The principal, low SES school and who wouldn't have it any other way.

Whilst equity funding to disadvantaged schools is a god-send, the work involved is huge. Principal Phillip Banks doesn't shy away from his tough gig.  The Victorian education system puts an unrelenting emphasis on PISA and Naplan results, but this principal knows that the wellbeing of his students is paramount and he has to get this right before any meaningful instruction can occur. Kudos to principals like Phillip Banks who courageously put first things first.

Transcript

Loretta  0:03  

You're listening to Loretta Piazza experienced school principal, mentor and coach. And together we're talking out at school. You will hear from leaders who have lived and breathed so many experiences good and bad, agonized over decisions and have tossed and turned through countless sleepless nights. These are the people who will help you stay ahead of the game. 

Those of us who have worked in low SES schools know only too well, the challenges. While getting lots of extra money in the form of equity funding might seem attractive, the work and the accountability that comes with it isn't so great. My guest today is Phillip Banks, experienced principal of a smallish school in Melbourne's north. It's a school categorized as very disadvantaged. Philip acknowledges it's a tough gig, but he wouldn't have it any other way. 

Loretta

Oh, hello, Philip, welcome to Talking out of school.

Phillip  1:12  

Thanks, Loretta. It's great to be here.

Loretta  1:15  

Philip, can you tell us a bit about yourself? You've been a principal for a while. You've been at a few different schools. Fill us in?

Phillip  1:22  

Ah, I have Yes. I took over as head teacher at Beveridge in 1991. I was about 27. And that was four years....

Loretta  1:35  

...doing our math to find out how old you are.

Phillip  1:39  

I know. I'll tell you, I'm 59. But But the interesting thing with Beverage I just saw it advertised as a multicampus prin 4 school, a week or so ago. So it certainly changed since I had it when we had 35 kids. Yeah, yeah, there was...we always knew that would come but but didn't know how long it would take. Went to Lake Boga after that in the country, that had 100 and something kids. That was actually a principal contract. And then back to the West in Melbourne at Sunshine. And then I came to the north, and I've been in the north ever since: Broadmeadows, Bundoora, Hurstbridge, Preston Northeast. Sounds like I'm running away from something. But just the way the just the way things have gone. But I've enjoyed working in the north. That's for sure.

Loretta  2:35  

You mentioned that you were principal at Broadmeadows. Were you part of Wayne Craig's regeneration project?

Phillip  2:42  

Pretty much got out just before that happened. So I was at Broadmeadows West Primary for five, five or six years as principal. And we were asked to sort of canvass whether there would be interest in that. Didn't call it that, then Loretta. We didn't, I didn't really know what what it was being called then. But it wasn't that. It was just that something needed to be done. We knew that there was going to be a merger of different schools. I don't think we ever really understood because we didn't know Wayne very well at the time. And so we didn't really know to what extent, you know, he would take that and but we knew there was something something happening. And there were schools there that ... mine had I think about 200. There were schools of 50. Things were shrinking. And yeah, look, I've heard his podcast, but I've heard him talk about that before. Things weren't weren't going all that well there. But the one thing I sort of decided for myself was that having been there five or six years, I thought that whatever, whatever was going to come out of it and whatever was going to be new, I thought would be best served by new people. And so I moved on before pretty much before most of that started.

Loretta  4:09  

Okay, your current school. So how long have you been at your present school?

Phillip  4:14  

Five and a half years.  I've been here .. started here in October 2016. So replaced Joe Libreri, who had been here for 22 years before that. So there was there was a lot to live up to. But but really, it's a great school and does does a wonderful job for the for the kids in the community here. So and Joe sort of set that set that up over a long period of time. So I really like it.

Loretta  4:50  

Okay, I'm interested in the stats on your school. Okay, you're a low SES. So what are some of the department statistics around SFO?

Phillip  5:03  

Well, we're point 7.7948. So so we're very high SFO; point 618. SFOE, in terms of, you know, in reality, what that means in reality is that so so we had 204 students in this year's census, 148 of those are funded under equity. So so we've got about $670,000 a year in equity funding. Again, 45% of our population is funded under EAL so, so we, it's interesting, and when I compare my time here, to Broadmeadows, so two very similar schools, I imagine, though, probably using different comparisons, then, but I think they'd be very similar in their outlook. And we're better equipped now with the equity funding to deal with this stuff. But I think I'd forgotten just how much work there is, in in these kids that come in, at prep. And some of them have had some preschool, some of them haven't, some of them have English, some of them don't. And, and I'd forgotten how much work it is for the teachers to actually get them to a point where they're competing, even remotely similar to others, other kids in other schools, it's a and then there's the mobility, they come and they go, and, and that can be really, really disappointing, when you've put so much work into some kids, and then all of a sudden, they're not here anymore. So I'd forgotten that. But having worked in some other schools in Hurstbridge, and some of those more middle middle class schools, this is where I think I do my best work in schools like this. And this is where I'm, I'm happiest. And so I'm glad I'm here, glad we've got some resourcing to deal with what we have to deal with.

Loretta  7:13  

Okay, you mentioned that you get a significant amount of equity funding.  What is the criteria for that? Do you know, off the top of your head?

Phillip  7:24  

Oh, look, it's it's, it's based on and I'm, I'll stand corrected from anyone who knows better, but it's all about the demographics of the of the community. So who's employed? I think, their English level of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population. And I think it's just a mix of all of that. And they come up, they come up with, with that figure I imagined, it's based on the SFOE. And they come up with that figure. I mean, it's it's a lot of money for a small school like this. And the other thing they've done is they've built in a, something that I think they prevents what they call equity shock. So if your numbers do a dive, your equity funding can only ever reduced by five or 10%, in any given year. So so it also gives you surety about about what you're doing this year, next year, the year after, as opposed to something where they might pull the rug out from you at any moment. 

Loretta  8:39  

So it would be fair then to say that you're likely to get a substantial amount of equity funding, if you are a very low SES school?

Phillip  8:50  

 Yes. 

Loretta  8:51  

And that, and that sums you up? 

Phillip  8:53  

Absolutely. That sums it up. 

Loretta  8:56  

And it's because you are such a low SES school that I thought it would be really good to talk to you. Now. The school that I was principal at for 18 years was also a very low SES school, but not as low as yours. And, and those of us who have been principals in these types of schools understand that these schools have those added challenges. But can we start off first, what are the highs for you as principal in your school?

Phillip  9:30  

You know, it's, it's little things, it's not, it's not big things. Sometimes sometimes it is but so we have for instance, kids who just are so good at demonstrating their gratitude. They are so pleased with anything that you do for them. This they're so respectful and and so so oh, it's lovely to see kids who, who have done something and maybe become a captain or a vice captain. Things like taking a group of kids to Vietnam, where we have a sister school in Hanoi, a couple of years ago, there were some kids on that trip, who might never leave the country again. But but had a had a wonderful 10 days with us in Hanoi that was, and that was great to go and actually be part of that. So. So things like that, you know, I touch wood every time I say this, Loretta, because, you know, the next one could be walking in the gate to enroll. But we haven't really had had a problem child in terms of overly poor behavior for quite a while now. Now, we've got kids with a multitude of problems. But but they, but they're not physical is if you know what I mean. And, you know, when I say... I said to one boy, the other day, you're in grade five, now I remember when you were in prep, and, and he's, he's been a, he's been a not a challenge. But we've had to put a lot of work into him over a period of time. And he would no sooner disrespect us or do the wrong thing by us than he would, you know, fly to the moon. Because he knows, this is where he's, he's comfortable. And this is where he likes to be best. And a lot of our kids are like that.

Loretta  11:33  

So would you say then they lack that sense of entitlement?

Phillip  11:39  

Oh, absolutely. They know, no question about that. I've seen kids that have a sense of entitlement. I've spoken to kids who have a sense of entitlement and, and being their principal, that's not these kids, they just don't, they don't understand the concept of a sense of entitlement. And when you think, you know, the going home to families that may may or may not work or and if they are working, both parents could be working, they could be working late, they could be doing shift work. They're not earning a lot of money. There's not a lot for them. So what they do get they're very, very grateful for. And so the school, the school just quietly helps out wherever it can, whether it's shoes... I've got staff here that have been here a long time, who have worked out how to deal with things like this, though, we've got clothing, we've got shoes, we've got, you know, runners, obviously, all the official channels, State Schools Relief and so on, but that there are many, many other ways that we help families out. So and our kids just very, very grateful for that; not entitled at all.

Loretta  13:05  

What are some of the challenges you face?

Phillip  13:07  

Right now and you say this so having said all that, I mean, obviously our kids have some have some serious challenges, and we've done a lot of work with Berry Street around trauma-informed practice. And that's really improved the way we approach it. So some of our kids have just seen things that no child, no adult for that matter, should ever have to see. And, and being involved in things we have, we have a lot of contact with Department of Human Services, child protection, other agencies, and so on. So so the challenge is one, getting them to school every day. And, you know, I'm not here to gild the lily in any way, shape or form. So our attendance figures now absence figures, I should say, are in the mid 20s. And way too high. Way too high. We they weren't as high as that before COVID. But

Loretta  14:15  

What's the state average? 

Phillip  14:16  

What'shappening to them now or what's happened with their parents is going to happen to them and and we just and yet when they do come to school, and and if they get you know, they get a few days in a row, you can see that the kids are they're as happy as happy here and they would be in any school I would think. They just love to come to school. So that's a that's a real problem. Honestly, with the tutoring program, and and all the extra funding we get through equity. Sometimes we just struggled to find time to deal with as many things as we have to deal with because our kids can be so far behind. So we really need to do a lot of language intervention and, and mass intervention, but, you know, we're lucky to have that funding to be able to do that. So that that's challenge. Some of our couple of our kids still have still have some real issues with with their peers. And that can be that can be an issue as well. As I said, we don't really have anyone who's overtly aggressive at the moment. So that's, that's nice. But that could, you know, that could change. As I said, tomorrow.

Loretta  15:35  

Don't we know it? 

Phillip  15:36  

I don't wanna get too ahead of myself, Loretta.

Loretta  15:39  

That's exactly right. What are your NAPLAN results like?

Phillip  15:48  

Well....

Loretta  15:48  

Maybe you prefer not to talk about that. 

Phillip  15:51  

Well, I wouldn't actually, but but since you asked, I suppose I'd better, I guess. Not not so good last year, and they never, they never obviously. Right at the top, we have to in terms of the top two bands and the middle two, we have far too many kids in the middle two. And not enough in the top two. So we, we just, we had a we had a we had a not a good result last year in year five, maths and reading. But that I'm assured that things will be better this year. But so I guess what we what we're trying to do in terms of growth, is move our growth into the high high growth area. So too much low growth, too much medium growth, and move it across. So we've actually NAPLAN is one of those things where I, I don't like making excuses about NAPLAN. Because I think it sounds really pathetic when a principal makes excuses for a NAPLAN result. But but there are a few and, and one for us was we just we had a cohort that was struggling. So that and that happens sometimes. But what we've done, what we've done now is that, again, as part of having equity funding, we're able to have a literacy consultant, and, and a numeracy consultant. And we've put, we've just sort of redirected staff into the junior school and a little bit into the middle school. And, and just trying to sort of make make those changes from from the bottom up. And that's going really well at the moment. So we'll see how that translates into into NAPLAN. What I was going to say about NAPLAN before is that, to be fair on it, it's they've never sprung surprises on us. I don't think anyway. It's always been pretty consistent. Our kids really struggle with the nuances of of the language in NAPLAN. And so you know, that they don't go home and have conversations like that. They don't even and I'm not just talking about EAL kids, I'm talking about all of our kids. It's just not what they do. They have those conversations here, but not at home. And sometimes they don't speak English at home. And so some of that NAPLAN is just so foreign to them, they really struggled to understand what it is it's asking. So that's that's a struggle. And again, that's starting to sound like an excuse. But it's just a it's a fact, and you probably had similar problems at your school Loretta that it can be a can be a real problem for for our cohorts of kids. So So considering that didn't do too badly.

Loretta  19:05  

I often reflect on the department and what I think about the most was when we went into lockdown in that first year of COVID. Do you think that the education department has got a holistic view of schools or do you think there is a lot of inequality, inequity I should say? There is that inequality. But do you think the Department is fair dinkum, about tackling the inequity in our system?

Phillip  19:45  

Well, I guess I'd have to say given given I've been in schools without funding without equity funding and now we're so I mean, that's it. That's a big difference. So I guess I'd have to say that they've they have put money in into, into trying to make things more equal. Because I'm a recipient of of that money. What I what I, you know, you started talking about locked down and what they see what I think I think the Department tried their best in that lockdown early on particularly, to make things as easy as possible for us. But what they what, we got a holistic view? No, there's never been a holistic view. They'll admit that, you know, you'll have the deputy secretary say that the you know, there are other pressures. And, and it's the same, same thing. I mean, they're always sending sending all this other material out that has to be done by a certain time. And, you know, don't you know, it's legislated, you know, you'll you'll, you'll burn in hell, if you don't do this by the 31st of March or something. So, you know, there's, there's all this stuff that's going on around us. And then they'll say, and don't forget to be the educational leader in your school, because that's really important, too. So, no, they don't have a holistic view, there are a bunch of towers or silos, who, who sort themselves out in their own area. And then when when everything's signed off, or everyone's done their annual report, or everyone's done their AIP, or whatever, then they're happy. All that silo's happy. 

Loretta  21:25  

You know, what comes to mind for me. And I think I've never been able to move beyond this. But when we went into lockdown that first time, and we had a week to transition to remote learning. And then within within a very short period of time we were seeing on TV these kids with laptops, engaging with their teachers, and they've all got internet. They didn't show my school on TV, where we had to give out 350 computers and didn't have enough or we didn't have internet for them. And I don't think they showed your school on TV.

Phillip  22:09  

No, I think my school got one run there as a reporter stood out the front of our school sign had her back. And I don't know what that was about. And no one not that she was on the footpath. She didn't have to get permission. You're right, Loretta, I took an approach to that, at the at the beginning was okay, let's get this done. But let's not panic, and let's not, you know, get too worried about it. This will this is all new, this is new to everyone. And and we eventually, you know, not eventually we quickly got our got our devices out and, and so on. But of course, you know, until those dongles, I've never I didn't even know what a dongle was until until lock down until they came, you know, we had parents with no internet. I remember talking to a boy and I said, where are you? And he said, I'm sitting on the washing machine. And I said, What, why? And he said, Well, every other space in the house is full. Because his brothers were all in lockdown from secondary school. And so and then, of course, you know, just as far as I know, it's no one's fault, and I'm not, but we lost them, then we then we'd lost a whole group of kids who wouldn't answer their phone wouldn't at one point when we could we they wouldn't answer their doors. And we completely lost them. And teachers couldn't get in touch and we're making phone calls. But then eventually, when when the lockdown ended, those kids just came back, they were just all of a sudden magically reappeared. So yeah, it was tough. It was very tough.

Loretta  23:47  

Yeah. It was really was. If you were to become the Minister for Education, if you all of a sudden got Minister Merlino's job, what's the first thing you do?

Phillip  24:01  

Alright, assuming that I've got a budget that that I can just have. So you're not 

Loretta  24:06  

Well think there's a pretty good one. 

Phillip  24:08  

So I think I'd be paying the teachers a bit more. And the and the principals for that matter, but I'm not... I'm not very.... I don't think the teachers did well out of that last agreement at all. And I don't know where it all came from. My teachers certainly weren't walking around looking for less contact time or whatever. They actually wanted to pay rise, and at least one that kept up with inflation and cost of living because it's a little bit unfortunate if the minister so if I was the minister and I was getting on TV, or or wherever and saying that you know, how wonderful my teachers were. And, and they've done this amazing job and they are vital to society. And then that's all well and good. And then and then we stall an agreement process for months and months and months. And then they get 1% 1% 1%. And, and a couple of other things that they didn't even ask for. So, so if I was minister, I'd fix that up for a start. I'm not a good for you, I'm not entirely against the approach, you know, the FISO. And, and FISO 2, which I was, I was very pleased to see that learning, teaching and learning has actually been given equal status with welfare and well being. You know, that's been, that's been the way it is here for ever. So, so. So I don't know that, I'm not that critical of of that side of the, of what they're doing. But I do think we've got some incredible staffing issues coming or we've got to now, there's no question, we've got them now. And that needs to be addressed and dealt with and not denied. You know, I don't think we've got enough people going into the principal class. You know, I'll be going out of it in the next couple of years. And so it's not my problem, but but it makes me a bit unhappy to see how many vacancies there are. And I'm not sure if they're being filled, or there seems to be a lot of acting principals around at the moment. I don't know. It just feels at the moment, it feels like a bit of a mess. We can't replace staff, I just had a resignation just this week. You know, an 11 year teacher who has decided that he wants to do something else. And it's not teaching. It's not it's not like he wants to go somewhere else just doesn't want to teach anymore. So that's what's happening. And we've got to do something about it. So I haven't got a plan for that Loretta, though, I have to say, but if I was minister, I'd quickly develop one.

Loretta  27:09  

How do you maintain work life balance?

Phillip  27:11  

Well, who says I do? 

Loretta  27:14  

Oh, you look pretty good. 

Phillip  27:17  

Yeah, look, I'm, I'm reasonably good. Not totally, but I'm reasonably good at taking my own advice, because one of the things about working in any school I guess, but certainly in in this school, we see some things that that you don't want to, you don't want to see as as adults, even you don't want to see, sometimes we're not sure, if kids are being fed. You know, from a Friday night, when they go home to a Monday morning, when we give them breakfast. Again, we don't know they might they probably they are probably but we don't know what they're going home to let alone school holidays. And then there's other issues that are going on a lot of alcohol abuse, drug abuse, and so on. So what I've said to my staff is that it's hard and all this is can be at the end of the day, you need to say to yourself, I did everything I could today to make my kid's life better. I'm gonna get in the car, and I'm gonna go home to my own family. And, and be be with them. And I'm not going to worry about this until tomorrow morning, when I get back here. And then then I'll give them permission to worry about it again. But that's easy to say, Loretta, it's not always easy to do.

Loretta  28:39  

True, true. What I'm sort of wondering then, given the large number of less experienced people who are picking up principal jobs, what sort of advice would you give them, because many of them are actually quite young. So they could have 30 years ahead of them as principals. So what advice would you give them in terms of how they're going to survive the next 30 years?

Phillip  29:08  

Okay, so and I'm giving this advice, because I've heard stories, I have friends who are teachers and, and tell me stories about different things. I think, I think a principal does not need to make his or her mark, in the first five minutes, and you need to listen to what's going on. You need to talk to people, and you need to get a really good feel for your school community. That's a huge thing. Getting a feel for your school community because you sort of know what you should and we've had a lot of stuff to send out to our communities over the last couple of years. And you know, I need to I need to break that down sometimes to make sure that it's really clearly understood by everyone I'm sending it to. It's a lonely job. It's going to be a lonely job. You need colleagues to talk to and you And you really do need to make the time to go and have a breakfast or, or whatever, with a colleague or colleagues and and just do it. And don't, don't consider that a waste of time. Because it's such a lonely job. However, you also need to be on good terms, I think with the people you work with. Now, sure, you're the boss. And in the end, you might have to make a call that they won't like, but it's a very lonely day, if everyone, everyone's against you, or you're not, because you know, you were too stubborn to listen to someone or, or whatever. So just just take a breath, it's a long haul. And I've been doing it a long time. And, and you just don't need to do everything at once. And sometimes you need to interpret the department's requirements to suit your own environment. I'll just leave it at that.

Loretta  31:06  

I think that is actually very, very good advice, because principals are bombarded with a whole lot of technical technical work. And if you look at the bottom line, it needs to be done by five o'clock tonight. So that is very, very good advice. So really know your own environment, know what you need to do and prioritize. So essentially, that's what you're saying.

Phillip  31:30  

Pretty much. Pretty much.

Loretta  31:32  

Phillip, thank you very, very much. I, I've known you for a pretty long, long time. Yes. Look, and we've had a lot in common too as principals in similar schools. So we've shared a lot of the horror stories and, and you know, what I've enjoyed the most that we could actually laugh about it. That doesn't mean that it's not been serious, it just means that we can see the funny side of it. And if you can lighten the mood, it makes a big difference.

Phillip  32:06  

Absolutely. And you know, if ever we sit down to have our coffee, or a breakfast or whatever, and we can't find something to laugh about, even if it's each other, you know, but if we can't find something to laugh about, then it's a sad, it's a sad state of affairs. But we're going to miss you, Loretta, not not in the job. So I'm glad you're still involved.

Loretta  32:30  

Well, I have learned so much. In my last number of months that I've been talking to all different sorts of people from all different areas of the department it's actually been quite enlightening. And you know, I've learned so much that I'm sort of sorry that I'm hearing it now. I should have heard this 20 years ago, and I think I probably would have been a better principal. But anyway, that's how it pans out. Phillip, thanks very much. Wishing you all the best. Keep up the great work. And I know I know your kids do absolutely love coming to school. And that says a lot for you as the leader and the people that you recruit and have in your school.

Phillip  33:15  

Thanks, Loretta. I really enjoyed it.

Loretta  33:19  

Thanks for listening to this latest episode of talking out of school, where we cover topics and dilemmas associated with the ups and downs and even the downright curious of the school leaders job. Want to know more? Then visit me at shaping leaders.com.au But for now, here's to staying ahead of the game.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai