{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":14.481,"endTime":15.181,"body":"Hello."},{"startTime":15.181,"endTime":20.42,"body":"Welcome to our from the computer"},{"startTime":15.181,"endTime":20.42,"body":"tech history podcast"},{"startTime":20.42,"endTime":24.524,"body":"about alternative"},{"startTime":20.42,"endTime":24.524,"body":"computing histories, social histories."},{"startTime":24.624,"endTime":27.16,"body":"Camila I don't know if we have"},{"startTime":27.16,"endTime":30.797,"body":"a better explanation of what this is,"},{"startTime":27.16,"endTime":30.797,"body":"but I think that's good."},{"startTime":30.797,"endTime":36.302,"body":"And I think, you know, maybe at some point"},{"startTime":30.797,"endTime":36.302,"body":"we don't have to explain ourselves."},{"startTime":36.369,"endTime":40.707,"body":"Hopefully we'll get to that stage."},{"startTime":40.774,"endTime":42.108,"body":"Ana Here"},{"startTime":42.108,"endTime":46.312,"body":"I run external pages and Internet"},{"startTime":42.108,"endTime":46.312,"body":"art gallery"},{"startTime":46.312,"endTime":50.45,"body":"and I develop websites and produce"},{"startTime":46.312,"endTime":50.45,"body":"online tech courses."},{"startTime":50.45,"endTime":52.185,"body":"And Camila's here, too."},{"startTime":52.185,"endTime":54.12,"body":"Hello, Camila. Hello."},{"startTime":54.12,"endTime":56.222,"body":"How's New York and everything?"},{"startTime":56.222,"endTime":59.092,"body":"Yeah, New York's good."},{"startTime":59.092,"endTime":60.96,"body":"Happy Valentine's Day."},{"startTime":60.96,"endTime":65.231,"body":"Valentine's Day"},{"startTime":60.96,"endTime":65.231,"body":"to all of those who celebrate yesterday."},{"startTime":65.265,"endTime":67.167,"body":"I think when this comes out."},{"startTime":67.167,"endTime":70.503,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":67.167,"endTime":70.503,"body":"I don't celebrate Valentine's Day, but"},{"startTime":70.57,"endTime":74.107,"body":"United States loves Valentine's Day."},{"startTime":74.174,"endTime":76.209,"body":"It's just it's everywhere."},{"startTime":76.209,"endTime":77.644,"body":"It's all about love."},{"startTime":77.644,"endTime":80.18,"body":"You United States. All about love."},{"startTime":80.18,"endTime":82.582,"body":"Even the thing that's weird to me"},{"startTime":82.582,"endTime":86.786,"body":"is that it's all it's like things"},{"startTime":82.582,"endTime":86.786,"body":"for your teacher."},{"startTime":86.853,"endTime":91.391,"body":"Things for, like, non romantic comics."},{"startTime":91.458,"endTime":93.526,"body":"It is platonic love."},{"startTime":93.526,"endTime":98.264,"body":"But in the container of,"},{"startTime":93.526,"endTime":98.264,"body":"like this, the symbols of romantic love."},{"startTime":98.298,"endTime":102.969,"body":"So it's it's like, Dear teacher,"},{"startTime":98.298,"endTime":102.969,"body":"happy Valentine's Day."},{"startTime":102.969,"endTime":106.906,"body":"But it's in like a red love heart"},{"startTime":107.006,"endTime":110.577,"body":"with, like, flowers and shit."},{"startTime":110.643,"endTime":115.115,"body":"For me, I read that is very different"},{"startTime":110.643,"endTime":115.115,"body":"to obviously what people here write it."},{"startTime":115.181,"endTime":117.35,"body":"Yeah, but it's also kind of boring."},{"startTime":117.35,"endTime":120.954,"body":"I just want Valentine's Day to be, like,"},{"startTime":117.35,"endTime":120.954,"body":"sexy again."},{"startTime":121.087,"endTime":124.557,"body":"Just make it about sex."},{"startTime":124.657,"endTime":128.094,"body":"That's days ago."},{"startTime":128.161,"endTime":129.295,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":129.295,"endTime":132.799,"body":"Get these children out of here."},{"startTime":132.899,"endTime":133.8,"body":"How. How are you?"},{"startTime":133.8,"endTime":136.803,"body":"How is Valentine's Day in London?"},{"startTime":136.803,"endTime":137.403,"body":"Good."},{"startTime":137.403,"endTime":141.174,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":137.403,"endTime":141.174,"body":"I think Valentine's Day in London is,"},{"startTime":141.241,"endTime":144.377,"body":"I don't know, maybe it's just me,"},{"startTime":141.241,"endTime":144.377,"body":"but it feels a little non-existent"},{"startTime":144.377,"endTime":146.846,"body":"in terms of its marketing."},{"startTime":144.377,"endTime":146.846,"body":"I don't really see it."},{"startTime":146.846,"endTime":150.183,"body":"I still see, like, chocolates"},{"startTime":146.846,"endTime":150.183,"body":"that are Christmas themes."},{"startTime":150.45,"endTime":151.351,"body":"So what are we."},{"startTime":151.351,"endTime":154.02,"body":"What are we looking at"},{"startTime":151.351,"endTime":154.02,"body":"for our second episode?"},{"startTime":154.02,"endTime":155.288,"body":"What are we looking at this week?"},{"startTime":155.288,"endTime":161.628,"body":"Yes. So today we'll talk about"},{"startTime":155.288,"endTime":161.628,"body":"how apparently"},{"startTime":161.728,"endTime":167.066,"body":"an alternative version of the Internet in"},{"startTime":161.728,"endTime":167.066,"body":"the USSR was developed where"},{"startTime":167.133,"endTime":171.137,"body":"a lot of fits and starts"},{"startTime":167.133,"endTime":171.137,"body":"due to various competing"},{"startTime":171.137,"endTime":175.008,"body":"private interests,"},{"startTime":171.137,"endTime":175.008,"body":"which is a little ironic."},{"startTime":175.141,"endTime":180.747,"body":"And yeah, just to add a whole extra layer"},{"startTime":175.141,"endTime":180.747,"body":"of that type of irony,"},{"startTime":180.747,"endTime":186.486,"body":"this was completely distinct from"},{"startTime":180.747,"endTime":186.486,"body":"that of America's state funded ARPANET,"},{"startTime":186.553,"endTime":189.422,"body":"where technologists worked"},{"startTime":189.422,"endTime":192.425,"body":"much more collaboratively"},{"startTime":189.422,"endTime":192.425,"body":"than we would think."},{"startTime":192.525,"endTime":196.93,"body":"So OGAs means national automated system"},{"startTime":196.93,"endTime":201.067,"body":"for computation and information"},{"startTime":196.93,"endTime":201.067,"body":"processing, where say it again."},{"startTime":201.067,"endTime":204.537,"body":"But in Russian"},{"startTime":204.604,"endTime":206.206,"body":"I can try."},{"startTime":206.206,"endTime":210.376,"body":"I know Polish for Russian,"},{"startTime":206.206,"endTime":210.376,"body":"it's a whole other thing."},{"startTime":210.476,"endTime":216.549,"body":"It was a Soviet project"},{"startTime":210.476,"endTime":216.549,"body":"that started in 1962"},{"startTime":216.616,"endTime":219.485,"body":"and it aimed to kind of create"},{"startTime":219.485,"endTime":223.723,"body":"like a nationwide information network."},{"startTime":223.823,"endTime":226.593,"body":"And it was a three tier"},{"startTime":226.593,"endTime":230.697,"body":"centralized network"},{"startTime":226.593,"endTime":230.697,"body":"that communicated in real time"},{"startTime":230.697,"endTime":235.768,"body":"using the existing"},{"startTime":230.697,"endTime":235.768,"body":"telephone infrastructure."},{"startTime":235.835,"endTime":239.472,"body":"And it had kind of one"},{"startTime":235.835,"endTime":239.472,"body":"computer center in Moscow."},{"startTime":239.539,"endTime":244.477,"body":"It had 200 mid-level centers"},{"startTime":239.539,"endTime":244.477,"body":"and other major cities."},{"startTime":244.711,"endTime":250.316,"body":"And then on the peripheries of that,"},{"startTime":244.711,"endTime":250.316,"body":"it had up to 20,000 local terminals"},{"startTime":250.316,"endTime":254.487,"body":"in economically significant locations"},{"startTime":250.316,"endTime":254.487,"body":"where they could kind of like"},{"startTime":254.52,"endTime":257.957,"body":"input their data from the"},{"startTime":257.957,"endTime":261.894,"body":"the like labor that they were extracting"},{"startTime":257.957,"endTime":261.894,"body":"and the resources that they had."},{"startTime":261.961,"endTime":265.598,"body":"So so this was similar to cyber, right."},{"startTime":265.598,"endTime":269.569,"body":"Which was like connecting factories"},{"startTime":265.598,"endTime":269.569,"body":"and sort of getting information"},{"startTime":269.569,"endTime":271.337,"body":"from those factories. Yeah."},{"startTime":271.337,"endTime":274.641,"body":"To create a planned"},{"startTime":271.337,"endTime":274.641,"body":"economy. Exactly. Okay."},{"startTime":274.741,"endTime":278.678,"body":"And it it's funny"},{"startTime":274.741,"endTime":278.678,"body":"because it really reminds me of the same"},{"startTime":278.678,"endTime":284.317,"body":"like economic structure"},{"startTime":278.678,"endTime":284.317,"body":"as the horizontal autonomy that's like"},{"startTime":284.384,"endTime":290.79,"body":"implemented by the Zapatista communities"},{"startTime":284.384,"endTime":290.79,"body":"in Mexico, which are influenced by"},{"startTime":290.857,"endTime":293.226,"body":"by like anarchist Marxism."},{"startTime":293.226,"endTime":298.031,"body":"And it's a cooperative model"},{"startTime":293.226,"endTime":298.031,"body":"with kind of syndicalist aspects"},{"startTime":298.031,"endTime":303.436,"body":"where the means of production"},{"startTime":298.031,"endTime":303.436,"body":"are cooperatively owned by the public,"},{"startTime":303.436,"endTime":307.607,"body":"and there are no supervisors"},{"startTime":303.436,"endTime":307.607,"body":"or owners of the property."},{"startTime":307.707,"endTime":310.41,"body":"And similarly to the structure"},{"startTime":310.41,"endTime":313.413,"body":"of Ojai, yes,"},{"startTime":310.41,"endTime":313.413,"body":"there are three levels of government."},{"startTime":313.413,"endTime":317.083,"body":"So there's like the local government,"},{"startTime":313.413,"endTime":317.083,"body":"which is like a group"},{"startTime":317.083,"endTime":320.086,"body":"of comrades and families"},{"startTime":320.153,"endTime":322.355,"body":"that all sort of like live together."},{"startTime":322.355,"endTime":326.492,"body":"And then there's the municipal government,"},{"startTime":322.355,"endTime":326.492,"body":"which is actually just a network"},{"startTime":326.492,"endTime":329.462,"body":"of the representatives"},{"startTime":326.492,"endTime":329.462,"body":"of the local government,"},{"startTime":329.696,"endTime":332.332,"body":"of the local groups."},{"startTime":332.332,"endTime":336.836,"body":"And these representatives are voted in"},{"startTime":332.332,"endTime":336.836,"body":"and then they in the municipal government,"},{"startTime":336.836,"endTime":341.774,"body":"they like resolve problems that could not"},{"startTime":336.836,"endTime":341.774,"body":"be resolved by the villages."},{"startTime":341.874,"endTime":346.012,"body":"And then on the inside of that,"},{"startTime":341.874,"endTime":346.012,"body":"in the center of that, there's like"},{"startTime":346.012,"endTime":351.284,"body":"the zonal level, which is where advanced"},{"startTime":346.012,"endTime":351.284,"body":"issues are resolved."},{"startTime":351.351,"endTime":355.621,"body":"I think like that's"},{"startTime":351.351,"endTime":355.621,"body":"a really interesting comparison."},{"startTime":355.688,"endTime":359.025,"body":"But I do think it's important to know"},{"startTime":355.688,"endTime":359.025,"body":"that like when you're looking"},{"startTime":359.025,"endTime":362.929,"body":"at the Zapatistas against like the USSR,"},{"startTime":363.096,"endTime":366.999,"body":"the Zapatistas are about"},{"startTime":363.096,"endTime":366.999,"body":"like they're in service"},{"startTime":366.999,"endTime":371.838,"body":"of renegotiating or like rebelling"},{"startTime":366.999,"endTime":371.838,"body":"against power structures of the state"},{"startTime":371.938,"endTime":374.907,"body":"and that their movement isn't"},{"startTime":371.938,"endTime":374.907,"body":"really my understanding anyway of them"},{"startTime":374.907,"endTime":378.945,"body":"is it's not really about like power,"},{"startTime":374.907,"endTime":378.945,"body":"but more about"},{"startTime":379.045,"endTime":384.584,"body":"community building and collectivity"},{"startTime":379.045,"endTime":384.584,"body":"and sort of like reordering society"},{"startTime":384.584,"endTime":388.554,"body":"to be more just with from a"},{"startTime":384.584,"endTime":388.554,"body":"from a grassroots level upwards,"},{"startTime":388.621,"endTime":390.39,"body":"you know, more"},{"startTime":388.621,"endTime":390.39,"body":"you know more about it than I do."},{"startTime":390.39,"endTime":392.425,"body":"That was my kind of understanding."},{"startTime":392.425,"endTime":393.659,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":393.659,"endTime":397.897,"body":"I think I was just thinking about it a lot"},{"startTime":393.659,"endTime":397.897,"body":"because of this"},{"startTime":397.964,"endTime":400.8,"body":"this implementation of direct democracy"},{"startTime":400.8,"endTime":404.27,"body":"through like a centralized system."},{"startTime":404.37,"endTime":406.639,"body":"I guess I was more like hinting"},{"startTime":406.639,"endTime":411.811,"body":"to the, like technical structure of Ojai"},{"startTime":406.639,"endTime":411.811,"body":"and the idea of it"},{"startTime":412.011,"endTime":414.781,"body":"being a centralized system"},{"startTime":412.011,"endTime":414.781,"body":"that maintains horizontal."},{"startTime":414.781,"endTime":418.05,"body":"It's similar to cyber Bresson"},{"startTime":414.781,"endTime":418.05,"body":"rather than like"},{"startTime":418.05,"endTime":422.054,"body":"the political structure of Ojai,"},{"startTime":418.05,"endTime":422.054,"body":"because that is completely,"},{"startTime":422.155,"endTime":428.461,"body":"completely different to horizontal ism"},{"startTime":422.155,"endTime":428.461,"body":"and syndicalism and all that."},{"startTime":428.528,"endTime":431.03,"body":"I guess also in the same way with Ojai."},{"startTime":431.03,"endTime":436.402,"body":"Yes, you had everyday enterprise"},{"startTime":431.03,"endTime":436.402,"body":"workers, managers and planners"},{"startTime":436.402,"endTime":441.374,"body":"nationwide who could kind of communicate"},{"startTime":436.402,"endTime":441.374,"body":"through a center that constituted"},{"startTime":441.374,"endTime":445.011,"body":"the command economy"},{"startTime":441.374,"endTime":445.011,"body":"under under the guidance"},{"startTime":445.011,"endTime":449.682,"body":"of the Politburo"},{"startTime":445.011,"endTime":449.682,"body":"in in the case of Ojai. Yes."},{"startTime":449.782,"endTime":452.852,"body":"Which is existed at the center"},{"startTime":452.852,"endTime":457.79,"body":"and collaborated with the peripheral"},{"startTime":452.852,"endTime":457.79,"body":"kind of everyday workers"},{"startTime":457.79,"endTime":461.928,"body":"like farmers and factory"},{"startTime":457.79,"endTime":461.928,"body":"workers and managers and all that."},{"startTime":462.028,"endTime":465.498,"body":"It almost seems like the potential of this"},{"startTime":465.498,"endTime":470.403,"body":"could have been really radical"},{"startTime":465.498,"endTime":470.403,"body":"for the USSR."},{"startTime":470.47,"endTime":474.674,"body":"And ideologically and technically,"},{"startTime":470.47,"endTime":474.674,"body":"it was just maybe"},{"startTime":474.674,"endTime":479.679,"body":"like too advanced for many politicians"},{"startTime":474.674,"endTime":479.679,"body":"under the regime"},{"startTime":479.745,"endTime":482.582,"body":"to accept, which for a lot of them"},{"startTime":482.582,"endTime":486.352,"body":"they like served as obstacles"},{"startTime":482.582,"endTime":486.352,"body":"in the development of this project."},{"startTime":486.352,"endTime":490.857,"body":"Because Ojai was eventually"},{"startTime":490.923,"endTime":494.861,"body":"denied necessary funding in 1970"},{"startTime":494.927,"endTime":498.164,"body":"and it was never even tested"},{"startTime":494.927,"endTime":498.164,"body":"by the public."},{"startTime":498.264,"endTime":501.067,"body":"It was founded by the Soviets."},{"startTime":501.067,"endTime":504.036,"body":"Big Math study."},{"startTime":504.103,"endTime":507.073,"body":"His name is Victor Glushko."},{"startTime":507.073,"endTime":511.31,"body":"He was like a famous mathematician"},{"startTime":507.073,"endTime":511.31,"body":"and founder of i.t."},{"startTime":511.31,"endTime":512.745,"body":"And russia."},{"startTime":512.745,"endTime":516.782,"body":"And like he"},{"startTime":512.745,"endTime":516.782,"body":"he founded soviet cybernetics as well,"},{"startTime":516.782,"endTime":519.785,"body":"which I'll kind of get to later."},{"startTime":519.986,"endTime":523.089,"body":"But he was the main proponent"},{"startTime":519.986,"endTime":523.089,"body":"of Ojai. Yes."},{"startTime":523.089,"endTime":526.092,"body":"And he set up the OGAs proposal"},{"startTime":526.325,"endTime":528.127,"body":"and he essentially wanted"},{"startTime":528.127,"endTime":533.299,"body":"to move the Soviet Union"},{"startTime":528.127,"endTime":533.299,"body":"towards a money less economy"},{"startTime":533.299,"endTime":539.071,"body":"so that Ojai would provide a system"},{"startTime":533.299,"endTime":539.071,"body":"for electronic payments."},{"startTime":539.138,"endTime":542.141,"body":"Wow. Which is crazy to think of it"},{"startTime":542.375,"endTime":545.211,"body":"already at that time, like four years."},{"startTime":545.211,"endTime":548.014,"body":"This in 1962."},{"startTime":548.014,"endTime":552.852,"body":"So they were thinking of structures"},{"startTime":548.014,"endTime":552.852,"body":"like PayPal and"},{"startTime":552.952,"endTime":555.154,"body":"and cryptocurrency"},{"startTime":555.154,"endTime":557.723,"body":"all the way back in the Soviet times."},{"startTime":557.723,"endTime":562.395,"body":"But yeah, it failed primarily because of,"},{"startTime":562.562,"endTime":567.7,"body":"you know, just managerial"},{"startTime":562.562,"endTime":567.7,"body":"bureaucratic infighting,"},{"startTime":567.767,"endTime":570.87,"body":"also widespread, unregulated competition"},{"startTime":570.87,"endTime":575.808,"body":"amongst self"},{"startTime":570.87,"endTime":575.808,"body":"interested institutions and bureaucrats."},{"startTime":575.908,"endTime":579.278,"body":"And the Soviet Union"},{"startTime":575.908,"endTime":579.278,"body":"was really at the time in the seventies,"},{"startTime":579.278,"endTime":584.55,"body":"it was kind of collapsing within the"},{"startTime":579.278,"endTime":584.55,"body":"the system and also other key actors"},{"startTime":584.55,"endTime":588.387,"body":"that saw it as a"},{"startTime":584.55,"endTime":588.387,"body":"as excessive central control"},{"startTime":588.387,"endTime":591.657,"body":"or like a threat to the Ministry"},{"startTime":588.387,"endTime":591.657,"body":"of Finance."},{"startTime":591.724,"endTime":593.092,"body":"Oh, interesting. Okay."},{"startTime":593.092,"endTime":598.965,"body":"So, so so people were like, this is going"},{"startTime":593.092,"endTime":598.965,"body":"to put us out of out of a job."},{"startTime":599.065,"endTime":602.602,"body":"Like if you if you"},{"startTime":599.065,"endTime":602.602,"body":"if you make some money in this economy,"},{"startTime":602.602,"endTime":606.639,"body":"what are we going to how are we going"},{"startTime":602.602,"endTime":606.639,"body":"to be positioned within this?"},{"startTime":606.706,"endTime":609.875,"body":"Yeah, it was so political"},{"startTime":606.706,"endTime":609.875,"body":"when this was being built"},{"startTime":609.976,"endTime":613.279,"body":"and it was definitely"},{"startTime":609.976,"endTime":613.279,"body":"used as like a power tool."},{"startTime":613.279,"endTime":615.348,"body":"And obviously that was a threat"},{"startTime":615.348,"endTime":618.951,"body":"to not just people's jobs"},{"startTime":615.348,"endTime":618.951,"body":"but also entire departments."},{"startTime":618.951,"endTime":619.518,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":619.518,"endTime":625.691,"body":"And this sort of gap between like what the"},{"startTime":619.518,"endTime":625.691,"body":"mathematicians or scientists want to do"},{"startTime":625.758,"endTime":627.093,"body":"and then what the government or"},{"startTime":627.093,"endTime":631.163,"body":"like the specific people in the government"},{"startTime":627.093,"endTime":631.163,"body":"are willing are willing to do."},{"startTime":631.263,"endTime":633.666,"body":"Yeah, there's a massive gap"},{"startTime":631.263,"endTime":633.666,"body":"between those two things."},{"startTime":633.666,"endTime":639.205,"body":"Unfortunately, as sometimes that happens"},{"startTime":633.666,"endTime":639.205,"body":"quite often in politics."},{"startTime":639.271,"endTime":641.574,"body":"Nikolai Sutter Rinko"},{"startTime":641.574,"endTime":646.145,"body":"then took the project over in 1964"},{"startTime":646.212,"endTime":650.65,"body":"and attempted"},{"startTime":646.212,"endTime":650.65,"body":"to build an information network"},{"startTime":650.75,"endTime":655.955,"body":"that could be used"},{"startTime":650.75,"endTime":655.955,"body":"for the Soviet Union's planned economy."},{"startTime":656.022,"endTime":657.156,"body":"But it was very different"},{"startTime":657.156,"endTime":660.926,"body":"to kind of Glushko initial idea,"},{"startTime":660.993,"endTime":666.032,"body":"and it was successfully carried out"},{"startTime":660.993,"endTime":666.032,"body":"technically on a micro level,"},{"startTime":666.032,"endTime":670.036,"body":"but unfortunately"},{"startTime":666.032,"endTime":670.036,"body":"it didn't spread into wide use."},{"startTime":670.136,"endTime":674.54,"body":"So is this like second version still"},{"startTime":670.136,"endTime":674.54,"body":"considered Argus or is it a separate?"},{"startTime":674.64,"endTime":679.245,"body":"It did actually have different names"},{"startTime":674.64,"endTime":679.245,"body":"throughout the development,"},{"startTime":679.245,"endTime":684.617,"body":"but they were basically just different"},{"startTime":679.245,"endTime":684.617,"body":"versions of the of the project."},{"startTime":684.717,"endTime":689.789,"body":"But it was a huge achievement"},{"startTime":684.717,"endTime":689.789,"body":"for Soviet cybernetics."},{"startTime":689.855,"endTime":692.558,"body":"The Soviet Union had a lot"},{"startTime":692.558,"endTime":697.863,"body":"of dominant scientific ideologies"},{"startTime":692.558,"endTime":697.863,"body":"that nurtured the nation's"},{"startTime":697.863,"endTime":702.401,"body":"economic and political reforms"},{"startTime":697.863,"endTime":702.401,"body":"throughout time."},{"startTime":702.468,"endTime":706.739,"body":"And these sciences would come into contact"},{"startTime":706.739,"endTime":710.443,"body":"sometimes with cybernetics,"},{"startTime":706.739,"endTime":710.443,"body":"especially after Stalin's death,"},{"startTime":710.509,"endTime":714.346,"body":"because Stalin and his regime"},{"startTime":710.509,"endTime":714.346,"body":"hated cybernetics."},{"startTime":714.447,"endTime":718.884,"body":"They called it"},{"startTime":714.447,"endTime":718.884,"body":"American reactionary pseudoscience"},{"startTime":718.884,"endTime":726.058,"body":"and he even said it was like"},{"startTime":718.884,"endTime":726.058,"body":"a full embodiment of imperialist ideology."},{"startTime":726.125,"endTime":726.459,"body":"I mean,"},{"startTime":726.459,"endTime":729.762,"body":"yeah, like,"},{"startTime":726.459,"endTime":729.762,"body":"even though some cybernetic discourse"},{"startTime":729.762,"endTime":733.799,"body":"was kind of popping up around the globe"},{"startTime":733.866,"endTime":736.035,"body":"in different sort of centers, early"},{"startTime":736.035,"endTime":740.339,"body":"on, it was seen as very American"},{"startTime":736.035,"endTime":740.339,"body":"and even when"},{"startTime":740.406,"endTime":744.81,"body":"so you can look at like USSR cybernetics,"},{"startTime":740.406,"endTime":744.81,"body":"but also in France, in the UK,"},{"startTime":744.877,"endTime":748.814,"body":"that for them"},{"startTime":744.877,"endTime":748.814,"body":"to sort of fully accept cybernetics,"},{"startTime":748.814,"endTime":752.551,"body":"they ended up kind of reframing it"},{"startTime":748.814,"endTime":752.551,"body":"a little bit and making it their own"},{"startTime":752.551,"endTime":758.023,"body":"and connecting it with their own,"},{"startTime":752.551,"endTime":758.023,"body":"like national scientific"},{"startTime":758.124,"endTime":760.292,"body":"histories. Yeah."},{"startTime":760.292,"endTime":764.063,"body":"And I think with this specific case"},{"startTime":760.292,"endTime":764.063,"body":"of the Soviet Union,"},{"startTime":764.163,"endTime":768.0,"body":"yeah, like cybernetics had been seen"},{"startTime":764.163,"endTime":768.0,"body":"as this pseudoscience"},{"startTime":768.0,"endTime":771.604,"body":"and kind of this"},{"startTime":768.0,"endTime":771.604,"body":"anti United States rhetoric."},{"startTime":771.604,"endTime":774.64,"body":"But I think"},{"startTime":771.604,"endTime":774.64,"body":"like after the death of Stalin,"},{"startTime":774.64,"endTime":778.344,"body":"which was 1953, there"},{"startTime":778.444,"endTime":782.615,"body":"there was you're right, like there"},{"startTime":778.444,"endTime":782.615,"body":"was this move towards cybernetic theory"},{"startTime":782.681,"endTime":785.684,"body":"that eventually became part"},{"startTime":782.681,"endTime":785.684,"body":"of like more accepted"},{"startTime":785.918,"endTime":788.788,"body":"Soviet scientific discourse."},{"startTime":788.788,"endTime":792.925,"body":"That was kind of,"},{"startTime":788.788,"endTime":792.925,"body":"I think, also with the death of Stalin"},{"startTime":792.925,"endTime":798.464,"body":"being the the kind of page turner was that"},{"startTime":798.564,"endTime":799.231,"body":"there was this"},{"startTime":799.231,"endTime":803.903,"body":"kind of denouncement of this"},{"startTime":799.231,"endTime":803.903,"body":"like cult of personality around Stalin."},{"startTime":804.003,"endTime":808.107,"body":"And maybe like the way that cybernetics"},{"startTime":804.003,"endTime":808.107,"body":"looks"},{"startTime":808.174,"endTime":811.777,"body":"to create self-regulated systems"},{"startTime":811.844,"endTime":815.614,"body":"sort of fitted in with this new shift"},{"startTime":811.844,"endTime":815.614,"body":"in, in mindset."},{"startTime":815.681,"endTime":819.785,"body":"Yeah, it's very represented"},{"startTime":815.681,"endTime":819.785,"body":"of, of like modernism as well."},{"startTime":819.785,"endTime":823.589,"body":"I think of like how that affects"},{"startTime":823.789,"endTime":827.493,"body":"political ideologies,"},{"startTime":823.789,"endTime":827.493,"body":"what that means for political ideologies."},{"startTime":827.493,"endTime":831.63,"body":"Like it's funny how even though, you know,"},{"startTime":827.493,"endTime":831.63,"body":"cybernetics is a field"},{"startTime":831.63,"endTime":835.768,"body":"that can be applied to many things"},{"startTime":831.63,"endTime":835.768,"body":"and contexts,"},{"startTime":835.835,"endTime":840.673,"body":"national doctrines"},{"startTime":835.835,"endTime":840.673,"body":"would still find that difficult to accept."},{"startTime":840.673,"endTime":843.976,"body":"And it's almost like it's"},{"startTime":840.673,"endTime":843.976,"body":"too kind of powerful"},{"startTime":844.076,"endTime":847.713,"body":"and shapeshifting and scary"},{"startTime":844.076,"endTime":847.713,"body":"because of the fact that it's like,"},{"startTime":847.713,"endTime":851.584,"body":"so versatile,"},{"startTime":847.713,"endTime":851.584,"body":"like such a versatile field of study."},{"startTime":851.684,"endTime":854.186,"body":"It's funny"},{"startTime":851.684,"endTime":854.186,"body":"because I think, like, you're so right,"},{"startTime":854.186,"endTime":856.155,"body":"but you can also look at it"},{"startTime":854.186,"endTime":856.155,"body":"from the other side."},{"startTime":856.155,"endTime":860.893,"body":"So like with cybernetics, it is important"},{"startTime":856.155,"endTime":860.893,"body":"to look at, to sort of think of it"},{"startTime":860.893,"endTime":865.264,"body":"in relation to the era of its birth,"},{"startTime":860.893,"endTime":865.264,"body":"which is this like post-World War two."},{"startTime":865.331,"endTime":867.9,"body":"Yeah, this"},{"startTime":865.331,"endTime":867.9,"body":"desire for like self-regulated systems"},{"startTime":867.9,"endTime":873.138,"body":"against a confusing world,"},{"startTime":867.9,"endTime":873.138,"body":"confusing politically, socially,"},{"startTime":873.138,"endTime":878.31,"body":"scientifically, with this movement"},{"startTime":873.138,"endTime":878.31,"body":"towards more modern forms of science,"},{"startTime":878.31,"endTime":882.615,"body":"like things like quantum physics,"},{"startTime":878.31,"endTime":882.615,"body":"even stuff like game theory."},{"startTime":882.615,"endTime":885.384,"body":"And then of course,"},{"startTime":882.615,"endTime":885.384,"body":"like the rise of technology"},{"startTime":885.384,"endTime":888.821,"body":"and computing and so, well,"},{"startTime":885.384,"endTime":888.821,"body":"like cybernetics, because cybernetics"},{"startTime":888.821,"endTime":892.892,"body":"because it touches on"},{"startTime":888.821,"endTime":892.892,"body":"these things can be a little scary."},{"startTime":892.958,"endTime":896.595,"body":"And it was also sort of"},{"startTime":892.958,"endTime":896.595,"body":"like a bridging science,"},{"startTime":896.595,"endTime":900.9,"body":"maybe like it offered a controlled way"},{"startTime":896.595,"endTime":900.9,"body":"to navigate"},{"startTime":900.966,"endTime":905.638,"body":"these really quickly changing fields,"},{"startTime":900.966,"endTime":905.638,"body":"which is why."},{"startTime":905.671,"endTime":907.473,"body":"Yeah, I've seen it's like this"},{"startTime":905.671,"endTime":907.473,"body":"umbrella term."},{"startTime":907.473,"endTime":911.477,"body":"It draws from many, many different areas."},{"startTime":911.577,"endTime":913.445,"body":"But in that way"},{"startTime":911.577,"endTime":913.445,"body":"it's also kind of malleable."},{"startTime":913.445,"endTime":917.049,"body":"Malleable when it comes to defining"},{"startTime":913.445,"endTime":917.049,"body":"what it really is."},{"startTime":917.116,"endTime":918.284,"body":"Yeah, for sure."},{"startTime":918.284,"endTime":922.554,"body":"And it's almost like, I don't know,"},{"startTime":918.284,"endTime":922.554,"body":"I feel like it was kind of inevitable"},{"startTime":922.554,"endTime":927.059,"body":"that it would be taken over or taken up by"},{"startTime":927.126,"endTime":929.028,"body":"the political system because"},{"startTime":929.028,"endTime":932.264,"body":"after, like I said, after Stalin's death,"},{"startTime":932.364,"endTime":936.735,"body":"Khrushchev was inaugurated in 1955"},{"startTime":936.835,"endTime":940.272,"body":"and the articles on cybernetics"},{"startTime":940.272,"endTime":946.011,"body":"were starting to pop up"},{"startTime":940.272,"endTime":946.011,"body":"by various Soviet scientists,"},{"startTime":946.111,"endTime":947.813,"body":"he said that cybernetics"},{"startTime":947.813,"endTime":951.684,"body":"was imperative to Soviet science,"},{"startTime":951.75,"endTime":956.789,"body":"and cybernetics"},{"startTime":951.75,"endTime":956.789,"body":"really began to serve as an umbrella term"},{"startTime":956.789,"endTime":961.694,"body":"for previously maligned"},{"startTime":956.789,"endTime":961.694,"body":"areas of Soviet science,"},{"startTime":961.794,"endTime":967.833,"body":"such as structural"},{"startTime":961.794,"endTime":967.833,"body":"linguistics and genetics."},{"startTime":967.9,"endTime":970.502,"body":"And this liberalization caused"},{"startTime":970.502,"endTime":974.473,"body":"also the word cybernetics"},{"startTime":970.502,"endTime":974.473,"body":"to become a real buzz word"},{"startTime":974.54,"endTime":978.61,"body":"among career minded scientists,"},{"startTime":974.54,"endTime":978.61,"body":"which again represented"},{"startTime":978.61,"endTime":983.315,"body":"the economic shift,"},{"startTime":978.61,"endTime":983.315,"body":"I think, of the Soviet Union."},{"startTime":983.382,"endTime":985.451,"body":"I love thinking about"},{"startTime":985.451,"endTime":988.454,"body":"the sort of these buzzwords"},{"startTime":985.451,"endTime":988.454,"body":"that come out of cybernetics."},{"startTime":988.454,"endTime":992.891,"body":"I know that, like a lot of this research,"},{"startTime":988.454,"endTime":992.891,"body":"particularly in English about origins,"},{"startTime":992.891,"endTime":998.03,"body":"comes from the book How Not to Network"},{"startTime":992.891,"endTime":998.03,"body":"a Nation, which you suggested."},{"startTime":998.03,"endTime":1002.334,"body":"Benjamin Peters"},{"startTime":998.03,"endTime":1002.334,"body":"Yeah, yeah, it's really good. And"},{"startTime":1002.401,"endTime":1004.169,"body":"I there was like a little bit"},{"startTime":1004.169,"endTime":1008.24,"body":"of a discussion around these buzzwords and"},{"startTime":1008.307,"endTime":1011.51,"body":"I'm sort of paraphrasing, but"},{"startTime":1011.577,"endTime":1013.912,"body":"he talks about like words,"},{"startTime":1013.912,"endTime":1019.051,"body":"like information control, feedback"},{"startTime":1013.912,"endTime":1019.051,"body":"come from cybernetics"},{"startTime":1019.118,"endTime":1021.954,"body":"and also the prefix cyber"},{"startTime":1021.954,"endTime":1024.556,"body":"and the phrase in the loop."},{"startTime":1024.556,"endTime":1025.858,"body":"We love those."},{"startTime":1025.858,"endTime":1026.692,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1026.692,"endTime":1030.329,"body":"And the idea of the cyborg"},{"startTime":1026.692,"endTime":1030.329,"body":"as like the creature that is the human"},{"startTime":1030.329,"endTime":1033.465,"body":"and machine, even though like cybernetics"},{"startTime":1030.329,"endTime":1033.465,"body":"doesn't really look at look at that."},{"startTime":1033.465,"endTime":1036.668,"body":"But that kind of idea"},{"startTime":1033.465,"endTime":1036.668,"body":"came out of this period of time as well."},{"startTime":1036.769,"endTime":1039.171,"body":"Yeah, it's it's interesting. Yeah."},{"startTime":1039.171,"endTime":1043.008,"body":"I mean, it also kind of fully saturated"},{"startTime":1043.075,"endTime":1047.046,"body":"Soviet academia in the sixties"},{"startTime":1047.146,"endTime":1051.05,"body":"as Ness came into power to become"},{"startTime":1051.05,"endTime":1056.388,"body":"the regime's undisputed leader in 1970"},{"startTime":1051.05,"endTime":1056.388,"body":"and then Ogi,"},{"startTime":1056.455,"endTime":1061.46,"body":"as the development of"},{"startTime":1056.455,"endTime":1061.46,"body":"OGs kind of came to a halt,"},{"startTime":1061.527,"endTime":1062.861,"body":"which is a real shame"},{"startTime":1062.861,"endTime":1066.899,"body":"because"},{"startTime":1062.861,"endTime":1066.899,"body":"the USSR was on a technological beat"},{"startTime":1066.899,"endTime":1070.903,"body":"during the late fifties under Khrushchev."},{"startTime":1071.003,"endTime":1076.008,"body":"Not only did"},{"startTime":1071.003,"endTime":1076.008,"body":"he enable the initialization of OGs in 62,"},{"startTime":1076.008,"endTime":1081.28,"body":"but he also oversaw"},{"startTime":1076.008,"endTime":1081.28,"body":"the launch of Sputnik one in"},{"startTime":1081.38,"endTime":1084.616,"body":"October 1957"},{"startTime":1084.683,"endTime":1087.753,"body":"and this was like"},{"startTime":1084.683,"endTime":1087.753,"body":"the first artificial Earth satellite."},{"startTime":1087.753,"endTime":1089.354,"body":"This is the first time"},{"startTime":1089.354,"endTime":1093.592,"body":"someone had launched something,"},{"startTime":1089.354,"endTime":1093.592,"body":"literally anything, into space."},{"startTime":1093.659,"endTime":1097.93,"body":"So as a huge political feat,"},{"startTime":1093.659,"endTime":1097.93,"body":"one that really represented"},{"startTime":1097.93,"endTime":1102.634,"body":"the Soviets"},{"startTime":1097.93,"endTime":1102.634,"body":"to be at the forefront of technology"},{"startTime":1102.734,"endTime":1105.737,"body":"and the satellites success"},{"startTime":1105.771,"endTime":1108.64,"body":"was also really shocking to the US."},{"startTime":1108.64,"endTime":1114.68,"body":"It brought a so-called American Sputnik"},{"startTime":1108.64,"endTime":1114.68,"body":"crisis, which is a real thing,"},{"startTime":1114.746,"endTime":1118.25,"body":"and it triggered the space race as well,"},{"startTime":1114.746,"endTime":1118.25,"body":"which took its part"},{"startTime":1118.25,"endTime":1122.654,"body":"in the Cold War quite massively."},{"startTime":1122.721,"endTime":1126.725,"body":"And John Logsdon,"},{"startTime":1122.721,"endTime":1126.725,"body":"a researcher of US history"},{"startTime":1126.725,"endTime":1132.064,"body":"and its international space activities,"},{"startTime":1126.725,"endTime":1132.064,"body":"said that, and I quote, Our movies"},{"startTime":1132.064,"endTime":1137.536,"body":"and television programs in the fifties"},{"startTime":1132.064,"endTime":1137.536,"body":"were full of the idea of going into space."},{"startTime":1137.603,"endTime":1139.071,"body":"What came as a surprise"},{"startTime":1139.071,"endTime":1142.808,"body":"was that it was the Soviet Union"},{"startTime":1139.071,"endTime":1142.808,"body":"that launched the first satellite."},{"startTime":1142.908,"endTime":1146.578,"body":"It is hard to recall"},{"startTime":1142.908,"endTime":1146.578,"body":"the atmosphere of the time, although"},{"startTime":1146.812,"endTime":1151.95,"body":"I imagine that there were definitely,"},{"startTime":1146.812,"endTime":1151.95,"body":"probably feelings of hesitation"},{"startTime":1151.984,"endTime":1155.821,"body":"around the belief of America"},{"startTime":1151.984,"endTime":1155.821,"body":"as a superpower,"},{"startTime":1155.821,"endTime":1160.392,"body":"perhaps defeat on a cultural level even,"},{"startTime":1160.392,"endTime":1166.131,"body":"and in the midst of the Red Scare,"},{"startTime":1160.392,"endTime":1166.131,"body":"there must have been uncertainty"},{"startTime":1166.131,"endTime":1169.935,"body":"of any kind of American patriotism."},{"startTime":1170.002,"endTime":1173.105,"body":"And also, you know, for the Americans,"},{"startTime":1170.002,"endTime":1173.105,"body":"the fifties were"},{"startTime":1173.105,"endTime":1175.174,"body":"the decade of prosperity, literally."},{"startTime":1175.174,"endTime":1176.608,"body":"It's called the decade of prosperity."},{"startTime":1176.608,"endTime":1182.814,"body":"And we had the economic"},{"startTime":1176.608,"endTime":1182.814,"body":"boom, industrialization."},{"startTime":1182.881,"endTime":1183.815,"body":"Society was"},{"startTime":1183.815,"endTime":1188.654,"body":"being constructed rigidly in the domestic"},{"startTime":1183.815,"endTime":1188.654,"body":"sphere as well."},{"startTime":1188.787,"endTime":1193.358,"body":"You had, like the Republican Eisenhower"},{"startTime":1188.787,"endTime":1193.358,"body":"generation,"},{"startTime":1193.458,"endTime":1197.462,"body":"kind of bolstering up the nuclear family."},{"startTime":1197.563,"endTime":1198.363,"body":"So, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1198.363,"endTime":1201.567,"body":"And like, you can see that totally"},{"startTime":1201.633,"endTime":1204.469,"body":"with even like women's fashion,"},{"startTime":1204.469,"endTime":1208.74,"body":"you know, there was this like the twenties"},{"startTime":1204.469,"endTime":1208.74,"body":"and thirties, the forties"},{"startTime":1208.807,"endTime":1211.71,"body":"of like some like women's lib movements"},{"startTime":1211.71,"endTime":1215.08,"body":"and, and working,"},{"startTime":1211.71,"endTime":1215.08,"body":"working jobs during the war."},{"startTime":1215.08,"endTime":1218.951,"body":"And then the war finishes"},{"startTime":1215.08,"endTime":1218.951,"body":"and suddenly there's like a real shift"},{"startTime":1219.051,"endTime":1223.455,"body":"back into these like traditional"},{"startTime":1219.051,"endTime":1223.455,"body":"all female roles."},{"startTime":1223.522,"endTime":1226.858,"body":"The other clothing becomes"},{"startTime":1223.522,"endTime":1226.858,"body":"a lot more restrictive."},{"startTime":1226.858,"endTime":1232.164,"body":"And literally the fifties"},{"startTime":1226.858,"endTime":1232.164,"body":"housewife character came out of that time."},{"startTime":1232.397,"endTime":1233.131,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1233.131,"endTime":1236.301,"body":"See I can imagine how it shaked up"},{"startTime":1236.301,"endTime":1241.54,"body":"the American kind of psyche to have this"},{"startTime":1236.301,"endTime":1241.54,"body":"this housewife and her like breadwinner"},{"startTime":1241.54,"endTime":1244.977,"body":"husband observed this like alien satellite"},{"startTime":1245.043,"endTime":1247.679,"body":"from the Reds UFO orbits."},{"startTime":1247.679,"endTime":1251.783,"body":"Kind of the stars"},{"startTime":1247.679,"endTime":1251.783,"body":"are out outside their window"},{"startTime":1251.85,"endTime":1253.919,"body":"across their white picket fence."},{"startTime":1253.919,"endTime":1256.822,"body":"I hate it when I can't say the stars"},{"startTime":1253.919,"endTime":1256.822,"body":"or the satellites."},{"startTime":1256.822,"endTime":1259.558,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":1259.558,"endTime":1260.425,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":1260.425,"endTime":1262.794,"body":"It ruins the skyline"},{"startTime":1262.794,"endTime":1264.263,"body":"as a response to that."},{"startTime":1264.263,"endTime":1268.734,"body":"The US government"},{"startTime":1264.263,"endTime":1268.734,"body":"retaliated by throwing loads of money"},{"startTime":1268.734,"endTime":1274.64,"body":"in technological innovation and science"},{"startTime":1268.734,"endTime":1274.64,"body":"and research institutions,"},{"startTime":1274.706,"endTime":1278.51,"body":"and I think it really instigated"},{"startTime":1274.706,"endTime":1278.51,"body":"how America treats tech"},{"startTime":1278.51,"endTime":1282.781,"body":"now, like it's just a huge political tool."},{"startTime":1282.848,"endTime":1285.25,"body":"Back then, the best thing for them to do"},{"startTime":1285.25,"endTime":1290.155,"body":"was to just throw money at it,"},{"startTime":1285.25,"endTime":1290.155,"body":"and they were desperate to get smarter."},{"startTime":1290.222,"endTime":1293.392,"body":"And Sputnik's"},{"startTime":1290.222,"endTime":1293.392,"body":"launch was the beginning of a new era"},{"startTime":1293.392,"endTime":1298.53,"body":"of political,"},{"startTime":1293.392,"endTime":1298.53,"body":"military, technological developments"},{"startTime":1298.597,"endTime":1303.769,"body":"that was basically just like a cause"},{"startTime":1298.597,"endTime":1303.769,"body":"and result of the US"},{"startTime":1303.802,"endTime":1308.573,"body":"and USSR, sort of just like constantly"},{"startTime":1303.802,"endTime":1308.573,"body":"one upping each other."},{"startTime":1308.64,"endTime":1309.808,"body":"And while I was researching"},{"startTime":1309.808,"endTime":1313.612,"body":"this, actually,"},{"startTime":1309.808,"endTime":1313.612,"body":"I found an interesting tangent about how"},{"startTime":1313.679,"endTime":1318.717,"body":"citizens of the two nations collaborated"},{"startTime":1313.679,"endTime":1318.717,"body":"while their governments did not."},{"startTime":1318.784,"endTime":1324.79,"body":"So, like when Sputnik launched, the USSR"},{"startTime":1318.784,"endTime":1324.79,"body":"requested amateur and professional"},{"startTime":1324.79,"endTime":1327.793,"body":"radio operators to tape record"},{"startTime":1327.793,"endTime":1331.863,"body":"the signal"},{"startTime":1327.793,"endTime":1331.863,"body":"being transmitted from the satellite"},{"startTime":1331.963,"endTime":1333.365,"body":"directions provided"},{"startTime":1333.365,"endTime":1336.735,"body":"by the American Radio Relay League."},{"startTime":1336.735,"endTime":1339.905,"body":"Where to and I quote, tune in"},{"startTime":1339.905,"endTime":1343.775,"body":"20 mega cycles sharply"},{"startTime":1339.905,"endTime":1343.775,"body":"by the time it signals given on that"},{"startTime":1343.775,"endTime":1347.913,"body":"frequency,"},{"startTime":1343.775,"endTime":1347.913,"body":"then tuned to slightly higher frequencies."},{"startTime":1347.979,"endTime":1351.45,"body":"The beep beep sound of the satellite"},{"startTime":1347.979,"endTime":1351.45,"body":"can be heard each time"},{"startTime":1351.483,"endTime":1357.389,"body":"around the globe."},{"startTime":1357.456,"endTime":1359.391,"body":"So the first recording of Sputnik's"},{"startTime":1359.391,"endTime":1364.963,"body":"signal was made by RCA engineers"},{"startTime":1359.391,"endTime":1364.963,"body":"near Riverhead, Long Island,"},{"startTime":1365.03,"endTime":1370.569,"body":"and they then drove the tape"},{"startTime":1365.03,"endTime":1370.569,"body":"recording into Manhattan"},{"startTime":1370.669,"endTime":1375.073,"body":"for broadcast to the public over"},{"startTime":1370.669,"endTime":1375.073,"body":"NBC radio."},{"startTime":1375.14,"endTime":1378.643,"body":"But as Sputnik rose"},{"startTime":1375.14,"endTime":1378.643,"body":"higher over the East Coast,"},{"startTime":1378.643,"endTime":1383.682,"body":"its signal was picked up by the ham"},{"startTime":1378.643,"endTime":1383.682,"body":"radio station of Columbia University."},{"startTime":1383.782,"endTime":1387.719,"body":"So there was this,"},{"startTime":1383.782,"endTime":1387.719,"body":"like geographical wandering of Sputnik"},{"startTime":1387.719,"endTime":1391.49,"body":"into forbidden territories,"},{"startTime":1387.719,"endTime":1391.49,"body":"you know, that of space."},{"startTime":1391.49,"endTime":1393.625,"body":"And the U.S."},{"startTime":1393.625,"endTime":1396.328,"body":"that I can see how scary"},{"startTime":1396.328,"endTime":1401.466,"body":"that would be for like people"},{"startTime":1396.328,"endTime":1401.466,"body":"in the United States that have been living"},{"startTime":1401.466,"endTime":1404.469,"body":"within this rhetoric of this kind of"},{"startTime":1404.503,"endTime":1406.671,"body":"anti-U.S. are."},{"startTime":1406.671,"endTime":1407.873,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1407.873,"endTime":1410.842,"body":"And that like you feel safe"},{"startTime":1407.873,"endTime":1410.842,"body":"in your country"},{"startTime":1410.842,"endTime":1414.212,"body":"and then suddenly there's like, oh,"},{"startTime":1410.842,"endTime":1414.212,"body":"there's like a new border."},{"startTime":1414.312,"endTime":1416.815,"body":"There's a new border that is unprotected."},{"startTime":1416.815,"endTime":1420.452,"body":"And the enemy, you know, whatever is like"},{"startTime":1420.519,"endTime":1424.623,"body":"coming into our space, space, safe space."},{"startTime":1424.723,"endTime":1428.693,"body":"Yeah, space is literally a gray area,"},{"startTime":1424.723,"endTime":1428.693,"body":"a gray political area."},{"startTime":1428.693,"endTime":1430.362,"body":"Like who is going to colonize space?"},{"startTime":1430.362,"endTime":1432.964,"body":"Yeah, Yeah."},{"startTime":1433.064,"endTime":1435.2,"body":"So, yeah, I mean, it was definitely quite"},{"startTime":1435.2,"endTime":1439.471,"body":"astounding the fact"},{"startTime":1435.2,"endTime":1439.471,"body":"that its record was obstructed"},{"startTime":1439.571,"endTime":1444.142,"body":"and it was recorded by smaller"},{"startTime":1439.571,"endTime":1444.142,"body":"American broadcasters"},{"startTime":1444.142,"endTime":1448.847,"body":"that had the technology available"},{"startTime":1444.142,"endTime":1448.847,"body":"and like just the deep interest"},{"startTime":1448.847,"endTime":1454.653,"body":"to press record and worked"},{"startTime":1448.847,"endTime":1454.653,"body":"very independently to the US government."},{"startTime":1454.753,"endTime":1459.791,"body":"So it's a really kind of cute, historic"},{"startTime":1454.753,"endTime":1459.791,"body":"example of how curiosity goes"},{"startTime":1459.791,"endTime":1465.564,"body":"beyond both borders, across countries"},{"startTime":1459.791,"endTime":1465.564,"body":"on a lateral level and, you know,"},{"startTime":1465.597,"endTime":1469.367,"body":"vertically as well"},{"startTime":1465.597,"endTime":1469.367,"body":"along atmospheres in space."},{"startTime":1469.434,"endTime":1474.639,"body":"Yeah, I mean, it it is a really nice story"},{"startTime":1469.434,"endTime":1474.639,"body":"and it makes me sad"},{"startTime":1474.639,"endTime":1479.778,"body":"how much like money for Tech is so caught"},{"startTime":1474.639,"endTime":1479.778,"body":"up in politics and competition."},{"startTime":1479.778,"endTime":1485.25,"body":"But in the end, we're all just like"},{"startTime":1479.778,"endTime":1485.25,"body":"creatures on a rock looking up at the sky."},{"startTime":1485.317,"endTime":1487.519,"body":"I know, I know. Yeah."},{"startTime":1487.519,"endTime":1493.191,"body":"And at the end of the recordings,"},{"startTime":1493.191,"endTime":1498.029,"body":"the Soviet Union"},{"startTime":1493.191,"endTime":1498.029,"body":"also agreed to transmit on frequencies"},{"startTime":1498.029,"endTime":1502.701,"body":"that worked with the United States"},{"startTime":1498.029,"endTime":1502.701,"body":"existing infrastructure."},{"startTime":1502.767,"endTime":1508.273,"body":"So not only were Americans exposed"},{"startTime":1502.767,"endTime":1508.273,"body":"to the success of the Soviets, like you"},{"startTime":1508.273,"endTime":1514.279,"body":"said, but also were suddenly confronted"},{"startTime":1508.273,"endTime":1514.279,"body":"with an opportunity to collaborate,"},{"startTime":1514.346,"endTime":1519.251,"body":"Was there any kind of laws against"},{"startTime":1514.346,"endTime":1519.251,"body":"being involved in it?"},{"startTime":1519.251,"endTime":1523.955,"body":"Like, did people get in trouble for no,"},{"startTime":1519.251,"endTime":1523.955,"body":"they didn't get in trouble."},{"startTime":1524.055,"endTime":1524.723,"body":"I can imagine."},{"startTime":1524.723,"endTime":1527.926,"body":"It was also maybe a time"},{"startTime":1527.926,"endTime":1531.963,"body":"that individuals"},{"startTime":1527.926,"endTime":1531.963,"body":"were quite interested in the USSR,"},{"startTime":1531.963,"endTime":1535.734,"body":"whether that was like a positive interest"},{"startTime":1531.963,"endTime":1535.734,"body":"or a negative interest,"},{"startTime":1535.8,"endTime":1539.304,"body":"because the Red Scare"},{"startTime":1535.8,"endTime":1539.304,"body":"was not just a political thing."},{"startTime":1539.304,"endTime":1542.674,"body":"It was also very much present"},{"startTime":1539.304,"endTime":1542.674,"body":"amongst individuals."},{"startTime":1542.841,"endTime":1549.08,"body":"So I think by listening out"},{"startTime":1542.841,"endTime":1549.08,"body":"to these Soviet objects flying"},{"startTime":1549.214,"endTime":1553.785,"body":"unidentified objects, it was probably"},{"startTime":1549.214,"endTime":1553.785,"body":"also incentivized by the government"},{"startTime":1553.785,"endTime":1556.821,"body":"to just be like, you know, on the lookout"},{"startTime":1553.785,"endTime":1556.821,"body":"maybe, I don't know."},{"startTime":1556.821,"endTime":1557.689,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1557.689,"endTime":1561.459,"body":"Anyway, the success of Sputnik"},{"startTime":1557.689,"endTime":1561.459,"body":"seemed to have changed"},{"startTime":1561.459,"endTime":1565.664,"body":"minds around the world"},{"startTime":1561.459,"endTime":1565.664,"body":"regarding a shift in power to the Soviets."},{"startTime":1565.664,"endTime":1568.533,"body":"For sure, it spurred the U.S."},{"startTime":1568.533,"endTime":1572.17,"body":"to create the advanced"},{"startTime":1568.533,"endTime":1572.17,"body":"research projects Agency,"},{"startTime":1572.17,"endTime":1576.174,"body":"which is very vague title,"},{"startTime":1572.17,"endTime":1576.174,"body":"but it was called ARPA."},{"startTime":1576.174,"endTime":1578.61,"body":"And then later Dark."},{"startTime":1578.677,"endTime":1579.477,"body":"Wait, what's the date?"},{"startTime":1579.477,"endTime":1582.881,"body":"Why did they at the day of."},{"startTime":1579.477,"endTime":1582.881,"body":"For the defense."},{"startTime":1582.881,"endTime":1585.817,"body":"The Defense Military Department."},{"startTime":1585.817,"endTime":1587.052,"body":"Great. Okay."},{"startTime":1587.052,"endTime":1589.187,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":1589.187,"endTime":1590.655,"body":"cool. Yeah."},{"startTime":1590.655,"endTime":1594.492,"body":"Like scary, scary mode."},{"startTime":1594.593,"endTime":1596.661,"body":"And then this resulted in ARPANET,"},{"startTime":1596.661,"endTime":1600.365,"body":"which is the infant model of the Internet"},{"startTime":1596.661,"endTime":1600.365,"body":"as we know it now."},{"startTime":1600.465,"endTime":1604.803,"body":"And that launched a lot later in 1969,"},{"startTime":1604.803,"endTime":1608.006,"body":"I think October 29th, 1969."},{"startTime":1608.073,"endTime":1612.344,"body":"Yeah, it's sort of in the in the book"},{"startTime":1608.073,"endTime":1612.344,"body":"how not to get recognition."},{"startTime":1612.344,"endTime":1616.948,"body":"He also talks about like I'm paraphrasing,"},{"startTime":1612.344,"endTime":1616.948,"body":"I guess, but"},{"startTime":1617.015,"endTime":1623.488,"body":"you can look at like ARPANET and Syverson"},{"startTime":1617.015,"endTime":1623.488,"body":"all this like national network"},{"startTime":1623.488,"endTime":1628.126,"body":"projects that do to offer"},{"startTime":1623.488,"endTime":1628.126,"body":"in some cybernetic principles."},{"startTime":1628.193,"endTime":1632.097,"body":"But the difference being that"},{"startTime":1628.193,"endTime":1632.097,"body":"like OJ S and Cyber Sin saw the nation"},{"startTime":1632.097,"endTime":1636.234,"body":"as analogous to the human body"},{"startTime":1632.097,"endTime":1636.234,"body":"with the with the computer network,"},{"startTime":1636.234,"endTime":1641.306,"body":"it's like the neural network"},{"startTime":1636.234,"endTime":1641.306,"body":"or the brain controlling communication."},{"startTime":1641.373,"endTime":1644.743,"body":"But with ARPANET, it was more positioning"},{"startTime":1644.743,"endTime":1648.78,"body":"like the nation network"},{"startTime":1644.743,"endTime":1648.78,"body":"as a disembodied brain."},{"startTime":1648.847,"endTime":1650.081,"body":"And this is where the idea"},{"startTime":1650.081,"endTime":1654.519,"body":"of like socialism and network system"},{"startTime":1650.081,"endTime":1654.519,"body":"theory comes in that like odious and cyber"},{"startTime":1654.519,"endTime":1657.989,"body":"sin with, with those too,"},{"startTime":1654.519,"endTime":1657.989,"body":"that the important idea was that"},{"startTime":1657.989,"endTime":1662.193,"body":"it was like the nation and the government"},{"startTime":1657.989,"endTime":1662.193,"body":"working, working together."},{"startTime":1662.293,"endTime":1667.766,"body":"But yeah, ARPANET was more just like this,"},{"startTime":1662.293,"endTime":1667.766,"body":"like disembodied, disembodied brain."},{"startTime":1667.832,"endTime":1669.801,"body":"That's interesting."},{"startTime":1667.832,"endTime":1669.801,"body":"That's really interesting."},{"startTime":1669.801,"endTime":1672.237,"body":"I didn't know that"},{"startTime":1669.801,"endTime":1672.237,"body":"because even when you code,"},{"startTime":1672.237,"endTime":1675.974,"body":"you have usually in each HTML,"},{"startTime":1672.237,"endTime":1675.974,"body":"you have the head and then the body."},{"startTime":1675.974,"endTime":1678.977,"body":"And those two things are are kind of."},{"startTime":1679.077,"endTime":1682.28,"body":"I never thought about that. Yeah."},{"startTime":1682.347,"endTime":1684.783,"body":"Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":1684.783,"endTime":1686.518,"body":"So you always have,"},{"startTime":1684.783,"endTime":1686.518,"body":"like, the head in the body,"},{"startTime":1686.518,"endTime":1690.655,"body":"but it doesn't really make sense"},{"startTime":1686.518,"endTime":1690.655,"body":"because the body is like part of the head."},{"startTime":1690.655,"endTime":1695.326,"body":"But no, sorry,"},{"startTime":1690.655,"endTime":1695.326,"body":"I think it's just part of the body."},{"startTime":1695.393,"endTime":1695.794,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1695.794,"endTime":1701.199,"body":"And so it's it's quite astounding"},{"startTime":1695.794,"endTime":1701.199,"body":"to just think that the Soviets"},{"startTime":1701.199,"endTime":1705.67,"body":"had already thought"},{"startTime":1701.199,"endTime":1705.67,"body":"of the idea of technological communication"},{"startTime":1705.67,"endTime":1710.675,"body":"between servers as well,"},{"startTime":1705.67,"endTime":1710.675,"body":"like even the technological aspect"},{"startTime":1710.675,"endTime":1715.38,"body":"of how the system worked"},{"startTime":1710.675,"endTime":1715.38,"body":"is very reminiscent of ARPANET Internet,"},{"startTime":1715.447,"endTime":1720.719,"body":"because OGI has literally used"},{"startTime":1715.447,"endTime":1720.719,"body":"a wide area packet switching network"},{"startTime":1720.719,"endTime":1725.89,"body":"to maintain distributed control"},{"startTime":1720.719,"endTime":1725.89,"body":"and use computers as well"},{"startTime":1725.89,"endTime":1729.761,"body":"for the first time, not just screens"},{"startTime":1725.89,"endTime":1729.761,"body":"and terminals like with previous"},{"startTime":1729.861,"endTime":1732.831,"body":"cyber video tech projects in Europe."},{"startTime":1732.997,"endTime":1735.967,"body":"How much did they know about each other?"},{"startTime":1735.967,"endTime":1741.906,"body":"They didn't have a lot of communication"},{"startTime":1735.967,"endTime":1741.906,"body":"with Europe and the West."},{"startTime":1742.006,"endTime":1745.877,"body":"And also cybernetics theory was,"},{"startTime":1742.006,"endTime":1745.877,"body":"like I said, very much dismissed."},{"startTime":1745.877,"endTime":1750.048,"body":"So they didn't have theoretical"},{"startTime":1745.877,"endTime":1750.048,"body":"collaborators from the West, like"},{"startTime":1750.115,"endTime":1754.753,"body":"in opposition to what happened with Cyprus"},{"startTime":1750.115,"endTime":1754.753,"body":"and in Chile and suffered beer."},{"startTime":1754.853,"endTime":1758.823,"body":"I guess it's also it was very early."},{"startTime":1758.923,"endTime":1759.224,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1759.224,"endTime":1763.294,"body":"Like orgies"},{"startTime":1759.224,"endTime":1763.294,"body":"and you know Sebastian was early seventies"},{"startTime":1763.394,"endTime":1768.6,"body":"so by the time that they were sort"},{"startTime":1763.394,"endTime":1768.6,"body":"of coming out with that system,"},{"startTime":1768.6,"endTime":1772.971,"body":"that network model and even stuff at beer"},{"startTime":1768.6,"endTime":1772.971,"body":"like stuff at the was"},{"startTime":1773.037,"endTime":1777.542,"body":"very established by that point"},{"startTime":1773.037,"endTime":1777.542,"body":"and he was a"},{"startTime":1777.609,"endTime":1780.512,"body":"like a management cybernetics"},{"startTime":1777.609,"endTime":1780.512,"body":"so something like, you know, like"},{"startTime":1780.512,"endTime":1785.216,"body":"it was very like a specific strain"},{"startTime":1780.512,"endTime":1785.216,"body":"of cyber cybernetics."},{"startTime":1785.283,"endTime":1788.153,"body":"I also just think it's important to note"},{"startTime":1788.153,"endTime":1792.857,"body":"that also the historic failure of OJ. Yes."},{"startTime":1792.857,"endTime":1797.862,"body":"Could have really been avoidable"},{"startTime":1792.857,"endTime":1797.862,"body":"and should have not been symptomatic"},{"startTime":1797.862,"endTime":1802.834,"body":"of the regime's"},{"startTime":1797.862,"endTime":1802.834,"body":"original ideology, which was communism,"},{"startTime":1802.934,"endTime":1804.969,"body":"because it's a story"},{"startTime":1804.969,"endTime":1810.241,"body":"of the kind of life, work and struggles"},{"startTime":1804.969,"endTime":1810.241,"body":"between often genius"},{"startTime":1810.241,"endTime":1816.347,"body":"cybernetics scientists and administrators"},{"startTime":1810.241,"endTime":1816.347,"body":"and the institutional settings"},{"startTime":1816.347,"endTime":1820.018,"body":"that they were tasked"},{"startTime":1816.347,"endTime":1820.018,"body":"with this enormous project."},{"startTime":1820.084,"endTime":1823.555,"body":"So like you mentioned earlier"},{"startTime":1820.084,"endTime":1823.555,"body":"with the book,"},{"startTime":1823.621,"endTime":1829.194,"body":"How Not to Network A Nation"},{"startTime":1823.621,"endTime":1829.194,"body":"The Uneasy History of Soviet Internet."},{"startTime":1829.26,"endTime":1832.864,"body":"Benjamin Peters proposes that, quote,"},{"startTime":1833.097,"endTime":1837.168,"body":"The primary reason"},{"startTime":1833.097,"endTime":1837.168,"body":"that the Soviets struggled"},{"startTime":1837.168,"endTime":1841.105,"body":"to network their nation rests"},{"startTime":1837.168,"endTime":1841.105,"body":"on the institutional conditions"},{"startTime":1841.105,"endTime":1845.877,"body":"supporting the scientific knowledge base"},{"startTime":1841.105,"endTime":1845.877,"body":"and the command economy."},{"startTime":1845.944,"endTime":1848.947,"body":"Those conditions, once examined, challenge"},{"startTime":1848.98,"endTime":1853.451,"body":"conventional assumptions"},{"startTime":1848.98,"endTime":1853.451,"body":"about the institutions that build open,"},{"startTime":1853.451,"endTime":1858.122,"body":"flat and collaborative networks"},{"startTime":1853.451,"endTime":1858.122,"body":"and thereby help recover the Cold War."},{"startTime":1858.122,"endTime":1860.992,"body":"Origins of the information Society."},{"startTime":1860.992,"endTime":1865.597,"body":"It is a mistake as the standard"},{"startTime":1860.992,"endTime":1865.597,"body":"interpretation among technologists"},{"startTime":1865.597,"endTime":1870.635,"body":"and some scholars have it to project"},{"startTime":1865.597,"endTime":1870.635,"body":"Cold War biases onto this history."},{"startTime":1870.735,"endTime":1874.505,"body":"Our networked"},{"startTime":1870.735,"endTime":1874.505,"body":"president is the result of neither free"},{"startTime":1874.539,"endTime":1878.443,"body":"market triumphs"},{"startTime":1874.539,"endTime":1878.443,"body":"nor socialist state failures."},{"startTime":1878.543,"endTime":1878.81,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1878.81,"endTime":1883.248,"body":"So it's not really"},{"startTime":1878.81,"endTime":1883.248,"body":"about this kind of attack against them"},{"startTime":1883.314,"endTime":1885.95,"body":"or them against them story."},{"startTime":1885.95,"endTime":1889.22,"body":"These tech histories"},{"startTime":1885.95,"endTime":1889.22,"body":"kind of while influenced"},{"startTime":1889.22,"endTime":1892.59,"body":"by what was going"},{"startTime":1889.22,"endTime":1892.59,"body":"on, I mean, particularly with ARPANET,"},{"startTime":1892.69,"endTime":1896.394,"body":"sort of sprouted up on their own,"},{"startTime":1892.69,"endTime":1896.394,"body":"all of these different tech histories"},{"startTime":1896.394,"endTime":1898.63,"body":"that kind of come up around the world"},{"startTime":1898.63,"endTime":1903.201,"body":"are all sort of like part"},{"startTime":1898.63,"endTime":1903.201,"body":"of our understanding of networks"},{"startTime":1903.201,"endTime":1906.204,"body":"and how they relate to society"},{"startTime":1903.201,"endTime":1906.204,"body":"in the present."},{"startTime":1906.204,"endTime":1911.876,"body":"It's not like, Oh, it was just ARPANET,"},{"startTime":1906.204,"endTime":1911.876,"body":"and that brought us to where we are now."},{"startTime":1911.876,"endTime":1916.281,"body":"It's a global thing"},{"startTime":1911.876,"endTime":1916.281,"body":"and sort of like a mid-century sort"},{"startTime":1916.281,"endTime":1921.085,"body":"of search for, well, to use cybernetics"},{"startTime":1916.281,"endTime":1921.085,"body":"to have communication and control."},{"startTime":1921.152,"endTime":1925.189,"body":"Yeah, but then I guess ARPANET"},{"startTime":1921.152,"endTime":1925.189,"body":"sort of took over."},{"startTime":1925.189,"endTime":1930.428,"body":"But Benjamin Peters continues to say"},{"startTime":1930.528,"endTime":1932.063,"body":"that the"},{"startTime":1932.063,"endTime":1936.501,"body":"American ARPANET initially took shape"},{"startTime":1932.063,"endTime":1936.501,"body":"thanks to"},{"startTime":1936.501,"endTime":1941.372,"body":"well managed states subsidies"},{"startTime":1936.501,"endTime":1941.372,"body":"and collaborative research environments."},{"startTime":1941.472,"endTime":1945.476,"body":"While the comparable Soviet network"},{"startTime":1941.472,"endTime":1945.476,"body":"projects stumbled due"},{"startTime":1945.476,"endTime":1951.916,"body":"to internal competition and managerial"},{"startTime":1945.476,"endTime":1951.916,"body":"shifting for self-interest and power."},{"startTime":1951.916,"endTime":1955.887,"body":"As mentioned earlier,"},{"startTime":1951.916,"endTime":1955.887,"body":"he says then that the first global"},{"startTime":1955.887,"endTime":1960.558,"body":"civilian computer networks"},{"startTime":1955.887,"endTime":1960.558,"body":"developed among cooperative capitalists,"},{"startTime":1960.792,"endTime":1964.228,"body":"not among competitive socialists."},{"startTime":1964.295,"endTime":1970.168,"body":"So yeah, again, the kind of lesson learned"},{"startTime":1964.295,"endTime":1970.168,"body":"is that that ARPANET wouldn't"},{"startTime":1970.168,"endTime":1971.235,"body":"have worked without"},{"startTime":1971.235,"endTime":1976.341,"body":"kind of like a socialist structure, which"},{"startTime":1971.235,"endTime":1976.341,"body":"is essentially what they were executing."},{"startTime":1976.341,"endTime":1980.511,"body":"But they didn't really know"},{"startTime":1976.341,"endTime":1980.511,"body":"that they were."},{"startTime":1980.578,"endTime":1983.581,"body":"Because at the end of this summary,"},{"startTime":1983.815,"endTime":1986.551,"body":"he goes on to say his most famous quote,"},{"startTime":1986.551,"endTime":1989.287,"body":"The capitalists behave like socialists"},{"startTime":1989.287,"endTime":1993.091,"body":"while the socialists behaved"},{"startTime":1989.287,"endTime":1993.091,"body":"like capitalists."},{"startTime":1993.157,"endTime":1993.891,"body":"It's a good quote."},{"startTime":1993.891,"endTime":1995.727,"body":"I can see why it's famous."},{"startTime":1995.727,"endTime":1997.328,"body":"Yeah, that's a good one."},{"startTime":1997.328,"endTime":2000.431,"body":"Something that's interesting is"},{"startTime":1997.328,"endTime":2000.431,"body":"that I'll wrap up with this idea"},{"startTime":2000.431,"endTime":2004.569,"body":"of civilian computer networks"},{"startTime":2000.431,"endTime":2004.569,"body":"and the like."},{"startTime":2004.635,"endTime":2008.606,"body":"Is that how we view success"},{"startTime":2004.635,"endTime":2008.606,"body":"in the computer network?"},{"startTime":2008.706,"endTime":2011.442,"body":"I suppose it's a comparison"},{"startTime":2008.706,"endTime":2011.442,"body":"to the internet, right?"},{"startTime":2011.442,"endTime":2012.076,"body":"Like that."},{"startTime":2012.076,"endTime":2016.681,"body":"The we're so used to the Internet,"},{"startTime":2012.076,"endTime":2016.681,"body":"the World Wide Web, because, you know,"},{"startTime":2016.748,"endTime":2020.184,"body":"it's become so influential to the world"},{"startTime":2016.748,"endTime":2020.184,"body":"because we all use it."},{"startTime":2020.284,"endTime":2021.552,"body":"It's a civilian."},{"startTime":2021.552,"endTime":2024.389,"body":"I mean, you know, civilian computer"},{"startTime":2021.552,"endTime":2024.389,"body":"network."},{"startTime":2024.389,"endTime":2027.258,"body":"It's not it's not like defense,"},{"startTime":2024.389,"endTime":2027.258,"body":"It's not ministry."},{"startTime":2027.258,"endTime":2029.827,"body":"It's not running the planned"},{"startTime":2027.258,"endTime":2029.827,"body":"economy. Definitely."},{"startTime":2029.827,"endTime":2030.862,"body":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"startTime":2030.862,"endTime":2034.332,"body":"I wonder if if OJ's had managed to kind of"},{"startTime":2034.465,"endTime":2037.468,"body":"at least do trials or begin"},{"startTime":2037.602,"endTime":2042.106,"body":"being accessible by the general public,"},{"startTime":2037.602,"endTime":2042.106,"body":"if that would have changed."},{"startTime":2042.173,"endTime":2043.641,"body":"Change some things."},{"startTime":2043.641,"endTime":2046.444,"body":"Yeah. I wonder too. I mean, O.J."},{"startTime":2046.444,"endTime":2053.284,"body":"eventually came to a halt also"},{"startTime":2046.444,"endTime":2053.284,"body":"because the Soviet Union was collapsing."},{"startTime":2053.384,"endTime":2055.019,"body":"Schatz never really"},{"startTime":2055.019,"endTime":2058.756,"body":"toppled the system."},{"startTime":2058.823,"endTime":2062.293,"body":"Khrushchev was the last kind of leader"},{"startTime":2062.293,"endTime":2065.296,"body":"that truly believed in the Soviet Union"},{"startTime":2065.53,"endTime":2068.132,"body":"and it just didn't,"},{"startTime":2068.132,"endTime":2072.737,"body":"including the kind of people around him"},{"startTime":2068.132,"endTime":2072.737,"body":"and the political party."},{"startTime":2072.804,"endTime":2077.708,"body":"But I think what Peter's argument"},{"startTime":2072.804,"endTime":2077.708,"body":"also is really important here,"},{"startTime":2077.708,"endTime":2082.013,"body":"because he says that this behavior"},{"startTime":2077.708,"endTime":2082.013,"body":"of this internal like mismanagement"},{"startTime":2082.013,"endTime":2085.95,"body":"eventually contaminated"},{"startTime":2082.013,"endTime":2085.95,"body":"the entire political system"},{"startTime":2086.05,"endTime":2090.521,"body":"and represented"},{"startTime":2086.05,"endTime":2090.521,"body":"the downfall of the Soviet Union."},{"startTime":2090.588,"endTime":2092.723,"body":"So OSI as failing"},{"startTime":2092.723,"endTime":2096.661,"body":"was both kind of like a foreshadowing"},{"startTime":2092.723,"endTime":2096.661,"body":"and a symptom of this,"},{"startTime":2096.761,"endTime":2101.265,"body":"which again, I think is really interesting"},{"startTime":2096.761,"endTime":2101.265,"body":"and like a lesson to learn when it comes"},{"startTime":2101.265,"endTime":2107.205,"body":"to how technology can represent"},{"startTime":2101.265,"endTime":2107.205,"body":"underlying political problems or agendas."},{"startTime":2107.271,"endTime":2112.477,"body":"Peters supports his analysis"},{"startTime":2107.271,"endTime":2112.477,"body":"by displaying it"},{"startTime":2112.543,"endTime":2116.647,"body":"in contrast to the development ARPANET,"},{"startTime":2116.714,"endTime":2120.852,"body":"which was not only well"},{"startTime":2116.714,"endTime":2120.852,"body":"financed by the government,"},{"startTime":2120.852,"endTime":2124.522,"body":"but also encouraged teams"},{"startTime":2120.852,"endTime":2124.522,"body":"working together."},{"startTime":2124.522,"endTime":2129.327,"body":"And it was also like subsidized"},{"startTime":2124.522,"endTime":2129.327,"body":"its use in a few cases."},{"startTime":2129.427,"endTime":2129.727,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2129.727,"endTime":2133.931,"body":"So it's like it's not like,"},{"startTime":2129.727,"endTime":2133.931,"body":"you know, the lack of a Soviet Internet"},{"startTime":2133.998,"endTime":2136.968,"body":"or like a large scale"},{"startTime":2133.998,"endTime":2136.968,"body":"computer successful computer network."},{"startTime":2136.968,"endTime":2140.471,"body":"Wasn't this like"},{"startTime":2136.968,"endTime":2140.471,"body":"lack of technological knowledge or skill?"},{"startTime":2140.471,"endTime":2143.107,"body":"It wasn't like, oh,"},{"startTime":2140.471,"endTime":2143.107,"body":"the U.S. is just like more intelligent."},{"startTime":2143.107,"endTime":2145.81,"body":"It's about kind of the systems"},{"startTime":2143.107,"endTime":2145.81,"body":"around them."},{"startTime":2145.81,"endTime":2146.511,"body":"And I mean,"},{"startTime":2146.511,"endTime":2150.248,"body":"there was this idea that like, yes,"},{"startTime":2146.511,"endTime":2150.248,"body":"it was well funded by the government."},{"startTime":2150.248,"endTime":2152.517,"body":"Yes, it encouraged teams working together."},{"startTime":2152.517,"endTime":2156.721,"body":"But like the reasoning behind"},{"startTime":2152.517,"endTime":2156.721,"body":"it was so that they could like"},{"startTime":2156.821,"endTime":2160.091,"body":"strive to go to this technological,"},{"startTime":2156.821,"endTime":2160.091,"body":"technological advancement."},{"startTime":2160.091,"endTime":2162.36,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2162.36,"endTime":2165.229,"body":"Like,"},{"startTime":2162.36,"endTime":2165.229,"body":"all of these things are in store, right?"},{"startTime":2165.229,"endTime":2169.0,"body":"All these things are like in service"},{"startTime":2165.229,"endTime":2169.0,"body":"of technological advancement"},{"startTime":2169.0,"endTime":2172.403,"body":"in a like a contentious world."},{"startTime":2172.637,"endTime":2173.137,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2173.137,"endTime":2177.742,"body":"At a very specific"},{"startTime":2173.137,"endTime":2177.742,"body":"agenda behind it for sure."},{"startTime":2177.842,"endTime":2181.212,"body":"I once read this book by Ed Catmull,"},{"startTime":2181.445,"endTime":2186.751,"body":"who is the founder of Pixar,"},{"startTime":2181.445,"endTime":2186.751,"body":"who document to the US post Sputnik"},{"startTime":2186.984,"endTime":2191.155,"body":"tech initiatives"},{"startTime":2186.984,"endTime":2191.155,"body":"that led him to obtain a scholarship"},{"startTime":2191.155,"endTime":2195.359,"body":"from like an endowment"},{"startTime":2191.155,"endTime":2195.359,"body":"that put all sorts of scientists"},{"startTime":2195.359,"endTime":2198.396,"body":"in one room"},{"startTime":2195.359,"endTime":2198.396,"body":"and simply observed and supported."},{"startTime":2198.396,"endTime":2200.398,"body":"What would come out of it?"},{"startTime":2200.398,"endTime":2203.401,"body":"Was this like a"},{"startTime":2200.398,"endTime":2203.401,"body":"like a creative think tank sort of guide?"},{"startTime":2203.501,"endTime":2205.169,"body":"Yeah, it was like a think tank."},{"startTime":2205.169,"endTime":2209.774,"body":"They definitely didn't have the vocabulary"},{"startTime":2205.169,"endTime":2209.774,"body":"for what it was at the time, but it was"},{"startTime":2209.84,"endTime":2213.377,"body":"basically like research"},{"startTime":2209.84,"endTime":2213.377,"body":"institutions that were funded by ARPA"},{"startTime":2213.444,"endTime":2214.879,"body":"and they have studios."},{"startTime":2214.879,"endTime":2218.349,"body":"Part of it was that it was massively"},{"startTime":2214.879,"endTime":2218.349,"body":"funded by the ARPA program,"},{"startTime":2218.482,"endTime":2223.621,"body":"and Catmull said that the studio culture"},{"startTime":2218.482,"endTime":2223.621,"body":"in these research institutions"},{"startTime":2223.754,"endTime":2228.526,"body":"so strong that he could easily"},{"startTime":2223.754,"endTime":2228.526,"body":"namedrop his peers"},{"startTime":2228.593,"endTime":2233.097,"body":"where he, for example, work"},{"startTime":2228.593,"endTime":2233.097,"body":"next to the guy who invented the PDF file,"},{"startTime":2233.097,"endTime":2237.935,"body":"who was also then working together"},{"startTime":2233.097,"endTime":2237.935,"body":"with like the founder of Photoshop."},{"startTime":2238.002,"endTime":2240.004,"body":"These are the people that I should talk to"},{"startTime":2238.002,"endTime":2240.004,"body":"about"},{"startTime":2240.004,"endTime":2244.275,"body":"why it's so hard to save a file"},{"startTime":2240.004,"endTime":2244.275,"body":"as a PDF and Photoshop"},{"startTime":2244.342,"endTime":2246.043,"body":"yeah, I think you should."},{"startTime":2246.043,"endTime":2249.38,"body":"I think you should call them up."},{"startTime":2249.447,"endTime":2250.014,"body":"Excuse me."},{"startTime":2250.014,"endTime":2253.718,"body":"I thought you were friends."},{"startTime":2253.784,"endTime":2255.853,"body":"Why are you making my life harder?"},{"startTime":2255.853,"endTime":2260.458,"body":"And it also kind of massively explains"},{"startTime":2255.853,"endTime":2260.458,"body":"how like a lot of these tech programs"},{"startTime":2260.658,"endTime":2264.762,"body":"that were invented at that time"},{"startTime":2260.658,"endTime":2264.762,"body":"are really entangled in its engineering."},{"startTime":2264.762,"endTime":2269.567,"body":"So definitely, like the reason"},{"startTime":2264.762,"endTime":2269.567,"body":"why you're probably getting some"},{"startTime":2269.6,"endTime":2274.705,"body":"like planned obsolescence with one app is"},{"startTime":2269.6,"endTime":2274.705,"body":"because it's like technically tangled up"},{"startTime":2274.705,"endTime":2278.409,"body":"with like another app that also needs"},{"startTime":2274.705,"endTime":2278.409,"body":"updating or something like that."},{"startTime":2278.476,"endTime":2284.682,"body":"But yeah, with kind of all of this"},{"startTime":2278.476,"endTime":2284.682,"body":"like inspiration going on around him,"},{"startTime":2284.749,"endTime":2290.588,"body":"Catmull later went on to invent"},{"startTime":2284.749,"endTime":2290.588,"body":"the computational z-axis,"},{"startTime":2290.655,"endTime":2295.393,"body":"so he discovered how to like,"},{"startTime":2290.655,"endTime":2295.393,"body":"visualize 3D space with a computer."},{"startTime":2295.393,"endTime":2298.029,"body":"I think he did that by like"},{"startTime":2298.095,"endTime":2301.432,"body":"charting out"},{"startTime":2298.095,"endTime":2301.432,"body":"his hand, like putting dots on his hand"},{"startTime":2301.532,"endTime":2306.103,"body":"and then putting these coordinates"},{"startTime":2301.532,"endTime":2306.103,"body":"into a database on a on a software."},{"startTime":2306.103,"endTime":2309.307,"body":"But it's crazy"},{"startTime":2306.103,"endTime":2309.307,"body":"because that means that like from then"},{"startTime":2309.307,"endTime":2313.644,"body":"on, computers weren't just constrained"},{"startTime":2309.307,"endTime":2313.644,"body":"to seeing things on an X and Y plane,"},{"startTime":2313.644,"endTime":2317.782,"body":"but also on said access space,"},{"startTime":2313.644,"endTime":2317.782,"body":"which obviously can influence"},{"startTime":2317.782,"endTime":2321.786,"body":"like game development and virtual reality"},{"startTime":2317.782,"endTime":2321.786,"body":"and all these things."},{"startTime":2321.786,"endTime":2324.622,"body":"Pixar, massive industry."},{"startTime":2324.622,"endTime":2328.259,"body":"It's the Internet,"},{"startTime":2324.622,"endTime":2328.259,"body":"which is the Internet that we know"},{"startTime":2328.259,"endTime":2333.497,"body":"now was born from quotation capitalists"},{"startTime":2333.731,"endTime":2338.602,"body":"that were actually just socialists,"},{"startTime":2333.731,"endTime":2338.602,"body":"but they didn't even really know."},{"startTime":2338.602,"endTime":2344.508,"body":"It sounds like a really big thing,"},{"startTime":2338.602,"endTime":2344.508,"body":"but reading The Californian Ideology"},{"startTime":2344.575,"endTime":2347.078,"body":"by Richard Bradbrook and Andy Cameron"},{"startTime":2347.078,"endTime":2351.349,"body":"and I read a quote in there,"},{"startTime":2347.078,"endTime":2351.349,"body":"which was Americans"},{"startTime":2351.415,"endTime":2357.021,"body":"have always had state planning,"},{"startTime":2351.415,"endTime":2357.021,"body":"only they call it the defense budget."},{"startTime":2357.088,"endTime":2357.955,"body":"So it's literally"},{"startTime":2357.955,"endTime":2360.958,"body":"just like the history of the Internet,"},{"startTime":2361.025,"endTime":2364.495,"body":"really contradicts the beliefs"},{"startTime":2364.495,"endTime":2367.965,"body":"of like free market ideologies,"},{"startTime":2368.032,"endTime":2371.769,"body":"that it flourishes"},{"startTime":2368.032,"endTime":2371.769,"body":"from natural competition"},{"startTime":2371.902,"endTime":2374.772,"body":"and awesome Darwinian essentialist"},{"startTime":2374.772,"endTime":2377.641,"body":"views of survival of the fittest."},{"startTime":2377.641,"endTime":2380.344,"body":"Because like for the first 20 years,"},{"startTime":2380.344,"endTime":2385.049,"body":"ARPANET development was completely"},{"startTime":2380.344,"endTime":2385.049,"body":"or almost completely"},{"startTime":2385.149,"endTime":2388.619,"body":"dependent"},{"startTime":2385.149,"endTime":2388.619,"body":"on the American federal government,"},{"startTime":2388.719,"endTime":2393.324,"body":"which was either through US"},{"startTime":2388.719,"endTime":2393.324,"body":"military or universities"},{"startTime":2393.424,"endTime":2397.995,"body":"that essentially, like taxpayers money,"},{"startTime":2393.424,"endTime":2397.995,"body":"went into building the net infrastructure."},{"startTime":2398.062,"endTime":2402.166,"body":"And yeah, much of its software"},{"startTime":2398.062,"endTime":2402.166,"body":"and applications were invented"},{"startTime":2402.166,"endTime":2406.604,"body":"by hobbyists or professionals"},{"startTime":2402.166,"endTime":2406.604,"body":"working in their spare time. So"},{"startTime":2406.67,"endTime":2409.407,"body":"it's funny to think"},{"startTime":2406.67,"endTime":2409.407,"body":"how like streaks of that"},{"startTime":2409.407,"endTime":2412.81,"body":"were already seen in the American"},{"startTime":2412.943,"endTime":2416.28,"body":"hobbyist enthusiasm"},{"startTime":2412.943,"endTime":2416.28,"body":"in the recording of Sputnik,"},{"startTime":2416.38,"endTime":2421.719,"body":"which is only a decade before the"},{"startTime":2416.38,"endTime":2421.719,"body":"the things like Homebrew computer"},{"startTime":2421.719,"endTime":2428.159,"body":"clubs and video collectives"},{"startTime":2421.719,"endTime":2428.159,"body":"and community radio stations were saying"},{"startTime":2428.259,"endTime":2429.927,"body":"and these"},{"startTime":2429.927,"endTime":2435.032,"body":"these things then led to the rising"},{"startTime":2429.927,"endTime":2435.032,"body":"of the virtual class"},{"startTime":2435.132,"endTime":2437.535,"body":"of the West Coast in the seventies."},{"startTime":2437.535,"endTime":2441.305,"body":"And that is then essentially"},{"startTime":2437.535,"endTime":2441.305,"body":"like what built Silicon Valley."},{"startTime":2441.372,"endTime":2445.876,"body":"So yeah,"},{"startTime":2441.372,"endTime":2445.876,"body":"there's kind of these remnants of that."},{"startTime":2445.943,"endTime":2449.113,"body":"Yeah, there is this sort of beautiful link"},{"startTime":2445.943,"endTime":2449.113,"body":"between these, between"},{"startTime":2449.113,"endTime":2452.95,"body":"all these histories that that lead us"},{"startTime":2449.113,"endTime":2452.95,"body":"to kind of where we are now."},{"startTime":2452.95,"endTime":2454.752,"body":"I mean"},{"startTime":2454.752,"endTime":2458.422,"body":"like, do I blame Otis for Tesla?"},{"startTime":2458.489,"endTime":2462.493,"body":"No, but I mean, you know,"},{"startTime":2462.493,"endTime":2466.564,"body":"he could very well be"},{"startTime":2466.63,"endTime":2467.231,"body":"anyway."},{"startTime":2467.231,"endTime":2470.601,"body":"So thanks everyone for listening."},{"startTime":2470.701,"endTime":2472.903,"body":"I think we can end it here. Right."},{"startTime":2472.903,"endTime":2474.772,"body":"What are we talking about next?"},{"startTime":2474.772,"endTime":2478.776,"body":"We have two episodes"},{"startTime":2474.772,"endTime":2478.776,"body":"about the French Minutes"},{"startTime":2478.843,"endTime":2481.846,"body":"Network, and I am so excited about it."},{"startTime":2481.946,"endTime":2484.582,"body":"I really like that one. Yeah, yeah,"},{"startTime":2481.946,"endTime":2484.582,"body":"yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2484.582,"endTime":2490.554,"body":"I mean, it all marks our movement into"},{"startTime":2484.582,"endTime":2490.554,"body":"a few episodes looking at video networks."},{"startTime":2490.754,"endTime":2492.223,"body":"So. Yeah, get it."},{"startTime":2492.223,"endTime":2494.592,"body":"Get ready for that one."},{"startTime":2494.592,"endTime":2497.094,"body":"Cool. Well, thanks, Camila. Thanks."},{"startTime":2497.094,"endTime":2498.762,"body":"An ugly day in New York."},{"startTime":2498.762,"endTime":2501.165,"body":"Thanks to everyone for tuning in."},{"startTime":2501.165,"endTime":2504.134,"body":"Happy Valentine's Day. Every day."},{"startTime":2504.134,"endTime":2505.936,"body":"Bye bye."}]}