{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":14.314,"endTime":15.248,"body":"Hello."},{"startTime":15.248,"endTime":18.585,"body":"Welcome to our friend the computer."},{"startTime":18.685,"endTime":22.422,"body":"We are a I don't know Ana, what are we"},{"startTime":18.685,"endTime":22.422,"body":"a tech history podcast."},{"startTime":22.422,"endTime":25.959,"body":"We wrote"},{"startTime":22.422,"endTime":25.959,"body":"Alternative computing histories, but."},{"startTime":25.959,"endTime":28.595,"body":"But also social histories."},{"startTime":28.595,"endTime":29.996,"body":"Social histories."},{"startTime":29.996,"endTime":32.499,"body":"We're looking at stories."},{"startTime":32.499,"endTime":35.702,"body":"Stories"},{"startTime":32.499,"endTime":35.702,"body":"from tech history, from computing history"},{"startTime":35.702,"endTime":40.507,"body":"that maybe not the normal stories"},{"startTime":35.702,"endTime":40.507,"body":"that get told."},{"startTime":40.573,"endTime":44.144,"body":"The sort of non US centric stories"},{"startTime":44.144,"endTime":48.314,"body":"about the development of computers"},{"startTime":44.144,"endTime":48.314,"body":"and the internet."},{"startTime":48.415,"endTime":49.716,"body":"I am Carmilla."},{"startTime":49.716,"endTime":53.353,"body":"I am a research based"},{"startTime":49.716,"endTime":53.353,"body":"visual artist, writer,"},{"startTime":53.453,"endTime":57.49,"body":"filmmaker, things of that ilk."},{"startTime":57.557,"endTime":59.059,"body":"And I'm Ana."},{"startTime":59.059,"endTime":62.429,"body":"I work in online education and I'm a web"},{"startTime":62.429,"endTime":65.999,"body":"developer and net art curator,"},{"startTime":62.429,"endTime":65.999,"body":"but it's a mouthful."},{"startTime":65.999,"endTime":69.702,"body":"So I wanted to say that"},{"startTime":65.999,"endTime":69.702,"body":"I just make websites but Camila told me"},{"startTime":69.702,"endTime":73.973,"body":"not to. You do so much more."},{"startTime":74.04,"endTime":77.41,"body":"I'm not like officially"},{"startTime":74.04,"endTime":77.41,"body":"any of those things,"},{"startTime":77.41,"endTime":79.813,"body":"but I've employed myself to do them."},{"startTime":79.813,"endTime":83.917,"body":"So I guess. You are officially"},{"startTime":79.813,"endTime":83.917,"body":"a net curator"},{"startTime":83.917,"endTime":88.388,"body":"and I know this"},{"startTime":83.917,"endTime":88.388,"body":"because you curated some net art of mine."},{"startTime":88.388,"endTime":93.026,"body":"That is true. Yeah. You're the validator"},{"startTime":93.093,"endTime":95.862,"body":"Ana runs external pages"},{"startTime":95.862,"endTime":99.399,"body":"which how do you"},{"startTime":95.862,"endTime":99.399,"body":"how do you explain external pages?"},{"startTime":99.466,"endTime":102.502,"body":"External pages is an online exhibition"},{"startTime":102.502,"endTime":105.839,"body":"space which hosts new net art."},{"startTime":105.972,"endTime":106.773,"body":"So it's basically"},{"startTime":106.773,"endTime":110.276,"body":"just like an online gallery"},{"startTime":106.773,"endTime":110.276,"body":"and it's got a bunch of net art on it."},{"startTime":110.276,"endTime":115.348,"body":"And there's a new exhibition coming out"},{"startTime":110.276,"endTime":115.348,"body":"usually every two months,"},{"startTime":115.415,"endTime":120.487,"body":"and I help produce that and code it"},{"startTime":115.415,"endTime":120.487,"body":"and everything else,"},{"startTime":120.487,"endTime":124.524,"body":"anything that the artist needs help"},{"startTime":120.487,"endTime":124.524,"body":"with, I'm there for it."},{"startTime":124.591,"endTime":125.792,"body":"So yeah, it's been fun."},{"startTime":125.792,"endTime":128.461,"body":"And then Camila made"},{"startTime":128.461,"endTime":132.665,"body":"one of the most more recent"},{"startTime":128.461,"endTime":132.665,"body":"art exhibitions"},{"startTime":132.665,"endTime":137.003,"body":"about Project Cybersyn, which is what"},{"startTime":132.665,"endTime":137.003,"body":"we're going to talk about today."},{"startTime":137.07,"endTime":140.073,"body":"Come on, we want to chat about that. Yeah."},{"startTime":140.206,"endTime":145.879,"body":"So I yeah, I worked on this project with,"},{"startTime":140.206,"endTime":145.879,"body":"with Ana and external pages"},{"startTime":145.979,"endTime":149.983,"body":"Called Redes, bread and justice, peaches and bananas."},{"startTime":150.049,"endTime":152.485,"body":"And when did we launch it."},{"startTime":152.485,"endTime":155.922,"body":"March, February, March 2021."},{"startTime":155.989,"endTime":159.859,"body":"Yeah. Definitely Lockdown times. Yeah."},{"startTime":159.959,"endTime":162.962,"body":"And it was, it was a project."},{"startTime":162.996,"endTime":168.835,"body":"So my family background is like my dad is"},{"startTime":162.996,"endTime":168.835,"body":"Chilean and I have a strong connection"},{"startTime":168.835,"endTime":173.606,"body":"with Chile and I'm Australian,"},{"startTime":168.835,"endTime":173.606,"body":"as you probably tell by my accent,"},{"startTime":173.673,"endTime":177.343,"body":"and I learn quite a few of my artworks."},{"startTime":177.343,"endTime":181.014,"body":"I sort of explore the second generation"},{"startTime":181.08,"endTime":185.852,"body":"exiled Chilean post dictatorship"},{"startTime":181.08,"endTime":185.852,"body":"sort of idea,"},{"startTime":185.919,"endTime":189.889,"body":"and this project was looking at"},{"startTime":189.989,"endTime":192.192,"body":"sort of socialist"},{"startTime":192.192,"endTime":195.762,"body":"uses of networks, computer networks"},{"startTime":195.762,"endTime":198.765,"body":"before and after the days of the Pinochet"},{"startTime":195.762,"endTime":198.765,"body":"dictatorship."},{"startTime":198.765,"endTime":201.467,"body":"So it was sort of looking"},{"startTime":201.467,"endTime":204.47,"body":"at the 2019 social uprising in Chile"},{"startTime":204.571,"endTime":207.34,"body":"and the use of Instagram"},{"startTime":207.34,"endTime":211.744,"body":"to document, to witness, to archive,"},{"startTime":211.811,"endTime":216.316,"body":"to form collectives and to organize."},{"startTime":216.416,"endTime":219.052,"body":"But I was looking at it"},{"startTime":216.416,"endTime":219.052,"body":"kind of in the context"},{"startTime":219.052,"endTime":223.323,"body":"of this sort of proto internet"},{"startTime":223.389,"endTime":228.394,"body":"from before the dictatorship"},{"startTime":223.389,"endTime":228.394,"body":"called Project Cybersyn or Proyecto Cinco."},{"startTime":228.461,"endTime":232.498,"body":"And what we ended up doing was"},{"startTime":232.565,"endTime":234.1,"body":"sort of creating"},{"startTime":234.1,"endTime":238.371,"body":"through some of Ana's coding expertise"},{"startTime":238.471,"endTime":241.207,"body":"a digital space"},{"startTime":238.471,"endTime":241.207,"body":"that you could go into that reflected"},{"startTime":241.207,"endTime":245.178,"body":"the design of projects I've chosen."},{"startTime":245.278,"endTime":248.748,"body":"But in in the sort of TV screens"},{"startTime":248.748,"endTime":253.186,"body":"and the monitors and things you saw"},{"startTime":253.286,"endTime":256.823,"body":"in sort of Instagram like current day"},{"startTime":256.923,"endTime":262.161,"body":"images and video,"},{"startTime":256.923,"endTime":262.161,"body":"and it was also an archive of like"},{"startTime":262.228,"endTime":266.032,"body":"an oral history of a sort of grassroots"},{"startTime":266.132,"endTime":270.336,"body":"Instagram account that was,"},{"startTime":270.403,"endTime":274.173,"body":"yeah, documenting what was happening"},{"startTime":270.403,"endTime":274.173,"body":"on the ground in the protests."},{"startTime":274.407,"endTime":278.444,"body":"So yeah, it was kind of this"},{"startTime":274.407,"endTime":278.444,"body":"like community project as well,"},{"startTime":278.444,"endTime":282.148,"body":"which was really cool"},{"startTime":278.444,"endTime":282.148,"body":"how that kind of community"},{"startTime":282.215,"endTime":285.018,"body":"incentives never really sort of"},{"startTime":285.018,"endTime":289.455,"body":"went away in terms of how it,"},{"startTime":285.018,"endTime":289.455,"body":"how the people on the ground"},{"startTime":289.455,"endTime":293.293,"body":"like we're using the Internet, how"},{"startTime":289.455,"endTime":293.293,"body":"that never kind of like escaped the like"},{"startTime":293.393,"endTime":296.829,"body":"feelings of the nation"},{"startTime":293.393,"endTime":296.829,"body":"and then also the ops room"},{"startTime":296.829,"endTime":302.001,"body":"was like a huge influence of like"},{"startTime":296.829,"endTime":302.001,"body":"how the user experience was designed."},{"startTime":302.001,"endTime":306.272,"body":"And that's kind of like"},{"startTime":302.001,"endTime":306.272,"body":"the very famous images of projects"},{"startTime":306.272,"endTime":308.941,"body":"I was in was the Upstream,"},{"startTime":306.272,"endTime":308.941,"body":"which was only part of the project,"},{"startTime":308.941,"endTime":312.812,"body":"but it was very kind of the esthetic"},{"startTime":308.941,"endTime":312.812,"body":"of the seventies,"},{"startTime":312.812,"endTime":316.949,"body":"where you had the kind of tulip chairs"},{"startTime":312.812,"endTime":316.949,"body":"which were also like an inspiration"},{"startTime":316.949,"endTime":322.021,"body":"to a lot of Trek Trekkie stuff,"},{"startTime":316.949,"endTime":322.021,"body":"and you had big recliners,"},{"startTime":322.021,"endTime":326.259,"body":"sort of armchairs that were part"},{"startTime":322.021,"endTime":326.259,"body":"of the mechanisms of the ops room."},{"startTime":326.259,"endTime":330.43,"body":"And then you had screens on the walls"},{"startTime":326.259,"endTime":330.43,"body":"and these chairs could kind of swivel"},{"startTime":330.43,"endTime":336.402,"body":"around and perform"},{"startTime":330.43,"endTime":336.402,"body":"all sorts of things which were just to"},{"startTime":336.469,"endTime":338.404,"body":"enable conversation, but also"},{"startTime":338.404,"endTime":344.644,"body":"to operate the distributed economy."},{"startTime":344.711,"endTime":349.682,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":344.711,"endTime":349.682,"body":"the project had a lot of lofty goals,"},{"startTime":349.849,"endTime":352.852,"body":"which I guess we'll go into, which also,"},{"startTime":352.985,"endTime":355.922,"body":"you know, stacks of utopian ideas, ideals."},{"startTime":355.922,"endTime":360.56,"body":"And so my project, I felt that similar."},{"startTime":360.593,"endTime":365.932,"body":"There was a similar sense"},{"startTime":360.593,"endTime":365.932,"body":"of kind of wanting to create"},{"startTime":365.932,"endTime":371.637,"body":"a, a better future through networks"},{"startTime":371.704,"endTime":375.775,"body":"that happened in 2019, 2020 as well."},{"startTime":375.842,"endTime":380.847,"body":"But with set projects,"},{"startTime":375.842,"endTime":380.847,"body":"I was saying they were ultimately"},{"startTime":380.847,"endTime":384.55,"body":"never really able to fully test"},{"startTime":384.617,"endTime":387.153,"body":"test the system"},{"startTime":384.617,"endTime":387.153,"body":"or like bring it to fruition"},{"startTime":387.153,"endTime":391.991,"body":"because the project was cut really short"},{"startTime":387.153,"endTime":391.991,"body":"by the coup d'état in 1973."},{"startTime":392.058,"endTime":396.195,"body":"So and that ran through 1990."},{"startTime":396.295,"endTime":400.233,"body":"So we're going to talk a little bit"},{"startTime":396.295,"endTime":400.233,"body":"about this today."},{"startTime":400.299,"endTime":403.903,"body":"In this podcast,"},{"startTime":400.299,"endTime":403.903,"body":"we're kind of going to switch out our"},{"startTime":404.003,"endTime":408.541,"body":"main researcher for each episode"},{"startTime":404.003,"endTime":408.541,"body":"and also for the first few"},{"startTime":408.541,"endTime":414.28,"body":"episodes, we're focusing on these sort"},{"startTime":408.541,"endTime":414.28,"body":"of pre-Internet networks."},{"startTime":414.347,"endTime":415.815,"body":"So today,"},{"startTime":415.815,"endTime":419.385,"body":"because this is based on my project,"},{"startTime":415.815,"endTime":419.385,"body":"I am the I am the researcher."},{"startTime":419.385,"endTime":422.588,"body":"So yes, I will get into it."},{"startTime":422.588,"endTime":423.79,"body":"I guess so, yeah."},{"startTime":423.79,"endTime":428.694,"body":"And as you said, if people know"},{"startTime":423.79,"endTime":428.694,"body":"kind of peripherally about Project"},{"startTime":428.694,"endTime":433.366,"body":"Cybersyn, it's through the aesthetics"},{"startTime":428.694,"endTime":433.366,"body":"of this main operations room."},{"startTime":433.466,"endTime":435.802,"body":"So Cybersyn had several elements to it,"},{"startTime":435.802,"endTime":438.971,"body":"but a core part was the operations room."},{"startTime":439.071,"endTime":443.943,"body":"So it's a kind of like a, like a war room"},{"startTime":439.071,"endTime":443.943,"body":"five, and it's called ops room, and so"},{"startTime":443.943,"endTime":448.548,"body":"is this hexagon, a room with monitors"},{"startTime":443.943,"endTime":448.548,"body":"and information on the walls."},{"startTime":448.548,"endTime":451.551,"body":"There was also, I think, a"},{"startTime":451.584,"endTime":455.221,"body":"like a rose, a pin board"},{"startTime":451.584,"endTime":455.221,"body":"or like a one of those felt boards"},{"startTime":455.221,"endTime":460.893,"body":"where you could move around elements"},{"startTime":455.221,"endTime":460.893,"body":"of diagrams and things."},{"startTime":460.96,"endTime":462.495,"body":"So I sort of enjoy that."},{"startTime":462.495,"endTime":466.132,"body":"It's like a"},{"startTime":462.495,"endTime":466.132,"body":"like a toddlers playground something."},{"startTime":466.265,"endTime":467.733,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":467.834,"endTime":471.07,"body":"And then the storming material. Yes."},{"startTime":471.17,"endTime":475.708,"body":"That really appeals to me is not"},{"startTime":471.17,"endTime":475.708,"body":"is like all the stairs like boards."},{"startTime":475.708,"endTime":478.711,"body":"Just get anything down."},{"startTime":475.708,"endTime":478.711,"body":"Any thoughts. Yeah."},{"startTime":478.711,"endTime":482.482,"body":"And then in the center"},{"startTime":478.711,"endTime":482.482,"body":"there was this sort of circle"},{"startTime":482.482,"endTime":485.985,"body":"of these fiberglass chairs"},{"startTime":482.482,"endTime":485.985,"body":"and it was circular."},{"startTime":485.985,"endTime":488.621,"body":"So that was a hierarchical."},{"startTime":488.621,"endTime":493.192,"body":"And it's also this like iconic design,"},{"startTime":488.621,"endTime":493.192,"body":"seventies design."},{"startTime":493.192,"endTime":496.162,"body":"It was like orange wood paneling."},{"startTime":496.162,"endTime":499.065,"body":"The tulip chairs."},{"startTime":499.065,"endTime":499.398,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":499.398,"endTime":501.133,"body":"Like the ones that they used on Star Trek."},{"startTime":501.133,"endTime":503.97,"body":"But actually,"},{"startTime":501.133,"endTime":503.97,"body":"I don't know, Star Trek came."},{"startTime":503.97,"endTime":507.473,"body":"I mean, Star Trek was before this,"},{"startTime":503.97,"endTime":507.473,"body":"but I don't think"},{"startTime":507.473,"endTime":510.543,"body":"there was actually much connection"},{"startTime":507.473,"endTime":510.543,"body":"between them."},{"startTime":510.543,"endTime":513.279,"body":"It might have just been the seventies."},{"startTime":513.279,"endTime":516.883,"body":"Yeah, the design of the seventies."},{"startTime":516.949,"endTime":518.417,"body":"So on these chairs."},{"startTime":518.417,"endTime":523.122,"body":"So yeah,"},{"startTime":518.417,"endTime":523.122,"body":"they also had like ashtrays, right?"},{"startTime":523.122,"endTime":525.491,"body":"Built into the arms of the chairs."},{"startTime":525.491,"endTime":529.462,"body":"So they would have on outside,"},{"startTime":525.491,"endTime":529.462,"body":"they would have like sort of keyboards"},{"startTime":529.462,"endTime":532.465,"body":"as part of the arm"},{"startTime":529.462,"endTime":532.465,"body":"and then the other side,"},{"startTime":532.532,"endTime":539.338,"body":"the other arm would be an ashtray,"},{"startTime":532.532,"endTime":539.338,"body":"which was unbelievable and so significant."},{"startTime":539.338,"endTime":541.841,"body":"And the seventies sort of that attitude."},{"startTime":541.841,"endTime":542.174,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":542.174,"endTime":546.812,"body":"I mean, I, I still find it weird when"},{"startTime":542.174,"endTime":546.812,"body":"I say ashtrays that I built into things."},{"startTime":546.812,"endTime":549.048,"body":"I was I was catching a little fly."},{"startTime":549.048,"endTime":551.784,"body":"I think I was in like grease"},{"startTime":549.048,"endTime":551.784,"body":"a few years ago."},{"startTime":551.784,"endTime":553.953,"body":"So I was like"},{"startTime":551.784,"endTime":553.953,"body":"on one of those little airplanes."},{"startTime":553.953,"endTime":559.058,"body":"And there wasn't one like an ashtray"},{"startTime":553.953,"endTime":559.058,"body":"in the armrest of the airplane."},{"startTime":559.058,"endTime":561.16,"body":"So yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":561.16,"endTime":564.564,"body":"With the little metal top"},{"startTime":561.16,"endTime":564.564,"body":"that you can, like,"},{"startTime":564.597,"endTime":567.7,"body":"push down to open and close it,"},{"startTime":564.597,"endTime":567.7,"body":"they would have it."},{"startTime":567.8,"endTime":571.771,"body":"So yeah, the same, that same style."},{"startTime":571.837,"endTime":575.174,"body":"Back in the day. Back in the day."},{"startTime":575.274,"endTime":577.51,"body":"So yeah, these chairs"},{"startTime":577.51,"endTime":582.415,"body":"on the other side of the armrest"},{"startTime":577.51,"endTime":582.415,"body":"had buttons"},{"startTime":582.481,"endTime":585.284,"body":"that could control"},{"startTime":582.481,"endTime":585.284,"body":"the information that came up"},{"startTime":585.284,"endTime":588.287,"body":"on the screens of the room."},{"startTime":588.287,"endTime":594.193,"body":"And these screens were called"},{"startTime":588.287,"endTime":594.193,"body":"data feed screens."},{"startTime":594.26,"endTime":598.464,"body":"They look like TV monitors, but they were"},{"startTime":594.26,"endTime":598.464,"body":"actually just like displaying slide"},{"startTime":598.464,"endTime":603.703,"body":"projections and graphs with information"},{"startTime":598.464,"endTime":603.703,"body":"that I think had been sort of"},{"startTime":603.803,"endTime":606.138,"body":"brought in so people could go in and like"},{"startTime":606.138,"endTime":609.141,"body":"look through it more easily."},{"startTime":609.241,"endTime":613.846,"body":"And the big buttons were sort of"},{"startTime":609.241,"endTime":613.846,"body":"in different shapes, squares, circles,"},{"startTime":613.846,"endTime":619.552,"body":"diamonds, and everything in the room"},{"startTime":613.846,"endTime":619.552,"body":"was controlled by these buttons."},{"startTime":619.552,"endTime":623.823,"body":"And so you could click individual buttons,"},{"startTime":619.552,"endTime":623.823,"body":"but there was also sequences"},{"startTime":623.889,"endTime":627.893,"body":"that you could use because there weren't"},{"startTime":623.889,"endTime":627.893,"body":"enough buttons, I guess."},{"startTime":627.96,"endTime":628.995,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":628.995,"endTime":632.498,"body":"There was another screen in the room"},{"startTime":628.995,"endTime":632.498,"body":"that had the kind of code, you know,"},{"startTime":632.531,"endTime":635.201,"body":"the key to"},{"startTime":635.267,"endTime":638.27,"body":"how to how"},{"startTime":635.267,"endTime":638.27,"body":"to use the buttons to control everything."},{"startTime":638.437,"endTime":641.407,"body":"And the main sort of research"},{"startTime":641.407,"endTime":646.045,"body":"and academic that has done"},{"startTime":641.407,"endTime":646.045,"body":"work on projects I was in is Adan Medina"},{"startTime":646.045,"endTime":646.812,"body":"and she has a book"},{"startTime":646.812,"endTime":650.816,"body":"that's called Cybernetic Revolutionaries"},{"startTime":646.812,"endTime":650.816,"body":"Technology and Politics In."},{"startTime":650.85,"endTime":653.619,"body":"And there's Chile and it's very good."},{"startTime":653.619,"endTime":657.89,"body":"And she points out that there was"},{"startTime":653.619,"endTime":657.89,"body":"a conscious design design decision"},{"startTime":657.89,"endTime":662.662,"body":"to not use an actual keyboard"},{"startTime":657.89,"endTime":662.662,"body":"like text based keyboard,"},{"startTime":662.762,"endTime":666.532,"body":"because in the early seventies,"},{"startTime":662.762,"endTime":666.532,"body":"typing on a keyboard was considered"},{"startTime":666.532,"endTime":671.704,"body":"a specialized skill that mostly women"},{"startTime":666.532,"endTime":671.704,"body":"had, like trained secretaries."},{"startTime":671.771,"endTime":675.941,"body":"And even though this was a space"},{"startTime":671.771,"endTime":675.941,"body":"that was trying to be so egalitarian,"},{"startTime":675.941,"endTime":681.48,"body":"there was this bias, this presumption"},{"startTime":675.941,"endTime":681.48,"body":"of who would be using the room."},{"startTime":681.547,"endTime":685.284,"body":"It wouldn't be the secretaries,"},{"startTime":681.547,"endTime":685.284,"body":"it would be these like"},{"startTime":685.351,"endTime":688.187,"body":"men, people in power"},{"startTime":688.187,"endTime":693.459,"body":"who didn't have this,"},{"startTime":688.187,"endTime":693.459,"body":"like menial skill of typing."},{"startTime":693.526,"endTime":696.796,"body":"And there"},{"startTime":693.526,"endTime":696.796,"body":"was also kind of a design element where"},{"startTime":696.796,"endTime":700.833,"body":"that was sort of based on the idea of this"},{"startTime":696.796,"endTime":700.833,"body":"like gentlemen's club,"},{"startTime":700.833,"endTime":705.004,"body":"which is I guess"},{"startTime":700.833,"endTime":705.004,"body":"also the the ashtray situation"},{"startTime":705.071,"endTime":709.108,"body":"and kind of the casualness of the chairs"},{"startTime":705.071,"endTime":709.108,"body":"and Medina nights."},{"startTime":709.141,"endTime":712.878,"body":"This is a quote that the design"},{"startTime":709.141,"endTime":712.878,"body":"of the operations room illustrates"},{"startTime":712.878,"endTime":718.584,"body":"that even futuristic visions of modernity"},{"startTime":712.878,"endTime":718.584,"body":"carry assumptions about gender and class."},{"startTime":718.651,"endTime":719.285,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":719.285,"endTime":723.022,"body":"Which is yeah, it's interesting"},{"startTime":719.285,"endTime":723.022,"body":"that that this wasn't"},{"startTime":723.089,"endTime":725.791,"body":"an art like, critiqued or analyzed"},{"startTime":723.089,"endTime":725.791,"body":"so much."},{"startTime":725.791,"endTime":730.763,"body":"It was just kind of an assumption"},{"startTime":725.791,"endTime":730.763,"body":"about about who would be using the space."},{"startTime":730.863,"endTime":731.263,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":731.263,"endTime":734.633,"body":"And also it's really interesting"},{"startTime":734.633,"endTime":740.473,"body":"to see how there was such"},{"startTime":734.633,"endTime":740.473,"body":"a intentional decision to make the design"},{"startTime":740.473,"endTime":744.744,"body":"so different to what is like a switchboard"},{"startTime":740.473,"endTime":744.744,"body":"operator room."},{"startTime":744.81,"endTime":749.381,"body":"So there was actually like"},{"startTime":744.81,"endTime":749.381,"body":"hardware decision choices to make it"},{"startTime":749.381,"endTime":753.419,"body":"look different and act differently to it"},{"startTime":749.381,"endTime":753.419,"body":"being just like a switchboard"},{"startTime":753.419,"endTime":756.922,"body":"because that's what women used"},{"startTime":753.419,"endTime":756.922,"body":"and that's what women use during the war."},{"startTime":757.022,"endTime":760.459,"body":"And it's a totally different fight"},{"startTime":757.022,"endTime":760.459,"body":"that they were playing."},{"startTime":760.459,"endTime":764.497,"body":"It was more of like an intellectual race"},{"startTime":760.459,"endTime":764.497,"body":"of building"},{"startTime":764.563,"endTime":768.734,"body":"technology and distributing the economy"},{"startTime":764.563,"endTime":768.734,"body":"rather than like, we're at war"},{"startTime":768.734,"endTime":773.072,"body":"and we only have these people left"},{"startTime":768.734,"endTime":773.072,"body":"to handle these technologies."},{"startTime":773.072,"endTime":778.043,"body":"That's something"},{"startTime":773.072,"endTime":778.043,"body":"that's a lot more a lot higher in terms of"},{"startTime":778.11,"endTime":779.912,"body":"labor."},{"startTime":779.912,"endTime":782.481,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":779.912,"endTime":782.481,"body":"and I suppose we'll go into this later."},{"startTime":782.481,"endTime":787.353,"body":"But I mean, it was sort of a"},{"startTime":782.481,"endTime":787.353,"body":"nonhierarchical system and everybody"},{"startTime":787.353,"endTime":790.79,"body":"was meant to have kind of input,"},{"startTime":790.89,"endTime":793.392,"body":"but it was still"},{"startTime":793.392,"endTime":798.197,"body":"sort of managerial decisions happening"},{"startTime":793.392,"endTime":798.197,"body":"based on this information"},{"startTime":798.197,"endTime":801.867,"body":"that was put into input into the network."},{"startTime":801.934,"endTime":804.97,"body":"So yeah, I'm not sure in that sense,"},{"startTime":804.97,"endTime":808.474,"body":"like how much was actually being changed."},{"startTime":808.541,"endTime":814.146,"body":"MM From kind of the hierarchy"},{"startTime":808.541,"endTime":814.146,"body":"that the preexisting hierarchy."},{"startTime":814.213,"endTime":817.583,"body":"So Cybersyn was originally formed"},{"startTime":817.683,"endTime":821.554,"body":"using a few computers that, that Chile had"},{"startTime":821.687,"endTime":826.659,"body":"and a preexisting telex network"},{"startTime":821.687,"endTime":826.659,"body":"that they then expanded upon."},{"startTime":826.725,"endTime":831.33,"body":"Now telex is sort of, I don't know, I was"},{"startTime":826.725,"endTime":831.33,"body":"trying to think about how to explain it."},{"startTime":831.33,"endTime":833.465,"body":"It's kind of almost like a fax machine."},{"startTime":833.465,"endTime":838.604,"body":"So each machine has a number"},{"startTime":833.465,"endTime":838.604,"body":"that you call to establish a connection,"},{"startTime":838.704,"endTime":840.906,"body":"but in this case of the telex,"},{"startTime":840.906,"endTime":844.577,"body":"you type out the message"},{"startTime":840.906,"endTime":844.577,"body":"on a keyboard in the machine,"},{"startTime":844.577,"endTime":848.047,"body":"and then that message gets printed out"},{"startTime":844.577,"endTime":848.047,"body":"by the machine at the other end."},{"startTime":848.113,"endTime":852.017,"body":"But it also like"},{"startTime":848.113,"endTime":852.017,"body":"there has to be an operator at both ends"},{"startTime":852.017,"endTime":855.421,"body":"to kind of make the call"},{"startTime":852.017,"endTime":855.421,"body":"and send the message"},{"startTime":855.421,"endTime":858.39,"body":"and then pick up the call"},{"startTime":855.421,"endTime":858.39,"body":"and receive the message."},{"startTime":858.524,"endTime":860.659,"body":"So the main purpose"},{"startTime":860.659,"endTime":865.397,"body":"in this early stage of Cybersyn"},{"startTime":860.659,"endTime":865.397,"body":"was to connect factories throughout Chile"},{"startTime":865.497,"endTime":869.134,"body":"and so they could see"},{"startTime":865.497,"endTime":869.134,"body":"what's going on at all times"},{"startTime":869.201,"endTime":873.072,"body":"and using computer technology"},{"startTime":869.201,"endTime":873.072,"body":"to make predictions and simulations"},{"startTime":873.138,"endTime":877.509,"body":"based on data"},{"startTime":873.138,"endTime":877.509,"body":"so that everything runs effectively."},{"startTime":877.576,"endTime":882.581,"body":"And while interior design"},{"startTime":877.576,"endTime":882.581,"body":"was quite important to the project,"},{"startTime":882.681,"endTime":884.817,"body":"probably the most important part"},{"startTime":882.681,"endTime":884.817,"body":"was actually"},{"startTime":884.817,"endTime":887.82,"body":"the design"},{"startTime":884.817,"endTime":887.82,"body":"and purpose of the network itself."},{"startTime":887.82,"endTime":891.624,"body":"So Cybersyn was an island"},{"startTime":887.82,"endTime":891.624,"body":"administration project."},{"startTime":891.69,"endTime":894.66,"body":"The Allende government"},{"startTime":891.69,"endTime":894.66,"body":"was a democratically elected"},{"startTime":894.66,"endTime":895.728,"body":"socialist government."},{"startTime":895.728,"endTime":900.466,"body":"If their popular unity party in Chile,"},{"startTime":895.728,"endTime":900.466,"body":"which came to power in 1970,"},{"startTime":900.566,"endTime":904.236,"body":"they were looking for ways"},{"startTime":900.566,"endTime":904.236,"body":"to reconstruct elements of the country,"},{"startTime":904.236,"endTime":907.239,"body":"the way that things worked"},{"startTime":904.236,"endTime":907.239,"body":"in a socialist way"},{"startTime":907.439,"endTime":909.875,"body":"to nationalize industries"},{"startTime":909.875,"endTime":912.878,"body":"while including worker participation."},{"startTime":913.045,"endTime":916.315,"body":"And this economic shift"},{"startTime":913.045,"endTime":916.315,"body":"was incredibly ambitious"},{"startTime":916.315,"endTime":920.452,"body":"and they felt like they had time to get it"},{"startTime":916.315,"endTime":920.452,"body":"done,"},{"startTime":920.552,"endTime":925.591,"body":"which unfortunately,"},{"startTime":920.552,"endTime":925.591,"body":"spoiler alert wasn't the case"},{"startTime":925.658,"endTime":926.158,"body":"that in"},{"startTime":926.158,"endTime":932.164,"body":"1971, Fernando Flores, who was a minister"},{"startTime":926.158,"endTime":932.164,"body":"in the state development agency,"},{"startTime":932.231,"endTime":935.134,"body":"had been starting to get interested"},{"startTime":932.231,"endTime":935.134,"body":"in cybernetics"},{"startTime":935.134,"endTime":939.505,"body":"as a possible method of achieving"},{"startTime":935.134,"endTime":939.505,"body":"these sort of socialist goals."},{"startTime":939.571,"endTime":944.51,"body":"So we contacted Stafford BIA in the UK,"},{"startTime":939.571,"endTime":944.51,"body":"whose very famous cybernetics"},{"startTime":944.61,"endTime":949.448,"body":"and management consulting,"},{"startTime":944.61,"endTime":949.448,"body":"and he had been theorizing about"},{"startTime":949.515,"endTime":953.285,"body":"how cybernetics could"},{"startTime":949.515,"endTime":953.285,"body":"possibly be used in this way."},{"startTime":953.352,"endTime":955.921,"body":"But here for him,"},{"startTime":953.352,"endTime":955.921,"body":"Chile was really a project"},{"startTime":955.921,"endTime":958.924,"body":"where he could see his theories"},{"startTime":955.921,"endTime":958.924,"body":"through to a practical,"},{"startTime":959.091,"endTime":961.961,"body":"real world implementation."},{"startTime":961.961,"endTime":965.397,"body":"So they have like a couple of letters"},{"startTime":961.961,"endTime":965.397,"body":"back and forth and he ends up"},{"startTime":965.397,"endTime":971.203,"body":"coming to Chile to oversee this"},{"startTime":965.397,"endTime":971.203,"body":"grand cybernetics project alongside Flores"},{"startTime":971.27,"endTime":974.073,"body":"and a senior advisor named Role"},{"startTime":974.073,"endTime":977.509,"body":"as well, and also a small team"},{"startTime":977.609,"endTime":980.646,"body":"And staff would be like,"},{"startTime":977.609,"endTime":980.646,"body":"Normally I am really expensive,"},{"startTime":980.646,"endTime":983.082,"body":"but for you I'll make an exception."},{"startTime":983.082,"endTime":986.585,"body":"You can just pay me $500 a day"},{"startTime":983.082,"endTime":986.585,"body":"and then as much chocolate"},{"startTime":986.585,"endTime":989.254,"body":"wine and cigars as I need."},{"startTime":989.321,"endTime":989.722,"body":"And then it"},{"startTime":989.722,"endTime":993.525,"body":"turned out that the wine and the cigars"},{"startTime":989.722,"endTime":993.525,"body":"and the chocolate actually"},{"startTime":993.625,"endTime":996.695,"body":"was costing so much money"},{"startTime":993.625,"endTime":996.695,"body":"because they've got like"},{"startTime":996.729,"endTime":999.732,"body":"food shortages"},{"startTime":996.729,"endTime":999.732,"body":"and embargoes against those things."},{"startTime":999.932,"endTime":1000.766,"body":"So that was it."},{"startTime":1000.766,"endTime":1005.037,"body":"I'm not sure how good of a deal."},{"startTime":1005.104,"endTime":1006.872,"body":"So suddenly winning."},{"startTime":1006.872,"endTime":1009.108,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":1009.108,"endTime":1012.811,"body":"I'm going to put that in"},{"startTime":1009.108,"endTime":1012.811,"body":"like all my future"},{"startTime":1012.911,"endTime":1016.482,"body":"work contracts."},{"startTime":1016.582,"endTime":1019.885,"body":"So he starts creating this"},{"startTime":1016.582,"endTime":1019.885,"body":"like cybernetic scaffold"},{"startTime":1019.885,"endTime":1025.591,"body":"that will eventually become the outline"},{"startTime":1019.885,"endTime":1025.591,"body":"of how project Cybersyn will work."},{"startTime":1025.691,"endTime":1030.362,"body":"So we need to talk about cybernetics"},{"startTime":1025.691,"endTime":1030.362,"body":"to understand this."},{"startTime":1030.362,"endTime":1032.564,"body":"I guess"},{"startTime":1032.564,"endTime":1034.299,"body":"pull me up on things, Ana"},{"startTime":1034.299,"endTime":1038.504,"body":"if it's confusing or wrong course."},{"startTime":1038.57,"endTime":1042.975,"body":"So these theories on cybernetics"},{"startTime":1038.57,"endTime":1042.975,"body":"work on a viable system model,"},{"startTime":1042.975,"endTime":1046.879,"body":"which is a system that is complex,"},{"startTime":1042.975,"endTime":1046.879,"body":"adaptive and dynamic,"},{"startTime":1046.945,"endTime":1052.651,"body":"where information is fed back into itself,"},{"startTime":1046.945,"endTime":1052.651,"body":"which initiates further actions"},{"startTime":1052.751,"endTime":1057.423,"body":"and cybernetics"},{"startTime":1052.751,"endTime":1057.423,"body":"really is about communication and control,"},{"startTime":1057.489,"endTime":1061.493,"body":"looking at sort of automatic systems"},{"startTime":1057.489,"endTime":1061.493,"body":"within animals and machines,"},{"startTime":1061.493,"endTime":1065.631,"body":"but also to businesses,"},{"startTime":1061.493,"endTime":1065.631,"body":"as in the case of management cybernetics,"},{"startTime":1065.631,"endTime":1068.967,"body":"which sort of crosses"},{"startTime":1065.631,"endTime":1068.967,"body":"engineering and biology."},{"startTime":1069.034,"endTime":1073.539,"body":"And in many ways the normal hierarchies"},{"startTime":1069.034,"endTime":1073.539,"body":"of networks disrupted here."},{"startTime":1073.639,"endTime":1075.774,"body":"And there's quite a famous quote of staff"},{"startTime":1075.774,"endTime":1079.211,"body":"be aware his describing"},{"startTime":1075.774,"endTime":1079.211,"body":"presenting this cybernetic"},{"startTime":1079.211,"endTime":1082.281,"body":"graph this outline to a day"},{"startTime":1079.211,"endTime":1082.281,"body":"and he's going through"},{"startTime":1082.281,"endTime":1086.752,"body":"all the levels and sections"},{"startTime":1082.281,"endTime":1086.752,"body":"and then he gets to sort of the top"},{"startTime":1086.819,"endTime":1090.222,"body":"and he's about to announce to Allende"},{"startTime":1086.819,"endTime":1090.222,"body":"that this is where his position is"},{"startTime":1090.222,"endTime":1094.76,"body":"in the system and Allende stops them"},{"startTime":1090.222,"endTime":1094.76,"body":"and he says, Oh, finally, the people."},{"startTime":1094.827,"endTime":1097.83,"body":"This is you know,"},{"startTime":1094.827,"endTime":1097.83,"body":"this project was about joining"},{"startTime":1097.83,"endTime":1101.4,"body":"cybernetics and socialism"},{"startTime":1097.83,"endTime":1101.4,"body":"and theory and politics."},{"startTime":1101.467,"endTime":1103.902,"body":"They were trying to create something"},{"startTime":1101.467,"endTime":1103.902,"body":"really unique."},{"startTime":1103.902,"endTime":1108.006,"body":"And and a step would be"},{"startTime":1103.902,"endTime":1108.006,"body":"I was really impressed that Allende"},{"startTime":1108.107,"endTime":1113.145,"body":"saw this position"},{"startTime":1108.107,"endTime":1113.145,"body":"not as like a position of control"},{"startTime":1113.145,"endTime":1115.514,"body":"that he held,"},{"startTime":1113.145,"endTime":1115.514,"body":"but something that, you know,"},{"startTime":1115.514,"endTime":1118.584,"body":"everybody in the country could be"},{"startTime":1115.514,"endTime":1118.584,"body":"could be involved in."},{"startTime":1118.584,"endTime":1122.588,"body":"And because of input into this"},{"startTime":1118.584,"endTime":1122.588,"body":"computer network."},{"startTime":1122.688,"endTime":1125.124,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":1125.19,"endTime":1127.192,"body":"But something that we have to"},{"startTime":1127.192,"endTime":1131.029,"body":"remember in the background of all of this"},{"startTime":1127.192,"endTime":1131.029,"body":"is that during this time,"},{"startTime":1131.096,"endTime":1134.7,"body":"the government is putting up"},{"startTime":1131.096,"endTime":1134.7,"body":"against international attempts"},{"startTime":1134.7,"endTime":1139.538,"body":"to undermine and overturn"},{"startTime":1134.7,"endTime":1139.538,"body":"the democratically elected government."},{"startTime":1139.638,"endTime":1145.41,"body":"By 1973, this obviously escalated"},{"startTime":1139.638,"endTime":1145.41,"body":"to a backing of the coup"},{"startTime":1145.41,"endTime":1148.914,"body":"that ended the anti government"},{"startTime":1145.41,"endTime":1148.914,"body":"and also in this life."},{"startTime":1148.981,"endTime":1153.152,"body":"But these attempts to undermine"},{"startTime":1148.981,"endTime":1153.152,"body":"the government were happening on slightly"},{"startTime":1153.152,"endTime":1156.989,"body":"less devastating scales"},{"startTime":1153.152,"endTime":1156.989,"body":"throughout this period of time,"},{"startTime":1157.055,"endTime":1160.726,"body":"which included economic blockades."},{"startTime":1160.792,"endTime":1164.596,"body":"And in the 18 months before the coup,"},{"startTime":1160.792,"endTime":1164.596,"body":"the CIA were secretly"},{"startTime":1164.596,"endTime":1169.234,"body":"providing initiatives for anti"},{"startTime":1164.596,"endTime":1169.234,"body":"and they strike actions,"},{"startTime":1169.334,"endTime":1174.606,"body":"particularly a conservative nationwide"},{"startTime":1169.334,"endTime":1174.606,"body":"truck driver strike in October 1972"},{"startTime":1174.606,"endTime":1180.179,"body":"that lasted 26 days, causing labor"},{"startTime":1174.606,"endTime":1180.179,"body":"and supply issues throughout the country."},{"startTime":1180.245,"endTime":1183.515,"body":"And because Project Sebastian"},{"startTime":1180.245,"endTime":1183.515,"body":"was concerned with connecting"},{"startTime":1183.615,"endTime":1185.184,"body":"factories, Allende"},{"startTime":1185.184,"endTime":1189.321,"body":"turned to Fernanda Flores"},{"startTime":1185.184,"endTime":1189.321,"body":"and the team to see if Project Cybersyn"},{"startTime":1189.321,"endTime":1194.126,"body":"could be utilized to prevent"},{"startTime":1189.321,"endTime":1194.126,"body":"total devastation from this strike."},{"startTime":1194.193,"endTime":1197.429,"body":"Cybersyn"},{"startTime":1194.193,"endTime":1197.429,"body":"at this point wasn't really operational"},{"startTime":1197.429,"endTime":1201.099,"body":"and the system and the upstream"},{"startTime":1197.429,"endTime":1201.099,"body":"were essentially a prototype."},{"startTime":1201.099,"endTime":1205.804,"body":"But because the the telex network between"},{"startTime":1201.099,"endTime":1205.804,"body":"the factories was already established,"},{"startTime":1205.804,"endTime":1211.71,"body":"they were able to use this real time"},{"startTime":1205.804,"endTime":1211.71,"body":"communication to find personnel of it."},{"startTime":1211.743,"endTime":1216.515,"body":"Bottlenecks, pinpoint where"},{"startTime":1211.743,"endTime":1216.515,"body":"supplies were needed and send things there"},{"startTime":1216.615,"endTime":1220.953,"body":"and keep the country functioning,"},{"startTime":1216.615,"endTime":1220.953,"body":"essentially, at least on a basic level."},{"startTime":1221.053,"endTime":1223.889,"body":"And Allende was incredibly impressed"},{"startTime":1221.053,"endTime":1223.889,"body":"by this."},{"startTime":1223.889,"endTime":1228.493,"body":"And over the following months, there was"},{"startTime":1223.889,"endTime":1228.493,"body":"a massive growth in the projects."},{"startTime":1228.527,"endTime":1231.263,"body":"This growth caused issues in its own ways."},{"startTime":1231.263,"endTime":1235.033,"body":"With so many new people involved,"},{"startTime":1231.263,"endTime":1235.033,"body":"it was getting harder to keep"},{"startTime":1235.033,"endTime":1238.036,"body":"the core ideals"},{"startTime":1235.033,"endTime":1238.036,"body":"and aims of the project intact."},{"startTime":1238.237,"endTime":1242.407,"body":"And Stafford himself"},{"startTime":1238.237,"endTime":1242.407,"body":"was getting very excited about"},{"startTime":1242.507,"endTime":1243.108,"body":"seeing"},{"startTime":1243.108,"endTime":1246.979,"body":"his theories in practice"},{"startTime":1243.108,"endTime":1246.979,"body":"and he started developing way more"},{"startTime":1246.979,"endTime":1250.315,"body":"far reaching projects"},{"startTime":1246.979,"endTime":1250.315,"body":"that would have basically cybernetic"},{"startTime":1250.315,"endTime":1252.951,"body":"sides, the whole country"},{"startTime":1250.315,"endTime":1252.951,"body":"and every element of it."},{"startTime":1252.951,"endTime":1258.457,"body":"There was various of early idea code"},{"startTime":1252.951,"endTime":1258.457,"body":"projects, cyber folk which would have put"},{"startTime":1258.457,"endTime":1263.762,"body":"a machine in every household"},{"startTime":1258.457,"endTime":1263.762,"body":"that tracked happiness levels,"},{"startTime":1263.862,"endTime":1267.666,"body":"which I'm not sure."},{"startTime":1267.766,"endTime":1270.769,"body":"I guess"},{"startTime":1267.766,"endTime":1270.769,"body":"if it's not actually monitoring you"},{"startTime":1270.869,"endTime":1274.64,"body":"and your, you have control over"},{"startTime":1270.869,"endTime":1274.64,"body":"like what you're inputting."},{"startTime":1274.706,"endTime":1276.475,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":1276.475,"endTime":1278.977,"body":"it's not so bad, but"},{"startTime":1278.977,"endTime":1282.18,"body":"like, like from, from decades later,"},{"startTime":1282.247,"endTime":1285.25,"body":"I think we can totally see"},{"startTime":1282.247,"endTime":1285.25,"body":"where the issues come in."},{"startTime":1285.25,"endTime":1289.921,"body":"Something like a"},{"startTime":1285.25,"endTime":1289.921,"body":"I mean, it's a cute it's a cute incentive."},{"startTime":1289.988,"endTime":1291.056,"body":"It's a cute incentive."},{"startTime":1291.056,"endTime":1296.395,"body":"But practically, I think I would hate"},{"startTime":1291.056,"endTime":1296.395,"body":"to have my house tell me that I'm sad."},{"startTime":1296.461,"endTime":1299.431,"body":"Now. You would be telling"},{"startTime":1296.461,"endTime":1299.431,"body":"your house that, you know. So"},{"startTime":1299.498,"endTime":1300.165,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":1300.165,"endTime":1304.369,"body":"And then that's like back to you because"},{"startTime":1300.165,"endTime":1304.369,"body":"it's trying to make you happy somehow."},{"startTime":1304.369,"endTime":1307.005,"body":"I guess that would be like"},{"startTime":1304.369,"endTime":1307.005,"body":"the end outcome. Maybe."},{"startTime":1307.005,"endTime":1308.473,"body":"Yeah, I guess so."},{"startTime":1308.473,"endTime":1311.243,"body":"It's like, yeah, it's like some weird app"},{"startTime":1311.243,"endTime":1315.58,"body":"that you check in every day and you say"},{"startTime":1311.243,"endTime":1315.58,"body":"it would be terrifying emotion."},{"startTime":1315.614,"endTime":1318.784,"body":"And then it gives you a reading"},{"startTime":1315.614,"endTime":1318.784,"body":"at the end of each month."},{"startTime":1318.784,"endTime":1321.186,"body":"And like,"},{"startTime":1318.784,"endTime":1321.186,"body":"I was more sad than happy this month."},{"startTime":1321.186,"endTime":1323.522,"body":"That's, that's fun. Yeah."},{"startTime":1323.522,"endTime":1326.091,"body":"And then the whole government"},{"startTime":1323.522,"endTime":1326.091,"body":"knows as well."},{"startTime":1326.091,"endTime":1330.128,"body":"Yeah, it would have to be anonymous,"},{"startTime":1326.091,"endTime":1330.128,"body":"but that's incredible."},{"startTime":1330.128,"endTime":1335.801,"body":"I mean, the fact that Cybersyn was able"},{"startTime":1330.128,"endTime":1335.801,"body":"to provide"},{"startTime":1336.001,"endTime":1341.006,"body":"that infrastructure"},{"startTime":1336.001,"endTime":1341.006,"body":"where people could like, yeah,"},{"startTime":1341.139,"endTime":1346.545,"body":"like you said, pinpoint"},{"startTime":1341.139,"endTime":1346.545,"body":"where supplies were needed and find stuff"},{"startTime":1346.545,"endTime":1349.681,"body":"that they needed and bottlenecks"},{"startTime":1346.545,"endTime":1349.681,"body":"and things like that."},{"startTime":1349.681,"endTime":1352.851,"body":"I think that is basically"},{"startTime":1349.681,"endTime":1352.851,"body":"what a distributed economy is."},{"startTime":1352.851,"endTime":1356.521,"body":"That's how it's supposed to function and"},{"startTime":1352.851,"endTime":1356.521,"body":"that's how it's supposed to function with,"},{"startTime":1356.588,"endTime":1359.424,"body":"with the rise of technology at the time,"},{"startTime":1359.424,"endTime":1363.895,"body":"because that's also what"},{"startTime":1359.424,"endTime":1363.895,"body":"a few other projects around the world,"},{"startTime":1363.895,"endTime":1369.768,"body":"cybernetic projects around the world,"},{"startTime":1363.895,"endTime":1369.768,"body":"were trying to achieve, socialist ones."},{"startTime":1369.835,"endTime":1370.402,"body":"So it's"},{"startTime":1370.402,"endTime":1374.973,"body":"it's pretty amazing"},{"startTime":1370.402,"endTime":1374.973,"body":"that it even did that on a basic level."},{"startTime":1375.073,"endTime":1375.44,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1375.44,"endTime":1380.779,"body":"And I mean, the telex stuff,"},{"startTime":1375.44,"endTime":1380.779,"body":"a lot of that was already established."},{"startTime":1380.846,"endTime":1384.149,"body":"It just wasn't being used in this way."},{"startTime":1384.216,"endTime":1385.117,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":1385.117,"endTime":1389.02,"body":"And it was this kind of,"},{"startTime":1385.117,"endTime":1389.02,"body":"I guess it's the socialist"},{"startTime":1389.121,"endTime":1392.257,"body":"element"},{"startTime":1389.121,"endTime":1392.257,"body":"of the construction of this network"},{"startTime":1392.257,"endTime":1396.027,"body":"where they were really encouraging"},{"startTime":1392.257,"endTime":1396.027,"body":"managers"},{"startTime":1396.094,"endTime":1398.83,"body":"of each of the individual factories"},{"startTime":1398.83,"endTime":1402.934,"body":"to have a say"},{"startTime":1398.83,"endTime":1402.934,"body":"and have input into how their factories"},{"startTime":1402.934,"endTime":1406.204,"body":"connected to the whole network"},{"startTime":1402.934,"endTime":1406.204,"body":"of factories in China."},{"startTime":1406.238,"endTime":1410.242,"body":"So I guess when people feel like"},{"startTime":1410.242,"endTime":1413.211,"body":"they have a stake or they have,"},{"startTime":1413.245,"endTime":1415.714,"body":"you know,"},{"startTime":1413.245,"endTime":1415.714,"body":"that their opinion is being listened to,"},{"startTime":1415.714,"endTime":1420.919,"body":"then they're more likely to want to use,"},{"startTime":1415.714,"endTime":1420.919,"body":"want to use the system and be involved."},{"startTime":1420.919,"endTime":1423.855,"body":"And then the system goes, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1423.855,"endTime":1428.16,"body":"Because that's that's I don't know"},{"startTime":1423.855,"endTime":1428.16,"body":"if you've read Oh my God, what is it?"},{"startTime":1428.16,"endTime":1432.13,"body":"The Walmart book about the distributed"},{"startTime":1428.16,"endTime":1432.13,"body":"economy of Wal-Mart."},{"startTime":1432.164,"endTime":1436.168,"body":"Now and how the digital operation"},{"startTime":1436.234,"endTime":1439.037,"body":"of the resources in Wal-Mart"},{"startTime":1439.037,"endTime":1442.407,"body":"is working in a completely socialist way"},{"startTime":1442.474,"endTime":1447.712,"body":"where they do exactly this,"},{"startTime":1442.474,"endTime":1447.712,"body":"where they put in their data of what"},{"startTime":1447.712,"endTime":1450.715,"body":"every store has,"},{"startTime":1447.712,"endTime":1450.715,"body":"and then when there's missing,"},{"startTime":1450.816,"endTime":1455.353,"body":"when when they're low on"},{"startTime":1450.816,"endTime":1455.353,"body":"some in some regions, then they can get"},{"startTime":1455.353,"endTime":1459.958,"body":"that transported from a different Walmart"},{"startTime":1455.353,"endTime":1459.958,"body":"or like a different store."},{"startTime":1460.025,"endTime":1465.263,"body":"And it distributes resources,"},{"startTime":1460.025,"endTime":1465.263,"body":"but it also moves"},{"startTime":1465.53,"endTime":1469.1,"body":"things from one department"},{"startTime":1465.53,"endTime":1469.1,"body":"to another in a very efficient way."},{"startTime":1469.167,"endTime":1472.838,"body":"And they're able to kind of like"},{"startTime":1469.167,"endTime":1472.838,"body":"save money, but then also have like"},{"startTime":1472.838,"endTime":1474.172,"body":"a very regulated way"},{"startTime":1474.172,"endTime":1478.41,"body":"of all of the kind of income"},{"startTime":1474.172,"endTime":1478.41,"body":"that's coming into the different stores."},{"startTime":1478.477,"endTime":1481.48,"body":"And so they're working in this"},{"startTime":1478.477,"endTime":1481.48,"body":"very kind of like"},{"startTime":1481.613,"endTime":1484.583,"body":"cybernetic socialist way"},{"startTime":1484.749,"endTime":1489.421,"body":"that, yeah, that early cyber geneticists"},{"startTime":1484.749,"endTime":1489.421,"body":"were kind of fantasizing about."},{"startTime":1489.521,"endTime":1493.992,"body":"And I think there's like a famous quote"},{"startTime":1489.521,"endTime":1493.992,"body":"that says that Walmart"},{"startTime":1493.992,"endTime":1498.163,"body":"has the same GDP as Sweden, I think."},{"startTime":1498.263,"endTime":1499.464,"body":"And so if you're trying"},{"startTime":1499.464,"endTime":1503.301,"body":"to imagine Wal-Mart as a country,"},{"startTime":1503.368,"endTime":1507.706,"body":"the way that it's running its economy,"},{"startTime":1503.368,"endTime":1507.706,"body":"it has a lot of kind of potential"},{"startTime":1507.706,"endTime":1513.545,"body":"for like socialistic economies"},{"startTime":1507.706,"endTime":1513.545,"body":"to actually be executed."},{"startTime":1513.645,"endTime":1517.816,"body":"But I guess they probably wouldn't"},{"startTime":1513.645,"endTime":1517.816,"body":"approve of like unionization and."},{"startTime":1517.883,"endTime":1520.151,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess"},{"startTime":1520.151,"endTime":1525.79,"body":"there's these ideas are all happening"},{"startTime":1520.151,"endTime":1525.79,"body":"in late sixties seventies"},{"startTime":1525.991,"endTime":1530.562,"body":"and did have a lot of influence on things"},{"startTime":1525.991,"endTime":1530.562,"body":"later on."},{"startTime":1530.795,"endTime":1534.966,"body":"It just wasn't necessarily"},{"startTime":1530.795,"endTime":1534.966,"body":"seen as like cybernetics."},{"startTime":1535.166,"endTime":1538.77,"body":"But yeah it's interesting"},{"startTime":1535.166,"endTime":1538.77,"body":"to think about the way that this stuff"},{"startTime":1538.77,"endTime":1543.041,"body":"has kind of bled into areas"},{"startTime":1538.77,"endTime":1543.041,"body":"that we wouldn't expect."},{"startTime":1543.141,"endTime":1547.779,"body":"But yeah,"},{"startTime":1543.141,"endTime":1547.779,"body":"the idea is like cyber fire can even,"},{"startTime":1547.879,"endTime":1551.85,"body":"you know, the progression of, of Cybersyn"},{"startTime":1547.879,"endTime":1551.85,"body":"didn't"},{"startTime":1551.917,"endTime":1557.088,"body":"have a chance to continue and see,"},{"startTime":1551.917,"endTime":1557.088,"body":"see where they would grow"},{"startTime":1557.088,"endTime":1562.961,"body":"because in 1973 and September 10th,"},{"startTime":1557.088,"endTime":1562.961,"body":"one day before the impending coup,"},{"startTime":1562.961,"endTime":1568.333,"body":"that would take his life sensing"},{"startTime":1562.961,"endTime":1568.333,"body":"maybe unrest or further instability."},{"startTime":1568.333,"endTime":1573.405,"body":"And they asked for the Cybersyn upstream"},{"startTime":1568.333,"endTime":1573.405,"body":"to be moved to the presidential palace"},{"startTime":1573.471,"endTime":1576.441,"body":"because that would allow him more access"},{"startTime":1573.471,"endTime":1576.441,"body":"to the technology"},{"startTime":1576.441,"endTime":1579.511,"body":"that he saw as sort of integral"},{"startTime":1576.441,"endTime":1579.511,"body":"to his government's success."},{"startTime":1579.511,"endTime":1584.149,"body":"But the following day,"},{"startTime":1579.511,"endTime":1584.149,"body":"the military took over in a violent coup"},{"startTime":1584.149,"endTime":1587.519,"body":"led by Augusto Pinochet"},{"startTime":1584.149,"endTime":1587.519,"body":"and backed by the CIA."},{"startTime":1587.519,"endTime":1590.522,"body":"And as we now discovering"},{"startTime":1587.519,"endTime":1590.522,"body":"quite a few other countries"},{"startTime":1590.755,"endTime":1594.259,"body":"leading to Allende's death"},{"startTime":1590.755,"endTime":1594.259,"body":"and dropping the country"},{"startTime":1594.259,"endTime":1598.563,"body":"into a dictatorship"},{"startTime":1594.259,"endTime":1598.563,"body":"that would last until 1990."},{"startTime":1598.663,"endTime":1602.033,"body":"And as the presidential palace"},{"startTime":1598.663,"endTime":1602.033,"body":"was being bombed and overtaken"},{"startTime":1602.033,"endTime":1606.204,"body":"royalists, Becker"},{"startTime":1602.033,"endTime":1606.204,"body":"and others raced to the office"},{"startTime":1606.204,"endTime":1608.506,"body":"to save as many files"},{"startTime":1606.204,"endTime":1608.506,"body":"and as much information"},{"startTime":1608.506,"endTime":1610.241,"body":"as they could about Project Sebastian."},{"startTime":1610.241,"endTime":1612.911,"body":"Because they really believed"},{"startTime":1610.241,"endTime":1612.911,"body":"in this project."},{"startTime":1612.911,"endTime":1616.481,"body":"It wasn't just like a work project"},{"startTime":1612.911,"endTime":1616.481,"body":"for them,"},{"startTime":1616.581,"endTime":1621.419,"body":"and they escaped under"},{"startTime":1616.581,"endTime":1621.419,"body":"sort of incredible amounts of danger"},{"startTime":1621.486,"endTime":1624.956,"body":"because Project Sebastian was a largely"},{"startTime":1621.486,"endTime":1624.956,"body":"so secret project to this point."},{"startTime":1624.956,"endTime":1628.56,"body":"When the military found"},{"startTime":1624.956,"endTime":1628.56,"body":"and sort of invaded the upstream,"},{"startTime":1628.627,"endTime":1632.497,"body":"they had no idea what it was and couldn't"},{"startTime":1628.627,"endTime":1632.497,"body":"grasp its importance"},{"startTime":1632.497,"endTime":1634.633,"body":"or how it could be useful for them"},{"startTime":1632.497,"endTime":1634.633,"body":"in any way."},{"startTime":1634.633,"endTime":1635.867,"body":"And they smashed it."},{"startTime":1635.867,"endTime":1639.07,"body":"They smashed it apart,"},{"startTime":1635.867,"endTime":1639.07,"body":"they slashed the computer screens,"},{"startTime":1639.17,"endTime":1641.573,"body":"it was destroyed."},{"startTime":1641.573,"endTime":1645.91,"body":"And at the time staff of beer"},{"startTime":1641.573,"endTime":1645.91,"body":"was in the UK in a meeting and he received"},{"startTime":1645.91,"endTime":1650.482,"body":"a message that the coup had occurred"},{"startTime":1645.91,"endTime":1650.482,"body":"and that Allende, his friend, had died."},{"startTime":1650.548,"endTime":1652.584,"body":"And the project, his his project."},{"startTime":1652.584,"endTime":1655.92,"body":"This project was over"},{"startTime":1652.584,"endTime":1655.92,"body":"and many of his friends"},{"startTime":1655.92,"endTime":1659.958,"body":"and coworkers were murdered"},{"startTime":1655.92,"endTime":1659.958,"body":"or in very unsafe situations."},{"startTime":1660.058,"endTime":1663.762,"body":"At this point,"},{"startTime":1660.058,"endTime":1663.762,"body":"I think that Flores was in prison"},{"startTime":1663.862,"endTime":1668.566,"body":"and later Asperger ended up in the UK"},{"startTime":1668.6,"endTime":1673.038,"body":"and continued his study"},{"startTime":1668.6,"endTime":1673.038,"body":"and work in management, cybernetics"},{"startTime":1673.104,"endTime":1676.675,"body":"and Flores,"},{"startTime":1673.104,"endTime":1676.675,"body":"after being released from prison via"},{"startTime":1676.675,"endTime":1681.813,"body":"an Amnesty International campaign"},{"startTime":1676.675,"endTime":1681.813,"body":"in 1976, ended up studying in California"},{"startTime":1681.813,"endTime":1685.817,"body":"and became a business consultant, later"},{"startTime":1681.813,"endTime":1685.817,"body":"returned to Chile"},{"startTime":1685.817,"endTime":1690.021,"body":"and was a senator for a period of time"},{"startTime":1685.817,"endTime":1690.021,"body":"and stuff would be his son."},{"startTime":1690.021,"endTime":1693.792,"body":"Mentions"},{"startTime":1690.021,"endTime":1693.792,"body":"that the fire most likely had immense"},{"startTime":1693.792,"endTime":1698.363,"body":"survivor's"},{"startTime":1693.792,"endTime":1698.363,"body":"guilt going into the project in 1971."},{"startTime":1698.363,"endTime":1701.9,"body":"He was this like management"},{"startTime":1698.363,"endTime":1701.9,"body":"consultant coming out of it,"},{"startTime":1701.966,"endTime":1706.171,"body":"and in the following years he became this"},{"startTime":1701.966,"endTime":1706.171,"body":"sort of eccentric hippie hermit."},{"startTime":1706.237,"endTime":1709.908,"body":"He lived in a cottage in"},{"startTime":1706.237,"endTime":1709.908,"body":"Wales with no running water,"},{"startTime":1710.008,"endTime":1712.711,"body":"grew this really long beard."},{"startTime":1712.711,"endTime":1717.582,"body":"But, you know, his experience with Project"},{"startTime":1712.711,"endTime":1717.582,"body":"Cybersyn was hugely influential"},{"startTime":1717.615,"endTime":1721.653,"body":"on his future concepts"},{"startTime":1717.615,"endTime":1721.653,"body":"and sort of a general understanding"},{"startTime":1721.653,"endTime":1725.857,"body":"of cybernetics, and it really played"},{"startTime":1721.653,"endTime":1725.857,"body":"a huge role in shaping that field."},{"startTime":1726.091,"endTime":1730.662,"body":"So, you know, it's sad to think of"},{"startTime":1726.091,"endTime":1730.662,"body":"what could have been on so many levels"},{"startTime":1730.895,"endTime":1735.333,"body":"for Chile itself and and for cybernetics."},{"startTime":1735.433,"endTime":1737.736,"body":"But I think it's important to see this"},{"startTime":1737.736,"endTime":1741.873,"body":"not as a sort of a full stop,"},{"startTime":1737.736,"endTime":1741.873,"body":"but as an element of a really strong"},{"startTime":1741.973,"endTime":1746.244,"body":"unit, creative, forward"},{"startTime":1741.973,"endTime":1746.244,"body":"thinking tech history in Chile."},{"startTime":1746.311,"endTime":1748.88,"body":"And it wasn't a case of this"},{"startTime":1746.311,"endTime":1748.88,"body":"kind of UK team"},{"startTime":1748.88,"endTime":1752.217,"body":"or person"},{"startTime":1748.88,"endTime":1752.217,"body":"coming in and kind of taking over."},{"startTime":1752.283,"endTime":1756.521,"body":"But it was really a true"},{"startTime":1752.283,"endTime":1756.521,"body":"collaboration between, you know,"},{"startTime":1756.621,"endTime":1759.29,"body":"government designers,"},{"startTime":1759.29,"endTime":1762.861,"body":"people in tech in Chile,"},{"startTime":1759.29,"endTime":1762.861,"body":"just getting a little bit"},{"startTime":1762.861,"endTime":1767.832,"body":"of massive expertise on this one"},{"startTime":1762.861,"endTime":1767.832,"body":"specific aspect, the cybernetics aspect."},{"startTime":1767.832,"endTime":1770.635,"body":"But they had they had all the other stuff."},{"startTime":1770.635,"endTime":1773.938,"body":"You know,"},{"startTime":1770.635,"endTime":1773.938,"body":"it's like it was this true collaboration."},{"startTime":1774.005,"endTime":1777.642,"body":"And I think that the failure"},{"startTime":1774.005,"endTime":1777.642,"body":"of the projects in this case wasn't"},{"startTime":1777.642,"endTime":1781.646,"body":"like a proven failure of the tech,"},{"startTime":1781.713,"endTime":1784.249,"body":"but it came about through international"},{"startTime":1784.249,"endTime":1788.186,"body":"intervention and geopolitics."},{"startTime":1788.253,"endTime":1792.49,"body":"So I don't think we can look at it"},{"startTime":1788.253,"endTime":1792.49,"body":"and be like, well, it didn't work out."},{"startTime":1792.49,"endTime":1796.661,"body":"I mean, same with like the socialist"},{"startTime":1792.49,"endTime":1796.661,"body":"experiment or whatever, but you can't"},{"startTime":1796.661,"endTime":1801.699,"body":"look at it and say, This is proof"},{"startTime":1796.661,"endTime":1801.699,"body":"that this is this would never work."},{"startTime":1801.8,"endTime":1803.034,"body":"We tried it."},{"startTime":1803.034,"endTime":1806.404,"body":"It doesn't work"},{"startTime":1803.034,"endTime":1806.404,"body":"because there's no way to know."},{"startTime":1806.504,"endTime":1813.211,"body":"It was completely like it was destroyed"},{"startTime":1806.504,"endTime":1813.211,"body":"for sort of geopolitical reasons,"},{"startTime":1813.311,"endTime":1814.946,"body":"and it could have"},{"startTime":1814.946,"endTime":1817.882,"body":"turned into"},{"startTime":1814.946,"endTime":1817.882,"body":"who knows what it could have turned into."},{"startTime":1817.882,"endTime":1820.218,"body":"Yeah, for our future."},{"startTime":1820.218,"endTime":1824.289,"body":"It's so inspiring what happened,"},{"startTime":1820.218,"endTime":1824.289,"body":"because also it was"},{"startTime":1824.389,"endTime":1827.091,"body":"one of the only early socialist"},{"startTime":1827.091,"endTime":1833.164,"body":"cybernetic projects where you had people"},{"startTime":1827.091,"endTime":1833.164,"body":"at the top that were really motivated"},{"startTime":1833.164,"endTime":1836.601,"body":"and actually really cared,"},{"startTime":1833.164,"endTime":1836.601,"body":"especially when you had"},{"startTime":1836.601,"endTime":1839.871,"body":"that moment of Allende."},{"startTime":1839.871,"endTime":1844.242,"body":"Looking at the image that Stafford Behar"},{"startTime":1839.871,"endTime":1844.242,"body":"was drawing"},{"startTime":1844.242,"endTime":1848.479,"body":"about the kind of symbiote nature"},{"startTime":1844.242,"endTime":1848.479,"body":"of like the servers, right."},{"startTime":1848.479,"endTime":1849.981,"body":"And the screens"},{"startTime":1849.981,"endTime":1854.552,"body":"and there was this this arrow that would"},{"startTime":1849.981,"endTime":1854.552,"body":"that kept going back and forth of the"},{"startTime":1854.619,"endTime":1859.691,"body":"what's it called, the circular model"},{"startTime":1854.619,"endTime":1859.691,"body":"or recursive model working on models."},{"startTime":1859.791,"endTime":1865.129,"body":"And then he pointed to that relationship"},{"startTime":1859.791,"endTime":1865.129,"body":"and said, oh, the people as in like"},{"startTime":1865.129,"endTime":1870.735,"body":"the people, the people's relationship"},{"startTime":1865.129,"endTime":1870.735,"body":"to the government is this symbiotic thing."},{"startTime":1870.802,"endTime":1875.073,"body":"And you had this network"},{"startTime":1870.802,"endTime":1875.073,"body":"that represented that in this moment."},{"startTime":1875.073,"endTime":1877.175,"body":"I think that really spoke true"},{"startTime":1877.175,"endTime":1880.979,"body":"to how he felt about this project"},{"startTime":1877.175,"endTime":1880.979,"body":"and how inspirational it was to him."},{"startTime":1880.979,"endTime":1882.847,"body":"And that's really special."},{"startTime":1882.847,"endTime":1886.951,"body":"You don't really usually have people"},{"startTime":1882.847,"endTime":1886.951,"body":"at the top that really care."},{"startTime":1887.051,"endTime":1887.452,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1887.452,"endTime":1892.056,"body":"And I think that the other special thing"},{"startTime":1887.452,"endTime":1892.056,"body":"about it was that Allende was a doctor."},{"startTime":1892.156,"endTime":1895.76,"body":"And this model is really based on"},{"startTime":1895.827,"endTime":1899.931,"body":"like the human body"},{"startTime":1895.827,"endTime":1899.931,"body":"and how things move throughout,"},{"startTime":1899.931,"endTime":1904.035,"body":"how systems and networks"},{"startTime":1899.931,"endTime":1904.035,"body":"move throughout the body. And"},{"startTime":1904.102,"endTime":1907.105,"body":"that in"},{"startTime":1904.102,"endTime":1907.105,"body":"that sort of just that initial discussion"},{"startTime":1907.238,"endTime":1909.54,"body":"with Stafford Behar and Allende,"},{"startTime":1909.54,"endTime":1914.178,"body":"he was impressed that Allende could really"},{"startTime":1914.245,"endTime":1917.181,"body":"understand that the way that this"},{"startTime":1917.181,"endTime":1921.286,"body":"recursive model works,"},{"startTime":1917.181,"endTime":1921.286,"body":"because he had a really"},{"startTime":1921.486,"endTime":1924.489,"body":"a real understanding"},{"startTime":1921.486,"endTime":1924.489,"body":"of of how the human body works."},{"startTime":1924.622,"endTime":1926.991,"body":"That's beautiful."},{"startTime":1926.991,"endTime":1931.329,"body":"So we'll have some links"},{"startTime":1926.991,"endTime":1931.329,"body":"in the show notes to my research"},{"startTime":1931.329,"endTime":1935.266,"body":"and some further information to check out"},{"startTime":1931.329,"endTime":1935.266,"body":"if you're interested."},{"startTime":1935.5,"endTime":1938.369,"body":"My project is on external pages"},{"startTime":1938.369,"endTime":1941.005,"body":"dot com, though it's quite"},{"startTime":1941.005,"endTime":1942.807,"body":"artistic and speculative."},{"startTime":1942.807,"endTime":1946.678,"body":"And if you want more information,"},{"startTime":1946.744,"endTime":1949.914,"body":"Peter Medina's book is really Good"},{"startTime":1946.744,"endTime":1949.914,"body":"Cybernetic Revolutionaries,"},{"startTime":1949.914,"endTime":1953.084,"body":"and there's also a Chilean research"},{"startTime":1953.084,"endTime":1957.689,"body":"project called the Counterculture Room,"},{"startTime":1953.084,"endTime":1957.689,"body":"and they do a lot of work"},{"startTime":1957.689,"endTime":1962.193,"body":"to document and capture this history"},{"startTime":1957.689,"endTime":1962.193,"body":"through interviews in Spanish."},{"startTime":1962.193,"endTime":1968.733,"body":"Some of them are on YouTube and they did"},{"startTime":1962.193,"endTime":1968.733,"body":"a recreation of the Upstream as well."},{"startTime":1968.8,"endTime":1969.934,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":1969.934,"endTime":1973.104,"body":"I also just looked up the Walmart"},{"startTime":1969.934,"endTime":1973.104,"body":"reference"},{"startTime":1973.137,"endTime":1977.141,"body":"and it's called the People's"},{"startTime":1973.137,"endTime":1977.141,"body":"Republic of Wal-Mart."},{"startTime":1977.275,"endTime":1978.509,"body":"Yeah, it's on Verso."},{"startTime":1978.509,"endTime":1979.944,"body":"If people want to check that out."},{"startTime":1979.944,"endTime":1983.181,"body":"It looks pretty interesting. Yes."},{"startTime":1983.247,"endTime":1983.715,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1983.715,"endTime":1986.15,"body":"Well, we hope you enjoyed this episode."},{"startTime":1986.15,"endTime":1991.022,"body":"It's been fun to have an excuse"},{"startTime":1986.15,"endTime":1991.022,"body":"to delve into this research."},{"startTime":1991.022,"endTime":1994.792,"body":"Again, next episode,"},{"startTime":1991.022,"endTime":1994.792,"body":"What what is our topic?"},{"startTime":1994.792,"endTime":1999.597,"body":"And next, we're talking about the Soviet"},{"startTime":1999.664,"endTime":2004.669,"body":"distributed network called OG,"},{"startTime":1999.664,"endTime":2004.669,"body":"which was also being developed"},{"startTime":2004.669,"endTime":2009.407,"body":"in the seventies around the same time"},{"startTime":2004.669,"endTime":2009.407,"body":"a little bit later."},{"startTime":2009.474,"endTime":2013.811,"body":"But yeah, we'll also look at the trials"},{"startTime":2009.474,"endTime":2013.811,"body":"and tribulations of that,"},{"startTime":2013.878,"endTime":2019.55,"body":"the failures and the successes,"},{"startTime":2013.878,"endTime":2019.55,"body":"more general failures, successes."},{"startTime":2019.617,"endTime":2022.286,"body":"Some some things came out of it anyway,"},{"startTime":2022.286,"endTime":2025.523,"body":"and I'm excited about that one a lot."},{"startTime":2025.59,"endTime":2027.992,"body":"Great. And looking forward to it."},{"startTime":2027.992,"endTime":2031.362,"body":"Well,"},{"startTime":2027.992,"endTime":2031.362,"body":"thank you everyone for listening where"},{"startTime":2031.629,"endTime":2035.8,"body":"we're excited to start this journey,"},{"startTime":2031.629,"endTime":2035.8,"body":"this research journey."},{"startTime":2035.867,"endTime":2039.804,"body":"And yeah,"},{"startTime":2035.867,"endTime":2039.804,"body":"I can't believe we're doing this."},{"startTime":2039.904,"endTime":2042.64,"body":"This is our first episode"},{"startTime":2039.904,"endTime":2042.64,"body":"that's so exciting."},{"startTime":2042.64,"endTime":2045.643,"body":"I feel like we should have a little cake"},{"startTime":2042.64,"endTime":2045.643,"body":"or something."},{"startTime":2045.676,"endTime":2048.112,"body":"I would like some cake"},{"startTime":2048.179,"endTime":2050.081,"body":"if you wish to."},{"startTime":2050.081,"endTime":2053.084,"body":"What do you say your podcast"},{"startTime":2050.081,"endTime":2053.084,"body":"like and subscribe?"},{"startTime":2053.117,"endTime":2055.42,"body":"Write a writer review."},{"startTime":2055.42,"endTime":2056.854,"body":"That would be excellent."},{"startTime":2056.854,"endTime":2058.022,"body":"Email us."},{"startTime":2058.022,"endTime":2063.061,"body":"Email us our friend"},{"startTime":2058.022,"endTime":2063.061,"body":"the computer at gmail dot com exac"},{"startTime":2063.061,"endTime":2066.731,"body":"we one word Yes,"},{"startTime":2066.798,"endTime":2068.366,"body":"it's a long name."},{"startTime":2068.366,"endTime":2070.334,"body":"All right. We will."},{"startTime":2070.334,"endTime":2073.337,"body":"We'll be back with you soon. Yes."},{"startTime":2073.504,"endTime":2075.773,"body":"Thank you for listening. Right."}]}