Schools, principals and transforming the teaching of reading Part 2.

I call Diane Snowball the reading guru.  With more than fifty years experience under her belt, which includes a lengthy consulting stint in New York, her knowledge about how children learn to read is outstanding. In this second episode, Di talks about the importance of building world knowledge, scaffolding learning and the philosophy behind flexible small group teaching. Di urges teachers to steer clear of reading programs; it's understanding how learning takes place and what it looks like in reading that makes all the difference.

Transcript

Loretta  0:00  

You're listening to Loretta Piazza experienced school principal, mentor, and coach. And together we're talking out at school. You will hear from leaders who have lived and breathed so many experiences good and bad, agonized over decisions, and have tossed and turned through countless sleepless nights. These are the people who will help you stay ahead of the game. 

Today's episode is part two with Diane snowball, and we talk about reading, but far more broadly, in relation to how learning actually happens. What's the principal's role throughout the learning process? Being the keeper of the monies is certainly an important job. But as Diane will tell you, there's much more at stake here. 

I'd love us now to now actually talk about what does a good and effective reading lesson look like. So just say, a grade three or a grade two?

Diane  1:07  

Okay, well, regardless of the grade, there are some basic things that we need to do every day. And some things we need to do several times a week. So if I'm just focusing on reading, I know that one of the things I have to do is read aloud to the kids, and for a whole range of purposes. And in fact, it is so important, we should have a yearly plan. So that we really make sure we're introducing different authors, different genres, different topics, series that we might introduce the kids to that we want them to read or the studies and a whole range of interests, particularly then material that's got very rich vocabulary as much as I can. And I'm not just going to do that once a day, that might be a very important part of my reading session. But any other time of the day, too, I should be reading aloud. And of course, if it's younger kids might get to read two or three picture books or a picture book and, and definitely a nonfiction piece of some kind, even if it's only a chapter. And I'm going to do the same regardless of the grade level. Of course, with older grades, I might be serial reading a novel. And that will go over a period of time. But I would also read each day some kind of nonfiction to them, I want to do is always read the nonfiction because I need to build up their world knowledge, because that influences how you understand anything you're reading. And I want to do that with that's a range of topics. And it might be happening during my science session or some other time of the day. But I know that sometime in the day, I've got to read some nonfiction. I did that, by the way with a school in New York where all the kids were from the shelter for the homeless that was nearby, and the local housing project. And I asked those teachers to read some nonfiction to their kids every day. And within one year, they became the most improved school in all of New York State.

Loretta  3:17  

What just from reading nonfiction? 

Diane  3:19  

Exactly, yep. 

Loretta  3:21  

And for how long? 15 minutes?

Diane  3:23  

More than that, you know, sometimes it was a, as I say, a chapter out of a nonfiction book, or it might have been a newspaper article, or something from a magazine, you know, whatever, that was really going to build their knowledge beyond just their normal neighborhood.

Loretta  3:41  

But what was it exactly though, from reading nonfiction, that made them the most improved?

Diane  3:47  

Their building of world knowledge because when they have a similar sort of test and understanding, you know, what, what sort of assessment do they use to know that? Well, you know, in every state of America, they have their tests, just like we have NAPLAN. And although they're not necessarily very good tests of reading, in every way, that they allow that comparison to be made. So, of course, in those tests, the kids are suddenly expected to be perhaps, but reading about visit to an art gallery, or something about the ocean, or whatever. And we would find that most of these kids, for example, that never been to the ocean, you know, couldn't imagine but it was even like, let alone understand reading about it. Never been to an art gallery. So the more that we read a variety of topics to them, the more we built up their world knowledge, so that whatever they read, and even in fiction, you know, to get those pictures in your head while you're reading. You got to have some knowledge about where this is taking place and when, et cetera. So history becomes very important. So that's that's what it was. And of course, the wide range of vocabulary. Read that they that we're hearing, and hearing many times over. So it just built up so much knowledge about the world for them and about vocabulary and the way language structures work, etc. And that's different for fiction and nonfiction most fiction is written in past tense, most nonfiction is written in present tense, a lot of these kids English was not their first language. So even hearing, the way nonfiction was read was quite a great experience for them. So all of those factors made a difference. And you know, I think that doing that also built up the kids interest in reading, it wasn't the only thing they did, you know, there was independent reading taking place every day. But they were able to do that better because of what they were being read. Yeah, so it's not a hard thing to do, you know, to say, read some nonfiction everyday to your kids, it was very doable. I will also do what is referred to as shared reading. And that means it's an enlarged text of some kind, it could be on a electronic whiteboard, it might be in a big book, where all of the children can see the text and can join in with the reading. So it's a shared reading community. And there's a whole lot of things that you do with that, depending on what age group you're teaching. So for example, in, you know, first year at school, I'm going to be teaching the kids a lot about even just that, when I read, there's a one to one match with what I say, and what the print is on the page. So when I use that big book, we're pointing to the words as we read. And one of the things that we know is that when kids come to school who can already read, and there are some of them. The books that have been read through by their parents are things like The Very Hungry Caterpillar, the brain shape. What else who sent the boat, the Gruffalo. Most of them foxes books. Pat Hutchins, Pamela Allen, Eric Carle, now, why can they read because first of all, they started joining in with the reading. And through that, they learned a lot about what reading is started to recognize high frequency words, started to make that one to one match. And you know, you can't start to sound out a word, unless you actually know that there's a space between words, you know, these these little black marks, or one word and the next little set of black marks or in other words, you know, it starts right from that. And so, what I've done in several foundation classrooms, is make sure the teachers have those sorts of books to read aloud to their kids over and over, just like in a home, the children want them 100 times they drive their parents nuts, right? Yes, yes. So then if we have a few copies of those books that children can, and I know at the beginning, that's just from memory, they can read those books, but they're turning the pages at the right place, they're actually starting to point to words. And these things are a precursor to what we're going to be teaching them about how to actually figure out how to read a specific word. And also, this self esteem is incredible. I am a reader. And that's the kids who are being read to all the time before they start school have an advantage, I want to make sure all the kids have got that. So that's one type of independent reading the children in my my first year at school can do. But I also we do language experience work of making our own books from what we say, can be written down and what can be written down can be read, and their their words, their language structure, we make them into books, with them doing the pictures, because that's comprehension. And they are able to read those, and they really are able to quite independently read those. So they're important. And also, we're starting to build up with the kids. Because of that work. We're starting to learn high frequency words that are going to be 50% of everything that they read, and hang lots of other words together. We're also going to be teaching them how to work out a word by using onset rhymes. And by using the combination of when I see this letter or this group of letters, what sound would I expect to be there? By no, that doesn't work by itself, and none of these things work alone. So we have to be talking about you know, if the word was let's say the sentences up I can read this book, or it was I have read this book, every ad is exactly the same in both of those sentences, but we pronounced them differently. So how am I going to work out whether to say read or read? I have to think about the structure of the sentence. And it's where we say to kids, what sounds right. We mean, you know, does this make sense? If I say this? And you know, will the sentence hang together properly? And if I say, the wrong one, then it doesn't make sense. It doesn't sound right. So it's not a matter of only teaching one strategy, but teaching all of them. It's interesting, too, that some people seem to poopoo the idea of using pictures in a book for kids to work out some words. But you know, I've been looking at even the Decodable books. You know, I was reading one the other day about national pet. Oh, no, it was when Pam and Nam, setting the pan. And if I didn't look at the picture, I wouldn't know that there are actually people sitting in that pan. Because it wouldn't make sense to me to think of people sitting in a pan, the author of that book decided to write I guess it's nonsense. But I need to use the picture to figure out what's going on no matter what the book. And if if we don't do that, you know, sometimes in those books, we don't even know actually who's saying what you can only tell from the picture. Because it's a book with few words in it. You've got to use every piece of information you can to know what's going on and words.

Loretta  11:38  

So there's a lot of inferring going on.

Diane  11:40  

 Oh, absolutely. Inferring is the most important strategy to teach kids right from the beginning of reading, the inference that if there's a picture of a bowl here, and the sentences, I will play with my, and I'm not sure what, no, and I can look at the beginning letter, it could be batch. But I look at the picture, and that's going to help me or perhaps I look at the last part of the word. But that may not be enough information, but the picture will support my prediction. So yes, that's an inference. Why else would the illustrated illustrate a bowl if that's not what the sentence was going to be about? And I will actually use those words with kids and tell them out loud, that's what we're doing. Smart readers use all kinds of information, to help their predictions and to work out the words that they want to say where they're reading. And they are inferring that because the author has said this, but the illustrator has drawn this, that that must be what that word is.

Loretta  12:50  

Do you use the word inferring with foundation students?

Diane  12:55  

Absolutely. It's a bit like, you know, some parents will say to their little kids are they are going on the choo choo? Well, why not call it a train, because you know, they can remember the word train just as easily as choo choo. And, you know, I'll find kids in the foundation class can actually talk about their own comprehension strategies. I'm visualizing blah, blah, blah, and I'm predicting blah, blah. And here's the evidence for my prediction. It's its richness of language about reading. And I don't need to keep any of that from them. I'm helping their vocabulary development, and they understand it, just like the train and choo choo thing then if we use it in context, then they pick up the meaning of it very easily. So but again, knowing what those main comprehension strategies are, and making sure we include them in our teaching, which I can do by demonstrating that using shared reading material, and saying quite explicitly to the kids, that's something you can do, I want you to try when you're doing your own reading. So then, of course, if I'm going to teach a lot about reading, the best way to get better at it, is practice it. So you need to have time for independent reading. And apart from that, if they don't have independent reading, how do I find out what they can do? Can they actually apply the knowledge about at words that I've been teaching them? Or can they apply the knowledge of, when I see the letter C? It could be cut and it could be an it depends on you know where it is in the word that might help me if it's at the beginning, I wouldn't expect to see CK and so on. So I can only find that out by actually sitting with them while they're reading the classes. They're all reading. And I sit down with an individual child and find out what they're doing based on what I've been teaching them. Then I only then can I form small groups, a small group won't matter whether you want to call it guided reading or a small group shared reading is based on your observations and assessment as a teacher, saying that these three or four or five kids need more help with this. So I'm going to pull them aside. And we're going to do some small group teaching, because it allows each child to be more involved and interactive than when it's the whole class. But you know, if I'm doing a good job, why would I need to have that same group for weeks? You know, and why do I even have to work with a different group tomorrow? Wouldn't it make more sense that I work with that same group for two or three days, until I feel they've got it. And then I by that stage, I'll have identified another group of kids who need help in something else. So it's a matter of really thinking through why we do these things to help children become better readers, rather than I have a fixed practice of every day I read aloud, do some shared reading, have some group work, fixed groups, you know, some classes, the kids don't get to do any independent reading. So I don't know how anyone finds out anything. But you know, that has to be a major part of the day. So and I'm, you know, my planning is on what I'm going to be teaching the children about being more effective readers. And no matter what it has to be that demonstration, doing it together, them doing independently, and me evaluating how they're going with that, so that I know who needs more help. Whether they even if they're choosing the right sort of material to read, I've got to find that out during independent reading time, I notice you're always reading something that's got too much in it for you to have to work out. So you're losing the sense of what it's about. And then it's even really hard to make use of the knowledge of phonics that you have, because you've, you've lost what it's about, you've lost the plot. So I might need to have lessons on how do you choose more suitable books for you to read, and I talk about kids being smart readers. Smart readers know how to true something that's just right for them. It's, I don't call them good readers. Because it doesn't matter whether you're reading something that might be easier than the kid next to you. You're smart, because you've chosen what's right for you. That makes sense, doesn't it?

Loretta  17:36  

What's your view on reading programs such as cafe? And, you know, those sorts of programs that some schools use? 

Diane  17:45  

Yeah, well, again, I don't think that there's enough thought going into. And, you know, cafe is what some teachers wrote about this sort of routine of their reading session. And, I mean, there are some things that they do that, you know, I've seen teachers in the United States use it and hear that, I think, well, that doesn't make sense. Like, why you're going to work with a different group tomorrow than you did today. Even that doesn't make sense to me, too. You can do that sometimes. And I want to make this point, there's no always and never. But I don't think that you need to follow somebody else's guideline like that, when you can think through, what would what, how does learning really happen? And there's no doubt about it that that demonstration of collaborative learning, independent learning is a basic fundamental aspect of learning, isn't it no matter what it is, that I need to be thinking about? How is that taking place in my classroom, and now I've got these kids, you know, in the teacher's classroom I'm working with at the moment, there are three boys who are very different to the other kids. It's interesting, they haven't been to kindergarten because of COVID lock downs. And it's fascinating how those children this year in that foundation classes, those Foundation has a different to the kids in previous years. So I even have to take all of that into account when I'm doing my planning, don't I? You know, I might need to be teaching social skills much more at the beginning of the year than following cafe. So read everything you can to get ideas. But but think then through yourself about what really makes sense and be trying it with your kids thinking about your kids. read widely, not just say, Oh, here's how one person does it, you know, because, you know, I'm talking in general terms that anyone could pick up and change in some way. rather than step one, step two, step three, and this is what you have to do. So, yeah, if you don't need a formula, you need to understand how learning takes place. And what does that mean in reading?

Loretta  20:17  

Now, the million dollar question here, what's the role of the principal in all of this?

Diane  20:23  

Well, if the principal's not involved, or for example, I don't like to work in schools, the principal's not involved with what I'm doing. So, you know, fortunately, where I'm working with this graduate teacher, the principal will support whatever it is that's needed, right down to very practical things. I've noticed that the teachers don't really have enough books that the children in those grades need to read. So the principal's the one with the cash. Sound, so we actually need some more of I'll help you and the teachers to work out what you've got what you need. But we need you to understand or so why come and have a look. Because I want you to know why. So that you understand, it's not just a matter of woke up this morning, and thought we might need such and such right, but it fits in with the school learning. As far as what I'm doing with the teacher, well, I think if the principal doesn't know what I'm doing, that principle is nuts. You know, because I for their own continued learning, they need to see what's happening and why. And be making sure that it fits in with what the school's goals are. And the school's beliefs is very important. But I think most of all, to be to see the teacher see that you are also interested in learning. Because you want the teachers to go and learning forever, then you need to as well. Now you and I have been teaching for a long time. And we both know that, just because we've been teaching for such a long time, and have read and gone to conferences, we know a lot more now than we did when we first began. And it's impossible for anyone to know at all, when they first begin, some people think they know it all. So the principal needs to continue to be a learner. And I'll tell you some of the one of the reasons why I'm noticing it's very important. All of a sudden, there's this real thrust for particular programs to be bought might be a particular spelling program or a phonics program. Well, how do you know, Principal, whether it's really spending that much of your school money on unless you know enough about the theory behind it, and the theory behind how learning takes place, and whether this really fits in with what you believe is necessary for your kids, not just because it's become the in thing to do. And you know, there might be ways to do it without spending a cent. For example, you do not need any spelling program. And I can show a school how to teach spelling with really well really thoroughly every aspect of spelling with no bought program, I can then use the money to buy the books for the children to read that we so desperately need, or the maths, equipment, etc. On the science equipment. So we have to use our money wisely. And if you're not keeping your knowledge up to date, as a principal, that's not going to happen. So well. Look, I've even been to schools where and I have to say this is definitely in the past, I've been introduced to the by the principal at an after school staff meeting. And then the principal has left the room. What message does that give the teachers don't bother to take any notice of what she's going to talk about, because I'm not going to bother. Right? So how much they're involved. And look, it's a busy life, you think you're going to do this and all of a sudden, a parent arrives at your door with a major problem that they're complaining about, you know, a serious problem has happened with a child in the school or something. And you're the one who has to deal with with everything. But, you know, as much as possible. The parent, the principal has to be there for the learning as well.

Loretta  24:30  

Now, here's a real hypothetical for you Di. You're made the Minister for Education. What's the first thing you'll do?

Diane  24:43  

Let's see. Does the minister have a say in how the money is distributed across schools fairly? Probably part of the of the been part of the political party that decides that. That would be the first thing I'd be making sure I've been close to the moment, there's very unfair distribution of funds. Very, and you know, that's not fair to the children, not fair to the children, it's their money. And, you know, it's definitely the number one thing I would deal with because it can greatly influence what schools are able to do. The second thing I would do is to make sure that every teacher gets and principal gets as much professional learning opportunities as possible. It's a long time, since we had statewide professional learning. For every teacher. Something is fundamental, even as teaching reading, it goes back a long way. There are phenomenal things taking place in Victoria through what they now call the Academy. And so some teachers are getting fabulous opportunities. But we, you know, we were able to do it in the past, we were able to provide what was called elec for the early literacy in service course, we were able to do it for the older grades, we were able to do it in literacy and in maths, and was there after school things, I know a lot of them. But if you can learn something that's really useful to you, as a teacher, a lot of teachers work after school. And they're in their rooms doing things by themselves, which is really hard work. And, you know, if we gave up some of that time, to some good professional learning that would make our teaching better, and therefore easier. That's what we need to go back to.

Loretta  26:42  

Well, we just need to look at how the regions functioned. Prior to becoming super regions, you had a lot to do with Western region. And I know that Katherine Henderson, who was the regional director of the western region at the time, speaks very highly of you, and the work that you did in improving the literacy outcomes.

Diane  27:04  

And that was totally because we provided professional learning for the entire region, in every school, and at every level, the principals had a time once a month. After three years, I worked with those principals once a month, and was all on professional learning about the teaching of literacy. And they also had times with math consultants as well, we had times for every grade level, we had times for this coaches in every school. And so it could always be very practical, and based on what you need. And according to your job, you know, the other interesting thing we did, we knew that graduates coming out into the schools. Obviously, when you're a graduate, you don't necessarily we can't know everything. So we gave them before the end of the school year, let's say it was this this year, and they're going to come teaching in schools in our region next year. Then in December, and January, we provided professional learning for all those graduates in literacy and maths to help them to know what they'll be expecting when they go into the schools in the region. You know, so it's thinking all the time about what sort of professional learning does everybody need, setting up the system for it to happen? And you know, the interesting thing is you can get change happening in schools, you know, I work with some schools that are doing phenomenal work. But how do you get systemic change? It has to be the region was an ideal way to do it, because it was even in networks and so forth. But something needs to be formally in place, that every school, every teacher, whatever they're doing, gets opportunities for professional learning.

Loretta  28:57  

But you know, I noticed back then, though, because I was involved in that learning that went on in the North. The message was very, very consistent. It seemed like it was the one message. What we're seeing today, but even through the Academy, the message is not always clear, and it's not always consistent. And if you're in the know, you can tap into the Academy and think, Oh, yep, that's, that's great. You know, I'll be involved in that professional learning. But I'm wondering how often do teachers and principals actually go into the Academy's website to see what's on offer?

Diane  29:40  

But if if you're not, I know that's that's a very important leadership role to see what professional learning is available out there. You know, even associations like the Australian literacy education association or primary education teachers association. They are running fabulous professional learning and some, a lot of them are online now. So if you can't watch now, you can watch it later. So I think the online learning that's taken up because of COVID is actually at an advantage, you don't have to leave and go. So do it, the podcasts like you're doing, you know, I do a number of podcasts for Q learning teacher fic. And they're free. You know, so teachers and principals couldn't listen to them, you know, I listen to them all, when I'm driving in the car, when I'm doing my house. You know, there's, I think the online stuff now, that's helping us with that we need to dig into and find out about perhaps what we need to do is, as the minister, I'll make sure that everybody knows about everything that's available to take advantage of it. Because you're right, if you're in the know, you'll find out. But if you're not regularly getting newsletters and emails from some of these associations, you wouldn't know about it.

Loretta  31:02  

But I think what happens, we get so caught up in our work in our day to day work. And we know, you know, we've come back after COVID. And we're still trying to, you know, tie up loose ends and new things and problems are emerging constantly. So it's easy to push all that aside, because we've got to concentrate on the here and now and just the survival. 

Diane  31:28  

It's true, except that I think you can also have responsibilities in your schools so that it's not, you know, the principal could make sure it happens, but someone else could take on responsibility for doing it. And I think that there needs to be someone in the school who's responsible for finding out about all professional learning for teachers, or, you know, someone who's specifically interested in literacy or maths or something else. So that it can be passed on to the, the principal can't do it all. Just need to sort of like that planning at the beginning of the year. You know, as a classroom teacher, I need to plan, what will my read alouds be, apart from the new books that are coming out that I don't know about yet? What will I you know, what am I going to be teaching? What's my plan for the year, and then whatever happens during the year will change based on the kids, etc. But you've got to have a big plan. So as a principal could think about what are the big areas that I need to make sure are actually taking place in this school? Number one has to be professional learning, doesn't it? I guess you might not think that you might think number one's the children's health or whatever. But there is, you know, Loretta, there are some big issues, who's going to take on responsibility for that, and keep me informed as much as I need to be, as someone I can rely on to do the job, you're always so lucky to have Angela, and April helping you with your literacy work. So you know, you were smart to do that, because you can't do it all yourself. And I do, you know, I'm, I'm also conscious of the fact that there are great resources out there that are free for schools, and I send schools on working with information about that. But someone else could be in the school could be responsible for that. And, you know, my I can turn on my iPad and fun. Oh, I've got 74 emails. But that be, because it's not from my friends. A huge number of it will be freebies that, you know, educators want to know about, you know, like kids should see, this is a free website of about 5000 video clips for kids to look at. It's one world awards, it's safe viewing for kids build up their world knowledge, wet day yesterday in schools. What will we do at lunchtime? Let's watch some of these things about, you know, how birds do this, and how whales do that, and whatever, how electricity works. And the kids are fascinated in their free building children's wealth of knowledge. So, you know, I sort of feel like I want to make a list of all of these before I die. So I could pass it on to someone in every school. As it is now I just send it to, you know, parents or teachers who I know, but look, even within the education system, having someone responsible for that, and letting all schools know. We'd save a lot of people a lot of times wouldn't look just right. So here's another job to the Minister. Sign someone that tasked

Loretta  34:53  

Well, yeah, so this has been great. Thank you. What a wonderful conversation about literacy, about reading. And going that that other perspective as well, from, you know, the notion about the principal, and that that key role that the principal has in helping pull all those threads together. Now, I'm really excited because I've asked you to speak on another topic, which is something that I'm really looking forward to over the coming month. And that is about the reading wars, synthetic phonics and the science of reading whatever it is, they're calling it. And by the time we sit down to talk about that further Di, I think there will be more from the department in terms of where we're going, and what the expectations are for schools. So I look forward to that in the in the coming month.

Diane  35:57  

Yeah, look, I just want to say one thing about that, I think we have to be very careful about, you know, it's often the so called Reading was that the the news tends to beat up. And they'll always talk about, you know, whether you teach phonics or language experience, or phonics, or balanced literacy, as though, you know, if you, you're a teacher who says, I'm a balanced literacy person, you don't teach, but it's just nonsense. It's a beat up. But I do want to make the point that I'm really interested in the children actually knowing how to use those strategies as readers and writers, I do not need a program for that. And in fact, if you look at the programs, each one of them will be different. But they'll all call themselves perhaps synthetic phonics. So I'm not sure where they're on about with with it, you know, that is one way to do it. Why isn't it always only one way. But so I stand back from that and think, Well, is it because they want to sell a program, or they actually want children to learn that specific information, and know how to apply it as a reader and a writer. And anyone who really cares about the kids must be wanting for the kids to know how to apply it. And it doesn't matter whether they're doing it your way or my way. That's what I'm most interested in. And I don't know why they have to be so beat up about programs, because schools don't have the money to spend on programs if the program is not needed. And if the teachers get good professional learning, it is not needed. And the money can be spent on things that the school does need. So I think we've always got to be very wise about that. You know, I can say read everything you can, but you have to think about who's written it, you know, how much knowledge do they have? What other knowledge do they not have? You know, and they can sure, take things out of context and pretend you've said something you haven't. And I'm saying nothing other than be careful that whatever it is that children are actually going to know how to properly apply whatever they're learning to their reading and writing.

Loretta  38:13  

Well, though, that's going to be a brilliant conversation that you and I and others are going to have very, very soon. But for now, thank you very much.

Diane  38:23  

Thank you, Loretta. You're doing a great job by providing this. It's another wonderful form of professional learning. Thank you.

Loretta  38:30  

Thanks for listening to this latest episode of talking out of school, where we cover topics and dilemmas associated with the ups and downs, and even the downright curious of the school leaders' job. Want to know more? Then visit me at shaping leaders.com.au But for now, here's to staying ahead of the game.