The principal and no sign of a rotting head.

School improvement comes in many forms and can be likened to fishes with rotting heads- unfortunately I can't take the credit for this great metaphor!  The big question is: do principals major in majors or major in minors? This principal knows exactly what he needed to major in, so as to be the eighth most improved school in the state....

Transcript

Loretta  00:03

You're listening to Loretta Piazza experienced school principal, mentor, and coach. And together we’re talking out at school. You will hear from leaders who have lived and breathed so many experiences good and bad, agonized over decisions, and tossed and turned through countless sleepless nights. These are the people who will help you stay ahead of the game.  

The fish rots from the head. This expression originated in Turkey. It means that if employees aren't doing well, the problem lies with the boss. In my 22 years as a school principal, I've never met anyone quite like my colleague, Jeremy. For the past nine years, he's been principal of a small school in the Thomastown area. His educational philosophy isn't much different from anyone else’s. But what is different his how this philosophy plays out in his school. The outstanding results in student achievement speak for themselves. There's nothing rotten about this fish's head.  

Loretta

Oh, hello, Jeremy, thank you for joining me in talking out of school. Well, look, I'm confident that we're going to have a great interview knowing you as I do. But maybe a lot of our listeners don't know you. So are you happy to tell us a bit about your background?

Jeremy  01:32

Jeremy, married, got an 18 year old son. So I'm very comfortable in life. I've been in education about 30 years, I've worked in the Broadmeadows schools. I've worked in the Lalor-Thomastown schools, and I'm currently at Thomastown East primary school where I've been for the last nine years. And just love every day. I'm proud to be a principal and I'm proud to turn up and represent our community.

Loretta  01:56

Now, I first met you many years ago, when you worked with Mark Thompson. What was it like working with him?

Jeremy  02:04

He was an amazing, wonderful person, great role model, really strong moral purpose of why he was in a school. We all liked Mark, he was a great operator and a great person and and the person I am today has been shaped by his his vision and his undertaking of being a really strong leader in education. So I can say, I'm really lucky to have spent time with him. And it was some of the most fun times of my life starting up a new school and learning from the best.

Loretta  02:35

You know, you're not the first to say that he's sort of shaped, shaped you into what you are today. So yeah, he does leave a very, very strong legacy in education. There's no nonsense about you, you know, you focus on what you need to focus on. And I know you have a quite a broad philosophy. But if there's one thing that you bring to the table, whether it be about you or how you operate, what's the one thing that you think is critical, and you bring to the table every day?

Jeremy  03:14

Look, I'm a really passionate person, people who know me know that I muck around, and I joke and I laugh with the kids. And I'm, I'm not a very serious person until it comes to education. And there's there's never a time where I'm more serious as well, when I'm doing educational discussions or, or meeting people and talking about education and selling a system. So I think I'm committed to education. Education has shaped my life, but it pays my bills, and it gives me the lifestyle I love. So I'm just I'm just grateful that I got into education. It was quite lucky how I got into education. But yeah, so to sum it up, that's the most thing about me from passionate, I'm pretty black and white sort of person but I'm very passionate about education, making a difference and helping other people to make a difference, and learn learning from other people and then helping people learn for myself. So I'm very passionate about it.

Loretta  04:07

Now, you've been a principal for nine years, would you consider yourself experienced?

Jeremy  04:13

No, I wouldn't. I would say I've had lots of experiences. And I've dealt with a lot of things over the years. But I wouldn't say I'm experienced because I don't think you ever become an expert. Principals, you're always on a learning journey. I've said previously, I started I was an AP for nine years and started as a principal and had no idea what to do on the first day. So I've done a nine year apprenticeship and still walked in and thought what on earth am I doing? I've got no idea. So your first three years is just a learning learning curve L plates as I as I sort of think about it, and then you go on your P plates and it's sort of six years into it. And by the ninth year you think I've seen most things that I'm going to see but I don't think you're ever an expert. It changes too much. Direction of Education Department, direction of schools, staffing and also community expectations too. Times that I think we have lots of experiences, but we never become experienced. 

Loretta  05:04

What's your philosophy around being the principal and the leader of the school?

Jeremy  05:10

I sort of base my philosophy on being at the front and being the role model of education. So I represent the education department. So I sort of have some some moral purpose and some, some guidelines, I stick by that keeps me facing north I suppose. But being the principal, ultimately, it all falls on my shoulders, I have to set the standards, I have to show everybody what to do. But I also have to then teach everybody the process to go through to have the school how I see it should be and then hopefully, we can spread my success or my school success with other people and improve their results that our system continues to improve. So ultimately, on the face of the education department in my community, and it's a big responsibility, but one that I love the challenge.

Loretta  05:59

And I've heard you say the fish rots from the head first.

Jeremy  06:02

Yes, I think I heard Tim Watson say that on one of the radio stations. As the principal, you set the tone of everything that's going to happen in your school community. You're the face of it, as I said, but ultimately, you set the pace of how your school's going, you set the direction, but also how other people come along with you. And it's a great opportunity. Some of the things that I do in a smaller school, I think are replicated or replicable across other schools. But I love seeing, you know, I go into the grades, every single grade in my school three times a day. Now sometimes it's fleeting, and it's passing by. But if I just hit one table, each time I go in and speak to the four kids or the five kids on that table, I can set the tone for my school, I can set the expectation of the work standard, I can make sure they're rolling up, they're doing all the things that I think are important. And by doing that three times a day, the teachers become accustomed to me being in their room, and you're supporting them. So initially, when I started, it was like rabbits in the headlights, the eyes would open up and the principal's come into the room when I started and people were quite worried about it. But when you've been in three times during the day, and you've spoken to the kids, and if somebody is misbehaving, you set them straight, and the teacher thinks, beauty this, this person's here supporting me. You build trust. And once you build that trust, you'll have people follow you wherever you go. So the support of the teachers is part of it. And when things go wrong in a classroom, and they often do, pin it back to three things. And the three things are really simple. And I got this through sport, basically football clubs, soccer clubs, cricket clubs all have the same thing. The first thing you need to do to be successful is every single person needs to know your vision, they need to know what the coach wants from them, they need to know what the principal wants, they need to know what the expectations are that this is what the lesson will look like. Or this is what a particular play on the sports field will look like. This is the position that the full forward will take. Or this is where the teacher should stand when they're doing the introduction. This is how the children should be sitting and watching. This is how we engage them. And that's the first thing they need to philosophically know everything I want from them, they need to know the spelling approach, they need to know our maths, how we go about it and the terminology we use. They need to know how long an introduction is and how long you know, the children will be moving to the next activity and how quick I expect it they need to know inside and out what my expectations are. So one of the first reasons you know things go wrong in schools, all we you know we have failing schools is that people don't know the principal's vision and goal. And I spend a lot of time talking to my people about that. The second part of that is and is the crucial part is they must have the skills to do it. It's okay to say I know that phonological belief Jeremy has but I now need to have the skills to implement that. I need to have the skills to stand in front of 20 children and teach this way. I need to understand why they have the skills, how to do it, I need the skills to work with a particular child who's calling out, wriggling and not listening. They have to be taught that they have to be taught our approach for every curriculum area explicitly, deeply and meaningfully. So they understand it, and they're on board. So they need to know what it is my expectations are, I need to take the time to give them the skills to truly understand it. And then the third part is they need to do it. And that's about motivation and ensuring there's nothing that demotivates them from doing their job. Now if something goes wrong, it is my responsibility because the fish rots from the head first, either they don't have the knowledge of what I expect. They don't have the skills so I haven't taught them or there's something demotivating them to do it, a lack of resources, a lack of time, whatever it is. So no matter what it is, we don't blame the staff, they don't turn up and say, I'm gonna have a crappy day today, I'm going to be mean to the kids. And I'm going to make sure nobody learns anything. Nobody ever does that. I truly believe it, they turn up to do their best, but one of those three elements is preventing them doing it, it is my responsibility to then step in and find the solutions, whether it be more support, whether it be professional development on my philosophies in my approach, or whether it be they need more resources in the classroom, or support with discipline or whatever it is, it's my responsibility, and that is not delegated the about if something goes wrong, the fish rots of the head first.

Loretta  10:44

What happens if someone is not philosophically and educationally aligned with you in your vision

Jeremy  10:52

I go back to it, that's my responsibility, it means I haven't explained my vision well enough, I haven't gone deep enough with them to see the cause and effect of why we're doing something, people don't just say, I'm going to argue with the principal for no reason, we haven't sold the message well enough. And that's why they're reluctant to get on board. Over time, you will get them all on board, if you genuinely believe what you're doing, and put the right support mechanism mechanisms in to do it, people aren't just going to do it for the sake of it, they need to believe in it. And that's my job to sell it on the head of the, you know, the head of the snake in a way or the head of the fish. And I need to make sure these people understand my philosophy and reason. So they really believe in it themselves. And then they'll have the skills and the ability to do What are the results of your stuff, opinion survey? They are very high, very high, high 90s and have been for four years or so. We're an interesting school, our parents are happy, our kids are happy. Probably the only person who's not always happy is me. Because I want to continue to continually improve the processes of what we're doing. I continue to get better at what we're doing. And I want to spread the word of what we're doing so that people really get an in depth understanding of it. Yeah, on, you know, I'm a happy person. I laugh. I laugh when I say I'm not happy. You know, that's the sort of person I am.

Loretta  12:12

What I'm thinking now about your AIP. What are your priorities? For the last nine years have been the same actually, writing and maths. And that's what it is. And that's the whole business when we talk about, you know, focusing on the main thing, the main things, the main thing, and that's something that Mark used to say, you can focus you can major in majors or major in minors. And our problem with our system is, too many people are majoring in minors that have 100 things going on of equal importance in the school. We have three things that are important- reading, writing, and maths. And that's what we stick to. So every year reading, writing, and maths is our focus, non negotiable. You know, people talk about, oh, you know, they want 10% or 20% of kids in the highest band. And I look at that and say, well, so you're saying you don't want 80% of kids in the highest band is irrelevant. I want every child to achieve their maximum capability, whatever that is. And if I have to say I want 100% of kids in the top two bands, well, that's what I put. And if I don't get there, it's not through want of trying for me and my staff. But I'm not gonna just put down a random figure just to keep people happy. When you wander up and down your corridor,  what sort of what sort of feel do you get?

Jeremy  13:32

Look, we have a beautiful school. That is it's not your traditional Victorian government school, we walked through in this main building that I'm in today, there's 180 kids roughly. And it's quiet, it's quiet, focused and orderly. The expectation is I can walk in any classroom. And without knowing what the teacher is teaching, I should be able to work it out by watching the kids and watching where the teacher is, what part of the lesson they're up to, I expect every classroom to look the same, feel the same and sound the same. So right up to the extent when you walk to the first classroom door, there shouldn't be the guidelines and expectations, what's learning is going to look like in that classroom. When we go to the children's books, there should be an overview on the very first page saying this is their expectation. And this is what they're going to do to make sure they do really work. We have a slogan, if you pick up your pencil, you do your best work. And there's no second, third, fourth draft. There's no coloring in pictures. We're here to learn. I can teach a monkey to copy and I can teach you now to do the zoo elephants painting. These kids are way too important to be coloring in pictures or drawing them. They're here to learn. So you'll see focussed, orderly classrooms, the whole way around. And if you do walk around, you usually see me in one of them. So I'm really lucky.

Loretta  14:51

Jeremy, it's pretty clear that you have a very, very strong philosophy. Is there any time that, that philosophy of yours where you stick to maths and English, and writing and so on, is there any time when that's not well received?

Jeremy  15:11

It's probably not well received from other principals and probably from some people in the department. And I think it's because they don't necessarily understand our purpose of what we're doing. 78% of my children, EAL English is not their first language. Our kids come from refugee backgrounds, our kids come from impoverished families where education is not high on the agenda, or the parents aren't always well educated.  It is changing. But historically, that's been our school. For every five minutes I'm not teaching reading, writing and math, these kids will be falling behind other schools where the children turn up in prep, already reading and knowing the alphabet, you know, we can't waste any time. One of the things we did, when I first arrived at the school is we just looked at the main things that the school were doing and what we could get rid of. And it's amazing how you fill a day  in a school and in the classroom, you know, we got rid of student teachers, because we didn't feel we were elite enough to have a next generation of teachers coming through our school. So until we got to a certain standard, we went four or five years without any student teachers in the school, which is not a system based approach. And it's not great for our system. But why would you send these young kids in to watch somebody else doing a lesson that's poorly done. Our teachers are elite, absolutely elite. But we didn't have the structure originally, when we started. We don't do work experience at this school. I'm not having kids say I went there six years ago so therefore I want to spend two weeks there. Now if you want to be a teacher, I'd consider it but other than that, forget it. Don't come into my school. If you want to be an electrician, you're wasting our time. And we've just gone through the whole school PMP makes no difference. It's the same with swimming. Controversially, unfortunately, we don't do swimming at this stage. Okay. You know, three kids, basically, the data says three, five to 14 year olds drown in swimming pools every year. More people die from horses than from swimming. If you're a 40 year old man who takes drugs, alcohol, or has a medical condition, you need swimming lessons, because you're the majority of people who drown. But in the school, the statistics aren't there. Now my heartbreaks if anyone drowns, but I have to make decisions for life on these kids. You know, we cannot do everything. We, you know, the assemblies are no longer first thing Monday morning, because that's prime teaching time we are that as we do it, instead of free time on a Friday, the last half an hour, we have assembly and we do a joke. So we have a great time to celebrate the week. Our whole school is structured around maximizing teaching and learning. And you name it we don't do we don't do concerts, you know, the meat parade of having a child go up there for 30 seconds to sing a song, but it takes a term to to do it, we don't do it, then we don't have fetes, concerts, fundraising, we don't do any of that. We do reading writing and maths to an elite level. And it's because we teach it more than any other school. So my teachers don't have a crowded curriculum, because they've got five hours in a day to do reading, writing and maths. Now in the grade five-six years, we diversify, we do in a bit more of an inquiry approach and a bit more of an integrated sort of approach. But in the primary, the junior level, it's reading, writing and math, a maths lesson might go for 15 minutes, or it might go for three hours. You've got the time if the kids are engaged and doing it, why do we stop when the bell goes, it's insane. It is just poor management, that we're worried about a clock. I'm worried about the person sitting in front of me and their education. And it goes from 59 to 60. And all of a sudden we stop learning. It's just a barbaric, old fashioned way of thinking. By doing three reading, writing and maths, you can extend it as long as you want. And you can come back to it in the afternoon. If the kids are into it and you haven't mastered a skill, you go back and do it. It gives us the time to master skills before we move on. So we don't have that crowded curriculum argument. A second language I've been forced to do this year and I'm going to do it to the best of my ability. Okay. But ultimately, if 78% of my kids don't speak English at home, why am I doing a second language? If you look at the top 20 countries in the world, just Google it the top 20 countries of education and have a look what their second language is. I think 18 out of 20 it's English. Yes, France is one of them. Sorry, Canada is one of them. Because they have the Canadian, French and the English, French and Luxembourg. And embarrassingly, also Luxembourg was a city but didn't realize that it's a country so the bottom line is if you if you want to do a second language, you want to be successful do English, because all the Asian countries are successful because they've got their native language and English. There's no data anywhere that I've come across. I've come across a lot of data, because I thought this argument, you know yearly to say that English is a second language or an alternate language in a school is going to work. If we're going to do it be fair dinkum about it as a country, let's do our, our native language of the people that live here before us, the Indigenous Australians and if we're in, we're under the land, we should be learning that they should be learning it from prep all the way through to Year 10. And it should be weighted for assessment, instead of weighting Latin and saying, We'll give you extra points if you do Latin in the in the private sector, you know, let's do our native language and actually talk about the people who were here before us and their land. And let's talk about that.

Loretta  20:33

We've known for a long time, though, that if you don't devote the time to it, you're not going to get the results that you want. So we've got to do swimming, we got to do you know, we got to do languages, and we got to do this. And we got to do that. And you spend half an hour or an hour a week, you know, look, in most schools after one year of a language, the kids can count to 10. That's about it. You know, so what's some, what sort of a response do you get from the department? Do you know why I bring this up, Jeremy? Because I think, you know, given the number of acting principals and principals who haven't been in the system, all that long as principals. Now, some times, at times were directed, and then other times the idea or the initiative is put to us, would we like to participate? And I think that it's easy for us to think, oh, we have to do it. There may be some things that we have to do. But there are a lot of things that we don't have to.

Jeremy  21:45

Yeah, look, I'm on our philosophy on the last person to do anything. I genuinely believe my kids are too important to trial initiatives from the department and stuff like that. I just don't do it. I'll be the last person I've managed. We're at FISO 1. And now we're on to FISO 2. Okay, I haven't even introduced FISO to my staff yet. I don't need to like both will last everything lasts a cycle and disappears.  We use the effective school model. And it's amazing, and we get the same result. It's just the language or the terminology is different. But if I jump from CSF one, to CSF two, to FISO, FISO 2, the E5. I can keep going and going and going. We bamboozle ourselves with with rubbish, okay, let's just stick to the core business of what we're employed to do, right? If there's a curriculum areas, work out what are the priorities and do them more than anything else, and go from there. The bottom line is I've been really lucky that education department has looked at my school as a bit of a trial and said, you're getting an outstanding result, not just in your area, but collectively. So whereas a couple of years ago, we were ranked eighth for NAPLAN growth in all schools in Victoria. So it is working what we're doing. So I was given a bit of freedom, I suppose. And they would come in and regularly check what I was doing. But they wouldn't be quite happy to move away with change of personnel. Now I'm just the number again. So the people want to tick off their performance management and say, yes, he's doing  this and he's doing that, that needs doing that for their own personal satisfaction and gains at the loss of our children. So if my results go down, I'll be writing in my strategic plan review or my review, due to the department making me do less of reading, writing and math as a result have fallen. And that's okay, I'm comfortable with that.

Loretta  23:39

You are comfortable?

Jeremy  23:40

I'm very comfortable. I know the the results we achieve are elite, I know that if people are going to intervene, my hands are tied, I'm not going to lose my job over a second language or over swimming, alright, or whatever other program but I won't lose my job overall. I'll push until I get it in writing, and then I'll implement it to the best of my capabilities. But there's a cause and effect. So why is a cause and effect Loretta, that the less teaching you do, yes, the less outcomes you'll get.

Loretta  24:08

But effectively, what you're saying is that if it's a directive, and in writing, you will do it. And so to implement a language, did you get that in writing? 

Jeremy  24:23

Unfortunatelty I did, Loretta, I defintely did. We're getting trained up Wednesday as we speak. 

Loretta  24:34

Okay. Well, that's, look, that's pretty clear. Okay. So if it's a directive and in writing, or if you're asked to do something, what do you do? Do you say put it in writing and make it a directive? Is that how you approach it?

Jeremy  24:48

Pretty much yeah, I won't take on anything until all the bugs or flaws, flaws are taken out of it. So a new program comes along, and they say, Oh, look, you know, we want you to undertake this activity, also. So this, see at the moment, but maybe come back in 18 months time, I'd love to discuss it, and I pull it off. And when other people want to do it and find the flaws and take them all out, and then it's really effective, and our children are improving because of this program, then I'll consider it. The one rule I have if there's money attached to it, I won't do it, okay? And that's because why lose control of what's happening, okay? If they put money to it, they're going to say, this is the pro forma we want you to use this is the timeline we want you to use. This is the data and the feedback that you'll need to do. Worse, this is the professional development you'll have to do when our people are pretty, pretty confident already. So if there's money attached to it, my suggestion is always run away, because you lose control of it, and you can't get out of it. Because you've taken the money. And it's one of the golden rules I live by: offer me money, it can't be any good. You having to pay me to do it on somebody else.

Loretta  25:56

Okay, so you talked about languages that was that has become a directive recently. Has anything else become a directive recently? Or not?

Jeremy  26:06

Not that not that is knocking on my door already. So I wouldn't think so. Swimming's always managed to do you know what we've had to do that. That's a..... If you can justify that there's nothing in there that's new to what you're doing or nothing that's going to enhance your programs, why would you pick it up and run with it? The HITs, the HITs are fantastic. But don't tell me we haven't been doing those strategies for the last 50 years in education without calling something different. But the HITs are the HITs, you know, it doesn't matter what you call them. And it doesn't matter if we bought it. It's irrelevant. You know,what, you know, 

Loretta  26:14

That's a real vote of confidence. And what it clearly demonstrates is that we shouldn't get, or we shouldn't feel under pressure to take on new initiatives, or even things like FISO. It's okay, to sit back a bit and try and digest it and see is it is it right for me and my school? And I mean, that's a very clear message. What we call them? Good teaching. Questioning and giving feedback and explicit teaching. Excuse me, I mean, that was a sort of teaching I did when  started teaching 45 years ago? 

Jeremy  27:23

Yeah. Look, you know, education goes in cycles, definitely, very much. So very much so. And what comes in will go out, you know, my concern is we have the new education minister who has kids and says, Oh, swimming is important, because my kids want to go swimming. We all have to do swimming. Next minister comes in who doesn't have kids, and all of a sudden, we're doing something else. It's like all these social programs. If your school doesn't need a social skills program, why you're running it? Why do you have to wait....

Loretta  27:48

Oh, you talking about respectful relationship. 

Jeremy  27:52

I'm not talking about anything in particular Loretta on the grounds they may incriminate me. But what I am saying is, your kids are well behaved and I know the rules. Why do you have to teach a program that says be respectful? If every time they walk in your school you demand they're respectful? Why do we do we teach please and thank you when they should be saying please and thank you, from the very first piece of paper you give them? Why are we talking about respect? And why are we talking about things like that? It should be part of good relationships with your children. We do not need programs mandated for every kid in the state to do things that the bulk of kids are doing already? Why don't we target the kids that aren't doing it and let the other kids do something else that's more engaging or more needed on their growth as a young person? We don't have to have blanket programs. We talk about differentiation in schools. The education department refuses to do it. Everybody does the eight topics. You all do this. Now as part of my performance management to do this, this, this and this, you'll all do that. That's not differentiating. So we differentiate in the classroom but not out of the classroom. It's a concern.

Loretta  29:02

How do you look after your own personal health and well being?

Jeremy  29:06

Many people laugh when I say this, but I go to the pub every night. Okay. And I metaphorically, metaphorically, I can't say it, but I do it. I drive past the Kalkallohotel every night on the way home, and I leave everything there. Now. I don't drink. And I definitely don't get out of the car at the park. But I metaphorically leave everything at the pub on the way past. And in the morning when I come back again, I pick it up. It doesn't matter what it is. It gets left at that pub, okay. And it's a really good way I can say I drive home, I've got half an hour to drive home. We're on processing the day. And then I get past this pub on the Hume Highway and I drop it off and I sort of smile when I go past the pub. And think do I wish I was a drinker I could go in there and but I don't I drive past that metaphorically drop off all my issues. I go home and I'm a dad when I get home. I'm a dad and I'm a husband. I'm not a principal anymore and and when my family settles for the night, well, then I become the principal again and do my extra work or whatever I have to do. But while my son's awake, and my wife's not preoccupied with Netflix or whatever else, I'm a husband, I'm a dad, and I have to be able to switch between those at the drop of a hat. And that's important. You can't consume your life, you can't be a principal all day, every day for the rest of your life. You're still, I'm still Jeremy. Doesn't matter who, you know, I'm quirky, I'm different. But I'm Jeremy,

Loretta  30:29

You've got at least another 15 years in the job...

Jeremy  30:33

Depending how this podcast goes, hopefully, yeah....

Loretta  30:38

Look, you know what? I reckon what our listeners hearing is gold. It really is. For the simple reason, we think that we have to do everything that's laid out on the table. Because we don't know the difference between what's a directive and what's not a directive. What we can choose to do and where we can push back and where we can honestly say, respectfully, look, not now. 

Jeremy  31:07

Yeah, and I think as principals, we have an obligation to be committed to our system, and I genuinely love our system, I do. But I doesn't mean I have to do every single thing that comes out through the system. I have to be selective of what those children in front of me need. Just as a teacher will change their tone based on the audience in front of them and will be stern when they need to be and will be giggling and laughing when they need to be. Principals need to be able to be adaptive and flexible. And we can't do everything, you will kill your staff and you'll kill yourself. You've just got to be good to yourself and look after yourself as well.

Loretta  31:43

All right, I'm just going to put one final thing to you. Okay. So this is a real thinking through step by step and articulating it. All right, I come to you, I ring you up and I say, Jeremy, this particular initiative has been presented to me. Look, it sounds really good. I get the feeling that we really, really should do it. But I don't want to how.  How would you advise that person to respond, step by step?

Jeremy  32:21

It's a good question. I'd probably say we've got a bad line, Can you ring somebody? No, I would always start by saying, Well, what are the needs of your children that have your school community? What are the needs? And will this enhance what you're trying to achieve? Okay, one of the core messages would be if you're going to add it in, what are you taking out? Because you can't just keep adding things in. So it'd be a bit of an analysis about what are we going to get out of this, if we do it well, academically, socially, emotionally, all that sort of growth that we talk about, but then you have to look at the other side. And so but at what cost? And is it gonna mean how many teachers and how much money or how much stress and time is it going to take? So you'd really need to analyze a plus delta or something simple like that, about the benefits of it, and the cost it's going to have on resources, but more importantly, your staff. And if it's gonna wipe your staff out and run them into the ground, walk away, it's okay to say no. But you need to make sure that even if it's an element of it, you take out of it to make your school a better place. It's worth listening to the the, I suppose, the person who's presenting it to you and the rationale behind it. But it needs to have some significant data of your own to justify doing it or else you're just adding more into the wheelbarrow until eventually the wheelbarrow tips over. The problem is we lose good people from our system, when that happens, whether they go away and change schools for you know, the grass is greener on the other side, and then they find out it's weeds, you know, or whether it's principals who retire early, or take long service leave, and we never see them again, or they get out of the system completely. We can't keep adding stuff into the wheelbarrow and expecting people to keep carrying that load. If you add something in the mentality is something's got to come out. And if something really big's coming in, it might be two or three things going out. It has to balance for the long term. And it's no use doing a program short term. If you're not doing it for four or five years don't bother doing it.

Loretta  34:24

Well, you know what, Jeremy, we've probably got hundreds of people out there saying Jeremy for minister of education. That is some really, really good advice. No, look seriously. You know, this, this whole topic of principal health and well being is a huge one. And, you know, Phil Riley's results again, show that principals are burnt out. We just have to look around our network and other networks to see how many principals out there.... And the other telling issue is how many acting principal positions that are out there as well. I mean, these are very, very telling stories, aren't they? And your story is phenomenal. Because you've demonstrated that you can be true to yourself, that you can still support the department and what it stands for. But you can take your own school, you know, your kids, their learning, and the well being of your staff to new heights. And that's what you do every day. And this is really why I wanted you to share your story and your journey with other principals because this is a unique story. And I have a great respect for you. I admire your work. I know absolutely admire what you stand for. So I'm wishing you all the best. And I have no doubt that in 15 years, the fact that you can leave all that crap at the Kalkallo pub on the way home. I'm confident that 15 plus years are certainly on the agenda. All the best. 

Jeremy  36:03

Thank you. 

Loretta  36:04

Thanks for listening to this latest episode of talking out of school, where we cover topics and dilemmas associated with the ups and downs and even the downright curious of the school leaders job. Want to know more? Then visit me at shaping leaders.com.au But for now, here's to staying ahead of the game..