A Queer Understanding

Laurel Roberts-Meese: Tailoring Transformative Therapy & Strengthening Queer Relationships Through Holistic Approaches

• Dr. Angelica & Cassy Thompson • Season 6 • Episode 8

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Have you ever wondered how high-achieving professionals and members of the LGBTQ+ community navigate the complexities of therapy? Join us for a compelling conversation with Laurel Roberts-Meese, LMFT, a dedicated therapist and founder of the Laurel Therapy Collective, as she shares insights from her journey. From her early days in San Francisco to establishing a thriving practice in West Los Angeles, Laurel dives into her evolution as a therapist, her passion for EMDR therapy, and her commitment to holistic and narrative approaches that resonate deeply with diverse clients. Through her expertise, you'll learn about the transformative power of therapy tailored to the unique needs of the LGBTQ+ community.

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Therapy for High Achievers and Queer

Speaker 1

For over a decade, laurel Roberts-Meese has been a therapist for high achievers, including executives, lawyers, healthcare workers and entrepreneurs. She's helped facilitate incredible healing journeys from horrific trauma to self-assuredness. She's helped people deepen relationships with others and with themselves. A voracious lover of life, she wants listeners to feel hopeful, empowered and informed. Here's our conversation. Hi, laurel, thanks for being on the show. Hey there, thanks for having me. So you are the second therapist we've had on, so I'm interested in hearing your perspective on things. The first one was a gay man and then I'm loving the juxtaposition a gay man, and then loving the juxtaposition demographics, just to see different perspectives. So your practice is called Laurel Therapy Collective. Where are you based?

Speaker 2

So we're based in California and we've been virtual up until recently. We just opened an in-person office in West Los Angeles, but we can work with anyone in California, florida, virginia, washington and Pennsylvania Okay, therapists licensed in those states, okay. So that's virtual therapy and then in-person in LA.

Speaker 1

Okay, and when did you start your practice?

Speaker 2

Well, I started my solo practice December 2019. And it was in person. I had a lovely office actually in San Francisco. I got to relocate to be near my longtime partner because everything went virtual, but I've been seeing clients actively since 2010. So, coming up on 15 years, it was always plan A for me. I always knew this was what I wanted to do. I always wanted to be a therapist. I wanted to help people tell their stories, to help reframe their experiences and own their narrative. So I'm one of the weirdos that is still on plan A.

Speaker 1

Very cool and your practice is comprised of you and how many other therapists?

Speaker 2

Right now we've got two others one that is all virtual and she really specializes in trauma therapy. She does a good amount of couples therapy too, but a specific trauma therapy called EMDR that we're super passionate about because it's so effective. For those who don't know, what does EMDR stand for? It stands for eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing, which sounds a little kooky and a little bit fake. And I admit there are some days that I go into an EMDR session. I'm like this is weird. Really Moving your eyes is going to heal your trauma. That's totally fake. And then I mean the research just backs it up so strongly that it does work, that I'm like, well, yep, we really did just heal someone's needle phobia with that session. That happened. Okay, we'll keep doing it.

Speaker 1

I think I saw that on Law Order SVU. Okay, you and what's the other therapist's name?

Speaker 2

So she's starting in a couple of weeks. Her name is Daniela, a queer woman of color, and her experience thus far has been supporting people with critical illnesses and their families, but also does a lot of narrative therapy, a lot of sex therapy, and is going to be getting into doing some couples work as well.

Speaker 1

Okay, and you are an LNFT, a licensed marriage and family therapist, right.

Speaker 2

Yeah, which is, in California, one of two dominant master's level clinical licensure types. So there's licensed psychologists. We all can kind of do the same things, with a couple of exceptions. Licensed psychologists, as you know, can do standalone assessment. So if you want to know if you have ADHD or autism, you can't go to an LMFT for that unless they have extensive training in that you do need to go to a psychologist. But in terms of therapy, yes, you can go to a master's level clinician and get really good care, okay.

Speaker 1

And I know that you specialize in queer therapy. The other therapists in your practice also specialize in that.

Speaker 2

Yeah, absolutely. I would say maybe about half of our clients that we work with are part of the LGBT community. It's something that we love supporting that community. Some of us are in the community, some are not, but it is really clinically our niche and our passion because, while it is a very diverse community, there are some core themes that just really resonate with us and are really rich fodder for that narrative, holistic work that we love to do.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and I saw that on your website and I'm curious about whether straight people are reluctant to come.

Speaker 2

No, no, not at all. In fact, a lot of the straight people that come to work with us feel good about coming to a practice that is vocally affirming because that aligns with their values. They have loved ones that are in the queer community or family members, and more and more these days, people are really wanting to support businesses that align with their values.

Speaker 1

Absolutely.

Speaker 2

And this is not rainbow capitalism. This isn't just like putting a rainbow on it and it'll sell. It's foundational to the work is this affirmation Like the rainbow came and then was there and then we built on top of it, instead of putting the rainbow wrapping around it at the very end. Yeah, instead of putting the rainbow wrapping around it at the very end.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Is there any particular reason, like one specific reason, where you thought about I've got to get into queer therapy. What was that moment?

Speaker 2

Well, for people that are not familiar with the licensure process, it takes many, many years to become a therapist. You have to do a two or three year degree and then in most states licensure requirements vary state by state, but in most states you need to do two or three thousand hours of often unpaid practice. That's years of time, because you can't do 40 sessions a week. That's crazy, you'd be burnout. So if you maybe do 20 sessions a week, that's years that it's going to take you before you can submit all your hours and then wait a few more months and then they tell you that you can take this ridiculously difficult exam to get your final license Right. So there's years and during that time you are supported by other licensed therapists. You actually legally have to practice under their license. And I was really fortunate that the placements I had for that practicum and that the associateships that I had really were helping me develop my clinical voice and figure out who I loved to work with. Was it a particular diagnosis, like OCD or ADHD, or was it a particular developmental phase? Did I love working with teenagers or retirees, or was it an identity based work? And what I was finding that the two things that just, I always just felt so lit up by were working with trauma, which we all have trauma Spoiler alert we all have trauma. Some people have more acute trauma than others, but we all have trauma.

Speaker 2

And in the placement where I ended up finishing my hours and really kind of growing into the therapist I am today, we were just getting so many calls that wanted to work with a queer identified therapist and it was me and one older white man and so there was just I saw there was such a need and I just loved the work that I was doing with these people, even though it wasn't always the identity work. Like often they already had that identity piece already done. Often identity not across the board, but often identity work for queer people is done in college, young adulthood, depending on when people have their can come out to themselves, but that's not the population I was working with. So the identity piece was done. But then we don't just come out once. It's you all know, it's every day. So I was just loving the work with those clients and I was like let's keep this going because I love it and the work was really fruitful, really rewarding and there's a need.

Speaker 1

Yes, so you landed on couples therapy. Do most people tend to come to you as a preventative measure or after they're in crisis?

Speaker 2

Yeah, all across the board. In our practice we see couples that are like we just really like having this structured and contained space that can be really preventative and a place to have hard conversations or to give feedback so that people aren't surprised by it at the dinner table, because that can be really dysregulating to some people. It's okay if I need to bring something up. I know I've got couples therapy right.

Speaker 2

There are also those couples that are in crisis. There's something big that has happened, an affair or a disclosure, or they have kind of drifted so far apart, or even just an external event of a death in the family or having to relocate, and it really strains the relationship, or a pandemic really strains the relationship. I would caution people against waiting until you get to crisis point to start couples therapy. Sometimes there can just be like just too much to clean up. The most success that we have is with people that are in that middle space which is like okay, we recognize there's room for improvement here, or there's these one or two categories that we really struggle with. I don't know if you're familiar with the Gottman four horsemen of the relationship apocalypse.

Speaker 1

Yes, but for our listeners you can listen. Yes, for the listeners.

Speaker 2

So there are four, the Gottmans which, by the way, the Gottmans, they're one of two of the main couples therapy, theoretical orientations there's. Gottman, EFT and Imago are kind of the three main ones. Also PACT, which I don't know as much about, but the Gottmans, they were on the forefront of research about same-sex couples way before marriage equality way before marriage equality way before.

Speaker 2

Yeah, they did a longitudinal study of same-sex couples, a 12-year study that concluded before marriage equality passed. So they were some of the first big-name researchers that were saying, hey, guess what Queer couples? They're the same, like they're, they are equally, as not just valid, but like the issues that are showing up are very similar. Now there are some specific issues that that are unique to lgbt couples, but the gotmans they have have access to a ton of resources to do couples therapy, couples research and couples therapy research, and they long ago identified these four horsemen, which is something, something's not going great in your relationship if you're experiencing some of these.

Speaker 2

So they are criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling and if you see those coming up in your relationship, get into therapy now if you want to save it right. They absolutely can be reversed. There are antidotes to these horsemen, but you've got to start learning them and practicing and implementing them now so that both of you can feel more satisfied in the relationship. Because if, if you're stonewalling someone, it's because you don't feel good or safe or like you are heard or considered Right. So if, if one of those is showing up, it probably better odds that therapy is going to be helpful than if you have all four.

Speaker 1

Right, so you mentioned that there's a lot of similarities in queer and straight couples issues. There's also some things that are unique. What are some things that you've seen as a therapist?

Speaker 2

Well in terms of how couples therapy is done, like how it's practiced. In terms of how couples therapy is done, like how it's practiced, zero differences between straight and queer couples. If you are a Gottman therapist or if you're a potential client that really loves what the Gottmans are putting out there or really resonates with Sue Johnson's EFT principles, it's going to work for any couple if it resonates with you, if it feels like the right modality. Where we see some differences is in some of the content areas, like some of the things that come up in couples therapy that are unique to queer couples. So just real, briefly, those are. I hate to lead with it because so often queer stories are about coming out and yes, coming out is important, but also that's not the stage where all couples are. But but coming out is one of those six content areas. Communication, which of course, all couples. Communication is an issue. Actually, queer couples are doing some things better with communication than straight counterparts. Issues around family planning, which plenty of straight couples also have to have these conversations, but more often with queer couples. Issues around gender roles and division of labor. If there isn't a default as dictated by society, sometimes you need to have really direct conversations about how labor is divided up and I love those conversations because it really gives couples all couples should be having these conversations but it really gives couples an opportunity to self-design and architect their relationship in a way that feels good and authentic to them.

Speaker 2

Family of origin issues Also. Of course straight couples have that too. But if there is any kind of prejudice or homophobia in the family of origin, that's going to strain the relationship and that's going to be more of a topic in couples therapy. And then, of course, the big one that is unique to LGBT couples is homophobic violence and internalized homophobia, because that can really be toxic to the relationship.

Speaker 2

If someone has internalized homophobia, they're not going to be as precious with the relationship. They might engage in more conflicting behaviors or more rejection behaviors because they are just in that battle of I love this person but I'm not yet good with my queerness. So that can be very, very stressful in a relationship and it's also just so sad because all humans are inherently deserving of love and loving relationships and when the rejection of that is coming from inside the house, that's really just so tragic for everyone involved. So that's really the only one issue that shows up only in LGBT couples. The rest of them. You're going to see in all couples there are really more differences within straight versus queer couples than between straight versus queer couples.

Speaker 3

In terms of family of origin. Do you see more couples experiencing issues with that based on cultural differences?

Navigating Relationships in the Queer Community

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, and I mean all of these categories that I just talked about can absolutely apply to straight couples. When there's a cultural issue, like talking about stages of outness between couples, and there, if there is a discrepancy there, that creating tension that can be the experience of an inter, an interfaith relationship or a age difference relationship. If there are these kind of developmental or identity pieces that aren't really aligned and you're not developmentally in lockstep, that is going to create tension in the relationship. So, absolutely yeah, cultural issues and the intersectionality of culture and queerness also is something that's really really important for any couples therapist to understand, but especially a couples therapist working with a queer couple do you more often see that it brings couples closer together or divides them?

Speaker 1

Because I can see a situation where my family is not supportive of me being a lesbian, but my wife's family is accepting and so they become my family and we are closer. But then also there are probably situations where my upset because because she can't come to Christmas dinner with me. So I'm more, I'm more still trying to keep that relationship in place with my family and then that puts the bag between me and my partner.

Speaker 2

Absolutely. I mean, it's totally mixed bag, right. The the opportunity for found family, for having that attachment, healing that happens through loving and accepting in-laws that can be wonderful. And also the rejection of the relationship and having to leave your partner out of celebrations or grieving rituals can be a big stress, or grieving rituals can be a big stress. What I would suspect is true for queer couples is the research that we have around how to handle difficult in-law situations is that your partner needs to know that you are always on their team, right, and if they perceive you choosing your family over them let's say you're in like a formally or maybe not even formally committed relationship, this is a long-term partnership, this is a marriage equivalent, or a marriage perceives you choosing your family over them, even though you have made a commitment to them.

Speaker 2

That's going to create tension in any relationship. This isn't to say everything is always so black and white, but they do need to feel that you've got their back right. And that doesn't necessarily mean, oh, I'm not going to go to Oma's funeral. It just means, hey, this is awful and I'm so sorry I can't bring you. That's not okay, that I can't bring you. It's really important to me that I go to this and then I'm going to come home to you and we're going to have time together. And I am so sorry that my family is not accepting of you. You don't deserve that To always have your partner feel like you're on their team.

Speaker 3

Right. But also for a person like me, I couldn't deal with that. It would be very difficult for me. I couldn't be in that type of relationship. It wouldn't work. It would be a lot of conflict and it may be like oh, you're not choosing your family, but you you are because you're leaving me to go spend time with them that don't even appreciate my existence. So I personally couldn't do it. And some people are doing it and they're doing it well and making it work. Yeah, it's probably personal that they have mine, but yeah, totally.

Speaker 2

Everyone has different boundaries and different hard lines, and if you know that you can't be with someone whose family is rejecting, then you know that right like some people have different comfort levels with someone who's not fully out at work, let's say, and just knowing where you are and being upfront about it in early dating stages. It's the same as if you don't want kids and you're in early dating stages with someone who does. Well, okay, be honest with yourself. Where is your boundary? What are your non-negotiables? Because everyone's are going to be a with yourself. Where is your boundary? What are your non-negotiables? Because everyone's are going to be a little different.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 2

Definitely.

Speaker 3

Definitely.

Speaker 1

You mentioned. One thing that those of us in the queer community are doing well is communication. I've been hearing how you see that showing up.

Speaker 2

Yeah, Well, we can thank the Gottmans for this again, because they did all this great research and they were like there's more fair play. There's fewer arguments around power and control. This is especially true for couples of two women. There's also more humor and affection in communication and conflict between same-sex couples compared to hetero couples. Right, and hetero couples are more likely to be affected by criticism and they're less likely to be affectionate. So that means same-sex couples are doing better of relaying to each other hey, we're in conflict, but we're still on the same team. We can still laugh about something absurd, even if there's tension here. Right, that's really good to have, Because if you're telegraphing, hey, the problem is this and we are on the same team trying to solve the problem Much better approach.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's us against the problem and not you.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah. And often the problem is miscommunication, right, and if you're like, hey, our opponent is miscommunication, how are we going to defeat miscommunication? Right? So yeah, so yeah, so yeah, so yeah, so yeah. And LGBT couples also able to self-soothe during conflict a little bit better. And again, using humor during conflict. Same-sex couples are doing better at that, which is really encouraging. It is.

Speaker 1

Say more about the self-soothing.

Speaker 2

That this is actually gay. Men are able to self-soothe during conflict and soothe their partner. So, hey, this is really upsetting. We're having this conversation about this. Take a breather, I need a few minutes. Okay, do you need a few minutes? How are you doing Check in? Okay, let's keep talking about it. They're better able to do that.

Navigating Relationship Dynamics and Trust

Speaker 3

Interesting Because there was a statistic that shows that gay men have longer marriages than lesbians. Interesting Because there was a statistic that shows that gay men have longer marriages than lesbians.

Speaker 2

Interesting More successful marriages yes.

Speaker 1

Well, we'll say we've heard that stat, I haven't done the research yet.

Speaker 3

I've seen it and I'm glad. Okay, yes, and then I have a question around relationships. And then I have a question around relationships.

Speaker 2

So do you see where conflict arise as well, with people that identify as bisexual dating people that identify as lesbians or gays? Do you see more conflict in those relationships? I don't know, I mean anecdotal. I wouldn't be able to give an anecdotal answer and I wouldn't want to because it would not be founded in fact or research Right. But yeah, I have no idea. And also, are we talking about bisexual women? Are we talking about bisexual men? Are we talking about non-binary pansexual people? I don't know.

Speaker 1

It's more like when you have a couple and one person is sexually fluid, so they could be pan or bi or something else where they're interested in more than just their partner's gender. Yeah, as their partner is only interested in, however, the person identifies as far as their gender identity.

Speaker 1

I would imagine though that there may be trust issues and conflicts in those situations because, and because it depends on the level of security I mean, I can imagine that I would be worried about my wife being around men and women. If I know that she liked both those boundaries that I may be comfortable with if I knew that she were strictly lesbian might be a little bit different than if I felt like she identified as bisexual or pansexual.

Speaker 2

Yeah, but here's the thing If you're secure in a relationship and you trust that your partner is faithful, the genders of who they're attracted to don't matter. Likewise, if you don't trust them, the genders of the people that they are around don't matter. And I think that, unfortunately, a lot of biphobia has been perpetuated by this idea that bisexual people are less trustworthy and it's just simply not true, right? And I mean every couple needs to talk about what their definition of monogamy means. If they are monogamous and if they're not monogamous, there's still going to be structure and containment to their relationship. Going to be structure and containment to their relationship, non-monogamy agreement, and as long as those things are clear, because two monogamous people might have a different understanding of what monogamy means, right, and certain types of expanding a relationship might be more threatening than others.

Speaker 2

Some people might be like, yeah, you can make out with other people on the dance floor, I don't care. And other people are like absolutely not Right. Likewise, with emotional intimacy, right, like it may be extremely in a and no sexual context whatsoever it. A partner may feel extremely uncomfortable with their partner sharing any like intimate details of the relationship, just about the emotional machinations of the relationship with a colleague, even though that isn't cheating in in the sense of it, it's a trust rupture. So anyone that is concerned about a person who's attracted to multiple genders ask yourself why right.

Speaker 1

Right, it's really important to identify non-negotiables and boundaries and things up front, no matter what type of relationship that you're in. Yeah, yeah. So I have a question for you that you may or may not have experienced. One of the things that you listed was gender roles, and it was more like gender roles slash division of labor. But roles show up not just in chores and tasks that need to be done, but also in the bedroom, sure, or social interactions.

Exploring Power Dynamics in Therapy

Speaker 2

I mean, who's the social secretary who makes the plans to go out to dinner with our couple friends? Social secretary who makes the plans to go out to dinner?

Speaker 1

with our couple friends who initiates hard conversations. Yeah, so have you seen that be an issue or manifest in gay or lesbian relationships?

Speaker 2

as far as issues with gender roles in the bedroom with gender roles in the bedroom, so I am not trained in sex therapy.

Speaker 2

One of the people on my team is but I mean, sex comes up kind of in passing, but it is more around hey, I want to feel emotionally closer to you and sex is one of the ways that I know we do that. I think, especially when there is an egalitarian dynamic between members of a couple, it's increasingly important to experiment with power in the bedroom, right, because we actually anecdotally I have heard that when people feel very evenly matched, it's not as sexy, right? Humans inherently are drawn to some exchange of power and there can be some eroticism to that. And trying new things, experimenting with different power dynamics, can be super sexy, right. So if couples are in a rut or just feeling okay, neither one of us likes to initiate or like we kind of just do the same thing every time. Yeah, I think it's super healthy and helpful and can kind of reignite a spark to play with power dynamics. And also, you need to talk about what that looks like and what the boundaries of that are and what you are and are not comfortable with, right?

Speaker 3

Absolutely, and what you are and are not comfortable with Right, absolutely.

Speaker 2

If couples are specifically looking to work on sex as like a primary focus of their relationship, I would encourage them to find a therapist that is certified by ASECT, that's A-A-S-E-C-T and that is the kind of governing body of people that have gotten specific training in working with issues around sex sex therapy so it's not just like someone who decided they just wanted to talk about sex a lot in their work. There's actually some like rigor and some requirements, and sometimes even I believe they have to have some kind of like biomedical knowledge so that if there are medical issues at play which can affect someone's sex lives, they know how to incorporate that into the sex therapy.

Speaker 1

Do you have any idea what the percentage of therapists? That are sex therapists.

Speaker 2

I have no idea.

Speaker 1

I can look that up and I imagine even smaller percentage are queer. They may work with couples, but I don't know Something like that. I feel like it's important to have some of those experiences yourself.

Speaker 2

Well, I mean that brings up a really interesting question, which is as a queer person, do you need to see a queer therapist, Right? The answer is it depends. It can be very helpful. Yes.

Speaker 1

It depends on what your issues are. Some of your issues are well to me as a for individual therapy. Again, if, if you're already out and all of those things, you're comfortable, you don't have issues with your sexuality or gender identity, then you probably don't. But then again relationship issues have to come up and those things like the power dynamics and things like that. It's easier to understand if you're in the community.

Speaker 2

Totally Well. If you're going to therapy for trauma, like if you are trying, if you want to try EMDR because you had a car accident and you just need to be able to get behind the wheel again, then then, yeah, maybe a shared identity or lived experience with your therapist doesn't matter as much. But often therapy really is that relational piece and we know that 80% of why therapy works is the quality of the relationship between therapist and client works is the quality of the relationship between therapist and client. It is so important and I have worked with both queer and straight therapists as a client myself and there were great things about all of them. I needed certain lived experiences at certain times in my life. So if you're, if a listener is wondering, do do my partner and I need to see a queer therapist. Just ask yourself how important that is to you.

Speaker 2

There can be certain barriers, like access who's on an insurance panel, who's licensed in your state, all of that, of course, and and similarly with any identity I do not. I absolutely support anyone who's. As a black person, I only want to work with a Black therapist. Yeah, that makes sense to me, right, and it's not the most salient part of everyone's identity and what's bringing them to therapy. On my team I have a straight therapist who does incredible work with queer couples, and then I have a queer therapist who is likewise going to do great work because of skill, but also lived experience and shared identity. So just think about the most salient parts of your identity and what you want to see reflected back at you in that therapeutic relationship.

Speaker 3

I had a therapy Kelsey. She's a straight white woman and she was my therapy for many years when I was living in Maryland and she got married and moved overseas and I saw at least four other therapists since then and I just cannot feel the connection. And I was telling Angelica I tried black, queer white and I'm like I just don't feel that same connection that I was telling Angelica I tried black, queer white and I'm like I just don't feel that same connection that I felt with her and yeah, we look at both of us.

Speaker 3

We look nothing in common. We don't have the same lived experiences, but she was just so good yeah, she was so good at what she does. Every time I go to therapy, I with something I haven't really felt that since she left. It felt like a relationship broke or closes their practice or they stop taking your insurance or something, and it can be a real loss.

Speaker 2

And I think we don't talk about what that's like to lose a therapist, because it's such a special relationship and sometimes impossible to replace.

Therapy Consultation and Treatment Process

Speaker 3

It is and the connection that you spoke about. It has to be there, because if it's, not there. I don't think it. Based on my experience with her, I don't think a person has to have the same lived experience. They don't have to be the same color, they don't have to be gay because she wasn't, she wasn't, none of those but she was just great at what she does.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and you felt safe and you felt safe.

Speaker 3

Yeah, you felt safe.

Speaker 2

You felt heard, you felt understood. And sometimes it does require some a specific lived experience, and sometimes it does not.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 1

So, laurel, in these last few minutes that we have, what can a couple expect when coming into your practice? What does that look like? Are you like starting from the beginning and telling us how you met and all of those things, or currently are you in crisis right now? What's currently going on? Develop a treatment plan? What does it look like?

Speaker 2

Yeah, so the initial call that people schedule with us, we actually talk to each member of the couple separately and this is just a consultation. This is just like asking some questions because and it's free we never want anyone to come into our practice if it's not a good fit. Right? We just talked about goodness of fit, most important thing, right? And sometimes couples would really be better served by another practice or a specific specialty, or maybe they're looking for someone that has an identity that we don't have someone on staff. So we talk to each person for about 20 minutes, sometimes 20 to 30 minutes, so combined it's almost an hour. This initial phone call and we have a whole bunch of questions. We ask everyone just to get that bird's eye view of what's happening and each person's perspective on what's happening. And then if it feels like a good fit and and reason someone might not be or a couple might not be a good fit is if there's a major issue that we are not equipped to, so like we don't do substance abuse treatment, and if there's a couple that, like majorly abusing substance is a primary thing, like that wouldn't be a good fit for us. We wouldn't be serving them, we wouldn't be helping them the way they deserve to be helped, as an example. And then, but if it is a good fit, we kind of come back together and say, hey, okay, here's what. We think that this is a good fit, here's the therapist that we think you would best match with. And then, if they're into it, if they're feeling it, then they have a first paid session session. Therapist asks about their kind of courtship and like relationship history, which can kind of get some of that feel good juice going, because it's like, oh, remember the first couple of months we were dating, Remember those good times, and it takes them out of kind of the tension that's bringing them in and then talking about the current issue and then from there we actually do a full session with each person separately just to build that rapport and then coming back together and game planning and that's so. That's technically a fourth session, which is okay.

Speaker 2

How would we know when we're done is the question that we want to ask, because making sure all three people are on the same page about what the work looks like, where we're going, and from there, that's when the therapist does their treatment planning and the couple doesn't really see that process because it's a roadmap the therapist has in their head. A couple at any point can be like hey, what's the game plan here? That's a fine question to ask your therapist and in fact, if you don't know what the game plan is and you're not really sure if therapy is helping, please do ask that question in a nice way, but ask that question right, Because you should feel on the same page as your therapist and then from there it looks different for everyone, because everyone's game plan, everyone's roadmap is different, that assessment period being really important. And sometimes in that assessment period we recommend other things like hey, we're noticing one partner has some pretty significant OCD and it's really going to benefit the couple for that partner to get some treatment for that.

Speaker 2

Or hey, this current living situation is very stressful for both of you. What's going on with that? Right?

Speaker 1

So we certainly make those recommendations as necessary. Yeah, that question is really important and I don't know that I've asked that of a therapist or a therapist has asked that of me in all these years, but how we know when we're done, what does success look like to an individual or as a couple? That is really important.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and I find that 80% of the time when I ask that question, how do we know when we're done in that third or fourth session? Individuals, it's a third session, couples, it's the fourth or fifth maybe 80% of the time I am not surprised by what I hear and then the other 20% of the time it's just something that hasn't come up yet. So it's oh, we need to talk about, like, our financial situation. Oh, okay, yeah, well, we do need to talk about that, and it's just something like there's so much, particularly in a relationship with two people that have their own histories, and it's an addition to the plan I already had in my head, not a departure from the plan I already had in my head.

Speaker 1

Yeah, Well, Laurel, thank you so much here. This information has been a great conversation. The information you provided has been really helpful. It is the Laurel Therapy Collective and your website is what Laureltherapynet.

Speaker 2

And folks can find you on social media, where We've got Instagram at Laurel Therapy Collective, same on Facebook and LinkedIn and YouTube. Okay, got some videos up there. Yeah, including, we just recorded a yoga webinar. We're like, moving our bodies is part of holistic health and so if you, if you need a, like, a mindfulness gentle, stretching, we've got stuff on youtube nice and laura, do you take insurance? We don't. We give all the documentation automatically for people that have a PPO plan to submit for reimbursement, but we are out of network.

Speaker 3

All right, our listeners. There you have it, laurel Roberts-Meese, the founder of Laurel Therapy Collective, a therapist that's changing lives in the LGBTQ plus community. Thank you, laurel, for being on A Queer Understanding podcast. It was a pleasure having you. I'm sure this session is going to touch someone.

Speaker 2

I sure hope so. Thanks for having me.