The principal, no bullshit and the importance of knowing your alphabet.

Retired principal, Deborah Patterson, calls it like it is. If her recently published book 'Passion, guts & leadership: an A-Z for the unconventional educational leader' is anything to go by, she can teach us a great deal, not just about the school principal's job, but about life in general.

Transcript

Loretta  0:03  

You're listening to Loretta Piazza experienced school principal, mentor and coach. And together were talking out of school. You will hear from leaders who have lived and breathed so many experiences good and bad, agonized over decisions, and of tossed and turned through countless sleepless nights. These are the people who will help you stay ahead of the game. 

The aim of the talking out of school podcasts is predominantly to help principals and aspirants deal with the ups and downs of the job. When I released my first episode in January 2022, I had absolutely no idea where it would take me. I'm forever grateful to my colleagues who went along with my wild ideas and persevered with the many failed attempts to produce quality interviews. Since that first series, I have greatly improved my technical skills. But unfortunately, I still don't have control over my dog's barking that you will hear in the background from time to time. During that first series on coaching and mentoring, I interviewed Deborah Patterson, and I was surprised to learn that she was writing a book. 12 months on and that book is completed, published and sitting on bookshelves. Deborah has been a loyal friend and colleague for more than 30 years. I've traveled the highs and lows with her. And she's been by my side when I needed her. When she asked me to read her book draft, it literally blew me away. Her personal stories and insights about best practice are truly brilliant. When I interviewed Professor John Hattie some months ago, he said to me that more principals should be documenting their lived experiences. This is exactly what retired principal Deborah Patterson has done in passion, guts and leadership, and A to Z for the unconventional educational leader. Hello, Deborah, welcome to talking out of school.

Deborah  2:14  

Hello Loretta.

Loretta  2:15  

I've got to say a really big thank you to you, Deb, because you were the very, very, very first person that I interviewed when I started these podcasts. And right at the very, very end of our conversation, you just happened to say, Oh, I'm writing a book. Well, you've actually written that book. And you've had it published. Deb what achievement. What's it called?

Deborah  2:46  

Thank you, Loretta. It's called Passion, guts and leadership, and A to Z for the unconventional educational leader. And it's been two years in the making. And I'm just so blown away. I was so I'm excited. And it's finally hit the hit the print. And it's out on booktopia. And Amazon as well through Amber's Press.

Loretta  3:10  

I've have been blown away by your stories. And the one that hit me first off was you were shy as a child, I find that very hard to believe.

Deborah  3:23  

 No, everybody would would look at me would think I'm ADHD, extroverted, a loud mouth, outgoing, full of life. But that's the that's the very public persona that that we as principals and teachers put on, and it was part of me, but at the same time, I did start off from a very shy child. And it was during my school years and having to stand up and read out loud and do those sorts of things. I didn't like being in the public eye or being the center of attention. I was a bit of a class clown. But I particularly love my own personal space. And that carried through even to to when I was a principal.

Loretta  4:10  

Do you consider yourself to be an unconventional leader? 

Deborah  4:14  

Totally. I did not fit the mould at all for what you would call a leader. And I had to learn the hard way as you go up the ladder that you have to learn to play the game and I hated being told you have to play the game Deborah. But you know what, why can't we be unique, be accepted for who we are? And you only get to enjoy that acceptance that level of acceptance when you actually get the position. But people don't want to give you that to be the head of the school in charge of so many millions of dollars, so many responsibility of students, parents and staff. Just Someone who is humorous, fun, loves can have a certain level of energy is very passionate, because to them, it's very risky. So I did have to learn to play the game. I had to learn to go laterally and get the qualifications that were necessary to, two degrees, a double degree, every qualification imaginable, because on paper, they would say, Oh, look at this candidate, she looks really good. But it's not necessarily what you have on paper. It's the essence of the person. It's it's the values, it's their integrity, listen to what they've got to say, you don't always go for qualifications, but it's the essence of the person. And do we want that person in front of that class, those students, that staff or that school community? 

Loretta  6:01  

You've had a lot to do with the central office of the education department over the years.  Do you reckon that you really held back from telling them what you think?

Deborah  6:14  

You know, you know, me, Loretta, I never held back. It was important that when you do speak up and you are very strong about something, you need to make sure that your own backyard's in perfect is in good condition. I had to, I've been a principal in a small, medium, large school. And before you can get up and verbalize and criticize someone else, to have a look at yourself, have a look at your own school. And if then you think that you're doing a really good job, and you're living the values you're adhering to, the processes, and the procedures and what the, the direction of the school, I found it very important at times to then I need to speak up for others. Because the more experience you become as a principal, you become more you're less likely to, to sit there and take it. It's important that we we are the role models to to and the voices of the unspoken in the audience to speak up and expect rules and regulations that have been imposed on us that are simply just not right. And so as my my career became lengthier I did speak up. And I spoke up on many times. But many people would look at me and say, You know what, Deborah knows what she's talking about.

Loretta  7:45  

I have some very, very fond memories of our Whittlesea network meetings. They got a bit fiery at times.

Deborah  7:53  

Well, you're also a very outspoken person. And you know what, we held those in higher responsibility positions accountable. It's important accountability is been held against us as principals and educate the leaders of school. But it's also important that we hold them accountable. And yes, at the Whittlesea school network, we didn't beat around the bush, we would have, we would have segments on our agenda. What's hot, let's spill our guts out and about, we didn't beat around the bush, we haven't got time to muck around in our profession. Let's go straight to the point. Find the facts and deal with those.

Loretta  8:36  

And if I recall right, you were the one that initiated 'what's hot'.

Deborah  8:40  

Yes, yes, I did that. I did that because people we didn't we saw the agenda that came from the region. But there were a lot of issues, very technical, operational issues. But there were things that are affecting and impacting on us as leaders that needed to be spoken to foods, but what type get those issues out of the way, and then we'll deal with the other issues. And I do that similar approach in my mentoring and coaching. Let's get the hot issues out of the way first, before we can move on to the other issues.

Loretta  9:16  

Now, Deb, you grew up in Fitzroy, in the housing commission flats. I think today they call that social housing. How was that?

Deborah  9:27  

Loretta, it was a complete cultural shock. It was something that we applied to the housing commission for a house but they said no, you have to go into a high rise flat before we can allocate you a house. And they only said it would be maybe six to 12 months. Three years later, we're still there. And the impact on living in that, such a social close knit and very culturally diverse area within Fitzroy completely polarized my family and to this day, we're all sort of carrying the the impact of living in those flats. We love the view; perfect, beautiful, magnificent view. But we saw several suicides, almost monthly; drunkenness, assaults, homelessness, and various rapes. We had to be very careful where we went at night, and yeah, there were some there were really very troublesome times.

Loretta  10:33  

You actually witnessed a suicide?

Deborah  10:37  

Yes. Mum sent me to the shop on a Sunday. And I'm coming back skipping, you know, lalala you know, all of a sudden I turned around, and I saw this black figure, black clothing sort of figure scream, almighty scream, I just quickly dropped that dropped the bottle. that I raced in, got up the lift went back upstairs. And mum said, what's the matter? And I said, mum, somebody's just jumped. And we later found out that it was actually a nun had jumped off the 16th floor. 

Loretta  11:17  

You know, Deb, I'm going to fast forward to 2014 when our colleague Mark Thompson took his own life. Did that bring back any memories for you for when you're living there?

Deborah  11:33  

Several, several Loretta. I can always remember why did why did that nun jump? What was so bad in her life that she, that she felt that she had to do that and considering she was a nun, I thought that she would be able to, you know, her religion or faith would be able to get her through. So when we lost our colleague, it yeah, it was, again, the same feelings. What got you into that position? Did he feel so far so deep and so far down that the black hole that he was not able to bring himself out? And as his colleagues, you know, where was I? Could I have helped him? We look back the weeks before, and the the events that led up to it, and losing a colleague, and there are several principals who have actually taken their own life. I talked about another principlal in my book, a lovely man, he went in and tidied up his office the day before, on the Sunday before, did all his work, and then goes down to Williamstown beach and, and takes his own life. And it's that constant, wondering what I could have done for them, or what brought them to that position in their lives?

Loretta  12:58  

The fact that they are so, as in the case of this other colleague that you talk about, the fact that they're so meticulous in their thinking, and he went into school, and he sorted out his office and everything to then the following day. It has to be planned. 

Deborah  13:23  

Yes, definitely. Well, you know, how meticulous we are as principals. We don't like others to, to clean up our mess. But losing Mark in 2014,  you never stopp thinking about that. Never.

Loretta  13:45  

No, no. Which then takes me to you as loving quotes. What's your favorite quote?

Deborah  13:56  

Oh, keep it simple. Get over it and move on. Live every day, you only die once. As, as, as I know, through my breast cancer and stroke. It's it's those things. It's the self talk that you you need to get you through the days. You know, keep it simple. And I try in my mentoring and coaching to sort of push some of those quotes over to the teachers, the principals and teachers that I I work with.

Loretta  14:32  

Now, humor and laughter is what actually helps us survive. And if I didn't laugh the way I did, and laugh inappropriately, I must say, I don't think I would have survived the job for all those years. So tell me. I want to hear your famous funny story such as the Hong Kong delegate when you were in Darwin with the YMCA. What did you do to that poor man?

Deborah  15:04  

It was called for the mouth, it was the most, honestly, I'm so glad that the lighting was very dim in that cocktail lounge, when we all came down. And we were sitting in the cocktail lounge. And I'm sitting next to this deligate, Joshua from Hong Kong. And we're having a chat, or we found out that we're both principals. So it's particularly talked about, he'd love to bring some principals over here. And I said yes, here is my card I will tee up a meeting and organize a connection. And as I was talking with him, he was eating these nuts. And he was putting them into his mouth. And I'm looking at him and this these shells, the the nuts, shells on his chin. And I've got a big rule with my assistant principals, if there's anything in my teeth, my nose hanging out anywhere, you've got to tell me. So I'm sitting there thinking, Well, I've only just met him. Will I tell him and then after a while, it's still there. So I said to him, you know, Joshua, you've, you've got something on your chin. And he said, Oh, and he's fluffing it away with his hands, and it's not coming off. And I said, here, I'll do it for you. And as I'm trying to pull it, I noticed his face as his head's moving with me pulling it and then the penny dropped. They're not nutshell casing, the hairs from his mole in his chin.  I died, died, died died. 

Loretta  16:41  

And did you ever live this down? 

Deborah  16:44  

I told the other delegates what I had done. And every time that he was talking to me, I could see all their eyes were looking at the mole on his chin. And yeah, oh, sort of an in joke. So to this day, that's one of the probably the most embarrassing situations I've ever been in. But humor has been important for us, especially with some of the difficult parents. I had a parent that came in, and I had to talk to him about his child's social skills. She was in grade five, and she was not getting on with other girls. And he sat there and he listened to me. And then he proceeded to tell me, you know, I've just got out of jail.  Oh, have you? And he said, Yes, I've spent 14 years in jail for murder. And I I could see his eyes darting sort of quickly to the side. And I thought, What's he going to pull out of his pocket? Or from underneath his jumper? And I realized that I'm actually dealing with someone who's a little bit mentally probably not quite there. And I said to him, Well, I had better be nice to youhadn't I? . So he sort of had thought, am I going to take her seriously? Another father wanted to rearrange my face because of what had happened with his son. And I said, Well, can I put my lippy on first, and then do my hair? So you humor has to humor for me is a way of defusing very difficult situations. And smiling and being happy, doesn't cost much. A smile makes a child's day. It can make someone stay by you just simply smiling, having a nice friendly, hello, having a little banter with them, and making their day more enjoyable. So I'm a real big one on humor.

Loretta  18:45  

And I suppose with the humor, that doesn't matter if the other person doesn't get it, the fact that you're able to use the humor makes us feel better?

Deborah  18:55  

Yes, totally.

Loretta  18:57  

Tell us about the architect who drank too much wine and garlic.

Deborah  19:03  

I am about a month in the new position and this new building investing in our schools program. Anyway, the architect comes out and he's walking around. And I look at the building and I could see a bow in the one of the southern walls. And I said to him, can you see that bow? And he said, No, don't worry, and Deborah, you look pretty today. Don't worry your little head over that. Anyway, luckily I had my groundsman there. And I said to him, are you happy with that? And he just nodded. And I said, Well, I'm not happy with that. And you know what, until that's that, get an engineer out here to assist wit that wall. I'm not paying the next progress payment. And he said, but we need that money. The builder needs the money. I said, Well, I'm not paying until that is corrected. And do you know I didn't pay that payment, and the following month they went bankrupt. But talk about it. I kept some money in contingency I complained to the VA, the housing department. And luckily, we got a new builder in to rectify that bow. I noticed as he was talking, I got a whiff, a whiff of garlic.  I thought, gee, that smells of red wine and garlic. And I said to him, Look, we're going to actually finish this meeting because, and he looked at me quite surprised. And I said, Yes, we're going to finish this meeting right now, because I don't know where you've been. But you've had too much red wine. I can smell garlic on your breath. And this meeting is finished.

Loretta  20:46  

He's obviously been for lunch at a at an Italian restaurant, and had too much can chianti and spaghetti bolegnese.  Alright, how often did you have to talk to your staff about extramarital affairs, and no hookups? 

Deborah  21:05  

Well, as with every, you know, we meet our love or the love of our lives, at various meetings and  various places, but we think, you know, the nightclubs, the hotels, or whatever. But school is a common place for for people to hook up together, and you get a lot of single couples that meet up and quite happily go through life. But then there are times where you can see all this.  I don't know this relationship, it looks a bit suspicious, they're going off into their own rooms, or I've caught couples in cupboards. I've caught couples in the gym, in the gym room. The worst place that I caught a couple was in the boiler room. I thought, What are you doing? What are you doing in the boiler room?

Loretta  21:52  

With clothes on?

Deborah  21:54  

Well, partially. And

Loretta  22:00  

well, that was a pretty good indication as to what they were doing...

Deborah  22:04  

Luckily, it doesn't happen so much nowadays, they're so busy that they don't really have time to do all of that. But yes, you have to hold people accountable. I mean, I'm not the you know, I'm not saying I'm a martyr. But it is important that we live the values, if you're going to do something like that, do it off site. And you need to look at your own personal purpose, values and mission and behaviors. Because it's obviously impacting on you as a staff member. And you know, what if I know everybody else knows, and it really does make a difference, to staff morale.

Loretta  22:45  

You've made no secret of your breast cancer, and cancer of the thyroid and your stroke. Tell us a bit about that and what you went through. What you were feeling at the time.

Deborah  23:02  

 These are two very significant events in my life. And they've changed the course of my history. Sometimes you look at things that have happened in your life as as bad and you know, detrimental to you, but they were forks in my road. Getting the breast cancer five years after I got my first principal position was a real shock. Because I was so fit, I was healthy. I was loving what I was doing. But I simply wasn't listening to my body. But the school community at Templestowe Valley were magnificent and rallied around me and I had a lot of friends, colleagues and school community.  But when I was at Mill Park Heights Primary School was again another shock because I didn't even know I was having the the stroke. It was only that I was on the PA making an announcement for children. And lo and behold, I couldn't pronounce the, their, their names. So with the breast cancer, I took eight weeks off  but I continued with chemotherapy for six months going taking Thursdays off back at school Friday and bingo. But I learned a lesson that it didn't enable me enough time psychologically and mentally and physically to get over the breast cancer. So when the stroke happened, I thought no, I'm not going to go back to school. I'm going to take time to recoup because I'm a little bit older now, 62, I need to take time. So I went laterally. I walked. We have a cabin up in Echuca and I walked the Murrary and I meditated. I cried for six months. So I learned what it was like to the need to go back and listen to your body. And I got a very good psychologist. And she helped me, I had to admit that I needed help. And beginning to write this book was very therapeutic. So I then having those times I re-assesed my life, I gave myself permission to cry, take time off, go laterally, walk, meditate, and then get back into deciding what you want and what I wanted to do for the rest of my life, which was finish up as a principal, write a book. I'm now mentoring and coaching future aspiring principals, and I'm loving it.

Loretta  25:40  

Yeah, I'm actually thinking about that transition. You had the stroke, you took sick leave Did you think and plan to return to work? Or did you know that was the end of your job had passed by?

Deborah  25:58  

 I knew it was the end of my job as a principal, Loretta, because when you're in the stroke unit, and you're looking at the impact, I had a mild stroke. And the doctor said, well, that Deborah, that's the small one before the big one. So I saw what stroke does to people. And I'm watching my grandchildren and children come into the hospital. And I see their faces. And I thought, no, I've done 46 years in education. I've done everything I've wanted to do. I've loved what, but I don't want to die on the job. And so I tried to relinquish my job. But HR departments said no;  Deborah's, you know, got one of the biggest schools.  Get her back, she's an experienced prin. And there's such a shortage of principals, they wanted me back. But I didn't want to go back, I didn't want to go back to a pressure cooker environment. And if I didn't know I was having a stroke, I don't want to be put in that situation again.

Loretta  26:59  

Psychologically, though, what was going on in your head, as you were transitioning away from the job? I mean, I know you had your health to think about, you know, I'm thinking about how, at times I have actually struggled a little bit. I knew that I needed to wind down. You either do those 50 to 60 hours a week, or none at all, you know, none of this in between stuff where you can transition to retirement. So just to stop like that. For me, it wasn't easy. And I'm sort of wondering how people, such as yourself, cope with that, that final journey to retirement?

Deborah  27:50  

Having that time away, and to, you know, on sick leave, and to just look after yourself, and be kind to yourself, and take time, I was becoming quite comfortable with myself and I was being in tune with my feelings. And I was feeling relatively comfortable. I felt cheated a little bit that my career had been taken away, because I still had three years. And I found that while I was off, finally, I started to read a lot of the the books that I've had on my bookshelf. And I've got some great, great authors I have been reading. So I read a lot of these books. And then I realized, you know, I still got more to give back. I'm going to create a website, get in contact with the Victorian Academy of Teaching and Leadership, do the mentoring and coaching training. I'm now a VAPA- Victorian aspiring principal assessor, I want to give back to our profession and help others and maybe guide them for to, to not some of the give them the tool tips and strategies that maybe will not impact on the lives as much as what it did align. Yeah.

Loretta  29:16  

Before we actually, you know, sum that bit up. What I'm wondering if you were to give some advice to to principals who are possibly on that cusp of moving to this new, you know, shiny, bright part of their life, that's called retirement. What would you tell them are the key things they need to be looking at and working through for themselves?

Deborah  29:45  

That's just like what one of my mentors asked the other day before you make that decision? Look, 18 months ahead, two years, 18 months ahead. Before that you you think that you will retire you need to get all your finances in place, you need to, you know, have you got enough super to live? Will you need an aged care pension? Do you have any debts? So seek financial advice there. And then talk to others. I mean, have started having conversations with people, why did you retire? What did you do before you retired? I spoke to my superannuation consultant, I spoke to our accountant, I was able to then work out, you know, what I could actually survive financially, and then my husband retired as well. So between the two of us, you just seek advice, listen a lot to your friends who have retired, because each context is different. And then psychologically prepare yourself. And in to in being a principal, it's important to look at your succession planning within your school, you need to think about well, who's going to take over? Unfortunately, the stroke impacted on my two assistant principals who had to go into acting positions. So it, you know, my school was left in limbo for at least a year, which was unfortunate, thank goodness, it was a well run school. But it's important that I tidy that up to then be able to move into my retirement phase.

Loretta  31:29  

Okay, getting back to your book, if I mean, we know the title, you know, the A to Z for the unconventional educational leader. Can you just sum it up in you know, in a sentence or two? Why people need to be reading your book?

Deborah  31:51  

Because it's a no nonsense, no fluff, no bullshit, read all book about the tools, tips and strategies that you need. And that can help you in your journey, as a teacher, educator leader, or just anyone in life.

Loretta  32:14  

You know, I was actually really impressed. You know, with some of the strategies and the tips. And when I read them, I thought, gee, that's good. That is, it's damn good, no nonsense, very, very sensible. So I applaud you on this great achievement; it's a personal achievement for you. And now that you are retired, because you're doing a lot of work, but you've moved away from the principalship. But I just want to share something very, very quickly with you and our listeners. A little while ago, I interviewed John Hattie. And after we'd finished recording, we got chatting about different things. And he mentioned that many times, he would present at conferences, to up to 1000 or more principals, and he said he'd be up on stage. And he'd be looking at the faces of all these principals who were looking back at him. And he said to himself, you're looking at me, and I'm supposed to be the one giving you all this information. He said, but every single one of you has years and years of experience, and therefore wonderful stories to tell. You need to be putting all of this into a book. And Deborah, this is exactly what you've done. You've done what John Hattie said that every principal should be doing. So congratulations, I wish you all the best. And may this be the beginning of you know, of a of a path and a journey that gives you enormous fulfillment, because you've given so much to the education department and to kids and staff and to parents. Good on you Deb. 

Deborah  34:01  

Well thank, Loretta. As you know, I MC'd the VPA conference the other day, the other last month, and you're so right. I love being up on stage, sharing my stories with others, delivering those story lines, and I'm just so wrapped that I've now got another passion of public speaking and MC'ing conferences, being a guest speaker and sharing my tips. And thank you Loretta for always being there and being one of my biggest supporters. And I do hope that everybody goes out, buys the book, passion, guts and leadership the A to Z for the unconventional educational leader, and give it as this year's Christmas present. Thank you.

Loretta  34:45  

Thanks for listening to this latest episode of talking out of school, where we cover topics and dilemmas associated with the ups and downs and even the downright curious of the school leaders job. Want to know more? Then visit me at shaping leaders.com.au  But for now here's to staying ahead of the game.