The principal who has always done it his way....

36 years is a long time to be in education; but even longer as a primary school principal.  This principal has 'given back' in many ways, not just to his Dandenong North  community, but to state education generally.  Kevin Mackay is a remarkable man, mentor, leader and school principal who started out as one of those rambunctious naughty kids and today leaves a legacy like no other. This is his story....

Transcript

Loretta  00:03

You're listening to Loretta Piazza experienced school principal, mentor and coach. And together were talking out at school. You will hear from leaders who have lived and breathed so many experiences, good and bad, agonized over decisions, and of tossed and turned through countless sleepless nights. These are the people who will help you stay ahead of the game.  

 The average person has a career in education for around 45 years. How many educators can boast they've been principals for nearly 40 years? Today I'm talking to principal of Dandenong North, Kevin Mackay. Kevin believes he's the oldest in the state of Victoria, but not for much longer. Because his end date is not far away. Kevin's achievements are impressive, not just within the Dandenong North community of 51 cultural backgrounds, or it's 130 plus staff, but further afield. How many principals can boast they have 13 ex students now at their school as teachers? How many principals have made three documentaries about their school's many achievements, and how many principals aged in the late 70s are still fronting up every day with energy, passion, and a huge smile on their face? Meet Kevin Mackay.  

Loretta

Hello, Kevin. Welcome to talking out of school. 

Kevin  01:45

Hello, Loretta. 

Loretta  01:46

Your your story is a phenomenal one. Can you share it with us please, Kevin?

Kevin  01:52

I'm happy to try to Yes. It's interesting, you asked for that story, because on Friday of this week, the 26th we are launching our third documentary, which is about this school, and it's called 'giving back'. And it's the story of 13 staff who came back to this school. Having been students during my time as principal at this school. So there were little kids in the school ground and in the classrooms. And now they're teaching. And the theme of giving back is exactly what they view teaching it. And not only that, not only the teachers were in a school. But the education support staff too, because it includes support staff and teachers as well in the documentary giving back, which is the third in a trilogy. The first two blueprints of how to do things. One is about our EAL program, which is a three phase quite unique program. Another is about what we call  the reading factory, which is a literacy intervention program. But this third one called Giving back is about the why and the how not so much the how, the why. So going right back to this I've got a part in this new documentary where the filmmaker Ameld Treaserish, asked how did you come to be a teacher? And I said, I wasn't a very good student. I hated school. As a primary kid. I used to think school shouldn't be like this. For one thing. I remember the windows being opaque.You couldn't look out the windows at school. I used to think why would anyone in a school make the window so you can't see out of them? There's good things happening out there. Anyway, so I hated school. I used to get strapped and hit with bamboo sticks on the hands or feather dusters across the bay legs frequently. Probably deserved it. And when I went to technical school because I wasn't a very good student, the only thing I learned to do, fortunately was to be able to read pretty well but I couldn't do anything else. In fact, when I went to teachers college I had a percentile ranking of two in spelling that means of every 100 people I was better than one. So you can tell how badly that was. Anyway, my the principal of Brighton technical school, drew me aside one day, it was only the second time I've ever spoken to him. I think his name was Mr. Beresford, Marcus Beresford and he said to me, Look, you're mucking around. You're always in trouble. What do you think you're gonna do with the rest of your life? And being a smartass I said, I want to be a teacher, because I thought that would be the most obscure and ridiculous possibility for me that I could think of. And he said to me, if you pull your head in and knuckle down, I will make sure that you get into Teachers College. And all of a sudden, I thought, well, this man thinks I could be. And so I did knuckle down and did try hard and did okay in that final year, which was form five in those days. And he arranged for me for me to go to teachers colleage, for a studentship. And so I went into Treasury Place. And being the stupid kid I was at the time, sat outside the wrong office till 11 o'clock till I saw people coming out of the right office and going for morning tea, my interview was half past nine or something. And so I timidly went up to them and said, Excuse me, I'm here for an interview. And they said, Well, you've missed your time. And I said, Well, what happens now? And they said, Well, you can sit here till we've finished at the end of the day, and if we have any time left over, we'll interview you. If not, you're done. So I sat there for the rest of the day. And fortunately, at the end of the day, they still had some time, they interviewed me, and I made it to teachers college. So there's the start of me having been influenced by a teacher, by a principal, to become a teacher myself. So I think a little bit like you probably relate to the kids who muck around a bit fairly well with them. Because I think I understand them. And so I was appointed as a senior teacher to Parkdale Primary School. And, again, fabulous kids. But we had a, I had been a principal for four years. And I didn't like being told on the first day that I was going to have to wear a tie for the next day. So I went to the principal after the first staff meeting and said it's a pity you said that everyone will be wearing a tie tomorrow, because you're going to look a bit silly in the morning because I won't be wearing a tie. And I don't care if the women will wear dresses that are below the knees, but I won't be wearing a tie. He said, Oh, couldn't you wear a tie and put it on the back of the chair? I said, Well, what's the point of that? No, I won't be wearing that. So anyway, he called the DI you know me, because, you know, things didn't go all that well.  And the day I came in, and about 12 weeks into the school year, said, I want to see your planning, I want to see your work program or to see your evaluation. And I pulled them all out. And he was very disappointed that he didn't think I'd have them so he said I want you to go to nearby Parktown to see what a senior teacher looks like. I said, every time I have a shave in the morning, I can see what one  looks like. I don't think I need to go so anyway, as you can see, things didn't go well. So I transferred from there to Clayton Primary School, promoted actually to assistant principal or deputy principal, I think it was called  Clayton Primary. And Arthur Shakey was the principal there and I called him I said, What grade do you want me to teach? When I first met him, he said, I don't want you to teach, I want you to be out of the classroom, which I found strange in a regular, fairly small school. But anyway, was another great experience. And that was where I met Jenny who I married later on. So I was there for I think two years. And I put in this great big list of schools, which included Dandenong North and Dandenong West and when the appointments came out, I was appointed as a Band 4 to Dandenong West.

Loretta  09:08

And a Band 4 would be like?

Kevin  09:13

AP Three. Oh, two or three. Yeah. Was pretty senior at the time. Yeah. And it was an interim classification. And so I was there as a Band 4 and then because it was an interim classification, I was applying for other jobs as well. I was deputy principal at Clayton so I applied for a Basnd 4 which was a promotion from deputy principal. That's right. And they put down this list and I was appointed to Dandenong West and that's okay. I'm looking forward to it. Next thing there was an appeal and the appeal was upheld. Everybody was moved down or up one on the list that they'd put in. And my next one was Dandenong North. So instead of Dandenong West, I got appointed to Dandenong North.

Loretta  10:12

Yeah. Because back in those days when you applied for jobs, it was based on seniority.

Kevin  10:17

Yeah. You just whatever number you were. Yeah, that's right, exactly. So I came to Dandenong North, and there were two Band 4 people there. And George Reed was the principal. And it was a fabulous looking School with the LTC buildings. But you know, I've been used to sort of older schools. So I thought it was pretty modern. These days, when I look at the old buildings, I can't imagine now I thought that. The last of them just disappeared in this year, I think. So, I was AP Band 4, which was the equivalent of AP here for three years. And then George retired, and I put my hat in the ring. And I was ranked second on the interviews. And which I was dirty about. The person that was ranked first was already a prin. And so when I look back, that was the correct decision. And I had no right to be dirty about it. But the person who was ranked first also was ranked first at another school and chose to go to the other school. And then lasted a week, and never ever came back. So they got me. And I've been here for 36 years as principal.

Loretta  11:40

Wow, that's, that's an incredible innings. All right, let's now talk about your last 36 years. .And very soon you're hanging up the tie. Sorry, you're not wearing ties. 

Kevin  11:57

That's right. Look, at first, this was a tough school. It was tough. The the last day of school, no teacher would leave their car in the car park here because the cars would all be agged and superglue would be put in the locks and and the parents thought that was all okay. You know, because I'd be talking to the parents saying you know what your kids are doing? Oh, yeah. Well, that's what you do at the end of the year, you know, so anyway, so every Monday morning, and we would spend 1000s of dollars repairing the graffiti and the vandalism damage, which I haven't been used to. And the teachers are stressed out of their minds, I can't believe it now, but go into the staff room was just a full of smoke, smoking their heads off and all whinging about rules and stuff. But having come from a youth training center, where two students died during a soccer match. But a footy stuck up on the roof or a minor fight was of no consequence. To me. It wasn't anything to be stressing about. So I was probably a bit too relaxed for the stressed out teachers at the time. And some of them used to say, well, Ipay people to do my yard duty. So I would say as a band 4 teacher, then I'll do it. Pay me. And I d d. So I did extra yard duty and the teachers would pay me not all of them, but a couple. That's how bad it was. They were just scared of the kids. So I remember one day people saying we need to rule for this and another rule for that. And and I was just jack of it by the end. I said listen at a staff meeting. I said, we've got a list of rules here, it's it's about a mile long, the kids are not paying any attention to those rules. What's the point of putting another rule up and I had some photographs of some of the kids that had been in the Youth Training centre, I call them kids but they were young men, standing up there with certificates under their chins because we'd gotten onto that token economy and the positive reinforcement stuff up there. That's how we turned it around. I said if this works with a 17 to 21 year old kid surely it would work with these kids here. And so we got a little group together. And Jenny was among that group. And we designed what we called a self esteem program, which was based around badges that you could give out to kids instantaneously. If you saw them doing a behavior you wanted to reinforce, like playing properly or using their manners, you gave them the badge with that sort of message on it. And then we celebrated the badges at the weekly assemblies. So we had enough people who believed that that might work. And we got it going, and it did work. And people can see that it was making a difference in terms of behavior. And to this day, that's still what we do. I mean, I've got, we had a review, four or five years ago, and the group of kids came in with a presentation to the reviewer. And part of it was, this is a school with no rules. Instead, we have the four Cs. I couldn't believe the kids actually got it to the extent that they did. And they were selling the message that I had sold the staff 30 years before. So you know, it's very, very, very powerful. It's just fabulous. And just yesterday, a CRT was saying, I can't believe how well behaved these kids are, and they want to learn. I mean, really, that is the secret. And that's why I hated school as a kid. And that's why I would love to be at the school as a student, because it's how I believe schools should be.

Loretta  16:17

Kevin, what do you stand for, as a person and as a principal?

Kevin  16:23

I stand for equality of opportunity. And, and John Mooney talks about reaching children reaching their potential. That's what I want to see, I want to see kids being confident enough to have a go because all sorts of possibilities exist, and especially for girls from non English speaking backgrounds, who weren't even allowed to go to school, in some of their own countries, so I stand for access, and success, access to programs and access to opportunities, and success for all in whatever realizing whatever talents people have, and they have a magnificent range of talents. As an example, just yesterday, I filmed a girl tutoring another girl in a language that only they spoke, and teachers didn't speak. But the teacher was telling me about this marvelous transition where she was having trouble teaching the girl who I'm talking about, the student who just come to our school from Afghanistan. And she asked another girl who spoke the same language, could she interpret and teach? And she said, the transition in the girl who taught was just amazing. She said, she's a girl that doesn't have much confidence, usually. But she became a teacher, and all of a sudden was assertive and confident. And that's the sort of thing that that I love to see. Because if you didn't have people who were prepared to take risks and take chances, as teachers, you would never see that if it was all just locked up and lockstep. So yeah, I'm for realizing potential. That's really what, what we do.

Loretta  18:36

What's the biggest challenge at your school today?

Kevin  18:40

Today? Keeping, keeping the marvelous staff that we have, we have just a fantastic staff. And that's the basis of this film, the documentary we're releasing on Friday, when people stand up in in being interviewed in a documentary, and they say, when I think about my lifetime career, I want to give back what I got from this school. I mean, what, it's just fantastic to hear that, because that's what schools are about realizing potential. And here's these people basically saying, I was able to fly because of what happened to me in this school. Now I'm going to help other people, lots of them to fly. So you get this multiplying effect. You know, we get a better society from that. And that's we fit people not fit them. We help them to be a good part of a good society. That's our job really. We pass on the civilization from one generation to the next. And we do it by helping them to be the best contributors to that society that they possibly can be.

Loretta  20:01

I'm wondering about your school in terms of staff retention, a lot of a lot of principals are saying that they've got staff who are leaving, and they're having trouble getting CRTs. What's the situation at your school?

Kevin  20:17

Okay, that's a good one. We used to say, nobody ever leaves our school. Now, that was probably until 2013. And we've got, I hate to say it, but millennials coming through have a different point of view. We have this year had two people who've gone from a great Primary School to secondary schools. Why I do not know, they both want to teach, one went as a phys ed teacher, another went as a home economics teacher, because she loves cooking. And the phys ed teacher wanted to teach secondary students. Now that that's unheard of, for us. We've got another one that wants to be a cooking teacher too. But I put it down to millennialism. To a degree. Well, yeah, and they want to try different things. And who would be against that? I'm not against it, it just makes it hard for us, because we've got great teachers, I don't want to lose any of them. As far as CRTs, our school has a very, very good reputation, we don't have any trouble getting them, they want to come here, because they know that the kids are well behaved. And the program's well documented. So they'll be able to do do their work easily, not easily, but know what to do. But it is a problem still for us. We've got such good teachers, because we've got a whole range of intervention programs. We should have probably for our enrollment of 770, probably about 32 to 35, teachers, or staff, we've got 130 staff.

Loretta  22:11

Is that due to equity funding?

Kevin  22:12

That's equity funding, but we spend it on people because people make the difference and people connect with other people. So having the right mix of staff is very important for us. We would be the only primary school in Victoria with a multidisciplinary team, including a psychologist, OT, music therapist, D&I coordinator, special education teacher.

Loretta  22:39

Are these people that you actually employ?

Kevin  22:43

We employ, we don't get anyone from the network people because they're all sitting on couches at home, providing advice over the telephone. So lucky, we did it. But it makes such a difference. The speech therapist, for example, it wasn't uncommon for us to have kids with speech issues, who would spend a year trying to work, whatever the issue was. Now we've got a speech therapy assistant program. So for support staff who are trained by the qualified speech therapist, and under her supervision, and we get kids through the whole program in a month, and back in their classes learning more effectively. Now, that just wouldn't have happened before. And no one would even know that that's possible if we weren't doing it. So we're doing a whole lot. The other example or an another example is the EAL program. We get kids fluent in English, in three years, and with correct grammar in three years now, it's not uncommon for people to take say it takes six years, and English language schools would probably aim for four, but we get it in three. And we've got people who are in this documentary on Friday, they're giving back one who was saying I came to this school in year three, and I couldn't speak English at all. And here I am now working at this school and speaking perfect English, and it's just fabulous. It's a complete turnaround. So yeah, in recent times, we have lost a couple or three staff and of course pregnancies where we get a lot of young staff and naturally that that's the time of childbearing for many of them. So we don't lose them permanently. But we lose a tiny fraction of them permanently because they don't want to come back full time. And that provides another difficult.... Yeah,

Loretta  25:01

Yeah. Well, they're organizational issues, you know, and the fact also, they probably are really good people. So you want to accommodate them. But gosh, it's hard. Kevin, just moving on a little bit in regards to principals. And I know you've been a State Councillor on the Australian Principals Federation for a very long time. You know, so you get to see and hear a lot of things. But why do you reckon people are just not applying for principal jobs today?

Kevin  25:34

Because they're disillusioned with, with what it was, in fact, I was talking with four principals just this morning. And they're all saying, We love working with kids. We love working with people, which is what we thought the job was about. But as in my case, all I do all day now is sit looking at screens. And I've got.... looking my emails open here beside me. Let me just see..... But the other day, I had 456 unread emails. I don't care. But a lot of people do care. And, and that worries them. And it just gets you down. I mean,

Loretta  26:23

Why doesn't it worry you?

Kevin  26:25

I won't let it worry me. That's why I won't let it worry me. Because I suppose....And it's not just because I'm retiring in a short while. It hasn't worried me for the past 10 years. I've always said, if it's important enough people will ring you and they do. But you know, it's it's just really, there's a continuous thing. And just one example is regional forums. Now. I remember the first one of the regional forums goes back, I forget how many years probably eight or nine. And it was a half day forum. And there was some reason to have it because something was new was probably an EBA outline. So we went to that. And they had, there was some good information. But there was some stupid activities that probably the new... wasn't SEILS at the time,  it was RNLs- regional network leaders. And they were wanting it to stay ours, which is another thing. I mean, we used to run our own principal network, and it was ours. We, in Dandenong, applied for the funding to run our network and we're given a grant and we ran it ourselves. And the way we ran it was what principals needed and wanted at the time. We used to share issues, quite openly, you know, if things weren't working, we'd run around the table and go through pretty much what happens at state council sometimes, you know, things that were working, things that weren't working, and it was a great support network. Now, if you're going into a network meeting, it's a briefing and it's a scripted briefing. People became principals I believe, because they thought they were semi autonomous. And the autonomy is gone. You're marching to the beat of someone else's drum all the time. So the forums have now become a regular thing. But they still are just a briefing. You know, you're hearing what's already written down as it is, if you can't read.

Loretta  28:50

Do you think there, well we know there are a lot of inexperienced and young principals in schools.....

Kevin  28:58

The young ones are going to have some fun I reckon.

Loretta  29:01

Do you think they're worried that...

Kevin  29:03

They don't know. They don't know enough to be worried. They're going to find out and they will be but they don't know enough to realize why they should be worried.

Loretta  29:12

What do you reckon they need to worry about?

Kevin  29:14

They need to worry about burnout. They need to worry about the unexpected trap that's going to have them in the news that day and get them taken out of their school and either put out to pasture or put somewhere else where they can't do any harm because it can happen overnight. And I'll give you an example. We we had a kid with cancer behind the eye at one stage many years ago, and a pretty, pretty severe condition. And the parents didn't have much money so we were taking up collections and buying petrol so that the single dad can visit the year five boy in a hospital, and we were getting clothing and all sorts of support all sorts of directions anyway, after a period of about six months, the child came back to school, and was out in the playground and kept reporting that he was being bullied. In actual fact, he was the bully, but he kept reporting, he's being bullied. So we would be intervening and trying to help. In the finish, I said, look, the only way to make sure that you can be safe, and we weren't worried about an injury to that eye area, is you play inside. And you can have any of your friends that you like, and we'll get your games or whatever you like. But that way we can make sure that you're safe. And the view that the child took and his parents took was that he was being punished and kept in when the other kids weren't. So he went to the newspapers. And of course, the television stations are up and down filming out of the car. And we had a rusty side. Yeah, they filmed the rusty side and put that on the new so it looks worse than it is. And all of a sudden, you know, we're getting complaints. I get the regional director saying, Well, what's going on? What's happening here? And when I explained the situation, we were lucky, we had a very good Regional Director Peter Greenwell, who was very supportive. And when I told him the story about the support, we've given a disparity show this, this is just rubbish. He said, Would you like me to front the TV cameras? which I thought was just fantastic, almost unprecedented. And I said, Yes, I would like you to front of them. Because those are the sorts of things could sink you overnight. And years later, I met that parent in the supermarket somewhere. And he's gone, oh, look, I'm sorry, I was wrong. That was my kid. You know, but it's too late. Yeah, that's, and it's as simple as that. You can be out of your school, taken out because of what happened from that.

Loretta  32:15

Apart from not reading all your emails, how do you keep well, and how do you keep on top of things?

Kevin  32:22

Well, it's a shame you haven't got your video camera on because you'd see a complete mess in here. Becauseat a quaretr to five, I just get up and walk out. I don't care what it looks like. And then I come back and start again the next day. I don't take it with me. And I suppose having been in the schools and places I've been, it's still small compared to what I saw in youth Training Center, and the lives of some of those people. And what can happen in those places. You know, it's nothing compared to that. So it's all a matter of perspective, I think. And I've been lucky because things, where programs we put in place, have worked. And the school is a good school. And so we don't have any behavior problems. We don't have any rules. Still, we've just got the four C's: care, courtesy, cooperation and common sense. And they work and in fact, we had a building program, the BER Building Program, and the project supervisor was here. And he said, I saw your four C's up on the side. He said, that's what we're doing for induction. Anyone comes in for induction, the builders, he said, I just show them the four C's that you have and I tell them, that's your induction. Do that and you'll be safe. And it does work. And in this documentary that's going to be screened on Friday, I couldn't believe again, I'm hearing from our teachers and staff who work here, but we're here as students, saying that the four C's directs their life. You know, they they live their life by the four C's as adults. So good. Is that from the primary school? You know, it just stuck.

Loretta  34:25

Whatever it is, and for you, it must, it must make you feel really good. Kevin,

Kevin  34:30

Oh, I'm so proud of all the people here. They just do a fair and you know, the difference between a good school and a great school is the is the staff. You can have good staff, we can have great stuff but great staff need to be vocational. They need to be there because they want to be there and they want to make a difference and they believe in it. If you've got that then you've got a great school but without that you can't have a great school.

Loretta  35:02

Well, retirement is imminent. What's retirement looking like for you?

Kevin  35:10

Well, Jenny and I have registered a consultancy business. And I would like to stay connected. And I've said to people here at the school, if you lke, I'd be happy to come back as a CRT. I love teaching still, but not full time. Just occasionally. But I'd say if you've got sports days, say we get into the regional finals, I can drive the bus and be the teacher if you need it. So that sort of thing's wonderful.

Loretta  35:41

Well, it shows that you want to maintain the connection. 

Kevin  35:44

The kids, the kids have made me well, nearly cry really. Pity you haven't got the visual because little Bill came in yesterday was something that said, Why do you have to leave? You know, I keep saying it's because I'm old. But it's not really and I do feel guilty about it, actually. And people say you shouldn't feel guilty, but I do. I feel guilty for leaving them when they have such needs, you know?

Loretta  36:18

Yes. But think about the atmosphere and the environment that you have created. So that your legacy lives on through other people and the work that...

Kevin  36:29

It does, but it can still live on if I stayed longer too. Anyway, yeah, I have. I am leaving, but I do feel guilty. And people say you shouldn't. That doesn't help me. I still will

Loretta  36:41

Look... your work and Jenny's, in terms of your consultancy, so that's another another, you know, giving back. And so yeah, that's what you can certainly do and I suppose minus all the other distractions that are....

Kevin  37:01

Yes, yeah, that's that's going to be the good thing. I mean, I am over filling out forms and justifying what we're doing and spending, for example, the recent review, we spent five days just on the review, and about two weeks getting ready for where we weren't involved with a staff and a lot of programs didn't continue, because I do them personally, some of them and and our other APS do them. And so they didn't happen. And there's just crazy stuff. I mean, what's more important, filling out the forms, or actually doing the programs? We know what to do, we don't need somebody coming in and telling us you know, the research says this, because we've contributed to the research.

Loretta  37:50

Well, Kevin, I'd like to say thank you very much, your many, many years, not just as a principal, but all the other work that you've done, for example, in the youth training center, and, you know, all those initiatives, you know, they will go with you they are powerful. And not only Dandenong North, but I think the Australian Principals Federation, there are many elements of the education department that those elements are better because of your contribution. You know, you leave a phenomenal legacy. But you're also a great person. Because I know the 14, 15 years that I've been a member of the APF State Council, I always gained a lot from having conversations with you asking your opinion on things. And

Kevin  38:46

well, it was a two way I gained a lot from the same conversation. So thank you.

Loretta  38:50

Yeah, well, but all the best Kevin, and I really hope that we're able to keep in contact because I want to follow these documentaries and watch them and hopefully our listeners will too.

Kevin  39:06

I will send you the link after after Friday.

Loretta  39:10

So is it okay if I put it on my website? 

Kevin  39:14

Yes. 

Loretta  39:15

OK, good. And no doubt if people have any questions or want to know more, they will be able to contact you. So Kevin, thank you very much. Wishing you all the best and may retirement bring you bigger and better things.

Kevin  39:30

Thank you very much later on. As a writer I'm sure it will.

Loretta  39:35

Thanks for listening to this latest episode of talking out of school, where we cover topics and dilemmas associated with the ups and downs and even the downright curious of the school leaders job. Want to know more? Then visit me at shaping leaders.com.au But for now, here'sto staying ahead of the game.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai