A Queer Understanding
Weekly conversations about all things queer. A space for members of the LGBTQIA+ community to share our stories, struggles, and triumphs, and talk about how we're breaking glass ceilings and making an impact on society.
A Queer Understanding
Dr. Angelica & Cassy: A Year of Queer Marriage, Pt. 1
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Navigating the inaugural year of marriage is no small feat, and Cassy and I are thrilled to share our journey with you, alongside the insights of Rahim Thawer, a social worker and psychotherapist who's no stranger to the dance of queer partnerships. Season 5 opens up with the lush tale of our dreamy beach wedding, the leaps we've taken in our careers, and a family reunion in Jamaica that was nothing short of a cultural embrace. With each challenge and celebration, we've discovered new depths of support and growth, and we can't wait for you to join us in unwrapping these moments of connection and courage.
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Reflections on a Year of Marriage
Speaker 1Welcome back everybody. This is our first episode of season four and we are kicking it off a little differently. We are here with one of our favorite guests, raheem Thower. For people who listen regularly, they may remember last season we talked with him and he had a little mini wound up not unintentionally having a little mini-session with us. We'll let Raheem go over his background really quickly. We wanted to have him back to do a kickoff for season four and a year in reviews, since Cassie and I have been married now for a little bit over a year. So we'll just see how this goes. Rahim, tell the folks, remind everybody who you are, please, amazing, thank you.
Speaker 2I'm Rahim Thawar. My pronouns are he and him. Remind everybody who you are, please. Amazing, thank you. I'm Rahim Fowler. My pronouns are he and him. I'm a social worker and a psychotherapist. I'm based in Toronto. I'm happy to be here. I'm honored that you I'm one of your favorites and that you called me back. That's great, yeah, so I guess I'm in the driver's seat today, even though it's your podcast, and I think queer relationships, to start us off, are beautiful. I love queer love and I also often think that queer people are faced with unique struggles and that we bring a lot of innovation to our relationships. Sometimes they look similar to our cis and hetero counterparts and sometimes they don't right. I'm curious to know, to start us off, as you both reflect on your last year together and married. You've known each other for longer, but what would each person say is the highlight of the first year of marriage?
Speaker 1Oh wow, Highlight.
Speaker 3Is it that difficult to identify the highlight?
Speaker 1Pick one. There's lots of good things that have happened in our first year of marriage, not the least of which being the fabulous wedding that we had in St Simon's in Georgia. We both wanted a beach wedding. We had family and friends come and it was amazing. It was really amazing. Outside of that, we got a lot of good things happen that we have. I don't know if she's my good luck charm, I'm hers or both, but a lot of good things have happened. We have moved to Atlanta from Memphis. I changed jobs and got a promotion. She got a promotion from Memphis.
Speaker 3I changed jobs and got a promotion. She got a promotion. A lot of good things that have been. You know we've been traveling a lot and being all over the place and for me the highlight for the first year was to take her to Jamaica, to my home country, and introduce her to my family back home and just to see how they embraced her.
Speaker 1It wasn't just me. My mom and my dad and my middle sister came my baby sister's in germany, so she couldn't make it, so it's like a little family reunion yes, it was a lot of people.
Speaker 3There were music, they actually killed a goat to welcome them to the family. It was, it was. It was really cool to have them to have their family meeting my family in Jamaica that they haven't met, that she hasn't met before. So that was one of the biggest moments, I would say, since we got married, from my point of view.
Speaker 2Yeah, thanks for sharing that. It sounds so beautiful to hear how there's something, there's a ritual that's culturally specific to you, that your family's engaged in to celebrate your union, and to me that sounds like a kind of acceptance that lots of people only dream of. So congratulations on that first year. How would you say? You support each other's growth, or you've learned to support each other's growth over the last year?
Speaker 1I don't think it's been a learning thing. It's something that came naturally to both of us. I've always felt she's definitely my biggest cheerleader. She always has support, she always encourages me, she always talks me up to other people when I'm a little more reserved and I'm like Angelica, she's like this is my wife, Dr Thompson, she's da-da-da-da-da it. And I'm like on Angelica, she's like this is my wife, Dr Thompson, she's da-da-da-da-da it's earned. And there it is again.
Speaker 3Yes, it's earned. It's earned. It wasn't given. It was earned. A lot of late nights, a lot of hard work and dedication.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1So, and whatever I want, if I have an idea and I think about doing something, exploring something that's my passion, she's always like do it, what can I do to support you? I can help you in this way. That way I can talk to these people. She has a helping and a caring spirit in herself that really has always. She thinks more. I've said before I don't know if I've ever said it to her, but I've said it to other people that she has more faith in me than I do in myself and my ability to do the accomplished things.
Speaker 3So it's great, and so for me is thank you. Those words were kind, but for me she's more of an introvert, I'm more of a. I want to get out there, I want to be around everybody, I want to do community service work and all of that. And what I've seen from her over the years is that she came out of her shell per se. She, you know, even if she don't always want to go, she come and she participated.
Speaker 3I remember I took her to an event and we were putting knowledge in on a playground and I took some pictures and I posted them and her mom was quite shocked and she was like angelica would never do anything like that before. I was that. She was like is that really my daughter out there doing that? So you know, she she has been very supportive and also very motivating, like when I was in school and I was writing a paper and I was like, man, I can't do this. I was getting really frustrated and she was like, just do it. She's like it's almost done. And then you know she was a college professor. So of course she took my paper and she marked it up and made me see it, but then I went up in it and then she pretty much said okay, it's good enough, you know so you've said a couple things that I want to highlight because I think they're really powerful strengths.
Speaker 2One is that Angelica didn't have some of the same interests as you or the same tendency in terms of her personality, but there's a kind of safety I think you provide that made her want to try something outside of her comfort zone, and that's really lovely, right?
Speaker 2It shows me that different personalities can change slowly, when the time is right and it makes sense and it's meaningful to the other person. The other thing that I'm really appreciating in this conversation is this like she marked my paper up, you know, it's really really hard to receive feedback from anybody, and we can often feel criticized by the people that are closest to us, and so there's something that's developed in your dynamic which allows you to receive feedback and know that it's coming from a good place, a supportive place, even if it doesn't necessarily feel good in the beginning, right? So those two things are really beautiful. I'm curious to know, because we're talking a bit about personalities you named things that have a lot to do with change how do you each respond to life change or big life transitions? Has there been differences in how you each approach that?
Speaker 3yes, very much. So I am like all I describe it. I'm like the type of person who just jump off the deep end and be like, okay, well, if for for the moment, type of person. When there's, when there are changes, I'm like, all right, this, I don't want this and this what I want, which is not always a good thing, because it sometimes put us in a situation that's not all because the best, but overall, I'm always open to changes because I'm that type of person that I left Jamaica to live in Minnesota in February yeah, so in the February 2008. So changes in changing the environment in the environment is not bad for me, but what I have to and I'm still learning how to deal with is not just make quick decisions because of my emotions. So that's something that I'm working on. When it comes to changes, yes, I agree with that.
Speaker 1We both are open to change. I am a Navy brat. We moved every three years. I like to explore, I'm adventurous, but because part of my work is part of who I am, I'm a researcher. That's what I do, and I want to research everything as much as possible, gather all the information, think about it and then maybe go back and research some more. So she's more spontaneous and I'm more methodical. And responding to Jane, one big thing that I noticed about her in general she has a very laid-back personality, but when things aren't going the way that she thinks they should go, then sometimes she freaks out, and that happened when we moved here.
Speaker 1When we moved to Atlanta, we had bought our house almost exactly a year before and they put us up in corporate housing. We were getting married one month later. So I was like I don't want to deal with moving before the wedding and the honeymoon. So they put us up in corporate housing for some months, gave us time to find a place that we wanted here in Atlanta have the wedding, have the honeymoon. But when we got here, the place that they put us up in was not as advertised and she went into.
Speaker 1I would say, protective mode of this is not what you said. My wife's not living here, I'm not living here, this place is dirty, da-da-da-da-da-da. And so she actually had them put us up in a hotel. She's like I'm not even staying here tonight. So we went and stayed in a hotel and, uh, until I had another place for us and she just got instant anxiety. She was like this whole thing was a mistake. We never should have moved. And da da, da, da da. And I was like it's okay, they're going to work it out, they're going to figure it out.
Speaker 2it's only a couple days in the hotel, it will be fine, it's okay if I'm hearing this right, cassie was the protector, but also the person who's willing to take risk and also the first to panic in some instances. Yes, definitely.
Speaker 3Okay okay, okay.
Decision Making
Speaker 2So I was listening to this description the move and the house not being up to your expectations and it seems like Cassie was really good at taking a risk, making a big decision. She's really good at the boss and part of her panics at times, and so, angelica, you're thankful that she can take the leap. And then you're there to see it through in a way where you're like, okay, you did a good thing, you helped us put things in order, and now it's your turn to take a seat back and I'm going to make sure it goes better, moving forward, I'll help. You got us on the track, I'm going to make sure we stay on it and we'll figure it out together. So that seems like a really nice balance of the two of you. I want to come back to something you had said, angelica, about being a researcher and that being part of your identity. I want to know everything, and what you connected that to is really needing to make a very informed decision. Yes, and I'm wondering, cassie, for you, when does that scare you?
Speaker 3It scares me when I see it's time to just make a move. But we gotta wait for all the research to get done. And, as she mentioned, I'm a very spontaneous person sometimes. Not that it's not a good thing, but sometimes I can be like okay, we're not at work, you're not vp, dr thompson, today you are my wife, so let's just go for it because it could be simple. Sometimes we're going out to dinner and she needs to research the menu and everything before we go. When we're going on vacation, it's okay. Everything got to be researched. You got to know all of that, which is fine. You got to research some stuff. But I like to be. I like to get there not knowing what I'm going to expect.
Speaker 1Sometimes so if we're going to jamaica, that's fine, if it's not you know it's not fine.
Speaker 3She's still gonna do research and tell me what you think is a base option no, not for the activities, but for the flight and the accommodation.
Speaker 1A hundred percent. I'm making sure we get the best flight cheap, but it also makes sense as far as layovers and things like that. And then the accommodations, like where do we need to be, what's centrally located, costs and everything so and okay, so I know what's central there yeah, I actually was like what, what part of town should we be in? But then I'm looking at all the airbnbs and looking at the reviews and look at the pictures and all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2Angelica being the researcher and being informed and planning. I'm wondering if that brings you joy or is it a way to manage anxiety?
Speaker 1or is it a way to manage anxiety? In and of itself, it does not bring me joy. I would love it if someone else was as thorough as I am and then just did that. I don't feel that it doesn't. I'm not like, oh, I'm happy looking up all this stuff, but nobody else is gonna do it.
Speaker 1And in my family, what we do we do every other year we do family trips. I'm the one who plans all of that because they just trust that I'm going to make the best decision based on all the information I gather. So it brings me joy in the sense of I know that a good decision has been made based on all the information that you could get not all of which you could possibly ever get, but decent amount of information. I'm making an informed decision. That makes me comfortable. But the activity in and of itself is time consuming and it's a little bit stressful because you have to check multiple things and multiple actions, and so it takes a lot of time actually to do that. So I don't. So the activity in and of itself does not bring me joy.
Speaker 3Let's just say she's a family manager.
Speaker 2Okay, yes, yes. So I'm seeing that, like there's a project management skill you bring to some of your relationships and I'm still curious about its function when you say you know someone else does, it won't be good enough. In a way, I think you get something out of that role, though you know you're not willing to say it brings you joy, but you're not willing to let it go either. So that's not a critique, I'm just putting it on the table as something to reflect on. Yeah, I'm curious for you as a person who's more spontaneous. When is that? When has that really served you? When has that been really good for you?
Navigating Boundaries and Buyer's Remorse
Speaker 3the research now, are you being sponsored? Oh, maybe it's sponsored. So every time, like, for example, if I want to just go and have a good time and I just like, okay, I'm just gonna go, I feel like I'll have a better time right, and then being spontaneous, when even taking risk at work, I realize that sometimes just going out on a limb, it always serves me well. I'm not sure if it's luck or what it is, but I always say that when I'm, I think I'm at my best self.
Speaker 3When it's not planned, like if I'm supposed to give a speech right now and it's planned and I have to look over it and can't look over it. It's like I feel the same as just walking up there and just start speaking from my heart. So you know, I feel like being spontaneous always works out. I'm better. Feel the same as just walking up there and just start speaking from my heart. So you know, I feel like being spontaneous always works out. I'm better.
Speaker 2I'm at my best self when I'm spontaneous okay, and while I've got you cassie, do you think your spontaneity ever gets in the way of something or it doesn't serve you?
Speaker 3yes help me a bit about that yes, so so we end up, and I was so spontaneous about purchasing something, a big purchase, and you know I end up regretting a lot.
Speaker 1I wish I didn't do it because she was operating off of emotion yeah and that emotion affected me.
Speaker 1I expressed reservations about doing it, but it was that she was so emotionally invested in doing it that it affected how we like she's not happy, and when she's not happy about something, she's not happy about a whole lot of things. She, it's like a snowball, it's like oh and this and this and this, and so it was just a lot, and so I just like, all right, fine, we'll just we'll go ahead and do this thing and, yeah, she, she wishes that we hadn't cut it.
Speaker 2Okay, so we're talking about a bit of impulsivity and a bit of buyer's remorse. Yes, yes.
Speaker 3Buyer's remorse Definitely.
Speaker 2So there is impulsivity and there's buyer's remorse. Yes, buyer's remorse, and I'm curious about what it was like for you, Cassie, in the moment when you felt like someone was preventing you from doing what you wanted to do. Imagine it wasn't about that specific thing that you needed to do. It was more about if I can't do this, then it means this to me, or it makes me feel this way.
Speaker 3I felt annoyed and a bit of anxiety as well At the end of the moment and I realized that all those were just nonsense emotions, that wasn't even relevant to the decision, because it's a bad, it's horrible, it's a very nice place, brand new everything, but the problem is we realized that I don't like it.
Speaker 2I'm going to ask a similar question in a different way, but to both of you your current relationship to spending how has that developed in alignment with or as a response to your family of origin?
Speaker 1I don't think we have a spending issue. We we established a set amount to where, if something costs more than this amount, then we have that conversation about it and make a decision about whether we want to spend the money on this thing. But other than that, neither one of us are big spenders. She has a lot of clothes, but those have been accumulated over the years and before me I asked them more. On. Like household things, I'm like oh, we need a new air fryer, oh, we need a new. I saw this wet dry vacuum thing that I think that we need that it'll make cleaning easier. So, like more household things, but nothing excessive. There's nothing cluttered, you don't have a lot of junk. But yeah, we've never had any disagreements about spending.
Speaker 3I don't think no, I don't think that's an issue in our relationship, because while we, when we're expressing, when we're making big money spending even though this was something that I had to convince her on, but it's not like we just like, oh, let's just take all the money we have and just throw it in here, you we are both very conscious with money, in a sense of looking towards the future, because we both want to retire very early and move overseas. So that's something that we are actually saving towards and something that we really are passionate about. So money has never been an issue for us where we fight about or somebody is doing excessive spending.
Speaker 1Not in the sense of spending, but one thing we did fight about is what savings looked like, Right. So I don't know if this was. Yeah, I think my parents are very fiscally responsible and my dad's ex-military still works for the military and he did always talk to me about money and saving. He made me save when I got my first job, put a certain amount of money away and they would match it and I could use that to get a car a car. So I've always been about saving and then later learn more about investing and things like that, and I'm very practical when it comes to that.
Speaker 1How you want to have a emergency fund, but how much interest are you getting from your checking or savings account versus doing something like getting it in a Roth where you could pull the money out, or a CD or something like that? So I'm more erring on thinking long-term and what makes the most sense as far as return on your investment. And she is like we don't have any money because we don't have X amount in the savings account and I'm like but you're ignoring this piece over here. This is also something that we can liquidate very quickly if we needed to, without any tax penalty.
Speaker 2So we butted heads about that quite a bit, and that speaks to the different personalities, doesn't it? It speaks to the different personalities where one person is about long-term planning. Or maybe you both think about long-term, but, angelica, you've got more of this planning part of you. Both think about long-term, but, angelica, you've got more of this planning part of you. And it seems like for Cassie, what it looks like at face value is important, and to me that fits with the spontaneity, right. Is there something instant? There's something visible, the gratification, the liquidity. It kind of goes with this.
Speaker 2I'm curious about disagreements that you might have had over the last year, but particularly a disagreement that you didn't expect to have, and I'll give you some print about why I'm asking this. I'm thinking about a disagreement you might have had in the last year that you didn't expect to have, and the reason I'm asking that is because we often assume that we know somebody really well, but in a tough moment they might make a decision that we couldn't have anticipated. Decisions we make in tough moments are often guided by our values and what we prioritize, so I'm curious to know if something surprised each of you over the last year.
Speaker 1We think about that. There's something on the mind right away for you Not yet it doesn't necessarily have to be financial.
Speaker 3So I think a disagreement that we had that it really surprised me was what boundaries look like. For example, what time is it appropriate for somebody to be sending you a message and stuff like that. What surprised me about Angelica was what she considered appropriate with timing, when people should be sending messages, like whether I said meme or text or whatever it is. That was really surprising to me.
Speaker 2It's still a bit it's surprising to me so this is about boundaries around technology and how that enters your relationship right because we're in a time when people connect whenever, and so how did you guys talk through that?
Speaker 1Well, the thing is that I guess that was what was the piece that was surprising to me, because it wasn't an encroachment on our time. It was because, let's say, we say our time is from nine, nine, 30 on. Nobody interrupts that time whatever.
Speaker 1Well, there was no interaction. I wasn't communicating with someone during that time, but messages came in that I checked during appropriate hours, but because she saw that they came in at times that were not appropriate like my phone didn't buzz, it didn't interrupt anything, but when I checked the messages and maybe I was showing her something, she could see the time that the messages came in and that bothered her because I guess the principle of it, and so that piece was surprising to me. So how we navigated, that was really just me respecting what her boundary was, which was not just that the interaction didn't take place, but that it was clear to everybody else that this is what our boundary looks like and that's what I needed to communicate.
Speaker 2I can appreciate that. I mean, on the one hand, we can't always control what other people send us, but we can manage our notifications or how much we attend to it. And I'm guessing for you, angelica, before being in this relationship and living together, you might have checked your phone at all hours, like that might have been okay for you at a time in your life. Is that right?
Speaker 1Yes, because I'm a night person. I am one who stays up until one extreme times two, three o'clock, but one o'clock easily, and so that was something I may interact with people during those late hours. But since we've been together, she's a morning person and so we have to kind of balance that so she stays up a little bit later and I go to bed a little bit earlier, so we meet in the middle.
Speaker 2So yes, Cassie, has that felt like a good resolution for you, or do you still feel a bit disrespected in a way by people sending messages or trying to connect with them?
Speaker 3I think it's inappropriate and disrespectful for anybody to feel like it's okay for them to send someone that's in a marriage message any hours of the night, regardless if it's given a notification or not. It's a level of disrespect that I don't want to sound like chauvinist or whatever they call it, but it's something that I will not tolerate. Where somebody feel like they have the right to send my wife a message at one o'clock, two o'clock, five o'clock, whatever time they feel like in the night, that's something that I'm not going to put up with. What he asked was was the resolution satisfactory for you? In the beginning, no, but after a while, the resolution, the conversation is satisfactory.
Speaker 2Yeah, thank you for sharing that, cassie. There's a value here, right, that Cassie's talking about, and this value is very strong and the way you described it. It's specific to marriage and it tells me a bit about how you see marriage. Right, there's something sacred and technology and other people there's an expectation that they respect it and treat it in a particular way, and I think that can be valid because that's your value.
Speaker 2But I can see how you guys might cop against that, because the way you frame it, cassie, is like the other person is taking that away from you and it's something to put up with. It feels like a personal attack on you and so I think that you just sit with. When I'm thinking about the impact it has and what it means to each of you to even like responding to a message is one thing, but to receive it and, angelica, in this moment I'm curious if you would feel comfortable to share your value. I appreciate that you are adjusting for your partner because it feels disrespectful to her. Do you see it on your own, as inherently disrespectful, as someone tries to, let's say, evenings and weekends? Do you see it as an encroach, like they're not respecting you in some way, or is that not how you tend to see?
Technical Difficulties Interrupt Recording Process
Speaker 1It depends on the situation. If someone were calling or texting um, and I, yeah, during times that I've communicated to them that um, or even whether I've communicated or not, I think as adults in who've been in committed relationships, you should know you don't call someone after a certain time, like that's family time, whether that time is after dinner or during dinner hours or whatever. I think everybody has some level of knowledge that certain things aren't appropriate. Now, what that exact time looks like is different for different people. It's disrespectful if I say don't do something and someone does it anyway, but for this specific situation, I think it's more what you're asking about. I did not see sending memes on TikTok or Instagram during certain times as disrespectful because the other person knew that I did not.
Speaker 1Oh no, no, all right, pardon the interruption, but we are having some technical difficulties. Raheem is out of the country and construction, noise and Wi-Fi issues are making the recording of the rest of this episode difficult, so we are going to end here and pick back up next week. We didn't want to re-record. We wanted the conversation to be as organic as possible, so this is where we are. Hope you join us back here next week. Same time, same place.