S 2 Ep 1: Sangha, Not a Cult: Vibes, Science & The Matrix Escape Plan

Season 2 kicks off with Justine and Scarlett decoding the ancient concept of Sangha—your chosen spiritual fam—and asking the big questions: How is it different from a cult? Can a podcast community count as one? And why does chanting together hit harder than scrolling Instagram? We break down the hormonal science of group practice, wander from Buddhist forests to underground raves, and drop a myth from the Bhagavata Purana about sages gathering in the forest to listen. Along the way, we roast fake wellness fads, unpack the science of sound, and take a few side trips into The Matrix, Sister Sledge, and Catholic church acoustics. Whether you’re in it for the cosmic science, the cult-free community vibes, or the fashion tips for planetary dressing, welcome to the Third Eye Roll Sangha.

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Transcript

Justine Lemos (00:00)
Welcome to third eye roll where ancient wisdom gets decoded, demystified and occasionally roasted. I'm Dr. Justine Lemos with Scarlet Trillia here to serve up Vedic insights, spiritual real talk and a healthy dose of side eye. Each episode we're diving into Vedic astrology, Ayurveda, Tantra and the weird beauty of being human with segments like cosmic current events, story time with the Vedas and Shastras. WTF is that?

and a mystic mic drop to leave you lit. No gurus, no fluff, just the good stuff.

Justine Lemos (00:47)
Welcome back to third eye roll and guess what? We are now in season two. Who knew it? Now we decided we're back. We're even better. We took last week off. First week we have taken off. you missed us. We won't apologize. We needed a week off between seasons.

Scarlett (01:07)
Absence makes the heart grow fonder for

a new season. You missed us, now we're back. 2.0.

Justine Lemos (01:15)
That's right.

Scarlett (01:20)
⁓ man, I hope someone's watching our live stream. I love the distracting, irrelevant, slightly inappropriate comments that we get from the randoms on YouTube. Like, ooh, a message! Okay.

Justine Lemos (01:25)
me too. Z-Shorts!

I know, me too.

We get so excited

when somebody's listening. Though, you know, we do have a lot of people out there listening. And, you know, I think I'd like to express appreciation to those of you who are out there with us and, you know, listening along to this wild and fun ride that we have created.

Scarlett (01:42)
Somebody's listening.

Yeah, well, they're part of our community now. It's part of the Sangha. And something that I wanted to introduce in season two is the concept of a Sangha, because we've kind of formed, we have formed many in the past, but Third Irel Sangha is a real thing. I think it is.

Justine Lemos (02:20)
think it is. I mean, there are people all

over the world listening to Third Eye Rule.

Scarlett (02:26)
International! So should we tell them what a sangha is or should we just tell them that they're in one?

Justine Lemos (02:35)
Well, we surely can tell them what a Sangha is. And you know, there is this concept that they say you're the like the amalgamation of the five people who you spend the most time with, right? Which is really wonderful. Unless the people you spend the most time with is like the 24 hour news cycle or your ex's Instagram.

Or you know, that one high school friend who ⁓ just posts memes all the time. But Sangha is, you know, the ancient art in many ways of finding your soul family. And I think that this matters more than ever in a world that really keeps us isolated and scrolling the feed.

and very anxious.

Scarlett (03:37)
It's also the safe place that we go as we delve into these practices to compare notes with other practitioners who have opted to be part of the same path.

And we're kind of joking, a podcast isn't usually considered to be a sangha, but every single person listening right now has one thing at least in common with each other, because they all heard this. And that's the premise of a community. A sangha is really like a spiritual community that is more deliberately holding space for spiritual development and practice.

Justine Lemos (04:15)
for

spiritual inquiry, development and practice. So let's break down the terms a little bit. Our WTF is that segment of our podcast, which we often do.

Scarlett (04:24)
We are keeping, we're

keeping the segments for season two. Maybe we'll have a new segment that we add for season two. Maybe it gets more cool.

Justine Lemos (04:29)
Whoa.

Well, maybe we really

like our WTF is that we don't always lean into. ⁓ But we always have our music movie and fashion pick, which people just love. I'm so glad we thought of that. And then we always generally have a myth unless we forget.

Scarlett (04:48)
Unless we forget, but let's break it down. Let's do a WTF is that for this.

Justine Lemos (04:53)
So sangha,

it means it's from the word root some, which is together and ga, which means to move together or to gather together, an assembly. And sangha is often used in a Buddhist context to specifically designate the community of practitioners.

as one of the three jewels, the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha. And the Sangha is the living embodiment of the teachings. It is a support structure for awakening. In its early usage, it could also mean political or tribal ⁓ affiliation or like a band level affiliation.

And you know, a sangha is usually chosen, the community you join for practice or study or purpose. And then we also have the word kula, which means it's from the Sanskrit root kul, which means to heap together. And this is really, the meaning is like the family or the clan or the lineage group. And kula is really specifically used in a tantric sense.

when people are initiated together and consider each other to be brothers and sisters, often with ⁓ a teacher figure who is like a parent or who really is a parent, who becomes more important than the parent. And that really has a lifelong connotation. ⁓ You know, so...

This is more than just a chosen family. And, you know, we have to, I think in the modern context, look at the difference between cult and sangha if there is one. I think that there are a lot of ⁓ socially acceptable cults that people follow. I mean, surely ⁓ patriotism or

bonding to a specific ideal of country is a type of cult that is totally socially acceptable or generally socially acceptable. And one of our root teachers in the postural yoga tradition, as well as more, would say that a sangha is a group of individuals who come together to make inquiry into things of the spirit, who agree to disagree.

and who also agree to disband or leave each other when the time is right for them to disband. Whereas a cult ⁓ is built to fuse together and to push out outsiders. And one thing I often like to look at is the ⁓ hormonal implications of groups and sanghas.

Scarlett (07:47)
Ooh. Mm-hmm.

Justine Lemos (08:08)
Because at cl- Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Scarlett (08:08)
We have talked about this in the past, I remember this. ⁓

We're gonna break down the hormonal ⁓ implications of being part of a sangha and I'm asking in all seriousness because I just started a project, little...

Justine Lemos (08:23)
Yes! ⁓

Mm-hmm. Yeah, do it.

Scarlett (08:26)
shameless plug. It's called

the London Yoga Sangha. So I love it so much. Shout out to my colleague Caroline. We met in an office setting doing office yoga and a year later we are forming a sangha. But I hadn't yet considered the hormonal implications of what we're doing. So let's break it down and I will keep that in mind as I recruit members for my non-cult ⁓ network.

Justine Lemos (08:31)
I love it so much.

Scarlett (08:56)
of practitioners here.

Justine Lemos (08:57)
Wait, well,

⁓ cult, you know, we can talk about all the different hormone flows and how they work in the body and how they work with regulating self and other group and other dopamine, oxytocin, epithetrin, serotonin, adrenaline. And when we work with yoga and yoga practices, mantric practices, yantric practices,

spiritual sadhana, in part we are, and part of the reason why it makes us feel so good is that we are working with specific hormonal releases in the body. We're working with the endocrine glands, we're working with the pituitary glands, which ⁓ have a relationship to the chakras. They are not the chakras, but they do have a relationship with the chakras, an interface with the chakras. And so when we start to ⁓ create deliberate types of hormonal drips,

in specific settings that can either be, ⁓ it can be very addictive and in a cult ⁓ there is a huge amount of oxytocin dopamine switch on and off which is the mama bear I'm going to hug you into the fold and I'm going to push out any outsiders.

that I feel cozy and held inside of this group with these people and therefore I'm going to aggressively push out anyone that doesn't ⁓ feel like they are aligned in that inner circle.

Yeah.

Scarlett (10:48)
But that's the cult. So in the sangha, what is going on hormonally? Yeah.

Justine Lemos (10:50)
Mm-hmm.

Well, mean, this

⁓ is a designation that we have arbitrarily made between Sangha, like good and organic cult, bad, not so great. Let's say that there are certainly groups of people calling themselves Sangha who are totally cults. And there are groups of people who are cults who don't call themselves cults, right? And so we have made this designation, right? The hope is

And certainly in looser types of easy sanghas

that there is a loose enough affiliation that we don't get stuck in the trap of tightly adhering onto that group to provide us oxytocin and dopamine.

Instead, we're learning to self-generate those states of being so we can be really loose and very easy and the sangha can be, ⁓ it can have flow. That said, that said, and this is in part why cults develop, I think. When you're doing high risk, high reward,

types of spiritual practices, which there are many of which there are many, including but not exclusive to the mysterious energy of Kundalini, the group needs to be held in a much tighter way ⁓ in order to preserve the intensity of the energies that are being generated. So there's kind of this vector.

towards ⁓ very tight-knit secretive groups of people because they're working with so much energy. And so therefore, so many hormones. This does not mean that cult is always bad. Sometimes, and we've talked about gurus and cults, etc. Sometimes it can be.

Scarlett (12:51)
and so many hormones.

Justine Lemos (13:02)
Sometimes what we're calling Sangha, like this loose formation of individuals coming together in open-hearted, loving inquiry of things of the spirit can be too loose and too permeable. So you don't get anywhere with it.

Scarlett (13:16)
Mm-hmm. Whoa.

Yeah, and that was actually some of the impetus behind starting not a studio, we don't have a physical space, but rather creating a community and calling it a sangha and using it to host workshops and other offerings is that there's a level of exploration that I'm accustomed to having come from a very close-knit yoga community that is not only not often found in a public studio setting because it's not an appropriate place, but it's ⁓

Justine Lemos (13:46)
That's right.

Scarlett (13:49)
you

It's not something that I actually enjoy doing by myself. It's something that is greatly enhanced and protected and supported by being in a community, regardless of what your role is. And I just had a funny insight. This kind of brings us to the contemporary. Maybe this is the segue into our themes. So using this network that I created as an example, the difference between like a cult and a sangha is like you can join, you can go to our website and join our mailing list.

and you'll get invited to everything that we're offering. But you can also unsubscribe from the mailing list and we're not gonna like come to your house and get you or like, you know, is that you can, no. ⁓

Justine Lemos (14:22)
Mm-hmm.

Right, exactly right. There is no shunning. There's no shunning. There is no

⁓ ousting. There's no, there's none of this, right?

Scarlett (14:35)
Yeah.

But you, it's like, you could come one time and should you not enjoy the workshop, you could choose to not come again. You could stay in the loop and have the choice to, and you could decline, but stay within the information that we provide forever. That's an interesting concept. Like you said, you could remove yourself completely, or you could keep showing up and showing up and showing up. And without a doubt, if you chose to do that in a setting like this, your practice will get deeper because that's why.

Justine Lemos (14:52)
Mm-hmm.

Scarlett (15:07)
That's what you're showing up for and we can't guarantee you're gonna be able to do a handstand or you're gonna have perfect health or you're gonna have a God realization or Kundalini awakening. We're not Even really offering any of that We're saying the more you practice the better your practice will be and feel and the more you show up the more of that you will be held within this community because you will be a part of it but yeah, it's it's fun to so movie movie pick music pick fashion pick for the

the kind of dynamic that we're describing. The thought that came to mind is like a choir for the music. It's like one person could stop singing and it's not gonna ruin the performance. But if everybody stops singing at the same time, the choir wouldn't, really, the music wouldn't exist. That's kind of what it feels like to me. Do we have a good like choral? Oh, that's nice. Yeah.

Justine Lemos (15:43)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

thinking we are family.

It's higher, right? I mean...

Scarlett (16:05)
borderline creepy, but yeah. Are we talking about like,

⁓ like Sister Sledge, We Are Family? Yeah, all right, okay. And what's the Sly and the Family Stone song about? Family? ⁓ What is this?

Justine Lemos (16:11)
Yes, of course.

yeah, we're like.

My memory isn't good today. Usually it's really sharp. Yeah,

Scarlett (16:27)
It's a family affair. It's a family affair. It's

a family affair. Yeah, that's definitely one of the songs for the song. What are we wearing? What is this? It's like.

Justine Lemos (16:33)
Yeah.

We better wear the flowing

white robes.

Scarlett (16:44)
But

it can't be a uniform because a uniform where that gets too cold. So what is the appropriate balance between being dressed for the group activities?

Justine Lemos (16:48)
It's Poole T.

Well, you know, we do that

thing where we dress in the colors associated with the planets of the day quite frequently. And we just like, it's not like we get mad at anyone who doesn't or like shun them, but we definitely give each other a nod. Like, hey, nice red for Mars today.

Scarlett (17:14)
We do do that. For

people newly joining, ooh, we haven't, we have not, maybe season two is where we start to offer some of the ⁓ secrets of the third I roll sangha inside jokes, including what colors to wear on what days.

Justine Lemos (17:20)
Mm-mm.

That's it.

I mean,

have to be we have to be culty and dangle the gift bag at them. It's like if they sponsor our podcast or if they enroll in one of our courses, then they get the secret stuff, right?

Scarlett (17:52)
Yeah, I like

their spiritual name, which shall not be discussed further on this episode.

Justine Lemos (17:55)
like their spiritual name.

It

will not be discussed.

Scarlett (18:02)
It will not be discussed. But yeah, it's true. There's things and something that starts to happen and you see this when people get into romantic relationships

Weirdly you see this when somebody gets a dog where they start to look like their dog or dress dress like their partner and you see that in in a fun way in yoga communities too where it's like Wow, we showed up with the same thing on and that wasn't actually a plan or an assignment or related to some chart or whatever It just so happens that we're doing the same thing and we've found

Justine Lemos (18:16)
Yes. yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

You're here? You're here? You're here? You're here? You're here? You're here?

Scarlett (18:40)
something that makes us all feel comfortable in terms of what we're wearing. We have that happen a lot. Like,

Justine Lemos (18:46)
We have that happen

a lot and it's also because you're, for lack of better terms, you get to be in the same resonant frequency or field. And this is in part, I mean, yeah, we're, if you're moving together, but especially if you're chanting together and you're intonating the same sounds, which brings you into the same mental, emotional, spiritual, vibrational field for lack of a better term.

Scarlett (18:53)
Mm-hmm.

Justine Lemos (19:10)
and then all of a sudden you start to be on the same wavelength. I mean, we have these things embedded in our language. We just don't really think of them as being as serious as they really are.

Scarlett (19:23)
Yeah, and I mean to be like very frank about it, even though we may come across as kind of like woo woo or spiritual or new agey, I don't know if we do or not. Some people probably think that the stuff that we're talking about is very esoteric, but actually this is the most, excuse my language, this is like the most basic human shit ever. It's like, it's just...

Justine Lemos (19:37)
Do we? I don't know if we do.

Correct. Maybe we don't.

I want to know from people. Like, I don't think we come off as woo at all. I think we come off as highly knowledgeable in wisdom that is not within the epistemology of the typical Western frame. And, you know, something that I'm really interested in as an

Scarlett (19:58)
We have to... ⁓

That's correct. ⁓

Justine Lemos (20:19)
Anthropologist is the idea of epistemology. This is a system of thought or inquiry that people get invested in. It's a way of thinking. It's a modality of mental construction of reality. And yes, Western science is one specific epistemology. It has wonderful benefit. And yet there are

other epistemologies and other types of sciences that have validity.

Scarlett (20:53)
Absolutely.

Justine Lemos (20:54)
Within

its own context, Vedic astrology is considered to be a science. It is a science. is a science. It's a science. It's a, right? Which means that it's a system of inquiry that people have been using observable inner and outer, inner and outer data to register certain

Scarlett (21:02)
It is a science of light. It is a astronomically based science.

Justine Lemos (21:23)
observable results for 5,000 years. it is different and a problem with recognizing different epistemology is that then everything potentially becomes as valid as everything else. And we can see how that can

Scarlett (21:29)
and it's the same.

Justine Lemos (21:52)
quickly lead into ⁓ frameworks that have no basis in observable fact, which can lead us into some very dark places as humanity. You're ⁓ just because you think, you know, just because you did your own research on the internet.

and on social media doesn't mean that you got the answer that is actually ⁓ correct in an observable way, if that makes sense.

Scarlett (22:37)
Yes, and I, this is slight tangent, but I think it's a good time to reflect upon the fact that, and I've been, I've been alluding to this and foreshadowing this and we put it in astrological context.

the rise of AI content on the social platforms, and we all know from hearing me talk about it, I pay attention to social stuff because I find it to be fascinating. And the rise of fake news content is happening so fast. And what I wanted to say in this context is that that's exactly what you're talking about. People are making...

Justine Lemos (23:11)
And that's what I'm talking about, That's I'm talking about.

And also the like ⁓ extreme new age of like, well, I'm just going to use a Rose Quartz crystal to cure cancer. therefore, and also which can lead to like victim blaming, like, well, we create our own reality. Therefore, why haven't you used your own mind to fix your cancer?

Scarlett (23:35)
Well, I've had cancer twice and let me tell you. Let me tell you what I'm talking I mean, people are like, well, why didn't you just green juice? It's like, why don't you, I would love to see you get a metastatic cancer diagnosis and just green juice your way. Sure. Sure.

Justine Lemos (23:37)
That's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about.

Yes.

Just green juice your way out of it, right? And so that's what I'm talking

about. And so therefore, to finish my thought, therefore, I want a system, an epistemology that is time tested. Because guess what? People have not been sitting around making inquiry into the science of Ayurveda, into the science of Vedic astrology, into the science of yoga for two to 5,000 years if it doesn't work.

Scarlett (24:05)
Mm-hmm.

Justine Lemos (24:20)
they'd give it up. They would stop doing it. Right? Just like Western science does work. We've built an iPhone. We've been to the moon. It's not like I'm saying in any way that it works for certain things. It doesn't work very well for realization.

Scarlett (24:23)
they would stop doing it in the same way.

And

No, and actually this is, I'm on tangent mode right now, but one of the things that we do as ⁓ practitioners and counselors in the Ayurvedic field is because we're practicing as Westerners in the West with Western clients, basically, mostly, mostly, we are often debunking fads and trends from the wellness community.

Justine Lemos (24:59)
Mostly.

That's right.

Scarlett (25:08)
and simply guiding people back to what used to be considered normal and basic health where it's like, it's not mad science so much as, were you born in the 1950s and you were trying to lose weight in the 1980s and you got on a low fat trend and it has taken you into a realm of

Vata derangement depletion that has done stuff to your tissues like we're we're not doing anything that weird We are simply helping you unwind from something that was not time tested there what there was a pure people and this is what happens with mass ⁓ communications and mass media and

especially commercialized kind of corporate capitalistic approach to health and wellness is hey quickly sell this to everyone because we got a lot of soy to use We got a wait, you know, we got a lot of margarine. want to sell so quick find a way to get everybody to jump on this bandwagon that is so the opposite of Yeah, I'll stress out thinking about it. Hopefully hopefully when I was moved, I know but that's that's

Justine Lemos (25:58)
Yeah, exactly.

I know, me too. my god.

Scarlett (26:17)
That's

a lot of what we come across and it's no ⁓ judgment of the person. They were given information that felt like it had been time tested and scientifically proven. If you read some of those scientific studies, they may have been limited or manipulated or both. And really what we're saying is, hey, nice try, but...

something that we have something that the people that came before us have noticed over millennia is that if you do it this way you'll get a more consistent outcome than if you keep trying all these different short-term modalities.

Justine Lemos (26:49)
Right, you know, like,

and it's always this question, like, you know, people will come to me and they want this massive change and then they are unwilling or unable to shift it to any patterns and, know, or they're very attached to some of the things that they're doing. And I say, that's fine. You can keep doing that. You're just going to get the same result.

Scarlett (27:08)
you're just going to get the same result. Yep, that's it. That's it. I mean, I feel that way when people are, you know, because I do get.

Justine Lemos (27:10)
That's it. Keep doing the same thing. You're going to get the same results.

Scarlett (27:18)
I get a lot of pushback, not a lot, but there are people who I love dearly who have no interest in what I'm interested in. Like, you're so weird, Scarlett. ⁓ you know, that's so irrelevant. Whatever. I'm like, well, I just won't talk about it. But it's kind of like, Hey, if you are a hundred percent happy and healthy, then you do you. And you know, if you, if you love everything that you've got going on, then stick with it. And that's an awkward conversation because it's often people who are.

Justine Lemos (27:24)
Yes.

Yes.

Scarlett (27:47)
not happy and healthy that are the most resistant to these things because it can almost be scary to embark on a path that has shown proven outcomes over so much time because it's like, I'm almost guaranteed to experience a shift and it might be uncomfortable or yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it?

Justine Lemos (28:06)
Mistake of the intellect.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Scarlett (28:12)
There is a fund I'm teaching at a retreat next week that is working at the intersection of these kinds of practices. And then they're bringing in some functional medicine components. And I like that approach because it gives people different kinds of anchors. And there's kind of an intersection, almost like a Venn diagram where it's like, you know, we don't necessarily need blood results to prove the efficacy of some of the practices that we engage in or lifestyle choices that we make.

Justine Lemos (28:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Scarlett (28:42)
And yet, should the blood results show up and give you information that is consistent with that, it's like double proof. And I think that that is a trend. It's an anchor. ⁓ And you know, like I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole, but I've worked with blood testing from a business perspective and it is really interesting. It's really fascinating data for better and for worse. ⁓

Justine Lemos (28:51)
Exactly. And it anchors people.

Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Scarlett (29:10)
We didn't do a, wait, we did a fashion pic-ish.

Justine Lemos (29:14)
summertime and the living is easy. That's the line. That's it. I was thinking that there's another.

Scarlett (29:18)
Yeah, what? So

is the movie Porgy and Bess? Because that's like... ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah, that's...

Justine Lemos (29:24)
I was thinking, I think the movie is Dead Poet Society. Right? Or

I think that, know, the Matrix when they're having their big rave party.

Scarlett (29:40)
The rave party, that is like optimal outcome of being in a sangha is you get to go to the Matrix rave, underground rave, and yeah, that's the...

Justine Lemos (29:46)
Yes.

Right. And you had talked about this,

when we were chatting, you know, about, ⁓ you know, being the living batteries for AI and being in the matrix and out of the matrix and in the matrix and out of the matrix and yanked in and out and how the, how the Sangha in some ways is the outside the matrix.

Scarlett (30:17)
Yes, that's correct. I did say that. ⁓

Justine Lemos (30:19)
The Sangha

is as much outside the matrix as we can manage in this realm of Maya, in this realm of illusion. Why? They're generally, usually, or at least in this context, they are not behaving like your mother, your father, your sister, your brother, your partner. And yet this community comes together to support each other. Not in the context of let's eat dinner, not in the context of let's drink together, not in the context of

work together, right? It is this very special portal or like we've talked about like a boat across the ocean of samsara, right? There's this ocean of suffering that we cross through and then we die and then we are reborn into this ocean of suffering and we keep crossing through and so if we have a boat to take us across this sea of suffering

Scarlett (30:50)
Mm-hmm.

Justine Lemos (31:16)
⁓ things go much better and we have this group in this boat that is going to support each other across the sea of suffering. And you also had mentioned Life of Pi, which is a really great choice.

Scarlett (31:23)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah,

that in that context, that is an interesting, ⁓ beautiful metaphor when you do think of the sangha as like the boat on the ocean of of samsara. And I had a thought about that being a part of a spiritual community does not guarantee that things will be easier, better, nicer. ⁓ And I say this from the first, hopefully with those people.

Justine Lemos (31:53)
That's right. Hopefully with those people it will. Like, a song that should

not be abusive.

Scarlett (32:00)
No, no, absolutely not. it's what we can guarantee is that it's going to be real. But it's like if you are being unplugged from the matrix, it might feel wretched at first.

Justine Lemos (32:06)
That's right.

Scarlett (32:14)
because you're going outside your comfort zone and you may in a moment of participation in a sangha activity acknowledge that something from your matrix reality no longer serves you and you may have to let that thing kind of die. Right? And that's a very, that's what the sangha is for is to say to you, Hey, that's a big realization that might feel uncomfortable, but we have, we are all in that process too. And we can actually be cheerful about the fact that

Justine Lemos (32:30)
Right? Yeah.

Scarlett (32:44)
We no longer get our dopamine hits just from scrolling on Instagram. We now get them from an embodied practice that makes us feel good for a different way. From a brother, yeah.

Justine Lemos (32:52)
from doing our breath work, our perineum, from doing our mantra training,

from doing all these things. And the thing about it is, is these things take some patience, they take some discipline, but the result and fruit for that, fruits of them are way more pleasurable than scrolling.

Scarlett (33:08)
and way

more sustainable, they don't deplete you. And that is really the difference. ⁓ It's like, again, in The Matrix, there's a character who ends up being a bad guy, and he is doing everything in his power to go back. He wants to go back and eat steak. Right? He wants to go back and eat steak and...

Justine Lemos (33:11)
Great.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yup.

Scarlett (33:30)
there is no stake outside the matrix. ⁓ And it's like, I think that is such a well-written movie. I can't really talk about it enough because all these little examples are so relevant. ⁓ But yeah, I think that's the joy and the risk is that you cannot go back to sleep.

Justine Lemos (33:32)
That's right.

Scarlett (33:56)
once you experience any level of awakening. And that fact alone is enough to keep people from even wanting to try because they might say to themselves, I'm very happy with my matrix. I know it's a matrix. I like my matrix. I want just... ⁓

Justine Lemos (33:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Or at least if not happy,

at least the matrix is something that I understand.

Scarlett (34:16)
Yeah, I'm happy ⁓ with my relationship to this matrix because I can predict and manipulate it in the ways that work for me right now. And that's the difference between, to put a cap on it, between a Sangha and a cult is that we will say then, be free from this. there's no judgment if you choose to no longer participate because...

Justine Lemos (34:40)
Right. Exactly. We're like,

Scarlett (34:42)
Go back.

Justine Lemos (34:43)
that's great. Please.

Scarlett (34:45)
And it truly is free of judgment. this doesn't, I've had people walk out of yoga classes and say, hey, this isn't stimulating enough. I wanted to do a workout and we're breathing in here and it's not what I came here for. It's like, then go and do, go to the gym. Go do your workout. And that's a judgment free on both sides outcome. And that may happen. ⁓

Justine Lemos (34:51)
yeah, bye.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep, exactly.

And so I thought I'd tell a myth ⁓ and to finish out our first episode in season two, which is the gathering at Namshasharna. And so in the ancient forests of Namshasharna, there was a great circle of sages, of rishis, and they gathered together to listen, which I just have to shout out our last full moon was in Shravana.

the nakshatra of deep listening. So this is a lovely story for this lunar cycle that we're in. And they had heard that the Suta Gosvami a wandering storyteller and devotee, carried a telling of the Purnas in his heart. And he had been with Sukha, who is a son of Vyasa, who is a great sage. And he had been with him when the stories were first spoken by the sacred river.

Scarlett (35:41)
Hmm.

Justine Lemos (36:09)
And so they invited all these sages, all these rishis, invited this great storyteller into their midst. In a circle under the trees with a fire at the center and their hearts leaning forward. And this is what we do a lot of in sangha, is we sit around and tell stories. And this was not a blood lineage. All these rishis came from different clans and castes and regions, but they came together and they created a sangha.

with shared devotion and with the willingness to listen, the Shravana. know, sometimes I've had, I've taught whole teacher trainings and then I've had people say, you know, I've had people ask me, ⁓ wasn't your body really sore after doing a weekend of teacher training? And they're like, no, but I'm kind of tired in my hips and my knees from all the sitting and listening because we do a lot of sitting and listening. And as the telling of these beautiful Purnas,

began, the forest itself began to lean in and even the devas, the angelic beings paused in all their wanderings and the wind slowed down and the stories began to flow like nectar and the rishis drank it all in, becoming this living spiritual family bound by sound and by remembering. And so in the Bhagavata Purana, it's said that this type of gathering, this sangha,

creates an invisible ripple that moves through the worlds. The ancestors are fed, future beings are fed, and the space between heaven and earth thins. And this is the function of a sangha, not to just keep each other company, but to become like a battery transmitter of light and knowledge and Veda and wisdom.

Scarlett (38:04)
I love it. And...

Justine Lemos (38:05)
So there you go. Yeah.

Scarlett (38:08)
I mean, I think it bears repeating as kind of a sense of closure because we were talking about the particular power of mantra chanting in a group or reciting mantras in a group, which I would say directly equates to the experience of singing hymns in a church, for example. For example, but when we talk about sitting around and listening and we talk about Shravana in the ear and sound,

Justine Lemos (38:25)
Yes, yes, of course.

Scarlett (38:35)
Sound is vibration, right? And it's like, okay, obviously, but that is a very profound statement in this context because we are literally vibing out. That's what you do. We're literally vibing out. That's what it is.

Justine Lemos (38:37)
That's right.

We are literally vibing out. And actually when we go into different sacred

portals, temples, churches, et cetera, was, you know, we were just in Europe and I went into a lot of churches and it's amazing what the architecture does because it's literally built as a conduit of a very high ah sound that moves up and out. And let me tell you, the crown of the head, the crown chakra starts to vibrate underneath a golden dome that's above it.

Scarlett (39:02)
Mm-hmm.

Justine Lemos (39:18)
These are specifically meant as transmitters of up and out transcendent energy, which is where the attention goes to in the Christian framework of reality. God is transcendent in that framework, right? And this is super pranic up and out energy.

Scarlett (39:37)
on, yeah.

And on the other end of the spectrum, you may form the closest relationships that you have, the closest most meaningful relationships that you have with other people in your life, in a basement next to a subwoofer at an underground rave, which is another kind of vibration. And this is, is a punning.

Justine Lemos (39:56)
Exactly!

There's another type of vibration, which is why I

mean, I love to go into these intense portals without judgment. And like the people are like, why are you going into Catholic churches? I'm like, I love a Catholic church because of what it starts doing to the endocrine system. does amazing things to the endocrine system. Just as going into a basement with a subwoofer does amazing things to the endocrine system. Both are science.

Scarlett (40:13)
Yeah.

Yeah, it does amazing things.

They're both, both, both are science. This is science. This

is science. Because, because science, yep.

Justine Lemos (40:30)
This is science and this is,

and you know, like, you know, as a final thought, there's so much interest in so-called biohacking and all this stuff. No, the ancients were doing weird, always biohacking. We're always working with our biology to experience specific results. No dopamine and you do not get up out of bed in the morning. We are literally addicted to sunlight and to food and to staying alive.

Scarlett (41:06)
Namaste, bye.

Justine Lemos (41:11)
All right.