The education system and the class teacher who is expert at filing.....!

Experienced teacher Rob McDonald loves teaching, loves his kids, and knows his craft. But what he doesn't like are the endless administrative tasks, the never-ending collection of data and the things that take him away from what he needs to do - teaching. In this interview, Rob reflects on the job's highs, but also what is driving him to seek out a new career .....

Transcript

Loretta  0:03  

You're listening to Loretta Piazza experienced school principal, mentor and coach. And together were talking out of school. You will hear from leaders who have lived and breathed so many experiences good and bad, agonized over decisions, and of tossed and turned through countless sleepless nights. These are the people who will help you stay ahead of the game. 

In this episode, the rose colored glasses have been put in the bottom drawer of the filing cabinet, along with a pile of Department documents. While I laughed a lot with today's guest, Rob MacDonald, it would also be fair to say that I cried when I turned off the microphone. And that's because state education is losing a damn good teacher. We're hearing lots of stories, schools finding it hard to fill vacancies, successful teachers accepting positions to then turn them down a week later, because they've been offered something better. We've also heard that teachers are leaving the profession in droves. The straw that is breaking the camel's back has now snapped and experienced teacher Rob McDonald, who has worked in Melbourne's north for more than 20 years. doesn't hold back. 

Our Hello, Rob, welcome to Talking out of school.

Rob  1:26  

Thank you very much.

Loretta  1:28  

Oh, look, you've been a teacher for many years, over 20. But you weren't always a teacher.

Rob  1:35  

Prior to that I was involved in mental health nursing and decided to get out of that. And teaching was my next choice. A good choice.

Loretta  1:44  

Why Why? I mean, I know they're they're both very, you know, caring type of jobs. But why leave mental health to go into teaching? What was the draw card?

Rob  1:57  

So unfortunately, as you might have, remember, around the start of the 80s, early 90s, the governments around the world started closing down most institutions and putting many patients into the community. So for people like me, who were sort of very much institution trained, and and that was our thing, going into the community was never going to be an option for many nurses. So a lot of us chose a different career. And I had been involved with kids, along the line doing various things. So I thought, oh, maybe teaching will be the thing for me. So that's what I decided to do. So I jumped ship from mental health nursing straight into the teaching and redid my degree.

Loretta  2:37  

Well, I've got to say that I'm sure that Mental Health Nursing has been a real bonus for your work in schools.

Rob  2:46  

Without a shadow of a doubt with dealing with parents and dealing with kids. Absolutely has come to the fore many, many times.

Loretta  2:54  

Now. How many years ahead of you in teaching, would you say? And look, I'm not asking you to crystal ball gaze. But what lies ahead for you in terms of....

Rob  3:08  

Complete career change at the end of this year. I want to get out of teaching completely. Yeah, absolutely. So the end of this year, I will take long service leave. And then I doubt that I will return to teaching at all, there's nothing that would draw me back. Nothing at all.

Loretta  3:24  

So what's happened that makes you feel like this?

Rob  3:27  

well, it's the endless paperwork, the endless accountability, the endless data, the endless meetings that have just completely taken me away from what I'm meant to be doing, which is the teaching, you know, all the time that I once had to work on classroom displays, marking kids work, it's gone. Now I just spend my whole time sitting at home on the laptop entering more data, often very, totally irrelevant to what I'm actually doing in the classroom. It's very much about data. Now it's not really about the children any longer.

Loretta  4:01  

And that data that you enter on your computer, what happens to it?

Rob  4:06  

Wel, it gets looked at, you know, we look at the data, we're always looking at the data, that's all we do is look at the data. And I don't know, maybe some changes are made by it, but often not we just move on to the next set of data again, and if it's not us doing the data, it's the kids constantly doing surveys now and data.

Loretta  4:28  

Okay, so going back, say 20 years ago, when you first became a teacher, what was teaching for you like then?

Rob  4:35  

Teaching was great because you had the autonomy to be able to do what you wanted. So you know, for me reading and English was also a big thing. So it was something I could really really push in my classroom and work on with my kids. Whereas another teacher might have had an interest in maths and that would be the thing that they would work on and you know, you would you had the time to do this kind of thing. Now we do planning together as a group, you can't do anything as an individual, you don't have any control really over what you're doing, you're great because you all have to do the same thing. And I mean, a great example of that was, you know, maybe once upon a time I go, I'm not going to do reading for two days, because we need to finish something or do something else. But of course, because I'm actually having to plan reading for the whole team of teachers, I can't do that, because I'd be letting them down. So I still got to do it and still carry on with that when I think I don't want to do that today, because we've got something else better to do. So that autonomy is very much dead now in teaching.

Loretta  5:35  

Rob, what have been the the teaching high's for you?

Rob  5:41  

Look, without a shadow of a doubt it's the kids and often the kids who have come to my grades, and I hate to say it, but it's usually boys who have come in with a very bad reputation, and they don't want to learn and they don't want to do this, and yet they've come in with me, and they have learned, they actually have done really well. And I, you know, it's it is the way that I teach it as my input because a lot of these boys just needed a very firm hand and firm direction, which they weren't often getting. And I've got a number of stories, again, of boys who have come in and I was told, you know, they can't read and all the rest of it. These kids could read fine.  They actually ended up being the top reading group. They just need a structure and discipline and they've thrived. And I think that's probably been, you know, my highlight again, and again, watching these kids who I was told, you know, are so naughty and so bad, and they can't do this, and they can't do that. And then teachers coming back go, what did you do? And even recently, I had a parent come to me and sort of thanking me, and I'm not good at taking praise from people. I really aren't, you know, and thanking me, you know, how much progress a child has made all the reason I said, I said, I'm just doing my job. And she actually said to me, she said, Yeah, well, it's a shame a few other teachers didn't just do their job. But you know, I don't see it as anything outstanding or wonderful really is just doing my job. And, you know, that's where the success has come from. I got to text via a parent from a boy just on Saturday, actually, who again, was the boy who doesn't read at home. And they wanted to know where he could buy all the series of the Morris Gleason books because he was reading during a holiday. And this was another kid who doesn't read and, and I'm just thinking even recently looking at from my desk, and some of my big grade six boys are all very tough and Oh, very cool, of course. So he did silenct reading of this novel that I had given them. And yet these, one of the boys said to me, this is the first time ever, that I've actually read a novel in a group that I've liked, and I said, and you've been at primary school for the last six years, and you're leaving, this is dreadful, and he goes yeah. So I don't know, look, my success has come from doing my job from doing things like knowing kids, knowing what kind of literature will engage them, picking up things like one of the things I did at the beginning of the year as a spelling test on the days of the weeks and the months, and grade sixes who still can't spell January or February, those little things and working that out and getting them to be able to spell it by the end of the year. So that's where all my success is coming from, or certainly my enjoyment or whatever you'd like to see it's come from the classroom. And it's come from those kinds of kids, to be honest,

Loretta  8:30  

That sounds a lot like going back to basics.

Rob  8:34  

It is going back to basics. I've really rejected a lot of the ridiculous things that we've sort of had to do and focus on, and again, I hate to say it, but it's always the boys. The girls are great. They all usually work so hard and their handwriting is good and their behavior is good. And girls are never a challenge. It really is the boys and boys- not all- but most of them those middle class boys, they just need the basics as what they're looking for. And yes, I'm still doing spelling, I'm still doing grammar. You know, I had one boy the other day his mum had filled out his high school transition form and he said to me, let's see if mum spelt college correctly. I said Aha she has too because that's something I just focused on with the kids a few days prior about spelling College with two LL's you know and we focus on words like committee and separate these kinds of words that people don't you know, often struggle spelling with. So those basics and to hear them saying things like that, or worst of all correcting their parents. You know, it's the basics. The add ons are lovely. They really are but if it's not the basics and grade six kids who are going off to secondary school, the secondary school as soon as they can read write and spell and so often that's not the case and I've watched grade sixes just waste the year doing airy fairy rubbishy stuff, and I think you still can't spell it, you can't read and no one's pulled you up on it.

Loretta  10:02  

Well, I was actually just thinking about FISO and some of the other (oh, I just watched your eyebrows go up then...). So then it's FISO 2, and there are a whole lot of other initiatives that have come from the department. What have you been doing in your school? 

Rob  10:26  

For FISO?

Loretta  10:27  

Or any of the initiatives?

Rob  10:30  

Ah, well, of course, as you well know, Loretta, they're all bandwagon so everyone jumps on the bandwagon saying they roll out of town, and there's a huge bandwagon coming in. I think I lost interest in bandwagons a very long time ago. Look, we're doing student voice, student agency, smiling minds, respectful relationship, and the list of initiatives just goes on and on and on. And look, for me it's just tokenism. Really, that's all it is. I spend the rest of the time sort of doing things like, you know, reading and spelling and math and things like that. But oh, they're plentiful. There's just so many that we're doing it's just yet tokenism. But to be seen to be done and ticking boxes that were very much into ticking boxes and online certificates.

Loretta  11:18  

Oh, yes. The HITs?

Rob  11:23  

Oh, yes. High impact teaching strategies. Well, yes. I remember that. It's...

Loretta  11:28  

All right. Well, which ones do you use in your teaching?

Rob  11:32  

Oh, I couldn't remember it was too long ago, to be honest. It was just another folder that I put on the shelf with all the other folders to be honest.

Loretta  11:42  

Do you give your kids feedback? 

Rob  11:45  

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Whether that be individually or publicly. Yeah. Again..

Loretta  11:52  

Do you do explicit teaching?

Rob  11:54  

Absolutely. And I think this is the whole problem with all these things. You go, Oh, God, I'm already doing that. How many times you're going to tell me I'm already? Do I need to write another I can statement? Do I need to write another you do, we do, statement? No, because I'm actually doing it. And without doing all that rubbish you've actually got more time to read the damn book.

Loretta  12:18  

Yes, Rob, I can see why you've lost that, well, I'm not going to say that you've lost that passion because that's still there....

Rob  12:29  

It's still there. The one thing, being in the classroom and teaching, I'm still one hundred percent with that, just as when i first started. I've never lost that. I've lost everything else. But I've never lost that.

Loretta  12:40  

What about your colleagues? How are they feeling?

Rob  12:45  

Rundown, overworked, tired, I, I have never seen the car park so empty in the mornings as it's become over the last year. People that I once knew who would come and work on the weekends and I'd often run into them. And I still do work on the weekends, those people don't do that on the weekends any longer. They don't ring me to ask can I let them into the school or borrow the keys. The carpark doesn't even start filling up to about sort of 8.30. Whereas was once upon a time, I'd have staff come in and collect keys from a quarter past seven from my room. People, a lot of people are just very burnt out and just losing their passion and their interest for it. And it is so evident, as I say with just the little things like once knowing how full the car park was, and looking at it now. And even during these holidays, I will I will not get one text or one phone call from anyone on the staff. Whereas once upon a time during the holidays, I would.  People say I'm just doing my planner, can you give me some suggestions or or something like.  There's no communication now, it's just dead, really is dead.

Loretta  13:50  

Has COVID influenced that at all?

Rob  13:56  

You know, I was actually thinking about that last night, I really don't know whether COVID has influenced at all. It was a bad time. We didn't enjoy it. The parents hated it. We hated it and the kids hated it. But I think we got through it. I was just thinking the other day looking at my grade and I've got what I'd call a pretty average grade. I've got 28 kids in my grade. So there's a big grade and other than that boys, those average kids sort of have coped quite well, you know, they didn't lose a lot but hadn't fallen that far behind. I think it was probably a lot of the kids who really struggled were the ones who became victims of the COVID. But those middle middle row kids, they've they've done absolutely fine. So I really don't know what impact COVID had on staff. I mean, it was boring. It was, you know, me it was just like I remember one of the worst things was when we went back we had a celebration day and we had to get in touch with our feelings about and all this kind of stuff. My first response was open your boxes as we were starting work, and those kids responded to that. They didn't want to sit around and talk and re-litigating or reliving. They just got on with their work. And that's what sort of got them back on track. You know, if they needed a break, I said we'll go outside, you can have a run around for 10 minutes, you know, you don't need to do another I do chart or write a reflection or anything like that. So, but as far as the staff goes, Really, I'm not sure what effect that had on me. It was just it happened, it's past. I moved on, you know, and I think a lot of kids were like that, too. And you just wanted to get back to school. Yeah, at some normality, and as quickly as possible, rather than reflecting on it.

Loretta  15:36  

Do you think we're putting too much of an emphasis on the well being side of things?

Rob  15:41  

Oh, god, yes, absolutely. Well being. Look, again, I can only draw on my own grade this year. And again, as I say, a lot of the my boys, they don't respond to that well being as well, maybe as other children, I don't know. But you know, I can see the look in the eyes thinking, Oh, God, we've got to do mindfulness, our God, not another smiling mind, you know, the blood drains from the faces. And particularly if the boys, you know, I can't put it any other way. But they just take the piss out of most of it. You know, I tried to do mindfulness, and I couldn't close my eyes, because just as soon as my eyes were closed, they were poking each other and being stupid. So they didn't need that, they needed to be running around kicking a football, that was the mental health and it worked really well, lying on the floor on a beanbag holding crystals wasn't the direction we are and see. And I'm not saying it's wrong. And I'm saying, you know, some kids really benefit from it, and I could name them and they need that kind of input. But they are a small minority. The majority of kids are doing just well with a normal structured environment, normal play and all that kind of stuff, rather than sitting there talking about their feelings. You know, as I say, as soon as I mentioned some of those words in the classroom, you just see the blood drain out of their face, followed by the blood draining out of my face.

Loretta  17:09  

How about your colleagues? Are they feeling the same as you?

Rob  17:15  

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And look, I can think of one of my colleagues who is a far better teacher than I without a shadow of a doubt. And I've known her for a long time. She was a very, very driven woman and an excellent teacher. And she's just like me, she's had enough. Her focus and thoughts are other places. She's been beaten down, and she's one of the teachers I thought it wouldn't happen to and to watch it happen to her, I think I don't feel so bad about myself now because it's not just me, it's someone who, you know, I consider to be a better teacher than me. And she will just now do the bare minimum like me, she's 100% focused on your grade. There's no doubt about that. But all the other rubbish that went with it, she's just not interested. She's had enough.

Loretta  17:57  

So Rob, just so that I get this all into perspective, because I want to make sure that I've I've got this right: you love teaching, you love your kids, your love your classroom, but you want to be left alone to get on and do it

Rob  18:19  

One hundred percent because I know what I'm doing. And I don't need someone who's less qualified, less experienced than me giving advice on how to do better what I'm already doing.

Loretta  18:29  

So who are these less qualified people who are giving you advice?

Rob  18:33  

Well, most of it would come from the department without a shadow of a doubt, another initiative. Another thing you've got to do, and I do look at these people, and I think you know, you know, I know you're, I mean, I can think of one person who didn't do particularly well as a classroom teacher. And that person has quite high position there. And I'm thinking you're giving me advice? Yeah.

Loretta  18:59  

If you had the job of Minister for Education, what's the first thing you do?

Rob  19:05  

Universities will be completely overhauled and cut the rot out where it begins there.

Loretta  19:11  

What is tht rot? What does it look like?

Rob  19:13  

So that rot is that the theory comes before the practice. Now teaching is a very practical job regardless to what some people might think. So student teachers need to be vetted. They need to make sure that if they are failing, they don't end up coming out of the other end of four years with a degree when they knew in year one, they would never ever be a good teacher. You need to give these teachers practical experience then go back and link the theory to that not the other way around. Now, there's been endless reviews done on teacher training and it's never changed nor will it ever change. But again, you know, 20 years later, the school student teachers coming through the school saying oh, god University hasn't prepared me for this. This stuff we do at university is no use. So it needs to be completely overhauled. So we need the right people and teaching people who want to teach. And then that practice given to them within the classroom, and then going away and doing the theory.

Loretta  20:12  

How do you find the right people?

Rob  20:16  

How do you find the right people? Well, the signs are always the at the end of the day, I see many teachers come in, and I thought, No, you're useless, you're going to fail. And what happens? They do. They get an ongoing position. And if you ever see other teachers, and I can think of one off the top of my head right now that we've got. Brilliant girl just come out, I only sort of met her for this term. She's a brilliant teacher, she's engaged with the kids, she's provided a great program. She's on the level, she's just all the hallmarks of a young girl who will become a great teacher, and others who are just the opposite. And then as I say, you ask yourself, how on earth have you managed to get through four years of University with a degree and your class are swinging from the rafters and you can't do an equivalent fraction?

Loretta  21:08  

What else would you do as Minister for Education? But the second thing so the first thing issued, overhauled the universities? Let you Yep. What's the second thing?

Rob  21:17  

I would drag the curriculum into the 21st century, the curriculum is so out of date, and so out of touch with with kids in the 21st century, I would completely overhaul it, there is so much that we do that has no relevance to children's lives at the moment and the way they communicate digitally. We you know, we don't do that. Well, I look at you know, when kids often say to me, or Harrah's this mess useful. And I think, well, it's not really going to be useful. And I just tell them, you've got to jump through the hoops. It's just about jumping through hoops. I look at genres of writing, we teach and think we do you ever going to do this? And as they become adults, and I'm in the fortunate position, I've seen all these kids that I've taught grown as adults now. And I thought, No, I was right. You never use any of that stuff at all. So a major curriculum overhaul?

Loretta  22:06  

What do you reckon teaching is going to go? So just say five years from now? What do you reckon it will be like?

Rob  22:15  

I don't know. Look, as you're aware, a lot of people aren't choosing into going going into teaching at university. So it's not the first choice, unfortunately. So a lot of people aren't even coming for efficient. They say that, you know, a graduate teacher, 30% of them are going to leave in the first five years, I really believe that percentage is much higher. I don't know where teaching is going. I really don't. I don't know I don't see a bright future for teaching. I really don't.

Loretta  22:48  

Have you ever thought about becoming a principal?

Rob  22:54  

Nothing. Oh, and look, the reason is, I always call a principal, I think a principal is a triangle. So whereas I only had to deal for kids, and I've, you know, one or two parents, that principals got to deal with parents, that principal has got to deal with staff, and then children. And absolutely not, I couldn't think of anything worse. I'm happy to deal with children and obviously, you know, bright children every now and then. But God tried to do that in the staff meetings you can't do with adults what you do have children. So dealing with all three and then on top of that, you know, the office ladies banging on that you need to renew the photocopier contract and then someone's banging on your door saying the gills toilets are blocked. Oh, God Narita

Loretta  23:38  

or you just need to have a really good pair of rubber boots

Rob  23:42  

in your office? Yeah, absolutely. And

Loretta  23:45  

we had a few pairs, all different sizes. And then the size that fitted me I got rid of those. Because that was one thing that I deliver delegated to my APs. Yeah, no, you're right. You're right, Rob, the principal's job. The best part about it is often what you don't get to do and that is working with the really good people because you're dealing with all the shitty stuff.

Rob  24:11  

Oh, absolutely. And you don't even get a chance to do it. I mean, at the end of the day, principals should be running the school as far as curriculum and all that kind of stuff. Not doing all the other stuff. And  even our principal was talking to you the other day, she said to me, I asked her question. She said, Oh, God, I don't think I can make one more decision today and I said,  Oh, no, I don't think you can. It's just relentless. I know. It's relentless. It's, I really couldn't think of anything worse. And you're constantly got parents moaning, and staff issues and staff moaning and kids outside your office and the more parents moaning. It's just Oh, it's just ongoing.

Loretta  24:52  

You'd hear teachers moaning, wouldn't you? 

Rob  24:56  

Oh yes, I  hear moaning all the time. 

Loretta  24:58  

 what do you do when you hear them? 

Rob  25:02  

i just ignore them, unless they're moaning at me!

Loretta  25:07  

And what about parents when they moaning? What do you do? 

Rob  25:10  

Look, I've got to be honest, again, I have been very lucky. I've hardly ever had any problems with parents over the years. A lot of the kids I think I've taught and again, I'd probably use my grade as a great example this year, normal, normal kids, normal parents. And look, I've been lucky. I've taught a lot of normal kids. And those normal parents don't bother you. They're actually the ones who come and say, Thank you. I've had far more thank yous from parents than I've ever had issues with, to be honest, 

Loretta  25:40  

That's beautiful.

Rob  25:41  

But I am lucky, you know, I, I watch other teachers with parents outside the door every day, you know, busting them busting your chops on this thing and on the other thing. It's the same parents ringing the office, it's, yeah, I've been fortunate, but I'm a rare commodity. I'm a rare commodity. And I look, I've always sort of had the policy that if there's a problem, come and see me, but don't come and see me if it's just for a chat or to bother me, because I'm busy. And I think I send that message out very loud and clear. So the parents who have come to see me, it's always been about very genuine issues that needed addressing, I haven't had sort of the trivial things, you know, my school and my child's lost the lunch bag or something like that. So I've been lucky.

Loretta  26:25  

How do you keep well?

Rob  26:29  

Cigarettes! Cigarettes. Coffee. Pizza. Coke! How do I keep well?  Look, I have had very, very few sick days, I think I'm up to about 190 sick days, and I'll probably lose at the end of the year. I've enjoyed going to work because I've enjoyed going to my grade. And that's what's I think, kept me well, you know, I haven't been too sick. Touchwood. And I've had very few sick days. I mean, the kids will always tell you, Oh, he's always here. Yes, I'm here. You know, they look through the window thinking is he going to be away? And there I am standing there writing something on the board. No, look, the kids and the actual....my grade that's what's kept me well. I really believe had I been in any other position within the school, as I'm sort of watching with some teachers now, they are not well, the job is crippling them really, really is. And I guess I'm survived so far, because I have just kept putting those FISO folders and 5 whys folders on the bookshelf and just continue. Yeah, it's and just really sort of focused on those kids. And I think that's what's keeping me well.

Loretta  27:42  

You know, just going back to you putting those FISO folders and the HITs folders on your bookcase. But you get on with the job, and you do it well, which demonstrates that there's a lot of efficacy there.

Rob  28:01  

Yes, yes. You just know. Yeah, that's it. I don't I don't know how to explain it either. You just You just know and look like it at the end of the day. I mean, you know, assessment, this assessment that but if you're reading with children every day, you know where the problems are. If you're marking the children's writing, you know where the problems are, you don't need to be a genius to work it out. And then at the end of the day, depending whether you're a good or a bad teacher, you've got the choice, or I've just seen this error here. Do I do something about it? Or do I just write correct it or repeat it and do nothing about it? So the child keeps making that error? Whereas I think hopefully good teachers actually do something about it. Rather than just putting across and handing the book back to the child.

Loretta  28:44  

Intuitive? Yeah, maybe? Yes.

Rob  28:46  

Yes, possibly. Yeah. Look, it

Loretta  28:49  

is. And I think that that intuition that you have, where you just know what's going on, how many times do you walk into your classroom, and you just eyeball a kid and you think something's going on there.

Rob  29:05  

Without a shadow of a doubt. I had that very thing on Friday with one particular kid that he had just had teeth pulled, which I wasn't aware of. And right from the time he walked in, and I thought, hang on, you're not right. There's something wrong here. Yeah, I just had an..

Loretta  29:21  

amount of FISO folders will help you with that child,

Rob  29:25  

then I'd be because I'd be busy reading the FISO folder, so wouldn't have time to look at the child.

Loretta  29:31  

Yeah. Um, if what you feel, I mean, you were saying that some of your colleagues aren't really doing too well. What advice do you give them about surviving the job?

Rob  29:48  

I don't know. Look, I'm not the kind of person who has people come to for advice to be very honest. I tend to be a little bit like the kids. I tend to be the person you go to, you know, when everything else has gone wrong. Maybe you want some really good advice. So I don't know I, not many staff come and ask me those questions.

Loretta  30:08  

Yeah. Well, Rob, I think education, losing people such as yourself, you know, these, you know, no nonsense people, I've spoken to a few principals who are no nonsense principals who just don't, don't jump on the bandwagon and go for any initiative. They're very selective. And they say, Well, what is it that my school needs? You know, you're exactly the same. You, you go into your classroom, and you say, Well, what is it that my kids need? You know, and I think if we had more teachers like you  they would probably do better. And we may not need all that data, just looking at that data, and then collecting more data and moving on. So I'm sorry for education. I'm sorry for your kids, that you're not going to be there next year. But I mean, obviously, you've got other things that you're working on. Can you share them?

Rob  31:13  

Um, well, I'm not that prepared. Look, I mean, I know that, you probably know that when I'm not teaching, I've spent a long time in the theater doing a lot of theater lighting. So they're just something I am thinking about pursuing. And I mean, there are all kinds other jobs, you know, I looked at a job the other day, and it was working in a hotel, it was night shift, I love night shift, going back to nursing, and it wasn't organising a thing. So I thought that will be good. I can do my night shift, I wouldn't have to see too many people, I'd be left alone, that would suit me down tothe ground and just do the events every now and then. So look, I mean, they've always talked about teachers having transferable skills. And I think one of the, you know, the basis of good teachers as you're organized. And if you're organized and teaching, you can be organized and anything and you know, and that common sense approach. So I mean, teaching does have very transferable skills and a lot of other things. You know, somebody will say to me, oh, you know, it'd be great as a wedding planner, because they really want to be organized down to the last minute. I said, Yeah, you know, that could be an idea as well. But again, it's going back to the organization. And it's, you know, I often hear teachers, they oh no, children were misbehaving because of this or that. Yeah. But that's because you weren't organized and why you're busy fanning about trying to find half your papers. They were throwing rubbers at each other. Yes, because you're taking your eyes off them. So whose fault was that? And I hate to say it, but that's a question I have asked a lot recently when I hear teachers complain about kids behavior. But whose fault is it? Is it yours? Or is it the children's and I can see where the fault lies?

Loretta  32:53  

Well, that no nonsense approach of yours has stood in great stead.  You've had, I can see some colossal highs. And I'm sure you've got a lot of kids who are now adults and a very grateful for that approach.

Rob  33:11  

Oh, look, I think one of the greatest things about Instagram is it allowed me to catch up with a lot of kids I have taught. Now I've got one particular boy who's a plumber now, who's taking me out for coffee during the holidays to catch up. Yes, and I've got a couple of other boys who are also taking me out for coffee as well, to have a catch up. So yeah, having said that, I've had contact with these, these kids and some of the girls as well on Instagram, it's really funny to watch them grown up. But, you know, I suppose they are grateful. You know, I'm quite humbled when it comes to that. But you know, when I've seen certain things like, you know, it was because of you another colleague of mine, that, you know, I've done so well, when you get things like anything. That is nice. That is really nice. You can see what you've done probably has worked for those kids.

Loretta  34:02  

Yeah, look, I know you've got this facade Rob, where you say, Look, just leave me alone. Get out of my life. I'm not putting up with that crap. But you do have a very strong desire to, to connect with people and to build those relationships. So just

Rob  34:20  

don't like to let it show too much.

Loretta  34:24  

So thank you very much for taking the time to share your thoughts. I I suspect that there are a lot of teachers who feel like you I mean, we hear it every day. Yeah. And the people like, or the teachers like you are certainly a big loss to state education. But thank you for the 20 years that you have given kids and the system. Thank you for all those great relationships that you've built, including that great relationship that you built with me back many years ago when I was your principal.

Rob  35:03  

Yes. And I often think there's probably a few parents who are very grateful to you. 

Loretta  35:08  

You reckon? 

I think so. Yeah, absolutely. Well,

I after moving on from that school where I employed you, because I make no secret of the fact that I just love mature age people because they bring, they bring a wealth of, of lots of different things to the job, as compared to someone straight out of uni who made only might only be 20 or 22 years old.

Rob  35:39  

You know, and I think to be honest, I mean, my my perception and ideas of teaching were well and truly triaged before it even gone to university, you know, as you say, being a mature age student. And coming from the hospital industry, I had no ideas, you know, what I wanted to be and I don't think university ever changed me. I can remember getting a few comments on some of my papers saying, Are you being sarcastic? Or do you really mean this? So and I just bought that and you know, on day one, just sort of my opinions and ideas were seen and so they haven't changed a lot but I think you're right, I didn't come in blind. I hid my ideas of what I wanted to do what I wanted to achieve and I think over the years I Well, I've keep what works and throw out what didn't work. And I think hopefully that sort of contributed to my my success because I'm doing pretty much the same thing with kids now that I did 20 years ago. And that's still the same kids, some of the same parents now.

Loretta  36:38  

Okay, Rob, wishing you all the best in your future endeavors, whatever they may be working in a pub or you know, doing the lighting for some great theater show that that's coming up. Look after yourself.

Rob  36:54  

Thank you, Loretta thank you.

Loretta  36:57  

Thanks for listening to this latest episode of talking out of school, where we cover topics and dilemmas associated with the ups and downs, and even the downright curious of the school leaders job. Want to know more? Then visit me at shaping leaders.com.au But for now, he has to satying ahead of the game.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai