Konova AG: Shaping the future of Intelligent Document Processing

Welcome to the first Intelligent Document Processing Podcasts in the world.

A few weeks ago, we invited Miro Hegnauer, CEO at Konova AG.     

Konova AG offers innovative digital solution for cooperation and participation processes. The solution is used throughout Switzerland by municipalities, cities, cantons and organizations for consultations and participations and is a tried and tested solution for e-participation.The management of public and private projects becomes significantly simpler, multidimensional, and concrete. 

 
What about Parashift?

Parashift is a machine learning company that has taken on the topic of document capture. Its product, the Parashift Platform, is a cloud-based document extraction solution that uses IDP technology to read relevant data from any document. By using its proprietary Document Swarm Learning technology, companies can gradually automate all their document processes.

In the process, employees team up with the Parashift Platform to integrate document data into processes and systems super quickly and cost-effectively. The platform learns from all interactions and thus comes closer to complete autonomy step by step. So everything at Parashift is focused on making this technological milestone a reality. The team is not pursuing other topics. Alain Veuve says, “We’re not an end-to-end solution, so we’re working with a lot of companies that can do vertical integrations.”

Website: https://parashift.io

Interview filmed on February 18, 2022 

***Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the guest and the host. They do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of their company.

Transcript

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Welcome to a new episode of the Intelligent Document Podcast.
I am Alain Veuve,

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CEO and Founder of Parashift.

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Today I have with me Miro Hegnauer from
the Konova AG.

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So glad to have you here.

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Who are you?

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Yes, my name is Miro Hegnauer. I am founder
and co-owner and CEO of Konova AG.


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Maybe I can just say what our company does, maybe also how 

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we came into existence.

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Everything started in 2017.

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I already had an online marketing
agency alongside my apprenticeship.

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That was my hobby, to start a small company.

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I made websites there.

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Nothing insanely complex.

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With a business partner we were 
then involved in a project

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with the canton of Obwalden,

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to develop strategic communication.

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And that was a consultation case.

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Consultation means concretely:

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One integrates the citizens
or even the parties in a political process

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process. You ask them: What do you think?

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You gather feedback.

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And I noticed there that this inclusion is very complicated,

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very time-consuming for the administration, but also very
tedious or time-consuming for the participants who

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want to take part in the political process.

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And then we asked ourselves: Can't that be done better somehow?

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And yes, you can do it better.

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We found this out in the meantime, we developed a prototype,

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 tested it directly with great success, and then realized that this is not just

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something that exists in one administration, in one canton, but also in 

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cities, in communities, in various cantons, at the federal level,

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everywhere where there is involvement.

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And so we developed a product and have
further developed it again and again.

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And that's where we are today. What is the name of the product?

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E-Mitwirkung. E-Mitwirkung, that's right. This
consultation process

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is something original swiss, right?

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Yes. This does not exist in Germany. For
our German viewers:

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We ask people before we decide on something.

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That's the principle, isn't it?

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We ask:

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What do you think? That's right, we 

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checked it out: What does that look like in
Germany?

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There are individual processes, in communities
for example, where certain construction projects

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are pending, where the population must be involved.

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However, it is not like in Switzerland, where this is much stronger, where in principle

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for every major political project the population or at least the parties

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etc. must be involved.

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That is different here and that is also
especially in Switzerland. Okay.

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I am now asking some of the stupid questions that someone would ask if

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they weren't Swiss. How many of
of these consultations 

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are there at the communal level, for example?

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Yes, at the communal level, it is usually the case that it is actually
construction projects or urban development

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projects. For example
even if a private person wants to

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build or develop an area, he has to do it in cooperation with the administration.

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And the administration must then also involve the
population.

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For a small community, that's
four processes, larger processes,

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and in the case of a city or a canton, it is 40 processes.

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But these are only the
processes required by law.

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Of course there are many more
participations.

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Basically, our product
is much more about stakeholder

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involvement.  It's just like in a company
where you want to involve the employees firmly in the

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process. Is of course very wide.

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There are also surveys, other topics
and there are actually very many purposes.

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So, let me get this straight:

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There are certain projects where this
consultation is required 

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purely by virtue of the law.

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Did I understand that correctly? And with
others, is it politically clever or is it 

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decent, let's say, to simply involve the people in order to find a

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better decision?

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Is that correct?

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Exactly. The question is: Why does
an administration receive or why does the

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law exist at all? The goal is, after all,
to achieve a high level of acceptance, so that 

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the population says: "I support this.
behind it.

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That's a good thing.

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I understand what it's about.

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I was able to comment on it." And more and more
administrations are also realizing that it makes sense

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to make voluntary contributions.

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Not only when it is required by law
required, but to determine at an early 

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stage: Where are there potential opportunities,
where are there risks?

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And to obtain the feedback at an early stage
and not just, as is the case in Switzerland, 

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when there is a vote of either yes or no.

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Very exciting, what does the product look like?

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How can I imagine this?

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Yes exactly, this is a software-as-a-service solution.

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That was very important for us.

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We did not want to create 26 cantonal solutions and
and community solutions,

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we wanted to have a standard solution.

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This means, there are actually two sides
in this solution.

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There is the side of the participant, that is
the person, for example, the citizen, who

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records the statement.

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That means he can view documents there. He may 

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participate in interviews. He has like a theme board,
where he can place different ideas,

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evaluate them, prioritize them.

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This is one side and the other side,
that is the side of the administration 

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now in this case, where the feedbacks are
and questions can then also 

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be collaboratively evaluated, assessed, post-processed

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 etc.

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We can, for example, summarize certain inquiries
and say: This is an inquiry

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that is similar or that is related to an argument?

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How do I have to imagine the consolidation
imagine? Exactly, so 

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the most important thing is first of all that the
administration sees 

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quite easily, for example, in a document, for which chapter or for which headings

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which feedback has been received.

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In the past, these were unstructured letters that arrived.

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All this had to be assigned individually to these chapters

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hundreds of Excel files that went back and forth.


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In the meantime, with our solution, the
feedback is already recorded in a structured manner.

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So that's one issue. And the other
topic is: How can I gain knowledge

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from it? And there I can do clustering, there I can use automations

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to search for matches, to make summaries.

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And these are the efficiency

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tools that are needed precisely when I'm asking
a higher number of stakeholders.

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How do these invitations come about ... or is there an invitation for consultation?

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Or how does that get to the citizen now?

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I understood it like this: Potentially
anyone who lives 

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in this political community can participate. Exactly.

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So basically, the theme is always:

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We have very different needs, also from administrations. Some

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administrations say: We really want to involve the entire population.

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It is important to us that every person, the
young people, the older people are 

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integrated into this political process.

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With others, they are still a bit
reserved.

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They may not yet have quite the
trust in it or are afraid that there will be

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too much feedback.

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And depending on what the goal is, one must design communication and 

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activation differently.

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This means quite simply: This is typical
activation via marketing.

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I mean: via flyers, via posters, at events, via social media

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ads, etc.

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citizens can be activated and made aware and draw their attention to these projects.

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And the software is built in a way, I assume that I can customize it

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in the look and feel to the community more or less.
Yes, exactly.

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Okay, then I have like an account as a
citizen now?

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Yes, exactly.

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For the next one, I can just log in again?

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Exactly, that's a little bit exciting,

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it goes a little into the topic of AI,

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the discussion, of citizen login, which is now very active in
Switzerland.

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It is now actively led and that will of course massively simplify it for us,

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if there will be such a uniform login.

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Currently we have our own single sign-on.

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If, for example, you now participate with a
a community, a city, you can 

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register at the same time and at higher levels,
for example, a canton, you can then register 

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with the same login.

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Now a couple of weeks ago we were
were in a discussion, I think.

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I found that quite exciting.

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We met somewhere.

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I think you used to be a customer at another start up where
I was kind of part of.

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Well, I've always followed what you're doing

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and found it exciting.

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And suddenly you call me and

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we talked about certain strategic options.

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I thought that was pretty cool, A) that you're doing that at all - because it's not like

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we've all been communicating the whole time.

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I thought that was very, very, very cool.

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I should do more of that. On the other hand
I was very, very pleasantly surprised at

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how well this business has developed.

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So you have found something that is a
need and you have also made a super 

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Business draus gemacht. Maybe you can give a
give a bit of the dimensions of how you've

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grown there.

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I don't mean sales figures or anything like that,
but you are a good

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group by now, you have great
coverage.

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I have heard from two of our customers at the Canton about you 

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and heard very many good things.
Maybe first of all:

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How was that for you? You are not the
the oldest.

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So let's say: having an advertising agency on the side,
then getting into this product and now

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you have a business that has filled such a 
perfect spot, I think,

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you've earned, a super reputation.
How are you doing with that?

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I think a lot is learning by doing.

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Yes, I was interested in building a product. I actually wanted to create 

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a product earlier.

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The opportunity then arose
or the potential.

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But it's not that we just started out as a start-up

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that 
we developed a product for two years

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and tried to establish it on the market we actually just started

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with a prototype.

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This is an opportunity that has arisen
and

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then has always developed further.

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For us it was certainly important that we have a focus, and that's what we did.

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In the meantime, we can also open something.

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We have a larger team, which is super exciting, we can move into new areas.

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Basically, it is a matter of including stakeholders and, as I said, this

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is the case in various areas.

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We are currently establishing the topic of associations, 

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companies, where it is then a question of involving the
employees

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and piloting it here. And here, too: This is 
very learning.

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We are very much learning as we go.

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We are in a network and that
is perhaps also the reason why I

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called you. Because I find it exciting myself
to learn from others.

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There are certain topics that are very
specific to our product, but

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I think especially in other areas,
product development, marketing, there are 

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similar challenges that others have already done.

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For me, it's exciting to learn here.

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Let's talk a little bit about the cloud,
this is, after all, a cloud product.

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Let's talk a little bit about the cloud,
this is, after all, a cloud product.

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I have discussions every day with
potential new customers about our data

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in the cloud. We have a lot to do here with personal data and

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sometimes also with sensitive personal data.

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Is there even an on-premise version of
E-Mitwirkung?

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That is a good question.

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I myself am a fan of Software as a Service
and also of cloud solutions, where everything

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is offered as a one-stop service, where
the customer knows that he is getting a 

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complete service and that he no longer has to look after
the IT infrastructure anymore.

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Where we started, it was clear to us that the
administrations, we notice that the topic

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of e-government and digitalization is very
active at the moment.

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There are many goals, but some of them lack
resources.

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There is a lack of knowledge in the administrations.

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And if we had come here with an on-premise
solution and the administrations

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first had to activate their own IT resources, then the answer would have been:

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No, we don't have any resources at the moment.

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So it was clear to us: We need a complete
solution that we can offer, which the

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administration has to put into operation immediately.

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But now, as you said, there are certain fears, uncertainties 

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about the cloud.

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And we had to dismantle those.

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That is, I listened carefully:

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Where was the problem?

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What are the risks that customers
see?

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And we then worked on those.

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This means, for example, that for us it is quite clear:
Switzerland as a data center for administration.

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We have built up the whole thing here with Swiss partners, which are ISO-certified etc..

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On the other hand, we also brought in an IT legal protection lawyer at an early stage,

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who also assisted us in 

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implementing the solutions in a data privacy 
data protection-compliant and data-secure right from the start.

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We perform pentesting and with these
measures we can prove that we have 

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done the best possible.

227
00:13:02,810 --> 00:13:07,490
And what certainly helps if you get a
major client, such as a 

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larger canton,

229
00:13:08,870 --> 00:13:14,120
then it's also easier for smaller cities and
communities to build trust

230
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and go to the cloud.

231
00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:19,990
In the sense of: Canton XY also uses
our solution? Yes.

232
00:13:21,630 --> 00:13:23,480
Okay, this is exciting.

233
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:24,560
That's the way it is, 

234
00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:29,110
we've won a few cantons and a
few - now with Parashift - 

235
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,580
and a few are actually also using the cloud.

236
00:13:31,940 --> 00:13:35,090
But that's always the case: Yes, let's not do that

237
00:13:35,090 --> 00:13:38,150
it's all legal, but let's not make a big deal about it.

238
00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:42,590
And we would be quite happy to do that, that we would
say we go to Canton B and say

239
00:13:42,590 --> 00:13:46,970
Canton A, by the way, why don't you give them a call?
They have already done all the 

240
00:13:46,970 --> 00:13:53,690
paperwork, all the compliance.  But that is not really allowed with us, I have the feeling that 

241
00:13:53,690 --> 00:13:55,460
this kind of thing is not really believed. There's certainly a lot of educational work 

242
00:13:56,070 --> 00:13:57,740
to be done, and we've noticed that.

243
00:13:58,610 --> 00:14:04,340
Do you have ... sensitive personal data are not really an
not really an issue in that sense, or how 

244
00:14:04,340 --> 00:14:10,520
should I understand that? So... yes, but these are just
personal data in the sense that the citizen

245
00:14:10,730 --> 00:14:14,450
identifies himself, I assume, on your platform?
Exactly. Okay. But

246
00:14:14,450 --> 00:14:15,860
this is classified differently.

247
00:14:15,860 --> 00:14:20,150
According to data protection laws, political statements are particularly worthy of protection.

248
00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:22,100
It's the same issue with healthcare data.

249
00:14:23,450 --> 00:14:26,810
That is why it is actually the highest level
according to data protection.

250
00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:30,110
But for us, the most important thing is certainly that
the data is in Switzerland.

251
00:14:30,110 --> 00:14:33,920
So a cloud abroad or 
from a foreign provider

252
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:35,630
would not be accepted.

253
00:14:37,070 --> 00:14:38,360
This is exciting.

254
00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:42,170
Did you then have a lot of compliance work
and assessment

255
00:14:42,170 --> 00:14:43,820
 now also, through the cantons?

256
00:14:44,300 --> 00:14:45,890
Or is it more like this:

257
00:14:45,890 --> 00:14:47,960
Look, we are documented like this.

258
00:14:48,140 --> 00:14:51,680
Here are all the documents, if you still
questions ... and then this went through?

259
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,510
Or were there assessments as well?

260
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:55,670
Assessment in this sense not.

261
00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:59,600
There have certainly been audits by the persons responsible for data protection 
within the administration. 

262
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:04,400
And here, however, it is also important - since, for example, we do not operate

263
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:09,670
the data center ourselves, we have a corresponding
partner, - that this partner

264
00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:13,330
is certified, ISO-certified, and then we can show that a certain

265
00:15:13,990 --> 00:15:15,550
data protection standard exists.

266
00:15:16,660 --> 00:15:18,220
Exciting, very exciting.

267
00:15:18,330 --> 00:15:23,800
Um. It's called Civic Tech, right?

268
00:15:25,690 --> 00:15:30,280
Yes, that's one area, yes. That's like once I got more involved 

269
00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:31,490
with your company, 
I noticed:

270
00:15:31,750 --> 00:15:37,420
There are actually super few civic tech
players in the startup environment, 

271
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:39,700
at least they haven't gotten to me.

272
00:15:42,130 --> 00:15:44,080
What's your take on the scene,

273
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,390
Civic Tech? One would like to think
actually,

274
00:15:47,410 --> 00:15:51,100
the government is one of the biggest customers
that exist.

275
00:15:51,170 --> 00:15:54,990
Yes, if you look at it a little bit from a distance
you have to say, somehow, I think,

276
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:59,670
40 percent of the Spent 

277
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,680
is spent by the state, something like that,
so really a lot.

278
00:16:03,460 --> 00:16:07,660
Are there many startups in the field?

279
00:16:07,990 --> 00:16:10,140
Or are you in that bubble?

280
00:16:10,150 --> 00:16:11,560
Does this bubble even exist?

281
00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:17,110
Let me put it this way: there are many projects,
but there are few startups that also have a 

282
00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:20,290
commercial interest

283
00:16:20,470 --> 00:16:23,230
in developing a product and in developing it in the long term.

284
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,300
There are OpenSource projects, there are
experiments, which are also supported by

285
00:16:28,300 --> 00:16:29,620
various foundations.

286
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:31,150
That is very exciting.

287
00:16:31,390 --> 00:16:35,340
But here you also always have to see: What is the
benefit effectively for the administration.

288
00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:36,660
There are just two aspects here.

289
00:16:36,670 --> 00:16:40,330
One aspect is certainly that administrations
have an interest in promoting democracy,

290
00:16:40,330 --> 00:16:42,460
in offering channels.

291
00:16:42,940 --> 00:16:44,440
But there are also many fears.

292
00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,830
Exactly: I don't want to involve the
population, because that means

293
00:16:47,830 --> 00:16:48,880
a lot of work, etc.

294
00:16:49,510 --> 00:16:53,650
But the other aspect - and this is our
advantage - is the issue of efficiency. Especially with 

295
00:16:53,650 --> 00:16:58,120
these projects that the administration has to do,
these inclusions, it's not a question of: Do I 

296
00:16:58,150 --> 00:17:02,740
do them digitally now or is it a question of making
these ... I have to do them,

297
00:17:02,740 --> 00:17:04,450
but how do I do them? Do I do it digitally or
not?

298
00:17:05,140 --> 00:17:09,820
And if we can say: We save effort- and that is
with our solution - around 65 percent,

299
00:17:10,300 --> 00:17:13,550
then the question is clear: do it digitally.

300
00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:19,990
And we also focused very early on the issue of efficiency, we developed an efficiency

301
00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:24,460
solution with collaborative tools,
which serves the administration.

302
00:17:24,460 --> 00:17:28,480
And many other projects in this environment
are primarily focused on the topic of digital 

303
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,770
democracy, i.e., primarily from the perspective of citizens, which is certainly important, but

304
00:17:32,770 --> 00:17:36,640
in order for it to be attractive for the administration to rely on such a product,

305
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,190
both sides have to be fulfilled.

306
00:17:39,490 --> 00:17:40,720
And here we are sure

307
00:17:41,620 --> 00:17:43,480
that there are not many startups,

308
00:17:43,570 --> 00:17:48,660
not even abroad, which take care of this area.

309
00:17:48,670 --> 00:17:54,550
I once discussed with - you may know 

310
00:17:54,550 --> 00:17:59,280
David Fuss from Tilbago -
I had a discussion with him very early on

311
00:17:59,290 --> 00:18:02,350
and I told him: How crazy,
what you are doing here

312
00:18:02,350 --> 00:18:04,990
with Tibago is actually what the state should be doing.

313
00:18:06,010 --> 00:18:08,710
So in the sense of: They're doing debt collection,
so they make a front end - 

314
00:18:08,710 --> 00:18:11,440
I'm certainly not doing 
the product justice, 

315
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:16,330
 but as I understood it, they make a front end for debt collection offices,

316
00:18:16,340 --> 00:18:20,110
so that it is much easier for companies to file for debt collection,

317
00:18:20,110 --> 00:18:24,610
to manage the whole thing.  This is especially important for
companies that have to serve a lot of customers,

318
00:18:24,610 --> 00:18:25,750
the biggest companies, 

319
00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:32,620
it is a super ugly process.
And I said: Aren't you actually

320
00:18:32,620 --> 00:18:37,090
afraid that the state, that is, that the administration

321
00:18:37,090 --> 00:18:38,590
will go along with it? At some point, they will have to digitize.

322
00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:43,180
And he told me: No, I'm not afraid, it works.

323
00:18:43,180 --> 00:18:45,040
They are moving so slowly,

324
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,810
which makes it rather difficult for us to connect our product in such a way that

325
00:18:49,810 --> 00:18:55,470
it works. And conversely - this
was really at the very beginning -

326
00:18:55,490 --> 00:18:59,200
he said: And maybe, you know,
we can somehow

327
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,580
sell this to the state as an exit partner.

328
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,620
What's your take on this in Civic Tech, 
are there exit opportunities?

329
00:19:06,910 --> 00:19:08,710
Is that something you 
you're dealing with at all?

330
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,760
How do you see it?

331
00:19:13,090 --> 00:19:14,950
Can the state become a competitor

332
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,140
at one point? Now to you, 
that he says: Oh come on,

333
00:19:18,220 --> 00:19:20,830
we'll build that centrally as a toolset?

334
00:19:21,010 --> 00:19:25,460
I ask myself: Everything is digitized
except for the state.

335
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,330
That's a bit bold, but when we
consider: What are the ...

336
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,570
These are the business models of the
political operations, of the future, that

337
00:19:31,570 --> 00:19:33,130
need to be digitized.

338
00:19:33,340 --> 00:19:37,690
You would also have to think that somewhere
the state has to start 

339
00:19:37,690 --> 00:19:41,290
using other tools and organize the processes differently,

340
00:19:41,290 --> 00:19:45,790
perhaps adapt the legal foundations a bit, so that 

341
00:19:45,790 --> 00:19:50,170
it can better accommodate this digitalized lifestyle. And what 

342
00:19:50,170 --> 00:19:52,750
you are doing shows very clearly that this is a need

343
00:19:52,750 --> 00:19:56,650
of the citizens. I don't think that a citizen will say:  I don't want to

344
00:19:56,650 --> 00:19:58,480
do it digitally, please give me back the paper!

345
00:19:59,170 --> 00:20:00,370
That won't happen.

346
00:20:00,370 --> 00:20:01,930
Oh, sporadically still. Really?

347
00:20:02,070 --> 00:20:07,870
Yes, there are certainly some citizens who say
say: I would still like to submit this in analog form.

348
00:20:07,870 --> 00:20:11,350
But that is also possible and that is a
minority, quite clearly.

349
00:20:11,350 --> 00:20:13,660
And that will continue to get smaller in the future.

350
00:20:13,690 --> 00:20:16,800
Yes well, someone always has to be different. Exactly.

351
00:20:18,130 --> 00:20:19,960
Okay. So how do you see that 

352
00:20:20,020 --> 00:20:25,860
working out in Civich Tech? Do you have a plan to
sell it at some point or 

353
00:20:25,860 --> 00:20:27,300
just from a business perspective?

354
00:20:28,300 --> 00:20:29,940
So at the moment we still have a lot of
potential, besides

355
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,910
the case that we have now, with these formal obligations to carry out consultations, 

356
00:20:35,910 --> 00:20:39,870
there is still a great deal of
potential, also in the B2B environment, in the club 

357
00:20:39,870 --> 00:20:45,990
environment, it's still fun enough to continue

358
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,070
and we can still grow.

359
00:20:48,990 --> 00:20:52,320
Regarding if the state has to or do we have
competition from the state:

360
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,650
there are individual e.g. cantons, administrations that
develop individual solutions.

361
00:20:59,610 --> 00:21:04,700
But what we see as a problem or a challenge there is the exchange of information.

362
00:21:04,710 --> 00:21:06,930
Everyone gains experience,

363
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,740
but that doesn't make a lot of sense if
each canton builds its own solution etc. 

364
00:21:11,130 --> 00:21:14,670
And here, this is the advantage, when the customer comes to us, he benefits from a lot

365
00:21:14,670 --> 00:21:16,110
of experience, we can say: The other canton has

366
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,600
solved this in such and such a way, they had these challenges.

367
00:21:19,020 --> 00:21:20,100
And it does not work ...

368
00:21:20,460 --> 00:21:25,790
Each canton does not have to rebuild the
Login system anew etc., but it can

369
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,490
build on one site and together ...
ultimately, we develop

370
00:21:29,490 --> 00:21:33,600
the solution together with our customers, 
so it's good for everyone and I think our customers really 

371
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:39,120
appreciate that. There are few who
want to build solutions specifically now.

372
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,070
They also know that resources are scarce.

373
00:21:43,530 --> 00:21:44,550
Yes, exciting.

374
00:21:45,180 --> 00:21:46,290
How do you generally 

375
00:21:46,290 --> 00:21:55,710
see digitization in the institutional sector now? 
Where will we be in

376
00:21:55,710 --> 00:21:56,430
5 years?

377
00:21:59,690 --> 00:22:02,810
It's difficult to say, there's a lot going on at the moment.

378
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,970
They also always say you have to become more agile.

379
00:22:04,980 --> 00:22:09,110
However, we have also noticed that, for example, there are also certain risks in administration.

380
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:13,250
People are always quick to say "Try it!",
but you also notice that it's not 

381
00:22:13,250 --> 00:22:17,270
that the administration doesn't want to,
but when a mistake happens,

382
00:22:17,270 --> 00:22:19,070
it's in the media the next day.

383
00:22:19,070 --> 00:22:23,090
And that is also the challenge that the
administration has,

384
00:22:23,090 --> 00:22:27,650
and here both sides really have to live the culture of trial and error so trying is possible.

385
00:22:27,650 --> 00:22:32,210
And I notice progress here,
that both sides are becoming more open,

386
00:22:32,210 --> 00:22:36,880
both sides also want to try out more,
and also cooperate 

387
00:22:36,890 --> 00:22:38,900
more with the private sector.

388
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,460
Yes, I see progress here, but
that will certainly not happen overnight.

390
00:22:44,420 --> 00:22:46,520
Would that mean that you digitally ... 
You said that 

391
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:52,900
digitalization in the public sector is progressing more 

392
00:22:52,940 --> 00:22:54,320
slowly than in the private sector, isn't it?

393
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,120
It may be a little more complex than that.

394
00:22:58,150 --> 00:23:02,580
You may have larger or more different stakeholders, different requirements.

395
00:23:02,580 --> 00:23:07,320
You may have from a political point of view many guidelines. The topic of data protection

396
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:12,480
is certainly also looked at closely by companies
and by the customers, but with the

397
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:18,180
citizens it is still much more the case and here
the state has to be much more careful, 

398
00:23:18,180 --> 00:23:20,490
and more careful usually means slower.
slower.

399
00:23:23,210 --> 00:23:25,260
Exciting, yes.

400
00:23:25,260 --> 00:23:28,650
We have already reached the end of our conversation.

401
00:23:29,130 --> 00:23:32,190
Thank you very much for coming here,

402
00:23:32,190 --> 00:23:34,800
Friday afternoon. I appreciate that very much.

403
00:23:34,990 --> 00:23:39,420
I find it really exciting what you are doing and I
wish you all the best on the way.

404
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:40,650
Thank you very much!