The principal and building school culture from the ground up.

How do you put the foundations in place when your students, staff and community have nothing in common and come together for the first time? For founding principal Pauline Kubat it wasn't hard because she worked with stakeholders to develop the values and guiding principles. Back then, there were about 100 students. Today it's a vibrant school of nearly 1500!

Transcript

Loretta  00:03

You're listening to Loretta Piazza experienced school principal, mentor and coach. And together were talking out of school. You will hear from leaders who have lived and breathed so many experiences good and bad, agonized over decisions, and have tossed and turned through countless sleepless nights. These are the people who will help you stay ahead of the game. 


Loretta
Michael Fullan says that school culture can be defined as the guiding beliefs and values that are seen in the way a school operates. Another definition comes from authors Robbins and Ally  They say that school culture is an inner reality. And it reflects what members of the organization care about, what they are willing to spend time on what and how they celebrate and what they talk about. Today's interview is with Pauline Kubat. And it covers all of this and much more. Pauline was one of my principal colleagues in the Whittlesea network. She was the founding principal of her school starting off with less than 100 students and growing it to nearly 1500. Pauline knows a thing or two about how to build school culture.   

Loretta 
Oh, hello, Pauline, welcome to Talking out of school. 

 Pauline  01:24

Thanks, Loretta. 

Loretta  01:26

Okay, we're talking today about building culture in a brand new school. Now tell us about yourself, the number of years you've been a principal and some of the highlights. 

Pauline  01:37

I was first became a head teacher in 1990. So I've been a principal in schools from as little as seven students, up to 1400 students, so quite a variety. And I've been in rural, as well as in a city, as principal in a rural school, in inner city, as well as in the growth corridor in the north of Melbourne. So quite a variety, a lot of difference come across a lot of different staff, students and parents.

Loretta  02:07

Hmm. What motivated you to start up a new school?

Pauline  02:12

So I became the sixth principal in 12 months, a substantive principal, but the sixth principal in 12 months, in a school in inner Melbourne, and really found the culture in the school very difficult. It was almost as if something was embedded in the walls, and they'd have been better off to have closed the school, rather than, you know, appointing other principals. So I found it really difficult. And when I went there, the staff, students and parents were challenging with a capital ch. And, and then when I left, you know, the parents were good, the kids were good, but some of the staff was still challenging. So if I found that really difficult, and when the opportunity to apply for a brand new school came up, I thought, here's an opportunity to employ staff that I've chosen, not that I've inherited from somebody else, and and staff that have a like minded to, to how I think about how schools should be and, and most importantly, I wanted people who had a focus on students who could get on with students, who valued students, and who really cared about them. That was my most important thing. I think you can teach people to teach, but you can't necessarily teach people to have that real ethos of caring for kids. And that's what I was looking for.

Loretta  03:28

And the fact that you're able to employ all your own staff, right from scratch, would you consider that to be the highlight of being able to open up a brand new school?

03:40

While I found it was for me, definitely. Because there's a lot of work to be done. When you start a new school, there's no doubt about it. And, and I know things are done a little bit differently these days. But even you know, 15 years ago, there wasn't, we were given X amount of dollars, and you had to use a crystal ball to think what am I going to need next? And how am I going to manage? And what am I going to do, etc. And I went into a school that didn't have a lot of students, often new school start with over 100 students or more, and I had less than that. So that meant money wise, there wasn't as much money coming into the school either. So it was a matter of balancing it, but but I really wanted to choose staff that I believed would team together. So that was really important for me. I'd been in other schools and I talked about teaming and you know, together everybody achieves more. And I'd been able to certainly make some differences and to convert some people into thinking that but sometimes when you go into a school where people have been used to being silos, and just managing on their own and doing their own thing, it is really difficult when you come in and you're saying now I'm wanting to change it. So you've got to be able to share that vision. You've got to be able to get people to be thinking big picture stuff, as well as I've got to look after the kids in my grade. So by by being able to choose my own stuff that certainly made a difference.

Loretta  05:04

What were some of the challenges you encountered?

Pauline  05:07

With the staffing or just starting a new school? 

Loretta  05:10

Oh, anything anything ..

Pauline  05:12

So DET... some of it is, you know, just managing the budget of it to know that, you know, you can spend 40 or $50,000 on, you know, guided reading sets. And that's only gonna last you for the first 12 months and, and things like that. So there was always that balancing, and it was always managing, not wanting to take students from other schools. So when they approached you to come to your school, it was about finding that balance, so that you didn't have other principals in nearby schools thinking, Oh, you're taking all my kids, trying to balance the parents that thought a fresh start was going to be good for their students with not having too many of those fresh starters, as we're, you know, so that you've got a normal, I guess, array of students within a school. So some of the things were about pacing myself as well. And I had a vision and it was about sharing my vision and making sure that I brought people on board that were able to share that vision as well. So that, you know, change wasn't so much change, it was just setting it up. And this is what we need to do, and having people that weren't frightened to work because there is a lot of work in a new school. And initially, in our school, we were the cleaners it was in a small school that was still building the school, were in portables, you know, and we were cleaning, you know, the teachers were vacuuming, I was cleaning the toilets, and drinking taps every day. So it was about people that weren't afraid to do the work, and weren't afraid to, you know, have to really hunt up for some resources, because you don't necessarily have all the resources, I think now about the people that come into, you know, the school that I've just that I'm on leave from at the moment, and it's so well resourced. And I just think that, you know, a lot of people don't understand how schools get their resources. So it was a matter of bringing people on board that were prepared to do the work, and knew that they wouldn't necessarily have a well stocked school to begin with.

Loretta  07:09

Yeah. I think for your school, it was a bit of a slow burn, wasn't it? Because you were a couple of years with fairly low numbers. Were you worried at any time that things weren't going to go to plan?

Pauline  07:26

No, no, when I look back on it, in hindsight, that was probably a blessing for us that we actually had a while to really embed things compared to schools that might start now with 300 500 people, we we were, we were slow to start. And that had a bit to do with the, the area that we're in that there weren't very many houses completed, and, and it took longer for the houses to be built. So that meant that the enrollments was smaller, you know, to the extent that we got to the stage where I had people, you know, stamping their feet crying and going to the region and all sorts of things, because I wouldn't enroll them because they weren't living in our zone. So you know, it didn't take it only took a few years for it to change. But there was a definite couple of years where we took advantage of the slower start, got to know every child in the school, all of our staff coming in, got to know every resource that we had, there was certainly the opportunity for us to share, you know, what we knew about our community and and to be able to work through that. So that that there was some real advantages in it. But the disadvantages were, because we were slow growing, it was slow to get funding for extra things. Because the more money you more kids you've got, the more money you get, the more money you've got, the more resources you can buy, etc. So that part of it was difficult, but it really enabled us to set the tone and I'm not sure, you know, now I see schools and new school startup and they have their they already have their logo, and they already have their, their values, etc. And I'm not sure if that's a requirement of registration. But we were able to actually start our school and ask our community, what values did we did we want what what were the important things for our school, and our community. And we did that by, you know, surveying our parents, our students and our staff. So we had the opportunity, then to look at what everybody had said, was important. And then to take what was important from each of those, you know, from the students, as well as the community as well as the staff. And we were able to embed those. So that was a real plus for us. And I'm not sure I see now schools are, you know, all set up and ready to go. And I'm not sure if that's part of their enrollment procedures. But it certainly was, you know, ideal for us because it meant that we had definitely were able to share the vision that we had for our school.

Loretta  09:46

I'm interested in what you're saying about being able to build up that vision in a collaborative sense, seeking the input from all stakeholders kids, parents, staff. Oh, how did you go about doing that?

Pauline  10:03

So we actually, the students did a lot of the work for us. So we chose, I think something like about 36 different values. And we unpacked what those values were and what they would be and what they might look like. And then we ran an evening with our school community, and the students and the staff. So our senior students came along, and our staff, and they were able to stand up and explain what each of the values were. And then we asked everybody to vote. So we did a bit of a vote, you know, list your, your top five, or, you know, whatever it was. And then from that, we then looked at, well, which were the ones that everybody said were important. And then which were the highest voting for each of the three, the community, the staff, and the, and the students. And then that's how we adapted our values into the school. And it really meant something, because the parents and the students, and the staff actually chose those values to say, This is what our school is about, this is what we're aiming for. So that was a real advantage to us that we were able to do that. And I guess for me, it really was, I was really able to capitalize on what my vision for the school was, and then incorporate those values, then into our vision and into our guiding principles for our school as we as we grew. And as new staff came on board.

Loretta  11:24

What was your vision?

Pauline  11:27

Definitely to have a team environment. And, you know, we talk about our logo. And our motto is from little things, big things grow. And it really was, you know, starting out small and growing bigger. And no matter how big we got, we still wanted to maintain those still values. And I definitely wanted a team environment. I wanted everybody to work together. And I wanted the students to be the absolute center, focus for everybody in everything that we did. It was all about what's going to happen. So a staff member asked me for a particular resource, tell me how that's going to benefit the students. If you know, I was asked for something for the staff room, how's that going to benefit the students? So everything that we were looking to purchase or to install in the school it was how's it going to then relate back to student learning and student outcomes? And students? I guess, student well being that was really important for us.

Loretta  12:25

The fact that you lead already established schools, and then you're able to start one up from scratch, what's the fundamental difference?

Pauline  12:36

Well, there's no precedents there. So it was a case of that no one could say we've always done this, or we did this before, we've done this previously, it was you know, and I had, you know, a couple of staff members say you know, at such and such, we did this, and I said, but I'm not this school is not that school, I don't want another one of those in our in another school here. That's the same as you know, school a, I want this to be our own school. So it's not about oh, what you did there, pick the good things, by all means. And as our school was growing, one of the things that was really important to us is that we didn't just jump into every new thing. We actually looked, we researched, we did a lot of research on different things, we went out to other schools, to see things and it was important that we made sure that if we were going to implement things that there was, you know, some research behind it, that there was that they were proven to be good. And if something that we thought was worth looking at, we might trial it in a part of the school, we never just said the whole school is going to do this, we actually trialed it in a part of the school. And then we got people on board, if we thought there was the way we were going, then we had some people that were able to be real, I guess supports for us in terms of real champions for that. And they'd be able to say, come into my room, have a look, see what I'm doing. And that was really important. One of the things when I've started the school is that I was able to give everybody extra time release for professional learning. And that professional learning in the beginning was going out and looking at other schools and seeing what they were doing. And then as we got bigger, it was looking from within what's going on in our own school, we've got some great things happening here. You know, use your hour to go and view somebody, you know, taking different lessons and that professional learning over the years has changed. But that professional learning started off when we were smaller without without saying, Okay, we're going to team you up, our focus is reading we're going to team you up with another person in the school and you're going to go and view them and visit them for four or five weeks and then you're going to come back and talk to us about what you've seen and how it's impacting what you're doing in your own practice, etc. So we did things like that. When we sent our staff out to other schools. We didn't just send teachers we sent ER staff we sent office staff. We took Do you know, a printing person so that we could actually come back and talk about a range of things that we might have seen. And quite often when people came back, they said, you know, what we're doing is better than that what we're doing is better for our kids, or our kids are doing this better, etc. But at least it gave people the opportunity to see what's out there. Because, you know, sometimes people think what other people are doing is better than what you're doing.

Loretta  15:26

And well, that's the grass is always greener.

Pauline  15:29

So and that's not necessarily and that was really important, too, as we, as our school grew, because we did employ quite a lot of graduates. And you know, for person who'd been in a school in our school, say, for five years, they didn't know what other schools were like. And yes, we did have some people who taught in other schools and some people that came to us that might have taught in other schools. And you know, they'd say, Gee, these people are complaining about this, or they think such and such should happen, they really need to go and see, you know, what other schools are like, and they need to be teaching in another school to see that things aren't necessarily, you know, as you say, grass is not necessarily greener on the other side. And one of the things probably for me, was, I wanted to make sure that ICT was integral to what we were doing, but it was it was working well, for us, there's nothing worse than you want to be, you know, you want to teach a particular lesson, or you want to use the interactive whiteboard, and it won't work. So that was another thing that was really important. We wanted to make sure that what we had worked really well. And so to the extent that, you know, when we would have student teachers, pre service teachers coming to our school, they'd say, it was just fabulous that I knew that if I wanted to teach using, you know, a particular ICT component, that it would work, and it would work every time. So that was really important as well, for us that we that we had that, and and I did have to employ, you know, some extra ICT hours to make sure that that that would happen in our school? Because it does it's not necessarily something that just comes automatically with the department.

Loretta  17:08

Yes. Why do you think building a strong culture is important for schools?

Pauline  17:18

Because I think everyone then pulls together and everyone works together to improve the school for the students and to end that we're all on the same page. So you're not having one person tell kids something, and then we'll students something and then you turn around, and another teacher is teaching them something else. So we actually teamed together, we plan together. And I used to be able to very honestly say to parents, when they came and I had eight prep grades or 13 Prep grades, as I did in one year, be able to say to parents, doesn't matter which class your child is in, they're going to be doing the same work because the teachers plan together. And they use the same format they're planning together, they're teaching the same things, it's just that we know one person standing up in front of the grade might be a little bit different. But they're all teaching the same thing. So that you can know. And when I would take people on tours of the school, they would walk in and out of the rooms. And they would see that in and out of the working spaces. And they would see that they're doing, you know, writing in this room and writing in that room. And that was very similar language that was being used, and that the kids were engaged in the same sort of activities so that it didn't matter for us which particular room your child was in, they were all going to be learning the same things. And the curriculum was important. We were following the department's curriculum, but we were making sure that it was consistent across our school. And I think that that was a really important thing. The fact that our staff knew they could rely on each other that they could plan together. And that, especially for younger people who don't have a lot of experience, it was really good for them to be able to offer ideas and know that they would be listened to and that their ideas could be used, that that was an important thing. And it was just that whole together, we're going to achieve more. And Laredo, one of the things I'm most proud of is that when we would have staff leave, whether it was leave to go off on maternity leave or leave to go to other positions in schools, they always talked about at their farewell they always talked about the team environment, they always talked about what a fabulous team they had to work with. And, you know, got to the stage where we had many schools within our big school because you know, there would be 10 and 11. You know, we had 13 prints in one year. So they're big teams. And sometimes there is bigger teams is what you're having a whole school and you know, bigger than I've had in some of my other schools. And the thing that that really, that really made me proud was the fact that people were were pleased and we're proud of the team that they were in and how they were able to lean on each other, share with each other learn from each other. and that they were able to then make sure that they benefited the students to the best of their abilities. So when they looked at data, they were looking at Team data, you know, the essay looked at their own individual data, but they looked at Team data as well. And that was really important. And it's a bit like what they're doing now in schools with the PLCs, you know, the professional learning communities, we had those professional learning communities right from the beginning. And that was important. And we built that from the beginning. So that was important, it was important for me to be able to build a school culture, that everybody was there to benefit the students. And that's what I wanted. And so that, you know, I say to people, I'm here to support you to support the students, you know, the office staff are here to support me to support you to support the students. And that's what it was about. It was about that team environment that we could all work together to benefit our students.

Loretta  20:58

Pauline, as you continue to bring new teachers onboard, new staff, how did you make sure that they fit in seamlessly, and you're able to maintain that culture and that strength, and that consistency across the board. 

Pauline  21:18

I sat on every panel, bar one when a family member applied for the school, but for every other panel, I sat on it, I listened, I had a gut feel for somebody about whether I thought they would, they would blend in with our team that we had, I certainly asked questions about how people teamed with other people, when I looked for when I was looking for referee checks, but but a lot of it was I just sat there myself. And I made sure that I thought this person was going to bleep bring something to our school that would benefit our school. And I've listened to what my my staff on the panels also said, to see if they got a feel for what it might be. And some people I knew some people I didn't know. And the other thing was, I read everybody's application, because I wanted to see if this person had something that would benefit our school. So when I used to ask them, you know, why do you want to teach at our school? And or, you know, why do you want to work at our school? And what skills and interests do you bring? I listened really carefully. And to me, that was the most important question out of the five or six questions that we would ask in interviews, what why do you want to teach at our school? Or why do you want to work at our school? And what skills and interests do you bring, and I really looked for people that had skills that would complement what we had, what skills that and interests that might support our students. And I really looked for people that I knew would be able to follow our our ethos of sustainability, which was important to me, within our school, and I looked for people that had a genuine interest in kids. And as I said, I think you can teach people to teach, but I don't think you can teach people to have that real interest in developing students. And that's what I was looking for. And that that's the best part of being able to choose your own stuff. I didn't inherit, inherit anybody else's. And I would think that 99% of the time, we got that right.

Loretta  23:24

Yeah, I love that comment to you made a little bit earlier. that gut feeling. You use your intuition. Sometimes when you're sitting across someone, you know, you you're sitting across the table from them, you just know, they can say all the right things. They look the part, but you just know there's something not quite right.

Pauline  23:48

Well, not not quite quite quite right. For us, they might have been right in a different city or another, for our school. not quite right. And that's in one respect. We did get a lot of young graduate teachers, it gave you the ability to buy more staffing, because you weren't paying as much for experienced staff. But you had people who were really keen to learn, they had lots of energy, they really wanted to make a go of their career. And you know, and I'm really proud to say that, you know, from all of the graduates and people that we employed, they've gone on to lots of different leadership positions, and lots of them are friends and acting friends and APs and leading teachers and learning specialists in schools. So I think we couldn't have done something too bad in terms of our professional learning for so many of them to go on and, and to be doing other things.

Loretta  24:41

You know, if you could turn back the clock, and start all over again, in terms of building that culture in your school, in a brand new school, would you do anything differently?

Pauline  24:54

That's a really interesting question. Probably not. I'm I'm really pleased with how things developed. And, and I'm really pleased with the way that we were able to bring staff on board and the things that we're able to do if I was able to change anything at all. No, I don't think so I think I'm really, I think that's been a really big thing for us that we've been able to, I guess, manage a huge growth over a short amount of time in a school and still have terrific school community, staff and students. So no, I maybe might have been a little bit kinder on myself, worked long hours. And, and I did, and I did certainly do, put in lots of hours and started my family in the very beginning. You know, I remember very first, the day before, we were open, going to open and we were in a little confined area, because the school wasn't built. And, you know, he, my family, the teachers, families were all there, you know, moving 40 meters of mulch, because it had to be spread out across the mud, so that the kids actually had somewhere to come in. So you know, I'm certainly aware of the work that goes with it, but I've loved it, absolutely loved it, it was like my baby, my family. And I really see it as my family and, you know, the 100, and, you know, 15, babies that have been born to staff, I really feel like that they're our families, and it's our babies that we've had, and I really have have valued every bit of it, and I love it and the learning curves, and there's been some learning curves, you know, there, but I've just, I've loved it. And I really, really gained a lot from it. And it probably kept me in the one school for a long time, because there was always something different to do, there was always something new to, to incorporate something new to learn. And, you know, I look now and I'm seeing, you know, the results, they weren't so terrific in the beginning, but the results that the kids are doing now are really good. And I'm really pleased with where the school is gone to, and where it's actually come.

Loretta  27:09

Yeah, I'm wondering principals who are appointed to schools and the well established schools with well established staff and kids and, and parents, what sort of advice would you give to them in terms of how they can then enable their own vision, and you know, their own beliefs and so on, to to actually take root and grow?

Pauline  27:41

it's about being true to yourself, I think that's really important and trying to, and making sure that you're sharing your vision, and you're bringing people on board. And when I went to a school that, as I said was quite difficult. I watched, I looked very closely and I watched. So I didn't make any great changes. To begin with. I spent a term I actually went in media. So that had an advantage in some respects. But I actually watched and I viewed what was happening, I certainly certainly took note of the teachers that I thought were doing a great job, the ones that really engaged with their children in their classrooms, the ones that seemed to have the biggest effect on what was happening within the school. And I watched and I viewed and actually rebuilt the school, I chose the best teachers, put them together, got them to team team together and actually rebuilt the school and, and was able to then move up through the school in that I've been in other schools where I've gone in. And I've been able to use the strengths of people that have you know, people's strengths, and work to those strengths. I've found some champions within the schools that we're willing to try things that I wanted to do. And then when I had some champions, they were able to bring other people on board, they could say come in, look how I'm doing it, see what I'm doing, you know, these things are happening. And that was a real advantage. But uh, but I think by modeling that was fairly important. And even to the extent, you know, I worked really long hours, but I tried to make sure that there were parts of the role that I liked doing that I continued to do. I love reading stories to kids. So I would go into classrooms and read stories to kids, that was really important. You know, if you're a person who really likes teaching, pe go and teach PE if you're a person who really enjoys, you know being on on the gates in the morning, then do it. Make sure you find something in the job that you really enjoy. And you can still keep doing when you're applying because it is a lot of work and you're often on your own. You have you know, you've got a team around you. But the bottom line is, you're the one that is responsible for everything. You're the one that signs off, so make sure there's something in the job that you're doing that You really love?

Loretta  30:01

And you know, that's a perfect segue into my next question to you, Pauline. We've heard a lot about principals who are totally burnt out, and are leaving the job earlier than what they'd planned to. And we've got a lot of new principals now that don't necessarily have the experience behind them. And they're faced with big workloads. And what advice would you give to principals out there who are listening regarding how to look after themselves?

Pauline  30:35

So I think you need to balance it. And I knew how many hours a day I could spend on school. So I'll be honest, I went from seven in the morning till seven at night, but I didn't take work home, when I went home. That was it, I left it at school. Very rarely did I take work home. So that, you know, I gave my working hours. And to me, that was important, I was able to do that. And, and that fitted in with what I needed to do. In my very early days, as a principal, I had a young family, and I needed to work after hours. But you know, in my later years, what I gave to school when I was there, the other thing is, I think it's important if you if it's important for you, but maybe give yourself permission to go home early, one day a week, and encourage the rest of the school. So you might say, first day is our early day, and encourage everybody, you know, to go home earlier on a Thursday than they might on other days, so that you were modeling for them, you know, as they were coming up through the ranks that that balance, it was pre COVID times. And, you know, that was difficult. I think one of the things, even I learned myself during COVID was to work from home. Because I found that really difficult I like to be I like to be in my office, I like to be in my workplace, I like to have everything around me and having to stay at home, which I did, because I wanted to model to the rest of the staff, you need to do this, this is what we need to do that that was that, again, that modeling was important. And that's the thing I'm most proud of, out of the COVID that I actually was able to stay at home, and and work from home, rather than be at school every single day. So you know, to me that was important. It is I think a lot of people, younger people go in not knowing just how just how difficult the role can be. And when I say it's difficult, it's it's constant stress and pressure. And you might have more stress in one day than you will in others. But there is that all the time about meeting deadlines, doing the right thing by your community doing the right thing by students doing the right thing by your staff, there's all those. And you notice one staff member once said to me, oh, that's what you get paid the big bucks for. So you know, you get paid a wage, but I don't think your wage I think for the hours and the and the effort that you put in, you probably paid less than what your teachers are paid per hour. For all the work that goes into what you do. But it was about I, I knew that I'd given it my best shot, I knew that what I was doing was right. And I knew that I was trying to balance out for everybody so that it was you know, as best that we could make it for everybody, as well as still keeping myself going. And, and probably I'll be really honest, probably my most difficult times were when I perhaps wasn't backed by the department or I felt that the department had done something or made a decision that wasn't in the best interests of our school community, or myself, but mostly our school community, that's probably been the most difficult thing out of the whole lot. And then talking to other people has sometimes helped ease through that, you know, and there and you do need that. And you need to have supportive principals around you. You need to have supportive people around you. So if you want to just go to town and just save your butt. No, it won't go any further. I think that's important.

Loretta  34:10

Do you miss the job?

Pauline  34:13

I'm on leave now. So I miss I miss the students. I miss I miss the staff. I miss the community. But I don't miss the DET,  the department's workload. And I don't miss all the argy bargy that you know, you have to do, I've got to let go and that's been really hard. Because it was my baby and I and I started it from, you know, two portables on a hill to a magnificent school, you know, environment and, and I did have to let go so that's been really hard that part of it, but I do miss the children and I missed the interaction with the people and I miss my leadership team because you know, I built it up to a team of five you know,  four assistant principals and, and it was a really great team and every one of us had strengths that balanced out our team and that was really important, you know that we were able to do that. I always tried to Loretta, I always tried to employ people that were smarter than me......

Loretta  35:12

Thanks for listening to this latest episode of talking out of school, where we cover topics and dilemmas associated with the ups and downs and even the downright curious of the school leaders job. Want to know more? Then visit me at shaping leaders.com.au But for now, here's to staying ahead of the game.