Marilyn, JFK, RFK, & Dorothy Kilgalen: the Connections Famed Author Mark Shaw Uncovered

Discover the hidden connections linking the deaths of Marilyn Monroe, Dorothy Kilgallen, JFK, and RFK with investigative author Mark Shaw, the guest behind our most-listened episode of all time.

Mark Shaw, former criminal defense attorney and author of more than 30 books (including the bestselling The Reporter Who Knew Too Much), has spent decades challenging official narratives around some of America’s most controversial deaths. In this conversation, he connects the dots between Marilyn Monroe’s enigmatic death, Dorothy Kilgallen’s fearless investigation into the JFK assassination, and the larger web of power, organized crime, and possible cover-ups that still haunt history.

Shaw shares how his own journey from the courtroom to the typewriter was shaped by curiosity, serendipity, and a refusal to accept incomplete stories — the same traits that defined Kilgallen herself. Together we examine Joe Kennedy’s alleged mafia ties, the risks faced by those who dig too deep, and why these cases continue to demand closer scrutiny.

This episode remains our most popular for a reason. It asks the questions many prefer left unanswered — and invites you to stop, think, and look again at the stories we thought we already knew.

Learn more about Mark Shaw and his dozens of best-sellers, including his famed book The Reporter Who Knew Too Much, at https://markshawbooks.com/

Learn more about Cynthia and her work at www.CynthiaLElliott.com or www.SoulTechFoundation.org. 

Sign up for her free weekly substack at www.SoulTechNewsletter.com or her author website www.CynthiaLElliott.com.

Transcript

Welcome And Who Mark Shaw Is

SPEAKER_02 0:51

I am honored and delighted to be joined by investigative journalist and author Extraordinaire Mark Shaw, who I have uh incredible respect for. Mark, thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

You bet you're welcome. I was fortunate enough to catch your mini interviews over the years uh at the Commonwealth Club and on different uh news shows and podcasts, and have been fascinated by your work. So I would absolutely love it if you could take our audience through sort of the timeline of how you connected these, uh the the your work uh and the books that you actually were able to write.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Well, I think sometimes uh I I feel like I've been an accidental author because I certainly would have never planned to do this. Um you know, I uh barely got through Purdue University in six years. Um I uh uh lost my first job, got fired after about a month. Uh by the grace of God, I got into uh law school. I wasn't a very good student there. Uh I ended up being a criminal defense lawyer handling mostly high-profile uh murder cases. Uh after four or five years of that, um I I figured I was gonna be an alcoholic or a drug addict if I kept going with that uh area of interest because there's no winners there. The the victims, obviously, and even the people perpetrators, their life is mostly over. So I finally decided against that. I had gotten a break because I tried a criminal case with uh the famed lawyer F. Lee Bailey. And um uh through uh Lee, uh I was able then to uh use my knowledge uh about criminal trials and so on and so forth, uh to uh be asked by uh Good Morning America to cover uh trials. Uh the first was Claudie Langer and Aspen, that was uh Andy Williams' uh uh wife, uh, who accidentally supposedly shot her, her lover. And then uh after that huge story, huge story. Yeah. Then after that, uh I ended up uh working on the OJ case. I worked on the Mike Tyson trial, I worked on the Kobe Bryant case. That that part of me kind of happened serendipitously because of all those things that uh I'd done before. But I had absolutely no uh interest in writing any books of any kind. I never had any training whatsoever. But when I covered the Mike Tyson trial and sat there in the front row and watched him have the worst uh defense lawyer I'd ever seen, uh, there was very little evidence against uh Mike. And uh it upset me so much that I decided to write a book about it, and that became uh Down for the Count, which was published uh, let's see, it'd be 1992, so that's 20, 31 years ago, 32 years ago now. And uh I really enjoyed the research for that book and uh discovered that uh while I didn't have any uh writing classes or the Iowa Workshop or anything like that, um, I started kind of writing, uh learning how to write by how I talk to juries. Uh in fact, today it's amazing because uh most people and I I've heard so many people around the world uh and

From Defense Lawyer To Author

SPEAKER_01 4:08

through my uh books and through uh these presentations that are up on uh YouTube, um your books are easily read. Well, of course they are, because I'm a I'm from a small town in Indiana, I don't have a large vocabulary, but I basically talk to the reader. And uh just like I did, I talked to juries. So uh I finished a Tyson uh book and then I got interested in in doing more books. I start out with a few uh sports books and things. But the real link to uh this whole array of uh books, six books now that touch on the JFK assassination and uh this miracle woman, uh Dorothy Kilgallen, uh, came about again a little bit by accident, although I don't believe in those things. I'm very spiritual, and so I believe everything's meant to happen. In the 1980s, I worked for a an attorney in, I work with an attorney in San Francisco named Melvin Bellai, very famous lawyer, represented the uh Rolling Stones and Errol Flynn and Tammy Faye Baker and all of these uh uh, you know, big shot clients that he had. And um I worked in his building there in San Francisco and uh started then thinking about uh perhaps writing a biography of him. So uh I did some research and everything and decided to write one because he had written two autobiographies and they conflicted. That's his own story in a book.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

There were different versions in there. So I started in to work on uh Mr. Bell Eye's work, and uh that took me about a year. I think that goes back to almost 2007, someplace in there. And um, that book became Melvin Belleye, King of the Courtroom, and that darn book did pretty well, as well as uh Down for the Cowt had. And uh I was really uh surprised though when I learned more about his affiliations with the mafia. And uh anytime you're a historian or researcher or investigative or reporter, whatever, you get these clues that come along, you know that. And and then you can either let them go or you follow up on them. And I think I have one uh habit that is uh very similar to Dorothy Kilgallen that we'll talked about, and that's curiosity.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Uh I don't care what it is. Uh I I I, for instance, I I think we've gotten something like five, six thousand emails in the last few years. I answer every one of them because I never know when there's going to be a tip from a reader or somebody who's watched uh a presentation or something, and so many times so many times um uh that has that has enabled me to find new evidence as I was going forward. So I worked on Belleye's book, and then I was so surprised because uh I learned that he became Jack Ruby's attorney. Jack Ruby, the the the one who shot the Harvey Oswald.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

So you didn't know that he had been Jack Ruby's uh attorney in the game.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

I may have back then, but uh that was in the 80s, but I did not. And I didn't know his most famous client that he had was Mickey Cohen, who was a Los Angeles gangster. And um I started thinking about, you know, the because I when I was talking to people about Belleye and his representing Ruby, I thought, you know, maybe I'll look more into the JFK assassination, which I had never done. I never was very interested in it at all. And so um I did that, and that led me to go back to the 1960 election, uh, where I learned that um, you know, uh what most people know today, and it's pretty, it's pretty well uh chronicled, that Joe Kennedy knew they were going to lose that election. Uh, the JFK was going to lose unless they won the states of Illinois and West Virginia. And so uh Joe, who had his mafia connections as well, um through Frank Sinatra, got in touch with uh some of the mafia guys named Sam Giancana in Chicago and Carlos Marcel in New Orleans and all of them. And through their support and their money and their uh basically telling people uh vote as many times as you can.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Paying them to vote, they won those two states.

unknown 8:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Chicago doesn't surprise me at all. I was a little surprised about the other one, but it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

The corruption, you know, in Chicago and all that. So I learned though that Joe Kennedy had made what I call uh in the in the book that I wrote about that, the poison patriarch, a deal with the devil. Because he informed those uh mafioso that listen, you help us win the uh election, we'll leave you alone when we get in the White House. Well, Joe basically just double-crossed them because the first thing that they did in the high I don't speculate, I have primary source witnesses, and I had one who was right there the morning at breakfast when Joe Kennedy ordered JFK to appoint Bobby Kennedy attorney general. And anybody who knows anything about Bobby knows he hated the mafia. The McClellan hearings, he made fun of those guys and all this. And so the first thing that he did was go ahead and go after GNC for tax evasion and also Carlos Marcelo, he deported him to uh Guatemala. And uh, you know, I learned when I was uh working with uh Good Morning America and covering trials for them that you can't mess around with those guys. I'll just tell you a quick story. Uh when I was reporting on uh reporting for them, they asked me to go talk to the lawyer for a uh Philadelphia gangster, and he was gonna talk to us. Well, you know, you're not supposed to do that. Uh the code is silence and everything. But yeah, I interviewed this guy, I can't remember what his name is, and he said some things to me on the air that we couldn't believe about them getting into you know Atlantic City and things like that. So they played that the next morning on GMA, and it was a huge hit. And so the producer called me in Philadelphia and said, Mark, stay there and see if that guy will talk to you again. So I called him his at his office. Uh, some uh woman answered, and uh I said, is Mr. Such and such there? And she said, uh uh uh and and she kind of stumbled, and then she came back and I could tell she was crying. And I said, Are you okay? And she said, Well, Mr. Shaw, I guess you don't know. Uh, when my boss started his car this morning, it blew up.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

Oh my, you just gave me chill bumps all over my entire life.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Gave me chill bumps, and I will tell you, I got out of Philadelphia as quickly as possible.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

I bet you did. They remember, they remember everything.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

You can't mess around with those guys. They're they have their own code of rules and things like that, and revenge is very much a part of that. So I wrote the poison patriarch, and that was going to be it. But then during the Belleye uh research, one of his friends said, you know, uh Mel knew Dorothy Kilgallen. And the only thing I could say to him was, You wait, wait a minute, she was on What's My Line? Was he on that show? This guy said, Mark, you are a dumbhead. You don't know anything

Mafia Clues And The JFK Trail

SPEAKER_01 11:09

about her. Uh she was uh yeah, on What's My Line and What's by Telling You 10 million people every Sunday night. She was syndicated, her newspaper column was syndicated to 200 newspapers across the country. She had a radio show to listen to a million people a day. She was this, she was that. She was a big deal. She's one of the reasons I went into communications. Yeah, and so, you know, uh, you don't know anything about her at all. Well, that really stirred interest in me. And then he also said something which I couldn't get out of my mind, and that was, you know, when Dorothy Kilgallen died, Mel Bellai said to me, Well, they've killed Dorothy. Now they'll go after Jack Ruby.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

So Melvin Bellai said that to you.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

To his friend. To his friend, I thought, what, what, what, wait a minute. So I started my research into Dorothy Kilgallen, and I was amazed to find out all of those uh um important things about her and the career that she had. You know, uh, we're working on a possible film about Dorothy, and in there we said before there was uh media icons like uh Oprah and Diane Walters and and uh uh Barbara Walters and and some of those, there was Dorothy Kilgallen. And that's true. The New York Post called her the most powerful female voice in America.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

She was a big I don't think people today really understand that back then there were very few media, and someone like her was somebody that everyone heard and read and listened to every single day. Millions and millions of people all over the the country uh would hear that one voice. That's right. Did you fall in love with her when you first started researching her?

SPEAKER_01 12:44

I'm just curious. Well, not not not to begin with, except that I started finding all of this information about her in many of the most peculiar places. And it finally dawned on me that uh, you know, what well, let me go, let me wait on that. Okay, so I start to look into her and I find out what she's doing and everything else. And uh yeah, she covered the Charles Lindbergh baby kidnapping case. She covered the Dr. Sam Shepherd case, which became the fugitive movie. Uh, she was the real thing. Uh she she interviewed, uh, she was at Queen Elizabeth's coronation. She got a Pulitzer nomination for it. Uh, just on and on and on. Ernest Hemingway said she was the greatest female writer in America. Wow. Uh, you know, all these different things about her. And then I landed on the fact that, yes, she was uh involved somehow or another in the JFK assassination. And I started to do my research there. And it seemed like when the moment that I started that, and I found out that she was killed under mysterious circumstances, died under circumsterious circumstances, I guess we should say right now, in 1965, uh, that um, you know, uh there was something about that that made me wonder because I wasn't able to find out an awful lot of information about Dorothy. Yes, the reruns of White's My Line were on the internet at YouTube and everything, but she kind of just disappeared from the face of the earth. Yeah, she did. And uh, so I thought, wait a minute, I kind of had this feeling. I've got her picture up here right on my wall, and I really felt like that Dorothy decided, for whatever reason, and I see this as an honor, that I that she won me to write about her. So uh sometimes people think I'm crazy that way, but I don't believe that. And all the way through all of this journey you're gonna hear about, Dorothy has been right there as my spiritual guide. There's no other reason for it. There's there's no way you can figure all that out without that being the case. So I looked into the JFK assassination. I found out she went to Dallas. I found out that she uh was uh went to the Jack Ruby trial. She was at Daly Plaza's Jack Ruby trial. She was the only one to interview Ruby out of 400 reporters. And what he told her then gave her a good idea of what really happened. Uh she just was on the job. And if you know any, if people know anything about Dorothy Kilgallen, as many of her colleagues said, including those on What's My Line, when Dorothy went after a story, I mean, she went in there headfirst and she she would not let go, no matter what. And the reason that is so interesting, uh, Cynthia, is that she um she got involved in the JFK assassination because it was personal. Because what I found out is that, you know, Dorothy had Dorothy was amazing. She had all these careers and all the time was a mother of three. She overcame all of these gender discrimination, sexual discrimination to try to get ahead. It was a man's world back then. But what I found out is that of the three kids, her youngest son Carrie was the one that she loved the most. And she was ended up taking him to the White House. And JFK, who had been to parties at Dorothy's home and they were good friends and everything, um, came into the library and he made a big fuss over little Carrie. He looked at some letters he brought from the third grade class and and this kind of thing, and uh gave him a PT 109 pin and all that. So when JFK died, it was really personal uh for Dorothy. Uh when she when she found out that JFK died, and then she saw Jack Ruby, Shootley, Harvey, Oswald, boy, she was on the job. And that's why uh everything that she did then with her um really courage of uh of going against the wind, of of going against what uh J. Edgar Hoover was talking about with the Oswald alone theory and all that. That was all uh, you know, in fact, uh one column she wrote after JFK died, and then I'll stop and let you, I'm sure you've got a question or two. Um, she wrote, uh, what I remember is a tall man stooping over a little boy, praising him for the letters that he brought from the third grade class, including his. This is the man who was killed in Dallas. And boy, when I when I read that column of hers, I thought, boy, I'm on the right track here. Uh, I'm I I wasn't gonna go look into the JFK assassination, but now I'm going to, and fortunately, that book, The Reporter Who Knew Too Much, became a bestseller. Um, and people got found out about Dorothy Kilgallen. In some ways, I'll pat myself on the back. I kind of brought her back to life, but she wanted me to do that. And so I continually, even now, try to do what I can to uh to let as many people in the world know uh uh about Dorothy. And I'm pleased to say the uh presentations and interviews that I've done that are up on uh um on YouTube, there's now 12 million views. It's just mind-boggling to me. This guy from a little town in Indiana who barely got through college could do this, but it's because Dorothy, in my opinion, wanted me to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

She was lost to history. You know, I remember her when I was young because reruns were a big thing, and I remember really falling in love with her the way that she behaved, her energy, the way that she showed up was really powerful. And it was it impressed the men in the room, which was unusual back then. And she owned the space that she was in. Her intelligence just was incredible. Um, and when I I found What's My Line again? And I started well, I watched all the episodes for her, and then I went to look her up, and I was speechless when I realized that not only had she been forgotten by history, but that she had passed away in such a shocking way, murdered, assassinated,

Dorothy Kilgallen’s Hidden Power

SPEAKER_02 18:30

or however we want to label it. And that's how I came across your book. And I just was so impressed with your research. So, just for people listening, really quick, and I'm gonna bring up Marilyn Monroe just for a second, and we can touch on her later. But Marilyn Monroe passes away in '62, '63.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Yeah, you got Dorothy or Marilyn in 62, JFK in 63, and uh, and um uh Dorothy in 65. In fact, that became the next book after I I I wrote Denial of Justice because I found the Ruby trial transcripts after the reporter knew too much. And then people all over the world asked me if there was a connection between Marilyn, JFK, and Dorothy's death, and that became collateral damage, which was the next book. And uh yes, uh Dorothy uh looked into that uh that particular situation. You know, going back to what you said about her, uh, how many people uh through the years have said, Boy, I wish we had journalists like Dorothy Kilgallen today, a woman of integrity? Because uh she's she's a perfect subject for your show. Because um, you know, she she didn't look for the sensational headlines and then find the evidence to go with that somewhere or another. She went out and got the facts. She was trusted. My favorite uh photo of hers is up on the Dorothy Kilgallen Story.org. The Dorothy Kilgallen Story.org. She's standing in the middle of the courtroom at the Dr. Sam Shepherd case, and all the reporters are gathered around her in admiration. That really says it right there uh in pictures, uh, because they had that admiration for her. She was a woman of integrity, and uh, and and it's it's because she was seen that way that she was able to get uh the evidence that she did and the and the stories that she did uh based on that reputation.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

So she um so Marilyn passes away mysteriously, which is a whole other episode, and then JFK is assassinated, and Dorothy uh and and then uh Jack Ruby kills Oswald. The powers that be want it to be Oswald alone. Um Dorothy really gets hung up on that because she feels like something smells, her her reporter juices are just flying, and she ends up getting the chance to interview Jack Ruby privately, which is something no one got the chance to do. And uh, and that was sort of the thread there. Okay, just for the for the listeners who who might not be as familiar, uh please continue.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

I'm a I'm a I'm breathless. That's all right, and then you know, we can take it a bit further uh as to how my research works. So uh, yes, and and whatever Jack Ruby told her, uh your your listeners or what uh viewers are gonna wonder, well, Mark, what did he tell her? And I'll explain in just a little bit why we don't know. But what happened is that she just took that, you know, that in that information he gave her, the first place she went, you know, there's all last in November I wanted to throw up, there's all of these crazy theories out there in terms of the JFK assassination, but Dorothy had it right. She looked as I did when I was a criminal defense lawyer at motive. And who had the greatest motive to have gotten rid of uh of uh of JFK? Well, you would think, in in this is what my research showed, that uh, hey, first thing is that Marcello uh they wanted to revenge uh his being sent to Guatemala, and they wanted to kill RFK, Bobby. But if they kill Bobby, then Jack Kennedy and the government will come after them with everything they have. So if you kill Jack Kennedy, then Bobby Kennedy is powerless. And that's exactly what happened. And that's what Dorothy figured out. She went to New Orleans, she interviewed people who knew Carlos Marcello, who was the mafia don that uh Bobby had gone after. And uh she put all the the information together and everything, and then you know, I I stopped at that particular point. So it's interesting though, because most of most of the things I've done in my life, I'm an oddball and I do things uh in different ways. Uh uh and so I do the mass backwards at times. Well, you would think that you would research Marilyn, JFK, Dorothy. Well, I researched JFK, I Dorothy, JFK, Marilyn. And the reason I did is because I I wasn't going to look into that. I didn't know that there was any a connection there. But the first thing that I found, and we can talk about as much as you want to, but the first thing I found was a photograph of Marilyn and Dorothy together on a set of a movie in LA. And then, you know, uh I I I you know, this Marilyn suicide thing had always bothered me. It didn't make much sense. Never did. But I found a column that Dorothy wrote uh one day before uh Marilyn died, uh, that she was on the upswing. Um MM has Hollywood talking again. She's got Broadway offers. She's got a new man in her life that's a bigger name than Joe DiMaggio, the baseball player, all this kind of stuff. And I thought to myself, that woman committed suicide? That doesn't make any sense. No. And so I took that as far as I could to show that there, just as in uh Dorothy's death, as we'll talk about, there was no real investigation. But that, you know, there were really uh complicated situations there because Marilyn had uh had a brief love affair with John Kennedy and he dumped her. And then she was in love with uh Bobby Kennedy just before she died in August of 62. And uh despite what Bobby claimed, he was in LA, um, he was in love with her. I found a CIA document that showed they were in a torrid love affair and all of that, and I was able to prove through my evidence that Bobby was complicit in Marilyn's death. And uh if you want to know what Dorothy thought of that, um I was able to find the uh daughter of uh uh Dorothy's uh butler. Uh interviewed her, my wife and I in New York City and got a lot of information from her about Dorothy and the assassination and everything else. But she said that when uh after Marilyn died, um uh Dorothy uh told uh her father, the butler, it's the Kennedys. So she knew exactly what was going on, all that. So I was done again. I was gonna quit then with that. But I couldn't get it out of my mind that uh Dorothy Kilgallen, after she left New Orleans and went back to uh to um uh New York, she made the same mistake that Marilyn Monroe had done because the CIA document said that Marilyn was going to go to the media with the love affairs, with matters of national security, all these other kinds of things about the Kennedys. And of course, they couldn't let that happen. Yeah. And I was able to find uh accounts of exactly how Marilyn died, and people can look at that in collateral damage. But with Dorothy, she was a blabber of mouth too. She went back to New York City. I'm gonna solve the JFK assassination. I know who killed JFK and I'll prove it. Um, I've got all the information I need and all this other kind of stuff. And unfortunately, that information got back to those people who had orchestrated the JFK assassination, Marcello and his group, and also J. Edgar Hoover, who had covered it up uh with the Warren

Jack Ruby And A Dangerous Interview

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Commission and whatever. And it was only a matter of time because Dorothy now had a target on her back. She was found dead in her apartment on November 8, 1965. Um uh in what anybody with a first with any brain would say is a uh death scene.

SPEAKER_02 25:51

Oh, it was the when I read it, Mark, I was like, what?

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Her makeup uh wasn't wearing the clothes she normally wears to bed, all of that kind of thing. Um, and and yet they called it uh um uh an overdose of drugs and alcohol circumstances undetermined. I've I've proven recently that that uh certainly wasn't the case in in the new books, uh including Fighting for Justice, the latest one. So also during that time then, Dorothy was able to um get more evidence about what happened with the JFK assassination. Uh it's amazing to me, and I have no hesitation in saying that Dorothy sends these people to me because last year, in the middle of the year, I got a call, I got an email from a guy named Morris Wolfe. Uh and he said, Mr. Shaw, I just watched your uh presentation at the Allen Public Library in Dallas. He said, I noticed it has 7 million views, but when I watched it, uh I noticed the name of Dorothy Kilgallen, and I knew her. And of course, my ears perk up because so many people are dead now, as you know. And so uh I emailed him and he and I had a long discussion, and he, and I want to just make this quick because there's more things I know you want to talk about, but he said, yes, I knew her in uh in uh uh the 1960s, uh in 63 and 64. And uh the reason that I did is because I was a I I first worked for Bobby Kennedy and Jack Kennedy. Bobby Kennedy when he was attorney general and JFK when he was the president. I was the legislative, I was the assistant to Bobby Kennedy, helped him write the Civil Rights Act. I knew Bobby really well, and then I got to know Jack Kennedy as well. I used to take messages between the two brothers from the Attorney General's office to the White House because they didn't want to uh use the telephone. They thought that J. Edgar Hoover was tapping their phones and all of that. So he gives me all this inside information about that. And he said, then I became the legislative assistant to a Warren Commission member named Senator John Sherman Cooper from Kentucky. And I thought, oh my gosh, he said, yes. And I used to go with Senator Cooper to the hearings. Nobody has ever gotten inside the Warren Commission like that, where they have a reputable guy, a Yale lawyer, credentials, the best they could be. And so he started telling me about Senator Cooper and his reservations about what was going on with the Warren Commission. Uh they know about uh the mob and Jack Ruby uh and Oswald and Ruby and and uh uh JFK's assassination, but they won't do anything with it. Um uh um J. Edgar Hoover is ramroding uh the assassination, uh the assassination investigation into Oswald alone. Yeah, I'm fed up with everything uh that's going on. I think I'll go ahead and resign. I mean, he had all of these things that Cooper told him and all of that. And then he went to the hearings and he saw what was going on. They were the witnesses were not interviewed by the members of the commission. Uh they were interviewed mostly by the staff. So he gives me all this information, and then I'm waiting, I'm waiting. How do you know Dorothy Kilgallen? And he said, Well, yes, Mr. Shaw, she was a good friend of Senator John Sherman Cooper's as well. And she was invited to parties at his home in Georgetown at 29th and N Street. And of course, what I do and what you do, I know is you check the facts. Uh and so I immediately after we talked went and looked and see what where he lived. And by golly, old John Sherman Cooper lived at 29th and N Street. He said, I sat right with her at the dinner table. And uh she was even an investigative reporter at the dinner table between having a Caesar salad and everything, she was asking me all these questions about Senator Cooper and all that kind of thing. He called her a bright light bulb. And he said, I was just fascinated with Dorothy and all of that. So then that that really triggered something in my mind as to a question that I had, because not only did Dorothy uh write all the columns about uh the JFK assassination, the Oswald file must not close. I mean, she really went against the grain, uh, was courageous in doing that because she believed that that Oswald along theory was crazy and it didn't make any sense whatsoever. But not only did she do that, but all at once Dorothy Kilgallen ended up with Jack Ruby's testimony before the Warren Commission, the secret testimony. And I had already found that out in in previous books and and had it in uh uh the reporter did too much and denial of justice and collateral damage. But I I'd never been able to substantiate how she got that information. Was able to tell me that John Sherman Cooper gave it to her.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Yeah. And that he also did that.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

That blew my mind.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

When you shared that recently, I was like, wow.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

It blew my mind too, I'll tell you. And so um, you know, I was able to find out that she knew about the corruption there, that there was supposed to be a dissent in the final uh report that Cooper and Senator Richard Russell in Georgia demanded that happen. But not one bit of a chance. It wasn't it in the final report, not in the report, but they distorted any evidence of there ever even going to be uh a dissent at all. So all of that really led me to uh believe that, especially in and one thing, uh the reason I wanted to show you this book is because again, you can check out things these days. And so this this uh the cover of Fighting for Justice, which is the latest book, and there's a couple presentations up on YouTube about it, uh, you'll see that here is uh J. Edgar Hoover, Marilyn, Dorothy, Bobby Kennedy, and then the members of the Warren Commission. So uh Morris Wolfe says to me, Mark, if you want to see how disgusted John Sherman Cooper was with the uh with the the committee report. This is when they gave LBJ the report. Look over here and you will see that John Sherman Cooper is the second one, and he's hiding behind Hale Boggs. He's so disgusted, he doesn't want anything to do with it. Richard Russell is over here, and he looks like he wants to throw up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

So they were they were disgusted.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

That kind of proof is, I think, what's given me my credibility. Am I right about all this? Well, uh, I don't have to be right about it because I think Dorothy is. Uh, what's that uh saying? Um Oakham's uh Oakham's razor, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

Razor. The most obvious answer is usually.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

That's the theory, that's the theory of Dorothy Kilgallen. Yeah. That just, you know, common sense make it common sense works here because you've got what Bobby Kennedy did with the mafia guys, and the mafia guys got to strike back, and so they set up the whole thing with JFK's assassination. And then because they weren't uh because uh J. Edgar Hoover doesn't want to get into any of that, he doesn't want to investigate um uh you know Marcello or Gian Conner, anybody doesn't want to investigate Bobby Kennedy's complicit complicity in Marilyn's death. The CIA, they have a member on the CIA of the CIA, uh Alan Dillis, on the commission. They don't want to get into the CIA. All he wants is the Oswald alone conclusion. Yeah, and that's what Dorothy figured out. And so she did have it all figured out, but nobody

Marilyn Monroe And Silenced Secrets

SPEAKER_01 33:04

would listen to her back then. Yeah, a lot of people don't mind my saying so, but I think one of the reasons is because she was a woman. Oh, absolutely. You know, CBS went out at the time and did this two-part series with their heavy guns, Dan Rather, Cronkite, Mike Wallace, all of them. You know what they came up with? Oswald alone.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

She was never never interviewed by the Warren Commission. She was never interviewed by CV, she was never interviewed by anybody because they didn't believe that this gossip columnist and quiz show um contestant uh could or quiz quiz show uh panelists uh knew what she was talking about, and that's why they missed really what happened with the assassination.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Yeah, uh I just that that whole series of events, when you pieced it together, and I think for listeners that to really appreciate and understand your work, you know, you you approached this almost by accident, kind of kept falling into these incredible developments. And when people started to hear about the the respectable way in which you were going after the truth and showing real evidence uh that you could discover that apparently uh all these other people couldn't discover, um uh you started to to over the years not only build a collection of incredible books that proved so many interesting aspects of all of these um assassinations and murders, um, but but as you moved along, you had all these these amazing experiences, which is why I think when we talk about the spiritual side of that and Dorothy being there saying, you know, hey, I'm not gonna be forgotten by history, and neither is what happened. You've had all these incredible people. When you shared that story about what was his name again, the Cooper's assistant, Marshall?

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Um Morris Wolfe. Morris Wolf Wolf was the assistant, yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

Yeah, when you shared that detail about him and and the Warren Commission, like to me, that was the that was one of the biggest pieces of evidence that really needed to come out to show just what a loosey-goosey operation the whole Warren Commission was. I mean, the thing was a joke from beginning to end.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

But real quick, let me stop you there because because what you're doing with your podcast and everything else you're doing, uh where you want to bring to light uh information, news, whatever it is that the mainstream media misses. The perfect example of this is you're having me on your show. During November, especially the end of November, okay, my publisher did whatever they could because, in my opinion, what Morris Wolfe told me about the Warren Commission and the corruption there is the single most important piece of evidence in history about the Warren Commission. Do you think the more the mainstream media wanted anything to do with me with regard to uh uh my being on the air and and talking about what happened there? Uh he went to every place he could think of and tried to get them, tried to say to them, This this is it. This is this is the key to everything. You've got any any investigation at all has to start with the corruption of the Warren Commission and then peel the layers back to when JFK was killed. None of them wanted to do that. I'll give you another example. There were several conferences around the country, and uh some that that I'd been to before, uh way back when. Do you think they invited me this time? No. Because you know why? If I'm on the air, uh uh, you know, the television or whatever, or at my conferences, Dorothy Kilgown is there. All of the books that have been written about the JFK assassination, except for mine, completely avoid her. She's not quoted in any of them because you can't do that if you're gonna keep yelling and screaming about Oswald alone. She destroys every aspect of that. So I almost look at like a badge of courage or a badge of honor or whatever, but I'm I'm I it's disappointing that the public doesn't hear about Dorothy and her research and mine and so on and so forth. Yeah. Uh instead, there's these crazy, you know, theories and all that out there and everything, because that's really, you know, there was an injustice to Marilyn when she died. Oh, yeah. There was an injustice to JFK when he died. There was never a thorough investigation of his death. J. Edgar Hoover did not want that to happen. He didn't want any investigation. He didn't want the body examined. That's why he sent it off to Washington, D.C., stole it in Dallas. He didn't want anybody to be looking into anything else other than the fact that it was one man who who who um uh was responsible for his death because then it would come back to the FBI should have stopped it or whatever that way, and they look into then him covering it up and everything like that. So they ignore Dorothy and they try to ignore today. Now, I'm really pleased that 12 million people have have seen uh and then heard about Dorothy up on the on the uh uh on the on YouTube and all of that and read my books and things like that. But it's the damnedest thing. I can't figure it out, except that it's an embarrassment for these people if Dorothy gets into the equation.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Well, I think there's two things there. I think Dorothy, and and I wanted to go back real quick for people who are listening who don't know the story quite as well to make sure they're following this train of thought, but really quick on on first of all, I think you will go down in history as the person who helped uh dramatically, uh uh dramatically helped prove that the Warren Commission uh was a joke and that you know there were two dissenting opinions that were not allowed to be included, and those two men just wanted to get out of there because they could smell the stench. Um, the fact that the powers that be shut down any potential for investigators or connecting any of the things that happened because it wasn't convenient for them. Um, I do think that what it what does prevent a lot of news media from covering this, which is one of the reasons why I started the show, um, is the fact that the the powers that be, the letter agencies, if you will, still will not release the full documents related to these instances. And I think within those, we may be surprised to find some of Dor, I mean, we may end up finding Dorothy Kill Kalen's missing files, which disappeared the morning that she uh was discovered, or I think they probably disappeared when she was uh taken out, uh to be honest. But um, I think you will go down in history and the world is changing and people want to know the truth. And the the the days of mass media really controlling are over.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Do you really think so?

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Yeah, I'm an intuitive. I don't just think so, I know so. That that will happen.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

I I I'd like to think so. I'm a very optimistic person. But some of this that goes on, you know, we were talking yesterday, my wife and I, and then a couple of friends. Uh uh the only people that make headlines these days are the screamers. It does and it doesn't matter what they say. Unfortunately, the the uh uh the quarterback from uh from Green Bay, Rogers, uh the person that we in our household call You Know Who, we don't mention his name, the former president. Uh all of these, uh you know, Mr. X, used to be Twitter, all of these people out there, you know, uh they they use the sensational to get the headlines.

The Night Dorothy “Overdosed”

SPEAKER_01 40:29

And for whatever reason, and I don't understand it exactly, people just lap that up. They just lap that up. They just love that. It's entertainment kind of, you know.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

I think that one and one of the things I've seen as a professional communicator is the demise of mass media and the numbers are just, I mean, compared to the numbers 15 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago, they've really lost the plot, they've lost their audience. Oh, yeah, and the numbers that you're seeing for things like Twitter, Space or X is what it's called now, and things like TikTok, where uh these types of conversations are actually very popular, and the narratives that they that they are used to being able to roll out to people don't play anymore, and people won't share them because they can smell it a mile away. So I promise you, not only is the world changing, media, mass media in terms of controlling the narrative, it that whole thing is dying. That will always exist where people will try to control what people believe. But um, the citizen journalism isn't just about me and my podcast, it's about the fact that the average citizen is taking it upon themselves to try to, you know, many of them, not everybody, but a lot of them are taking it upon themselves to try to find out the truth. And so, yes, I do believe all. I don't know. Um, really quick for those of you who are listening, I'm gonna take us back for just a second um so that we can kind of catch you up in case you got lost in all these incredible, like incredible details and the things that Mark has been able to prove over the years with his many books. So um uh we we have Marilyn um having an affair with Bobby Kennedy. Um she had a brief one uh uh uh apparently with JFK and then the brother, and then she uh uh has she's back on the rise again, but she is a little bit uh I mean she was a little bit hard to predict at the time because of what the things that have been done to her over the years in Hollywood. And um she's talking and uh talking about going to media, and then she uh has a strange death, which I've never my intuition has always told me was not a suicide. Um and then uh uh and then flash forward and Dorothy Kilgallen no new Marilyn, new Bobby, new JFK, and then we move forward to 63, and that's when J is that when JFK gets assassinated. So JFK then gets assassinated, and you've proven through your books that that happened because they were trying to con well, they were basically trying to control what those what the two of them were doing or what Bobby was going to kill. Bobby, mostly Bobby, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

Bobby mostly Jack and killed killed Jack and Bobby's powerless.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

Yeah, yeah, and Bobby's powerless, and uh and it probably took care of care of some other issues that they had, would be my they tended to clean up things that way, and so JFK dies in an unusual manner.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

Come you know that by the way. How uh do you have some inside information here with regard to the the model? You don't have any connections at all or anything, do you?

SPEAKER_02 43:16

No, no, I think that must have been just an intuitive thing. I just said uh so JFK um is taken out, and I do think that multiple people had an interest in taking it out because one thing I found about the letter agencies is they don't like uh presidents they can't control, and they don't like presidents they can't predict, especially ones that have uh are on any kinds of medication, if you will, because we have a sort of a history of of unpredictable presidents ending up in very unusual situations. Um, so JFK uh is is taken out, sadly, and then that whole thing, you know, that whole narrative, and that's what they did back then in the 60s. They took command of the narrative because they were because back then that you know the idea of controlling what the average person thought was justified as best for everybody, best for the country, you know, forget the truth. And Dorothy Kilgaalen, who was uh the preeminent female, she was the Barbara Walters Oprah Winfrey, uh, you know, on and on of her day. She was an incredibly powerful, intelligent woman who was an independent and fearless thinker. She says, My friend JFK, my friend Marilyn, something about all this just smells wrong. And then she's, you know, she's upset by what's happened with JFK, and she starts to investigate it. She goes to the trials, she starts to get information sent to her, she gets people sharing things with her, she becomes a threat to the narrative that the that the powers that be really wanted to sell, which was that Oswald killed Kennedy on his own for whatever reasons they were trying to sell. And then to Jack Ruby, who somehow ends up in Dallas in a police department in the basement with a gun, which you know just stinks to high heaven, takes out Oswald, so we can't actually ask him any questions. Amazing how that works. Um, and we've got Jack Ruby taking him out, and Dorothy Kilgailin, the preeminent female journalist who cannot be controlled, who is fearless, is the only reporter at the time who gets to sit down for almost 10 minutes with Jack Ruby while she's working on columns that are upsetting the powers that be, including Hoover, while she's gathering information and being sent privately. Documents that even the president hasn't seen. She's accumulating things that make her a threat. And she suddenly amazing, gets found. And this is what I wanted to bring up. Dorothy Kilgaalen, an incredibly influential, powerful woman who was very much in command of herself, is found dead from a drug and alcohol overdose. Um, in a bedroom she wouldn't sleep in, never slept in, with the air conditioning on, when it's cold out, wearing an outfit that her hairstylist, who knew her incredibly well, had literally never seen her wear, holding or not sitting next to a book that was open to be read, as and she's laying on a bed that's made up in with her hair, her wig, her eyelashes, and a book that she can't read because her glasses aren't anywhere to be found. And there's a doctor drink in the room that shows somebody opened up a capsule and dumped it inside the glass. So, yeah, that's how we all take our pills at night. And she's found this way, and we're all supposed to believe that she accidentally overdosed. And while while all of her notes that she had accumulated about Jack Ruby, about JFK's death, all disappeared and have never been seen since. And so now that's where we're at. And in and oh, just this do you see how on fire I get? Like the whole thing just crazy.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

I like that passion, that's for sure. And of course, uh, FBI agent raided her uh home uh about an hour or so after she died, and those documents disappeared. Supposedly, uh, you know, one of the things I did with Dorothy is I went to the autopsy. It showed that she had one drug in her system. She didn't have any drug problems at all, but one drug in her system. But I also found that a couple years later they uh re-uh checked the bodily fluids. They found three um three uh barbituates in her system. So obviously somebody had um, you know, injected those in her to poison her. And then, of course, Dorothy made the ultimate mistake. Uh, she signed a contract to write a tell-all book about everything she learned about the assassination, Marilyn, everything else, for Random House. And uh, when when the the powers that be, the the enemies that she'd made found out about that, as as I was told uh by a witness that I found uh again that I think she sent to me, a Las Vegas uh uh casino pit boss who called me finally and talked to me about things. The moment that that happened and everything, he said, and it always gives gives me a chill, she was dead. And the main guy, as people will read, who was involved with her at the time was a journalist, Midwestern journalist named Ron Pataki. And uh she shared with him some of her JFK assassination uh information. Uh I've been able to do that. Yeah, and what I've been able to do is that he was compromised by Hoover and Marcello and those guys into setting her up for the kill. And if you want to see the proof that uh he obviously was involved uh, you know, uh in in each of the books, the last three books, uh, you'll see the poem that he wrote, uh, which basically, uh, look at your mouth go open, yes, uh, gives the facts that only the killer could know. Yes.

Morris Wolfe And Warren Commission Rot

SPEAKER_01 48:20

A vodka and tonic drink, and uh just pass me one and don't worry which one is poison, and so on and so forth that way. And obviously, uh he was uh he was obviously complicit in her death. Uh, I also have a witness who said he was he told her he was the last thing, last uh person that Dorothy saw. Uh I've been after that guy for years and everything, and was able to get a couple investigations that we thought would uh possibly put him in a prison cell, but he did a dirty trick to me. He died last year. But I'm gonna work now. We're we're into the situation now where I'm gonna go to uh the New York District Attorney uh with all the new evidence and everything that I have. I've got uh uh somebody that may help me do that, and we're gonna try to get Dorothy's name cleared, which is what my ultimate goal is now.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

Yeah, yeah, and I agree with you. I think that's a that is an admirable thing, and it needs to happen because the whole thing is farcical. And the fact that any that no one's actually done anything about it now just tells you just how much influence is coming from from people who are not not even here anymore because they put the fear of God into the the the letter agencies to keep that quiet. So for those who are listening, um Pataki was somebody that Jorothy was having an affair with, supposedly. There's not necessarily proof about that, but they were spending time together. Um, he was sketchy, a lot younger than her. And uh uh um what's interesting about him is that he was spotted by somebody who had been on the show that night, correct? There was a woman who was on What's My Line that night and and had seen her Dorothy Kilgailin at the hotel and saw a man with her who who appeared to be like Pataki. But the thing that's most shocking that Mark was talking about is that uh after her death, there you came across a poem that he had written, and that poem um it reads like the the the confession of the killer who took her out because it knew details that were never available until years later. Uh I was shocked when you put that that poem up on you were doing a presentation at something, I forget which one it was, and I was like, that's a confession letter.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

Yeah, and uh that that uh still couldn't convince some of the uh um authorities in in New York City to uh uh to do an investigation of Dorothy's death because there really was no investigation when when she died. Um, you know, it's it's just uh it's significant that uh uh you know she had a lot of courage, this woman. And uh she was really a patriot in a lot of ways. She put her life on the line by investigating the assassination, and then continuing on. Uh at one point she she told one of the hairdressers if the wrong people knew what I know about the assassination would cost me my life. She said, I'm afraid for my life and my family. I've got a gun. And not too long after that, obviously, uh uh she was dead. So um I'm doing my part, and and you are, and I really, by the way, I wouldn't miss this, I really appreciate all the research you've done here because it really impresses me that you are, uh like Dorothy Kilgallen, a woman of the truth. You're trying to, you know, we don't know exactly what the truth is ever. We can only uh, you know, suggest the truth based on credible research and credible sources and things like that. But I'm very impressed by you that you're doing this. And I think your your podcast uh is really important. So I hope you'll continue on and have you know have guests on uh that that uh hopefully can inform people. My my books are stop and think books. Yeah, you know, I don't try to to barge into people's minds and tell them they have to agree with me. I just want them to be able to stop and think, and I think that's what you're after.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

Yeah, yeah, no, it's true. That's one of the reasons why I really loved your your your books because you you really focus on what is what what does the evidence say? Let's keep it as Occam's razor. Like what do what is the most likely scenario given the facts that we know, which is why so so you you wrote, I wanted to get back to Morris really quick because I thought that was just fact. When did that happen where you got contacted by by him?

SPEAKER_01 52:16

Uh because that to me is saying I I just never know what's gonna happen these days. I I get these calls and these emails from people that have you know are still alive, and and somebody was got a hold of me the other day about uh them them working on the limousine uh in in that the JFK was died in, died in. And and so I I'll look into that story now. Um but uh this came out of the blue, it really did. Uh I had I had uh uh decided after collateral damage that I was gonna that was enough, uh that I didn't need to go any further with what I had. And then all and I was working on, I still had some research, I kept my notes and everything. And then Morris, uh, God love him, uh think about the odds. Uh he he decides, for whatever reason, to look at a video presentation of mine at the Allen Library in Dallas, and he's starting to watch it, and then all at once he hears the name Dorothy Kilgallen. And what are the odds then of the fact that this man was a really good friend of Dorothy Kilgallen's? And uh you should have seen me. Uh, I couldn't record what he was telling me because I didn't know what he was going to tell me when he called. Yeah, and so I'm just writing as fast as I can everything that I that he told me, and later on I went back and made sure that it was accurate. But I was just, I mean, my mind was racing in terms of all of this and getting inside the Warren Commission. Uh J. Edgar Hoover says there the Oswald alone uh theory is good forgotten country. You know, all this other kind of baloney that was going on. And uh he worked for Bobby Kennedy, Morris did. He knew Jack Kennedy. He told me the about the Kennedy brothers. They were they were playful together. Uh they they uh JFK was uh jealous of Bobby at times for getting too much um publicity. And then he gets into Dorothy. I mean, what are the chances of him sitting at a dinner table with Dorothy Kilgallen at a member of the Warren Commission's home in Georgetown? Now go figure. You can't tell me that Dorothy didn't set that up.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

Right, right. So uh was he the one that rode the bicycle back and forth between Bobby and so for the listeners, uh he uh more Morris, I want to make sure I say his name correctly. Morris, uh uh who who contacted Mark um uh and had known Dorothy Kilgallen and had worked for the senator who was one of the dissenters on the Warren Commission, who basically got shut down for being a dissenter along with another senator. So there wasn't just one, there were two that were dissenting on the Warren Commission, which I think most people realize now is just BBS, um, big fluff report full of bullshit. Um it's just the truth. Um he he he carried not only was he friends with Dorothy Kilgallen, he carried messages because the the Jack Kennedy and his brother Bobby did not trust their to use their phones because they knew they were being listened to by Hoover. And uh and this think about that, how bizarre that is. Oh, I know he carried private messages between Bobby and and JFK. Like that's just wild. And then this man contacts you. You had to have been like, I'm sorry, what did you do? You worked for the Warren Commission Senator, and you carried messages between the two brothers.

SPEAKER_01 55:29

Wow, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:30

And did that cause another book to be written?

SPEAKER_01 55:33

I'm truly the most blessed man on the face of the earth. I really am. And uh, you know, I've been so fortunate that Dorothy sent all this information to me, and then I've taken it and done my own research and all of that. So I'm proud of what I've done. I don't care if these uh mainstream media or anything or these others don't want anything to do with it. I've tried to do my job in being able to put that material out there, and I

Media Avoidance And Citizen Journalism

SPEAKER_01 55:54

really appreciate your doing this because there will be, I I'll bet you something. There will be somebody who will watch or listen to this podcast who will get in touch with me with a tip about what happened back in in 1963 or 64 or 5 with Marilyn Dorothy or JFK. It happens all the time, every day. I get either an email or a call or something. And so uh they call that crowdsourcing. I never knew what that term meant. Yeah, but I guess I'm a champion crowdsourcer because these things just come to me like a magnet. And who would have ever thought this could happen? But it has.

SPEAKER_02 56:31

Wow, that's such an incredible journey. So the last book that you did, connecting all the dots, was that collateral damage?

SPEAKER_01 56:37

No, this is fighting for justice.

SPEAKER_02 56:39

Fighting for justice.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

And there's actually two presentations, one the end of last year, and then one over November 7th, both at the Commonwealth Club of San Francisco, about um about that book and and visualizes a lot of the things. Morris Wolfe has pictured up there. People are probably wondering, uh, what about Morris? Uh, how's he doing? Well, um, it seemed like right after I talked to him, he's had some uh some health issues. He's 88, I believe, health issues. Uh, I think he's doing fine now. Uh, but I I never felt like he, you know, uh we could we could have him interviewed uh unless he wanted to be to that happen for that to happen. And I never had his permission to uh suggest that. Uh basically he was able to give his contribution to history as I've given mine through me. And so I I made sure that what I wrote down and what he told me, I've interviewed him twice. Uh, and and and so, you know, make it make sure it was accurate, and it is.

SPEAKER_02 57:39

Yeah, I love that you um that you interviewed him twice and that you because I think one of the things that Dorothy Kilgallen's uh death proves is that, you know, and I do uh I'll go back to that in a second, is that you know, having a backup for somebody, and that's hard to do when you're an investigative journalist. Like who do you give your your stuff to? But it's it, you know, it it's it's almost sad that there isn't a second set somewhere. But I say that didn't am I imagining this am I misremembering? Didn't her assistant also pass away and their files also disappeared? Who's that now? Uh Dorothy Kilgallins. Didn't her assistant uh also no? Okay, then I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_01 58:23

People are with around Dorothy and everything else like that. A lot of people want to know why didn't anybody stand up for her when she died? Because they knew that was a shocking thing. Her friends, her colleagues at uh what's my line, nobody did because they were afraid. They thought if the same they knew that the same people who killed JFK uh had killed Dorothy, and so uh, you know, they uh they they really felt like that they couldn't speak up at that time. And in fact, uh uh Mark Sinclair, uh, who was Dorothy's main confidant, never talked about Dorothy's death in '63 until 1999 because he was so scared of what could happen. I should mention, by the way, if people are interested in all my research and everything, I'm I'm very honored that my uh my university, Purdue University, is archiving my body of work. Uh Neil Armstrong and Amelia Earhart and others are up there, and uh it's amazing that that's happened for a guy that took six years to get through uh Purdue. But all of his research and everything is available. If you go to Purdue University and look at the archives, I've sent them, let's see, 21 boxes of material that I've kept over the years. So hopefully that'll be there for researchers over the years, because what I like to have happen is somebody takes my research and then they go ahead and they look into things and all of that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:46

Yeah, you know, I I think that's what will that that is what will happen.

unknown 59:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:51

Um I uh no, wow, such a powerful, incredible story. And I think, I think with this, uh what I loved so much about your work, especially when I first saw it a few years ago, it was like five years ago, maybe more, when I started to follow all of your work, was that I could see how much you you were uh you honored Dorothy. And and I was shocked when I first looked her up and saw that not only was she erased from history for the most part, she was a footnote, this incredibly powerful, influential woman with millions of fans, millions and millions of fans all over the country, just disappears from history because she upset the wrong people. And no one steps up to her defense. No one, I mean, you could I could see the fear in her co-host's eyes when they were doing that post show right after she was killed. I could see that they were scared. It was in their energy, it was almost like they were shaking because they were like, oh my God, you know, because they had to- You know, nobody's ever mentioned that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

That's excellent. Thank you. That's right. I never thought about that because it didn't know if Dorothy shared with her, it was shared with them for research. That's excellent. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:50

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting when I I I noticed that when I was watching them. Um, but uh, you've you've helped bring Dorothy Kilgailin back to life and put her back in her rightful place in history, which is what you're working on now, what your body of work will continue to do. And I think that's beautiful because she deserves uh a powerful place in our history. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

She sure does. Sure, she sure does. Thank you so much for having me on your program. And uh I'll tell you your your uh listeners or viewers are lucky to have you.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:22

Oh, thank you, Mark. If you if people wanted to learn more about your books and your all your many, many pieces of work over the years, where would they go?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

Uh Markshawbooks.com is the uh website, www.markshawbooks.com. More about Dorothy is at the Dorothy Kilgallen Story.org and the reporter who knew too much.com. And then my email,

Resources, Websites, And Closing

SPEAKER_01 1:01:45

Mshaw I N at Yahoo. Mshaw I N at Yahoo. And I answer every single email, no matter how uh what what it says. So uh please, if you have any information for me, uh send it to me and and uh I will get back to you for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:02

Yeah, thank you, Mark. You are an investigative journalist. Thank you guys so much for listening to or watching, depending on when you're catching the show, Citizen Journalist. I'm so delighted to have had Mark Shaw on. Please go check out his books. If you would like to learn more about my work, uh please visit shamanisis.com and you can find out more about what I do. And if you like books um that have a bit of mystery, you will love my new book, Memory Mansion, um, which is coming out officially February 3rd uh of 2024. Congratulations. Thank you. It is the self-love memoir that reads like a thriller. It shares my journey from Tennessee Orphanage um on the run from human traffickers, landing in New York City and becoming a PR pioneer by accident, honestly. I felt like the forest gump of fashion at some point and uh how I eventually ended up uh dealing with all the trauma and learning self-love. So that is coming, arriving. Show it to you guys really quick because I'm really happy with the the cover.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:02

Oh, wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:03

Good for you. Congratulations. Thank you. So Memory Mansion, yeah. You can you guys can order it now and it'll arrive February 3rd. Um, or if you're seeing this in 2025 or 2027, which I believe you will, it will still be available. So go check out Memory Mansion. Thanks, you guys, and God bless and have a beautiful day.