From Personal Challenge to National Change: Julie Sawchuk's Mission for Universal Accessibility

Julie Sawchuk B.Sc., B.Ed., RHFAC
As a Best Selling Author, Speaker, Educator and Accessibility Strategist, Julie is committed to forming positive, strong, and responsive relationships that help you create accessible spaces. After sustaining a spinal cord injury in 2015, Julie became aware of the everyday challenge of living in a world not built with accessibility
in mind, and so began her journey as an accessibility strategist. She earned the Rick
Hansen Foundation Accessibility Certification and launched Sawchuk Accessible Solutions, where she consults, completes accessibility ratings and educates folks in the design and construction industry all across Canada.

In 2022, Julie was chosen by the Minister of Seniors and Accessibility to Chair the
review of the Design of Public Spaces for the Province of Ontario. Julie was also a
key member of the Canadian Standards Association’s Accessible Dwellings
Technical Committee and is the Vice Chair of the Huron County Accessibility
Advisory Committee.

Whether it's retrofitting an existing building or starting from scratch, Julie
speaks to audiences of architects, facilities managers, engineers and builders to
achieve meaningful levels of accessibility for private homes, international
airports and everything in between.

Julies's Books:
Building Better Bathrooms https://www.amazon.com/Building-Better-Bathrooms-Connecting-accessible-ebook/dp/B08XZMZZJF/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2M2O3JQUVZ4OH&keywords=julie+sawchuk&qid=1694541388&sprefix=julie+sawchuk%2Caps%2C132&sr=8-1

Build Your Space  https://www.amazon.com/Build-YOUR-Space-create-accessible/dp/1999238400/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2M2O3JQUVZ4OH&keywords=julie+sawchuk&qid=1694541441&sprefix=julie+sawchuk%2Caps%2C132&sr=8-2

Folks can contact me at my website www.juliesawchuk.com

Transcript

[Janet]: 0:44

Hello everyone and thank you for being with us today. Our guest is Julie Sawchuck and she is the owner of Sawchuck Accessible Solutions. Julie, thank you for being with us today.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 0:58

Hello Janet, thank you for having me.

[Janet]: 1:01

Yes, Julie, I would like you to share your personal story of how you became an accessibility specialist.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 1:11

Right, it was not something that I planned. I was a high school teacher and teaching environmental science and biology and living my life with two kids and a husband on a 10 acre farm. And when I turned 40, I started training to do triathlons in the summertime. And that's what took me out on the road on July 29th. 2015 I was training on my bike when I was hit by a car. The driver drove right into the back of me and I was thrown into the ditch 30 feet, landed on my forehead, my helmet saved my life. But all of the stuff that happens when you have a major collision like that, the thing that was... not fixable was my spinal cord injury. When I hit the ditch or when he hit me, my T4 vertebrae exploded and shot a bone fragment into my spinal cord. And when that happened, it caused paralysis and that's the kind of thing that can't be repaired by medicine. So in that split second of distracted driving, I sustained a spinal cord injury that left me with paralysis requiring the use of a manual wheelchair. And I joined the world's largest minority population, that of people with disabilities. And that has totally changed my life. It has not been easy. It is still not easy. It has certainly gotten better in terms of, you know, I have recovered some core function. I can dress myself and I figured out, you know, a lot of the things that you need to be able to do differently when you have a spinal cord injury, bowel and bladder issues for one thing, skin integrity, all of that kind of stuff, the stuff that's not obvious, the wheelchair is the most obvious thing. But coming... coming home to a house that was not accessible and coming to a community that was not built with accessibility, which is literally every community like on the planet, I realized how inaccessible. our spaces are and that I wanted to do something about it. So I started talking about it and the more I talked about it, the more people listened and asked questions. And here I am today, owning my own business as an accessibility strategist. I'm an author, I'm a speaker and an educator, and I, I get a call every day from somebody new wanting help.

[Janet]: 4:17

Well, that's great. I love your title, accessibility strategist.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 4:22

Yeah.

[Janet]: 4:22

I've never heard that. So can you tell me, Julie, can you describe the moment you realized the profound impact that an accessible home had on your energy and overall wellbeing?

[Julie Sawchuk]: 4:38

So when I came home from rehab hospital, I was there for three months and I knew I was coming home to our house that was a 115 year old farmhouse on 10 acres with a gravel driveway that was like addition on addition on addition. One of those old farmhouses that's kind of leany and saggy and narrow doors and really thick walls and that kind of stuff. So coming home to that house, I knew it was not going to be easy. And we didn't exactly know whether we were going to stay in that house, renovate it or build a new house or move. And we went through all of those options to realize that the most the thing that made the most sense that we could stay in our community was to build a new house. And so we used the insurance money from my accident. to build this house that we live in now. And it took us two and a half years to make that happen for all sorts of reasons and we can get into those later. But what happened was we moved here from that house to this house. It was like 30 feet away and moving in here at Christmas time. Um, you know, it was exciting. We had the family here. It was clean and bright and white and lovely big windows and everything. And about two weeks after Christmas, I thought, what, why do I feel different? What's, what is this feeling that I have? And what I decided was that it was all about energy and that actually felt like I had more energy. that I could participate in family life more. I had more energy to do my fitness activities and my rehab and go to physiotherapy and stuff like that. And what I realized, I started to put the pieces together was that all of life that was happening in the old farmhouse, in my non-accessible house, it was all happening. in a way that required more energy. So showering, for example, getting into the little bathroom that we had and trying to manipulate two sets of wheels because I had a shower commode plus my wheelchair and the bathroom wasn't big enough for both. So I had to kind of juggle mobility devices myself so that I could just have a shower. And that's just one example, but everything I did in that house. sucked a little, cost a little bit more energy tokens, right? If you have a hundred energy tokens in a day and you use 25 of them just having a shower, it doesn't leave much for all of the rest of the things that you want to do with your day. And so I living here for, you know, two, three, four weeks and months and finding that I actually felt better. I physically felt better. Emotionally, I felt better. I had less nerve pain. All of these things we're adding up to. make me realize that accessibility equals energy.

[Janet]: 8:16

I think that's a great point and I imagine that must have been extremely important for you to Finally live in a home that allowed you to do more things because you had two young children at the time, correct?

[Julie Sawchuk]: 8:32

Yeah, I did. Yeah, they were seven and 10 when my accident happened. And, you know, fun, age, lots of things I want to do activities and games and sports and all that kind of stuff. And I love to cook and being able to have a completely accessible kitchen meant that I could do everything. You know, with the exception of the really giant pot of hot pasta water. I can cook, I can bake, I can see inside the pot as I cook because I can roll under the oven and it's at my height and I'm not reaching over hot controls. So I look at accessibility as a three-legged milking stool. If you can picture a three-legged stool, if you're trying to sit on the top of that stool and one of those legs is short or shorter than the other two legs or absent, entirely so you're on two legs. How comfortable are you to have balance on that stool? Right, you're not comfortable, it's not, it's not. It's not gonna work, right? So if you think about those three legs as safety, independence, and dignity. When you have those three facets in place, you have achieved accessibility and you can sit on that milking stool with confidence and go about your whatever it is milking the cow knowing that you can manage and you don't have to worry about am I sacrificing my safety? What is that sacrifice going to do in the long run? How much energy does it take for me to figure out a way to be more safe or to go to plan B or whatever, right? Like all of these things add up. And when you have achieved safety, independence, and dignity, you have achieved accessibility. And then you have an energy bank to do those things like play with your kids, like cook, like exercise, like contribute to your community. I took time off from working this summer so that I could volunteer in my local town. We have a little theater. And I was able to... spend, I don't know, I probably had a dozen different days this summer that I went and sold 50-50 tickets at our theater. And if I were still living in our old farmhouse, I would not have had the energy to do that. So it really makes a difference.

[Janet]: 11:19

Yeah, I agree with you. And you mentioned several what occupational therapists call activities of daily living or

[Julie Sawchuk]: 11:28

Yes.

[Janet]: 11:29

instrumental activities of daily living like bathing and dressing and you said cooking, going to sell tickets at the local theater. How do you think all of that increased your quality of life?

[Julie Sawchuk]: 11:47

Oh my goodness, I couldn't even quantify it. The joy that comes from being able to do the things that you want to do, not just the things that you have to do. That's what life is about, is finding your joy and being able to participate in that joy, regardless of whether it's knitting. or lifting weights or going for a bike ride, putting on an awesome dress, right? Like whatever it is that brings you joy, it requires energy. And if you don't have the energy to do that thing, then you are missing out on the joys of life.

[Janet]: 12:41

Yeah, I totally agree with you. So obviously changing your environment made a huge impact on your life and your quality of life in general. What were some of the most significant challenges you faced when designing and building your custom wheelchair accessible home?

[Julie Sawchuk]: 13:02

Well, the biggest challenge was we had no idea what we were doing. Accessibility wasn't something that had come into our frame of reference. At any point. I mean, both of our, my husband and my parents were of an age where disability hadn't really crept into their lives and I didn't have any close friends with disabilities. Um, uh, experience with people with disabilities was that of my students and in my classroom and we had, you know, some systems in place to help them function in a science classroom. And I, anyways, that's another story, but the hardest thing about building this house was figuring out what to do because we didn't know what we were doing and we couldn't find local people to help us. the experience of local architects, local designers, contractors was very limited to basic commercial construction. And the nuances of a home designed for accessibility was somewhere out there in the ether that I couldn't find. And I had to do a lot of research. Um, to find examples, to learn, um, and, you know, I did things like I went to people's houses, um, people that I had met post injury, other wheelchair users to see their spaces, to feel them out. Um, my friend, Chris, I went and stayed at her house. I cooked in her kitchen. I used her shower and I kind of, you know, made mental notes, took pictures and put all of that information into our design, eventually. We did 41 different versions of our house plan before we settled on the one that we thought was actually gonna work for us the best. And still I would change it.

[Janet]: 15:18

significant.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 15:19

Yeah, I would change it even now. So you learn as you go

[Janet]: 15:24

Did

[Julie Sawchuk]: 15:24

and.

[Janet]: 15:24

you also... Oh no, go ahead.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 15:29

No, no, you go ahead ask a question.

[Janet]: 15:31

Okay, I was going to ask you, did you also incorporate universal designs in your plans?

[Julie Sawchuk]: 15:40

We did, yes. It wasn't just designed for me. I have two kids and a husband, my husband's six, three. So the counter height that he works at and is comfortable at is very different than the counter height that works for me. We actually have four different heights of counter in the kitchen. We had to figure out what height to put the, you know, the cooktop ventilation system so that he's not hitting his head on it, but that I can still reach it or, you know, operate it. They're all looking at how to design the bathroom so that it works for the kids, but it also can be my backup bathroom. So if something happens in my bathroom and the toilet breaks or whatever, then I have a second option. And I think the kitchen is the best example because it's the space that everybody uses, but universal design is just good design.

[Janet]: 16:41

Yeah, and I think the you having a backup bathroom was just an ingenious choice because

[Julie Sawchuk]: 16:48

Mm.

[Janet]: 16:49

obviously we use a bathroom every day several times a day and you know, something could happen, right? You don't

[Julie Sawchuk]: 16:55

Exactly.

[Janet]: 16:56

know. So that was very smart of you to have a backup. So how did the transition from being an individual seeking accessibility in her own home become an accessibility strategist?

[Julie Sawchuk]: 17:15

Um. Well, I'm a teacher. and you can take the teacher out of the classroom, but you can't stop her from teaching. And so that's basically what I started doing, was I started talking about my experiences. And really the most powerful way to help people change their perspective is through storytelling. And I leveraged the power of storytelling to help people see a different perspective to help them understand that the way they are doing something, whatever it is, a service, designing a space, constructing a trail, whatever, to help them see how they could do that from a perspective that served the needs of more people, specifically people with disabilities. And as I... As I started telling stories, people wanted to learn more. And I realized that this was something that I could actually do as a business. And so I started, um, offering to help people and eventually people. Offered to pay me for my services and that became, um, that became my new thing. Yeah.

[Janet]: 18:42

Well, I imagine it must have been very powerful to, again, be able to work because previously you had a career as a school

[Julie Sawchuk]: 18:50

Mm-hmm.

[Janet]: 18:50

teacher. Then how many how much time did you spend not working after your accident outside the home?

[Julie Sawchuk]: 18:58

a good three years.

[Janet]: 19:01

And how did that make you feel?

[Julie Sawchuk]: 19:04

Oh, it wasn't until I started working again that I recognized that I still had purpose. and

[Janet]: 19:18

Yeah, that's very powerful what you just said.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 19:21

having purpose is really important.

[Janet]: 19:27

I agree with you. It's what makes life worth living. In fact,

[Julie Sawchuk]: 19:31

I'm here.

[Janet]: 19:32

I liken it to, I know my mother for example, she's... been retired for many years and, you know, obviously doesn't have any more kids at home. And I think sometimes she gets sad because she feels like she doesn't have enough purpose

[Julie Sawchuk]: 19:49

Mm-hmm.

[Janet]: 19:49

in her life. And I think that's why it's so important for women especially to find purpose outside of your family.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 19:56

Mm-hmm.

[Janet]: 19:56

Because, you know, at one point your kids leave the house, like you, you have a son that's a senior in high school, your daughter's in college. So eventually taking care of kids anymore. And so your purpose has to extend beyond your role as a mother and your role as a wife.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 20:17

Yep, absolutely. And that purpose for me, if accessibility doesn't exist in a space or a service or a place or a holiday destination or whatever, it makes it really hard for me to, um, to be able to fulfill that purpose. You know, as a volunteer in the community, I volunteer at a space that's accessible. And I wouldn't be able to do that were it not accessible, right? If they didn't have an accessible bathroom or if, you know, parking, if parking weren't possible and I couldn't get into the building or down to the stage, right, all of those things, they all add up so that I can fulfill my purpose as a, as a person and my, my purpose as a volunteer in the community. And like all of those things, it all just has.

[Janet]: 21:15

So what are some of the most common questions or misconceptions that people have about accessibility?

[Julie Sawchuk]: 21:24

Well, the thing that people say most often is... is, oh, I never thought of that before. And it's simply because they have not been exposed to that situation, to the person in their need or the access issue itself. They haven't been educated. They haven't been exposed or influenced. to see the need and the difference that particular thing has. Like the weight of a door, for example. It's very, very common for exterior doors to be heavy or have operating systems that make them difficult to open because of, you know, like wind suction and the vacuum effect and all that kind of thing, right? Especially here in Canada, we like to weatherproof our spaces. And in doing that, we really seal doors. And when you really seal a door, it makes it really difficult to open. So if you don't have a power operated door system, for me to open that door, I expend a ton more energy. And the weight of the door can be adjusted, power door openers can be installed. And the difference is I no longer have to expend that energy just to get into that space. And until you are in a situation where you've got an armload of groceries or a trolley of something or a baby stroller and you're struggling to open a door, you don't realize how the simple application of a power door opener can make a massive difference for so many people.

[Janet]: 23:23

Yeah, I agree with you. When I had my son, which was about 11 years ago, and I remember being at the mall and then having to use the bathroom. And if I were by myself, I was like, how am I supposed to use the bathroom if I have the baby with me? You know, I can't, it's just everything is so difficult. But that was really my first. My first time where I started thinking about accessibility was after, well, this was with my first child. I had her when I was 22, so I wasn't an OT back then, but I lived in Spain and there's a lot less accessibility in parts of Europe than

[Julie Sawchuk]: 24:10

Mm-hmm.

[Janet]: 24:11

here in the US. I had to carry her stroller around everywhere, like

[Julie Sawchuk]: 24:16

Mm-hmm.

[Janet]: 24:17

literally just carry it up and down a you know forget about it if you had to open a door you had to hold it open with your body while you manipulated the stroller with

[Julie Sawchuk]: 24:29

Mm-hmm.

[Janet]: 24:29

an infant in it and that

[Julie Sawchuk]: 24:32

And

[Janet]: 24:32

really

[Julie Sawchuk]: 24:33

the space

[Janet]: 24:33

made me

[Julie Sawchuk]: 24:33

that

[Janet]: 24:34

start

[Julie Sawchuk]: 24:34

a mobility

[Janet]: 24:34

thinking about

[Julie Sawchuk]: 24:34

device

[Janet]: 24:34

how

[Julie Sawchuk]: 24:35

takes,

[Janet]: 24:35

difficult

[Julie Sawchuk]: 24:36

right? Like the space that the

[Janet]: 24:38

yeah

[Julie Sawchuk]: 24:38

stroller takes or the space that a wheelchair takes, it's square footage. And that's one of the other misconceptions is like, I mean, the international symbol of accessibility is a wheelchair, right? So when people start talking about accessibility, they automatically think about people who use wheelchairs, but it's really... I think it's like 8% of people with disabilities actually use a wheelchair. So it's definitely not the majority of people with disabilities. In fact, most people with disabilities, their disability is invisible. You can't see it.

[Janet]: 25:14

Yeah,

[Julie Sawchuk]: 25:14

They don't wear

[Janet]: 25:15

it is.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 25:15

it like a wheelchair.

[Janet]: 25:16

Well, for example, arthritis is the number one disability in the US. Sometimes it's visible, you know, when the arthritis is, you know, something like rheumatoid arthritis and deforms joints.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 25:29

Mm-hmm.

[Janet]: 25:30

But for most people, it's invisible. And I can tell you just the same example that you used opening a door from a wheelchair. It is as hard for someone who has arthritis in their shoulders, where they don't have the range of motion, they don't have the strength. And doing things like that, not only is it putting them in danger for worsening their condition, or keeping them from being able to enter that building, but it's going to put them in pain for hours after that.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 26:03

Exactly. Yep. Which also sucks energy, right? Like mental energy of

[Janet]: 26:08

Exactly.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 26:09

having to put that pain on the back burner so that you can focus on the conversation that you're having at the lunch at the restaurant where you just struggle to open the door, right? Like pain is the invisible disability. Like of anything, you can't see it ever. And it- consumes a tremendous amount of energy. Like today, for example, I have a tremendous amount of nerve pain, but can you tell looking at me? No, you can't tell. But I am already thinking about how looking forward I am to going to bed tonight, because it means I get to sleep and it will go away. And then I wake up in the morning and hopefully it's gone. Usually it is. But it's on my mind all the time. Yep.

[Janet]: 27:03

Yeah. Can you tell me how the principles of universal design, if there's any specific principle that you use more than others, but how they have benefited you and then other people with disabilities just thinking about the community?

[Julie Sawchuk]: 27:26

I think the one that stands out the most for me is ease of use. Because it's so ubiquitous. It applies to a website. It applies to a shower bench. It applies to a faucet. And like making things so that there are less steps required for the function of that thing, whatever it is. That is, I think, the most important principle of universal design is ease of use. Because the easier it is,

[Janet]: 28:08

Yeah,

[Julie Sawchuk]: 28:08

the less energy

[Janet]: 28:09

and

[Julie Sawchuk]: 28:09

it

[Janet]: 28:09

I

[Julie Sawchuk]: 28:09

consumes.

[Janet]: 28:09

think like, yeah, and like you said, you can find it in so many different features and I love it when you have accessible features that also work as a universal design feature,

[Julie Sawchuk]: 28:24

Yeah, and

[Janet]: 28:25

like the

[Julie Sawchuk]: 28:25

my

[Janet]: 28:25

curbless shower. I love

[Julie Sawchuk]: 28:26

back,

[Janet]: 28:26

that.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 28:27

yeah, back to my kitchen. So I have two sinks. I have a dishwashing sink that's at standard kitchen height, 36 inches, and then I have a lower sink that's at, what's that one, at 32 inches. And so it's a roll under sink, and it's like my food prep sink and my hand washing sink and whatnot. And my niece, who is... now 10. She was here last year. They live in Newfoundland. So they're not here very often. But her coming into my kitchen and walking right up to my little sink and washing her hands and turning around and looking at me and saying, Auntie Julie, this sink was designed just for me. Right?

[Janet]: 29:09

Hahaha

[Julie Sawchuk]: 29:09

Like it works for everybody. Everybody should have a kid size sink.

[Janet]: 29:15

Yeah, I agree and their hands are dirty so often,

[Julie Sawchuk]: 29:20

Yes.

[Janet]: 29:20

right? Their hands and their face.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 29:23

Exactly.

[Janet]: 29:24

So your commitment to improving accessibility has led you to various roles, including chairing the standards development committee for the review of the design of public spaces under the AODA. What are some takeaways or insights from this experience?

[Julie Sawchuk]: 29:45

So the AODA here in Ontario is very similar to the ADA in the US. It's the legislation that organizations are required to abide by. It has been a tremendous learning experience for me because of the people that I have met in the process of chairing this committee. So we have people from across the province. all majority of which have disabilities or represent an organization that represents people with disabilities, like Easterseals, for example. And just being able to hear from their experiences how legislation works from their perspective in designing public spaces. And gaining their insights and being able to sort of layer that into my own experiences and like literally use it in my teaching, right? And helping designers and contractors and occupational therapists and everybody involved in that realm of physical space construction, renovation. interior design, landscape, all of that, being able to just take those experiences and incorporate that into to add more color to the teaching that I do. It's been incredibly rewarding. I mean, aside from the fact that I'm hoping that we're actually going to be changing the laws in the province to be higher, right? Building code is... the base, it's the minimum standard. And I want to see the legislation support more accessibility in all of those decisions.

[Janet]: 31:45

And will that only apply to public buildings or will it also apply to how new homes are built?

[Julie Sawchuk]: 31:53

It will not apply to new homes, unfortunately. Yeah, it will just apply to public spaces, but it does apply to multi-unit residential buildings. So condos, apartment buildings, that kind of thing, but not to individual homes.

[Janet]: 32:11

As the Vice Chair of the Huron County Accessibility Advisory Committee, what initiatives or projects are you currently working on and what impact do you hope that they will have on the community?

[Julie Sawchuk]: 32:26

Well, one that just landed in my inbox last night, our local municipality, they, since COVID, they have been meeting on the stage at our local community theater, because there's not, there wasn't a space big enough where they could be like spread out enough to still have in-person meetings. So they've been meeting on the stage because their chamber, they're like, meeting chamber was too small and you know all that. So anyways they are renovating a space and because they are a municipality they are required to have any plans reviewed by the Accessibility Advisory Committee. So that's what's in my inbox right now is their new meeting chamber with like you know a horseshoe table and a podium and I am very excited to meet with the architect and the property manager so that we can look at everything from changing that in the drawing. It's a wooden podium, a standard stand behind wooden podium with a little microphone on it. And by looking at it, I can tell it's not height adjustable. So were I to go and present to the town council, I would have to park myself in front of it or beside it or something. And I wouldn't have a lectern to put my papers on. So let's talk about how we can design something or purchase something that is height adjustable so that it works for people who use mobility device, people who are short, people who are tall. Right. I was just speaking at an event last week and they had a podium too. And every single one of the people speaking with the exception of one, they were all short women. and they all were like just barely peering over the top of the podium. And they all said something about, yeah, can't really see over this podium. So back to universal design, right? Like being able to take a project and look at it from the perspective so that it serves everybody. It's it's very challenging for starters, but it's also very rewarding when you get to the end of it and you see. the final outcome. I'm also excited about talking about the designer to know how they're incorporating what sort of sound system they're incorporating. So if somebody is using a hearing device, do they have a sound loop incorporated into the room so that the sound is being picked up and fed right into their hearing devices? All of those little things that you don't see on the drawings, I want to talk to the designer and say, hey, I wonder, have you considered? What's your budget for? You know, fill in the blank. A lot of it comes down to money, but it doesn't need to because there's workarounds.

[Janet]: 35:31

Yeah, I agree. And then a lot of things that you can do to make things better for someone like having a podium that's height adjustable, because I've experienced that myself. I'm only 5'2", and so every time I stand behind a podium, I can't see my papers because it's too high. So, I think... being a short stature person, especially in the professional world, we all have some kind of experience because things were traditionally made for men,

[Julie Sawchuk]: 36:04

Yes,

[Janet]: 36:04

right?

[Julie Sawchuk]: 36:04

exactly. Yep. That one tall person

[Janet]: 36:08

Well,

[Julie Sawchuk]: 36:08

at that

[Janet]: 36:08

Julie.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 36:08

meeting was they were they were tall. It was a man.

[Janet]: 36:12

Yeah, right. Thank you so much for being with us today. I really enjoyed learning about your story and your experiences in your own home. I personally think that our home is our sanctuary. We spend, that's where we spend the most amount of time and it should look the way you want it to and represent you but then of course it also needs to be functional and it needs to support our like Otis like to talk about, activities of daily living and

[Julie Sawchuk]: 36:45

Yes.

[Janet]: 36:45

instrumental activities of daily living.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 36:47

Yes, exactly.

[Janet]: 36:48

So thank you so much and I'm looking forward to hearing everything else that you do in the future.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 36:55

Thank you. And for your audience, they are welcome to find me on LinkedIn and Instagram. I'm Julie Satchuk, spelled S-A-W-C-H-U-K. And my books are available on my website, juliesatchuk.ca. So I hope they'll find something to read that will enlighten them in the work that they do or just in their life.

[Janet]: 37:22

That's great. And I will add your website in a link in the show notes. And then also if you could give me a link to all of your books and where people can purchase them.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 37:34

Yeah, absolutely.

[Janet]: 37:35

And I'd be

[Julie Sawchuk]: 37:36

They're

[Janet]: 37:36

happy

[Julie Sawchuk]: 37:36

also

[Janet]: 37:36

to include

[Julie Sawchuk]: 37:37

in the

[Janet]: 37:37

your

[Julie Sawchuk]: 37:37

States,

[Janet]: 37:37

phone

[Julie Sawchuk]: 37:37

they're...

[Janet]: 37:37

number and your website.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 37:39

Yeah, all my books are also available on Amazon in the US. That's the easiest way to get them. Yeah.

[Janet]: 37:47

Okay, perfect. Thank you, Julie.

[Julie Sawchuk]: 37:49

Thank you, Janet.