WEBVTT 00:00:14.279 --> 00:00:15.147 Hello. 00:00:15.147 --> 00:00:20.652 Welcome to our friend the computer, we're a computer history podcast. 00:00:20.754 --> 00:00:22.554 I'm Camila. 00:00:22.554 --> 00:00:27.527 I'm a artist, writer, researcher. 00:00:27.626 --> 00:00:30.864 And I'm here with Ana. 00:00:30.929 --> 00:00:33.832 Mm. In real life in London. 00:00:33.832 --> 00:00:39.271 Normally, we do this across the seas, but we are both in London. 00:00:39.271 --> 00:00:41.540 We're actually in the same house. 00:00:41.540 --> 00:00:42.075 And we. 00:00:42.075 --> 00:00:44.210 We tried to record this in the same room. 00:00:44.210 --> 00:00:45.878 It couldn't work out. 00:00:45.878 --> 00:00:52.518 So we're currently sitting in different versions of the same house. 00:00:52.618 --> 00:00:53.820 Yeah, that's. 00:00:53.820 --> 00:00:57.557 That's how Luddite we are with our technology. 00:00:57.557 --> 00:01:03.329 Is that we couldn't figure out how to record with two mikes in the same room. 00:01:03.396 --> 00:01:06.266 So we had to separate. 00:01:06.266 --> 00:01:08.134 Which is sad. Sad. 00:01:08.134 --> 00:01:19.679 But it does feel more natural to be looking at you and saying, Oh, that would be so much more fun to like, do it in the same room, but maybe a different vibes would be really different. 00:01:19.846 --> 00:01:29.555 When we did the test recording, we were like, This feels weird when we are in the same room and felt like felt wrong. 00:01:29.621 --> 00:01:30.924 But now we're back to normal. 00:01:30.924 --> 00:01:37.296 So it's ok we're like pretending to be URL, but we're actually IRL. We're across the hall. 00:01:37.362 --> 00:01:37.963 Yeah. 00:01:37.963 --> 00:01:46.338 I've been on so many calls recently where it's like three people in one room with like two people on the screen and we're just trying to figure out how to make it work. 00:01:46.338 --> 00:01:53.146 The worst part of that is that the people on the screen are usually projected Really really large Yeah. 00:01:53.146 --> 00:02:03.989 On the wall I'm in like a video art crit group in New York and it's really it's really great. 00:02:03.989 --> 00:02:06.992 And there's some amazing artists in it. 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:16.703 And we meet up once a month and in like a studios screening space and somebody or two people will will show their work and then we talk about it. 00:02:16.769 --> 00:02:33.752 But I couldn't attend the last one because I had a like a COVID exposure and I didn't get COVID, but it was like I was just being careful that that my friend Erica, like, cradled me in her arms, like in a laptop screen. 00:02:33.786 --> 00:02:35.722 Oh my god. 00:02:35.722 --> 00:02:37.490 Like a laptop baby. 00:02:37.490 --> 00:02:42.328 Yeah, She would, like, turn me to look at people, but I didn't know if I could be heard. 00:02:42.328 --> 00:02:45.532 And so I kept texting her and being like, Can you just say this? 00:02:45.564 --> 00:02:48.568 And then she'd be like, Camila says this. 00:02:48.634 --> 00:02:50.336 I felt like I was. Yeah. 00:02:50.336 --> 00:02:51.069 I don't know. 00:02:51.069 --> 00:02:54.240 Existing that through. Through her. Yeah. 00:02:54.274 --> 00:03:00.979 It's so awkward when you have to exist As like a severed head in a space. 00:03:01.080 --> 00:03:06.618 When I saw you, we were like, at a café at the British Museum. 00:03:06.718 --> 00:03:12.692 And there was something about because it's so, like, white in more ways than one. 00:03:12.692 --> 00:03:20.133 And you were sitting, like, at a desk in the cafe table in the café, and then you were sort of framed. 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:22.502 And then I just felt like I was looking at a screen. 00:03:22.502 --> 00:03:22.735 Yeah. 00:03:22.735 --> 00:03:29.609 When we met for the first time in real life, we yeah, we were like, sitting opposite to each other. 00:03:29.675 --> 00:03:39.786 And it did kind of feel like I was just looking at a screen, but it was slightly more 3D because you're right, the way that it was lit, like the British Museum has this huge kind of windowed roof. 00:03:39.786 --> 00:03:48.328 So the lighting was incredible and it definitely felt like some kind of studio setup. 00:03:48.394 --> 00:03:49.562 Yeah. 00:03:49.562 --> 00:03:52.431 So now we're going to do a podcast episode. 00:03:52.431 --> 00:03:55.534 I feel kind of a little like, not quite right. 00:03:55.534 --> 00:04:00.372 Everything feels a little off, but yeah, we'll see how today goes. 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:23.896 Yeah, this is quite an exciting episode because it's about Belgium text and I'm half German and I speak the language and I visit my extended family in Germany quite often, so I know it's common knowledge, but I never get tired of the fact that Germans love a word amalgamation. 00:04:23.896 --> 00:04:25.197 And I used to see it everywhere. 00:04:25.197 --> 00:04:36.108 I even see it in the public world when I walk through Germany like cafes will be an amalgamation or like by trees and things like that. 00:04:36.108 --> 00:04:39.646 And yeah, they just love Mentos. 00:04:39.646 --> 00:04:53.459 I think that's the word, which is like the merging words together to form one new word and you get words that are sometimes at least 30 characters long, which is crazy. 00:04:53.526 --> 00:05:01.033 But I guess when you're saying the word, it doesn't feel like like for me, I don't speak like three words of German. 00:05:01.033 --> 00:05:05.672 So, you know, every word sounds just like a sound, you know. 00:05:05.672 --> 00:05:11.276 But yeah, I guess if you if you know German, you would understand the components. 00:05:11.444 --> 00:05:12.845 Yeah. Of the language. 00:05:12.845 --> 00:05:17.283 So even though it's really long, it wouldn't to me it's like, Whoa. 00:05:17.283 --> 00:05:19.351 Yeah. It's still part of a sentence. 00:05:19.351 --> 00:05:19.819 Yeah. 00:05:19.819 --> 00:05:23.423 And sentences are also the merging of words. 00:05:23.523 --> 00:05:27.959 They all sound like one big word if you're speaking in a different language. 00:05:28.026 --> 00:05:36.502 But a great example of portmanteau is, is Belgium text, which translates to scream text. 00:05:36.601 --> 00:05:41.641 But this word has two layers of compound words, actually. 00:05:41.841 --> 00:05:47.379 So the first instance of that is Belgium, which means screen. 00:05:47.447 --> 00:05:51.117 But the direct translation of that is also emerged. 00:05:51.117 --> 00:05:57.956 Word of the word bilt meaning image and shim, which means umbrella. 00:05:58.024 --> 00:06:05.764 I actually looked it up and I went into Google Translate and I just typed in Shem without detecting, without saying what language it is. 00:06:05.764 --> 00:06:08.266 But I wanted the robot. 00:06:08.266 --> 00:06:09.935 Yeah. So yeah. 00:06:09.935 --> 00:06:13.139 And shim actually means screen in Dutch. 00:06:13.305 --> 00:06:14.874 Oh yeah. 00:06:14.874 --> 00:06:19.211 Shim can also mean screen in German, but it's more rare. 00:06:19.278 --> 00:06:25.084 But yeah, I thought that this was quite a cute kind of definition of screen, which kind of means umbrella. 00:06:25.151 --> 00:06:27.754 An umbrella means kind of a shield. 00:06:27.754 --> 00:06:28.887 Yeah. 00:06:28.887 --> 00:06:36.461 So anyway, I thought this was quite a cute definition of screen, which means the image means umbrella. 00:06:36.461 --> 00:06:39.132 An umbrella is kind of seen as like a shield. 00:06:39.132 --> 00:06:41.834 I guess Screen can also be. 00:06:41.834 --> 00:06:44.704 Doesn't have to mean like a computer screen. 00:06:44.704 --> 00:06:48.440 Yeah, because other work like screen can also be. 00:06:48.540 --> 00:07:08.593 Yeah, like a shield, but it's sort of interesting looking at this portmanteau thing because I think it was last episode we were talking about how like, you know, all of these are video tech systems that they all had to have that are in unique name, teletext and video text amalgamations or compound words. 00:07:08.593 --> 00:07:17.937 And usually they they were sort of like a play on telly or video and then like text text or something like that. 00:07:18.004 --> 00:07:20.540 But this is, this is a little more creative. 00:07:20.540 --> 00:07:21.641 I like this one. 00:07:21.641 --> 00:07:30.315 Yeah, it's pretty much a complete translation, a complete adaptation to German, whereas you would have. 00:07:30.315 --> 00:07:30.483 Yeah. 00:07:30.483 --> 00:08:03.149 Like you said, in other countries they would just take the English word and then just add like an O to the end of it to like, make it sound more Spanish or Portuguese or Portuguese. I So yeah, so Belgium text was an online video tech system launched in West Germany in 1983 and similar to Presto in the UK, it was developed by the National Postal Service. 00:08:03.216 --> 00:08:25.637 And it's quite ironic because although Belgium text was a portmanteau so intentionally kind of amalgamated, it was later shortened and abbreviated to Btecs kind of sounds like a cryptocurrency now, and I guess because it was just too long of a word to use when it was Btecs is was it pronounced BTEC? 00:08:25.637 --> 00:08:33.645 So is it pronounced like how those letters would be said in German Btecs would be said in German like that. 00:08:33.745 --> 00:08:38.216 They two X, which is basically the same letter X. 00:08:38.283 --> 00:08:40.653 That's great. 00:08:40.653 --> 00:08:43.188 It's basically the same. Yeah. 00:08:43.288 --> 00:08:45.357 Which is quite handy here. 00:08:45.357 --> 00:09:13.919 And in 1949, Germany formally split into two independent nations, which was the Federal Republic of Germany, the FDR or West Germany, which was kind of allied to the Western democracies next to the German Democratic Republic, which is GDR or East Germany, which was allied to the Soviet Union. 00:09:13.985 --> 00:09:24.397 And this continued until 1990 when the two sides sides merged, represented and kind of trumpeted by the famous fall of the Berlin Wall. 00:09:24.462 --> 00:09:31.671 What I mean, you know, I know a bit about this history, but were they actually completely separate? 00:09:31.671 --> 00:09:33.773 They were separate countries. Yeah. 00:09:33.773 --> 00:09:36.174 That was in my head. 00:09:33.773 --> 00:09:36.174 I thought that that was that. 00:09:36.174 --> 00:09:44.417 It was just kind of like divided and I never really considered what that meant in terms of like governing. 00:09:44.417 --> 00:09:56.761 And so, so even when you would have if you would ever have people traveling from one side to the other, you would go through these checks and you would go check your passport. 00:09:56.761 --> 00:10:03.068 And actually the checks were even more intense then than traveling to any other European country. 00:10:03.068 --> 00:10:05.538 It's just funny because like, yeah, I know all of that. 00:10:05.538 --> 00:10:12.544 I just hadn't clicked in my head, I guess, because I was born just as the wall fell. 00:10:12.544 --> 00:10:18.250 So I guess, yeah, it just hadn't clicked for me that they were actually completely separate countries. 00:10:18.350 --> 00:10:54.186 Yeah, but I mean, it is quite weird because before then West Germany was kind of entrenched with the Western heralding of progress invested into developing technology, and they launched Belgium text, which collated data through the telephone network and then displayed the content on a television set which was very similar to Presto and it also drew inspiration from many tell in France by including some of the features in its display. 00:10:54.186 --> 00:10:56.121 So well. 00:10:56.121 --> 00:10:57.657 So unlike minutes. 00:10:57.657 --> 00:11:03.395 So it wasn't so much like terminal terminally access terminal access. 00:11:03.461 --> 00:11:09.402 It was like more through like an adapter and then the TV set. 00:11:09.501 --> 00:11:10.101 Okay. 00:11:10.101 --> 00:11:22.715 And then also, I mean, last that last episode when we looked at kept and we also were kind of looking at the way that Europe, I guess, divide it up all these different video text protocols. 00:11:22.715 --> 00:11:29.587 And I did notice last last episode that Belgium text had its own protocol. 00:11:29.788 --> 00:11:30.022 Yeah. 00:11:30.022 --> 00:11:39.899 So did they develop like it was inspired by Presto and Mini Tell Tale Hotel, but it was its own like completely separate development. 00:11:40.032 --> 00:12:02.620 No. So they use c one, but cpt1 was vtech, c P2 I think was presto, cp3 was minotaur oh four Well it was using c p p, which was the Central European, but they had different protocols like one was ATX, but they weren't compatible. 00:12:02.822 --> 00:12:09.861 So like Minotaur was I think number three, CBT was like the Central European whatever. 00:12:09.961 --> 00:12:17.135 But then they, but they were the ones that worked out like, oh, these are the four or five like different types. 00:12:17.135 --> 00:12:20.972 And you can if you're starting a new one, you should pick one of these to go with. 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:24.043 But they weren't compatible between each other I think. 00:12:24.076 --> 00:12:24.909 Yeah. 00:12:24.909 --> 00:12:54.740 Yeah that's, that's, that's interesting as well because like in this case you would have a different protocol, but some of the hardware is the same and I guess that is very representative of like trade and technology where you trade some of the hardware, but then you create your own software because of either language variations or you just like culturally and socially, you have different aims, which is quite interesting. 00:12:54.740 --> 00:12:57.375 Yeah, I think like the language thing is quite interesting. 00:12:57.375 --> 00:13:03.481 Yeah, but then the hardware you can, you can basically just like swap that around. Yeah. Yeah. 00:13:03.481 --> 00:13:14.626 Which is good because the later I think you know, larger companies like IBM and stuff, they would they like made their own, they made terminals and things for video techs. 00:13:14.626 --> 00:13:20.131 Yeah and I guess they could be used across a variety of countries. 00:13:20.198 --> 00:13:22.333 Yeah. Yeah. 00:13:22.333 --> 00:13:36.115 So yeah I mean normally gc4 thousand and computers were used to do this, which was like a hardware requirement which were commonly used in the UK as well. 00:13:36.182 --> 00:13:55.701 And they actually had to be bought or rented from the Brits. So, so you can kind of see the, like again, the political amalgamation here of the citizenship of the technology that was being built in West Germany at the time. 00:13:55.701 --> 00:14:20.558 So a lot of it was British influence, the hardware and I think we've you know, found this quite often in our research for this for the podcast is that the development of kind of state technology always had a political agenda and in this case the West was kind of trying to establish itself with it through trade and relationships with other states. 00:14:20.558 --> 00:14:26.398 And it would largely define what they mean as a nation or what they stand for. 00:14:26.465 --> 00:14:32.437 What who are their friends, who are their allies, what powers they kind of represent. 00:14:32.504 --> 00:14:42.280 And so a lot of these technology hardware relationships was like a collaboration with kind of strings attached. 00:14:42.380 --> 00:14:57.929 Do you know if it was West Germany was they were the ones that were kind of wanting to build a video tech service, or do you think maybe it was like a discussion in the European countries? 00:14:57.929 --> 00:15:27.058 Yeah, I think it was probably instigated by the Germans because they it was a great opportunity for like an economic investment, more like an economic liberation to make friends with with the UK and European Union and East Germany had a kind of very clear narrative or trade mark on the on the opposite side of the spectrum is that they very much represented the East and the Soviets. 00:15:27.125 --> 00:15:39.038 So the brand was pretty obvious, but West Germany was still kind of finding its feet with what they symbolized and who they rubbed shoulders with specifically. 00:15:39.104 --> 00:15:44.576 Also just kind of coming out of like being a fascist state and a Nazi state. 00:15:44.576 --> 00:15:49.748 And Germany had a very kind of strong identity crisis after World War Two. 00:15:49.815 --> 00:16:02.528 Its economy and reputation is completely shattered by the Nazi regime, and trading with the West required kind of like a thoroughly like new sound development or trust. 00:16:02.594 --> 00:16:19.644 And before West Germany could play with France and the UK in tech development, they had to rely on hardware developed within the nation and actually used a lot of technology from East Germany. 00:16:19.812 --> 00:16:25.451 So this was like before they got before they could like buy or rent stuff from the UK. 00:16:25.451 --> 00:16:27.986 Yeah, right. Yeah. 00:16:27.986 --> 00:16:31.690 And I stumbled upon this kind of famous picture. 00:16:31.756 --> 00:16:33.359 Yeah. You sent rounds on Twitter? 00:16:33.359 --> 00:16:34.158 Yeah. 00:16:34.158 --> 00:16:47.239 Of women in uniformed overalls pulling these carts of their little computers behind them during a socialist computer parade in East Berlin in 1907. 00:16:47.373 --> 00:16:53.379 It was like I thought it was a parade that was just like various things, that the whole parade was a computer parade. 00:16:53.479 --> 00:16:53.979 Oh, no. 00:16:53.979 --> 00:16:56.481 I think this was just like the computer section of the parade. 00:16:56.481 --> 00:16:57.149 Oh, yeah. 00:16:57.149 --> 00:17:03.688 So it's like it was like we should Maybe that's something we should do to get a parade. 00:17:03.755 --> 00:17:10.162 Yeah, No, I think it's just like a nation parade of, like, here's what we did as a state. 00:17:10.261 --> 00:17:23.208 And these computers were, I think p c 1715 built with GDR technology, and there's a CPU called the U. 00:17:23.208 --> 00:17:27.078 880, which is a Z 80 clone. 00:17:27.078 --> 00:17:37.489 This is what I read in the comments, but also some West German and Soviet Union chips were running on operating system called C.P. 00:17:37.556 --> 00:17:54.740 So what was common at the time in the eighties was that the Soviets made a lot of the hardware in their factories and sold or traded them with the West, who would then make their own digital encoding to run experiments and develop projects like in text. 00:17:54.740 --> 00:18:04.282 Guy So what was the, do you know, like what the kind of trade relationship was like between East and West Germany? 00:18:04.316 --> 00:18:05.817 Like around this time? Yeah. 00:18:05.817 --> 00:18:10.021 So it started off as absolutely no trade. 00:18:10.088 --> 00:18:13.558 There were embargoes and there were bans on trade. 00:18:13.625 --> 00:18:18.297 But towards the eighties I mean, so, so it all fell down. 00:18:18.297 --> 00:18:32.443 And in the nineties and in the eighties especially, you know, mid to late eighties, things were starting to be a little bit lawless and there was some illegal activity in terms of trade. 00:18:32.644 --> 00:18:36.481 The east was just falling apart. 00:18:36.548 --> 00:18:44.789 So there was a little bit more like liberal trade and the relationship was a little bit more liberal in the eighties. 00:18:44.856 --> 00:18:54.165 But yeah, I mean, purchases in the east of higher technologies from the west were under various embargoes, which then became a little bit more liberated over time. 00:18:54.266 --> 00:19:09.714 And with also the gradual waning of like Soviet power In the late 1980s, the Communist Party in East Germany began to lose its grip on power and actually, you know, tens of thousands of East Germans began to flee the nation. 00:19:09.714 --> 00:19:16.755 And by the late by late 1989, the Berlin Wall started to come down. 00:19:16.855 --> 00:19:20.992 The Soviets were set on producing their own tech. 00:19:20.992 --> 00:19:30.169 But the main chips that were produced in the GDR were more expensive in production than its Japanese or American counterparts. 00:19:30.169 --> 00:19:35.207 Because of these, you know, very strict trading policies. 00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:42.247 And some parts were imported from the West with high currency exchange rates from the from West Germany. 00:19:42.280 --> 00:19:44.782 Yeah, from exactly. 00:19:44.782 --> 00:20:01.232 And were sometimes traded illegally kind of circumventing these tech embargoes bans on trade between the COCOM, which is the economic organization between the two countries of the Eastern bloc. 00:20:01.232 --> 00:20:08.105 So the kind of like illegal trading was would that have been from independent actors within the government? 00:20:08.272 --> 00:20:15.614 Yeah, it must have all just been independent people and I actually told my German friend about this. 00:20:15.614 --> 00:20:21.519 We had a conversation about the technology that she was growing up with because she grew up in East Germany. 00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:42.507 I mean, this was after the wall fell down, but there's still some remnants of that culturally and economically. And she said that, you know, of course, even playing on old computers when she was growing up in late nineties, Germany, you could easily distinguish like Soviet keyboards to more Western ones. 00:20:42.574 --> 00:20:45.410 Did she say why or how? I don't know. 00:20:45.410 --> 00:20:50.816 I think she has a very good understanding of like Soviet esthetic. 00:20:50.848 --> 00:20:53.785 I'm like, compared to different fonts. 00:20:53.785 --> 00:21:02.894 Yeah, different forms and yeah, I don't know, maybe she was just, just chatting ship them. 00:21:02.994 --> 00:21:26.151 But I think I think also maybe she related like nostalgic old pieces of tech to Eastern tech, which is not necessarily true, but it's interesting to think about like the, the esthetics of the tech that we use, the computers and things like that, like how we got to the point where we're at now. 00:21:26.151 --> 00:21:44.769 Like I'm looking at my Apple keyboard and, you know, like everything's built on what came before, but there were other tech worlds that didn't necessarily get to the point that we're at now that had a different esthetic esthetic for our computers. 00:21:44.869 --> 00:22:01.353 It's interesting to think about how we related also to socialist projects and the the esthetic of socialism, because if we even look at like Minato or the Syverson Ops room or OG. 00:22:01.353 --> 00:22:02.820 Yes. Yeah. 00:22:02.820 --> 00:22:14.732 We make a very quick conclusion to think that just because something looks socialist, it's it's because it looks old, especially when we're thinking about tech. 00:22:14.732 --> 00:22:15.032 Yeah. 00:22:15.032 --> 00:22:46.131 And I guess there's like different eras of tech esthetics, even like, you know, the twins like, clear see through Macintoshes and the that I really associate with like a sudden cultural era that very much it's like very much connected to the United States and yeah, and the invention of transparent design as well, which was more of like an interface design choice, but that was invented in the States for Apple. 00:22:46.298 --> 00:22:50.902 And I think very much like represents the idea of neoliberalism. 00:22:51.001 --> 00:23:07.318 But we can get into that on a different Yeah, I mean yeah, so I have haven't I was thinking the other day about how like I miss being able to look inside as like an esthetic of computers, like I had a computer, like a PC growing up. 00:23:07.318 --> 00:23:19.830 And I'm pretty sure at least one iteration of it had like a clear side to the tower and it had like rainbow lights inside. 00:23:19.830 --> 00:23:23.634 So you could like see inside of those like a fan and stuff like that. 00:23:23.634 --> 00:23:25.670 And I remember thinking it was the coolest. 00:23:25.670 --> 00:23:28.373 Oh, that is so cool. 00:23:25.670 --> 00:23:28.373 You have to look inside. 00:23:28.373 --> 00:23:37.382 But now everything's like closed off and Apple have their own, like proprietary screws, you know, things like that. 00:23:37.548 --> 00:23:38.650 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. 00:23:38.650 --> 00:23:41.653 Like the actual dismantling of it is very impenetrable. 00:23:41.685 --> 00:23:44.221 Mm hmm. Like light up shoes, but like a light up. 00:23:44.221 --> 00:23:45.457 Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. 00:23:45.457 --> 00:23:46.825 Is that the same vibe? 00:23:46.825 --> 00:23:49.294 Yeah. 00:23:49.294 --> 00:23:58.202 But I also want to say that, you know, Belgium texts was so kind of of its time, not just via the political history, but also. 00:23:58.202 --> 00:24:08.980 Yeah, it's its esthetic and we always relate the 32 bit imagery to the eighties and Belgium text has a lot to do with that. 00:24:09.047 --> 00:24:15.019 Is that is it video text or is it Belgian text specifically I guess is video text. 00:24:15.019 --> 00:24:16.320 Yeah, you're right. 00:24:16.320 --> 00:24:16.688 Yeah. 00:24:16.688 --> 00:24:54.859 It used the standard video text profile called CP T, which displays graphics by a 480, I think by 250 pixel resolution where there is only 32 colors kind of could be shown at the same time out of a palette of about 4000 and Oh yeah, and I wonder what these like 4000 colors were and how they have translated to our understanding of what the eighties looked like because 4000 is still not really that many. 00:24:54.859 --> 00:24:58.128 Like, that's quite a pixelated color wheel. 00:24:58.230 --> 00:25:03.868 I feel like these 4000 colors that they chose I think is kind of established. 00:25:03.902 --> 00:25:14.011 Our idea of like eighties products and eighties tech and maybe that's how eighties are still visualized in movies and culture. 00:25:14.278 --> 00:25:23.721 I'm also thinking about like the era when gradients were really in and I'm like, well, maybe that's because suddenly we had like a jump in. 00:25:23.821 --> 00:25:25.891 Yeah, in the amount of pixels that. Yeah. 00:25:25.891 --> 00:25:28.527 And so suddenly you could have like a smooth gradient. 00:25:28.527 --> 00:25:29.894 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. 00:25:29.894 --> 00:25:40.471 Because all of this, all of this information about what we have of the past is translated through screens, it's translated through movies, TV shows and games. 00:25:40.538 --> 00:25:51.449 Yeah, there's just something quite interesting about what colors were used and how that was then translated over time, through screens and through the choice of how many pixels were allowed to use. 00:25:51.516 --> 00:25:51.816 Yeah. 00:25:51.816 --> 00:26:03.662 And like how that affects other things like fashion, makeup and all the, all the sort of cultural indicators, cultural things that going on at the time. 00:26:03.728 --> 00:26:04.528 Yeah. 00:26:04.528 --> 00:26:11.001 So boutiques had been made obsolete by the Internet at the end of 2001. 00:26:11.001 --> 00:26:14.005 It was still running until that time. 00:26:14.239 --> 00:26:26.483 It's kind of I know before it was shut down by Deutsche Telekom, which is German T Mobile and Telecom is spelled with a K. 00:26:26.483 --> 00:26:28.686 Yeah, I love it. 00:26:28.686 --> 00:26:43.867 I know it's yeah, it was done by them, even though it formed the basis of the Deutsche Telekom online service, which maintained a BT interface even after 1995 when the brand was first introduced. 00:26:43.867 --> 00:26:47.771 So actually the interface was pretty old school. 00:26:47.838 --> 00:26:54.712 And this is crazy to me because my first ever phone was a T mobile phone. 00:26:54.813 --> 00:26:56.080 Is this in Germany? 00:26:56.080 --> 00:26:58.182 Oh, it's in Czech Republic, Yeah. 00:26:58.182 --> 00:27:01.051 So close by they would have used the same stuff. 00:27:01.051 --> 00:27:12.963 And I remember it was like a blue squarish flip phone with a little antenna and a dark green background with massive pixels pop probably 32 bit. 00:27:12.963 --> 00:27:20.404 Now that I think about it, and it could only display green and black and it had the snake game on it. 00:27:20.471 --> 00:27:23.141 I miss the snake. 00:27:23.141 --> 00:27:25.376 R.I.P. Snake game Snake. 00:27:25.376 --> 00:27:31.982 I love this V so many light game apps that are doing game, but it's not the static snake. It's not the same. 00:27:31.982 --> 00:27:33.917 It's going to be like on your phone. 00:27:33.917 --> 00:27:36.721 You have to be on the panel. 00:27:36.721 --> 00:27:38.056 I can still. 00:27:38.056 --> 00:27:43.127 My mom had snake on a phone before I had a phone and it was like a Nokia. 00:27:43.327 --> 00:27:47.132 Yeah, it was like not the flip phone is like before the flip phone. 00:27:47.365 --> 00:27:52.936 And I remember the buttons being these like rubbery and the fear I have. 00:27:52.936 --> 00:27:59.443 Like I really remember like the feeling of, like pressing down on the buttons, playing snake and trying to. 00:27:59.544 --> 00:28:03.347 I feel like it's not even a digital game. 00:28:03.347 --> 00:28:05.383 It's a physical game. 00:28:05.383 --> 00:28:21.900 It's almost like a game that you hold and you have to like, get the little, the the hoop over the hook, you know, those little handheld games, like get the little ball bearings into certain holes and yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:28:21.900 --> 00:28:25.836 That usually kind of the friction of the button pressing too. 00:28:25.836 --> 00:28:26.304 Yeah. 00:28:26.304 --> 00:28:30.107 And it like pushes the Yeah, yeah. 00:28:30.307 --> 00:28:32.810 There was like a few different sorts. 00:28:32.810 --> 00:28:33.978 That's so cool. 00:28:33.978 --> 00:28:38.115 We should do an episode about like what about those game games. 00:28:38.115 --> 00:28:38.415 Yeah. 00:28:38.415 --> 00:28:45.723 And how they translated from being you press something to make something physical happen to. 00:28:45.789 --> 00:28:48.593 Yeah. 00:28:45.789 --> 00:28:48.593 The digital implementation of buttons. 00:28:48.593 --> 00:28:50.595 I did watch this like old movie recently. 00:28:50.595 --> 00:28:51.962 I can't remember which one it was. 00:28:51.962 --> 00:28:54.332 I can like find it, put it in the show notes or something. 00:28:54.332 --> 00:28:59.403 But there was a, there was a character like a brooding guy. 00:28:59.471 --> 00:29:09.114 I think it was Anwar, and he he had carried with him everywhere like a little one of those little games, but not one with buttons like one that you have to kind of have flat. 00:29:09.114 --> 00:29:11.482 And then you're trying to get the ball bearings into the holes. 00:29:11.482 --> 00:29:26.463 And I think it was baseball related in some way, but it was almost like instead of a mobile phone, like he'd just be like waiting somewhere and he'd pull it out and like, play with it and then do these weird kind of movements with his body, Right? 00:29:26.498 --> 00:29:26.865 Yeah. 00:29:26.865 --> 00:29:31.001 Well, it was more yeah, I think like the camera, like, just zoomed in on the game. 00:29:31.068 --> 00:29:31.536 Okay. 00:29:31.536 --> 00:29:34.506 It would show him using it, but it kind of. 00:29:34.506 --> 00:29:35.373 Yeah, I suppose. 00:29:35.373 --> 00:29:38.910 Like the phone replaced. Yeah. And now. 00:29:38.910 --> 00:30:02.166 But now you have the sensory trackers in your phone and you have motion trackers and you have GPS trackers that actually make you now do this physical simulation that is supposed to reflect something in the game, but you're doing it with your body at home, which is very weird. 00:30:02.166 --> 00:30:11.142 I read something about how, you know, everyone now is like, oh, you know, people like looking down at their phones and walking around and like, not looking up or whatever. 00:30:11.342 --> 00:30:18.482 But I did read something a while ago about how ages ago there was like a craze in kaleidoscopes. 00:30:18.549 --> 00:30:21.152 You know, those things that you look through and you can like, Yeah. 00:30:21.152 --> 00:30:24.756 And there's like sparkles inside and stuff and it makes like you're looking at all weird. 00:30:24.756 --> 00:30:32.462 And apparently whenever this was, people would like, walk around and like looking in them and crash in to pay for anything and they kaleidoscopes. 00:30:32.462 --> 00:30:38.603 And there was like articles like this is a recorder, you know. Yeah. 00:30:38.603 --> 00:30:40.505 When was this right. Let me look it up. 00:30:40.505 --> 00:30:48.779 It was invented in 1816 and I think it became a thing just like after that, like early, early 19th century. 00:30:48.980 --> 00:30:49.413 Yeah. 00:30:49.413 --> 00:30:53.050 The first consumable technology. 00:30:53.151 --> 00:31:07.531 But I think, I think that it just sort of shows that a lot of the things that we think about, about phones or that, you know, it's like, oh, they're time wasters or, you know, we're just like scrolling or we're on them all the time. 00:31:07.531 --> 00:31:09.634 We don't look up. 00:31:09.701 --> 00:31:13.304 I think a lot of that actually is just replacing other shit that we. 00:31:13.304 --> 00:31:13.837 Yeah, yeah. 00:31:13.837 --> 00:31:16.140 I never use like to waste time. 00:31:16.140 --> 00:31:17.709 It's fine to be. Yeah. 00:31:17.709 --> 00:31:20.278 You don't have to be productive and working all the time. 00:31:20.278 --> 00:31:38.296 I mean, sure, if you bump into people, like that's kind of annoying, but even the stuff that's bad, like if you think of being addicted to scrolling or whatever, like, I'm sure there were random things that people were doing, like little pocket devices and stuff like games and things, books, even books or reading. 00:31:38.395 --> 00:31:45.236 I know or I'm addicted to read, but yeah, that like a lot of it is just human nature. 00:31:45.236 --> 00:31:52.911 And yeah, you know, at the moment the tool that is mainstream for that is a phone is a phone. 00:31:53.010 --> 00:31:57.147 But for years we did the same stuff with whatever it was. 00:31:57.147 --> 00:32:00.117 It had. Yeah, we're just distracted creatures. 00:32:00.117 --> 00:32:06.257 We just need, we just need to be constantly amused. 00:32:06.356 --> 00:32:06.657 Yeah. 00:32:06.657 --> 00:32:34.685 I mean, like going back to this interface development, which was still in the mid to late nineties, it was still using eighties video text interface, but through Btecs it's kind of crazy to think about because this phone that I was using to think that I was essentially using parts of BTEC technology is is just wild to me and it obviously makes me feel really old. 00:32:34.786 --> 00:32:44.662 But at the same time it's, it's fun to think about how you can spot little visual snippets of kind of tech evolution in products that you're using now and that you used to use as a kid. 00:32:44.895 --> 00:32:56.874 I think that we're living through a really particular moment in history where like we still have access to a lot of the people that started the whole computer thing. 00:32:56.941 --> 00:33:06.049 And you and I, like you're a little younger than me, but I think we're both sort of of the generation that didn't have Internet. 00:33:06.049 --> 00:33:14.692 And then did, you know, even just like the shift from a Nokia flip phone to an iPhone to a smartphone was ridiculous. 00:33:14.692 --> 00:33:14.959 Yeah. 00:33:14.959 --> 00:33:24.801 And it's kind of cool to be living through that and to be able to notice and experience the way things kind of evolve. 00:33:24.902 --> 00:33:25.769 Yeah, Yeah. 00:33:25.769 --> 00:33:35.512 I think our phones are really good tracking of that because they were around for a long time and they changed a lot. 00:33:35.512 --> 00:33:46.824 And with the introduction of the iPhone that then spewed into the product launches of, of MacBook S and different computers. 00:33:47.025 --> 00:34:00.570 So I think again, like what we've really learned from some of these podcasts is that these phone networks were so, so important to the development of computers and networks in general and online networks like the Internet. 00:34:00.637 --> 00:34:07.077 But yeah, unfortunately the story of Btc's has a bit of a tragic ending and reputation. 00:34:07.310 --> 00:34:15.820 It had serious security issues because data was transferred unauthenticated and in plaintext. 00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:20.891 I guess like at the time they didn't really think about, they were like, Yeah, it's safe. 00:34:20.891 --> 00:34:26.396 Yeah, I was saying like it was in plaintext now, but I'm not sure if there was like another option. 00:34:26.463 --> 00:34:28.565 True, True. 00:34:28.565 --> 00:34:29.000 Yeah. 00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:48.219 I mean, it led to the the Btc's hack by Wow Holland in 1984, which was not that long ago after its launch. No, it's a very well known case in computer science kind of folklore. 00:34:48.351 --> 00:34:55.059 But yeah, so while Holland was part of the chaos Computer Club, the key. 00:34:55.259 --> 00:34:56.793 That's a great name. 00:34:56.793 --> 00:34:57.094 Yeah. 00:34:57.094 --> 00:35:00.097 If I had a club, I'd be like, It's chaos. 00:35:00.197 --> 00:35:04.101 And it's also like organized crime where chaotic. 00:35:04.101 --> 00:35:13.710 But we're also a club and we're really and this is the secretary and this is and just by chance we have a name that is also has a lot of alliteration in it. 00:35:13.710 --> 00:35:14.711 Yeah. 00:35:14.711 --> 00:35:18.349 Good for logos Yeah. 00:35:18.449 --> 00:35:40.003 And so this yeah that club was founded in the early eighties and it was very popular between German speaking communities is I think it was made up of 7700 members and it's apparently Europe's largest association of hackers and essentially became famous because of the BTCS hack. 00:35:40.237 --> 00:35:53.384 So the ATX hack caused the system to debit 134,000 Deutschmark, which would be about 70 to 80000 U.S. 00:35:53.384 --> 00:35:53.818 dollars. 00:35:53.818 --> 00:35:57.188 Today in a bank in Hamburg. 00:35:57.255 --> 00:36:08.298 And the money was returned the next day in front of the press, which the club must have set up because there were very public and open about this hack. 00:36:08.398 --> 00:36:09.766 Well, I guess they're trying. 00:36:09.766 --> 00:36:14.838 They were worried that they realized that the system was really easily hackable. Yes. 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:19.943 And they wanted I guess the government wasn't doing anything about it and they wanted to actually make it obvious. 00:36:19.943 --> 00:36:25.650 The ATX could have also caused a lot of individual issues as well. 00:36:25.650 --> 00:36:33.990 Like I don't think it was a completely bulletproof interface and system and I can imagine people were quite annoyed by it sometimes. 00:36:33.990 --> 00:36:46.403 And so these hackers kind of made this plan to steal the money and then give it back and not be imprisoned and just kind of make a public statement about it. 00:36:46.469 --> 00:36:56.947 There's even we even watch some YouTube videos earlier of the hackers like speaking very openly about the hack to a German interviewer. 00:36:56.947 --> 00:37:05.322 And they were quite pompous in talking about how unsafe it was and how terrible the system was. 00:37:05.389 --> 00:37:18.603 The CDC completely debunked the assumption that the BTCC system was safe to use for the public, even though it was the biggest commercially available online system at the time. 00:37:18.668 --> 00:37:31.514 And it was run and heavily advertised by the West German Telecommunications Agency and Postal Service, which also strove to keep up to date alternatives out of the market. 00:37:31.615 --> 00:37:32.983 Oh, wow. Okay. 00:37:32.983 --> 00:37:37.954 So there were like other options and they're like, no, this is someone with a little money into it. 00:37:37.954 --> 00:37:50.367 So again, because they developed it, Yeah, so much for Western structures of, you know, a rigid freedom of information just didn't didn't work very well. 00:37:50.367 --> 00:38:10.855 And also a little ironic because it was btcs was yeah, like we said earlier, very much a statement of the time that's West Germany inventing new technology, aligning itself to Western counterparts that were making their own technology and using CPE and monitor and liberating society. 00:38:10.855 --> 00:38:15.458 Yeah, I think it was very embarrassing when this hack happened. 00:38:15.458 --> 00:38:39.483 Politically, I feel like this hack, like a hack like this could have happened probably in any country that had a video text service that it's, I don't know, sort of interesting to like think about it within the context of everything you've said about in the political history of Germany and West Germany and that sort of, I guess, the video tech system. 00:38:39.750 --> 00:38:40.016 Yeah. 00:38:40.016 --> 00:38:56.199 Was this like striving to align with Western Europe and yeah, that it's being kind of dissected a little bit more or kind of critiqued or questioned by individuals by how high the club. Yeah. 00:38:56.300 --> 00:38:58.601 By communities know for sure. 00:38:58.601 --> 00:39:07.644 And they really made it clear that they thought it was a really bad system. 00:39:07.711 --> 00:39:35.005 The fact that they really underscored this was because there was this disbelief in the political system, I think as well, a little bit in West Germany, you know, there was a divide and West Germany was more liberal and it was better than East, but there were still people that there are still issues in the system and people that were disheartened by the divide and by the fact that maybe even West Germany wasn't doing enough then I think it was very much symbolized. 00:39:35.005 --> 00:39:41.010 And in some of the anarchistic views of like the Chaos Computer Club and the hackers. 00:39:41.010 --> 00:39:45.648 And so I think it was a bit of a would say political statement as well. 00:39:45.815 --> 00:39:59.130 I think the the Cass Computer Club is quite interesting because they did a lot of hacks, but there were also like related to a lot of financial tool hacks of of systems that weren't secure with moving money around. 00:39:59.195 --> 00:40:19.983 And the fact that that happened again in the eighties when the East was so deprived and in so much poverty and money was truly it was so was such an issue for the East that it was almost like, I think, a sense of to the Germans in the West to be like the Deutsche Bank is just moving money around so freely. 00:40:19.983 --> 00:40:28.759 And it's so, it's so kind of liberal in its transferring juxtaposed to the poverty that's happening in the East. 00:40:28.759 --> 00:40:52.817 I think it was quite emotionally charged because again, like a lot of people would have family and friends in the East and the West and socially the divide was terrible for the Deutsche Bank just handled it in such a carefree way and say like, yeah, that sort of interaction, the East west interaction, given that the tech originally was coming from the East. 00:40:52.916 --> 00:40:54.184 Yeah, yeah. 00:40:54.184 --> 00:40:58.655 And that there was a kind of hidden collaboration there and that it was just mishandled. 00:40:58.722 --> 00:41:01.391 Yeah. Anyway, thanks for this. Great. 00:41:01.391 --> 00:41:07.697 Yeah, thanks. Thanks for listening. Yeah, I guess we're going to go explore London. 00:41:07.697 --> 00:41:12.402 I'm going to open the door, and then you open your door and then we'll be in the hallway together. 00:41:12.503 --> 00:41:15.172 We'll give each other a pat on the back. 00:41:15.172 --> 00:41:16.706 Is it handshake? 00:41:16.706 --> 00:41:20.043 Business like handshake? Next episode. 00:41:20.043 --> 00:41:27.451 I know we've got a couple of just a couple more left in this season, and then we're going to kind of move on to some other interesting topics. 00:41:27.451 --> 00:41:31.956 So we're got to work out what order we're going to do some things. 00:41:32.021 --> 00:41:42.632 Yeah, I'm here this week largely to go to a pool tournament, so my teacher is playing, which is sort of fun, but he's German, so maybe we can ask him. 00:41:42.699 --> 00:41:44.768 We can ask him about some texts. 00:41:44.768 --> 00:41:54.545 Yeah, I wouldn't have been around in the eighties as well, so yeah, he would have said, Yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to go up some pool now and enjoy London. 00:41:54.545 --> 00:41:55.679 Yeah, but thanks. 00:41:55.679 --> 00:41:55.913 Yeah. 00:41:55.913 --> 00:41:58.681 Thanks everyone for listening and being here with us. 00:41:58.681 --> 00:42:02.152 Yes, thanks everyone. Bye bye.