Freedom For Felons Podcast
Freedom For Felons Podcast
Freedom For Felons Ep. 11 Honoring Sincere Allah w/ Reform Alliance
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Freedom For Felons Ep.11 w/ Sheba Williams, Angel Jesus and Jesse Crosson close friends of Sincere Allah w/ Reform Alliance. Highlighting the work and impact that he had on other's in the reentry community. Reflecting on his accomplishments and impact also touching on mental heath and self-care...
Freedom is a given freedom.
SPEAKER_09I gave it a hammer freedom, a freedom of freedom, I gave it a hammer freedom.
SPEAKER_05Welcome to the Freedom for Felons Podcast, Episode 11, in memory of Sincere Allah. Man, um, thank y'all for coming here. Um, you know, Sincere was dear to a lot of people's hearts. He was so passionate in the reform and re-entry and spent so much time incarcerated. Um, we just, he was definitely gonna be a guest on the Freedom for Felons podcast uh back in February. And so um we just want to take today to celebrate and highlight his life and his legacy and keep it going. And so um my name is Whitmore Merrick. I am the host of the Freedom for Felons podcast, and I got my co-host here.
SPEAKER_06What's going on, Rico Harris?
SPEAKER_05And I got a couple guests, and I want them to introduce themselves. Even though I know them, I want them to properly introduce themselves. So if you could go ahead and introduce yourself, brother. Yeah, my name is Angel.
unknownYou easy.
SPEAKER_01My name is Sheba Williams, founder and executive director of No Left Turns.
SPEAKER_02Jesse Carlson.
SPEAKER_05Um, a lot of things. Yeah, man. So everybody that's here is is is very active in the re-entry uh capacity, I would say, um, and putting in work, been putting in work for a long time, and um knows a lot about the system, but um, I want to go ahead and just get started with um what is your connection and relationship with Sincer? And um I'll go ahead and pass the mic to Angel.
SPEAKER_07Um my connection with Sincere started back in, I want to say, probably the early 2000s. Um I was basically serving time in Sussex 2. I was sentenced to life in prison. So I was already there as level four, so I had to serve 20 years at a level four before I made my way to a level three. Um Sincere happened to come in Sussex II, and that's how we first met. We crossed each other paths in that manner, you know. Um he knew a lot of guys that I knew already, so the circle was kind of small, but uh uh a lot of respect, you know. So that's how me and him connected. Um back in like 2000, I want to say probably 2003, four around that time. Um then off and on, because I was already there every time he left to go to a level three, he ended up back at Sussex Two. And the first person he'll come looking for was me, because I was already there and I already was established. So um, yeah, that's how me and Sincere first met.
SPEAKER_01So uh many titles, I guess. Um, but we were first introduced, Sincere was still incarcerated, and I was a part of a group of individuals who co-authored the Second Look bill in Virginia, which addresses extreme sentencing. Um, him, Quadrare, and JJ were incarcerated. Their partners and friend were um out here on the outside working for advocacy. Sean Winnetta, myself, um, fam, Brian Kennedy from Justice Forward, all of us worked on this bill. We took the DC version of it and went line by line and um edited it to Virginia. So January uh 14th, 2022, Sincere was released from incarceration. Probably two and and Angel. Angel did not mention that they were also pardoned on the same day. Um, but they were at the General Assembly two days later. And Sincere became a fixture in the General Assembly. Um, from there, we worked on this bill. It hasn't passed yet. Um, but he also became co-host, co-facilitator. Um, he became my partner in a lot of things. We've traveled all over the country, like in the name of justice. And honestly, he he's been the closest person to me in the past three or four years. So um he called me a mentor. Um, but yeah, we we did a lot of work and a lot of things together, family-wise, work-wise, and things like that. So it's hard to pinpoint one title, but yeah, we've been we've been locked in for about three or four years.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. I met Sincere at Buckingham Correctional Center. Um, we we knew each other in passing, but then we were both part of starting the uh shared allied management, the basically the pure sport mental health program. So it was a bunch of us came together and we were kind of the founding organizational members, and so I got to know him doing that. And so I got to see him working directly with people, I got to see him kind of setting up programming, I got to see how he had a different style than other people, how he was really good at being direct. I remember we were in the middle of a class one time, and and dude started getting like was clearly getting hyped up and was trying to like rile up a fight, and Sincer just literally went over and pushed him down and said, sit, and then kept going with the class, and it was exactly what this guy needed, and nobody else would have done that, but he had just the right energy in the right moment. And then I would I remember when he got out when he got that pardon, because I also received the pardon in August of 2021, and we were always hoping that he would make it. We always hoping the guys we knew inside would make it, and then it was the last day of the governor's term. We're like, Man, that sucks, it's not gonna happen. Then I get the call that he made it, and I just remember the first time I ran to him was actually an event for um what's the the organization of Fredericksburg, the uh Fail Safe. Failsafe. And I I walked up, I was like, Oh, it's you're you're here, like really? And it was cool because a lot of us from that program, at one point there were only two of us from that program that hadn't gotten out because we had done so much work that we basically got the recognition from the governor, and it was important to see that sometimes when you do the right thing without even expecting an outcome or a return, sometimes you get it.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_05Damn, that's that's dope, man. And what what year was that? You said 2021. I got out in 2021.
SPEAKER_02He got out in January 22.
SPEAKER_05What year did you meet him in Buckingham? 16, maybe 17? I can't remember for sure. That's dope, man. Um, so I don't know who would be most fit to answer this. Um, but I I kind of want to just shed light on his upcoming, you know, little the little bits that you may know or that he may have shared, like where where he was born, and a little bit maybe about his upcoming, if if if anybody is comfortable sharing that. Um anybody?
SPEAKER_07So that's that's to me, you know, I mean, I can answer that question in many ways. But um as as from the moment that Sincere passed away, man, a lot of things started coming out that I wasn't aware of because he never made knowledge born on that. You know, I mean he always kept it to himself. Um one of the things that I can say is that we had a rivalry going on, you know what I mean? He was from Boston, I'm from New York. Yeah, I know that rivalry, Yankees versus Boston. You know what I mean? Uh Red Sox, if it wasn't the Red Sox, it was uh uh the Giants versus, you know, uh the Patriots. So he always told me he was born in Boston. So I believe that. And he said other things. Um I know that he basically, you know what I'm saying, uh got locked up in Lynchburg. Um don't know too much about that situation, like I said, you know, but um I come to find out other things after his passing, you know. Uh he was he was that kind of guy. I mean, he ain't really like to talk too much about his upbringing and none of those things. So um unfortunate, you know, um that's how we kept it. You know, one thing about imprison, it's it's hard to talk about, you know, some of those things, you know what I mean, that that's dear to your heart, or just the upbringing part of being a man, you know, uh, we try to sort of kind of like stay in the lines of who you are today versus the young man that got incarcerated. You know, I always tell guys, a lot of us we found ourselves in prison. That's a fact. And I know I did because I went in when I was 17. So the the young man that I was then going through Rikers Island, going through my ordeals, you know, coming upstate, and then being transferred to Virginia, uh, sentenced to life, is not the same man that is sitting right in front of you today.
SPEAKER_08So, you know, um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I guess the short answer, he was born in Boston, but I know Angel wanted to tell him about his upbringing and who he told us he was. No, it's a running joke.
SPEAKER_07It's a running joke. I'm full Puerto Rican, you know. I was born in Puerto Rico, so not to say that I would embrace him any less, uh, but uh he always told me he was half Puerto Rican, and his mother was half Puerto Rican. Uh uh uh unfortunately he's not Puerto Rican. His mother, I joked her out with Chiba. And but the day that he, you know, he passed away and everything, I get a phone call from his mother. Uh he told me his mom was dead, you know what I mean? I always left it there because that's something that you don't really want to touch on.
SPEAKER_08Yeah.
SPEAKER_07You know, um, so so whatever, you know, relationship they did have, it wasn't, it wasn't what normally a son and a mother relationship is like, you know. So, you know, like I said, he's not here. I I really don't like to talk about that because I think that that would have been dear to him. So out of respect, you know, I mean, I want to I want to just keep it there, you know what I'm saying? But we can't leave our De Puerto Rico.
SPEAKER_01I was just assuming you adopted him. I thought that's what it was. We have come to adopt him.
SPEAKER_05It's it's definitely all about respect, you know. Um man. Um so you kind of touched you touched on when he was released and how he was released. Um what what do you know about his experiences incarcerated since you guys spent so much time with him? Definitely fit to answer some of that. Like, you know, just like some of the things, some of the things that you saw in in the past and that correlates with who he is and what what he represented, his legacy, if even then, because you know, we know like during time, like you can't even phantom what really is gonna be when you get outside. Like, you know what I mean? And so I guess like what are some of the traits and some of the things that you witness incarcerated with him that maybe align with where he is, or maybe even the opposite of that?
SPEAKER_02I feel like there were two different versions of Sear. Like the version I met when he was mentoring people and tutoring people and spending all his time and his energy on that is different than the guy who was still running with the nonsense like he was doing in some of the institutions. And I don't know what it was that like made him change or what flipped that switch. Maybe you know from you know, because he kept coming back to Sussex, but he really was like two different people because he was in the position where he could be at Lawrenceville and have everything and be you know running this little empire, but also be in that position where he kind of left all that alone and he was focused on helping people. So I he had the potential, just like I think everybody has that potential inside of him. I think it depended on the environment or the stresses or where he was at or what he needed at that time. But I think as he grew older, he probably transitioned more into the person he became.
SPEAKER_07So I'm gonna touch on basically what I found out in the past few months. Uh, one of those are that he was uh uh living in Boston with his grandmother, his father, his grandmother, as everybody knows, she was a senator. So she sort of had him like under her wing, so to speak. Um she passed away, but uh his father was 14 when he had him. So that tells you the story. You know, someone had to step up to the plate and take care of a young kid because you had a young man taking care of a young kid, you know, a kid taking care of a kid. Um so when I finished my 20 years at Sussex 2, I was transferred to a level three. And I went to uh Nataway. While I was in Nottaway, I became a cadre. Uh at that time, cadres have a little more seniority. You know, uh we were actually uh uh working in a receiving unit because well, within probably two years of me being there, it became a receiving unit. So basically that's when I seen uh Sincere. My psychiatrist that I used to talk to, because I was writing a program at the time, um she told me about this guy named Sincere. And that she was gonna go to Buckingham and to talk to some guys about the sandpod. And because they had started the sandpart at Nataway. So I already knew that somebody from Buckingham was gonna come to uh to uh Nataway. I didn't know who. And when I seen her, it was Sincere. So he worked at the sandpart of the psychiatrist lady, she ended up leaving Nataway. So the job became a little more different. So they wanted to close the sandpart down. So he eventually, you know what I'm saying, uh became a cadre and we were in a party together, you know. We we worked the same job, he was two cells down from me, and that's how we became really, really acquainted. You know, that's when things kind of like he I seen a different side of him. Like uh uh Jesse said, you know, um what year was that? This is 2020. This is 2020 when he came to uh Nataway. I was already there, I got there in 2018, but I was already a cadre uh because I was bilingual and I was able to speak both languages, yeah. They hired me as an uh interpreter. So um, which I learned a lot from Jesse, and he don't even know because he was doing the uh interpreter job and teaching. They used to show his videos. I'm like, who's this guy speaking Spanish? Talking about he's had Spanish. I'm like, I'm Puerto Rican, man. I know the man. How did you see that? Because they had videos at Buckingham, and those videos was going through the sandpa, and through the sandpa, they were showing them in actually the population.
SPEAKER_02I mean, so during COVID, they cut out our program in our school, there was nothing happening. So the psyched said, hey, what if we were to make some programming and show it at all the prisons? So my Spanish videos were being shown at every prison in Virginia, which is wild, because I'd be walking down the boulevard at a new spot and they'd be like, yo, you the Spanish guy? Like, yeah, yeah. I'm not the Spanish guy, but I'm the guy who did the video.
SPEAKER_07Spanish was like right on point, you know what I mean? I'm like, man, he's talking perfect Spanish. I'm I'm broke, mine's just broken. So I kind of like I said, I was eight in the room for a little while, you know. I was the interpreter, I was the interpreter, you know, and sincerely came a cadre. And every day, you know, we worked together alongside, you know, uh, I knew he had a partner. I was going off a parole because they passed the bill, you know, a juvenile bill where allowed juveniles to go for parole after 20 years. Um, I got denied parole. My first go-round in 2021, I got I got denied parole, um, but I still had my clemency in. Yeah. So that's how I came home. Six months later, after I parole, I was partnered by the governor. Um yeah, that story right there, every time I think about it, man, it's just it's it's just it is it's mind-blowing to me how it all went down, how it happened. Uh uh COVID hit in 2020, right? 1920. It's 2022. It's basically January. Now the way he gets infected with COVID. So they take all the cadres and move us all down to the gym. Um prior to that, since C I come in the park and I'm seeing he's on the top tier. He's like looking at me. I'm like, what's going on? He's like, man, I got the letter. I'm like, what letter? And he was like, uh, they taking my clemency and they're taking it to the next governor. They passing it on. So I'm looking at him, I'm like, because we both waiting, man. It's like time is of the essence. Like one or two, you know, this governor's been in the office. So I get on the phone and I'm talking to one of my brothers and all that. He's like, ah man, look, man, two guys and two got the same letter, and now they're home. Tell him to call somebody to get on top of that. I went upstairs. I'm like, look, don't give up just yet, man. Forget that letter, man. Go downstairs, get on the phone, talk to nobody got to talk to. Get on top of that. Sure enough, he does that. And two weeks later, he gets a hearing. They call him down to the building, to the council's building, and they get a hearing. So everything is moving in the right direction. Um 2022, they put us on the gym. One Monday morning, which was January 2022. January 13th, January 13th. We waited to get our tests before we go to work. So everybody's got to gas anything on the second because they don't want to catch anything with COVID. I'm standing on the line, he's in the front. And they say, See a born along. Who's that? Look. Step to the side. And they take him away. Wait, before they do that, man, he looks at me. He turns around, he looks at me. And I swear to you, I tell you no lie. I look at him, I said, you said you're part of me. And sure enough, three hours later he comes back crying. And he pardoned me, they pardon me, man. I'm like, wow, man. So now me, I'm like, okay, what about me? You know, I'm like, you know, I'm loving this that's happening for you, you know. So we end up going outside, I'm on the phone, and within 20 minutes, Angel De Hayesu will step up to the uh, they want you at the uh counselor's office. And I'm coming out the the yard rack, the rec yard, and here comes Cecilia running down the boulevard with a counselor behind. And he's like, yo, they part of me too, man. And I pushed them and dropped on my knees, man. I was already 27 years, 27 years in prison. So, you know, hope to me, it was there, but yeah, you know what I mean? It was part-fetched. Like, okay, I'm gonna go up the road. That's hope, but a lot of us know that going off the road don't necessarily mean they're gonna come home. Um so yeah, so we both got part on the same day, just a highway part uh and we were released on the 14th. And I can go into that, but I'm gonna let everybody else also. So when we got part, man, his lawyer came and picked them up. They told us that we had to find a family member, someone down in Virginia. We didn't have no idea. So my home plan was to go to Philadelphia and my brothers. His whole plan was to go to Boston. So now they want us to find someone because the governor's leaving office on the 15th. Oh, yeah. So we gotta be released on the 14th, which is on Friday. So we find the place, calling people to find me. I got an apartment, which my brother turned around and was with this email, and she was from New York, boarding a girl, and she was like, Hey man, I don't like Virginia, I'm going back to New York. So she left and left the apartment with everything. It was like a council, she was in the new and he called and was like, Look, my brother made this one to stay, and she was like, So I called her and she called the poor people, was like, that's my brother. So she laughed, man. That's how I came home, and I was sincere. I actually got an officer that was a friend of his that had already retired from prison, and he actually can't stay at her house. And she said, Of course. And I said he found someone to stay. That day that we came home, my brother came picking me up, the lawyer picked him up branded, and we met in Richmond. And then all you know, he was like, hey, look at that, I'm over here, I'm like, you're like 10 minutes away from me. He's like, Yeah, but I'm not really comfortable with it. I was like, oh my god, come on that. You know, and and that's how me and him basically just went from being in prison together to be in in an apartment together. That's a crazy the way that just uh and the whole entire time uh my girl, she lives in Fredericksburg, and she's like, Come down to Freddy's bird. I'm like, nah, nah, I'm staying here, man. So me and my brother get to you know, to get ourselves together, you know what I mean? I'm not I'm not going nowhere. Um plus everything was right there for us, you know, Richmond. Um but his plan was actually to go back to Boston. And he did that. Two weeks later he packed this stuff up, you know, all the people down in Boston, and he made his way down to Boston. When he got there, he got the area and put an anchor on his head. And was like, hey, we can't talk to the mind, we can't talk to nobody as well in these. And he thought about it, he was like, Man, I don't want to live my life like this we just saw. I'm going back to Richard. And he came right back to the apartment. And from that. Now you know we live together. You know everything he did I know about, you know, everything I think he knew, you know. We're just trying to figure it out.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05That's a blessing that he was able to come back.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, that's a you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_07Switching it up and then that's a hell of a journey. Yeah, so because he committed his crime in the genius, they didn't have no problem with sending it back.
SPEAKER_06So that was a good thing. Hearing these stories, like I said, I didn't I didn't know Sincere personally. I just knew about his work to grow and just seeing stuff online and all that. And um I just I know he was doing great work, and I just wanted to ask you guys that know him, like what was like one of his biggest like strengths you feel like as even from inside or from doing the community work and doing the uh reform work, like what do you feel like was one of his biggest strengths?
SPEAKER_07Patience. For me it's patience, and it was very that's a good one to have. One thing about Sincia that I learned and it was in prison, and I'm gonna keep this just short. So Sincilla did what no one in prison that I knew of can actually do, which was bring a senator to come into the DOC department and have a meeting with a group of guys like myself. Uh she's from the fair guys. So one day I come in from work and he tells me, hey man, I want to trust you, and I'm gonna lay this on the table. I was like, what's going on? He's like, I got a senator coming see me. I was like, yeah, whatever. He's like, I'm serious. He was like, but I don't want her to come see me by myself. So I was like, okay, what you want to do? He was like, because I trust you and everybody here knows you. Pick five guys that you feel that are worthy of being in the presence of a senator that got things going on. And I said, You want to leave that task to me? He was like, Yeah, so I picked five guys, an old library guy, you know, I picked the uh the uh church guy, you know, the guy named Word, uh he was working for the chapter, and I picked three other guys, man, you know, that I felt were worthy of having this, this, and they all agreed to it, you know. What we did not see coming was the fact that uh uh see it followed all protocols and did everything already by the book, but the warden then he didn't have no knowledge of this senator coming to see us. Anybody that knows about the DOC department, if the warden gets whipped that someone of that magnitude is coming in, uh the first thing is now uh uh who got this going and what are they doing with the other two matter of fact transfer? They'll quickly put you on a bus and send you somewhere where you know they can just get and do away with that. So um about a week later, right before the visit, the the Cam Deep, the major lieutenant captain, they snatching us all up. And uh I worked in the captain was like, Andrew, what you what you listen there? What is this caller? They want us to come down there to the uh water's office and all that like that. So C is quiet, you know, get to the office. So I sit like right across the other five guys they like chewing on their nails, like man, they go about the transfer. Um this is why I knew something special about this guy. He said, right across me. Just just make a mistake while you're talking because I'm gonna lie, that's what he was doing. So he said, Okay, why am I the last one to hear about this? Yeah. And he was like, Well, I won't do that. So I sent it to the question to all the uh high authority people, you know, and he was collected, like right on point, and the war is shooting questions. And the whole time I'm looking at him, I'm like, man, that's how we done. He executed everything to the point where the war was like, well, he looked around at that all his high captain, lieutenant, major, and everybody was like, Well, I guess we're gonna have a senator come to see us then. And I looked at him, I was like, wow, that's when I knew that this dude that I was standing in front of was somebody special. You know, because a lot of people can't do that. I would have folded, I would have been like, Look, man, she's coming, do this, you know. Nah, you know, he always was patient, man. Particularly when he came to speak. You know, you say, you know, I know you're in prison, but I don't know what you're out of here. I know since you're in prison. So that was the blessing. Sort of kind of like, you know, okay.
SPEAKER_01So I guess for me, the the biggest thing, like working alongside each other was it, it was he he's always had this thing where he would say it's hard work, not hard work. It's also hard work. But it was about the people. He he always centered the people that we work with, and like we did since he was my honorary uh co-director, he self-appointed himself in the direct service piece because he obviously started in policy, right? He answered every phone call, every JPEG message. He would get up and like handle things as far as like taking people diapers, milk, like money, putting them in hotels, like come out of pocket and do everything. And it always centered back to the people that we work with. He never could say no, and I say this all the time. I keep saying it, and that probably was to his detriment, right? Um, but he he was the the passion was palpable, like you could see it, you could feel it, and people knew, and people gravitated towards him a lot, not even checking in on what he's dealing with. And he would always set that aside and say, but I gotta do this for this group of people, I gotta do that for that group of people. So it was always genuine. It was always something where he showed up like for everybody, like, and that's something that like really took a lot because I like I do a lot, but he could like master this thing um with, oh, I gotta be in Lynchburg at two o'clock, I might gotta be back in Richmond at six o'clock, and like I gotta do an event at 10. He would always do all the things and never complain about it, um, and then be right back at it, you know. So, and it wasn't like there were times where we weren't getting paid for a lot of things. You know, we were coming up here working in the detention centers together, all of us. We weren't getting compensated for that, but he he wanted to make sure that kids weren't going down the path that he went down as a child. Because you know, he's been impacted by this since he was eight, eight years old. Um, so like, and and I know you asked Angel like his grandmother. His grandmother's longest standing African-American senator or statesperson in Massachusetts, Gloria Fox. She passed in 2024 on November 11th. But she was the longest standing senator in um Massachusetts history to this day. So, you know, I think she retired um a few years before she passed, but he was in the state house learning the policy piece, and he kept that going when he came home. But like even, you know, before he was released, we were working on bills together. We were like, and I'm not talking about like we just want to advocate for a thing. We actually sat down and and wrote a bill and thought about like all of the pieces to what can they counter against? What can be the piece that they can say no to? What how do we get this fiscal impact down? Like, how do we address like what is currently available as avenues of hope for people? And that's not a lot, there's like five or six paths to release for individuals. So he had this history, and through all the trauma and all the turmoil, he was able to turn that around and still always operate in dignity for other people.
SPEAKER_05That's I just want to touch on that, like, because that's amazing. And you know, I always commend you for the work that you do on policy, but now I can understand a little bit more because you know, like most most people, most ordinary people are just really not with the policy. You know, me myself, I'm not that political. You know what I mean? Um, we all reach each other how we can, but that work is is the most important, I can say, in a lot of ways. Not not the most, but it, you know, just like you said, just the day-to-day work, just helping people come out, like that's what I do and re-entry too, and that's important. You gotta meet people where they're at, but the the policy reform is major.
SPEAKER_06And it's longstanding. Like when you, you know what I'm saying, when you reform it, it's take a long time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I I I do have to take credit for having Whitmore participated in policy for the first time. Uh, we worked on expungement, but and a lot of people don't know that expungement is something that I started working on in 1999. It didn't pass until 2021, and it still doesn't take effect until July of this year. But like a lot of people who go into this new think we're gonna get something done in a session, and that's usually not how it works. Now, I will say that like with our young people at um Blue Ridge Detention Center, they were able to do written statements on removing youth shackling from our code, and that happened in a year. So when we came back for our Transformative Futures program the next year, they were able to see the fruits of their labor from their testimony and go to court without being shackled just for being in a detention center. That usually never happens and is an anomaly because a lot of people think that I'm gonna go here and I got this great idea and it's gonna happen, and people are gonna relate, and especially in criminal legal systems reform, you don't see that often.
SPEAKER_05And and just just to touch on that, because I actually didn't know that. But um, you know, thank you for that. And um the shackles mean a lot. I mean a whole lot. Shackles definitely make you feel like a real life slave. Yeah, you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_06This is a traumatic experience, period. Like that whole, it's just it's anxiety, it's traumatic, it's everything.
SPEAKER_01Like it's but we weren't doing it to adults. Like you see an adult who goes to court, they're in street clothes, or you know, sometimes you'll see them come in and in their jail clothes, but for the most time, if they go on for a trial, they're not shackled to a table with waist chains around their waist and their ankles, like the kids were being. So no more of that unless they're considered a threat. And that was something that the kids worked on directly and were able to see the fruits of their labor in like a year's turnaround time, which you usually never see. But like, yeah, we we did advocacy training together so that they could learn and be prepared for what they were doing in the policy piece, and even though they couldn't leave the detention centers, they wrote written statements and had um one of the attorneys from Legal Aid Justice Center read it on their behalf. So and you'll never hear him talk about it. So also humble, like also very humble, like a lot of things that we did, you you will never hear about a lot of times he hated. He hated to be like acknowledged for like doing things, right?
SPEAKER_05No, but it's important that you know we speak on that definitely today too, just highlighting that because and we were talking about extra being extradited. Like I remember my first time being extradited to New York, um shackled and cuffed, going through that, and that was my first time on it on a plane. You feel me? Yeah, like that's traumatic. You know, the way that people look at you, like you're a terrorist or whatnot, but um, yeah, thank you for that. And I mean, it it was a reason why y'all connected, man, because that's important. And Jesse, I know, I know you got something.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I think they both touched on what I would say, which is he was authentic. Like anybody who met him, you would connect, you could just feel that authentic energy, you could feel he really was who he was. And because of his experiences, he could speak to anybody. He could speak any language, not not like foreign languages, but he could speak, he could speak at the statehouse, he could speak on the yard, he could speak anywhere and he could connect with people because that combination of the experiences he had and just the authentic energy he had, which allowed him to be able to connect with people in pretty much any walk of life. It didn't matter where they were, he was able to affect change doing whatever he was doing. And I would say that that was kind of the superpower that I think about. But I, you know, to your point, I really do think that him never saying no to things was to his detriment. I think that was a big part of what burned him out. And I know the guilt that I had, um one of the questions we were gonna ask about how he got a certain job is like I was a part of that. I knew some people, I pulled some strings, I tried to get him in a position, and I I remember thinking, like, what if he had just gone off and like sold real estate or something? Like, would he have been better to get away from this, to not be in a place where he's constantly giving 100% and not getting anything in return? Would like he have lasted and felt more resourced? And I I wonder about that because I feel like in a way, when we get out and we have that survivor's guilt, we we push ourselves to the limit because we want to remember people on the inside, but often to our own detriment. And I wonder if he could have just gotten to another place and gotten to another life if he would have been okay.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I'm gonna touch on like from when I met him too. You know what I mean? It it was just power, you know. Like you said, like his strength was his strength, right? Like you look you look at the man, he's like, you know, got a nice bill. That was just a tiny shirt. That doesn't matter. But people say he was a gentle giant, too. Like I've I've been running into people different places and conferences and stuff, so it's like you know, you only know what you see sometimes, you know, and so like other people, like other people was like, yeah, he was he was soft in other ways, not soft by any means, you know what I mean, but like it was just that connection, it was just super genuine, like you know, going over the blue ridge and just he didn't even have to try to connect. It was like people, it was like he was a magnet, you know what I mean? Like people would feel comfortable around him. And I'll say like he was a big advocate and trying to help put people in position. You know what I mean? Like, if if it was something going on and it was need be, he would reach out, or like when he knew that I had transportation, he was like, yo, I'm telling this, that, and the third, you know, and and trying to make that happen. So um that's what it was for me. And it was just like so much strength and all the time that he spent, you know what I mean? It was just like, wow, you know, for real.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_06That speaking on that, never saying no to like, you know, always saying yes, it definitely can be detrimental to your to your mental capacity in a lot of ways. Because it's it can cause you to have anxiety, to always have to feel like you have to do something for somebody, and even if you really can't provide it, you go to your ends to do it. Like it's I had to train myself out of that. And a lot of us that have been incarcerated, that I like, I like, I feel like that's where it comes from, that environment of being with your like your brothers inside, always having a back, always back to the wall, standing tall, like with people you in the same situation with. And so many things transfer from in there to out here in a good way that we hold on to some of the other things that don't feel like bad, you know what I'm saying? And we and we we steady do them things and it'd be it'd be to our detriment. Like I'm like I'm definitely in the process of like training myself out of always saying yes. Like, oh yeah, I got it, I'ma do it, I'm gonna do it, yeah, I'm gonna do it. Like I'm training myself out of that, you know what I'm saying, to the point where I feel like way more comfortable in my thought process, and when it comes to interacting with others and being there for others and doing things for others, you know what I'm saying? So that is definitely a big thing when it comes to mental health, is it's like we have to train ourselves out of some of them things from other environments we were in to help us survive to out here.
SPEAKER_05And so I definitely, since you brought that up, I definitely want to touch on that too, because like you know, we got so many bros that have been in and out or locked up or whatnot. And um for me, like having a child was my no. You know what I mean? And it was hard, you know what I mean? Like, you know, we we all want to portray an image or live a lifestyle or just be who we are at the end of the day, but like it was a lot of times that I wasn't able to do for my bros that was like, no, you wouldn't even like no, like this is my brother for real. Like, it was a lot of times that I wanted to be able to do more, but I wasn't able to because I had to take that other turn and go start working at the bottom, you know what I mean, making eight dollars an hour, things like that. So it's like it's important, you know what I mean? Um, but it it it is like you said, it could be to your detriment. You know what I mean? And um I'm just glad like that we out here and we're able to acknowledge that and recognize it. Yeah, recognize it to the fullest because some some of our some of our people just don't understand that. They think, you know, they don't know what you're doing or don't even care what you do. And for me, I used to be like, if if if somebody that I know was locked up and they out there and they ain't they got a job, they got kids, I didn't expect nothing from them. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, why would what I'm gonna take from that for for? You know what I mean? We're gonna be in here, store-boxed, doing whatever we gotta do, whatever. But you know, that that is important um for the audience. And the next thing I really wanted to touch on was how sincere got with reform. Because I remember Sheba was the first person to tell me. I remember Gillian Wallow came down and I was like, damn, like how I'm gonna connect with them. Like, Shiva was like, I got the connection. You know what I mean? Because you know how our people do. Like people try to flex with the connections and stuff like that. And you know, like what's real is real, you know what I mean? And it what's supposed to be gonna come around. But I I just did want to touch on how he got with reform and what that process was like for y'all that know that.
SPEAKER_02Angel, what was he doing before reform? At the bottling plan?
SPEAKER_07So nah, um, that's a good question. So when we first came home, he it took me probably about a week to get my my birth certificate and my social security card and everything. He had it a little harder because he changed his name. So he wasn't being recognized by Sincere Bournemouth. So it took him like about a good month before he ended up getting his actually, you know what I'm saying, his birth certificate and everything. Um but the first job, I remember him being in the apartment and he was actually doing uh peer support uh specialist training. Uh um he did the 500 hours. In the meantime, I'm out there hustling, I'm looking for a job. Um so I ended up landing a job under the table, getting paid $15 because every application that I submitted was getting denied. So this lady gave me a job cleaning uh uh apartments and the buildings. And and I, you know, I talked to him, he was like, yo, I'm doing this right here. This is what's gonna get me where I need to be. So I said, okay, uh he graduated from the job from from the uh uh uh curriculum, yeah, the peer support. Landed a job with them, about a week later they fired him. Something about the peer support thing training because he was a felon, he can't actually be uh uh uh peer support specialist uh uh staff.
SPEAKER_05There's a lot of barriers with the department of behavior.
SPEAKER_07Broke them down. It broke them down, man. He was upset and I was like, look, man, we gotta pay our rent, man, we gotta get money. So he started working with me. Never said no. So we over here in Richmond walking around with book bags full of water, cleaning buildings. That was our first job. Then me, you know, being who I am, you know, I'm still looking for another job. So uh uh I called this this warehouse, it was called Catchmore, catch more uh Kenmore, Kenmore uh envelopes. And and I always was told, like, look, man, you know, uh fake it till you make it. So I called a uh company and I was like, look, man, can I get a uh a tour of the place that I'm looking to work at? They said, yeah, sure. I said, okay, well, can I bring a few people with me? It was like, yeah, bring whatever you want to bring. So I act Sincere and we went. We got the tour. It was me, Sincere, and this other young guy that I brought with me at the time. Um when I went inside of the warehouse, man, I'm like, uh, this is not funny. And the reason why, because it triggered me. You know, uh, I worked in in um in Sussex, what was it, Sussex 2, the laundromat there for like three years. And it was the environment was just like that. A lot of machinery. You know what I mean? So I was like, nah, that's not funny. The whole time since it was like, man, a job is a job. So he ended up doing the application and he got hired, you know.
unknownUh-huh.
SPEAKER_07Um and and he did that for a little while. Then he seen that he was getting killed for 12 hours. I'm still doing a little $15 job. Then I actually went in and got me a solar panel degree. And I went on and started doing solar panels. The whole time, I'm like, this is not for me, but I'm doing it because I got to pay the bills. So he ended working for another job, I think a Pepsi Pepsi. He was working for Pepsi, same thing, warehouse. And it wasn't until like probably about six months after that that he landed a job with Reform. For me, you know, I started driving trucks because I'm still looking. But none of those jobs really satisfied my need to what I really wanted, my purpose. I didn't have no purpose in doing those jobs. Even though I was traveling a lot. I ended up landing a job with his organization called Boys and Men, which we go into the schools. So I became a mentor working with him. And that's how my job, that's my job right now. So for him, it was reform. Once he landed reform, I mean, he he just got on his grind, man. Like that job really, really put him where he wanted to be. Mentally, financially, all those things to the point where my rent with living with him was only $500. He was like, just give me $500. And I was like, I can't beat that. You know what I mean? $500 for one bedroom a piece, you know what I mean? And I'll pay for extra things, but that's how it was for him. You know what I mean? You know, he was well established with Reform. Umnected with him now. I would let She would talk about that. I know about it, you know what I mean, but I think she can actually speak to that.
SPEAKER_01So like middle of session, they they put a job out for statewide organizer in like a different, all different states. Sean was the first person that somebody sent her, sent him a text, Aaron sent him a text and was like, hey, we're looking for an organizer. He recommended, he said, I got the perfect person. He sent his name. All of us like wrote recommendation letters, had conversations with people who would.
SPEAKER_05What yeah, what was it?
SPEAKER_012023, early part of 2023. Um, he did the interview, he was still working the 12-hour shifts overnight, and you know, ended up getting hired um in the middle of session. So thrown right into it. Um, but like there were a lot of us who like wrote recommendation letters, talked to people who were working there, and you know, they were fairly like new in the space. So they were strictly about probation, not parole, not re-entry, not any, it was over all probation. But the organizing piece was where his gift is because he has gone all over the state and country um building relationships. And he started, I remember he was still working overnight, and he was like, I start orientation, and I said, you know, don't burn your bridge, stay at the job, do your two weeks. He was like, I got it. Um, but I'm gonna get up, get off work at 7 a.m. and be on this call at 9 a.m. He went through the orientation process, still was showing up at General Assembly every day, and you know, he'd been he'd been locked in ever since. So 2020, like February 2023 is when he got hired. Um everything went in motion from there, and he was still at reform in February.
SPEAKER_05So and so for the audience, that's reform alliance, that's what um Jay-Z and Meek Meek Mills. That's that's tremendous to be able to come out and be aligned with something like that.
SPEAKER_06That's extraordinary for sure.
SPEAKER_02It just I mean, it was a positive thing. I just I remember I pulled him aside and I said, look, you're gonna make a lot more money, you're gonna have a lot more impact, but like it's gonna be a different environment. Like some of it's gonna be you're the dog and pony show. They trot you out, you gotta do your speech, and then you like I I just tried to warn him to the best of my ability that there's some good things, but there's some things that are gonna cost you. And he was like, No, no, I'm good, bro. I'm working factory, I don't give a but I again I go back to wondering, like, did I warn him sincerely enough, or did I warn him deeply enough? Or I mean, again, like you said, everybody wrote letters. I was on the phone, I actually happened to be on a call with one of the directors. Um, because I was talking about something unrelated, and they were like, Oh, well, you know, do you have anything else for this call? I was like, as a matter of fact, I do. So you got a guy in Virginia, you need to hire him, he's connected, and then you know, I went through the whole thing of how we were locked up. But again, I look back, and yeah, he he had a huge impact, and they got him literally all across the country. He was able to share his gift, but I I think that that was part of what drained him. That was part of what like took away from him because even if you're getting paid well, it doesn't mean your cup is getting refilled. It doesn't mean all that stuff you're giving out is coming back, and I worry about that.
SPEAKER_07Well, I would say to that as well as that it wasn't just one of his jobs. That was his like the one that was bringing all the money in. But let me tell you, you know, I work with over 850 youth right now, and from Prince George, Petersburg, Hopewell, um, Chesterfield and Richmond, and I'm also the coordinator for uh Returning Juveniles for Reentry. Um Cyr was like anytime I called him, hey, when he's in this school, he'll pop up. Something happened over here, he'll pop up. So he was actually working with the youth as well. And that was like one of his passions. Um and he wasn't getting paid for it. He was just doing it because that's who he was, and because I I called upon him, you know what I mean? Just like anytime he called me, and and if I can make it, I'll be there. Most of the time I couldn't. You know what I mean? Because I was busy, you know, working. But one thing that I can say is I don't think it was just the job that actually did it for him. It was other components as well. You know, um after serving 24 years for him, me 27, Jesse was like 16, 19, 19, um coming back out here to a world you know nothing about. Regular jobs just not it.
SPEAKER_06It's not it.
SPEAKER_07It's not it. Let me tell you, I'm gonna be the first one to tell you. Uh we could all do those kind of jobs, the laboring part, you know, all that. I mean, we did that for such a long time that it just don't necessarily, you know, I mean, you know, uh uh uh something that we would not be willing to do. You know, I think our purpose out here, after serving all this time, being partnered by the governor, is to be in the line of work that we're in right now. You know, I think he was in the right place. Um he used to travel a lot, leave states from state to state, you know, just like Jesse and Sheba and sometimes myself. You know, um he loved it. He used to come back with stories like man, I was just in Michigan, I was just over here, and I just sit back and listen. So that was all part of his job. Yes, work can be draining, of course. Um but what I see for me, living with him and understanding him, I don't think that's what did it. I don't necessarily feel maybe it could have been a little bit of that work, you know, but not that. You know, uh he loved the job, he loved it. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_01I I I I think it's it's hard to say. So like I we do this advocacy training and we tell everybody don't jump right into this work because we don't just take that on as a job, right? We take that on as our life's work, like our purpose, and like he he identified his work as his purpose. So it wasn't just about the compensation. So like we're adding on, going to talk to you, we're adding on, getting in front of the the gun before the bullet comes out. Like we're talking about taking hours out of our day that never turn off. So it wasn't just a job, it is the actual what is my purpose and what is my passion that was pulling heavily. And like, you know, we we've been shoulder to shoulder in this fight, and I know I have learned to take the moments. I turn my phone off. Don't call me on Sundays for anything. Like, if we're not locked in, and and this is a new thing because when I first got in this work 10 years ago, it was 25.8. You could call me at three in the morning, I'm showing up, right? Yeah, and in 2021, when I lost my grandmother, and then six months later I lost my mother, and people were still calling, like, hey, I know you just lost your people, but I need blah blah blah. I was like, Nope, I'm turning this off because people will pull on you because they know your heart, right? And they don't give any grace or any time for I need a minute, hold up, I need a beat. And he was a person being a people pleaser, and and it goes back to like being in prison. You you want to do everything for the people you left behind because that's what he always said. I left these people behind. I gotta show up for him, I gotta take this call, I gotta answer this JPEG message. Yeah, we're in the middle of a session, and this thing can change from hour to hour, but I'm gonna still respond to this and I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna take this drive, and I'm gonna go there, I'm gonna do this call while I'm riding down 64 and 95, and it never turned off, right? And he never took time for himself. And it was it, there were moments where I say, yo, like turn it off. He didn't know how to turn it off. So, so we're talking, we're not just talking about a job, we're talking about my life's work, what what I identify as my mission, what I identify as my passion. And if you don't have the ability to make know a complete sentence, then it will break you. And I had to learn that because people will pull and pull and pull, and they'll say, I need, I need, I need. And then when you need, there's nobody to pour back into your cup. And that's that's something that I identify. So yeah, you can enjoy it, you can love it, you can feel like this is fulfilling to me. Because like all the small moments, we would share together and like celebrate in private. Like it wasn't a big celebration if you help somebody pay their rent this month, it wasn't a big celebration if you help somebody get food this month, it wasn't a big celebration if you get somebody into a career today. People didn't even know about a lot of the things that we were doing. But what if you fail? What if you can't get that person um out of prison? What if you can't accept that phone call? What if you can't get this bill passed? There were things that were happening behind the scenes that would break the average person, and he was holding. He was holding these things. Like when I when our bill was killed this year, there were tears. Like there were real tears because we've been working on this for six years, and people were depending on it. There are thousands of people depending on us, and that weight is heavy. So, and I used to tell him, like, you gotta shut down. You gotta learn how to say no, you gotta learn to prioritize yourself. Go to sleep tonight. You don't have to stay up all night running around trying to answer calls and text messages and emails. When you leave this earth, the job will replace you and think nothing of your legacy. They got the probation bill passed, and I didn't even see them mention Sincere's name. When they oh, Virginia passed the probation bill, the governor signed it. There was no tag for Sincer a law. There was no post. They they tagged three organizations that came into the work late in the game. They didn't even tag the organizations that are part of the coalition that worked on this for years. There was no mention of Sincere when they hyped that. So I I tell this to anybody have your passion, do your work, love what you do. But if you don't take the initiative to set time aside for yourself, this life will break you. And especially in this part of the work, this can break you.
SPEAKER_02I just want to say about this. I have never once heard you say no. So that's really good advice. But I think people are actually doing it yourself.
SPEAKER_01I do say no, but I don't say no to a lot of things. But I know, like, if it's not aligned with my passion, it's not something that's going to fulfill me, it's not something I don't feel good about. And I use my discernment. I say no. You just you don't see it because I'm I'm slick with it. Like, listen, you know, so you gotta say no. And and if you don't, and and people talk their, you know, they oh, you know, she is they'll act like you never showed up for them before. Once you develop that mindset that I've done enough, you don't worry about when people say, you know, because I'm gonna show up again. It might not, it might not be this time. So, but you have to, and and the guilt, like trying to guilt people who have the passion for this, who aren't just getting a paycheck for it, is why so many people don't say no.
SPEAKER_06That's that's that's true. I I just want to chime in because when you said that when you lost your family members, and you know, you you started people still was pulling at you and all that, and I recently lost my pops, my pops passed in December 28th. And peace doesn't I I got out, I got out from the feds April. I got out from the fairs in April, you know what I'm saying? I got partnered by the president, you know what I mean? So I got off from the fair in April, and my pops passed December, whatever, and I was just uh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh-uh, everything, everything, everything, everything, you know. Job, my my own business, you know, freedom for felons, and then all the family stuff, and just everything, everything, everything. So my pops passed, and it was just like I'm the only child, so it was more everything. And like in that moment, like like that next day, I was like, I'm just gonna slow down. I'm just gonna get to it when I get to it. And I've really been living like that since that day. And I swear I find myself getting so much more done, being so much more satisfied with how I'm doing the things that I'm doing because I'm doing them on my time. And I getting, I'm getting back to what I said I was gonna do before I came home. I told myself, I said, you gotta be selfish this time. You have to be this time, because that's the only way you're gonna be good, and everybody around you're gonna be good. Because if I don't take care of myself, I can't take care of my son, my girl, my daughter, my mom. You know, I can't be there for them the way they need me to be there and be my true self. Is what's what they need if I ain't taking care of myself. So ever since that day, December 29th, I've been just slow and doing things on my time and getting a lot more done. So I I really I really can attest to what you're saying when you just gotta shut it off sometimes. You gotta slow it down sometimes. You gotta, you know, break the grind down. It'll be there for you to do tomorrow, you know what I'm saying? But I can't get this time and this peace of mind back tomorrow. You know, so yeah, I can agree with that 100%.
SPEAKER_05I I kind of want to talk about mental health and itself, like, because like a lot of people don't understand, you know, people look at it as a weakness, you know, and to be it, like, I don't even I don't even know how to put that in context, to be honest with you. But like a lot of people are dealing with stuff that you have no idea, you know what I mean, every day. And so like it that's that's really what just made me think about is like you never really know. Like we we knew a little bit about him, just like you said he shared what he shared. You know what I mean? But it's so much inside, and then just thinking about incarceration, you know what I mean, um, even animals ain't supposed to be put in the case. You know what I mean? Like they're gonna react different once they out of there. You know what I mean? And so it's like, you know, every it everybody is different. Um takes time different and whatnot. Everybody's support systems are different, you know, so it's never like we can really pinpoint what it could be for a person unless they really even just say it all. And even then it's probably other little contributing factors or whatever, but um it's just it's just a moment to highlight, you know, how much we're being impacted by mental health right now, you know, and um just just one of them times to just like if if you know somebody going through something, like I I watched Jesse and his videos, like to be honest, like it was so much transparency because you know, like he was showing his emotions, and I and I commended Jesse since he came home on being able to get in front of the camera and and say all that stuff because everybody can't do that, everybody don't want to do that, but everybody cannot do it. Yeah, you know what I mean? As much as I want to sometimes, it's a lot of times where I can't even get that stuff out, you know what I mean? And so that transparency, it meant a lot to me. Um, and it would it was genuine, you know what I mean? And I know that we all like I ain't even gonna lie, like I didn't know Sincere that much, but it impacted me like like for real, like where I was volunteers for sure, and your pastor. Yeah like that them two at the same time, because I told Shiva what was going on. And like that, that really, that really, um, it really put it was a strain on me. It put things in perspective too, though. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Definitely, definitely put some things in perspective.
SPEAKER_06That's how you I mean, that's how I feel like I know how powerful my pops was, I know the work he put in, I know the time he put in and whatever. And that's how I can feel like I can feel that from sincere, even though I didn't know him. The power he that he held because of the reaction and and and and the like you know the aftermath of the situation. So yeah, I definitely can can feel that.
SPEAKER_05That was right around that time and I had hit you, and you and then when I let you know about the situation, you was like, wow, you didn't even text me, you just called me.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Straight up. Like, damn.
SPEAKER_07Listening to y'all, man, it just reminds me how powerful, man, you know, sometimes, you know, um, our experiences can can be. You know, um, it's unfortunate that we all have to experience prison. You know, um, some of us was because our environment, some of us just was because, you know, that's just where we were at those times, you know. Uh drugs, addictions, all that, you know, can cost easily because we governed by laws. So, you know, when you break one law, you could break a million, you know. And, you know, that that equips to, you know what I'm saying, and it an equivalent, you know what I mean, for you to go into prison. Ten misdemeanors, you're going to prison. You know, one felony, you're going to prison. You want to do time, whether it's one day or ten years, it's still time, you know. Um but I can I can say this, I can attest to a lot of things when it comes and see it. Uh but I feel like his loss for me, it, you know, growing up in the streets, doing what I did, you know, uh being remorseful, understanding my crime, you know, and all those things, um, understanding my guys that I used to hang around around with, you know, growing up. I don't take nothing away from my experience, but at the same time, I was never I was never taught what was love. See what I'm saying? Or what was a brother. I left my little brothers when they were babies. You know, everybody that was around me, drug dealers, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, when you're in that life, man, if you don't got my money, I don't care how close I stand to you. If you don't got my money, man, I'm gonna do something to you. But how can I call you my guy? How can I call you my brother? You know what I'm saying? When honestly, all I'm doing is lying to you because what governs us, our relationship, is money. Transactional. Yeah, so with Sincere, the relationship that I learned to have with Sincere was not about that. It was genuine. It was literally genuine. Like, I you know, I'm older than him, you know. Um I literally can say that Sincere became my older brother. You know, he became that guy that that never asked for anything from me. You know, um complained like my big brother, like a father. But I grew up around gangsters, you know, killers. Most of them are dead, you know. Sincere was not that. Sincere just had a bad, a bad relationship with his parents, you know, and it's by default, it wasn't his fault. You know, no child is born bad. We already know that. That's what I gather being around Sincere. You know, Sincere, Sincere literally taught me what was to literally, genuinely love your brother. You know, um there's no comparison, you know. I mean, even my own guys are still alive and everything, even in my own family. I would have not shed any tears. My my my uncle right now, he's on his deathbed. And I don't know him like I wish I did, you know. I know Sincere more, and I'm still mourning Sincere. You know, that's the impact that he had on me as a as a man, as a human being. You know, take away everything else, just as a human being, period. Um so listening to you saying about your dad and everything, like, you know, that's kind of like the same relationship that I have with Sincia.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_07Believe it or not, you know, we become numb in prison. You know, we become numb. We don't understand what is an emotion and what this actually means to you. I done heard, I heard Jesse many times express it, and I swear, man. And something that he said, it gravitated towards me because he expressed it so well in some of his you know uh uh skits, that's what I call him. You know, he'll go up there for like five quick seconds, and by the time I catch it, I'm like, wow, you know, I got the message. You know, uh and he does it so well. So if I'm not mistaken, I remember one time you were talking about relationships and what a relationship felt like to me. And sometimes how you know how different it felt, you know, versus being in prison and being in a relationship. And it touched me so profoundly that I was like, wow man, I felt I didn't call you and I didn't tell nobody about this, but I I knew that I was the only one that was going through this. You know, and I was like, every time I hear somebody like us that's being on the other side, you know, and hear guys express it, I'm like, wow, man, I'm not the only one feeling like this.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. But I didn't know. That's a big thing for us to hear. That is not, you know what I'm saying? Guys that have been in your position is going through that. That's a big, it's a big thing for me, I know for sure. Like, even just being on this platform and having guys like you and Jesse that have been in before, and just seeing the work that y'all are doing and hearing y'all speak, it was like, yeah, like, okay. Like, it's, you know, it's it's steps to it's it's levels to get to where you need to be after.
SPEAKER_07It's a gift and a curse, man. I always say it, man. This is not something that I I don't do this. I don't do this platform thing. I don't do this. It's not me because I don't put I'm doing it right now because it hurt. But at the end of the day, it's not my thing because I see it every day. Um what I want people to understand also is that being in prison is not something that I I'm happy about. You know, it was where I was at that time in my life. It's a sad story. 27 years that I'm never gonna get back. You know so I don't try to put anything to this. But what I can say is the gift is to me that I can see things before they happen, you know, as far as like out here, you know what I'm saying, with you and because I live there. You know what I mean? So having those lived experiences is like you can actually take those experiences and pinpoint the things that's about to happen that you maybe.
SPEAKER_08You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_07So for me, that's the gift, you know what I'm saying? The curse is that you know, a lot of people when you talk to them about prison, uh so you're one of those guys. I don't know you. You know what I mean? Like, then you have to relive that story over and over and over again. I don't know how Jesse does it, man, because he relives it. You know, and that that could be a stressful situation. When you're constantly talking about that time and period that you live, you know what I mean? It's not something that you're proud of, but at the same time you feel like it has to be told. Because what you're doing is helping a lot of people. You know what I mean? So kudos to you, man. Can I do that? Yes, but I do it behind the scenes. You know what I'm saying? I don't do it in this kind of platform, you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. You know, uh but that's to me, you know, uh a lot of us in prison, we we become numb. We don't understand, we don't know how to express emotions because we we actually try to survive in that environment, you know. I did six years in segregation, so I know that feeling what it is to be in that cell and see the next guy be his you know his his easy, you know what I mean? So at the end of the day, man, those are things that would never leave my mind. You know, and understanding that environment, it's like, man, I don't want to see nobody out here go do that. You know? I had two roommates that passed away on me. One of them was passed away like this, you know, because he can't lay down on a bed. And then after that being put in segregation because they think that I have something to do with that, you know, and that's his whole protocol. So experiencing all those things, those are things that to me is sad, those are sad things that I had to experience, you know, and those are some of the things that sometimes traumatized and how he knows I think it was serious.
SPEAKER_05So I just wanted to say, like touching on that way, like already even sad sometimes. Like, you know what I mean? Like we don't we don't know, like in Fort Trans Parents we all know, like he made a video previous, like we were texting, I'm sure everybody else was in communication, like he confirmed the podcast being on here before he had made that video. I mean after he had made that video actually.
SPEAKER_00No, because that video was made that video was made the night before 1 a.m.
SPEAKER_07in the morning. He said the least three days before that.
SPEAKER_02And I know that we all, I I know I beat myself up asking what did I miss. And when I look back, I see, I see the way he drank. And I think about that and the fact that he was quick to go to the bottle and try to like numb whatever was going on. And it wasn't even how much he would drink, it was the fact that he was going to it like he needed it in that moment. And I just chalked it up to him being in a stressful job, I just chalked it up to whatever, and I would talk to him, I'd always, you know, encourage him to open up, but I never pressed him because, like you said, he was a private guy, he didn't talk about things. And I look back, and one of the reasons, like you said with the video, the reason I do that, the reason I try to bleed openly emotionally is I want people to know that it's okay. Like there are a bunch of people out here doing this, and there's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't make you weak, to be honest. It actually like relieves that burden, and I wish I would have pushed harder, I wish I would have asked more questions, I wish I would have done more. When I look back, it's really the drinking for me that I see that I'm just like, damn, he was on that, like he was on that edge. He was probably on that edge for a long time.
SPEAKER_01So it's it's it's it's a few, like there's a couple of dynamics, and and not just specific to sincere. Like I've been doing this work for 10 years now, and hell with the work. I grew up in prison. Like my dad started at Spring Street, which is Spring Street, it was the old penitentiary that is where um Alpha Lava is now, which is beside Virginia housing. Like my grandmother was a person, she has you know six sons. My godfather, um, but she used to go into the prisons and like call other guys out because it was community. Like you didn't have to have the strict rule around one thing. Um, my dad did 19 and a half years in DOC. He came home from Greensville in 2007. I went through the searches, the, you know, there's people on the outside who also have like to deal with the behavioral health piece, right?
SPEAKER_09That's a fact.
SPEAKER_01Um, but like even so, my mom did six months in jail and that impacted her for the rest of her life. When she died at the age of 63, she was still like battling with this felony, right? Um, my ex was 15 when he was incarcerated, tried as an adult, sentenced to 74 years. He spent 10 months in solitary confinement from day one. He was the youngest person in the state in 1992 to be housed in Southampton Correctional Center. He's never recovered mentally. It depends on the person. And and we don't have, we have all these therapists. We have all these groups. We have all these uh you see so many LCSWs and so many, oh, seek therapy, do self-care. Even if people don't say seek therapy, they will say seek self-care, do self-care. But they will do everything in their power to interrupt your self-care. They will get an attitude if you say, I'm taking a day. Jobs, if you think about jobs, they don't give you a day off for being well, they want to give you a day off for being sick. But if you say, I feel good, I just need to keep this momentum, I don't want to do this job, you got to answer a thousand questions. So when we talk about like men in particular, women deal with the two, but the stigma is is larger for men, especially and specifically if you have dealt with incarceration. There are no real options for people who have dealt with incarceration. We don't even have a peer support process because uh Virginia has 129 barrier crimes. Texas has 12 barrier crimes. 129 in the state of Virginia is insane. That means that people who live the same experience do not get to go into the field to support and help people and be compensated for it because they'll let you do your volunteer hours, they'll let you volunteer your time and share your story and do all this trauma porn about what you've been through. And there's a new fascination with incarceration. Like it is akin to a PhD. They will have people come to colleges and share your story, tell me what happened, and nobody wants to address what are the good things that happened from that moment forward. What are the good things that have accumulated in your life? They just want to talk about that moment that's probably the worst in your life, right? So we're asking people to deal with and build with and keep reliving, like Angel said, keep reliving this moment over and over for my entertainment for my purposes. And now we got to figure out as people who are impacted by incarceration, who are we sharing this for and what is the purpose and what is the point? Like, are we really getting to the heart of helping somebody, or is this just for entertainment? And it's hard to navigate that in itself and the pressures of you going from a place where your toiletries were provided, your your I ain't even I don't even know how to say health care because an aspirin in prison is all the health care you're gonna get. But like your food is provided, your clothes is provided, your lights, all the things you got to come out here and figure out employment, living, housing, cars, transportation. Now I gotta figure out how this cell phone works, how do I navigate relationships, how do I deal with kids if I have left them behind? You gotta figure out all these things and you gotta figure it out fast because it's coming at you a thousand miles an hour, and they say, now you have this felony and 60,000 plus collateral consequences that come with it, and parole and probation and reporting to somebody and still being under carceral control. You cannot be a whole person, but we want you to navigate all these things and do it better than the person who's never been touched by a system, and nobody's checking in to say, Are you okay? Yeah, but we also have people who like sincere, when you check in and say, Are you okay? They they are conditioned to say, I'm good, I got it, I'll be okay, I'll get it tomorrow. We'll try this again. And he was the most like we had a routine. He hit me up every morning, good morning, grandma. What's your day like? And he would try to figure out ways he could fit into my day. Can I help you with this? Can I do this? And I'm like, How can I help you? And he would be like, I got it. I'm a he said, I'm an army of one. And we used to like kind of go at it all the time about I say, you're not an army of one. Like, we're here, like we got you. It was not incumbent upon him to accept help. And I remember last year, like surprising, I had to surprise him with an award, and the his award was Survivor for Justice. We had 10 categories, and I picked that for a reason. Um, you know, I know his history, I know the things. I picked Survivor for Justice and I presented it to him, and I said, you always tell people you're an army of one, you always show up for everybody else, and I gotta fight you to show up for you. I need people to understand that they have to be okay with accepting help and accepting like somebody that they trust that they can talk through things. Because we talked about a lot of things. We talked about, and there were signs, there were obvious signs, like we've talked in depth about behavioral health things. But I never, like, like Angel said, I never in the Magin years thought that it was so bad that he would make that move. Like that I couldn't see it coming because he was always the positive person for me and everybody else. He was always uplifting, he was always supporting. There was never an envious body, like like bone in his body. It was always, yo, he would come to all of my events, all of my awards, and like yo, he would be the first to celebrate all the things. Like we I never saw it coming. And for that, it is it it took such a toll on me because we talked every day, multiple times a day. If four hours pass and we ain't talked, he's coming. Like, yo, you good? Um, you know, good night every night. Like, there was not a single day since what his birthday in 2023 that we have not been connected. And we met before that. We met like three years before that, but like I'm talking about. If you look at my phone, there are thousands of messages, videos, because you always had to send a video. There was never, I can just send a normal message. It always had to be a picture or a video with it, but that was our connection. And it was always, I'm good, I'm okay. I need people to start being okay with accepting help, with talking to somebody they trust, finding somebody that's their person, because we're all left with the the questions about did we do enough? Could we have caught this? Did we miss something? And I don't think we did. I think he masked it well, and and that's the hard part that we gotta kind of like go on with.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, um, me working in re-entry, I just wanted to touch on some of the stuff that Shiva had said. Like, realistically, like, of course, as a man, we always try to be the man of the house young or whatever that looked like for your household and things like that, especially black men coming up without their fathers in the household. Um, but I would say, for the most part, I'd probably say 90% of the people that I've come in contact with, no matter how much time they spent, it was a lack of something, right? And most and it's that support system overall. And um, when it when it's family, you can't just replace family. You can't even try and say you could do that. You know what I mean? But um just building that support system up, it takes a lot to even go and, you know what I mean, go into a place of people that you don't know, put that pride to the side and things like that. And so the people that I've seen most successful are the individuals that are receptive to that, that are willing to get out and network and build that, build that support system for whatever that that that's worth, you know. Um, but I will say like it's it's not common for most of us to talk to somebody about what we're really going through. We try to hide those things and we'll and then trust isn't there. You know what I mean? And so when it comes to those therapists and things like that, that's just something that we need to be more um open on and and speak on.
SPEAKER_07Um have either y'all ever um I'm listening to you, it's funny you say that because I just answered that same question to this uh friend of mine, and I said, Y'all really want to have this conversation? And she was like, Yeah, yeah, we really do. And I'm sitting amongst people that wealthiest by all means, you know what I'm saying? I mean don't mean nothing in life. And they wanted to know more about how I dealt with, because they they recommended I'm gonna say this, I'm a human being, man. I make many mistakes. One of my biggest mistakes that I regret today is that I got an um I got a gambling addiction. And that happened within the last two years where I was traveling with a lot of money on myself and just trying to make more because I wanted better for myself. And I wanted it too fast. Uh I wasn't planning on going backwards. I wasn't saying, I'm not going back to prison, I'm not gonna sell drugs, I'm gonna do it this way right here. And it didn't work out for me. And I'm learning from that. And I'm getting my priorities straight now. But at the end of the day, uh I lost myself for almost two years, you know. Uh and that was part of my depression because I was trying to find something to sort of kind of like, you know, just get me to where I need to find what's really, really wrong with me.
unknownYou know what I mean?
SPEAKER_07Like I can't communicate around people. You know, I didn't really want to be around nobody. Was that part of my segregation time? Was that, I don't know.
SPEAKER_09I don't know.
SPEAKER_07I know that prison had a lot to do with it, but at the same time, you know, I'm free. I suppose it's alright. But it's freedom actually being free. You know, so for me, you know, I find myself in my car driving places that I'm like, where the hell am I going here? You know, how did I get here? You know, you know, so just just things was happening to me that was normally out of my capital as I am, you know. And a lot of us probably go through that. Most of us don't want to talk about it because we're ashamed of talking about things like this, you know. When when I explained the message, like I'm a human being. I went in when I was 17. I'm out here now, I'm 48. You know, I'm still learning, but learning what? You know what I mean? Because I know a lot. So it's a lot of questions that I have that I can't, I don't have the answer for. So at the end of the day, um but I wanted to say something to that because listening to Jesse speaking on some of it as well. For me, I think that I find myself searching, I find myself looking, I find myself and and and and I was talking to my girl back today, and I was driving with her, and I was like, what do you feel like this is like something that I mean that you envision? Like, are you proud about your life right now, how it's going and everything? She was like, Yeah, it's normal. And I was like, it's not it don't feel normal with me. And she thought I was talking about her, like our relationship. I was like, nah, it's just like I feel like I just can't communicate some of the things that I'm really going. You know, so I hold those things in. That's not that's not good. I encourage people all the time, man. Talk about your problems. No matter how hard it may be or how sad, talk about these things. Because at the end of the day, man, it's gonna make you feel much better.
SPEAKER_06Way better.
SPEAKER_07You know, um and I I had a hard problem doing that, man. I was I was kind of like, you know, just navigating my own my own destiny, man. And you know, one of the things that she would hit on is like sincere never asked for help. Never. Like he was the help, he was that guy, you know, that that you're supposed to come to. And it should have never been that way. You know what I mean? But once again, I go back to the no, we don't know how to say those two letters. It's hard for us to say no, you know, because we want to do so much for everybody out here, you know what I'm saying? That no would never be in our woke out. You know, for me, I'm starting to understand what no means because a lot of people tell me, you know, you know what I mean? So I'm like, okay, that makes sense. I mean, I have to accept that. You know what I mean? But uh for me to say myself, it's it's always been a burden, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_04You know, you know so about yourself, Jesse. Like, have you ever talked with a therapist?
SPEAKER_02So I I at my first prison I went over to mental health because like I was miserable. I hated myself, man. I got all that time. And as much as the crimes that I committed, the people I hurt and getting all that time, it was the shame I felt for my family and for people out there who believed in me. I remember in that courtroom when they gave me 32 years, I wouldn't even think about myself. I was like, how am I gonna make this okay for them?
SPEAKER_05And that's major. I'm gonna just say that right now because on the other end, I'm gonna be real. Like on myself, like I thought it was me. I didn't I didn't think about everybody. I lost my mother while I was incarcerated. So it was all about me doing the time. Couldn't nobody tell me, like, oh, they're going through it too, until after the fact I learned how much could have put her in her grave, to be honest with you. You know what I mean? From stress and you know, cancer and all of that stuff. But I just wanted to highlight that really.
SPEAKER_02I would say, you know, we we have our own trauma. Part of my trauma was I grew up thinking I was responsible for everybody else. Like a big part of what led me to prison was I grew up believing that it was my responsibility to make sure the people in my life were okay. And I was always secretly hoping someone would come along and meet my needs, make sure I was okay, but same way sincere, I didn't know how to ask for it. So I would show up and I would give everything and I would take care of everybody else, and I wouldn't take care of myself. And so that really was just my particular trauma or my experience growing up. And so it wasn't necessarily like an attribute or a positive thing, it was it was the way that I was messed up or the way that I had dealt with the lack in my life.
SPEAKER_05So, but did you talk with the therapist?
SPEAKER_02I did. So when I went into prison, I did, and I was really lucky because the the lady that I talked to first was just like kind. I don't know how to describe it. She was like that was an odd way first, but I I I continued to talk to people because what I found was that that room with the therapist was the only place in prison where I could exist in my whole humanity. Where I didn't have to like be one thing or another, I didn't have to want have one face or another, I could just be, and that gave me the courage to eventually become that person all the time. And I remember somebody asked me one time when I was locked up, I think it was a Buckingham, and they were like, Man, how do you do this? How do you not like join this or pretend to be this or get whatever? I said, Look, I'm tired. Like, I'm tired of pretending to be something I'm not. I'm tired of trying to impress people. I'm tired, I'm I'm tired, man. I'm just all that happens this. Like, if you don't like it, cool. The other thing was I think in prison it helped because a lot of times in the world we feel this pressure to like impress people, especially when we're trying to get a job or get into a field or go somewhere. In prison, we had a little bar because we had all thrown our lives away. Like we had all messed up, so I didn't need to worry about it impressing anybody. So I think those combinations got me there. I'll say it's funny because I got out, and for a year, I was like, I'm good, like I'm free, why would I need help? And I had a breakdown probably about a year and a half after, like a complete breakdown before I like nearly lost my life. And I reached out, like I started talking to the therapist the next day, I started interviewing, and I found somebody, and she asked me, She said, What? So, you know, what are you interested in? What are you doing? I was like, I apparently got a lot of stuff I need to unpack, and I thought I was good, I thought Freedom fixed it, but it didn't. And I've been talking to her every week for what is that, three years?
unknownThat's powerful.
SPEAKER_05That's good to know. Uh I don't know if you had I wanted to ask you have you ever talked talked with her like this too?
SPEAKER_06So once. Yeah. I can agree with like well I'll say this. I've been in a lot of institutions. I've been to the state, I was in the state for 10 years, I was in the feds for nine years. And every I can say every institution I've been at, psychology is probably the safest place on the institution. Like it won't know bias. It won't know like you know, the inmate bias, the the felon bias, the convict bias. It won't that in their eyes, and you can tell it was sincere when you spoke to them. You know what I'm saying? So I've talked to I've been in some programs, I talked to therapists, I've been in some therapeutic programs as well, and um where it was mandatory that you talk to a therapist, that you talk to somebody in psychology or whatever.
SPEAKER_05So um yeah, I talked to that what made you, you think, or no?
SPEAKER_06Or just like I just did it because I had to to get through the program, but as I went on throughout my bids and being in the situations and being in different prisons, like I said, psychology was always the safest space mentally on a prison. Probably physically too, but mentally it was probably the safest space at any prison I've ever been at. You know, and I can say that I've never had a bad experience with nobody in psychology incarcerated. I never spoke to nobody out here, not a professional or whatever. You know, I unload my therapeutic stuff on other people that allow me to. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01But I think it's interesting that you say that because like I go back to the thought around we have all these behavioral health specialists, but nobody is trained in people who have been incarcerated. So I think it's something we have to create. And like we like since the situation, I've been like talking and thinking about like how do we create a space just for us? Because no, no, no shade to my friends who are in like social work, mental health. My daughter is uh has her master's in social work, but she doesn't identify the same way. And because the of the barriers that come in Virginia, and we've been talking with some legislators about like how we can address this in a better way. Um, they need people who have been through the experience. They need people who know the things. And like being some like like I I was wrongfully convicted in 2004 and I didn't go to prison. I walked straight out of the courtroom and had to figure out how to live with this felony for 21 years, right? Um and still had to provide for three kids under the age of five. Speaking to a therapist has been something that um I needed. I need it because in a world where I am up here, like I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm not bragging, but I'm big dog in this in this space, right? I do a lot of work and I hold a lot of like um vicarious trauma because I have to hold secrets. I can't I can't have a conversation about what I talked to with this person who came to me for help and support. I can't have conversations about the meltdown I saw or the Narcan that I had to distribute this night or different things like that, or whose parent is in the hospital and different things. Like, yeah, we got our circle, but we don't have professionals who have the experience, and that's that's by design, right? The state of Virginia and their barrier crime laws prevents people who are formally incarcerated specifically and especially with like violent offenses with barrier crimes. And like I like I have a white-collar crime, right? But I that's considered a barrier crime. I can't work in that space. So I went through my PRS training. They good for me to. I went and taught a whole um EMT department in some little ass town in Virginia that I never I still don't know the name of, but I taught them about the use of Narcan and not having a stigma around recovery, right?
SPEAKER_05You know what you're training for free.
SPEAKER_01But when it comes to being certified and making uh a living where I can pay my mortgage, take care of my kids, pay things, nah, you can't get that. So you gotta fight with Department of Professional Occupational Regulation, but like getting back to like the core of us, we have to have a safer space for ourselves and we have to create it ourselves. So we are like working on things. Like I I have like bought a hotline that is um geared towards like keeping Sincere's legacy alive, um, because like it really got my wheels turning and and being the person who was closest to him for years and not seeing this coming, right? And it was like we gotta have something. We gotta have and if I'm not the safe person, you gotta find somebody that's safe for you. Because, like, like you say, I I my therapy is through probably through like your girl, your your parents, or whom, you know, your homeboy, whatever, you gotta find somebody that's safe for you. And we have been conditioned as people to hold this stuff in and keep it moving. And especially if you've been in prison, especially if you have that scarlet leather, they say, no, you don't, you don't need this, but we need it the most. And we need a space that is specific to us because, like, you know, I came up in this system. Like, there is no, there is not the the reason why Sincere and I connected the way that we did is because like my ex went to prison, but he wasn't in this work. I couldn't talk to him about this work, I could talk to him about personal things, and or it was vice versa. I could talk to my person about work things, but not personal things. Sincere and I connected on every level, right? And we were doing the things together and we were in the work together. If there were times when I couldn't do certain things, he would pick up the slot. And and like I used to have to fight with him, like like fight with him about offering help. And I remember one time he was sick. He's always getting like these sinus infections. Um, and you know, we talk, we check in, and I said, you know what, forget it. I went to the store, I bought like the soup, I bought mucineks, I bought, I went and did like um the ocean set from Bath and Body, where he just put some stuff together, and I took it to the house and I dropped it off. And he looked at me like like he almost didn't want to accept it because it's like I'm a man, I can't accept it. And I was like, look, we're not gonna have a conversation about this, take it. I got to the point where I just started doing stuff. Like I and I noticed he used to do this to me, and I used to be it used to be hard for me to accept help. He would listen to like what my things were for the day, and he would say, Well, I'm gonna go help with X, Y, and Z. I got you on this. So I started doing the same thing to them, and he hated it. But I figured out his way, right? I figured out his mannerisms, and because he had never had it, like presenting love from a genuine place to a person who's never experienced it was the hardest thing that I had to deal with with him. And like now, like he's not here, and and I'm going on, and there are so many people who are like you you talk about some mental health stuff. We talk about what death brings to people and how crazy it's been in these nine weeks dealing with all of the different emotions of a person who um was loved by so many people, and also had been a disconnect from so many people who should have loved him. So, you know, there are so many factors that come in it, but it's a common thing, and nobody ever talks about it. But it's it's gonna be my it's gonna be my like life's work to make sure that we provide a space for people who are impacted by incarceration. We're doing an event May 2nd that talk about mothers who've been impacted by incarceration and sincere honor. Um, because we leave the women out, right? And I'm not just talking about women who've been incarcerated, I'm talking about the mothers who do the visits, who put the money on the books, who send the quarterly packs, who raise the kids, the people who are picking up the slack when we lose an earner in the household. And in like, I need you guys to know, and I need y'all guys to know, you are not just what you can produce, you are not just what you can bring into the household. People are worthy of respect, dignity, and love. And shutting down and saying, no, prison taught me that I ain't, you know, I ain't worthy of this, that is the biggest barrier for a person on the outside, right? I fight with that with everybody. Like, because you know, I'm in this work, I'm deep in this work. My dad, my uncles, I have three uncles who are lifers. My ex, my one of my closest friends did 27 years, came home July 1, 2024. It is very difficult to, and it is a fight for me to love people who have never experienced love in a healthy way. So, yeah, I go to therapy because of that. Like, I have to deal with my own version of therapy because of how much I take in. And it's vicarious trauma, but it hits me too. And in turn, it impacts my kids and it impacts community and it impacts everybody that I work with. And those are the things that taught me, like watching him, taught me you gotta put no in place and be firm on it and stand on your boundaries and be unapologetic about I need my space today. Thursday, when the news broke about our former lieutenant governor, and I don't want to get into the conversation about it. I just want to tell y'all that it triggered me because of the alignment of all the things that have happened in the past few weeks. But I worked with him, right? It triggered me so much that I I shut down. I didn't answer my phone for anybody, I didn't check text messages, emails, anything. I laid in my bed all day and I knew I needed that because it took me flooding back to February 13th and knowing that I couldn't stop the path that I saw the night before, start the night before, that was inevitable, right? And um, I needed that. And a lot of people don't know when they need a break, they don't know when they need other people, they don't know when they need relief, they don't know when they just need somebody to give them a damn hug or a place to hold silence because there have been days when we've just held silence for each other, and that did wonders to like a reset.
SPEAKER_07I want to add on to that real quick because I didn't ask that question. So when I did my six years in segregation, I remember therapists used to come around, and I'm not saying the therapists don't work anymore, it just didn't work anymore. So I remember the therapists used to come around and sign something on the seat. So you alright in there? Is everything all right? I'm gonna say that my therapist was actually the guy next to me. From morning to night. Like, yo, good night, bro. Good night. And even in the midst of all the noise and chaos and everything that was going on, me and this guy kind of like bonded. Just on that level, like, yo, you know what I'm saying? He kept me going, he kept me going, and I kept him going. Um vice versa, you know, when I came, I got out of segregation and everything, going back in the population. Um I confide more on my peers than anybody else. To the point where I met a counselor, she put me in a lot of programs, a blessing, you know what I mean, because she got me the education that I needed to be able to do the work that I do now. Um, but that's all it was. She's seen something in me that I'm not seeing myself. You, you, you, you, you look at things now and the way I see it. I see I got through this basically with my peers. You know, I wrote a program, you know, that now it's being ran out here because the system took it to a whole nother level, you know, and since here, which is gonna be part of that, they're all both co-owners of this program. But in this program, we talk about mental health in the way we see it. Not the way a psychiatrist or a counselor or anybody else see it. We see it, we're making this known and understood on how we see mental health. Because if you can't relate to what I've been through, there's not much you can tell me that I'm gonna actually, you know what I mean, adhere to. And I'm just being honest for me. I'm not saying that therapy is not good for other people. Yeah, you know, I'm not the kind of person that can sit down in front of somebody that I don't know and spill the beans, you know what I mean, and then just get up and leave and come back another week later and do it all over again. I could talk to sisters about anything. And I feel so much, I mean, like I could leave and she's carrying my weight. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I dropped it on her because I know that she could bear that weight. Same way if I could sit right here and talk to Jesse about everything that I'm going through, I know for a fact that he's gonna get up and carry that weight for me. But does that therapy do that for me? No, because that's a job to that person to listen. You know what I mean? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I appreciate all of that and I and I understand and I know that everybody is different. And I know that you said that too, you know. Um but I think there's a lot of there's there's a a lot in sharing stuff with people that don't know you as well. Like they can't judge you because I did that. I'm not saying that it will work for you. And I did it over the phone and I did it through my job. You know what I mean? But I I do feel like sometimes we put too much on our own people that we think can bury that, you know what I mean? Like carry that. But it's nothing wrong with what you're doing because that's your support system. And like Sheba said, like, we need people that are understanding and been through what we've been through too, but it's kind of hard to find them type of people that go, you know, it's that's a lot, that's a whole lot. But um at the end of the day, I understand where you're coming from, but I just had to say, like, I wanted to share my you know, my experience with having a therapist for my first time or whatnot, and it was like through the telephone, you know what I mean? Nobody saw me, nobody, and it was it was friend. It was friend, because at the end of the day, it was like shh, what can you you don't know me? You can't say nothing about me.
SPEAKER_06Sometimes you just gotta say it. It don't even matter who hears it. Exactly. Sometimes, you know what I'm saying, depending on what it is, depending on what the trauma is or whatever the vision you got going on in your mind or whatever, you sometimes you just have to say it. You know what I'm saying? Just get it out. And even that, it's just you want somebody else to hear it instead of you hearing it, you saying it to yourself. You know what I'm saying? You just want to see how it sounds to somebody else, or it's just it's just different factors sometimes, but I absolutely find therapy and therapeutic within the people I know. Like even within my my son, and it's crazy for me because that whole experience is therapeutic for me because my relationship with my dad, and I know how therapeutic it was for him. And it just falls on me without me trying, or that's like that's like my safe space. That's therapeutic. Me and me and little, like everybody would tell me, man, you're your son with you all the time. I mean, that's my that's my sanity, that's my safe space. You know what I'm saying? So I definitely agree with you with opening up to like people you know, because I can talk to him about stuff knowing that he don't really understand it in totality, but his answer is gonna be so honest, like by default, you know what I'm saying? That I'd be like, well, yeah, maybe you're right.
SPEAKER_07I think it resonates more for me. I mean, I speak, like I said, I speak for myself, I don't speak for the next person. Um, for me, like I said, it's just if you're going through what I'm going through, yeah, then I think that that this conversation is gonna be very meaningful. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_06At the end of the day, sometimes you can you can like us like brothers that's been through what we've been through, and meeting somebody that's been through what we've been through, sometimes it just it just validates that conversation. And you need that.
SPEAKER_07And one more thing, I'm a numbers guy. Yeah, I love numbers. So for me, once again, I was a juvenile when I went to prison. I was sentenced to life, meaning I was never supposed to be here. You know, I was sentenced in 1995 to life in prison. No, no parole, no nothing in Virginia. And I was pardoned by the governor in 2022. Released the following day, no re-entry, no nothing, which is all good. I went from having a life sentence, life sentence one day and the next day I'm free. I try to explain this to people. In this country, it was about approximately at the time when uh you know uh advocacy started coming around for juveniles, uh, it was approximately about 26 to 2,700 juveniles serving life sentences in this country. I'm like the 1,200 juvenile now out of that 26 that is home. And it's 250 million people incarcerated, about 2.5 million people serving life sentences, meaning adults. Where do I fit in this equation? 1,100, probably 1,300 right now. That's home after being locked up as a juvenile serving a life sentence. That means that I've been in prison longer than I've been out here. That means that I I I was surviving the whole time. That I was in prison. But I learned, I found myself. But at the same time, I didn't do this just through basically waking up every morning and going to a therapist. I didn't do this, you know what I'm saying, by waking up every morning and going to talk to a counselor. You know what I mean? And I went to school, I got my GED. You know who was my tutors in school? It wasn't a teacher, it was Jesse. You feel me? That taught me how to multiply, that taught me how to divide, that taught taught me how to read, you know. So it's a lot of things for me when I talk about to that, to that point that I can give Jesse his flowers because he's what got me through in prison. You know, his wisdom, same thing with the guys that I can mention. I know a lot of guys right now that still behind the walls, that Jesse could probably say, and you as well, say those are my mentors. Yeah. You know, and when you say that, you stand enough to say that. What is a mentor to you? A person that guided you to do the right thing and not the wrong thing. A person that told you, hey, listen, man, just take a deep breath. Go in the cell. You don't have to do this, you know what I'm saying? I'm not taking away nothing from the therapist. I'm telling you. You know what I mean? But who got me through this life sentence? It was guys like Jesse. It was guys like you. It was guys like you. Feel me? It was guys like myself.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_07You know what I mean? So, you know, I think that was sincere's way of seeing things because we both went to a therapist when we was out here. Everybody was saying, hey, look, you you have to, you have to. It just wasn't for us.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. You know, it's definitely not for everybody.
SPEAKER_05So And you gotta find the right person, too. It's still about finding the right person, that connection, everything. But another just one more thing, just touching on this, like the peer support. I'm a peer support specialist, you know, and I take a lot of stuff home. It's never no days off. I see people at the corner store, I see people wherever. Because they I know that I influence people, and that's the whole reason why I'm even doing this right here. So because I know how many people we're gonna touch, everybody that's in this room, you know what I mean? But it is it's draining, it's hard. And just knowing the therapist field and how the lack of and everything, and being able to connect with the right person does mean a lot, you know what I mean? So I definitely reiterate that. Um, I just we kind of touched on how we want to keep Sincere Allah's legacy alive. I definitely just if anybody had anything else they want to touch on, you know what I mean? I'm I'm always keeping spirit alive, man. Um, you know, whether we had to come back to this a couple years, a couple, not even a couple years, couple months, whatever it is, or whatever events that we can do. Um, if y'all want to touch on anything or any um memorable moments or just anything that you want to say, you know, before we wrap up, um, you know, be my guest. I appreciate y'all.
SPEAKER_07Nah, definitely appreciate you, man. And um what's your name again?
SPEAKER_05Rico.
SPEAKER_07Rico, I apologize, you know, for giving us the space and time. Um sincere, man, to me, man. He's always gonna be a brother, man. He's always gonna be my brother, man, you know, my mentor, you know, someone that, you know, that I'm definitely gonna miss, but uh also, you know, just you know, his companionship, man, just that presence of his, man. You know what I mean, coming into the apartment. I live, I I got me in one bedroom now, you know what I'm saying? So I still have a lot of his stuff just laying around, man. So every time I look around, he's there, you know. Uh uh I find myself talking to him from time to time. I guess that's what you're supposed to do, you know. Um if you still, you know what I'm saying, have that sort of relationship with him, man. Um one thing that I want people to understand, man, that mental health is real, man, you know. And and the best way to combat that, man, is by speaking, man, by talking, by having these communications, by having these conversations that a lot of people don't want to have. So I encourage everyone, man, you know, to have these conversations, even if they feel so uncomfortable, man, still have them. You know, um for me it's it's it's it's it's it's a relief, man. I I'm able to express it and just let it be there, just let it go right there and let it stay there. So yeah, that's what I want to take away from this conversation. And also just a remembrance of having Sincere round. Even everybody talks so highly of him, man. It just remember it just reminds me who he was. You know. So thank you.
SPEAKER_02You're welcome, bro. You know, I I go back to um the question of uh whether he would have been happier if he had gone in a different direction. Direction. And you know, we work with kids in the juvenile center, and he came, he came to see the kids a number of times. They loved him. I I think about that thing, it was a really happy moment for me. And everybody always wants to see stories of somebody coming out and being like sincere and being on the front page and being on stage. And one of the happiest moments for me was I walked into Wegman's late one night. The girl I was taking wanted me to go get a bottle of wine, and one of the kids, rather than sitting in the juvenile center, was sitting there bagging groceries, and he was laughing and he was smiling. And I just stopped and he looked at me and I looked at him and I just kind of nodded. And I couldn't have imagined anything that would make me happier because he was free. He was in his life, he was he was working, he was doing, and I think that's what I want for people. Like when I work with people who are still inside, or when I work with people when they're getting out, it's if people want to go into this work, I think that's beautiful. If people want to go be a stockbroker, I think that's beautiful. If people want to go work at Wegmans, I think I just want to see people be able to live their lives. And that's what I wish Sincere had been able to do. And I wish in some days, like that's what I wonder. Like, what would that look like for me? And so in some ways, I think carrying this legacy on is going in to talk to the kids, going to do things he cared about. But I think it's also trying to live my best life that I feel like in some ways he never felt like he had the permission to live.
SPEAKER_06That's the for sure.
SPEAKER_01So I always got stuff. So I I think the the most important thing is we always kept in touch with that kid that was start working at Wegman's because it wasn't like us to just stop the communication. We always kind of kept in touch, and like I'm talking about texting, checking in, coming up here. Um he used to all like like one of the things in the the video was freedom ain't free. And like he he pretty much was tortured for for four years with people trying to control his life and and dictate what he did and things like that. So it it's my duty um as as a friend, as someone who loved him like dearly to keep this mission going. Like next month is Mental Health Awareness Month, June is men's mental health awareness month. Um, we will uplift the hotline in the website in his name and in his honor. We will have the conversations, we will work on policy around certain things. One of our legislators is um working on getting a license plate for suicide um awareness or prevention. Um, but the biggest thing that he cared about the most, that he always fought for, and and one of the last messages he sent me was get second look to the finish line. So it's a heavy thing. Um, but I know that that's what meant the most to him. And and that was the most selfless thing he could do. We fought every every year. We went into the General Assembly every year, and I remember January 31st, 2024, um delegate Ray Cousins was a freshman in the General Assembly and she carried our bill. I think Senator Deeds carried it on the um on the uh Senate side. But we were standing there as as survivors and people who also have been impacted by these mass incarceration systems fighting for people were left behind. And we gave our testimony, and like for people who don't know, I've lost I'm probably at 30, um, um but 20 plus loved ones to gun violence, including domestic violence situations. One of my one of my um back in 2018, November 17, 2018, my childhood friend and her 15-year-old son were killed in a domestic violence situation by her husband, and it was a death penalty eligible case. And I still advocated for eliminating the death penalty because I know the history and the state and how black people are impacted by that system. Um my three-month-old cousin and her mother were killed by the same bullet in Bell Atlantic apartments. They named the street after her, but none of the legislators who do not relate to these systems could see it in their hearts to see us as survivors, as well as people who um advocated for change in these systems. He still showed up relentlessly, tired, uh, exhausted. Every day he would show up, and like we were um, you know, people always call us the dynamic duo. We're shoulder to shoulder in this fight in these streets on these planes. Like, you know, we we did so many things together that people don't know about. But it's gonna be my duty to make sure that people knew what he did and what he stood for because going to college campuses, like we used to go talk to Dr. Z class at Virginia State. We would go to Norfolk State, we would go like to Virginia Tech. We go all across the country having conversations. Um and like for like people don't know, like Sincere got with Brendan, who was his attorney, who helped with this clemency packet, and he didn't qualify for the um the redemption projects program. Brendan just saw something in him and took his case on pro bono, and that's how he ended up getting home. Like he made such an impact on people from behind the wall and outside that um, you know, he he deserves to remain uplifted. And I'll do my duty, we'll do our parts to push like legislation to um prioritize behavioral health support for people who are leaving incarceration to provide the space for ourselves. We have case that's starting next month, which we did, we did our own thing. We took it into our own hands to say instead of allowing people to go into mentorship for youth, because everybody wants to save the youth, and nobody wants to save themselves first. Nobody wants to get their foundation built first. So we created case together and we have a copyright application there for this program. But we graduated our first class April 15th of last year, and um some of them went on to work in schools and mentor youth and work with young people, but nobody thinks about saving yourselves first and prioritizing yourselves first. So we're gonna put a strong emphasis on self-care and behavioral health, and whether that looked like talking to a professional or talking to a friend or or getting a tape recorder and talking to yourself and playing it back or journaling or whatever you gotta do, you have to make sure that you are prioritizing getting the things out that are keeping you stalled and stuck in a in a system. And a lot of people are not used to that. A lot of people don't trust, a lot of people don't know who to, but just like you say, it's important to find a therapist that's the right therapist, because it took a lot for me to find a person that I really could like feel comfortable communicating with and not feel like I'm just talking to a person and getting this out the way. But sometimes it's my best friend who holds all my stuff. She don't know nothing about justice, she don't know anything about this cycle. We talk, she don't even vote. I know y'all can't believe it, knowing who I am, but like she knows nothing about this system, but the least she can do is listen to me when I vent and drop it, and I don't have to worry about hearing about it through somebody else, right? So it's important to find somebody. Find somebody to hold space and don't be so selfish that you don't also hold space for them. Because while we we talk about people holding the weight, sometimes that weight gets heavy and they need somebody to pick it up for them. So also be mindful of the people that you're leaning on. Reciprocate, right? So um, yeah, we're gonna keep working and and you're gonna always, like, if you see me, he's with us. Like we got the we got the urn jewelry. Angel can't figure his, but he got it. Um but like this this is sincere. Like this is sincere. Like he's with us all the time, and uh, you know, we're gonna carry, we're gonna carry that part. And you know, it gets real quiet after the service, after, you know, he's been returned to the earth and things like that. But the people who are like closest to him and dearest to him will make sure that we keep carrying his legacy on.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I'm gonna definitely say like um anything and everything that I can do to keep his legacy going, I am he's he's living in me. I can honestly say that. Um also my son, his middle name is Sincere. Uh so and it I would never forget Sincere. Like he impacted, he impacted my life, you know what I mean? And um It was an honor to meet him and um everybody that's that's working with him too, just to hear the words. Um and like I said, I was just at a conference and the and um it was uh it was a sister from reform that um had worked with him, and I had been in the room with her or whatnot, and just heard her little spill or whatnot in the workshop, and then um something just tied, like you know, you could just feel like I came in the room late a little bit or whatever, and it was just something that tied us, and then I I was like, Did you know sincere? And she was just like, you know, it just touched her so much. And she was at she was actually at the memorial and service and all that too. It's a temptation tonight. Everything that's the Florida colonizer. For sure, yeah. But um, if you wanted anybody else want to touch on anything before we close out, nah man, man.
SPEAKER_07So I'll be able to be here, man. Thank you.
SPEAKER_06I mean, appreciate y'all for coming for sure.
SPEAKER_07Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Freedom for more freedom, freedom for us. Freedom isn't giving so for freedom.
SPEAKER_09Change a couple of letters, and we change a couple of freedom again, freedom, free again, and we're freaking