What Widowhood Taught Me About Money, Loss, and Starting Over

Grief and money can't be separated. It's like a lava lamp, you cannot separate it out.

Meet Kathi Balasek, the Founder of Grief-Ready Communication for Financial Professionals, Firms, and Leaders. She helps advisors and organizations build the communication skills needed to support clients through loss, transition, and life-altering moments to strengthening trust, retention, and long-term relationships in the process.

In this episode, we sit down with Kathi for one of the most powerful conversations we have ever had on this show. We talk about the financial rules nobody tells widows, like the fact that remarrying before 60 means losing your late spouse's Social Security forever. We talk about why widows are rushed into decisions that don't need to be made that first year. And we talk about what to say and what to stop saying to the grieving people in your life.

This one is for every woman who wants to be more financially prepared, more empathetically equipped, and more honest about the conversations we are all too afraid to start.

Do not wait until you need this information to find it. Join us for our next Money Talks session, "The Financial Checklist Every Woman Needs Before Losing a Partner" Click here to register for FREE and bring your questions! 

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• Wings of Widows
• Widow 411

Want to take this conversation one step further? Join us for our next Money Talks, a free 30 minute live session where we’ll dig into a question we hear all the time from women business owners: Budgeting for Businesses to Offer Benefits. Click here to register for FREE and bring your questions! 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Dr. Barb: There's many things that, you know, when we talk about women and money, the sh*t we don't talk about. There's other things we don't talk about as well. Like you've mentioned it yesterday when we were talking, you know, death, sex, politics

Maggie: We're talking about it now though.

Dr. Barb: We are, and one thing we really wanna dig into here is the whole idea of grief.

Dr. Barb: Those who are grieving, typically we're focusing on widows. I don't know if people know this, but the [00:00:30] average age of a widow is 59, much younger than typically most people would guess. And as the population is aging, we're gonna see a lot more grief a lot more widows, a lot more women who are st- stepping into their own finance- finances and financial future because they've lost their male spouse

Maggie: It's gonna come for all of us, and I think a big conversation is having conversations early before you need it about finances, [00:01:00] about wishes, about things like that. I don't know if I told you this, that the other day when I was talking to my dad he's like, "Oh, I've got something I've gotta tell you.

Maggie: I don't know how you're gonna feel about it." Oh, God, here we go. It c- it could be anything under the moon. He's like, "I decided I'm gonna go with a green burial." I was like, "Well, I'm not surprised on this." He's like, "They just lay down some cloth, and I found a place, and I've talked to them." And I was like, "I [00:01:30] love that I don't have to make this decision, 'cause I know that's what you want, but I don't wanna do the research.

Maggie: I don't wanna find the place. I don't wanna do the things." I was like, "So are you gonna put that, like, in writing, like in your will, trust, something like that?" He's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna schedule a meeting and sit down with them."

Dr. Barb: Wonderful

Maggie: Lord, praise the Lord. My God. And I was like, "This is the best conversation I've had."

Maggie: But I was like, I don't know. [00:02:00] It's nice that they're, it's being taken care of, and I just know that grieving process might be a little bit easier because I don't have to do the research. It's decided and paid for. So but it, it made me laugh knowing that we were gonna come to this conversation talking about kind of widowhood and grieving and things like that, and we always say, like, have these conversations, have your estate plan, talk about your finances, you know, and how the conversations might be difficult but they don't always have to be.

Maggie: I mean, again, I [00:02:30] talk always about do it on a casual Wednesday. This was just on a regular Monday. And I was like, "All right, great," you know? And I kinda asked, like, what was the impetus of this? And he had a neighbor who was, like, 88 who just passed away within a week. You know, he got sick real fast and passed away, and I was like not great, but, like, I'm glad we have an impetus to keep moving and to keep going forward.

Maggie: And it's weird being excited about these things. But having that all prepared then just allows you to [00:03:00] grieve, I feel like, at that time

Dr. Barb: Absolutely. I mean, that's a gift, right? It's a gift that, you know, your dad'll have all that taken care of, paid for, so you don't have to think through that, where a lot of people would never have that conversation or make those decisions or whatever. And it's so important, right? It's important because we need to understand how to help support one another and not run from it.

Dr. Barb: I had a dear friend who just lost her mother, and although I haven't talked to this friend in a long [00:03:30] time, we were really close, and I knew her mother well, and I loved her mother, and her mother just always, when I think of her, had the biggest smile on her face. And, you know, I just got a card, and I just was telling her how I was so sad to hear about her mom, and gosh, every time I think about her big smile on her face, and how she always made me feel so engaged and warm and welcomed into her family, you know?

Dr. Barb: And it's so sincere and so [00:04:00] true. And I know that conversation touched her, because she texted me late at night and said, "I just have to tell you, I loved the card. I loved that." You know, it's kind of like we went back, right, to when we were roommates and we knew each other's families so well.

Dr. Barb: Of course, our lives have moved on, but we were bound together at that time. We knew each other's parents. And, you know, when you have a friend who's lost her mom with Mother's Day coming up, you know, it's really a tough time. And I think just continuing [00:04:30] to reach out, talk about the stories, what you remember, is just so heartfelt.

Dr. Barb: And until you've gone through it and lost someone really close to you, and you see the people who show up for you, it's just, it's amazing.

Maggie: Yeah. It really is. And so I'm excited to have this conversation with Kathi because the biggest takeaway for me, which I always want a refresher, is like how to be kind of that best person for somebody else when they're grieving. 'Cause it's uncomfortable, but as uncomfortable it [00:05:00] might be for me, it's nowhere near the heart of the loss it is for them, you know?

Maggie: And so just showing up for them and learning better ways to show up and be how she talks about grief-ready communication and really just be there for others is, We love to celebrate with people, but we also have to be there when the times are low, and this really can deepen a relationship. So should we get started?

Dr. Barb: Let's do it.

[00:05:30] 

Maggie: Welcome to Women and Money, the sh*t we don't talk [00:06:00] about. I am excited to share your story with our audience. And so before we dive in today, can you share a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Kathi: Thank you, Maggie and Barb, for having me on today. Yes. My name's Kathi Balasek, and what I do is I train professionals in grief-ready communication. And my background is in education but my lived experience as a widow [00:06:30] really has formulated a path forward to not only help people who are in grief, but help the professionals who serve them with a language, that lands.

Kathi: My life is beautiful. I had the fairy tale, and I met a wonderful man John. We had five kids. 

Maggie: Five? 

Kathi: Yes, five children. it's this side of [00:07:00] nuts, I'll just tell you. And a diagnosis changed our life. We were in our 30s, and he got diagnosed with brain cancer and, he made it five years past that, and then he died.

Kathi: So I was a caregiver and a widow at a very young age, and it really changed how I view life and love and how I wanna live. You know, he didn't teach me how to die. He taught me how to live. And [00:07:30] so I knew at some point in my career that I would wanna shift and do something meaningful with my experience.

Kathi: So that's my background. I was a teacher at the university. I trained teachers. And so I've had a beautiful career, but I decided to sidestep and be an entrepreneur and really train something that is deeply meaningful and mission-based because I believe that grief and loss[00:08:00] and widowhood, they're financial.

Kathi: It's like a lava lamp. You cannot separate it out. It ebbs and flows, and it's been over 20 years since I've lost John, and every decision, every financial decision has some of that grief and loss in the background.

Kathi: And so I am on a mission to really help people, help professionals start talking about these things [00:08:30] so that they can move forward with confidence and clarity and not sever relationships, both personal and professional, and live their best life.

Dr. Barb: ha- I have a ton of questions.

Maggie: yeah. And I'm excited to have you on, as I think, you know, when you lose someone, it's such a hard conversation for people to have. None of us are like, well-equipped to have it. I know I'm not. Like, you know, you always don't wanna say the wrong thing, but you wanna be careful and caring, and so there's a lot of moving [00:09:00] parts.

Maggie: But that example of a lava lamp, just like, I think about how there's the small bubbles, things come and go, but sometimes there's, like, a big clump, you know that kinda comes up, too. And so it's, it really is. You know, it's... You know, grief comes in waves, right? And you never know when it might hit or how big it might come, and so I just see those little bubbles in the lava lamp.

Maggie: And so before we kinda get into the work that you do now, I kinda wanna start, you know, with your story of being a wife to a caregiver to a widow before 40. [00:09:30] That's a lot to hold. So can you take us back to some important moments on your journey and what kind of shifted for you financially?

Kathi: You know, I look back at that time now and it was a blur. I mean, I think I spent a year in bed. I mean, I would get up, I'd get every kid to be where they needed to be, and I'd go back and I'd go back in bed for five or six hours, set an alarm and get back up. I mean, I was barely functioning and yet I had people to help [00:10:00] me.

Kathi: My, my family, I mean, my parents are rock stars. They basically moved from Montana to help me and help me with the kids and... But here's the thing about widowhood is that first and second year, they're brutal. I've always been confident. I've always been a leader. Not during that time. It takes your self-worth, your confidence.

Kathi: You feel like you're picked [00:10:30] last on a team, naked and afraid on a high bar, you know? It's unbelievable how it messes with your mindset and fear, uncertainty, and I think a lot of people don't give others going through grief that grace. And when I started to figure out, you know, I remember my mom saying at one point, [00:11:00] she's like, you know, this was after about a month or two, she says, "Kathi, he's not coming back."

Kathi: Brutal, sobering, but I needed to hear it. Your kids lost one parent, they can't lose another, and you need to get up, whatever that getting up looks like, but you have to do it. And it really was a turning point in me I stopped to avoid. I'm very passionate about this time in my life,

Kathi: ' cause it takes me back [00:11:30] emotionally.

Kathi: But I had to get square with the girl in the mirror, and the money Makes things real. You know, you play pretend a lot. I went to Hawaii that first year by myself. People would ask me, you know, I'd be out on an excursion boat, they're like, "Where's your husband?" I'm like, "Oh, he was tired. He's back at the hotel sleeping."

Kathi: I became a big fat fibber [00:12:00] because it was more comforting and easy to say that than to tell my sad story and... But the money makes it real, and you have to get square with that. And I had to go take that first step back into my financial advisor's office and start handling things

Kathi: because I learned nobody else can do it.

Kathi: But there's great people to help. [00:12:30] People want to support you, and that was pivotal, and I think that was a shift. And then the other shift at that point was during that first year, at the end of that first year I decided to go back to school. I had taken a leave of absence when I was caregiving for him, and you realize the finances.

Kathi: And it's like I needed better insurance.

Kathi: [00:13:00] I needed full-time, a full-time job. And so I decided to go back to the university and teach in higher ed. And so that was a huge pivotal point where I had to start advocating for myself

Dr. Barb: So I have some questions about that Can you share a little bit about where you were financially in terms of what you knew was going on in your finances in the family, how either covered you were insurance-wise, [00:13:30] financial-wise, and five children. What were their age ranges?

Kathi: I'll start with the kids. Their age ranges were 4, 6, 12, 16, and 18. And, you know, that was a lot. I mean, I hear friends of mine at that time, they're like, "Oh, I've gotta take my kids to two schools." I'm like, "You know what? You're not gonna win that game, so let's not compare." And [00:14:00] financially and insurance, my husband was a FedEx pilot, so I never call him my late husband because you don't wanna be late you're an airline pilot.

Kathi: And we had great insurance, but his insurance didn't cover me after that. I had a year 

Kathi: with COBRA, 

Kathi: And so-- and I had taken a leave from my teaching position during caregiving, so I knew I had that. He had a small life [00:14:30] insurance, a policy that covered me and the five kids. And so I think back at that time and now, it really paid for all six of us to get college degrees,

Kathi: me included.

Kathi: So I, I spent a lot of that money on my next phase and going back to school. So I knew I had to have money that would supplement that. And I also had a [00:15:00] pension from his work, FedEx, which grateful I had a spousal income benefit for life.

Kathi: However, this is where money gets in your head because with many pensions I can keep this pension for life unless I marry again.

Dr. Barb: Can you say that again?

Kathi: I can [00:15:30] keep this pension for life unless I get remarried

Kathi: And so you look at where we are today in this world, and basically the world is telling me that, you know, "We want you to move forward, okay? We want all widows to move forward, but not really with your life."

Kathi: And, you know, a pension and a life benefit and the [00:16:00] cost of caregiving and the longevity for women and all of those things, they need to be weighed into this.

Kathi: So some of these decisions are not just emotional. You know, my own happiness, you know, I wanna be married again. It's not the best financial decision for me

Kathi: as women, and this is a rule for men, too. It [00:16:30] seems very, controlled, limited, and honestly a little bit discriminated against.

Kathi: It's like the government or systems, " We want you to get better, but, mm, not really."

Kathi: So these types of limitations, and there's several limitations. I mean, how many doctors offices do you have to go in and check the widow box? We're done, okay? They send the message that you [00:17:00] as a widowed person are controlled by money a little bit, are less than, let's put you on the bargain bin.

Kathi: Let's, you know, we have to justify things, and it can really mess with your money mindset and who you are as a person. And this is stuff that they don't tell you.

Kathi: You know? And when you're widowed, [00:17:30] remarriage has financial stipulations, you know? You can't remarry before 60 or you lose his Social Security forever.

Kathi: Nobody ever told me that.

Kathi: You know, this is something that people don't know. When the average age of widows is 59, you can imagine they're still working. 

Kathi: They have kids at home, kids in college retirement issues. [00:18:00] You know, just filling out a FAFSA if you are solo versus remarried changes the numbers. 

Kathi: So there's a lot of rules inside and out financially that can harm you if you don't know what you're doing and you don't have a professional that can help you

Dr. Barb: And did you have a good financial professional who knew these nuances? Okay, good. So you didn't fall into any traps or like uh-ohs? 

Kathi: I didn't fall into that, [00:18:30] and was very supportive and he was a family friend. He was best friends with my husband growing up. 

Dr. Barb: Okay 

Kathi: but as I've learned more and in this, in the business that I do We all have more to learn. We all have more to learn to support people who are going through grief and learning this language because, I mean, grief is a universal experience, but it's not a universal language.

Kathi: [00:19:00] And, you know, if grief were a sport, we'd all be world-class athletes because we're either grieving, we know somebody who is grieving, or will be grieving.

Kathi: And that's why, as a professional, having my background and then my lived experience Changing how we have these conversations with [00:19:30] our families, with our loved ones, with professionals, has value well beyond the numbers, well beyond the relationship, because we live in a very grief illiterate society.

Kathi: We don't wanna talk about it, right? I mean, I am like the turd in the punch bowl. It's like I know how to clear a room. I make people awkward when they know my [00:20:00] story.

Dr. Barb: Interesting. 

Kathi: What most people do is they don't tell their story because they don't wanna, you know, be the buzzkill in the group.

Kathi: It's very isolating for widows, for grieving people, for people going through caregiving, and yet there's so many things that people can do in a compassionate and empathetic way to help them feel included, to help them feel a [00:20:30] part of their story,

Kathi: to engage, because we don't know what to say, right?

Dr. Barb: Yeah. So we can learn from you. So let's dive into that. You know, if someone's in an early stage of loss or transition how does one person, first of all, help support them? And what's something, like a small step they can take to feel more in control as well?

Kathi: Number one [00:21:00] is we all know how this movie ends for all of us, Right

Kathi: So We're not good at this skill. It is a skill. Let go of what you said in the past. Who cares? You know? Today, find one person that maybe needs your E game. Give them some empathy.

Kathi: You know? Just one person today. And I think some rules of thumb here [00:21:30] are just reach out.

Kathi: "I'm thinking about you. This must be difficult. I was thinking about John the other day, and I'm really missing him." You know, I get a lot of that right now that's so comforting. I mean, this was over 20 years ago, but my youngest son, Jesse, is now a pilot, 

Dr. Barb: Oh, wow 

Kathi: it's just bittersweet. And so, so many people reached out and told me what that meant to them, having known John.

Kathi: [00:22:00] Those things matter. The stories matter Something that's really important is invite their story to the table.

Kathi: Even if it makes us all very awkward and nervous we're gonna make her cry or make him cry. 

Kathi: Invite that story. Something happened to me at Jesse's wedding this summer. He married the cutest little gal, and she's a nurse.

Kathi: She's a NICU [00:22:30] nurse. And she just holds the babies all night. It's so cute. But anyway, we were at the wedding, and around the table everybody starts asking about proposals, how they got proposed to. And I'm like, "Oh, okay. They'll get to me, and this'll be the end." I'm like, "Okay, maybe it's time for me to get a beverage." honestly, somebody said, "Kathi, how did John propose to you?" It was [00:23:00] like I get to tell my story

Kathi: because the end of a life didn't end a relationship, and this is part of my story. And I don't think we invite those stories enough, and that's where connection lives. That's where trust is built the quickest.

Kathi: And in the end, those are the stories that matter.

Dr. Barb: Mm-hmm.

Kathi: And so to invite the story, say the person's name. Don't be afraid that you're gonna [00:23:30] say it wrong or awkwardly and have these Bambi moments, you know? just the fact that you put forth some effort matters, and it opens the conversation to better conversations, and pretty soon they're not awkward anymore.

Maggie: I think that's interesting how you kind of mentioned that people might avoid the conversation 'cause it might make the person cry, you know? And there's nothing wrong with that, you know? And it's not like [00:24:00] you're smashing on the person to make them cry. You know what I mean? It's just interesting 'cause I think a lot of people then they're like, "Well, that's uncomfortable."

Maggie: But we're still grieving, but we still gotta say their name and share their stories, like you've been saying. And I, you know, it's, you know, kind of changing those messages of like, men don't cry. Like, no, men can cry. We can all cry. And crying's not bad, you know? We still have those points, like in that lava lamp, where that grief will come up and, you know, emotions will be there.

Maggie: But that doesn't mean we should avoid the whole thing altogether.

Kathi: [00:24:30] Exactly. What happens is, I mean, we can talk ourselves out of a lot of things. And, you know, it just taking that first step because in where we are in this world right now, I don't know if you're living under a rock or whatever, but there's a lot of sad and loneliness and uncertainty going on right now.

Kathi: And You know, cheering it up. " You're so resilient." You know, find the silver [00:25:00] linings, you know. We are culturally conditioned to cheer people up, but you need to meet them in the mud. That's, like, a quote from Brene Brown. You know, meet them where they are and stop trying to... You can't cheer grief away, and we don't clearly understand what grief is and what grief isn't.

Kathi: Whenever there is a change, there is a letting go or [00:25:30] a loss, and wherever there is that, there's grief, and it doesn't matter if it's death or non-death related. And so we disenfranchise people's right to grieve by saying things like, you know, "Wow I would have thought you'd have been through that by now."

Kathi: Well, there's no stages of grief. Okay? They'll say, "Were you close?" As if, you know, you weren't close to that person or [00:26:00] not. And I'll hear people say, well, you know, when a spouse dies, "Well, I didn't even think they had that great of a marriage before." And they just say things trying to... Because our beautiful little brains, we try to quantify things because what we're hearing and witnessing is incredibly sad.

Kathi: So quantifying this, we try to justify, [00:26:30] rationalize. They're like, "Oh, you're young. You'll meet somebody new." You know? It's like, I'm not camping out at the courthouse lawn waiting for a new divorcee to walk out. 

Maggie: You're not?

Kathi: you know. So we say things based on, you know, their age. "Well, how old were they? Were you close?"

Kathi: To try to quantify really how unfair this is in people's lives. So people mean well, [00:27:00] but to avoid those statements is the first change that needs to be made of really stop quantifying and justifying and cheering it up. And then my last fa-fan favorite is comparative suffering. Like, your loss is bigger than mine.

Kathi: Mine is bigger than yours. You know, and we do that a lot, and we do it as a defense mechanism.

Kathi: But grief is as unique as your [00:27:30] fingerprint, and that one is not more severe than somebody else's. The only grief that matters is their grief, the person right in front of you who needs your compassion and empathy and words.

Dr. Barb: Well, and I'm glad we're having this conversation on the sh*t we don't talk about because just like grief and money, you know, those are conversations that people feel awkward diving into. But if we don't [00:28:00] have them unpack it a little bit, just start talking about it and learning from one another about how can we best have these conversations so that...

Dr. Barb: You know, the population is aging. We're gonna see a lot of grieving widows and grieving families, and we need to be able to respect that and support those people and be there for them, you know, in a way. And sometimes I think people don't wanna say anything because it makes them feel uncomfortable more than the [00:28:30] person who's grieving.

Dr. Barb: You know? Like, "I feel awkward. I'm uncomfortable. I don't wanna talk about it." But it's not about you , you know? It's about the person who's grieving

Kathi: Exactly. You know, and when things are hard and sad and we go inward. That's a normal response to protect ourselves, 

Kathi: okay? There shouldn't be any guilt there, but we do go there. And so to really learn to practice how to be present,[00:29:00] words that keep you present, and to focus on them, and this is a skill, and a practiced, learned skill, and then it starts to become automatic. Because- The reality is it's gonna happen to all of us. And women, you know, 80% of men die married. Mm-hmm. And so it will be the last woman standing. It's not fair to either [00:29:30] genders, but that is the reality, and to start having these conversations before with the people that you care about.

Kathi: Because, you know, I talk to my kids about life, about what I want. I talk to my young married kids about what conversations they need to be having now. It's at, like, date night, 12 date nights a year, and here's your agenda. And it's [00:30:00] all financially related because they need to have them. It's like the fire drill.

Kathi: You have to practice this before.

Dr. Barb: Right. 

Kathi: okay? And you have to have them now. And so every family needs to start planting these seeds because whether your children or your loved ones, whoever you are in charge of, your legacy down the road, start planting seeds because they might not be ready to talk [00:30:30] about it, but they're listening.

Kathi: I mean, I've told this story before, but it's a favorite story to me because I was talking to Jesse. I don't know what it is about Jesse's stories, but there's something about the baby of the family, you know? Yeah, I know, right? But I told him, I said, "You know, I really..." We were talking about favorite songs, and I said, "Well, one of my favorite songs is John Denver's Sunshine on My Shoulders, and I want it to be played at my service, [00:31:00] and I want my service to be a party." And he's like, "I don't think I know that song." So anyway I said, "Well, I really want it to be like this," and I started going a little bit further with what I wanted after I'm gone, and you could tell he'd had enough, okay? I planted the seed, but he'd had enough, so, you know, don't try to drive that hammer.

Kathi: And anyway, a few days later, I get home from work, and he's a piano player. You can guess what song [00:31:30] he's playing on the piano. You know, so they're hearing, and they're listening, and having these conversations and knowing how to have them, when to stop, is key. I mean, we're not blindsiding Nana at the Thanksgiving Day table, you 

Maggie: come on, Kathi. You're no fun 

Kathi: you know, it's not a matter of convenience. It's a matter of preparing. Letting people know this is why we wanna talk about it, putting it [00:32:00] on the calendar, and actually having a conversation that might not get results the first one. It might be a series of conversation.

Kathi: And families don't wanna do that.

Kathi: People don't know how to do it, and that's why I've built these skills

Maggie: Do you feel you know, with John's having, like, cancer and having a little bit more time than just like, you know, dropping of a heart attack or a sudden incident, do you feel like you were [00:32:30] able to have some more of those conversations before he passed to kind of know what those wishes were and to transfer things over?

Maggie: And even though they were a bit faster than we might have these conversations with others, do you feel like you, you had some of more of that time to, to get in those questions?

Kathi: I did. Really good question, Maggie. I had more time. We talked about these things, but I really was that traditional, didn't talk about long-term finances. You know, many women, I [00:33:00] mean, they are great at money. We know how to save, spend, and stretch a dollar, but not many of us were in the long-term finance conversation, and including me.

Kathi: And it forced me quickly. I mean, I got a crash course very quickly prior, and that was helpful. But widowhood, when it happens, no amount of experience [00:33:30] is gonna prepare you for the volume of tasks that have to be made, and there's a real rush and pressure that doesn't need to be there that first year because very few decisions need to be made that first year.

Kathi: And it's more of organizing, finding, filling out a few forms, opening up options. And everybody wants you [00:34:00] to get better quick, and they want your sadness to go away, people and professionals included. And so there is this subliminal rush and get it done, but my advice is to not and to really pace that year out because many financial decisions

Kathi: are not reversible.

Kathi: And, you know, widows [00:34:30] make some poor decisions, and the research says the house is a big one. They make housing decisions too soon. they are the purse for everyone, 

Kathi: you know, but what people don't realize and they'll say, "Oh, it's just retail therapy." Well, it's real- that's really condescending because being the purse and spending and giving, that money represents the ultimate loss.

Kathi: [00:35:00] Why would I not wanna get rid of it? I don't like it. I don't want it. Get it out of here. That is a normal response,

Kathi: and when you think, when you go deeper into, like, the housing decision, you know, should they keep it, should they sell it, refinance, redecorate, you know, downsize, whatever, it's bigger than that.

Kathi: Maybe they no longer feel safe in that home alone. [00:35:30] Maybe the spouse died in that home.

Kathi: Maybe their children were raised in this home. it goes so much deeper and it's back to that lava lamp. Grief and money can't be separated, and so to really understand the emotions that are driving some of these choices is vital.

Maggie: Yeah. We hear a lot about, yeah, just making decisions when your emotions are increased is a lot. And not only are [00:36:00] you managing your own emotions and your own grief, you're helping five children go through that, which is unchartered territory. And, you know, everyone's got their own lava lamp that they're, you know, trying to work through.

Maggie: And so it's a lot to manage your own and to help others as well. So those big decisions, we've just gotta kind of wait and put them on hold and not let people rush us. But also know, you know, have those good people in our corner, like our, you know, good advisors who can say, "Okay, these things actually do need to be done now or in the next three months, and [00:36:30] these things we can wait, we can hold off too."

Maggie: You know, because there, there is a bit of both, right? And so looking back, like, what do you wish you knew about money before your whole world changed?

Kathi: I wish I understood more of the long-term finances. I didn't know anything about that, and I wish I would have. I wish I would've understood it more. I wish I would have taken a more active role and in the [00:37:00] long-term finances, I wish I would've understood more about insurance my options, you know.

Kathi: I mean, I made silly mistakes back then, you know. I mean, when a widow walks onto a car lot, you can basically finish that sentence. You know, I overpaid, didn't know, bought the extended warranty. I mean, you know, the car was cashmere in color. That was the name, so in all fairness, that, But I [00:37:30] made a lot of stupid mistakes because I didn't understand debt.

Kathi: I didn't understand compounding interest. I didn't understand opportunities for me financially. And I had a lot of guilt about that for a while, and shame, and you're embarrassed to admit it.

Kathi: You're embarrassed to ask for it. And anytime you bring it up, it's so tied with the [00:38:00] emotions of loss, you're like, " I'm not taking that hit today," you know?

Kathi: So you just wake up another day and wake up another day. And if I could give advice to any young person, couple, start having these date night conversations. Get great insurance, health insurance, life insurance, know about long-term care insurance. Really [00:38:30] put yourself in the driver's seat and find great professionals.

Kathi: And really great resources too. You know, if you're a brand-new widow, there's resources out there for you that do a great job. I mean, I have three that, you know, I know personally. I respect them. I mean, Modern Widows Club, Wings of Widows, Widowhood 411. I know them personally. They have great tools for you, not only in your widowhood [00:39:00] journey emotionally, socially, physically, et cetera, but financial resources also for you.

Kathi: I don't know where I'd be without a great counselor

Kathi: going through loss a family that supported me and loved me professionals that helped me step forward when forward was a puzzle that I didn't even have the picture on the [00:39:30] box. And I'm extremely grateful 'cause you can't do it alone

Maggie: Yeah. I think it's really interesting is 40 is kind of that, I feel like, where people get more in focus of retirement and more it's like, "Ah, it's coming more clear. I can see it more down the pipeline." But before that, it seems so distant. But things like this can really speed up that timeline and make you realize, like, now is a good day to get started.

Maggie: Even though it seems so far out, you don't know what your timeline is, right? [00:40:00] And so you might be planning to 102, but you don't know the world's plan for you. And so it's it's interesting and another reason why it's so important to get started, not just, you know, make the most of your compound interest, but, like, why you need to be part of the conversation so early on because you just don't know what the journey holds

Kathi: Exactly. And, you know, it's back to that denial, you know? There's very few things that are for sure.[00:40:30] 

Kathi: Death is one of them. And the way that loss and money can really affect relationships makes it so worthy of conversations because relationships are shaped differently after a loss. Your friendships, your social circle, your in-laws, it's different, and it's not [00:41:00] gonna be the same.

Kathi: But the conversations while it's shaping matter.

Kathi: And talking about hard things is one thing. Delaying talking about it just makes it worse.

Maggie: And so kind of with the work that you do now, what's like a piece or two of advice you would give to, people if they've, you know, work with coworkers who's [00:41:30] lost a loved one or a boss who's, you know, become a widow or even, you know, just a friend? What are some, you know, pieces of advice you might give?

Kathi: again, we can talk ourselves out of a lot of things. And then we're like, "Oh, should I call? Should I text? Should I email? Should I go on social media?" Stop that. Just do one thing. Pick a mode of communication and reach out Tell them you care. Tell them you're there for them. Use the person's name [00:42:00] in the sentence.

Kathi: Tell them what that person meant to you. If you didn't know the person, tell that person what your colleague always said about that person. You know? Give a story, give a context, and then finish with, "I will reach out again. I will stay in touch." You open an invite. You've gotta break that ice.

Kathi: You know, [00:42:30] when I'm calling somebody for the first time, and even in my experience in my teaching, it's still...

Kathi: I gotta get in my head to call somebody when I know this is a very fragile scenario, and it's usually, you know, "Hi, Randy. I wanted to call you and say that I'm heartbroken about the death of your mother. You know, I loved Virginia. She was wit smart, [00:43:00] and her humor was on point. I was thinking about when we were at X together," whatever.

Kathi: " I wanted you to hear my voice. I wanted to tell you what she meant to me, and that I'm thinking about you. I will reach out in a week or two." Done. You know? And you keep reaching out. You text somebody, "Just thinking about you today. I know it's the anniversary of his loss, and I'm thinking of you."

Kathi: [00:43:30] Or somebody who lost their mother. I mean, we are headed to the mother of all mothers in May, right? That is so hard for anybody who has lost their mother.

Kathi: What an opportunity to reach out.

Kathi: You know, it's been over two decades since I've had this loss. My life is rich, fulfilling, wonderful, [00:44:00] but when somebody says his name and that they are thinking about him, it's like whipped cream on my heart.

Kathi: It just is. It just is like, wow. You know, we need a whole worldwide huddle around people showing empathy in the everyday. That's what matters, and empathy is [00:44:30] the biggest buy one, get one. The more you give, the more you feel great about what you just did, and It's joy-giving.

Kathi: That's what I want for this world.

Kathi: I teach grief literacy. It is the love language that I want the world to start using.

Maggie: I'm touched. It's great. It's good stuff. I mean, and you're right about all of it and yeah. And I think it is that keep reaching out is, you know, I've heard from some widows who, [00:45:00] you know, a year later everyone seems to have moved on. But you haven't, you know, which is totally fair. And so, you know, you do have to keep reaching out and keeping that conversation alive

Kathi: I, it's really important because moved on and moved forward are two unique things, 

Kathi: and when there's no timeline of grief, and everybody grieves uniquely we use a lot of moved on [00:45:30] language that isn't always supportive. And when you love there's a depth, and the depth you love will be the depth you grieve.

Kathi: And so you don't ever get through it, get on, move past it. You learn to grow around it.

Kathi: And [00:46:00] that's a myth of getting through it, moving on, that is not supportive, and it really doesn't align with how grief works. 

Kathi: I mean, they always say, you know, grief and love are sisters or brothers. That's why the language is important.

Kathi: I mean, language can cut like a knife,

Kathi: but in grief it can cut like a machete, [00:46:30] and it's really important to know exactly what to say and not say to grow a relationship.

Dr. Barb: Yeah. All good, amazing pieces of advice, and for us to listen to your wisdom all that you've learned and experienced. So I so appreciate you sharing your story with us. And, you know, I think about this last question that we ask everyone, and coming from someone that's lost your husband so young with five children, [00:47:00] you know, what does financial freedom, what does that mean to you now?

Dr. Barb: I mean, based on everything that you've been through. So what does that mean to be financially free, financially fearless?

Kathi: Financially free and financially fearless for me means that I'm in the driver's seat, and I have a lot of choices in front of me, and I'm the [00:47:30] one who's going to do my homework, trust people who are way smarter than me to make the best decision for me and my family because I believe I'm in a lane all by myself, and that's what I've learned.

Maggie: Kathi's got the wheel. She's ready to drive I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your story and sharing your wisdom [00:48:00] as this is sh*t people don't talk about, people don't wanna talk about, but I think is so needed. And you're absolutely right when it's gonna hit all of us, so we have to be there to be those supporting around others.

Maggie: So we appreciate it, and I wanna make sure, like, your link to your website and all your resources are in the show notes as well so people can reach out and connect with you and continue the conversation. So yeah, we thank you for sharing your expertise

Kathi: Barb and Maggie, it has been a joy. Thank you so much for inviting me into your [00:48:30] world, and I just wanna say that I'm in awe of what you do, what you've built, and I'm grateful. And you're really making an impact for women, so Thank you. 

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