of you buys the other out or you put it on the open market? Sorry, so sad. You know, what are you gonna do? Mm-hmm. What about renting it out? Is there an ability to create a basement apartment? Is there-- You know, you both move out and you rent it until the market is better. Now you're shared on title still. Is that appropriate for your relationship? You know, there's lots to consider, but there are so many creative solutions. Mm-hmm. And I find typically when you go to a lawyer, an attorney, it's really more black and white. It's really quite just like, "Well, this is what the law says, so here's what we're gonna do." Whereas we kind of play in the sandbox of the law saying, "Here's what at minimum we're gonna have to do, but let's think about what we could do." And if you have a couple that's still really willing to work together, and this is again where I really advocate for the children, what's in the best interest of the kids? For you to sell this asset, which could go up $100,000 by next year when the markets are better and there's not a war? Or do you need to sell it today and invest that money into something and rent a place? Do you need to buy a place straight away? Well, it's not a good time to sell, but it could actually be a good time to buy, so what does that look like? So really having those fulsome conversations, and as Amanda said, because we cost less per hour, and because that cost is shared between the two parties, so we're really 50%, we can take the time to really get a good sense of what do these people actually need? What do their children need? What do they need for retirement? What do they need for tomorrow? And help them wrap their heads around it so that they're truly able to make an informed decision. Because w- as mediators, we put the onus on the couple. They're making the choices for their family. This is not-- We don't act as an arbitrator, as a judge, saying,"Here's what we've decided is appropriate for you guys." We're saying, "You decide. You know what's best for your family. You know what you need. How can we support that?" So that's kind of why I'm extremely passionate about it. It is much more cost-effective, it's much more time-efficient, and it puts the power into the people, into the divorcing parties, as opposed to a third party exterior. It also teaches them how to handle conflict. So if you have two lawyers who are adversarial, if you have a conflict, what do you do? I'm calling my lawyer, they're gonna write a, an expensive letter or they're gonna put in something to the court. That's how conflict is dealt with. That's not how we handle it, right? We are teaching our parent that we're working with how to handle conflict now, but also how to handle it five years from now. Future. Right? So it doesn't have to escalate, and that to me is an invaluable part of mediation, is learning that, okay, we have an issue. These are the remedies that we have in place to, to deal with them, and then if we don't, what happens? So just that education, that learning that-- It's a new relationship that you're building, right? So whatever, how con- however contentious the marriage was or the breakup was, if you have kids, you now need to co-parent in some capacity, and you're gonna have to get along for s- for the purposes of raising those kids. Yeah. You move from a romantic partnership to a business partnership. You're in the business of raising your children. And so if we can teach you the skills to support that so you don't need to keep engaging, so you don't need to keep going to your lawyer, so you don't need to keep going to court that's really the gift that keeps on giving. And we love to set a good example for our children. I mean, that shows a great way of like," Your dad and I can even communicate. You and your brother can communicate," whatever it may be. Like, we can all communicate. But also, I mean, yeah, when they keep ri- I mean, I've seen those couples that just, "I'm gonna go to my lawyer." I'm like, wow, you guys are just ranking up fees all the time. Like, you must have a lot of disposable income if that's all going to the attorney. And can I be your attorney? Right? I love when I have couples that just... Well, they'll threaten that. You know, things aren't going their way."I'm going to court." Yeah. And I go, "Okay, that's so great. So instead of us planning for your children's university or college, we could just hand that money over to your lawyer so they could pay for their kids' university or college. That's a great strategy. Like, come on, people. And I know it's emotional. I totally- It's the emotional-... empathize ... part of it. And- But that's where We get to be the experts to say, "You know, here's your reality check. Here's what this really looks like. Plus, you're going to court in two years, so in the interim, let's, like, keep working together," you know? Right. You can just keep going. Right. Exactly. And so how many, like, hours would you say people kind of spend with you? Like, I mean, to get to court it takes, like, two years, you're saying. So it sounds like it's much quicker with you. And then who else do you have on your team when you go through mediation, as we love a team questions. We love a team. We love a team. We saw that on your website, and I was like- Yeah ... "Oh, yeah. These are our girls." They have a roster. These are our gals. Team-wise, we have mortgage specialists, we have real estate agents, we have therapists- Yeah ... we have family lawyers, we have financial analysts. So all of these people that we can bring in if they're needed. And in terms of timeline- Well, I was gonna say, and all that specialize, that niche out to divorce. Yes. So your financial analyst is divorce-specific. Your mortgage broker is divorce-specific so that they can get you a mortgage without a signed separation agreement, right? So we really build a team that are so niched to specifically divorce because it's too much. It's too much. the loans in divorce for a house, so nuanced. I'm like, wow, The more you learn- the less you know. It's so true. That's such a great line. Where are you living? Let's go. So true. I love it. Yeah. I would say my average files are, like, 25 hours.. Yeah. So- That's with kids. That is with children. With children, yeah. Yeah. That's, that adds a whole new complexity, right? Your separation agreement is basically 50% parenting plan and then 50% financials. So if you don't have the kids, obviously it's much more expedient. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And so if we get through the process, and now we're talking about women navigating life post-divorce, how do you suggest to rebuilding kind of that self-trust around, you know, spending habits and anything else kind of just going on in life? You always were capable. Yeah. But that's what I wanna tell women, is that even if someone, maybe it was your former partner, told you weren't or told you you spent too much or didn't know anything about money, that's bullsh*t. You're a capable woman and you can figure it out and do it your, yourself. And that's sort of the message that I want women to walk away with, and it's often the message that I will tell my clients. Yes, it's overwhelming. It seems overwhelming right now. It seems like it's insurmountable. How are you gonna manage budgeting and paying your taxes and paying your bills? But women have done it before, they're doing it now, and you will get through it too. Yeah, Yeah, I love that. I feel like we've already touched on a lot of great topics so far. Is there anything that we haven't touched on that you want to make sure our audience knows about in the divorce process or just the mediation process in particular? I think don't be afraid to reach out to professionals because you cannot do it alone, and just because your neighbor went through it or your best friend went through it and you're like, "Oh, well, I have all the support I need because they went through it too," it's not the same as hiring an expert. It's just not, because we might give you alternatives that you, just like Alex was saying about the house, that you might not have thought of. And so the creativity that we bring to the table is really unique. And so don't do it alone. Don't... You know, and really watch where you get your information from. Make sure it's vetted. Make sure it's an expert, and their mother is going to have an opinion about your divorce, so be careful who you listen to. Yeah. And a social media page that's all about this- Yeah. that may not be grounded in anything factual. Just be, yeah. Yeah. Build a team. I think you, you hit the nail on the head with the last question. Divorce touches, I think, literally every industry. Like, if you look at how many decisions are involved- Oh my gosh ... in ending a marriage and disentangling a partnership, it touches everything. And so you can't possibly be an expert in everything. And don't expect if you're hiring only a lawyer that they're gonna be the experts in everything. Mm-hmm. Don't expect that if you go to a therapist that they're gonna be an expert in your finances. Like, you do need a whole team. And to be clear, I know that there are so many barriers to entry. Experts cost you a lot of money. you've gotta think long term, because the mistakes you make today could actually cost you so much more in the future. It's worth the investment of building out your team, ensuring people that are really, really experts in that field have your back, because you could spend your lifetime trying to learn all of this and still not know, because you're still emotionally entangled in these decisions. So yeah. I really want to empower- your listeners to say, yes, A, you can do it, and B, the way you do it is information gathering. Go get those financial statements, go talk to people, go ask those questions. Do not feel ashamed if you don't know, because you don't know. And that's okay. You can't live in the past going, "Oh, if only." All you can do is what's best for you tomorrow. And so first step is get that information, get a sense of what this looks like, and then take a step forward. Yeah, I love that. And when I say, yeah, lawyers,, they're great at the law. They're great at the law, you know? But we all have our strong suits, and that's why we hire a trainer at the gym, and that's why then we hire a nutritionist, right? You know, and then you have your doctor. They all do different things, and they work really nicely together. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So after everything you've seen, what does financial freedom look like for you and look like for women coming out of divorce? Yeah. I love that. I see like my clients a year later or six months later, just down the road, having that autonomy, that financial autonomy of like, if I wanna take a trip or if I wanna take a loan or if I wanna pay for something, I get to decide that. And that financial freedom for some women who have been in financially controlling relationships, which we know there are lots of, can be completely, you know, just... transformational. It really is. Yeah. It really is, is making those decisions yourself, even if they're not the best decisions, even if you need to bring in a financial expert to help you. But it's your choice. Yeah. I think financial freedom, really it's the freedom part that I wanna hone in on, because what it looks like is you don't have to run things by someone again. And most of us got married really, really young, right?'Cause you are told you have to if you wanna procreate, you gotta start young. And so we don't even really have a sense of our finances when we're getting married, and then we're expected to, after years of partnership, sometimes decades and years of,"Okay, you got that, I got this." Like, you have to divide and conquer 'cause there's too much. It's too much for people. And so you set yourselves up for this, and then trying to walk it back afterwards is so tricky. It's so tricky. But yeah, that financial freedom of I wanna paint my walls. I wanna like, I wanna go on a trip. It's so ma- and it's not all great. I, I wanna take it a loan or I wanna go back to school. These things cost money also. And you might have to make sacrifices. Indeed. Absolutely. You might not have the same- Standard of living ... standard of living with two incomes and one. That might come from sacrifices, but these are still decisions that you get to make. Yeah. And I think that's it. What do you want? Like, so I always make my clients write a letter to their future self as if it's today. Like, "Dear Alex, today I woke up and I looked out my window at the beautiful lake," or whatever, right? Like, imagine what your life looks like because then you can work back from that. If it's not like a palatial escape in Tuscany, well then we don't need to be trying to get that much money for you. If it's just freedom, if it's just autonomy and you just want your own space to feel safe and secure and raise your kids, well then that's very different. So let's work on a budget. What does that life look like? What's that gonna cost you? Do you need to go back to work? What's that gonna cost you to go back to school, to take a lower paying job? There, you have to factor all of it in, and I think if you can begin to imagine what your life looks like post-divorce, then you can actually design that life through the process of getting divorced. I love that. I don't think enough people even sit and just think of what they want their life to look like. So taking that time, taking that moment, and man, just living alone sometimes, I could just be in a square box and just be just fine. I know. Sometimes I think back to, like, my first apartment after university and, like, eating ramen and on some used futon. I'm like, "Oh, that was a good time." It was a great time in my life. You don't need a lot of money all the time to feel rich in your own way. And so if people wanna work with you both, definitely they can tune in to the Dirty Laundry Divorce podcast. What are other great ways they can connect with you, work with you, all those good things? So because we're in Canada, our mediation services are really mostly for Canadian, but we do a lot of divorce coaching. Yeah. So if you need someone to answer those questions that you don't wanna ask your lawyer, not legal advice, but legal information come to us. We can be your cheerleaders. We also can help communicate with your ex-spouse if you want us to write emails or filter through texts or filter through emails. That's a big component of what we do as well. But you can reach us on our website, so midtownmediation.com and foresttownmediation.com. You can reach us there and also just reach out through the pod. Yeah. DM us. We're happy to answer questions, connect, phone, set up a call, whatever you need. Awesome. Reading through those texts, how juicy. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's, those are fun to filter. Yeah. Let me get in there. I know, right? I think there's, like, a little bit of like, masochism in this job too- Yeah ... to, like- Screw that person. Yes. Let's learn all the dirty laundry, but let's support it so the kids don't ever know- Yes ... and aren't impacted by it. Yes. Well, thank You both for coming on today and sharing your expertise, bringing this great energy to divorce, as I know it's not always a fun process, but having great people on your team like you both, having these creative ideas, it can really be a game changer. And I'm still just kinda stuck on the fact that you haven't had anyone who's gotten divorced and regretted it. So just something to think about. So yeah, thank you both, and until next time, be financially fearless You've been listening to Women Money, the shit we don't talk about. Now it's time to take what you've learned and make bold moves towards financial independence. Stay in the know by joining our newsletter for exclusive tools, resources, and updates that keep you financially fearless. Head to PurseStrings. co and sign up today. Need a financial professional who gets it? Turn to PurseStrings Curated Directory, your go to resource for financial experts who know how to put you first. Love this episode? 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