EP50: How To Grow A Performing Arts School Without Burning Out

Fifty episodes in, we’re celebrating and getting practical about what it takes to grow a performing arts school in 2026 without losing your weekends, your margins, or your mind. 

Caitlin sits down with Joe Greenslade, aka The Arts Business Coach, who’s lived the full journey: performer, teacher, school owner who scaled from zero to 500 students, and now coach to performing arts and after school club owners across the UK.  

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Transcript

Fifty Episodes And A Flashback

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Four years ago? Mm-hmm. Something momentous happened in the world. Okay. See when we started the podcast. Yes. How many uh um what percentage of the presenters was I? Fifty percent. And what percentage were you?

SPEAKER_04 0:14

After today, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Well that's cheek, and it's also just ruined my whole shtick. You know why I'm going on about fifty? I'm not fifty. Nearly fifty, but I'm not fifty yet.

SPEAKER_04 0:25

I have a feeling of what it could be, but I think we should tell the viewers and the listeners.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

We are celebrating our fiftieth episode, so Happy 50th episode! That was a good transition, wasn't it? We had to kinda we had to do that quite a bit crazy.

SPEAKER_04 0:48

I know my heart is like still racing.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Yeah, I've taken my glasses off. I should have had them on initially to protect myself. I know. That was quite violent. The office shook. Yeah, yeah, um, and it's everywhere.

SPEAKER_04 1:00

It's like you can't see it. It's even in the lights up there. Yeah, we're gonna have to do some health and safety speed to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

I'll take 50 episodes to clean this place up. 50 episodes, though, that's pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_04 1:10

I know. I can't believe we've made it that far together.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

I know I watched the other day the oh wow, thanks for that. You've been dragging me the whole way. I watched the um intro video we made.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

The what is in like our announcement?

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Our announcement video.

SPEAKER_04 1:27

And we should try and flash back. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Well we can we can show it now. Excited about the podcast launched a bit. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

I need to do the podcast launched. We change our life.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Yeah, looking forward to it. And that was that was how we launched the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 2:02

Yeah, we we both look very different.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Did watch them think I look different, but yes, it's been um 50, 58 glorious episodes.

SPEAKER_04 2:08

It has, and we've we've had so many wonderful uh guests on the podcast. You know, Louise Bruff was our first ever. She's been on twice as well. Yep. Um we've had Janie from JSTAR's Academy, we've had Lisa from TPA and Performance Academy, we've had Tots United in twice, like Libby Langley, like so many different people from across this industry on this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

And across the UK, we've been up and down, we've brought it on on the road to the event. To events or events that we've hosted, you've hosted. Yep, it's um it's actually become something a lot bigger than we Well, we we hoped it'd be big. They're showing the we thought we'd be in Hollywood by now. I know. I didn't have a bit of Hollywood listening. You know where we are.

SPEAKER_04 2:46

I don't know where we are, because you're all doing podcasts out there, so that would be they just haven't witnessed our incredible talent and our incredible Noah Um what's the words? Like um camaraderie? Yeah, camaraderie. No, it's more like our uh chemistry.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Chemistry, that's it. Chemistry. Um it's in Hollywood, they've got plenty of actors. This is a really bad segue, but we're gonna go with.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

I don't even I'm sorry, I don't know what he's gonna say.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Plenty of actors, and although this is our 50th episode, it's not all just about a celebration because we do have an episode and we've got a great interview with somebody that we've been on their podcast. We have been on their podcast. Caitlin was on um the podcast, it's the Arts Coach Podcast.

SPEAKER_04 3:30

Um I think it was maybe about last August, September time. I think it's went down.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

And we said, well, Caitlin said to him at the time, Joe Greenslade, you'll need to come up and do the podcast with us. So And he did. He did, and Caitlin interviewed him. It was not us.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

Um we thought, you know what, you go and interview Joe.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

We're old now, we're 50 year old. It's time we pass on the range to some other folk at some time, didn't we? Um Yes, we did. That's exactly how I sound. That's exactly well. That was trying to do an impression of Rebecca, to be honest. But yes, Hollywood, um Joe could maybe um advise us on how to get into Hollywood with his arts.

SPEAKER_04 4:06

I mean it's asking quite a lot of you, Joel, if you're watching or listening to this, but we believe that you can do it for us.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

And if it only has to be one of us, that's fine. We know who it'll be. Well, listen, that we shall celebrate a little bit end of this, but shall we go to Joe Greenslade? I think we should, yeah. Caitlin for the 50th episode of In the Club.

SPEAKER_05 4:23

Enjoy!

Meet Joe Greenslade’s Journey

SPEAKER_05 4:24

We are here with Joe, the arts business coach. Hi Joe, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Yeah, I'm good, thank you. How are you?

SPEAKER_05 4:29

I'm good, yeah, good. You're up in Glasgow. It's actually sunny for once, so you should be honoured because it wasn't last year.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

The rarity.

SPEAKER_05 4:35

No, well, no. But it's sunny today. So and you're in an office, so there we go.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yeah, thank you for having me, honestly.

SPEAKER_05 4:41

No, it's really great to have you. So um, this isn't my not know. I actually came on your podcast last year. I did this last summer, down in London. Yeah, um, so now you're coming on us, which is so exciting.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Yeah, it's lovely. Yeah, it's really nice to be here. My first time in Glasgow, and yeah, I've been pleasantly surprised. It's lovely.

SPEAKER_05 4:58

Nice, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you've got the best of it today if it's in the sun. So everything always looks nicer in the sun. But yeah, have you been to Scotland before?

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Uh yeah, I've been to um Edinburgh, the fringe. Nice. And I went there on a stag day as well. So two.

SPEAKER_05 5:13

Two separate occasions, otherwise, that would be a very cultured studio.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

So today is very different to the last time I I visited Scotland. But yeah, I got the train up yesterday and uh yeah, it's great. I think me and my wife will definitely uh visit here again 100%.

SPEAKER_05 5:28

Nice, good, good. I'm glad you're having a good time so far. Um, so I suppose just if you could maybe uh tell us a little bit about yourself, about your journey, how you got to where you are now, that kind of thing, just for our listeners.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Yeah, no problem at all. So, yeah, I um used to be an actor back in the day, and I used to teach drama, and then I went from teaching drama to running my own uh performing art schools, which I started with uh zero students and then built those up from zero to five hundred students. Yep, and then I sold those businesses, and then I went on to work for Stagecoach, which I'm assuming most people have heard of. Um, and now I coach um performing arts and after school club owners on how to basically grow and uh manage their business. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:18

And so you've really kind of done everything within the performing arts space.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:23

Yeah, the acting and then the kind of backstage teaching, all of that. So exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Was there kind of a moment, I suppose, where you were like, This is what I want to do?

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Yeah, I think so. I you know, I've I've been doing it for so long. I was, you know, running the schools for I think it, I think I've been doing it for like 17 years now, and I was like, what feels like the next natural step? And I sort of started doing it when I was at stagecoach, you know, in a way, you know, influencing and coaching others to, you know, to do it. And yeah, it just felt like the natural the next natural step, I suppose, really. And you know, I love I love coaching and I I love you know teaching people and I love the industry as well. Like, you know, I love performing arts, I've been doing it since I was seven years old. I used to go to drama school when I was seven, and I loved it, and I know the benefits of it. So, you know, if I can help others to give you know that to thousands of children all over the country, then yeah, that's that's my my mission, basically.

SPEAKER_05 7:20

Yeah, no, I think it's such a lovely industry, it's just so supportive, and not even with the kind of actually performing, but like improving confidence in young children and stuff. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

You know, it's it's uh you know, for me it's it's a non-negotiable, I just think it's such a uh an important thing, and I think every child needs it, you know, especially you know, these days where everything is all online and you want to go into a classroom and put your phones down and learn how to sing or dance or act is just the best, and just moving about as well, exactly healthy and fit, you know, all those things. Yeah, there's so many benefits, and you know, um, I'll never stop loving performing arts, basically.

SPEAKER_05 8:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So over that that is kind of 17 years, I suppose, that um that you've been teaching within the space. How have you kind of noticed the industry change or like um kind of teaching change?

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Well, I don't know if teaching has changed to be honest with you. I feel like a good lesson now is still a good lesson then is still a good lesson now. But the industry is in like from a business owner's perspective has definitely changed because um you know it it's it's just got very techie recently, and you know, AI and you know, I've had to learn, I've had to really upskill what I know about the last year, and it's quick, so quick it's forever changing really, really quickly. So, yeah, I feel like from a business owner's perspective, there's a lot of technical tools that we can use now to make the customer journey better.

SPEAKER_05 8:52

Yeah, yeah, I suppose that kind of mirrors a lot of other industries as well. Yeah, definitely. Um, not just ours. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Marketing Habits That Drive Growth

SPEAKER_05 9:00

So oh, brilliant. Um, so I suppose obviously you kind of work with a lot of different schools. What would you say is like a common theme between schools that um that grow the fastest, I suppose, or not necessarily the fastest, but maybe have the strongest foundations for growth. What have you kind of seen?

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Um, that's a good question. I feel like those that are consistently growing just understand the importance of marketing. Yeah. And you just can't ignore it, you know. And a lot of us, I think a lot of people come to me, I think they want, you know, quick answers, and there's no quick answer. Yeah. You know, there's not a pool of students hiding, you know, for me to go, here they are. You know, it's a it you've got to put the effort into marketing, unfortunately, and you've got to find a way, I think, uh of of to enjoy it. Um, and those school owners that that get that and put the time and the effort and the money in, yeah, are just you know are flying.

SPEAKER_05 9:54

Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's so, so important because it is the you could be the best school ever, but then if you're not telling other people how great you are, then people aren't gonna know to come. Exactly. So it's building that hype, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Yeah, definitely. And also, you know, those that uh for me another common trend would be people that are um willing to adopt and change and learn new skills. I think you know, some people are still uh stuck in the old ways a little bit and not willing to embrace all the amazing new things. I mean, look, we're doing a podcast here today, you know, it podcasts are quite new and current, and you know, you've got to embrace what's happening in that marketing world, otherwise you're gonna be you know left behind. I think.

SPEAKER_05 10:37

And I suppose as well, and I think we spoke about this a bit last year when I was on on your podcast, but kind of just mirroring what other places are doing as well. Like because at the end of the day, it's a business you're offering a service, a good. So it's like what are other other businesses, other industries doing, and it's making sure like for example, even if just paying on your phone or that kind of thing, definitely it just mirrors what other places are doing. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

You've got to keep your eyes to ears to the ground. That's the word I think. Yeah. Um yeah, and be aware of you know what other people are doing successfully and try and adopt uh adopt that to your own business, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:10

Yeah. Okay, and then just kind of on that growth point, do you think that there's a point where actually growth can then kind of like create problems? So, like what are maybe some of the biggest mistakes you kind of see around that?

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Um yeah, I feel like uh you know, people that grow and take on a lot more students, that's gonna mean a lot more work, right? You know, if you grow take on an extra hundred kids, that's uh another hundred students, sorry, that's gonna mean more work for you and your team. And you know, you've got to have the systems or the staff in place to be able to handle that because there's going to be, you know, more not necessarily complaints, but more things that you've got to deal with. So, you know, if you are going to grow, my suggestion would be make sure your house is in order first and that your systems are correct and your staff are happy and all those sorts of things before you go on to the next level, otherwise, you're gonna burn out. And it happened, it happened to me when I was growing, and I went from 100 to 200 to 300 students, and I was doing it all by myself, no systems, everything was coming through me, didn't employ admin or social media or you know, and I burnt out. So you've got to uh have the right things in place to take on all those new students.

SPEAKER_05 12:24

Yeah, and I suppose it's difficult because obviously, like this like your business is like your baby in a way, like you've built that from the ground up, and then where it's it can get to the point where it can go to the next step of growth, but it's it's having I suppose the courage to take that step back and being like where definitely can I delegate where can these foundations and it's scary, you know, it really is.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

And honestly, I don't know the right exactly the right words to say to to convince somebody to do it. I think you've just got to maybe take that leap of faith and do it in a really small, controlled way, and just remember that if it doesn't work out, it's okay. You can go back and you can try something new. You know, I mean, I've got I've chosen the wrong systems, I've chosen the wrong staff a million times before. So if it doesn't work out, it's okay. You can try something else.

SPEAKER_05 13:11

I think it's yeah, knowing that like having to take that step back doesn't always mean it's a step back, it just means oh it's refocusing, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

Exactly. You know, you've got to try new things until you find what what works well for you and your business.

SPEAKER_05 13:22

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. Um, so I suppose like from your experience, what's maybe um the first thing owners should focus on if they want to grow their enrollment? So, like, you know, you were talking that you went from zero to five hundred students, that's obviously there was a whole journey. Sure. What would you maybe advise um to performing arts schools?

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Someone looking to do that, the same thing. Um you need a plan. Yeah. Um, you know, don't just uh I don't just walk around the streets looking for you know for for for new students. You've got to have a plan in place, and that should involve a budget as well, I think. But you've got to sit down, put a day aside, turn your laptop off and go, right, what is the plan for marketing? Um, and for me, I just uh I I had the target in mind, I knew what I wanted at the start, and I knew the lifestyle that that would give me as well. So that's what sort of drove me to really put the effort and the time in. Um so I think you need a plan to start with, and you need a target. Yeah, and my advice to anyone listening or watching this is to, you know, if your target is to fill your school, go the next step, just try and fill it. Oh try and overfill it because what you know, 90% of the time, the amount of students that we want to turn up don't actually turn up. So we've got to, you know, I I would suggest people over I don't know what the right word is for that, you know, try and oversubs.

SPEAKER_05 14:47

Yeah, oversubscribe or really use kind of waiting lists as well. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Use some waiting list as well. Really try and um, you know, have a high target in mind, I would say. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:57

Yeah, I think that that's really I I imagine for the people listening as well, it's like really refreshing to hear because I think, especially with the world of social media, you hear so much where it's like, oh, I went from A to B, but it's actually the journey of getting there. It's not just a quick like this is how you do it. It's it's laying those foundations, it's learning as you go as well.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Yeah, definitely, you know, and it's about putting the time and effort in, you know. And if I had a pound for every no I ever got from somebody who we tried to sell our schools to, you know, I'd be a millionaire because we've got so many no's. Yeah. You know, but that's great, you know, because um the more no's you get, the more likely you're to get, yes. Yeah. So, you know, you've got to put the time and effort in and be prepared to be told no hundreds and thousands of times. Yeah. You know, that I think is is the mentality that you need to have.

SPEAKER_05 15:41

I suppose it's that um rejection is a redirection, right? Where it's like that's very good. I like that. I'm gonna steal that. There we go, there we go. Um, so kind of leaning onto

Systems First Before You Scale

SPEAKER_05 15:50

this, kind of in the you know, in the world of social media and kind of quick wins and stuff. I suppose there's a lot, um, I'm seeing definitely a lot kind of on this like life optimization, and it's like, oh, well, can you squeeze every available minute of every available day out and it's just not sustainable?

SPEAKER_03 16:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:04

So I suppose um, in terms of balance, these um school owners looking to grow, but then also it's like having that balance. What's kind of the mindset shift that you'd advise around that?

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Um, I think it's learning to say no, yeah, is a great one. You know, we've got as as as creatives, we've got so many ideas. I mean, some I'm the worst for it, you know. I have so many ideas, I want to do this, I want to do that. And before you know it, you're doing a hundred things at once. I think you've got to just take a step back and think, you know, what is it that I actually want from this business? What is one thing I can focus on now, you know, rather than 10, 15, 20 things. If you've got all these great ideas, great, but write them down and put them away somewhere so you don't forget them, but don't try and do too many things at once. And you know, I think uh the balance for me, I felt like I've got it right now because I've I've said no so many times. You know, people say, What do you don't try this direction or that? And you know, the biggest thing for me is the phone, you know, and and and learning to switch either switch off the phone, or for me, I've got a business and a personal phone. It was £20 a month, and it's still the best thing I've ever invested in. Yeah. Um, because I've got my family and my home time, and then I've got my business time as well. Yeah. So yeah, I think hopefully that answers your question.

SPEAKER_05 17:20

No, it does, and I I think it's something especially with um, I suppose like the last few years with the real chef to like we're working from home as well. It does kind of bleed, you find it bleeding into your personal life, and it's really important to have those boundaries, I suppose, to be able to have that balance.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Yeah, you definitely, and you've got to be quite strict with yourself because you don't have a boss telling you. Yeah, you are the boss. Yeah, exactly. And and you know, um, yeah, I just I just feel like you know, life is too short to be answering to a parent's request on Saturday at three o'clock in the morning. I mean, I've done it, I get it, because when you're growing, you're you think that that's the right thing to do, but that's telling parents that or you know, customers that that's okay to do that, yeah, and therefore encouraging it and encouraging the questions at odd hours and stuff. Yeah, it's healthy for you and for them. So yeah, hopefully that helps.

SPEAKER_05 18:10

No, absolutely does. Yeah, I think it's the kind of boundaries um stuff in place. So yeah, I suppose with in that kind of mindset style thing with the balance, what's maybe the biggest mindset shifts that you recommend in terms of growing the business?

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Um in terms of growing the business, the best mindset to have to get there. I think it's I get I get a lot of people coming to me, you know, with the small targets. I need 10 kids. You can lose 10 kids tomorrow, I promise you. You know, I remember I had I had one summer where I lost half of my school over the summer holidays. Yeah, you know, so it can happen like that because you've got a group of friends, and then maybe there's a complaint or you've put the prices up or whatever. So I think it's whatever your target is, just double it. Why not? What's the worst you could happen? You're gonna end up with more students, you know, which means more more money and more, but you know, to invest back into your business and for cash flow and all those sorts of things. So I think uh having a bigger target definitely helps, and um you've got to want to do it, right? Otherwise, you know, people growth, growth, growth. But if you don't want it, you know, what why are you doing? I suppose it's the why. Yeah, you know, are you doing it because you want, you know, a bigger car or you want to invest more money back into your business? But I think you should find the why first, you know, what is it why are you doing this? Yeah, you know. So for me, as I said before, it was it was a financial thing, and I knew that if I got say a hundred more students, that would give me an extra, I don't know, 20, 30 grand a year that I could use for holidays or family stuff or for reinvesting back into the business.

SPEAKER_05 19:55

So um, yeah, I th I think that it's that like why is the kind of guiding star, I suppose. And that doesn't check because I think I think as well, sometimes if you approach it where it's like, I want this for this, yeah, like the parameters can just keep changing. Whereas if it's a like, you know, oh, I want more balance or I want to be able to invest that time back into that money back into my business or into like my family time and have that protected time and and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Definitely, definitely. And also, as well, slightly well, I hope hopefully on the same subject. I think it all but it all boils down to the numbers for me. And whenever I meet up with my clients, it's all about making sure it m makes sense on paper and going back to the numbers. So, whatever plan for growth you have, please sit down before you do it and do a cash flow or do a profit and loss. You know, there's uh templates available online.

SPEAKER_05 20:45

I don't know if you guys have yeah, we've got quite a few um like customer lifetime value calculators and stuff and profit and loss, which we can put in the show notes as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Yeah, and please, you know, start with that because that will tell you what you're planning on, what what it will give you at the end of the day. Yeah. And what you might find is if you don't do that first. You know, I've had customers that have done shows and you know they haven't made any profit out of it because they've done the calculate, they've done that bit wrong at the start, or they didn't do it at the start. So always start with any growth plans with a cash flow or profit and loss. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, it's really not fun doing those things. No, no.

SPEAKER_05 21:20

It's when you're just like, I wanted to teach performing arts, I don't want to be an accountant.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

No, I know, it's so boring. I hate it, but you know, you've got to do it.

SPEAKER_05 21:28

Yeah, yeah. It's that working with the actual numbers rather than just kind of guesstimating. Yeah. Um, because that then you can't set clear targets if you're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Exactly,

Targets Boundaries And Knowing Your Why

SPEAKER_01 21:36

exactly.

SPEAKER_05 21:36

Um, so I suppose just on that where we were talking about growth, and you you were talking about how you know you have a target of 10 pupils, you can lose 10 students in a day, or like you could lose half of your school over a summer holiday. Sure. Um, so I suppose that and this is where we we kind of get a lot of questions around this in the having that growth on an enrollment on one side and then the retention on the other. How would you maybe advise that you approach both of those things?

SPEAKER_01 22:02

Um, well, you definitely can't forget about retention. You know, I think you need um to focus as much on retention as you do recruitment because I think it's like seven times more expensive or something like that to recruit a new student. And that is exactly the the the mistake I made when I first started growing from zero to a hundred students. My focus was so heavily on you know marketing and sales that I forgot my current students. And I was like and they were just leaving and I was like why are they leaving? And they're like, well you've forgotten us. You know your focus is always on the new students and the growth and you know you're forgetting we're already here you know we're we're paying money and investing in you. So I you know I think school owners you know when they are running their business you need to put that time aside to focus on what else can we do to keep our students you know what new and exciting things and I think that's a really important one as well is that a lot of people just tend to do the same thing year in, year out and that's for me that's that that's a bit boring. Yeah. And if you're bored your parents will be bored and your students will be bored. Yeah. So you know I suppose this is your for anyone who's watching, you know, put a day aside over summer holidays is perfect uh opportunity to do it a day aside with your team and come up with new ideas on how to retain your kids next year.

SPEAKER_05 23:22

Yeah even I suppose if it's the that you can do like workshops in the summer holidays and just things like that where it's what's a bit different or um we always say as well look at like what's topical. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

So you know I I know but last year when there was wicked was out that was a big thing and it was like could you do something around that or definitely it's and it's just about sharing ideas right and a lot of successful school owners I work with they love new ideas and they embrace them they do them. Yeah you know it's about taking that idea and just running with it. And if it doesn't work it's okay. Yeah you know I'm not asking people or advising people to spend a huge amount of money on on these things because you can do them really cheap. You know I mean um there's like fancy dress days and costume dress up days as an example you know there's it doesn't cost you anything but your students love it and it's new and it's exciting and you know so yeah I suppose that's like you know when you were at school and then you got to have like a non-uniform day and then suddenly school's so exciting.

SPEAKER_05 24:16

Yeah exactly I know it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

I wish we could do a fancy dress day but you know it's um it's definitely a case of just you know again giving it time giving it the time it needs yeah yeah and I suppose this kind of leads into the the next topic I wanted to look at which is prices.

SPEAKER_05 24:34

So there's a lot about like we we hear a lot with people when we're kind of on on the ground at events and speaking with prospects and customers is there's they feel very awkward around raising prices. And I think especially at the moment with the cost of living and everything is going up.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 24:49

So I suppose how what would be your advice to people who are like looking to maybe they they probably need to increase their pricing but they're feeling really awkward about it.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

It needs to be a yearly thing.

SPEAKER_05 24:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

And that's it. Yeah. You know I feel like if you put it off for one year you're going to put off again and again and all of a sudden you've got to put your prices up by five ten pounds a month more a month and that is going to annoy people. Yeah. Whereas if you make it just part and parcel of your yearly annual thing that you put your prices up slightly you know in line with um inflation or whatever but your venue prices are going up your teachers are charging you more your subscriptions are going up so if you don't do that the only person who's going to suffer is going to be you. Yeah. So I I think we use I use this phrase a lot rip off the plaster. You know so rip off that plaster and get it done. This this August and September is the perfect time. So I'll be getting those communication letters out now about you putting your prices up and there's ways of communicating it where it doesn't sound terrible. Yeah you know you can break it down weekly you know so it's gone up by a pound a week or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_05 25:55

Yeah you know compare yourself to your competitors you know this is the reason why we're doing it you know yeah definitely like really really hammering home the the why just kind of really communicating that value um as to why you're increasing the prices.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

Yeah definitely yeah and um and you know make sure it's it's it's done every year would be my advice.

SPEAKER_05 26:14

No I think that's great advice and I think as well it doesn't because I I'm aware some people might be listening and going oh well nothing's really changing year on year but you can even just say in line with inflation in line with and new costs. Like you don't need to be exactly thinking oh well I need to justify this with like a brand new shiny thing.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Exactly you know you can guarantee that you know your gym or your phone or whatever are going to be putting their prices up every year by a little bit. So you know I feel like we should be doing the same.

SPEAKER_05 26:40

A hundred percent a hundred percent um so I suppose on on that kind of profit aspect we were talking about earlier but show season is another thing I really like to talk about. Sure. So we get a lot of uh when it kind of comes down to show season a lot of people are going like how how do I make a profit on my show or they're not necessarily even breaking even it's the same we kind of see with camps and workshops as well. But I suppose like firstly like how can a show be used maybe as a growth tool and not just a performance. Do you mean a growth tool as in like yeah your to recruit new students or a financial growth?

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Financial growth yeah well I suppose a bit both yeah yeah I mean you know shows can be incredibly profitable and most people that I work with are are seeing a profit on their shows. So yeah again it it boils down to the profit and loss um and sitting down and and figuring out um how many how much you're gonna charge and the venue you're gonna use it again that all boils down to the really boring profit and loss sheet but it can absolutely be you know be used to generate profit. I suppose some some some things that I've learnt over the years would be you know you sort of average out like two

Retention Ideas Parents Actually Feel

SPEAKER_01 27:56

two and a half tickets per parent I think or per child you know so you're not predicting that you're gonna sell you know way too many tickets. You want to be quite reserved with what you're going to um to sell also videographers and photographers and you know show brochures and show show admin fees you know there's so many different things you can do and I think you know it depends on your outgoings and what you should be charging. I see a lot of people say what should I charge per show but you know a venue in Glasgow might be different to a venue in London. So you've got to charge you know accordingly.

SPEAKER_05 28:29

Yeah definitely um and yeah so kind of on um on the back of that what's maybe that you've kind of seen like almost like a number one stress around show season where people get really oh gosh I'm overwhelmed like what do you think is maybe a number one cause of that well I I actually still do run my own schools and I've got a show in a few weeks and it's still stressful.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

You know I'm not too bad now because I've done it so many times but you know it is a stressful time because you know you're it's like it's the time of the year where everybody says like show us what you've got so you know you've got to be you know uh on point with it but I think the biggest stress with that I see is uh probably costumes yeah I'd say is a big one um bopper licenses chaperones so I think for me plan your show a year in advance and get everything organised and done six months before the show yeah I see so many last calls for chaperones and costumes and problems because they're leaving it because school owners are leaving it to the last minute so if you're about to do your show now you know start planning your next show in August get the venue get the start the chaperone process you know because it can take months for councils to you know um to get that application through or whatever it is sorry the license is um and with costumes I think there's so many different ways you can do costumes you can rent you can buy you can do your own you can do show t-shirts I think for me when I'm doing a big show and you've got hundreds of or thousands of parents coming to watch I want to keep my life easy yeah so I simplify things so parents do most of the work themselves rather than us so they go and do their costumes themselves or they go and buy their show tickets themselves we use ticket source but I know there's ticket master and all those sorts of different softwares to use but you know try and not have everything come through you parents want to self-serve they want to be able to do it themselves and the click of a button they don't want to have to wait for you to respond to them because you're on holiday on the weekend or whatever. So for the for your next show try and you know uh streamline it or try and think how can I make my life a little bit easier for next year.

SPEAKER_05 30:52

Yeah I suppose it links back exactly this very nice full circle moment there but what we were saying at the beginning yes of the episode in terms of like having those foundations yeah in place.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Yes yeah definitely yeah you need to uh constantly be thinking and I'm always asking myself sorry it's okay go for it um you know what can I do to say I'm doing something over and over again yeah how can I automate this first or delegate it yeah you know so uh you know if an inquiry is coming through you and involves you doing something every single time can I use technology to automate that whether it's you know Class for kids CRM system or Zapier or whatever it is you want to use how can I use uh tech to automate it if not can I delegate this to another member of my team because you grow you know that is just going to get more and more and more and then you're gonna burn out um and also it's a smarter way of working right you know rather than just doing the same thing over and over again the most common ones I see I think are you know people responding to parents and not having automated replies or template saved you know it's the basic things um so yeah and another great one which I know most people will have got now but just about having all the answers on your website yeah and just sending parents there. The frequently asked questions yeah it's so important you know and and also you know I know some school a lot of people say is a website worth it for me absolutely it is because it's the central hub of your business it's like without a website it's just you right or your WhatsApp or your or your social media and I don't think it can uh handle all the all the stuff that a website can but you know having things on there you know where parents can go and buy and subscribe and unsubscribe and you know have questions asked or change their classes or find out about you or you know have all of that on that hub and then when parents ask you questions you just go website website website you know and then the website does it all for you so yeah hopefully that's helpful.

SPEAKER_05 32:54

No definitely and I think I think it's a case of look of looking and going um yeah just it the website I think helps with the the growth in so many different ways because um it it gets rid of that friction I suppose like if I was looking for performing arts classes in the area for my child I might be like oh you know I'm not actually finding any of the answers I need to anything here like I'm having to go through like two year old highlights on social media to try and

Pricing And Show Season Profit

SPEAKER_05 33:20

find answer whereas it's like landing on and then it might be they go, oh well I I looked at that website you know a month ago and actually let's go in and book yeah exactly from that and it's just yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Yeah exactly yeah helps yeah so I suppose um another question just kind of it works with show and time I suppose but like say you pass show season you're at the end of your year it's August what would be maybe like the things that you'd recommend you know school owners sitting down and looking at if they were going to do a bit of a year review show review how can we improve next year how can we improve next show season what would you recommend looking at really good question so what to do over the summer period first of all give yourself a break absolutely really really important turn the phone off turn your phone off uh for at least a week or two and just you know don't respond to anyone you deserve it um so I really want to stress that absolutely um then um the things I would be looking at over the summer would be I mean we should be doing our summer marketing plan now or before now um so if you haven't done that already get that done now yep um and then for the summer you want to be planning next year's show you want to be planning your calendar so for the year ahead so what are we doing in September October November December whatever there should be something going on in your business every single month because if not parents will get bored and go elsewhere in my humble opinion. So you need to plan what you're going to do uh communicate that with your team I'd be arranging team meetings so we can organize and you know figure out what we're going to do what can we do better figure out your marketing plan for the next term yeah and what else yeah I think just you know where do you want to be at the end of next year? Do you want to double your student numbers? And one thing I've always done and I think has helped me get you know be fairly successful with what I've done over the years is share your targets with your team. Yeah because then you're you know it's otherwise you're it's just you on your own. You know I know I need 300 students but my team don't have a clue.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

But if they're on board with that and if they're incentivized or you know whatever to get the same target as you and you're all working towards it as a team.

SPEAKER_05 35:30

100%.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

So the next time you know Jessica hands a notice in the team like no we need to stop this because as a team we need to get you know 300 students because you've set a target whatever it is you want to do but I think it's really important that you uh involve your team in your plans. 100% yeah because you are a team um and yeah so those are the things I'd be doing over the summer.

SPEAKER_05 35:53

Nice okay yeah leaning on that team and and also I think it it gives a level of accountability as well. Yeah definitely it's not just in your head or in your plan planning sheet it's it's in everyone's so exactly you're all on the same same page. Yeah definitely um so you're actually our 50th episode this episode right I know big whoop woop um so I suppose just to end I thought yeah if you were to start again tomorrow kind of knowing everything that you know now what would be the first five things that you'd do? So I did that 50th I did I didn't give you 50 things so you're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

I could do 50 though um five things if I would start again what I would do differently my god that's a good question. Okay so first of all I would go sub to subscription yep so I've been doing this for 20 years and subscription is the best thing that's ever happened to this industry in my personal opinion the time that it saves on admin and all those sorts of things and you know the awkward parent conversations just I love it. Yeah um number two would be to um trust your team and yeah I just I feel like there's a lot of one man bands out there that aren't really delegating and putting their trust into other people to grow their business with them or for them. So I would do that differently I would trust people more to be able to do the job because they absolutely can and when they do it oh my god it's the best feeling ever number three oh my god you're putting me on the spot I know I'm sorry um the third thing I would do differently is I would really think about every um location that I open so before I just you know I opened the school hall is available I'll go there but you need to really do your research and you know make sure that this area is going to be right for you for potentially the next 20 30 years. Yeah. You know and that's going to involve looking in depth into demographics and you know one thing I always always do still now if I'm helping somebody open a school is just go into the high street or go into a local shopping centre or local area and speak to the parents and see is this a good place to start up a new dance or drama or singing school or whatever and you'll get a much better

Summer Planning And Final Five Tips

SPEAKER_01 38:10

idea after a day of you know speaking to the the the local the local parents number four um if I were to do if it was if I were to do it differently again yeah if you were to start again tomorrow what would be the kind of five things you'd you'd focus on um the next thing I think I would focus on would be the importance of retention. I know we discussed it earlier but you know you can't you can't grow a business without having uh you know retention in mind and I just think always coming up with new new and fun ideas is is going to really help your business and if it excites you it's gonna excite your teaching team it's gonna excite your parents so just you know throw around some ideas and you know and see what you can come up with for next year. And finally if I could do it again I'm just trying to think of like a marketing one um okay have 10 marketing strategies going on at any one time. Okay. That sounds quite intense but you know bring a friend there is a marketing strategy. You know SEO having your SEO up to date is a marketing strategy. Posting on Facebook groups every week having Facebook ads go whatever you know we can go on and on but one thing is never enough posting on socials every now and again or doing you know spending £30 on a Facebook ad once a term is not going to grow your business. You need in my opinion need 10 things going on all of the time even when you're not recruiting still have those things going on because you're gonna need it.

SPEAKER_05 39:45

No I love that that was brilliant thank you so much Joe so our if our listeners want to find you they want to learn more about your coaching they want some more nuggets of information where can they find you uh the arts business coach is the Instagram page so yeah hopefully um yeah they should they should get in touch yeah definitely thank you so much it's been great having you thanks Caitlin yeah great to have great to be here thanks guys he had a lot of travel was he did yeah ten hours I think it was from London um I think he had missed trains he had to get off at Preston then there was loads of different delays like when anything happens when we were travelling down south it's always Preston I thought you were saying I was you were going to say it was always me.

SPEAKER_04 40:24

Oh well it was always you like you were the common denominator to all of the travels I've experienced and believe you me there has been far too many in my time here has and it always happens with you but it is Preston seems to be where they just funnel everybody.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:36

Don't know what it is about that station maybe that's what we can go and look up afterwards but yeah great episode we're gonna solve that. We'll solve that as well for a 50th episode special we're gonna solve the trouble of Preston in the hundredth episode we'll have resolved it if you've never experienced uh issues at Preston station just write into us and again it's in the don't put the notes in the description

Wrap Up Listener Thanks And Invite

SPEAKER_04 40:56

with Joe lovely to have him here in the Class for Kids office lovely to return the favour of having him on our podcast when he had us in his and lots and lots of information that him and Caitlyn unpacked and he's so privileged to have arrived for the 50th podcast and didn't even know until we told him and he was like what in fact I don't think we knew until we told him and we were like what I know it was what it was uh yeah really good to have him with us.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Well I hope we do another 50 and I think we've got it in us. I think we've got it in us. I think the momentum's back now. It is we're sorry we've not been very momentous of late but you don't need to apologise these people get this for free you guys should be grateful I'm only kidding we really appreciate everybody that listens and everybody that's always listened. We know there's a number of people out there that are regular listeners that get in touch from time to time tell us when something's not gone right which we appreciate because that's what friends are for.

SPEAKER_04 41:47

It is and if you want to be on this podcast then you can either fill in the form that's in the link description below or just DM us at Class4Kidsuk on Instagram and we'd love to have you.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Indeed we would and for the 50th time we shall do this three, two one bye