WEBVTT 00:00:14.114 --> 00:00:16.815 Welcome to our friend, the computer. 00:00:16.815 --> 00:00:31.797 We explore niche computer history is focusing on society and politics and alternative narratives to the popular story about the evolution of computers and the World Wide Web. 00:00:31.864 --> 00:00:39.139 And we are now a sister project of the Media Archeology Lab at the University of Colorado at Boulder. 00:00:39.238 --> 00:00:41.408 So that's very exciting. 00:00:41.408 --> 00:00:47.713 And if you haven't already, we would love for you to subscribe to us wherever you are listening right now. 00:00:47.814 --> 00:00:51.216 And the dream is that you would leave us five stars and a review. 00:00:51.250 --> 00:00:53.253 We would love that. 00:00:53.253 --> 00:00:58.524 Our favorite review says, If I were a computer, I would be proud. 00:00:58.524 --> 00:00:59.893 And it's from Computer Gherkin. 00:00:59.893 --> 00:01:03.262 And so thank you, computer Gherkin and lots of love to computer Gherkin. 00:01:03.262 --> 00:01:08.501 And we are proud of you, regardless of our Gherkin status. 00:01:08.600 --> 00:01:11.070 Hi Ana. Hey, Camila. 00:01:11.070 --> 00:01:12.105 How are you? 00:01:12.105 --> 00:01:13.006 I'm good. 00:01:13.006 --> 00:01:15.007 How are you? What have you been up to? 00:01:15.007 --> 00:01:16.775 I'm good. 00:01:16.775 --> 00:01:18.444 What have I been up to? 00:01:18.444 --> 00:01:20.313 Mostly just work and. 00:01:20.313 --> 00:01:33.093 But I went to a fun event a week ago, and it was actually the exhibition that I mentioned in our last episode for a time on that called Another World at the ICA. 00:01:33.093 --> 00:01:35.161 It was a closing event. 00:01:35.161 --> 00:01:49.042 I was like, there was like I wasn't well, I was invited to the the whole day, so it was like a tour and a buffet lunch and then like another tour and the talk and drinks reception afterwards. 00:01:49.042 --> 00:01:53.646 But I only managed to make it to the talk, which was really interesting. 00:01:53.646 --> 00:01:56.882 There was quite a lot of crypto talk. 00:01:57.117 --> 00:01:58.117 Yeah, Drinks were great. 00:01:58.117 --> 00:02:03.456 I saw my old tutor there, my old design tutor who was quite it was funny. 00:02:03.456 --> 00:02:08.093 He was there with his like dungarees and long hair and being very cynical about the whole crypto. 00:02:08.093 --> 00:02:13.299 It was the talk pro crypto? 00:02:13.500 --> 00:02:14.300 Yeah. 00:02:14.300 --> 00:02:33.118 So there was someone on the panel that was like a representative of some kind of blockchain technology and they were talking about like how blockchain and web3 could potentially help the idea because, you know, like we said, a lot of the Tamil websites were taken down by the government. 00:02:28.914 --> 00:02:38.191 With like a blockchain based web that wouldn't happen because no one would be able to take anything down, especially governments or platforms. 00:02:38.191 --> 00:02:41.627 So yeah, they just kind of talked about the potential of that. 00:02:41.627 --> 00:02:44.129 And I don't know, there's a lot of thoughts around it. 00:02:44.129 --> 00:02:54.841 There's a lot of like a lot of opinions about it when we don't actually know like anything about how it's going to carry out or like how it's going to play out. 00:02:54.941 --> 00:03:01.114 It's going to be like, you know, at least a couple of decades until this stuff will actually be in use. 00:03:01.114 --> 00:03:05.217 And I think we're going through this kind of hype stage. 00:03:05.217 --> 00:03:14.159 The first kind of hype stage, I think there's probably going to be like two or three more hype stages that will go through before it's actually carried out. 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:15.662 And I'm sure it will carry out. 00:03:15.662 --> 00:03:17.830 I'm sure it will become a reality at some point. 00:03:17.830 --> 00:03:24.971 But yeah, it's just it's just a lot of a lot of cap, no action, you know. 00:03:25.104 --> 00:03:26.639 But but yeah, it was fun. 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:27.439 It was really fun. 00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:27.907 Yeah. 00:03:27.907 --> 00:03:31.144 What have you been up to driving up to? 00:03:31.211 --> 00:03:35.949 Uh. I was riding during the day. 00:03:35.949 --> 00:03:37.182 It took me a minute. 00:03:37.182 --> 00:03:38.784 Um, I went to. 00:03:38.784 --> 00:03:50.395 There's an exhibition at MoMA that I went to, but I want to talk about it more next week because I think it's probably relevant more to that episode. But it was so I. 00:03:50.395 --> 00:03:50.862 I got it. 00:03:50.862 --> 00:03:56.201 i-D NYC, which is like a state ID card. 00:03:56.269 --> 00:03:59.906 That's not it's not a it's not a driver's license. 00:03:59.906 --> 00:04:05.044 It's like a specific state object. But and I felt very proud of myself of doing it. 00:04:05.044 --> 00:04:15.455 It was like I, you know, now I officially live here and it gives you like free one year memberships to a bunch of museums. 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:22.762 And I had some time to kill last week or the week before I came about, and I thought, I'll go to MoMA. 00:04:22.862 --> 00:04:37.944 And I got so I got a free membership and I was really excited and I was looking around and I found this exhibition that was in sort of like the foyer area is a sort of a project space vibe and I actually think it might have been free. 00:04:38.043 --> 00:04:38.911 I was so excited. 00:04:38.911 --> 00:04:41.047 I was like, Oh, I can't do this. Membership. 00:04:41.047 --> 00:04:46.418 But they didn't check my membership card when I walked in and it wasn't past the ticket entrance. 00:04:46.485 --> 00:04:51.923 It was like a video game history exhibition. 00:04:51.990 --> 00:04:52.891 Cool. 00:04:52.891 --> 00:04:55.862 So it had a MoMA. Yeah. 00:04:55.862 --> 00:04:59.732 And it was pulled from also pulled from the collection, which was cool. 00:04:59.966 --> 00:05:08.708 So it was some like video games projected that were just playing some stuff you could play and then some objects too. 00:05:08.740 --> 00:05:13.346 So they had some, oh, computers and like the first iPod. 00:05:13.346 --> 00:05:16.249 And could you play on them now. 00:05:16.249 --> 00:05:28.761 Oh see that's that is, you know, museums that the thing it's like I was going to ask you like are the computer museums better than like art museums that show computers and computer games? 00:05:28.961 --> 00:05:35.000 And I think in some ways that is because probably the displays are have better quality, I think. 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:44.944 But they're not as interactive, tend to the ones that we've been to for me tend to focus a lot more on like live engagement. 00:05:45.011 --> 00:06:00.459 Yeah, engagement and trying to get people to understand that side of like historical objects and even that idea of like conservation of these things isn't just about the object, but it's about the way they were used, right? 00:06:00.459 --> 00:06:06.331 Like, what's the point of conservation if they're not being experienced? 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:22.148 So and my experience here and also at the um is a called the Science Museum in London that I went to you, uh, it's more like the objects of behind glass and that's the ones that are in this exhibition. 00:06:22.214 --> 00:06:24.951 A few of them were on like stuff was happening on the screen. 00:06:24.951 --> 00:06:36.095 I'm not sure if they were actually on or if they were like a projection inside the screen because they weren't being they were like moving around, but they weren't being moved. 00:06:36.194 --> 00:06:40.632 Yeah, but yeah, I don't know. 00:06:40.632 --> 00:06:41.500 It's different. 00:06:41.500 --> 00:07:02.855 They did have a, um, a book that I guess was in their collection of designs for like emojis and things like on graph and you could I made a real on out Instagram if you want to look, but it was a, it was all sketchy and it was a and, and so you could like swipe the pages digitally. 00:07:02.922 --> 00:07:03.456 Mm hmm. 00:07:03.456 --> 00:07:06.759 Which that's. Oh, yeah. 00:07:06.826 --> 00:07:08.761 I mean, if I can't touch it. 00:07:08.761 --> 00:07:09.161 Yeah. 00:07:09.161 --> 00:07:16.435 The physical thing like I would rather be, you know, be able to swipe through on a, on a screen. 00:07:16.435 --> 00:07:17.370 Yeah, it was good. 00:07:17.370 --> 00:07:22.307 I'd recommend checking it out, but I'll go into some more detail next episode. 00:07:22.307 --> 00:07:23.209 But yeah, I did that. 00:07:23.209 --> 00:07:24.610 That was fun. Yeah. 00:07:24.610 --> 00:07:30.783 And the thing that I was doing that I need to fill in time was I went to see The Music Man on Broadway and I rushed it. 00:07:30.783 --> 00:07:36.322 So you have to, like, line up at six in the morning in the cold and to get tickets. 00:07:36.322 --> 00:07:42.562 And so we got tickets and then had to fill in and we went to Applebee's, which was actually really good. 00:07:42.562 --> 00:07:59.745 I've never been. And then what you, um. I got pancakes and a side of, like, breakfast potatoes and and endless bottomless tea, which is cool because it's like a breakfast place, right? 00:07:59.745 --> 00:08:02.113 It's like an American diner. 00:08:02.113 --> 00:08:04.550 Yeah. Yeah. Oh, right. 00:08:04.550 --> 00:08:07.552 And at breakfast time. So. Yeah. 00:08:07.620 --> 00:08:13.860 And then I had a couple of hours to fill, so I went over to my mom, and the music was really good. 00:08:13.925 --> 00:08:18.865 One fellow Australian is one of his last performances. 00:08:19.064 --> 00:08:24.036 Wow. And Foster, who I is. 00:08:24.036 --> 00:08:31.776 I remember her because I really liked a musical musical called Thoroughly Modern Millie when I was younger because my nickname in high school was Millie. 00:08:31.843 --> 00:08:32.410 Oh, was it? 00:08:32.410 --> 00:08:42.421 She was also in that show Bunheads, which I enjoyed just And it was made by the lady that did Gilmore Girls. 00:08:42.421 --> 00:08:46.091 So it's that Oh, I think I have actually, I now should have. 00:08:46.091 --> 00:08:49.495 I like it. Yeah. A studio. 00:08:49.495 --> 00:08:50.363 Yes. Yeah. 00:08:50.363 --> 00:08:56.201 In a small town it's and then she was in that one with younger with Hilary Duff. 00:08:56.269 --> 00:08:58.136 Anyway that's what I've been doing. 00:08:58.136 --> 00:08:59.038 Oh sounds fun. 00:08:59.038 --> 00:09:03.875 I like your commitment of staying out to buy tickets at 6 a.m.. 00:09:04.076 --> 00:09:11.683 It destroyed me the next day, but then we bought tickets for like $600 if I hadn't done it. 00:09:11.783 --> 00:09:15.955 And I probably want to get some for I missed out on the rush tickets. 00:09:15.955 --> 00:09:19.191 The rush tickets are like 50, but I got mine for 100. 00:09:19.292 --> 00:09:20.493 I mean, we missed out. 00:09:20.493 --> 00:09:23.929 We missed out by like two people in the line for the rush tickets. 00:09:23.929 --> 00:09:28.234 But it did mean that there were three of us that we could sit together, which was good in the seats. 00:09:28.234 --> 00:09:29.634 Good. 00:09:29.701 --> 00:09:50.022 But the reason I wanted to go more so was that it has its about pool in a roundabout way, and I don't know if everyone knows I play pool and because it's like pool is bad and it's going to like it's the devil's boat and it's it's going to destroy you children going to hang out in the pool room. 00:09:50.022 --> 00:09:51.023 So that's bad. 00:09:51.023 --> 00:09:59.432 And so we have to get them to join a band and that's how it will like a marching band and that's how we'll save them. 00:09:59.432 --> 00:10:02.168 So that's kind of there's a that's a while. 00:10:02.168 --> 00:10:04.437 So I really want to add one point. 00:10:04.437 --> 00:10:09.442 They bring out like a pool table that they're in because the town's getting a pool that they're installing. 00:10:09.442 --> 00:10:10.809 And I was like, Oh, a pool table. 00:10:10.809 --> 00:10:14.312 And then it just never, never shows. 00:10:14.379 --> 00:10:21.754 I was glad I ever knew that there was like a stigma attached to, Oh, yeah, I mean, that's a whole I should see that. 00:10:21.754 --> 00:10:30.296 I should see the musical then to, to find out when it comes to the West End, you can see, but I'm not going to pay $600 for that. 00:10:30.363 --> 00:10:36.001 But speaking of fellow Australians, this is my episode today. 00:10:36.001 --> 00:10:45.811 I did the research today and we kind of have like a two for one this episode and it is Australian based. 00:10:45.878 --> 00:10:51.182 I thought it's about time I do a story from my home country, Australia. 00:10:51.250 --> 00:11:15.073 So I was looking into the BBC Microcomputer Literacy Project after we did the Doomsday episode and I still want to do an episode about the BBC Literacy Project, but I, as I was researching, I started to find other stories of government led educational computer projects from around the world, from around that time, like the early eighties. 00:11:15.173 --> 00:11:18.476 So I'm going to do a little series of them. 00:11:18.476 --> 00:11:43.601 And rather than delving into the like, big baddie, BBC literacy project, I thought Australia let's let's yeah, now I say this is a two for one because what I found was the story of the birth and death of a home grown microcomputer in Australia, but also a government initiative to develop a school specific education computer. 00:11:43.702 --> 00:11:45.804 And this never came to pass. 00:11:45.804 --> 00:11:47.972 It only reached the development stage. 00:11:47.972 --> 00:12:17.870 But much like what we saw in earlier episodes, particularly the Japanese Captain Video Tech's network episode where the government had been creating these research groups and publishing papers with this overall goal of infirmities Infirmities very much to informatization, I think the country that the development itself and the drive to understand what computers in schools would mean for the future at that time. 00:12:17.970 --> 00:12:22.173 It's really interesting, especially in the light of today. 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:45.530 Yeah, I'm I'm surprised we hadn't covered literacy projects more, especially since we've covered so many government tech initiatives, like you said, and and we specifically looked at that like process between economic financialization coming out of like this industrialization period, you know, early seventies and eighties. 00:12:45.630 --> 00:13:12.191 And there was always like an upper hand from the government to transform and in format to size information for matters that the population at that time and and part of that will require computer literacy for adults but also children who will obviously grow to work in that very economy that was being established. 00:13:12.191 --> 00:13:16.095 So, yeah, I'm excited to dig into this more. 00:13:16.095 --> 00:13:29.642 I'm going to latch on to some of the edgy, edgy computer episodes and get like my my next episode will be also about a children's educational computer project. 00:13:29.642 --> 00:13:33.278 So yeah, really looking forward to hearing about this. 00:13:33.412 --> 00:13:35.280 Yeah, I'm excited about the next episode. 00:13:35.280 --> 00:13:36.948 We've been talking about that one for a while. 00:13:36.948 --> 00:14:11.683 Um, but yeah, I think that was this like moment in time in this like early eighties, late seventies, early eighties where there was space for governments to delve into this area and to start like forming something of like a future plan and then eventually like mid to late eighties after the 85 crash, it, it really shifted to being more about these like larger corporations. 00:14:11.783 --> 00:14:32.471 But there was this yeah, there's kind of like ten year period where, where it felt like it was I guess it was we weren't sure who was going to control what computers looked like for us in the future, and the governments were like us and making these plans and it didn't really work out that way even. 00:14:32.471 --> 00:14:33.471 Yeah. 00:14:33.471 --> 00:14:35.975 So let's begin with that. 00:14:35.975 --> 00:14:43.115 With this computer that was the hopeful computer, the dream of a computer in Australia. 00:14:43.182 --> 00:14:53.826 And then part two will look at an Australian computer called the Micro B, and I will say that a lot of the information in this first section comes from research. 00:14:53.826 --> 00:15:06.071 I called Arthur Tuttle and he wrote specifically to papers The Australian educational Computer that never was, and a history of early Australian design computers. 00:15:06.171 --> 00:15:14.013 So we've been doing a lot of episodes focusing on this early computer era, late seventies, early eighties. 00:15:14.078 --> 00:15:28.826 And I think some of the things that we've learned the key to remember here is firstly that division between computer markets, the business computer market and the home computer market, and that these were seen as quite separate during this time. 00:15:28.894 --> 00:15:36.969 The business market, which particularly IBM was very focused on, had a higher price point and a lot of software development. 00:15:37.035 --> 00:15:45.811 And this software was often marketed as replacing preexisting mechanisms within the office and often that was done manually by my secretaries. 00:15:45.811 --> 00:15:49.782 So word processing, data entry, that sort of thing. 00:15:49.881 --> 00:16:10.101 On the other hand, there were a lot of smaller players coming into the home computer market and like we saw in the Calico Adam episode, many of these were actually video game companies and it took a much longer time for the industry to work out where the computer fit within the household and who it was for. 00:16:10.201 --> 00:16:13.404 We see it in in so much advertising from this era. 00:16:13.471 --> 00:16:16.875 Like was it for the father to have in his man cave and play games? 00:16:16.875 --> 00:16:24.450 Was it for the kids, usually the son to do homework or for the mother to keep recipes and make menus? 00:16:24.515 --> 00:16:34.525 There wasn't really much software being made specifically for home computers, so it was quite a different market. 00:16:34.592 --> 00:16:39.264 Now, sitting somewhere in between these two was the education computer market. 00:16:39.264 --> 00:16:47.272 So computers that would go into schools, particularly in primary school in Australia, that's prep to grade six. 00:16:47.272 --> 00:16:51.543 I don't know what that is in other countries. 00:16:51.610 --> 00:16:53.912 Grade six, what, what H what? 00:16:53.912 --> 00:17:00.119 I think that's like age five through 12. Yeah. 00:17:00.119 --> 00:17:01.919 That's like elementary. 00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:03.788 Elementary school. Yeah. 00:17:03.788 --> 00:17:20.138 So in primary schools, these computers were coming mostly from the home computer market because they were cheaper and, and easier to use, but they also had the same issues where it wasn't quite laid out yet, what sort of software was needed or how they would be used. 00:17:20.204 --> 00:17:20.571 Yeah. 00:17:20.571 --> 00:17:28.814 And I guess they also they probably lacked funding the most out of all of three markets. 00:17:28.814 --> 00:17:34.653 Education obviously is just like lacks funding compared to business market. 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:35.119 Yeah. 00:17:35.119 --> 00:18:07.152 And I think as we'll see later, that the funding can be kind of volatile because it's it's often coming from the government and government governments change and they have different priorities at different points in the elect electoral cycle and things. So, so early on computers are mostly used in schools to learn computer programing and to play games, and there were specific educational games around and later that would turn into the edutainment computer game industry. 00:18:07.385 --> 00:18:15.760 And I would say led by my favorite Carmen Sandiego, I think you go, Yes, I'm sure listeners have heard me talk of her before. 00:18:15.760 --> 00:18:23.035 I have a pro Carmen San Diego specific project that I, I can I finished but might be coming back soon. 00:18:23.035 --> 00:18:25.304 So I love her. 00:18:25.304 --> 00:18:31.643 I also love Carmen San Diego through through you edutainment. 00:18:31.643 --> 00:18:54.866 What it it's it's word yeah I think that was specifically in that era like nineties era broadband the company that may come in San Diego did a lot of these games. Yeah often computers in schools in these early days were championed by specific teachers with the niche interest of computing. 00:18:54.866 --> 00:19:06.244 Often this was picked up during that university study because that's where most computers were being used in the early days, and it wasn't really part of the official school curriculum. 00:19:06.244 --> 00:19:11.316 It was just these teachers being like, Hey, I think this is cool and important. 00:19:11.383 --> 00:19:19.924 The other thing was that there were a lot of a lot of companies pushing microcomputers to schools, and this made it very confusing. 00:19:19.924 --> 00:19:36.607 There were so many different models and software packages that even if the government wanted to, it was exceedingly hard to integrate computing into the school curriculum and had to provide hardware and software support to these usually incompatible microcomputers. 00:19:36.674 --> 00:19:47.653 Because of this, by around the mid eighties, many countries were looking at the idea of developing their own microcomputer specifically for use in their schools. 00:19:47.719 --> 00:19:52.257 Many of these were Commonwealth countries, so the UK and New Zealand. 00:19:52.324 --> 00:20:00.464 The story here in Australia and Canada and outside the Commonwealth, Sweden had a program as well. 00:20:00.566 --> 00:20:05.304 So Australia has the Federal Government and then eight main states and territories. 00:20:05.304 --> 00:20:12.277 Underneath that those states and territories controlled their own education plans and curriculum. 00:20:12.344 --> 00:20:30.261 At this point each state had their own preferred provider lists for hardware and software, which usually included Eikon, BBC Computers, Commodore Apple TOS or Micro B computers, which we'll talk about later in this episode, and also provided some sort of support. 00:20:30.261 --> 00:20:35.000 Center office sometimes states also work together. 00:20:35.032 --> 00:20:52.017 My favorite of these just because it's funny when the states of Tasmania, South Australia and Western Australia who had a computer education project together called Tozawa, so which are the codes of the states linked together. 00:20:52.017 --> 00:20:59.290 So ties to for Tasmania and then sharing the SSA for South Australia and WA for Western Australia. 00:20:59.290 --> 00:21:03.828 Tozawa So it's like a celebrity therapy. 00:21:03.862 --> 00:21:16.642 Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've, they've been shipped by ship so, so was like fanfiction and everything. 00:21:16.642 --> 00:21:32.124 But in 1983 the Australian Federal Government set up the National Advisory Committee on Computers in Schools and they would plan a national computer education program when completed. 00:21:32.124 --> 00:21:38.696 This would give those states advice on things like curriculum, hardware, software and support. 00:21:38.763 --> 00:22:04.522 But through this process, the National Advisory Committee also began developing a new computer specifically for Australian schools called the Australian Educational Computer, or the AEC, which to me AEC stands for Australian Electoral Commission because I love elections and I usually work the election and the AEC is an important acronym. 00:22:04.522 --> 00:22:07.326 Acronym, Yeah. 00:22:07.326 --> 00:22:22.340 So this would be great for students because they would have specific software for the Australian curriculum and it's good for the Australian business businesses and the electronics industry which would be tasked with creating all of this. 00:22:22.406 --> 00:22:36.721 See, this is a paragraph that I enjoyed from Atherton in the Australian Education Computer that never was, which lays out the cultural differences which made it important to develop Australian specific software. 00:22:36.755 --> 00:22:44.195 So there was already some being developed for preexisting computers, specifically the microwave. 00:22:44.261 --> 00:22:50.234 So the quote goes clearly good educational software was needed and would need to be developed. 00:22:50.335 --> 00:23:02.146 Although computers like the Apple two and Commodore had a significant amount of software that could be considered for use in schools, the available software often referenced American culture and terminology. 00:23:02.247 --> 00:23:14.092 For example, the Apple two simulation game Lemonade was based on making and selling lemonade from a street stall, although this had some merit in terms of teaching students about mathematics. 00:23:14.092 --> 00:23:19.897 And one aspect of doing business, lemonade stands for almost unknown in Australia. 00:23:19.964 --> 00:23:29.307 Also, Americans might root for a sporting team, but this word has quite another meaning in Australia, where we use the word barrack instead. 00:23:29.307 --> 00:23:31.777 I like that he doesn't say what that word makes. 00:23:31.777 --> 00:23:36.414 Yeah, it's a it's a it's a naughty word. 00:23:36.414 --> 00:23:42.653 Another slightly later example is the trash can on the Apple Macintosh in Australia. 00:23:42.653 --> 00:23:45.423 We put our waste in a rubbish bin. 00:23:45.423 --> 00:23:57.234 I really like this because I've been working on a, a project that looks at trash cans or rubbish bins and I started the project in Australia and I'm now continuing it in the U.S. 00:23:57.234 --> 00:24:01.772 and it's been a real like mind shift to have to change the terminology, it felt. 00:24:01.772 --> 00:24:05.844 So we had access to say, Yeah, trash, trash can. 00:24:05.911 --> 00:24:13.384 I think operating systems now convert like that language to where you're from, right? 00:24:13.384 --> 00:24:19.458 I mean, obviously you can have language, you can specify your language when you start up your computer. 00:24:19.458 --> 00:24:30.902 But but like when I go into my mind says trying minds has been to write to Americans, two Americans, one say, Canada, slash, maybe. 00:24:30.902 --> 00:24:33.872 I don't know. Can we find out? 00:24:33.872 --> 00:24:34.772 So yes, no. 00:24:34.772 --> 00:24:37.843 And the kind I never realized I was. 00:24:37.909 --> 00:24:44.682 I just realized, Oh, yeah, I'm just staring at it now. 00:24:44.682 --> 00:24:45.416 You know what? 00:24:45.416 --> 00:24:48.286 I saw an exhibition. 00:24:48.286 --> 00:24:50.555 I'm trying to remember what it was. 00:24:50.555 --> 00:24:53.791 I saw an exhibition last week. 00:24:53.991 --> 00:25:02.032 All it was was a projection of the trash, the apple trash can on the wall. 00:25:02.067 --> 00:25:03.134 It was really great. 00:25:03.134 --> 00:25:07.705 It was by seal floor. It's called trash. 00:25:07.771 --> 00:25:08.205 And it's. 00:25:08.205 --> 00:25:09.941 Yeah, it's just like the trash can. 00:25:09.941 --> 00:25:15.247 Quite large sort of should be called bin I know. 00:25:15.313 --> 00:25:29.193 Projected on the on the wall but like near the floor so so far for his practice addresses notions of the uncanny, the humorous and the absurd through deceptively simple means yet to deeply nuanced effects. 00:25:29.227 --> 00:25:31.829 So it's called trash, right? 00:25:31.829 --> 00:25:38.002 Trash is the silent projection of a still image of a trash bin adopted from the OSX operating system for Mac. 00:25:38.135 --> 00:25:42.240 So I'm guessing that I'm guessing it means that says trash. 00:25:42.374 --> 00:25:44.910 Wow. Yeah. Okay. 00:25:44.910 --> 00:25:48.846 Jimmy, that okay? 00:25:48.846 --> 00:25:51.615 I might as well. 00:25:51.615 --> 00:26:02.894 So so so they created and in 1985 another offshoot a working group called the education technical requirement working pot that Arthur Tackle was a part of. 00:26:02.894 --> 00:26:05.130 So that's why he knows so much. 00:26:05.130 --> 00:26:10.000 And they dreamed and planned and developed a new computer. 00:26:10.101 --> 00:26:18.542 One of the more interesting and I would say important points that that techno lays out is the desire for it to have multiple forms of use. 00:26:18.609 --> 00:26:33.625 And I think this is really where it shows what was being dreamed of for the future of of classrooms and education as we were just wanting to reckon with the possibilities of an integration of schools and computers. 00:26:33.692 --> 00:26:35.759 Yeah, that's really good. 00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:47.271 I when you were reciting that article, I was getting kind of worried and a bit frustrated by the possibility of them just scrapping the idea of the edu computer. 00:26:47.305 --> 00:26:53.044 I'm just going to use education for a portmanteau for everything now. 00:26:53.111 --> 00:26:53.444 Yeah. 00:26:53.444 --> 00:26:59.517 And that just, just because of a few kind of semantic problems that they would just scrap it. 00:26:59.517 --> 00:27:09.861 But I'm glad that they instead tried to just see it as like a disadvantage rather than a problem and kind of build something on top of that or something that would replace the original machine. 00:27:09.861 --> 00:27:14.732 So they didn't just kind of, yeah, scrap the whole concept because it was too American. 00:27:14.732 --> 00:27:16.734 I think that's that's really good. 00:27:16.734 --> 00:27:55.173 But the other thing I was going to say is that I also really like this idea of engineering specifically like engineering specific objects for learning, because I'm sure that the engineers for Arthur Capital and his team had to figure out ways of building these things and finding issues with the original and kind of like reverse engineering, the learning about the learning processes in schools and then out of that kind of make something to support the development of learning even further. 00:27:55.240 --> 00:28:05.750 So it's kind of like you're learning yourself for the sake of improving learning and a cycle that's just really quite profound. 00:28:05.750 --> 00:28:09.421 And it must be very fulfilling to to be able to do that. 00:28:09.421 --> 00:28:20.731 I think it's very cool and I think that the the process is this sort of understanding of the specifics of Australian learning in Australian schools. 00:28:20.731 --> 00:28:30.174 And you know, they had had computers in schools for quite a while by this point, but they, you know, the McRobbie was Australian specific. 00:28:30.174 --> 00:28:41.618 But if we're looking at like the Apple two and things, you know, they could see with, with like lemonade the trashcan thing, what, what wasn't working. 00:28:41.618 --> 00:28:55.066 I think like they need they probably needed to have experienced something that wasn't quite right for them before they could develop something that was very specific for them. 00:28:55.099 --> 00:28:59.237 Yeah, Yeah. I mean yeah. 00:28:59.336 --> 00:29:08.278 So the three uses outlined by the report were personal, what they called a portable battery powered computer. 00:29:08.278 --> 00:29:10.147 Basically a laptop. 00:29:10.147 --> 00:29:18.923 But because of the cost of LCD screens, they also considered a transportable version, which in my head a portable versus transportable just tells. 00:29:18.990 --> 00:29:28.665 I took me a while to work out what the difference is, but I think that the transportable version is just a computer that would connect to a regular CRT screen right? 00:29:28.665 --> 00:29:34.271 When you went into like an office or a classroom and the the portable has the screen within it. 00:29:34.372 --> 00:29:36.374 Yeah, but that's the main thing that they thought of. 00:29:36.374 --> 00:29:36.840 Yeah. 00:29:36.840 --> 00:29:41.045 Remote learning already by Kenya. 00:29:41.112 --> 00:29:44.048 If only they knew. 00:29:44.048 --> 00:29:48.486 If only they knew what 2021 would bring. 00:29:48.553 --> 00:29:55.393 And then the second is classroom, which is the version of the computer with the CRT screen that would be in the classroom for everyone to use. 00:29:55.492 --> 00:29:57.295 And then third was school wide. 00:29:57.295 --> 00:30:04.368 This would be a network which could share data, could be sectioned off into different classroom groups and would include printers. 00:30:04.368 --> 00:30:17.080 So basically sort of what a school would have would have now, like a network of computers with printers and to me this is exciting, but it also like feels like the same on one. 00:30:17.214 --> 00:30:27.925 On the one hand, dreams and goals and the other rhetoric which we've been hearing about computers in schools ever since I was thinking about when I was entering high school. 00:30:27.925 --> 00:30:31.061 So year seven, we had we had laptops, we had to have laptops. 00:30:31.061 --> 00:30:37.000 I remember that it was like a big expense, but it was laptops with with floppy drives. 00:30:37.067 --> 00:30:42.240 So I remember sharing around DOS games on, on floppy disks. 00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:48.645 Like I can just manage to queue like Well I could dangerous Millie with her flash. 00:30:48.645 --> 00:30:53.218 Yeah. Yeah it's exact. Yeah. 00:30:53.218 --> 00:31:12.135 And you know we would save things to floppy and, and stuff but yeah man I love dangerous Dave That was my job that I, Yeah, I think like by the time I was leaving school so six years later they'd started putting in these smart whiteboards. 00:31:12.135 --> 00:31:14.137 I remember the hype around it. 00:31:14.137 --> 00:31:19.711 They were really expensive that this was going to change the way students learn, blah, blah, blah. 00:31:19.777 --> 00:31:26.617 It, it really I think it just amounted to being able to print what you drew on the board and be like project and save it or something. 00:31:26.617 --> 00:31:27.451 I don't know. 00:31:27.451 --> 00:31:33.090 People didn't really use them in the smart capacity and I feel like they just broke all the time. 00:31:33.090 --> 00:31:35.993 And to be honest, they scared me. 00:31:35.993 --> 00:31:46.203 Yeah, I mean, they're still around like and the latency on those things was so bad and still is not great. 00:31:46.270 --> 00:31:57.981 But yeah, I mean, I'm, I, I work in online education and a lot of technologically advanced universities now have these, like smart boards that are connected to remote learning. 00:31:57.981 --> 00:32:10.295 So like you have a camera attached to your whiteboard that records the teacher in the classroom and it feeds in live whiteboard activity to your connected devices around the world. 00:32:10.361 --> 00:32:21.204 So like, for example, if you tap into teams, then you can see what is being drawn live on the whiteboard, like on your screen, on your computer, I guess physical or a physical whiteboard in a room. 00:32:21.204 --> 00:32:21.538 Yeah. 00:32:21.538 --> 00:32:30.048 So the smart whiteboards are connected to teams so that like any other musical whiteboard in the room, someone's like manually drawing on. 00:32:30.048 --> 00:32:33.317 And then a version of that goes into teams on the computer. 00:32:33.317 --> 00:32:53.171 Yeah, yeah, like stuff like that. But it's just the latency is bad and it's not really there's just constant alterations around education and tech and some of the stuff that comes out is quite faddish when really just the best way to teach and learn is in person. 00:32:53.171 --> 00:33:02.579 And I mean, of course I'm, I'm all for trying to make engagement better because learning is great and, and it's good for accessibility as well. 00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:03.714 Yeah. Yeah. 00:33:03.714 --> 00:33:13.691 Of course from the fact that like anyone around the world can get a degree from X, Y and Z, but yeah, I mean, I think just like what's great about screens is anonymity. 00:33:13.691 --> 00:33:24.201 And when there's projects that try and go against that, it's just, it just seems weird to me, like, why are we trade? 00:33:24.201 --> 00:33:29.039 Why are we trying to take that away from its inherent appeal? 00:33:29.106 --> 00:33:40.284 Because I think there's still ways of learning as like an explorer as like a, you know, anonymous being on the Internet and like lurking and stuff like that. 00:33:40.284 --> 00:33:44.821 Like why does it have to be so hyper connected? 00:33:44.821 --> 00:33:51.429 And we're being asked to, like, open our video cameras when we go on meetings all the time. 00:33:51.429 --> 00:33:54.164 Like, why is that such a thing? 00:33:54.164 --> 00:33:59.636 I mean, I guess we all know why, but it's just a bit weird to me. 00:33:59.703 --> 00:34:17.387 It's also the thing that came up here for me is that you said it's very faddish and it must be hard, I guess, with schools or corporations or big businesses or whatever to they have to commit to something. 00:34:17.487 --> 00:34:18.889 Yeah. To a for technology. 00:34:18.889 --> 00:34:23.427 And they always want to be ahead, particularly schools want to be like ahead of the curve a little bit. Yeah. 00:34:23.427 --> 00:34:27.764 So they have to kind of hedge their bets on like what are they going to add? 00:34:27.965 --> 00:34:34.505 Are they going to buy like 200 smart wires? 00:34:34.572 --> 00:34:37.541 Right. And there's like no one, obviously. 00:34:37.541 --> 00:34:38.041 Yeah. 00:34:38.041 --> 00:34:41.846 And there's no one that's like been hired to to do that research. 00:34:41.846 --> 00:34:52.255 Like, you basically just get principals and then teachers and then the teachers will probably come to the principal and be like, Hey, like we might need this type of thing in our lab. 00:34:52.255 --> 00:35:00.264 That would be good, but you don't really have anyone there That's like trying to optimize learning in general. 00:35:00.331 --> 00:35:06.269 Yeah, I mean, I guess that's what like she's like government agencies, right? 00:35:06.269 --> 00:35:10.942 Tasked with working the best thing, But that's such a slow process. 00:35:10.942 --> 00:35:12.610 Yeah. Yeah. So. 00:35:12.610 --> 00:35:13.110 Oh, my God. 00:35:13.110 --> 00:35:18.115 Just imagine the bureaucracy involved in that. 00:35:18.181 --> 00:35:20.050 So speaking of. 00:35:20.050 --> 00:35:50.447 Yeah, I'm like, I'm like some of the other countries we mentioned earlier, this project did die in the development stage at the National Computer Education Project, had had three years of funding, but then it just wasn't renewed, not because of any big thing or scandal, but probably just because of like budget cuts or electoral priorities of the government. And I think it could have been something quite exciting that sort of push to have a personal portable version particularly is is very interesting. 00:35:50.547 --> 00:35:55.686 But as Tatton points out, this this report was being finalized in 1985. 00:35:55.686 --> 00:36:03.360 And as we know from the Calico Adam episode that coincides with the home computer crash, a slump of of 1985. 00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:16.072 And, you know, it was in this moment that that there was a consolidation of the market, which led to a lot of the smaller companies closing and pushed through the later dominance of Apple in the PC. 00:36:16.139 --> 00:36:27.184 So even if the AEC had gone into production, it would have already by that point been technologically surpassed and probably just demolished by these big players. 00:36:27.251 --> 00:36:34.492 And it feels like that space to create a national government led computer program had sort of passed by by that point. 00:36:34.492 --> 00:36:39.764 And there's this project was just really just came a little bit too late in the game. 00:36:39.864 --> 00:36:41.231 Yeah. 00:36:41.298 --> 00:36:54.612 So moving into part two, a a computer that also got caught up in this industry consolidation was the micro bee, which was known as Australia's own computer. 00:36:54.679 --> 00:37:04.521 This microcomputer was made and designed in Australia and became a major player in the education market in Australian schools and internationally as well. 00:37:04.621 --> 00:37:18.802 Go Australia. Woo! The micro bee began its life in 1982 as a kit computer designed by Owen Hill and Matthew Starr from a company called Applied Technology. 00:37:18.902 --> 00:37:41.492 So before this, applied technology had been mostly, I think, like importing and selling computer and tech parts, But because they had all of these these parts, these bits, it seemed like a natural progression to move into kit computers, which is where you can have a bag of bits and instructions and you learn to make a computer yourself. 00:37:41.492 --> 00:37:44.427 In my head, it's like a Lego set. 00:37:44.427 --> 00:37:45.061 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:37:45.061 --> 00:37:48.666 I was about to say the same thing, but I will confess. 00:37:48.666 --> 00:37:55.338 Yeah, I used to teach like coding little workshops for like six year olds and me. 00:37:55.472 --> 00:38:01.378 And one of the best tasks was them trying to build a little robot. 00:38:01.579 --> 00:38:04.315 And it came as like a like it was like a Lego initiative. 00:38:04.315 --> 00:38:06.117 So I forgot what the name was. 00:38:06.117 --> 00:38:14.659 But basically you build your own like Lego board and then there's like a little sensor in there and a battery, and then you can code what that robot does. 00:38:14.659 --> 00:38:19.230 So it can kind of like it can like drive itself to a certain point. 00:38:19.230 --> 00:38:21.331 And then after like 6 seconds it can move, right? 00:38:21.331 --> 00:38:25.001 But you have to code all of those steps in this like special piece of software. 00:38:25.168 --> 00:38:29.940 And it's very easy to use and it's really fun and it's got like, I forgot what it was. 00:38:29.940 --> 00:38:31.141 It was like a character. 00:38:31.141 --> 00:38:33.510 It was like almost like a little Wall-E guy. 00:38:33.510 --> 00:38:36.146 Yeah. 00:38:33.510 --> 00:38:36.146 So that reminds me of that a little bit. 00:38:36.146 --> 00:38:37.148 I was just invited. 00:38:37.148 --> 00:38:44.355 I did Lego Robotics in high school, which was probably a like an earlier version of what this is. 00:38:44.355 --> 00:38:52.262 And we yeah, we learned to like we made robots and then let to program them in like specific Lego programing. 00:38:52.329 --> 00:38:59.769 And then we entered, we had little groups and we entered a Lego robotics competition and they had different sections. 00:38:59.869 --> 00:39:06.010 I think there were three, and I only remember one of them was like you playing soccer or something. 00:39:06.077 --> 00:39:07.077 That one was. 00:39:07.077 --> 00:39:11.548 Was your program the Robot to dance to a song? 00:39:11.614 --> 00:39:17.855 And me and my friends, we we made a robot that danced to Achy Breaky Heart. 00:39:17.922 --> 00:39:20.824 You know, that's like, Oh, my. 00:39:20.824 --> 00:39:21.257 Oh, right. 00:39:21.257 --> 00:39:22.525 Yeah. 00:39:22.525 --> 00:39:27.465 Of Pew just did a lot of like, oh 510. 00:39:27.530 --> 00:39:29.432 Oh, I love it. 00:39:29.432 --> 00:39:29.900 I love that. 00:39:29.900 --> 00:39:34.038 I feel like I would have been very into Joshua. 00:39:34.137 --> 00:39:38.442 Researching this made me, made me wish that quite nostalgic. 00:39:38.442 --> 00:39:45.215 I had gotten into computers, think I was a little too late, I was too late for it, but too old for the party. 00:39:45.282 --> 00:39:47.985 I was too young to young. 00:39:47.985 --> 00:39:51.489 Yeah, right to too young. 00:39:51.489 --> 00:39:54.257 To bon bon to bon to late. 00:39:54.257 --> 00:39:55.259 Yeah. 00:39:55.259 --> 00:40:05.168 But what I loved about the development of the micro bee was that they gave it a code name when they were working out what it would be, and the codename was Project Granny Smith. 00:40:05.235 --> 00:40:08.472 And the Granny Smith is an Australian apple. 00:40:08.572 --> 00:40:09.072 Oh, really? 00:40:09.072 --> 00:40:10.807 I didn't know it was Australian. 00:40:09.072 --> 00:40:10.807 I love it. 00:40:10.807 --> 00:40:15.846 Gregg Yeah, it was created in this, but it's like an Australian apple. 00:40:15.913 --> 00:40:19.449 I think that's cute and smart. 00:40:19.550 --> 00:40:31.961 This computer, which ended up being named the Micro Bee, was the first commercial personal computer manufactured and designed in Australia, was made in Gosford, New South Wales. 00:40:32.028 --> 00:40:36.132 They sold for $399. 00:40:36.132 --> 00:40:43.740 I did some inflation math and I think that's around 1,000 USD today. 00:40:43.974 --> 00:40:47.577 Okay, they should teach inflation maths at school. 00:40:47.577 --> 00:40:49.679 It should be part of the curriculum. 00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:59.222 Yeah, I did say a tick tock, but so in the pandemic I was living with with some friends and we used to watch a lot of old films. 00:40:59.222 --> 00:41:05.295 And one of my friends Mandy was very into looking up the inflation. 00:41:05.396 --> 00:41:16.407 I found it Tick Tock the other day that was referencing this, and I said it to her and then she reminded me that $7 in the thirties was is like $150 today or something. 00:41:16.574 --> 00:41:18.074 Yeah. 00:41:18.074 --> 00:41:21.010 Also I just realized I said math instead of maths, right. 00:41:21.010 --> 00:41:22.313 Oh yeah. 00:41:22.313 --> 00:41:28.184 So it's an American, an inflation maths America. 00:41:28.284 --> 00:41:35.826 I did just add the American keyboard to my forehead because I was sick of having to vote, which was so sad. 00:41:36.059 --> 00:41:47.838 I said, Yeah, the Minister of. So they launched the kits along with a 32 page lift out in your computer magazine in February 1982. 00:41:47.938 --> 00:41:52.543 I think it was because because one of them was like working for this magazine or something. 00:41:52.643 --> 00:41:58.849 They they managed to get the space, the pages in the magazine before they even had a name for the computer. 00:41:58.849 --> 00:42:03.454 And they ended up on B and then Micro because they were like, We can't copy. 00:42:03.521 --> 00:42:10.793 And with the idea that the software would be called Honey and the eventual network would be the Hive, it was like this whole thing. 00:42:10.860 --> 00:42:22.472 I found a quote in an article as we visited school classrooms and found students didn't like calling computers z x 88 and they personalized apples. 00:42:22.472 --> 00:42:25.376 One was called Fred, Mr. Hill says. 00:42:25.376 --> 00:42:28.211 We decided it should be friendly and non-threatening. 00:42:28.211 --> 00:42:32.016 So my microwave grew to be so cute. 00:42:32.081 --> 00:42:39.222 I also saw a comment on a YouTube video that was saying that like the Micro Bee had an orange and black screen and apples had green and black screen. 00:42:39.222 --> 00:42:44.128 I said, Oh, because like orange and black was like the B a B, I guess. Yes. 00:42:44.161 --> 00:42:44.460 Color. 00:42:44.460 --> 00:42:52.536 Yeah, I actually I checked out the logo and it's interesting because they use the same kind of like Apple old school, like Apple font. 00:42:52.603 --> 00:43:05.615 You know the Sarah thing though like stretched out vertically, long serif, it's like slightly different, It's a little bit bolder, but you can definitely see that they were like sort of in competition with them. 00:43:05.615 --> 00:43:07.717 Maybe just looking at her. 00:43:07.717 --> 00:43:10.554 Yeah, the font. Yeah. 00:43:10.554 --> 00:43:15.159 So, so Own Hill has said there was an interview with him, so I'll reference this a little bit. 00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:26.570 He said that they thought that they would take a year to sell a thousand kits, but they ended up selling them all within two months and by the end of the year they were doing more than a thousand a month. Wow. 00:43:26.570 --> 00:43:34.210 By April, they had been approached by the New South Wales Department of Education as part of the New South Wales Schools computer contract. 00:43:34.277 --> 00:43:44.588 The Government going to buy two and a half thousand microbeads to go into schools, but they would need them to be pre-built, not the kit form that it was currently in. 00:43:44.655 --> 00:43:55.132 So applied technology began developing a prebuilt model with, it seems, also some input from the government of what would be required by them. 00:43:55.231 --> 00:44:00.704 The fully assembled Micro B personal computer was released in July 1982. 00:44:00.704 --> 00:44:03.039 Is this like month just months apart? 00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:03.606 Each of these? 00:44:03.606 --> 00:44:06.010 Yeah, which is crazy to me. Yeah. 00:44:06.010 --> 00:44:16.186 And this now had an injection molded plastic case and the logo for the micro is of large graphic B so it was also kind of cute, which was good for schools. 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:17.320 It's got to be cute. 00:44:17.320 --> 00:44:20.523 Got to be cute to sell. It's got to be cute. 00:44:20.590 --> 00:44:28.898 The following year, they were also on their preferred provider list for Western Australia and Queensland and later South Australia and Victoria. 00:44:28.965 --> 00:44:36.974 In 1983 they released color and disk based versions and in 1985 they released a premium model and fun. 00:44:37.141 --> 00:44:47.851 This included a video text terminal adapter which meant that you could access the new via tell video text network from telecom, and that could also be used to connect all the schools. 00:44:47.851 --> 00:44:59.163 And in that interview, O'Neil said it was like email and I can't quite tell if he's referring to the video text network or if it's like a something else. 00:44:59.163 --> 00:45:26.123 But yeah, yeah, that's so interesting that like so while universities at the time were connected via like PBS schools would have been connected via video text, things like the, the, the school system, particularly this primary school market was always like lagging behind via what was actually happening because it's because it would because universities is where computers are tech. 00:45:26.289 --> 00:45:27.958 So yeah, yeah. 00:45:27.958 --> 00:45:31.327 Used at first yeah. 00:45:31.394 --> 00:45:33.429 Original machines were ROM based. 00:45:33.429 --> 00:45:35.699 They didn't have disk drives attached. 00:45:35.699 --> 00:45:44.240 They had cassette based program loading, which we, we talked about a little bit in the Catholic ah Atom episode I think. 00:45:44.340 --> 00:45:50.414 And it later also in the doomsday I think No, no, no. 00:45:50.447 --> 00:45:52.750 Yeah that was always good. 00:45:52.750 --> 00:45:56.219 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:45:56.286 --> 00:46:01.224 Later you could, you could sort of upgrade your computer, your microwave very easily. 00:46:01.224 --> 00:46:08.297 You could sort of like switch in and out things so later you could upgrade to a disk based machine that was capable of CPM. 00:46:08.398 --> 00:46:25.014 They had a originally they had a five, five, five, 12 by 256 pixel resolution, which was better than other ideas at the time, like Tandy, which owned RadioShack in the States and was becoming bigger, they kind of saw them as competition. 00:46:25.215 --> 00:46:26.483 Yeah, and it was better. 00:46:26.483 --> 00:46:33.157 That resolution is better than the Apple two, which I think was 140 by 192. 00:46:33.222 --> 00:46:35.192 Yeah, So that's really good. 00:46:35.192 --> 00:46:36.827 Yeah. 00:46:36.827 --> 00:46:47.838 A big draw was that it had battery backed memory standard RAM backed up by a battery which meant that if the power suddenly went off or the computer crashed, you didn't lose all your work. 00:46:47.938 --> 00:46:54.244 That dynamic Ram was what I saw the companies used and that copy battery backed up though it is cheaper. 00:46:54.311 --> 00:47:06.123 So so the Apple two and micro B were the main computers in schools in Australia, but micro B was a cheaper alternative and an Australian machine. 00:47:06.190 --> 00:47:10.427 Schools could buy five microbeads for the cost of one apple. 00:47:10.527 --> 00:47:13.630 No, what a bargain. 00:47:13.730 --> 00:47:18.501 And they just because mostly it was produced in the country do you think? 00:47:18.501 --> 00:47:20.036 Yeah, I think so, yeah. 00:47:20.036 --> 00:47:23.039 And it was just it's not a big brand. 00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:25.108 I mean, everyone knows Apple's a scam. 00:47:25.108 --> 00:47:25.742 Yeah. 00:47:25.742 --> 00:47:41.757 Overpriced Microbrew also emphasized that it was two kids per computer which encouraged peer learning so schools needed less and they were also producing Australian content relevant to the curriculum. 00:47:41.824 --> 00:48:03.947 That thing about PLM with multiple kids per computer reminds me of common San Diego stuff where so much of the part of the it's like a central part of the experience of the game was about playing in a group around one computer because it was a school of software to begin with. 00:48:04.047 --> 00:48:13.322 And so I guess conversations around conservation also considering that like social experience of using a computer. 00:48:13.389 --> 00:48:14.490 Yeah. 00:48:14.490 --> 00:48:44.922 So Owen Hill says that that this was a major factor in standing out against Apple, the producing Australian content micro be understood the cultural nuances of their markets better than Apple later micro B we get into the Swedish school market they won the contract over Apple specifically with the drawcard of they were producing culturally appropriate keyboards and this helped when they followed Apple into the Russian market too. 00:48:44.922 --> 00:48:54.331 Apple just had the normal quality keyboard, but Mike Kirby created a language specific keyboard for Russian and that helped them gain more market percentage. 00:48:54.331 --> 00:49:05.608 And in Russia while so my Kirby was exporting to Sweden and Russia just because they had some customs keyboards. Wow. 00:49:05.675 --> 00:49:11.347 And I think it's interesting, this idea of computers really tied to local markets. 00:49:11.414 --> 00:49:21.425 Yeah, I we don't really see that so much anymore other than some language changes on the screen and I guess keyboard differences. 00:49:21.425 --> 00:49:24.161 But this one, I don't know. 00:49:24.161 --> 00:49:39.242 It just it feels well, it's about the keyboard, but it's also like it it seemed like it wanted to kind of preserve like part of Australian culture and like the curriculum and the different, like weird words that were being used, you know? 00:49:39.242 --> 00:49:43.246 So it was like a part of the software as well as much as it was part of the hardware. 00:49:43.246 --> 00:49:48.851 Like, you know, it's about understanding the society that the kids are going into. 00:49:48.985 --> 00:49:49.485 Yeah, right. 00:49:49.485 --> 00:49:58.795 And the economic language was like, yeah, but to be like, well, what does this how does this computer sit within society? 00:49:58.795 --> 00:49:59.896 How is it used? 00:49:59.896 --> 00:50:11.340 There was an article called Australian Computers and Swedish Schools, which I don't know what it's from, but it was shown as an image in a video about my Kirby. 00:50:11.407 --> 00:50:27.824 So I, I don't know if it's from the eighties, but it, the microbe won the contract in the face of stiff competition such as the Scandinavian produce Luxo and the internationally known and accepted BBC Apple and Apricot Computer Systems. 00:50:27.990 --> 00:50:30.460 Wait, I'm just going to take a aside. 00:50:30.460 --> 00:50:33.597 I had not heard of an apricot mini there. 00:50:33.597 --> 00:50:36.032 I looked it up. It's a British computer. 00:50:36.032 --> 00:50:37.034 They went out of business. 00:50:37.034 --> 00:50:49.012 But what I found online was a website that's a pitch somebody is pitching to revive the OR to take that brand name and start a started again. 00:50:49.112 --> 00:50:53.416 I would want that if it like yeah let's look into that. 00:50:53.516 --> 00:51:00.791 So the quote continues as one might imagine, this achievement in an international marketplace is of considerable proportions. 00:51:00.856 --> 00:51:09.298 Perhaps local misconceptions that Australian high technology is of dubious quality and quantity may be refuted in the light of such breakthroughs. 00:51:09.331 --> 00:51:12.601 Just like third. 00:51:12.668 --> 00:51:21.411 But despite that, Owen Hill said that there was actually a real sense of ownership, Australian ownership around the micro bee. 00:51:21.510 --> 00:51:36.226 I guess because they were Australian made, but also because they were largely the handmade in kit form in the early nineties, the people had like a physical connection with it and then also use during early childhood with culturally specific software. 00:51:36.226 --> 00:51:39.228 So it was very relatable. 00:51:39.228 --> 00:51:55.711 And also I think like my I have a memory of like the nineties that like buying Australian made there was an Australian made campaign that was like a special sticker that we had like a logo with a kangaroo on it. 00:51:55.778 --> 00:52:00.349 So Australian made and it was that there were ads on the TV like buy these Australian made things. 00:52:00.349 --> 00:52:03.320 So you know there was this of incentive. 00:52:03.320 --> 00:52:21.737 Yeah yeah. And the market so micro be had this niche market with primary schools though they were also in secondary schools and offices and some other markets like medical and medical technology company used it to make blood analysis machines like okay there it was. 00:52:21.737 --> 00:52:35.485 But you know IVF was moving into the secondary school market with business machines and IBM clones sort of were becoming a thing. 00:52:35.619 --> 00:52:40.157 Unfortunately, you know, due to having so much demand in the moment. 00:52:40.157 --> 00:52:49.266 Micro Bee and Applied Technology weren't able to focus on diversifying or establishing new business models that would allow them to grow from the small factory in Gosford. 00:52:49.465 --> 00:52:52.635 They were just trying to fulfill the orders that were coming in. 00:52:52.735 --> 00:53:12.422 Yeah, when the IBM clones flooded the market later in the eighties, Applied Technology looked at importing Taiwanese IBM clones under the micro bee name and they tried to develop a new computer called the Matilda, which is another very Australian name, which would be both micro Bee and IBM compatible. 00:53:12.422 --> 00:53:15.858 But only 200 went into production before. 00:53:15.858 --> 00:53:26.135 The company folded and it finally closed and in 1992 they had sold more than 70,000 microbeads to over 3000 Australian schools. 00:53:26.202 --> 00:53:31.708 It was this very specific generation of school kids that that experience this. 00:53:31.775 --> 00:53:34.043 But that's still a lot. 00:53:34.043 --> 00:53:35.311 Yeah, yeah. 00:53:35.311 --> 00:53:37.581 And I wonder how that changed sort of. 00:53:37.581 --> 00:53:53.063 There was that generation's perception of computers and and identity and sure the possibilities of like a career in tech or things like that, you know, because you've built it yourself or the way everything. 00:53:53.063 --> 00:53:54.931 Yeah yeah. 00:53:54.931 --> 00:53:59.568 Generations after that we're all just using apple trees and PCs. 00:53:59.668 --> 00:54:05.942 The company was sort of relaunched in 2012 by a former employee. 00:54:06.009 --> 00:54:25.461 I think they had like 120 limited edition kit computers, which man, I wish I could have gotten one of them, but they did that because I think he had found a storage storage locker or something and they had 120 cases of the I think the premium plus model in storage. 00:54:25.461 --> 00:54:43.880 And so they they like supplied like all the other parts new and then the vintage case and it looked like I watched some interviews look like maybe they have some other cases and I think maybe from the Matilda or from the sort of later models that never went into production and that they're thinking of doing it again. 00:54:43.980 --> 00:54:44.581 But Yeah. 00:54:44.581 --> 00:54:48.550 So it's running again, but it's not. 00:54:48.617 --> 00:54:50.019 Yeah, it's not the same. 00:54:50.019 --> 00:54:56.025 But yeah, because it would still be on like kind of old hardware. 00:54:56.126 --> 00:54:58.027 Yeah. Right. Like it. Yeah. 00:54:58.027 --> 00:55:01.831 I don't know if that's like the most attractive to kids that are used I think. 00:55:01.831 --> 00:55:05.768 And it's not for kids, it's for, it's for us. 00:55:05.835 --> 00:55:08.271 Oh, right, right. 00:55:08.271 --> 00:55:08.672 Yeah. 00:55:08.672 --> 00:55:11.641 The nerves. 00:55:11.641 --> 00:55:13.043 Yeah. 00:55:13.043 --> 00:55:14.710 No, that's cool. But, um. 00:55:14.710 --> 00:55:22.686 Yeah, it's really interesting just thinking about that process from, like, what companies kind of took over. 00:55:22.686 --> 00:55:38.335 It's, it's interesting that how the models made for business and finance, like IBM, eventually diversified and like, took over all of the markets in like, say, education and leisure or reproductive labor like we said earlier. 00:55:38.335 --> 00:55:41.070 And yeah, I just, I wonder why that is. 00:55:41.070 --> 00:55:50.012 Like, is it just because they had more money and were able to adapt more or like it's it's it's very similar to the story. 00:55:50.179 --> 00:55:51.447 Sorry, go ahead. 00:55:51.447 --> 00:55:57.853 Oh, since I mean, I think a lot of it is just that 98 like mid eighties 1985 slump. 00:55:57.954 --> 00:55:59.222 That's true. 00:55:59.222 --> 00:55:59.389 Yeah. 00:55:59.389 --> 00:56:08.431 Before that there were just all of these little companies and it was this very new industry and everybody's so speculative and everyone's like trying something out. 00:56:08.431 --> 00:56:19.943 And then at a certain point it's like oversaturated the supply issues, like all that stuff happens and the smaller companies drop off and the bigger companies take over their market share. 00:56:20.043 --> 00:56:20.577 Yeah, yeah. 00:56:20.577 --> 00:56:29.853 And then at that point it becomes more about them growing as a business and maintaining themselves as a business and diversifying and and things. 00:56:29.853 --> 00:56:40.230 And they just take over everything and we lose all of the smaller companies doing interesting things because the market's just not open for that anymore. 00:56:40.230 --> 00:56:51.574 Yeah, but then it, then there's also a process of like subverting those more homogenous technologies as well. 00:56:51.574 --> 00:57:04.320 That then creates like a new cycle of like customization because like it's very similar to the story of cell phones and how at first they were introduced to businessmen to be more productive and efficient from home. 00:57:04.320 --> 00:57:06.623 And then it was adopted by housewives. 00:57:06.623 --> 00:57:16.498 So using it for chit chat, which then was a revelation for the technology and kind of changed its whole course to cell phones now actually being more for social uses. 00:57:16.498 --> 00:57:19.335 Of course, now that filters into work uses. 00:57:19.335 --> 00:57:35.684 But still, you know, there's there's a similar pattern here where like business computers took over education and now these computers are trying to adapt to education after being adopted by that specified establishment like schools. 00:57:35.684 --> 00:57:44.760 So, yeah, I can kind of see how like micro be tried to reverse that chain of processes. 00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:50.300 And I think in many ways they were ahead of the game rather than too late to it. 00:57:50.500 --> 00:57:54.804 But it's just that the finance technologies somehow always take over. 00:57:54.804 --> 00:58:09.918 And again, I think, you know, we all know why that happens, like finance technologies are just taken more seriously then niche edge computers like microbeads, because they they only have a life span and schools. 00:58:09.918 --> 00:58:19.228 And yeah, part of it is that many people believe I think also that like schools just there to kind of uphold the economy. 00:58:19.228 --> 00:58:24.800 So why not train kids on machines that they'll be, you know, working and living with for the rest? 00:58:24.800 --> 00:58:44.286 Well, So it's kind of something really sad, something that that Allen and Hill was saying was that the then niche market of the primary schools was was niche because it was more they were like non-threatening gaming computers essentially. 00:58:44.286 --> 00:58:54.731 And and that it was more about getting kids excited about computers and used to like the mechanisms of using a computer mouse and keyboard, you know the screen. 00:58:54.831 --> 00:59:02.438 But then when the reason IBM was in secondary schools was because secondary schools is when students are being trained to enter the workforce. 00:59:02.505 --> 00:59:19.155 And so they need to know how to use business computers and the things that they're doing, which they're learning, you know, like maths and and stuff like that is maybe more dismal software for that on a business computer. 00:59:19.155 --> 00:59:30.300 But yeah, like the idea for kids this young with these computers is more just to have be around technology. 00:59:30.365 --> 00:59:42.978 This was so new you know now you know kids babies with iPads and things and and you know everybody's so used to computers now in their lives but at the time this was had to be it had to be introduced slowly. 00:59:43.079 --> 00:59:43.413 Yeah. 00:59:43.413 --> 00:59:45.815 And this was the way for that to happen. 00:59:45.815 --> 00:59:46.282 Yeah. 00:59:46.282 --> 01:00:13.643 And I guess also building your own tools is like advanced way of like learning and making new sort of neural connections where you can, you know, you're not just like passively reading books, you're also just like literally making the stuff around you and experimenting and trial and error and mistakes happen and it's a yeah, it's a very yeah, just like really cool and creative way to like, actually learn. 01:00:13.742 --> 01:00:15.577 But yeah, what a great episode. 01:00:15.577 --> 01:00:16.378 Thanks Kamila. 01:00:16.378 --> 01:00:17.547 That was Thank you. 01:00:17.547 --> 01:00:19.581 I was so excited to find this one. 01:00:19.581 --> 01:00:24.119 I hadn't heard of it. And it's yeah, it's so cute and. 01:00:24.119 --> 01:00:37.733 I'm really interested in this childish experimentation of computers that I guess it was around a lot more while computers were being established as like we didn't really know what to do with them. 01:00:37.733 --> 01:00:47.309 So it's like, Oh, we'll see how these computers flow into society, but also we'll see how how the computers are being built by like kids. 01:00:47.309 --> 01:00:58.688 And yeah, I also like this idea of kind of making adjustments to see what works best for the children in that country. 01:00:58.755 --> 01:01:01.157 And so, you know, and the like, Oh, this wasn't working. 01:01:01.157 --> 01:01:09.431 So that's like, you know, schools preferring the micro B over the apple, too, because of all the various reasons that just fits in better. 01:01:09.498 --> 01:01:18.740 And then I guess it's kind of sad later when all of that goes away and we all on exactly the same computer, maybe it's not the best thing for us. 01:01:18.740 --> 01:01:25.947 Yeah, this is definitely like a a globalization study which which I love. 01:01:25.947 --> 01:01:29.485 Okay, cool. I think I think left and here. 01:01:29.585 --> 01:01:36.458 Yeah, it's over an hour and Oh, my God, my voice hurts world. 01:01:36.525 --> 01:01:39.494 I'm proud of you for, like, going through this week of. 01:01:39.494 --> 01:01:41.396 Of migraines and, like, being emotional. 01:01:41.396 --> 01:01:42.831 Yeah, I would say this. 01:01:42.831 --> 01:01:46.168 Yeah, but, you know, Yeah, we get through it. 01:01:46.168 --> 01:01:46.768 We get through it. 01:01:46.768 --> 01:01:47.269 Thank you. 01:01:47.269 --> 01:01:48.737 I'm excited for next month. 01:01:48.737 --> 01:01:50.706 I mean, hyped for this. 01:01:50.706 --> 01:02:00.282 I met the computer that we're going to be talking about when I was visiting you at a well, were you at it at the Computer History Museum? 01:02:00.282 --> 01:02:01.951 And then I saw it at the moment. 01:02:01.951 --> 01:02:04.519 So I'm yeah, I'm hyped. 01:02:04.519 --> 01:02:07.989 We'll let you in on on the goss next, next episode, next month. 01:02:07.989 --> 01:02:11.494 Thank you so much. Stay safe, everyone. 01:02:11.561 --> 01:02:13.262 Goodbye. Day.