ITC SPECIAL: Building A Dance School Brand That Scales

Your dance school can be amazing in the studio and still struggle to grow online, in new towns, or in your own bank account. We talk with Amy, founder of Dance Concepts in Ireland, about what actually changed when she stopped treating branding like a logo project and started treating it like a parent experience. Her business has grown to 15 locations by bringing ballet, jazz, contemporary, and acro to rural communities that are often overlooked and by making sure every touchpoint says the same thing: confidence and creativity through movement.

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Transcript

Welcome And Dance Concepts Origin

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome Amy to the Class for Kids Podcast in the club. It's great to have you here. We have worked with Amy over a you know number of different things, one of them being our famous level up campaign with her dance school Dance Concepts. Amy's based in Ireland, but I'm not going to go into any more detail because Amy, it would be lovely if you could introduce yourself, tell us a bit about yourself and your business.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Yeah, that's great. My name is Amy, and I we're actually celebrating 10 years of dance concepts this year. So I started it at 19, kind of just as a bit of a passion project outside of college. And it's just since then we've got the opportunity to open up in multiple locations, and at the moment we're at 15 locations, looking at many more in the future. We're trying to get dance, uh ballet, contemporary, jazz, and acro into communities across Ireland. So that's kind of our business model is that we look for communities that are underserved and for children who mightn't get that opportunity to get high-level technique classes, and we can kind of give that to them. And then also we give teachers who mightn't want to run their own business. We give them the opportunity to teach in their spare time. Like a lot of our teachers are uh primary school teachers, some of them are uh physiotherapists, some work in marketing, so it's it's kind of works all around for the children and for teachers as well. Um, and I think that's kind of the best background about dance concepts. I've left out so much, but that's clear. That's our high level.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

I have a whole hour on just like the business itself, and we'll try and get into that as we go through this podcast um episode.

Winning Level Up And Owning Leadership

SPEAKER_00 1:43

But one of the things we spoke about just a minute ago was the fact that you were um a level up winner. So for those of you who are maybe watching, listening to this, level up is a competition that Class for Kids runs where we give a business makeover, and that comes in the form of many different things from branding to social um sessions to marketing sessions, working with business experts. And I remember vividly, Amy, when I was reviewing applications for the year that you entered, um one of the things that did stand out was the fact that you were in rural communities in Ireland, and I was kind of very intrigued by this because I was like, well, what does that look like? How do you run a business across? You know, I'm from a rural location. So, for example, how does that happen and how do you scale that? So that's one of the things I vividly remember from your application. So let's kind of um start to dig into level up, um, which is now next level. We've rebranded that and kind of changed a few things um since the the time that you entered. What attracted you to applying for that? And I mean, obviously the winners are always like I never expected to win, but when you did win, what were your expectations around it?

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Well, what drew me to it, I think it had come at a really good time for me where I had kind of I was plateauing a little bit with the business and kind of not sure where to go because as dance teachers, we start the cut the business because we love dance, but we don't have the business expertise behind us. So when I saw level up at the time, um it really just the way it was the coaching and the advice that kind of came along with it, and I was like, that just sounds like is that exactly what I needed at that time. Uh so I entered and popped in all our details, and I can still remember, I was only thinking about it before jumping on the podcast. I was away at the time at my parents, and I remember getting a call, and I actually I think I jumped up and down. Like I was just so I was so happy. I never win anything like it. Um, and of course, I'd worked with you guys uh with the with the booking software for so many years as well, and I knew how powerful that had been for me, like between cutting the admin time. So it's like whatever you guys are doing, it's going to be it's going to be brilliant. So the expectations from that you guys had made it so clear um what exactly what was going to happen. But I don't think I could have imagined how much help it would have been. I was just like, yeah, it's gonna be good, it's gonna really, really help dance concepts. But I think what I didn't expect was how much it would help me as a person and as um a business owner to kind of step into that role rather than just being a dance teacher. Uh so that was the that was the biggest change that I saw was like not just taking, it wasn't just the dance classes anymore, it was stepping into uh a business. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Yeah, and that's kind of I guess the purpose of it that we can help you with all these sessions and things like that. But it is about making sure that you get something out of it, because if you get something out of it, the business will undeniably follow suit. So let's kind of unpack some of the sessions that you went through and and what your learnings were and what you think would be helpful to share to others who are maybe in that position where you were a few

Branding Beyond Pretty Colors

SPEAKER_00 4:46

years ago. So um what did the well first of all, what did you understand about brand before going through level up? Because I imagine your understanding of it now is very different. But what did you think brand was before entering?

SPEAKER_01 4:58

So for me, branding, I actually I studied communications in college, so I had a decent, I had a decent level of it, but for me it was still very much what looks pretty. And the brand at the time was pink, it was, I think it was an image of me and it was a silhouette, and I was like, this is exactly what I'd want, but that's not that's not what branding should be. It's like when I worked, when I might be jumping ahead now, but when I worked with with Jack, I think it was Jack at the time that you guys were working with as well. Um he completely changed my version of what branding was. Like I was just like, this is what I'd like to hear, and this is what I'd like to see, but I'm not my customer. It's it's about the customer experience, not your experience as such. And yes, you do have to love it, but it his questionnaire was one of the most one of the because I think I worked with him first, and when I got his questionnaire, it was like, whoa, hold on a second. I have to look at the business as a whole here. Like before, it was like just pick it, pick a pretty colour and post put it on a poster, and that'll be fine. Um but now it's about we can use it across everything, it's recognizable now. Our logo is recognised in a lot mostly all over Ireland, like in majority of the cut of the counties, just because it is standout and it's it's uh standalone icon on it in itself and the colours, the colours are a big thing. We we turned away every well, not on purpose, but no boys came to us because we were purely pink, and now we have a lovely greens and purples, and it just it works all around with our messaging as well, which the messaging was huge. Again, I thought it was just a colour, but it's actually about your voice and so much more.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Gosh, I feel like we've just covered everything off that I would have said, Dave. That's absolutely fully. You know, you're absolutely you've got it spot on around what brand is, and it's absolutely first of all, kind of I like to talk about our brand solar system, and that is like your customers right at the heart of what you you do. So it's almost like dance concepts in the middle, and then around that is your customer, and it is exactly that. It's what's their understanding of who you are, and how do they relate to you, what's their perception of you? And these things should help shape your brand's sort of identity, I guess, and sort of the values that you stand for. Um, kind of visual identity is important because that's the things that help us recall brands or recognise them, and that can come in the form of your logo, like you said, you know, you're now recognized across Ireland, or um, from a social media post or a newsletter that you might send out. It's very identifiably dance concepts, and that's important. And and all those things are shaped by what our customers think about us. Um, so looking back, you know, you kind of talked about the brand sort of being this kind of pink thing, and then you moved into this new thing that feels a bit more uniform and it can be applied to any county, it can be for anybody who wants to dance. Where is the brand sort of these these years later? Where where is it now and and what is happening in that space?

SPEAKER_01 7:57

So we are now focused on our messaging, is the biggest thing for us. It's all about confidence and creativity through movement. That's our tagline now, and that is how we do everything, not just how we teach the classes, but how we communicate with parents. Um, they know they know our voice now. It's if like you said, if we just if we were to send out a blank newsletter with no logo on it, they would still know it's from us. It's how we post on social media, it's consistent. All of our so we get our assistants in on on board with our social media as well, which I know we'll probably speak about a bit l a bit about later too, but they know how we speak and they know our tone of voice as well. So from where we started 10 years to where we are now, we are more confident in ourselves, we're more consistent, and it also has allowed me to kind of take a step back too, because it's not my voice that's in it anymore, it's it's the company's, it's the it's the brand's voice.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

And I think so many people will identify and relate to that.

Start With Why Then Systemize

SPEAKER_00 9:01

That you know, for many people listening or watching this, it will be that they are still very much involved in it, and maybe that's just the stage of business that they're at. But how do people get out of that kind of rut if they're feeling like they're too involved with things that they do want to step back? So it's not the brand isn't them, it's actually about what it should be about the customer perception. What's your advice to get to that stage?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

My best advice is always to start with your why. So write down your why on a piece of paper. For me, it was creating a space where children can work on their confidence and grow, grow with the sense of community and just to have that safe space. So, what systems and things could I put in place that would allow for that to happen? And when I looked at it, it was actually putting systems in place that made me, that gave me more free time. Because when you're stuck in the weeds and you're stressed and you're stressing about everything, because when we start a business, we are the accountant, the marketer, the the booking system, we are the we do everything and all we want to do is teach. But you can't give your best when you're doing everything. So start with your why, then put in place a couple of small things. It doesn't have to be, you don't have to become the huge business in the in that first day. It's seeing what can you what can you hand off to somebody else? If it's one of your teachers, if it's your assistant, even if it's your assistant, snapping a couple of stories every single class, something else that you don't have to do that will lighten the load that's up in your head. Because when everything's up here, nothing is actually getting done. It's um so that my best advice is to write down your why and then start with small systems like Class for Kids for the booking software. That will that alone will save you like 40 hours a week. So yeah, I think that's my best advice. And also, as well, just to take a look at what is taking up most of your time. So have a little audit for your business and see if it is socials and then is socials the best use of your time.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Yeah, and it's it's that element of what do you actually enjoy as well, and what elements do you not enjoy that you could hand off to somebody who'd actually be better at it than you, and it frees that time up in your mind to think on different things. So that's a really important one around kind of freeing up time and giving people the who have the skill sets to actually work on these tasks. So um looking at where you are now and how you've worked on the brand, and evidently it's kind of changed your perspective on things and helped you grow as a person. Would you say that the brand now creates more sort of trust within your communities across Ireland? And and what tangible results are you seeing off the back of that? So, how is the business growing, or you know, what's the reputation of dance concepts across these communities like?

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Yeah, it definitely has. Like, we're just we're recognized and we're actually finding now that we're at a stage, like it's it's the brand, but it's also having the 10 years behind us as well. Like it does take time, is what I'd say to people as well. Like growing a business, it's it's like growing, it wasn't built in a day. So give yourself some grace with that too, and know that if you do the small steps every single day, that eventually it will build up to that. But we are at the stage now where we have communities coming to us asking us to set up classes in their local communities, so it's fantastic. We're having to do less market research out there, we're less, we're having to do less outreach to find venues because they're coming to us, and also teachers are coming as well looking for work because they know that it's a it's a reputable brand for that side as well. And we've also been able to move into other places like birthday parties and workshops with secondary schools and and primary schools, so they they trust the brand now and they know what our overall message is, and it's not it's not dance classes, dance classes, dance classes is secondary to the confidence building aspect of it.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Yeah, and it sounds like there's been real sort of tangible results then from a business impact point of view that you've been able to grow and scale, you're now getting more communities coming to you rather than you having to go to communities, and then that kind of sort of extension of what you already offer within the birthday party space. So, um, if I was to ask you your kind of top three pieces of advice for somebody looking to kind of move their brand forward, what would that be? It sounds like the start with why was kind of your first thing that you're like, this is what you should begin with. What would the other two pieces of advice be?

SPEAKER_01 13:21

My second piece of advice would be to audit it and just have a look. Is your brand is it consistent across all, across your posters, across social media, across your newsletters? Are people getting the same message everywhere they look? Your wet check your website, our colours not just logo, but the brand voice as well. And then my third piece of advice would be to pick your three values. So find what, even if it's one or two, but have your values and know that your messaging is the same with for everything. Like for us, it's it's creativity, confidence, and community. So it's nice and easy, the three C's. But every single one of our messages is like, is it creative? Is are we mentioning confidence somewhere? And is is it based in community? Which is just for for you for everyone listening, it's going to be different. But make sure you're sure on those as well. So look at your why, audit, and then pick your values.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Yeah, and I think the values, the last point you touched on, is super important because yes, that's good for an external facing side of things when it comes to your brand. But actually, I think the values almost matter more to how you represent the business and your coaches and your teachers because they should be living your values day in, day out so that it reflects and kind of projects out into the external world that that's what Dance Concepts is known for. And it's that kind of harnessing it and taking it internally and doing trainings regularly to make sure we're living out these values and making sure that that's what we're still known for. And I think that's one thing I've learned at my time at class for kids is the importance of regular perception surveys with your customer base and understanding what was their opinion, what is the opinion now, what three words would they use to describe you in 2025 versus 2026? Because brand for me is always evolving. It's a living, breathing thing. And what might have been true of, let's say, dance concepts three years ago, some elements of that might be the same, but actually it grows and it evolves. So I think that value piece that you just touched on is super important to you know, make sure the coaches, the staff, the teachers, whoever it is, admin staff, social media staff, we all live out those values and that sort of the external projection into the world, as it were. So some really helpful pieces of advice there, Amy, and just such a you know a pleasure to see how you've grown as a person. And obviously your background and comms and that kind of thing will have been helpful. But that kind of key element that you've said about the customer being at the heart of everything is just so crucial. And it will always be that case, no matter what happens, you know, no matter what technological stage we're through, whether AI is coming, you know, more and more to fruition. We always want that authentic engagement with a brand. And I think you've really touched on that. And I'm sure there's so many helpful pieces of advice for people who are listening and watching to this.

Social Media Parents Actually Want

SPEAKER_00 16:02

So, moving on, then you've kind of touched on social media a few times. So I want to pick your brains a little bit around um how level up helped really shape your knowledge and sort of evolve what you're doing in the social media space. So, if I was to ask you what was your marketing strategy before you you went level up, what was it? How did you post on social media? How did you show up? How did you get in front of customers?

SPEAKER_01 16:27

I love Canva.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

So I guess we all do it. Listen, everybody loves Canva, there's no shame in that.

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Yeah, but I was spending hours on Canva and I was just creating pretty posts and thinking like this will be lovely. And then when you look, I'd like they get like five views, and it was like this is this. I'm spending like 10 10 hours a week just trying to make things look pretty.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

And in reality, parents just want to see their kids dancing, so it's it's like that element of brand of like it's not about what you want, it's about what the customer wants. It's so hard for us to accept that because you're like, This looks really pretty, I really like this, but cut the customers wants to see their kids in classes.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Exactly. So it's like I'm like, my the grid looked perfect. But who actually goes onto an Instagram page and looks at the grid? Like they're looking at they're like parents, aren't they scrolling and they don't like they see so many posters and so many like different things, it's not going to stop them. But if they see a kid who has just become like so confident and has gotten the move correct and everything, and of course, you have to be careful, like we have all the the GDPR and everything, like you need that's something you definitely need to look out for, especially in this day and age, is that parents are happy for that. So once we know the parents are happy to post, like they're posting them themselves, and then they're we're happy, they're happy for us to post as well. And um, I just have to mention that because it is super important these days. But we now have our assistants on board with the with the reels and the the stories, and our reach has just gone through the roof since they've since they've been posting just little simple things like a warm-up in class today, or the it's the small details that I find that that make you stand out from the rest. Like we give we give birthday cards to the kids on their birthdays, and then they get a it's posted on the story or on the grid. And like it's it's funny. Like we have parents coming being like, Oh, my child's birthday is during the summer, will they still get a birthday card? And it's it's like it matters to them so much. Yeah, like it's it's everyone getting their moments. So we do. We do like we have like the Easter birthdays, so they get them, they all get them on the last class before, or the summer birthdays, they'll all get their birthday cards before that, but putting up those little moments as well, so that parents can see it's not just it's more than just a dance class, um, or even the kids just chit-chatting in a corner that they're making friends. So it's not making your social media pretty, it's actually posting about what you do and what your messaging is. Again, it goes hand in hand with brand, is making sure it's consistent across everything.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yeah. And I think you I'm remembering back to the the days when Instagram first launched and as it evolved, and brands used to do like, you know, a full nine posts for the grids that it's really pretty and it would unveil this kind of image for something that they were launching. And it's just moved on so so much since then. And it definitely is about, you know, it's not as if when we're online and let's look at like, you know, curries and Argos are really funny on TikTok, they're really relevant. But it's not as if we're thinking when we go on to social media, I wonder what curries are posting today, because I want to know about what curries is. They create content that's engaging, it's funny, it's that kind of thing where you're like, oh, what are they posting that you know I could apply to my business? Or um they kind of have this ongoing like beef between themselves and that kind of thing, and they post videos about each other, and it's actually really, really funny and it engages people, but you're not going on going, I wonder what toaster curries have at the minute. Whereas I think with dance and sort of any kids' activity club, it's the same kind of concept where you're thinking, well, actually, what do people want to see? Because it's great that I have this really pretty post and it looks really aesthetically pleasing, but is that what they want to see? Do they do they want to see this kind of um templated model thing from Canva on my grid? Or actually would they rather see what the kids are learning? How are we meeting the brand values within classes? What are we delivering? What are the outcomes that I'm my child's going to get from going to this class? And I think you've kind of hit the nail on the head. So I I've actually I've got a good example of it if you want one.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Yeah, a good Irish example, actually. We had our St. Patrick's Day post, and then we had an a reel of the children um doing the doing their dance moves, but with the Irish word on it, and I think it got like 10 times as more more views, and then like our run-of-the-mill canva post that probably took me an hour to make.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

So it definitely shows you you're like, I have pretend to that. Um what works, and that's the thing is that you've got to go with what works as long as it's in line with like what you stand for, and you know it matches everything that your brand stands for and it matches what you believe in, then I think that's the important thing is that you're going with, well, what do my parents want to see? What's going to engage them? Because that's what's going to drive engagement, that's what's going to drive people sharing things via direct message or tagging people in something which then kind of amplifies your reach, gets you into the mindset or sort of knowledge base of new parents, and that's what's going to help kind of grow the business. So if you cast your mind back then to level up, you would have gone through um a social media audit where we would have looked at one of your channels. So I think it was Instagram that we looked at for you. What do you remember about that session? And was there anything that you can remember that were like, you know, gems of like information that you've kind of still think about today and carry forward today?

SPEAKER_01 21:48

Yeah, I still I still use the the the templates. The templates were fantastic. So we still I actually think I posted one last week. Um that was really helpful as that like it that took Me off Canva for hours, which was just like these are your templates. Make sure that you just use these. It doesn't like it doesn't need to be, it doesn't need to be what you want to see every single time. Like just get something out there. Um, but as well, it was being consistent. That was a huge one for me. And because again, the 10 hours on Canva, I wasn't being consistent with it. Whereas now we have the assistants on board with it that like I don't have to be in classes taking pictures and putting up stories. Like, and it's using all of the using everything that you can. So it's not just posts, it's not just images, it's the reels, it's the stories. Um even so much, and like keeping up to trends as well. That was uh kind of a good one, too, which is like you don't have to do every trend, but like I know there was one recently about like um we we would like to sincerely apologize for so like that one works really well for a dance school as well. Like it's it's not having to do every trend, but keeping up with them, and then the storytelling that still sticks with me. That um it was just like like telling a story is it's what we all want. It's that that's the entertainment aspect of anything. So if you can tell a story through your post, through every single message, that's what parents are going to stop scrolling because there's so much out there for like they're so we're fighting against so much here for attention. So uh if you can tell that little story, that's perfect.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Yeah, and that's it. It's like what builds trust, what builds engagement, what builds that kind of yeah, okay, this is Dan's concepts posting. I'm gonna stop that scroll because I mean I've had to set limits on my phone because I was just doom scrolling, and and so so many of us are the same because we just once at the end of the day just collapse on the sofa and either zone out to a book TV show or we go on social media and we scroll, and it is it's that kind of how do you stand out, how do you break through the noise of so many other you know competitors, so many other brands that are out there posting? It's it's very overwhelming. So I think building that engagement, that entertainment, that value, that trust with your kind of key market is what helps you kind of stand out. Um, and how would you say everything that you learned within the social media audit, what kind of impact is that having on your results from social media? So, for example, you talked about more engagement across posts. Um, are you gaining new followers? Are you getting more inquiries through your social media? What does that look like

Facebook Ads Targeting Plus Tracking

SPEAKER_00 24:14

now?

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Yeah, we we have about 40% of our students and parents coming to us from social media, and it's a mix of the ads, which was a huge, huge help. I think Facebook ads, I had a training session on that as well for level up. That has probably been the biggest change for us because now instead of just throwing up a boosting a post, we know exactly what to do with it. And a lot of our like the budget for Facebook ads has improved, has gone up so much since level up as well, because we know like the value of that, like before spending hundreds and mar on posters and leaflets, which are still important. I will say that that I think that might just be our business model as well, though. Like we are still in small communities who still like their posters, so it's it's a mix of both, but we've been able to reach so many more people through Facebook ads. So we've seen like real, real results through that, and we're able to track that as well through class for kids from asking parents how they've heard about us. Uh, so that's something that we do track now every single month as well. Like tracking is huge. I don't know, you think I've mentioned that yet, but once you are tracking real results and not kind of just thinking, okay, on paper, yeah, we it looks really good.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

But like the things are you tracking then, just so that people you know listening to this think actually that's probably really important for me to do what are the things that you track?

SPEAKER_01 25:39

So every week we track the finances just to make sure that that's all okay. And this is where I'm I think in another life I might have been an accountant. I I love maths, it's it's it's a strange one. I have the creativity side with the dance, but I love I don't think I don't know will I ever hand off the accounts apart from the end of the year, but I just I love that side of things. Um, so then the tracking side kind of plays into that part of my brain as well. So finances, of course, is a big one. We look at the numbers every single week. What's our how many trials are we getting in? How many, like what's our the word's gone from my head now, but our fall-off rate. Um I can't think of that word.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

You're thinking of like conversion rate from trial through to actual customers, that what you're thinking of drop-off churn, churn.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

That's the word I'm looking for. Yeah, what's our churn? And uh then social media that we were looking at reach, we're looking at we're trying to do our tracking as well through like who comes to the website, looking at website views. I will say at the moment it's not the best, and we're actually looking at taking on someone now to take over the social media side of things full time, again, someone who is more experienced than me, but that's again because we've had the time and like we're getting to the stage now where the business is growing that we're able to put more investment into that side of things. But even from just tracking it like through the Facebook ads, I've found it's like, okay, yeah, well, this isn't working, so don't keep doing that because you're only it's you're you're burning through you're burning through money there. So yeah, um, and then one thing I will say when you are tracking for us, it's it's definitely best to go with percentage because numbers-wise, it's it can be it can be disheartening at times because like we started with 50 kids and now we have 500. So if you work on percentage, like we like our churn rate, like if you're seeing that there's 10 kids going every single month, that can be really disheartening. But actually, when you look at it, it's like 0.5%. So that's what some that's a piece of advice I'd get everyone is just to look at percentage because as you grow, the numbers will grow, but the percentages should hopefully stay the same.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Yeah, and I think it's you know, it's hard to accept, you know, sort of accept when people do leave. I think it's like, oh, like that, it feels quite personal. But you know, you have to remember that things change, things circumstances change in parents' life. So looking at it as like a percentage does help because there is that kind of business growth. You know, you might have lost three customers, but how many new ones did you gain within that month as well? So it's perspective, you know, it's it's being honoured about numbers and knowing that if you request on it, you could go, well, this is how many we lost, but this is how many we gained. But you know, perspective and having that. I'm a big believer in positive mentality of being a realist and looking at, well, what are the numbers? But actually, where are the positives? Where are the wins from this month? And I think that kind of advice is super helpful. Um, okay, so if you were to sum up your top pieces of advice um for both paid and organic social, what would your your pieces of advice be for people who are watching or listening to this?

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Create, make sure you're creating a story, would be my first one. Don't just put something up there because it looks pretty. Um step away from Canva for a little bit. Canva's fantastic, but definitely look at more organic content and just if if something looks looks nice, like maybe go back to the days of like posting your cup of coffee or like, and it's something I actually have to get better at as well. Show the behind the scenes, show the messy parts of things.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yes, I'm such a big proof of that, and I'm not I'm terrible at it.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

I'm I just I'm um since since getting the teachers and the assistants on board, it's the people rarely see the behind the scenes, but parents do need to see that too. And sometimes when we post that stuff, it's that's what gets them more views as well. And it's kind of it may seem more personable to the to the parents as well. Like they're like, Oh, she's also having a bad day, which we all have. Um, or it's like, okay, no, look at all the hours of admin that's going into this showcase. Like, that's a huge one when we do what we do coming up to shows that we show everything behind the scenes, which makes parents value you more, and you can look at your and they look at your pricing then and it will make more sense to them. Uh, because they just see that their kid shows up at dance class and that's it. But my third piece of advice would be for social media.

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Think about it from a paid perspective. I mean, you've talked about lots of different things, they're really good at organic pieces, and that will translate well to paid social, but you've kind of touched on that and we've not really dug into that in detail. That could be a whole other session in itself. But what are the kind of key things you've learned from your Facebook advertising? You know, you talked about don't spend money on things that aren't working if you've tested them. Like what other kind of key pieces of advice would you give to somebody who's maybe thinking about dabbling um with Facebook ads?

SPEAKER_01 30:30

I would say being true, completely truthful, running through Chat GPT is a good thing. Now, I yeah, I would say just to make sure, like some things that I've looked at, because definitely don't follow all of its advice. I think we all see a lot of like the AI posters out there now. So that's something we don't do because they're just they're so generic. Um, and look, I get it, I get why people do it. But again, this is coming from someone who loves Canva. I'm just like, just spend that extra time tweaking that. Um, use your real images, use your children. That's again what parents want to see. It's like AI is so recognizable these days, but in terms of the back side of things, like making sure that your copy works, again, make sure it's your own voice. Like my chat GPT knows our voice at this stage, so you still have to edit all those things, and just make sure probably the best thing is to look at your audience and make sure it's refined again because our communities are quite small, our audience is always really, really uh narrow, but that's okay for us because we're not looking to reach 10,000 people, we're looking to reach those 3,000 people who are in that community, and just making sure that they see our ad over and over again, and that they like that will bring them to us. So, audience, I think, is the biggest learning for me is not to just blast out everyone.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Yeah, I think audiences are super important. I think we sometimes underestimate the importance of getting that right because if you if you get it wrong, you're spending a lot of money, you're saturating audiences potentially, and then also your frequency of your ad is higher, like you know, as a potential outcome of that. So it's just about okay, well, what kind of quality over quantity do we want to go for here? Because I would rather advertise, like you're saying, to a smaller group of people that are actually within that community and are more likely to book rather than going really broad with my audience and maybe getting two or three bookings because it's not as relevant to that kind of broader audience. So that's a really, really, really um piece of advice.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

And also also being a bit more creative, sorry to jump across, but being a bit more creative with it is something that we've tried to do as well. It's like not just like go for that trendy thing that's happening at the moment, or like for us, the GAA in Ireland is a huge thing. Um, our foot our sports, but if you can kind of come like during September, we or sorry, what time of year is it? Like when when the season ends, it's like right, well, why don't you do an ad like where like hang up the football boots and put on the dancing shoes? All right, so getting like a little bit more creative and seeing what works for you and like go a little bit tongue in cheek as well.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

There's no harm in that. 100%. I mean, we do so many different ads at class for kids, and not just like from a paid perspective, but for organic socials as well. And some of the ideas that I come to the team with, um, there's one that we worked on for Easter recently, and I was like, look, I can see us all as eggs in a box for Easter eggs, like that type of thing. And you do get that kind of like, right? What kind of idea are we going with here? But I'm like, we need to do something completely different because we don't want to just do a regular youth class for kids for Easter. That's boring. Like, let's really stop some rolling and being like, okay, what are these guys up to now? And actually, it's worked and performed really well, like from a both a paid and organic perspective. So I absolutely agree with that kind of tongue-in-cheek, standing out, working with seasonal trends that are happening. So, you know, you're saying hang up the football boots, try on the dancer shoes, really, really key things. Um, and also, you know, what's trending across cinema, theatre, all of those things, and how can that relate to you? So, some really, really, really good pieces of advice there, Amy. And I'm sure um our listeners and watchers will be able to take away um a lot from what you've advised in the social and paid social space. And then the kind of final thing I want to touch on is um you know, how did level up help you shape your business to be more sort of profitable, something that you could scale, but also that must have involved you stepping back in some

Pricing For Profit Without Resentment

SPEAKER_00 34:14

way. So, talk to me a little bit about what that looked like.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

I think Louise, the dance business coach, was phenomenal in this aspect of things, and Libby as well. Libby was really, really good in terms of profitability. We spoke a lot about that, and that I'm not gonna lie, that was a tough session with Libby because you kind of you really have to take a look at your finances, and she made she made me do a lot of work on that, and we we were pricing too low, was the kind of what the old dance concepts was doing. And I was I ended up struggling then, and I ended up not having enough money in my account. And then what happens is you start resenting it because you're putting all of this hours into it, and so much work and so much love, and you're not seeing anything, and then like you're kind of thinking, okay, yeah, but it's for the kids, it's for this, it's for that, it's for that. But it also has to be for you, and it has to work because it is your baby, and like we it's it's still a job, it's still work. So, and when you are putting all that into it, like you should be getting stuff out of it for yourself. So, Libby, maybe see that, and just to be like to look at the hours that you're putting into something and then put down how much you would pay yourself, and like oftentimes dance teachers will find that they're actually underpaying themselves hugely, and that it mightn't be worth it, which was the scary part of it. But then actually, when you look at the other side of it, is it is worth it, but your time is worth it, so price yourself accordingly. And then there might be some aspects of the business that mightn't be worth it at all. Like, I know for some places they're they do uniform and t-shirts and they're they're just charging them a little bit too low, and then you end up losing money because of it. Like, you shouldn't be, you shouldn't be losing out, like you shouldn't be putting your own money into these things that like again if you value them, if you value them correctly and you can and parents can see the value, the pricing won't matter. So, like we are still we do still price ourselves below market value. That's just because it's what about because we're community and rural, rural Ireland, we do tend to like the we just we like we get cheaper rent rates and there's different things there, so we are able to price slightly below, but we are still above what we used to be, and it's not being afraid to do the price increases. So that's where I think Louise came into things, and just giving like I think Louise is the base with the Dance Business Academy is yourself and having that belief and that mindset, so being able to have a shift in your mindset, which is like stepping out of dance con or dance concepts teacher to dance concepts owner, um, is the is the biggest thing, and that will like once you have that, everything else will make a little bit more sense to you. So, in terms of in terms of pricing, it was like, well, right, if we're able to take this in this much in, we're going to be able to expand more. So now, as I said, we're hiring someone for social media which and marketing, which is going to help us reach so many more children across Ireland, which again comes back to our why. So if I'm able to step out of the teaching side of things and step out of the social media, I'm going to be able to step above that again and look for more teachers and look for more locations. But that all has to kind of come from the mindset and making sure that you are the business is in profit. Because if it's not in profit, you won't be able to do anything. You'll just be stressed about money.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

And I think it's sometimes hard for you know people who may be listening to this and they haven't quite reached that realization or that stage of okay, I'm a business owner first. That kind of profit first thinking can be a very hard mentality to get into because you know, probably, and I think most people will feel this talking money kind of feels a bit crude, like that kind of thing. You're a bit like, oh, like I don't know how to talk about money. It doesn't feel right. Like, you know, like you say, we are doing this for the kids, so how do I get into that? So, you know, what's your kind of advice to get into that mindset and what are the benefits once you do adopt that profit first thinking? And not for you know, corporate greed or anything like that, but actually I'm going to be able to scale this across Ireland and reach more rural communities or whatever the person who's listening to this or watching it's mission is how does that profit first thinking sort of mentality support you know the business goals and the business vision?

SPEAKER_01 38:37

I think you have to take a step back and first and give you a little bit of self-care, honestly. It's and that can start with like a walk, a half-hour walk, or like a face mask. But when you're in that in the weeds and you're so so stressed, like and especially then like when money comes into it, it's like we've all been there. Like, especially like COVID knocked, I would say, I would say 95% of dance schools. It's it completely tore us down. And unfortunately, we didn't get we weren't getting funding and stuff. So we've all been there. So it's actually being able to take a step back yourself first and getting and meditating, yoga, something that's going to take you out of the fight or flight, and then just sitting down with your accounts and being realistic with it and seeing what you need to charge. And then it is it's scary, it's super scary doing that first message. Like I think with within the dance business academy, I'd say every every week there's another teacher, a new teacher being like, How do I say it's a parent? Which is like, it's so scary that first time you do it, and you will lose people, like that's a guarantee, because it's if you were charging eight euro an hour and you suddenly have to go to 10 euro an hour because you're going to you you don't have the money at the at the end of the way, end of the month to pay rent, you're going to lose people, but you will gain people too. And that was surprising to me is that when once I started valuing our time, parents did too, and they they commit more as well. Like once they once they see right, well, we have to like that was a surprising one as well. Like, right, it's it's a bit of a more commitment. So they're coming to class every single week, and that the children then are gaining more from that too. And then you're able to give back so much more to the kids because yeah, one number one, you're not stressed, and number two, there's a little bit more money in the bank to be able to do the movie nights or to exact go into the cinema.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Yeah. It's about how you reinvest the money, it's not as if you're just doing it so that you know you've got all this extra profit. It's actually, well, okay, well, I can now go to this new community or I can do this fun event that I was thinking of for the kids. So it's just about, you know, not that you have to justify yourself to parents about price increases by any means, but there are those things that you're saying, well, we're reinvesting into the business, like that type of thing. So what would your advice be to somebody who's maybe sort of teetering on, okay, well, do I increase my prices? Do I not? It sounds, you know, you're kind of pro that decision if you've got the, you know, if you're undercharging, you've you need, you know, you've got the value there to be able to charge more. What's your piece of advice and how to communicate that? Is it uh blank up from we're increasing our prices, or you know, do did you go down a route of any form of explanation? What's your kind of piece of advice around it?

SPEAKER_01 41:16

One thing that we've well, we're all used to these days is the price of the cost of living. So I I think nowadays that's what we're doing. I think originally it was just to well, actually, there's an example recently we we only relooked some, I think years after level up, we're still learning, and like you're always learning. But uh, we realized that our Tots and Tutu's classes weren't actually profitable in some locations, but they love them, the children love them. We were charging less because they were 50 minutes long instead of an hour, but they weren't at the ripe at the correct price, so we had to end up increasing, I think, something like 30-40 cents a class. But we explained that to parents. We just said, like, we if we want to keep these classes going, we have to do this. And then once the parents see that, because it was true, and it wasn't like, okay, no, we actually we can't, we we want to do this because we want a little bit more money. It was that like we can't pay the teachers, we can't pay the rent, so we're gonna have to do it. And we didn't lose one parent, they all understood. So if you I wouldn't overexplain yourself, like one thing that we we do now is every single year it increases because the cost of living is increasing, and parents aren't shocked at that because they're paying more for their milk in the supermarkets, yeah. So you can't you can't be charging or something.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Yeah, you're right. Like you we're paying like I can't go into a food shop now for the three of us for like I always try and get it below like £100 a week, but it's really, really hard to do that. And I'm like, well, hold on a minute, a year ago I was only paying £80, but now I'm paying £20, and it doesn't matter how frivolous I am with my nectar card or whatever it is, that's the cost. So there is that kind of expectation now that just in order for businesses to survive, in order for us to keep our kids in these things, it's just part of the process of business. You know, if there's value and your child is getting something out of this class and you can see that growth, that confidence in them, well, I would rather invest in that than spending, you know, an extra two pounds on a packet of biscuits. Do you get what I mean? So it's like where are the the the trade-offs and actually what do you want to invest your money in as a parent? And I think that that is totally, you know, the right way to think of it is not over justifying yourself, but actually just being transparent in some cases and also just realizing that there is kind of that expectation.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

Yeah, and like your so no, I was just gonna say that your costs are everyone's costs are going up as well. Insurance is increasing, teachers' wages are increasing. It's like and if like at the end of the day, there'll be no money to run the business if you don't increase your prices as well and in line with everything else.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Yeah. And um, just very quickly, just to kind of wrap this side of the session up, how does somebody go about looking at, okay, well, you know, they might not have ever done this before, they might be in still in very early stages of business. What are the key kind of things that you would advise to look at to make sure A Your pro your classes are profitable, and then how do you go about costing stuff? I mean, it might be basic in terms of a break-even point, but what's your kind of advice for somebody to go and look at their finances today to say which of my classes are profitable? And for those that aren't, what do I need to do? How do I go about you know a price increase? What would you advise people?

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Um, I love Google Sheets, I love Icel and everything like that. So open open one up and just make sure you're putting in every single one of your costs. I think before Class for Kids and before my session with Libby, I was like, this is my income. And then it's like, okay, this is the teacher's pay and this is the assistance pay and this is the hall rental pay. But what about everything else that's coming along with that too? So make sure you know like what percentage, like even like the class for kids fees, just make sure you have all of that stuff in, have your insurance in there, your Spotify, every single little cost it needs to go into it because you you could end up just lying to yourself and thinking, okay, yeah, this looks good. Um, and then just keeping on top of that too, and seeing the classes, like not being afraid to like this was a hard one for us as well. It's not being afraid to admit when like it's just not working. And it could be for so many circumstances, you could just have the wrong day of the week and there could be another activity on. So when you have those figures in front of you, you're able to make better decisions for that, and then you'll be able to see, right? It's only might only you might be thinking I have to increase my classes by two euro, but it might only be 50 50 cents for it to make a huge, huge difference to you. So just put them down and don't be afraid to do it. It like it might hurt, but it's it's for your benefit in the long run.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Yeah.

Class Management Software That Scales

SPEAKER_00 45:38

And um, how has Class for Kids sort of helped with these types of things? You know, you've talked about being able to track where people came from when they're booking classes, you've talked about getting time back with class for kids, you've also talked about you know being able to use it for your finances. What are the kind of things that, you know, not necessarily just class for kids, but having a booking software, how does that support all of the steps that you've talked about as well?

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Oh, I I like we wouldn't be able to do what we've done without class for kids. Like it's I think when we when I started, it was Excel sheets upon Excel sheets of registers. And now like we don't have to be in class, I don't have to be in class every week to see who's attending class. I can just log on to the system. I I use the financial dashboard every single Monday, and it's not just as much to see as like what came in, but it's did we get it from workshops? Did we get it from bookings? Is it got is it from subscriptions? Being able to being able to get these subscriptions every single month has helped. I think we have 60% of parents on subscriptions now, which is so good for us in business planning as well. We know exactly what's coming in every single week, but also being able to have the terminally payments, having both options for parents is brilliant too. But like I don't think I could actually count the amount of hours that it has saved us on admin time. I'm not just saying that, like it really has it like we're definitely Jimmy. So I know it's oh no, you're not no, no, but it's the it's the location thing for us, like we are able to put in all of our locations now, like with with other with other software platforms. Like I know that we can't, it doesn't work, it only works for one location. So for us, that has been huge, and it's so easy for us to just set up. Like if I if we get a new location, I have it set up in 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of things that are really quick and being able to filter by venue or location to figure out okay, what financials am I looking at for such and such location, or been able to add it? Or um, one of the ones that we recently had in a review was a render rerun and auto-enroll feature. So being able to just like clone your term, get the new classes up, and then within it is literally minutes if you know your dates and then that ability to be able to just invite parents to book back on, it kind of really helps with that customer retention side of things after a term ends, or you know, even for like if you're doing camps and stuff like that as well. It's just really important to try and retain retain that interest and get people booking in as soon as possible. And then from a parent side of things, you know, what do your parents think of class for kids? Do they find that easy to book? Have you had sort of any feedback in that perspective?

SPEAKER_01 48:07

Yeah, they they love it. It's uh it's just it's so handy for them, like being able to just have their like for booking onto camps. And for us, like we just send them the link and it's it's done, like we have it integrated into our website. So anytime we get a query, it's like just go to just here's the link, and like you have the terms and conditions, you have the like you want to book them, or and plus then we're able to book them onto a camp. If they say, right, well, we actually want to do that, we're like, you don't worry about anything, we'll send you the invoice. Like that's really easy. And like setting sometimes we get the whole like, oh, I don't want to like, or they they'll see, they'll use the line, like, I'm having trouble setting it up. And I'm like, Well, have you actually tried? Because it's like two minutes. So we'll just say, like, oh, like, and we do, we we use the system, we have to have everyone in the system because for insurance purposes, having the emergency contact info is perfect. So once you mention that to parents, they're like, Oh, yeah, no problem. And then like they're coming back to you and they're like, Yeah, that was absolutely fine.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

I'm just like, Yeah, there's that kind of you know, we can be technical, so like, oh, how much time is this really going to take me? And parents are busy, like, let's let's face it, you know, they are. Um, so being able to be like, it is two minutes, and that kind of benefit-led thing of parent data and the parent-led booking journey, that's like security for not only the club, but it's for the parents' peace of mind that you've got medical conditions noted, emergency contact details, photo permissions, all of those things built in, and that comes from the parent. So your teachers and your your coaches have the confidence to say, right, that's actually the parent that's input all of that information, and I have everything that I need at my fingertips. And for the parent, it's okay, I know that you know my child's going to be safe because I've got all of the information that I wanted to get across, nothing's been missed. And then they're obviously able to go into their dashboard and see those things as well. And I think one of the things that's really good about class for kids is that kind of branded booking page as well, that you're able to, you know, upload your logo, get your colours in there, like you know, that that type of thing as well can be really helpful just for that consistency and and tone of voice as well. Um so for anybody looking to make their classes more profitable, to step back from their business, to wrap up um this podcast, what would your your advice be?

SPEAKER_01 50:08

My number one advice is to do the hard work and look at the numbers because that's that's the baseline. If you're not profitable, you're gonna resent it. So do the hard work for future you. Then it would be to and I actually didn't like the advice when Libby gave it to me, but I would I agree with her now. It's just single profitable and cut it out. Like if uniforms aren't profitable for you, do cut it out. And we did for a while, but we brought it back with a more profit with a profit mindset in in there instead. When it comes to showcases as well, definitely kind of you should be making a profit on your shows because you put in 30, 40 hours like easily, like over 100 hours, I would say, in total. So you should be getting paid for that. Pay yourself is definitely a piece of advice. Um, what else? Have that confidence in yourself to take the take the steps to do it. Like it is difficult. It's probably again, as you said, money is a hard one. Money is tough, I think, for a lot of people to talk about. Um, I always say it's a bit of an irishness in it, but it sounds like it might be it might be there with you guys too. But it is yeah, like it's a it's a difficult one, and people don't like to do it. But at the end of the day, we all need the money to live as well. So um it is scary, but definitely just take that step. And if you lose people, you lose people. It's it's gonna happen. That's what happens with business, but you will gain valuable customers then who will also value you too. So that's that's really important. You don't want the customers who are going to be complaining about every single thing, which is hard to hear, but it is,

Final Advice And Farewell

SPEAKER_01 51:47

it is.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

Um, so thank you so much, Amy, for coming on the podcast and chatting about your level up experience and sharing some really, really, really helpful pieces of advice that I know that people will be able to take away um in action things. It's been great to have you on the podcast, and I'm sure we'll be catching up again very soon. So thank you very much, Amy.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

And thank you for having me. It's been great.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

It's lovely to look back on things. Thanks so much, Amy. See you soon.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

See you soon. Bye.