A Queer Understanding

Religion, Queerness, and Finding Your True Voice in Hollywood with Paul Cram

• Dr. Angelica & Cassy Thompson • Season 7 • Episode 7

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What happens when the people who should love you unconditionally make that love contingent on denying your authentic self? Actor Paul Cram takes us behind the curtain of his life journey - from growing up in a large Pentecostal family in the Midwest to finding his voice as an artist and openly queer man.

The conversation explores Paul's acting career, including work with Woody Harrelson and Cillian Murphy, while drawing poignant parallels between performing on screen and performing heteronormativity to survive. Paul shares how religious trauma manifested in his life - from internalized shame to suicidal ideation - and the gradual process of liberation through therapy, community, and intellectual curiosity. 

https://paulcramactor.com/


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Speaker 1

As a character actor, artist and avid storyteller, paul knows how to engage an audience, whether on screen, in print or through the spoken word. With years of experience on live TV, radio and podcasts, he's no stranger to unscripted conversations that entertain, inform and inspire. As the founder of the Men who Read Book Club and a passionate advocate for literacy, paul brings thought-provoking perspectives on the power of books and band literature. His work with Unified Work Academy and SAG-AFTRA's Education and Outreach Committee also make him a compelling voice on workplace culture, soft skills and the business of acting. Culture, soft skills and the business of acting. Whether diving into behind the scenes film stories, unpacking the latest literary controversy or sharing unexpected perfume obsessions, paul delivers engaging, articulate and dynamic conversations that resonate with others. Here's our conversation. Hi, paul, thanks for joining us. No-transcript, all right.

Speaker 2

So I was. I did see that you had. I was listening to some of the episodes before obviously we're recording and I was like I was listening to the one you definitely had an author on. It was a fun recently. So I'm a book lover, I'm an actor, all the things yeah.

Speaker 1

And acting is one of those things where you see it on TV, you see it happening and most people probably think that they could do it, I think I could do it, I think I could be a good actor.

Speaker 2

So, and most people probably think that they can do it. I think I could do it. I think I could be a good actor. What does your wife think?

Speaker 1

She shared that with you.

Speaker 3

She never shared it, so I'm going to have to. I don't know.

Speaker 2

I only asked that because it is one of those things that I feel like. It's one of those things where it's like, oh, yeah, I could do that, no-transcript, exhausted. And she's like, yeah, you're exhausted because, like you're playing the roles of these people that are like tortured souls, that have to, like, go through these grueling emotions on screen and you have to maintain that the entire day. Like you have to hold on to that emotion and not let it go. And it sounds easy. And it's like, oh, you have to cry on camera. Well, that's fun. And it's like, well, it's fun for the first two takes, but we're going for six hours. Like it's exhausting work. Sometimes it's super fun, but, yeah, I don't think everybody can do it at some point.

Speaker 1

It's like this is a, this is a lot yeah, right, yeah, having to stay in character and really embody a person and all the things that they're going through. Yeah, that sounds pretty exhausting. Yeah, in your mind. I've seen some scenes and I'm like, yes, yes, that resonates with me. I could cry, trying to cry because somebody killed somebody I love or whatever. But you're right, in reality it's like I could do it for a moment, but all day that, yeah.

Speaker 3

Right, because it took me all day to cry.

Speaker 2

Or all week, depending on what's going on.

Speaker 1

Yeah, but it's fun in that way too.

Path to Acting and Family Dynamics

Speaker 2

I don't mean to say it's not fun, it's a blast and I've enjoyed a lot of the work that I've been able to do. A lot of the body of my work is pretty obscure films. Most people haven't seen them. They're a lot of independent stuff. I live in the middle of the Midwest of the USA. I'm not on the coasts, although I've worked on the coast on film projects. But I don't know I'm enjoying it.

Speaker 1

Yeah, nice. So what got you into acting? Did you always want to be an actor or did you just like fall into it?

Speaker 2

I I come from a really big family and, like my, one of my brothers was like wanting to become a lawyer. So I was like, well, I'm going to do something that makes just as much money and is as great as that. I'm going to become an actor, which is not the trajectory for that, I don't know. I think when I was around like 16, 17, something like that, I really was like I really want to be a performer, I really enjoy the arts, something like that. I really was like I really want to be a performer, I really enjoy the arts. I've liked what I've done on stage and, to my mom's credit, back then she never asked me. She never was like, oh, that's not going to happen for you. She just was like, well, how are you going to do it? And I really I liked that sort of perspective on it because she always encouraged me within my artistic endeavors. Like I was always the person who I just I was always.

Speaker 2

I'm, I guess, maybe a better if I'm going to label myself like, a better thing would be like I'm creative, like I enjoy acting, but I also enjoy so many different forms of art. Like I love, like I write a little bit. I have done visual art, like so I'm a creative acting has been where I've spent most of my, I guess, my time and energy in that way. And also, like I said, I don't know if either of you have come from big families or not. Like, I come from a family, I'm one of seven, okay, and I'm in the middle. So like I definitely have this thing of like the Brady Bunch where I'm like Marsha, like I'm like I'm here, like see me, like pay attention, that like I'm like I'm here, like see me, like pay attention, that kind of a thing is.

Speaker 1

I'm sure that plays into me wanting to be an actor back then too. Yeah, for sure. No, I'm the oldest of three girls and so, yes, too much attention was on me, and same for my also love birth order.

Speaker 2

So you're the oldest, cassie, you're the youngest, oldest of three. Yeah, no, I find that all fascinating and in my the structure in my family it was it almost literally was the brady bunch, like I have three older sisters and then all the boys came, and then all the boys came after so. So, yeah it's like, yeah, it's an interesting thing, but so we've got oldest, middle and baby here.

Speaker 3

Yeah. What a dynamic yeah, so.

Speaker 1

Paul, I know you said you you've acted in a lot of indie things and you don't think there's anything that anybody I mean somebody, of course, but most people wouldn't recognize it.

Speaker 2

It wouldn't just be able to say oh, I know that movie I've worked with. I think people would know the names of the like I've worked with some. Really, I'll name drop here for a second. I've worked with Woody Harrelson. I've worked with Susan Sarandon. I've worked with Elliot Page. I've worked with Elliot Page. I've worked with Cillian Murphy. Like I've worked with. I've worked on film projects that are actually, yeah, there's some big budget stuff and I had an amazing time.

Speaker 2

The movies themselves, like when I was working with Woody Harrelson. The movie is called Wilson. Again, it's a little bit indie. Maybe some people have seen it, maybe some people haven't Like. So I guess maybe I'm downplaying it too much, like I've definitely. I've worked with a lot of really amazing performers and had the opportunities to do that.

Speaker 1

So yeah, so can you think of what stands out to you about your most interesting experience or situation in Hollywood?

Speaker 2

To kind of relate it to the show, would I would kind of relate it to to the show, I think, something for myself. I think this might tie in actually to your question too about like how, why did you, why'd you get into all this? The arts and acting and stuff has always been a space where people are, especially people that are queer, are accepted. I don't know, I don't know that there's really been a at least in my experience. There hasn't really been a time where I've experienced rampant homophobia, and maybe that wasn't something that was front and center in my mind when I was like, I don't know, I chuckle, I was.

Speaker 2

I saw the other day on there's that really old sketch comedy show from the BBC and there's it's the. What is it? There's little sketches in the character. He's like I'm the only gay in the village and like his whole routine is. He's like I'm an actor and he's like like nobody's ever seen a gay actor before. Like the whole joke is that it's like, well, actually, yeah, they have. I feel like that may have played some not maybe consciously in my decisions to participate in that, but my, the family that I grew up in there was a lot of us. It was very religious. So like there was just an interesting, I wouldn't say well-balanced thing in that experience, like my family was not accepting, still is very not accepting, and yet my family also was like pursue the arts. And I'm like the arts is not a space that generally I don't know like it, just there's like this these, these two things don't seem to go together.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

So, in roles that you play, do you normally play queer roles.

Speaker 2

I have, yeah, and I would say that I play a spectrum. I play a spectrum of a lot of fun, different things. There's a movie that I was in called Imperfect Sky. To me, the character that I played it is so heartbreaking because he is in love with another, this other man and the other man. There's this moment where he's like oh wait, no, we're not a thing. And my whole line is like I'm like and he's like no, I thought you knew that, like, I thought you understood, like, I'm not really looking for, like, this big queer relationship with you. I'm more straight than not and like, and for me and my character, it's that moment and I love it so much because it's like no, I didn't know that, like, like. So so I am, I am, I do play queer roles. I also play, I play a lot, I'll play around with whatever, yeah, so yeah I wouldn't say that's my niche per se.

Speaker 2

I would say maybe more so. Like I feel like my. The roles that I've been cast in are. I've done a lot of like horror films. I've done a lot of stuff Like I don't know. I always laugh because directors have often cast me in roles where I die. So maybe that would be more of the trope than my sexuality. I don't know.

Acting Roles and Representation

Speaker 1

Paul, do you have any particular feelings about straight actors playing gay roles?

Speaker 2

Well, I feel like it would. I, as an actor, like I, I've always come from the school of thought that it's like it's fake, so like, like we're telling a story, so whatever we need to do to like tell the best story possible is where I've been. That being said, though, I will say like I feel like I'm shifting slightly in that, only from the perspective of opportunity.

Speaker 2

Like I feel like opportunity is important and it's yeah, so like I even think of if I can tie it into like even it's. I wish that there would be more opportunity for not just people that are queer to play the queer roles, but even people that are. It's like if you have a, if you have a role that's written for someone with, like, a very visible physical disability, maybe let's consider using that, let's actually look, let's go out and find people that would, that would be able to do that like because they have, I don't know. Again, going to. I guess I would always go to trying to tell a really good story and I don't know, I'm not sure if I'm. I feel like I maybe am wishy-washy in what I'm saying a little bit, but traditionally I've just always been like it's all about the story, right, but I can see the, I can see where it's like at some point.

Speaker 1

It's like aren't, don't you have, don't you straight people have, enough straight roles to play? Why are you taking over the gay role?

Speaker 2

Right, right, right, right, and there's a and there's a, there's an. There is an instance I'm thinking of and I can't remember the title of the film and I think it's interesting because the culture that we live in right now we have celebrity I'm going to use Scarlett Johansson and without a big name, it's interesting and it's really challenging to get movies to get traction. That's just the nature of the beast. But I haven't followed the story super closely, but I'm going to reference it and I think this is from a couple of years back.

Speaker 2

But there was a movie and Scarlett Johansson was set to play the lead and I believe that the role was specifically for someone who was trans and there was a big backlash and the movie did not get made. And I look at that and I feel like that is I'm sad that the movie didn't get made right, but part of the backlash was it was people were like, well, no, that role should be played by someone who is trans. Right, right, and I'm not just seeing how that, I don't know. I, I guess I I'm curious if you have any thoughts or input too, because because it's like that for me, it's that thing where it's like there's this big machine that is built, that is just going and rolling down the hill and like so that story didn't get made. But do we want to dismantle that machine and, like build a different one? Is that what the conversation is, or do we want to tell that story? There's layers to this question, I feel like yeah, you're right there.

Speaker 1

There is definitely the balance of, or the consideration of, if we have this big name person who isn't actually from this particular demographic. Is it, is it worth? Is the story itself so powerful and going to really inform people so much that it's important to use leverage someone's fame in place of authenticity so that the story gets made?

Speaker 2

right. Yeah, I don't know. Well, I don't know. Well, I don't know either. I mean it's. It also could be argued that if that store I don't know that I would. I will say this like, and I'm going to be echoing, I think, some things that I've heard recently from just other actors that are that in the celebrity realm, but I would love it if more stories and movies, uh, were being told by people that love to make movies and not so much just corporations right, yeah, that's exactly so yeah, I agree and maybe to play more of devil's advocate advocate along this line too, like finding a trans actor to play that role.

Speaker 2

Maybe that would launch them into something, so they would become a Scarlett Johansson.

Speaker 1

Exactly Yep. So I want to shift gears a little bit, your mom and family being really supportive of your acting, but even still not supportive of your sexuality. What role does religion, geographic location, have you think, on your experience growing up?

Speaker 2

I would also add into that the time in which that I grew up, definitely the geographic location living in the midwest. Actually I'm not, I'm not totally sure. Is minnesota considered part? I don't think it's. Is it part of the bible belt?

Speaker 3

yeah, but minnesota is pretty open, though people are pretty open yeah, it might be legalized there for a very long time of all of the places in the midwest.

Speaker 2

Yeah, no, like minnesota is more like politically leaning liberal and it's open and there's actually a wonderful queer community here. So like that has been a blessing in my life. I did grow up in a small town in minnesota. Definitely, religion and I think that probably the biggest thing for my family and just in my experience religion played a huge part and it still does in my family's unwillingness to just not be homophobic. Be homophobic it's something that I have grappled with quite a bit where I'm just like, I will say, my family, my siblings, they are kind, good-hearted people, the essence of who they are, but they choose this religious ideology that does not allow them to love.

Speaker 2

I guess, yeah, it doesn't allow that. So they're choosing that, which is in direct opposition of who I know them to be, and I find that to be so sad. I find that to be just heartbreakingly sad. So religion definitely played a huge part in all of that. Did either of you grow up? I want to go back because I know that you have an episode of the podcast. I think it's one of the first ones you did and I want to go back and kind of take a listen but for our purposes now, did either of you grow up, religious or no?

Speaker 3

Me very religious. I grew up in Pentecostal church in Jamaica and in a religious homophobicobic country and homophobic in a very Christian country, very religious church. Three, four times a week long dresses and Pentecostal, you know church. You cannot wear pants, you cannot pierce your ears. Your dress gotta be below your knees, so I do get it. I actually was put out at 15 because of my sexuality you were yes, so I can relate to. I mean you probably weren't put up, but I can relate to being I can.

Speaker 2

I wasn't put out in the way probably that you were and I. But where I can relate to you, cassie, is uh, pentecostalism I was raised in the assemblies of god here in the twin cities and pentecostal fundamentalist evangelical yeah, like the going to church a few times a week, that kind of stuff Absolutely. And fun fact I mean I don't necessarily view this part as a negative, but I see where it had an impact on me too. The religion piece started to play a role in my I never went to public school. I was homeschooled from kindergarten all the way through until I graduated. Role in my.

Speaker 2

I never went to public school. I was homeschooled from kindergarten all the way through until I graduated. So like I never stepped foot in a public school and part of that had not part of that. A lot of that had to do with religion. But I will add in fortunately my parents were smart and wise enough to in the homeschool piece they I did a satellite school, so there was some oversight. So I did get a. Really I got a great education. It just had some quirks to it.

Speaker 3

Right, I mean I'm borderline atheist at this point, same. So, because for me, I think religions are designed to lie to people and it's a way for them to hate what's not like them. To lie to people and it's a way for them to hate what's not like them, and in in that way, I mean it in a sense of okay, well, I'm gonna tell you what my, what I think is right in this religion or denomination, whatever it is. And if you're not this way, then you're going to hell, which I don't believe. Hell even exists and all those things you know.

Speaker 3

So it it's kind of like a cult religion yeah, pretty much a cult, and unfortunately it's a cult where people think it's something good and they follow it because, a place where they say, oh, it's about love, but that's where people learn to hate the most, and it's within these religions and it's all of them. The hate that comes from religion is it's crazy to me all the time, like you say god is love, but at the same time, you still use that same god to talk about how you should hate this, you should hate anything that don't look like you or love like you, or worship like you. Even amongst religion, they hate each other because they don't look like you or love like you or worship like you. Even amongst religion, they hate each other because they don't have the same beliefs.

Speaker 2

And you're hitting on something that I have this is more so in the last, actually, like two or three years but really unpacking and really dealing, I guess, with that religious trauma that I experienced and really sorting through it, something that you said in there oh, does it hit close to home. It's that piece of conformity where it's like I'm going to air quote love you as long as you conform, as long as you wear those dresses that go past your knees. We had friends that we grew up around and they had to. The dresses needed to be past their knees. That wasn't in the church I grew up in and also so embarrassing I was thinking about that. We went on a homeschool group. The parents made the young women wear their dresses over their snowsuit while they were skiing, to cover up their legs, even though it's like you're in a snowsuit, like what are you doing to your children? Like, because that's modesty, and I'm like they're in a snowsuit. I'm sorry this is not sexy Like this.

Speaker 1

Oh but you're bringing more attention to them by putting, by making them, I mean they're standing out. Who wears a dress out over top of them.

Speaker 2

If modesty is the goal, you are making them so, so obvious and so out there that it's impossible to not be noticed it's that exactly, and it's that point where it's like it all goes back to it's like but you're following the rules, you're following the letter of those legalistic legalism. I don't know, it's stuff like that. Just it spins my head around and I'm really grateful to be not believing that anymore. Like like you, cassie, I'm really grateful to have taken the time these past few years to really dig into what do I believe, and not only what do I believe, but what serves me and I. That would be blasphemy in what I grew up in.

Speaker 3

Oh yeah, same here. Yes, yep, you look back something and I kind of. I was so brainwashed I was a part of that cult. I was a younger child girl because until I was probably around 10, 11, I thought it was right. You know, I was like man, I got to go to church. I got to go to church. You cannot pierce the ears, you cannot do this. The only good thing that came from it was I had friends and community from but and nothing else good came from it. Everything else came from. I realized it was just a lie. It was just it was. It was so hateful where if I wasn't strong, I probably could have committed suicide. If I wasn't a strong willed person, to how much I would have hated my own self because of the teachings of, quote-unquote, the Bible and God or whatever you know.

Speaker 2

They're all this nonsense and that's where I start to question within faith circles and with in what I grew up in and things like that is. It's that challenging that thought, like I've even I have had some conversations with my family, with my sisters, where I can relate to that, cassie, unfortunately, I can relate to like really internalizing for my this is me speaking for myself, not to you, cassie, but this is from my own experience Like I internalized a lot of that messaging of I am not worthy, that I am broken and, dear God, do I wish, cassie, that I would have done what you did at that age? I did not really untangle from a lot of this until more recently and it took me a really long time but I did it. But what you're touching on there that really resonates for me is it's that piece where it's like you're preaching love. I know, like within my family and it sounds like you can relate to this, cassie, but my family would say we do love you, but it's tough love, like it's like we need you to conform to this and once you do, you must follow this, otherwise I don't know that they've actually taken it quite that far. Well then, I'm like, yeah, well then, what? No-transcript committing suicide and how do you address that? What is your role in that? What is your part in that? And not just being like, well, that has nothing to do, it's like that has nothing to do with you doesn't work for me.

Breaking Free from Religious Trauma

Speaker 2

I grew up in this family. Part of my experience these past couple of years has specifically been I have been in intense therapy and support groups to untangle from these things that I've internalized these beliefs, that I have been in intense therapy and support groups to untangle from these things, that I've internalized these beliefs that I have, that I am broken simply for existing, simply for being queer. Grappling with that has been really challenging and hard. I also grew up like in the 1990s it was a really gross time, for I think the term is purity culture where it just it was nobody had sex, nobody had like it, just really a really weird but also just like really stunting space and place to be like. Obviously, as one who grew up and was homeschooled, oh my God, my, my dad gave me the sex talk, I think, when I was 16. Newsflash, that's too old.

Speaker 2

But, I don't know I'm ranting on some of this. It's just it's an interesting experience to have had and, as I'm talking to more people than even here and listening to what you're saying, cassie, it's like there's a lot of this and I think to maybe something we said before we started rolling too. I think it's up to us.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it's definitely up to us, Because I was told by my sister one time that she don't want to see me go to hell. That's why she wanted me to change you remember, when she was having a conversation she said I don't want to see you go to hell. So I want you to and I'm like I said hell don't exist and she's like I'll see. I'm like, okay, well, we'll see, Well, we'll see when it comes to me Because I'll deal with it.

Speaker 3

I deal with the consequences. If me being true to myself and be happy is going to put me in hell, then I'll just be happy in hell.

Speaker 2

I dig that. Yeah, that's something that I've been, yeah, thinking about and looking into and all these things, and I think something that was for me who I really believed all of that, like I really believed all that up until several years ago and it was something where I started to dig into. I was like where did the Bible come from? Like where did this actually? And I mean that literally it's like wait, and as I started to look into it, I was like wait a minute.

Speaker 2

This is not what I was told. This is a collection of what I'm going to call stories.

Speaker 1

Yeah, fables.

Speaker 2

Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1

Or parables.

Speaker 2

Fables, parables, and there's some really nice things that.

Speaker 2

I can learn in some of that, where it's like, actually, some of the things that I can learn in there are very moral, very cool. It's like some of that is really nice, really lovely, and also, I will say, too, like something religions really have like community figured out. Like I, there's some things that being part of like the church that I grew up with, where I was like, oh yeah, there's a really nice, there's a nice community here, there's a nice way to spend some time in that way and they I feel like religions also do really well. It's like like some of that stuff. It's like, yeah, when somebody dies, there's a way that they have kind of built in community and a way to mourn, and it's like, yeah, there's some really good things that I think religion has. There's some really good things that are in the Bible.

Speaker 2

But yeah, it wasn't until I asked those questions and really started to be like, wait a minute, where did this come from? That I was able to, for me, walk away from it. I'm in a point in life where I I'm not having a label on what I believe. I believe that there's more, but I don't and I just leave it at that. I'm like, actually I don't have the answers, and I like that, because for such a long time growing up it was like here is the exact this book, and I'm just like, oh my, I don't know everything.

Speaker 1

And I'm okay with it. That's okay, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3

I was rebellious, so it didn't take me long to rebel, so it didn't take me long. Oh gosh, that's.

Speaker 2

I'm also fascinated by all of that Like especially, I feel like I definitely have those traits of a middle child, Like I think middle children are very much known to be people pleasers and I, oh, have I been a people pleaser?

Speaker 3

Yeah, I'm very familiar. She knows it too.

Speaker 1

She definitely is, and that's a luxury of birth order.

Speaker 2

I'm so glad you said it.

Speaker 1

It's true, but yeah. So, paul, what was the tipping point for you? When did you finally say let me start to question? And I know you said the question that made you start to come out of that overbearing influence was where did this come from? But what made you ask the question and what was the tipping point for you? To let your family know that this is who I am.

Speaker 2

So there wasn't like one moment. It was many little things along the way. It was many little things along the way. I feel like my story probably is relatable for some people, but there was a dynamic at play in my family unit where I was out in my very early 20s. My family knew that I was queer. It was very similar to what we were seeing, though, in the world at large at that point in time, because my family, while they knew that, we just never acknowledged it Like it was kind of like that don't ask, don't tell experience and I, at that point I just I chose to. I was looking around at my family and I was like needing acceptance and all that I did not push. And I did not push my like I had boyfriends and I never would bring them around. I just in the family circle. It just was never acknowledged that I was queer, while everybody knew Like it was a. I will say it was a very damaging experience. I did not have the I'm not going to totally dog myself, but like who I am now. I have more of a, I have more, I'm healthier and I would push back in a bigger way, but at that point I did what I felt like I needed to do to survive, and so that went on for a long time.

Speaker 2

And more more recently in the past several years, I did get to a point where I was like questioning, I was having some I guess I would say suicidal tendencies or just idea where I was. They were just very slight and I was like I'm not comfortable with this anymore, I'm not. And I went to therapy and I was like I do not like this. I want to be, I want to live a life that I'm excited to live and I'm not and I'm not. So that was a point where I really started to look at myself and be like why am I feeling this way and why am I? And that's when I started to question more of like, wait a minute, these beliefs like what? This thing that I've been told up for my whole life, like that I am less than and that I am just inherently just for being born like this sinner who's going to be thrown into hell, and starting to look at those things. And it was a gradual process with my belief system.

Speaker 2

Like I joined a meetup group where it was called LGBTQ Christians and it was kind of meeting with other queers that were grappling with religion and trying to do it in a really good way, and there was a point where I was like this isn't serving me anymore. This isn't working. I can't speak to the people in the group because they were really lovely and it was a stepping stone for me, but I just was like something in this isn't no. This seems like I'm trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. This doesn't work.

Speaker 2

And I came across a really dense theological book that was written back in the 80s and it's called Christianity, social Tolerance and Homosexuality. My gosh, it was so good. There's just moments in the book and he just dissected the Hebrew and the Greek language and he showed how horrible the translations are and they do not reflect the reality of the times when that was written. So they are not saying what. Current translators are getting it wrong. And the Bible does not hate me and it makes me question, though it does make me question as I've dug into things. It does not make sense to me why people within religion seem to take this mantle of homophobia on. It doesn't make sense. I'm like this isn't. The stuff that I'm seeing does not reflect. Where did this come from? The stuff that I'm seeing?

Speaker 1

does not reflect. Where did this come from? I mean, part of it is not just errors in translation, but whole books being taken out.

Speaker 2

Yeah, exactly All of that. So I'm so happy. Can I just say, too, I reached a point in my own journey. I don't care anymore. I don't care what people in the churches say.

Speaker 1

I don't care anymore. I don't care what people in the churches say. I actually am just like, yeah, you just are set out to believe what you them, and I'm really glad that you realize that you yourself, you being who you are, is not the problem. It's not the thing that's making you sad, it's the message that you're getting about that from outside influences that's causing your feelings. So I'm really glad.

Speaker 2

It took me a long time.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it can. It definitely can, unless you're rebellious.

Speaker 2

Well, and actually to that point, I have a bunch of nieces and nephews and when I see them being, quote unquote, rebellious not maybe in a lot of different ways, but I think questioning authority and being a bit rebellious I'm like like having agency over yourself in some of those ways is so healthy.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it is not just forming to everything.

Speaker 2

Yeah, not conforming to everything and not being like I just have to rant about this too Like within what I grew up in, there was such a sense of not having bodily autonomy, not having my own say in what happened to my body.

Speaker 2

Like I oh my God, I was so like looking back on it it's so unhealthy Like my grandma one time. She was again different time but like she was, she wanted she had to kiss all of us on the lips. I do not know why, like it was just something that she wanted to do. I was like kicking and screaming and trying to get away and my parents forced me to do this thing Like this is not okay.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 2

This is also like that. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

I know people like that and also we've swung the other way, and to an extreme in a lot of ways with child rearing, about being well, well being too I forgot the phrase for it but with gentle parenting and things like that. But there are some things that we definitely get right, which is that children should have the autonomy, if I don't want to give you a hug. Yes, I don't have to give you a hug. If I don't want you to pick me up, then you don't get to do that.

Speaker 2

So I'm so with you on that. Yep, yep, give some autonomy. And yes, also, there's too far where it's like yeah write them in like come on, write them in control, control your child, yeah.

Men Who Read Book Club

Speaker 1

A little bit. I'm going to shift gears in the last few minutes that we have here. Just want to hear a little bit about your Men who Read book club. Why did you start that? And we're coming up on seven years here?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I'm so happy to be a part of the group of men yeah, men who Read In 2019,. I was looking around. I was like it actually came out of the actual book club, came out of therapy. I was seeing a therapist and he's like you keep talking about books, have you ever thought about, like I don't know, starting a book club or something? I was like, no, I hadn't. So it was a really, it was a good thing. And I started to look around.

Speaker 2

I did approach a women's only book club and I was like you're in my area, I know that it's I don't know, like I'm trying to find something. And they were like hell, no, go away. And so I was like, okay, you, they had it figured out. I was like women's book clubs have it so figured out? And I'm like I'm going to borrow from that. So I started a book club.

Speaker 2

At the time it was just for gay men. I started the gay men who read book club and, yeah, actually some. I had some interest from his name's Andrewrew. He's been coming for a long time and he was like he's like I'm not gay, but I could I come to your book club and it reminded me of me. I was like, oh, he's doing what I did, yeah and yeah. So we just made an adjustment and I was like we've had a good time. It's a space for all of it's men typically. I wish this wasn't so, but maybe don't read quite as much as women do and I want to help influence that in the ways that I can. And we've had amazing conversations about every topic under the sun we've read. So I think we're going on book 76 now. So, like philosophy, religion, I mean, we've run the gamut. It's something I'm very proud of and, yeah, very happy to have had a hand in helping create if you are interested in learning more about the like the jamaican culture when it comes to homophobia there is a book called funny girl

Speaker 3

oh yeah girl but not the funny girl.

Speaker 1

You gotta let me spell it for you g y a-a-l, g-y-a-l. Funny girl yeah funny gal yeah oh interesting yeah, and the author. She was a guest on our show, angelique angelique I can't remember her last name now, but, yeah, brilliant woman. And we haven't had an opportunity to read the book, but she gave us some insights into it and just not having time to read that much, but it's definitely on our list. I'll send you the link to the book.

Speaker 2

Thank you.

Speaker 1

And it was like hard. I watch a lot of TV, a lot of movies, and so being asked what's your favorite movie or show is hard. But I have like a top five, so give me like top three of your favorite books.

Speaker 2

Top three of my favorite? Oh my gosh, this is a hard question. I'm going to, I'm going to pull from my book club and we only read nonfiction books in book club and I'm going to tell you the top three. I'm looking at my bookshelf here, the first one that this would be the top of all time from what we've read, and it is the Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks.

Speaker 1

Oh yes.

Speaker 2

It is as a book. It is so powerful and so well written Like it is stunning, so that would be the very top from what we've read. Also, for myself, like one that really had a really positive impact, for obvious reasons, if people have read the book but it's called Educated by Tara Westover and I read that one a couple of years ago and the timing could not have been better. She grew up in a very religious family and it was very culty and very she didn't go to school and then she finally did go to school and it opened up like this whole world for her and for obvious reasons that it spoke to me. Yeah, and the third one I would say is a really it's not maybe as it's doesn't deal in that world as much, but it's called crying in h mart and it's about a woman and it's all about food.

Speaker 2

She is. She writes so beautifully about like she is she balanced throughout the book. It's a memoir. She talks about like she is she throughout the book. It's a memoir. She talks about like having the Korean American experience and her mom passes away and she kind of walks through grief, but she talks about all these experiences with food and if you want to read something and like it makes me so hungry when I was reading it. It's amazing. So those would be my top three that I can think of off the top of my head.

Speaker 1

Nice and if somebody wants to, if a guy wants to join your book club, where can he find you?

Speaker 2

He can find me. All of that is actually on my general website, which is IamPaulCramcom, so all that info about the book club is on there and that's actually a spot. People who just generally find me too.

Speaker 3

All right, perfect, okay. So, paul, you had an experience that I'm sure there are a ton of people right now having that experience, especially with the shift in culture in society today. What advice would you give to someone that's in a situation where they're struggling with religion and being themselves and trying to navigate family, being themselves and just living their truth?

Speaker 2

The advice I would give is to reach outside of your family unit and find support, like a support group of sorts, or find a support system however you are able to be at, googling something, finding chat rooms. Find something that is outside of the circle that is holding you in.

Speaker 3

Very nice. Thanks, paul. Okay, listeners. There you have it. Paul Cramp is an artist and an actor and a founder of Men who Read Book Club. He's an advocate who has a passion for literacy and bringing awareness to the power of books. With strong determination, paul overcame fundamental and traditional quote-unquote Christian values and is living his unapologetic truth. Thank you, paul, for being on A Queer Understanding. We really enjoyed the conversation.

Speaker 2

Thanks so much for having me both. I enjoyed it.

Speaker 1

Thank you.

Speaker 2

Paul.