Caring for Creatives: Battling Burnout (Ep. 3 - Understanding Burnout and How To Fight it)

TrevorChin.com

Welcome to the 'Reimagining Worship Podcast' – the ultimate destination for worship teams and church creatives! 🎵🙌 I'm your host, Trevor Chin, and in this episode, we're delving deep into a topic that resonates with every passionate worship leader, musician, and creative in the church: battling burnout.

If you've poured your heart and soul into worship ministry, this episode is for you. Join me as we navigate the challenges and triumphs of serving in the church's creative realm. As someone who's been in those very shoes, I understand the exhilaration and the demands that come with it.

Together, we're peeling back the layers of burnout, dissecting its signs, and exposing its effects on our creativity, our spirituality, and our emotional wellbeing. From that constant fatigue to the waning motivation that leaves us staring at blank pages, we're covering it all.

But hey, this episode isn't just about identifying burnout – it's about reclaiming your passion and reigniting your creative spark. We're diving into the art of setting healthy boundaries, because let's face it, worship leaders and creatives are known to give their all.

Let's craft a rhythm that nurtures your soul, protects your creative spirit, and empowers you to lead others in worship from a place of overflow. Together, we'll explore the power of saying 'no,' prioritizing self-care, and preserving your spiritual journey.

Join me on the 'Reimagining Worship Podcast' as we address the very real challenges of burnout within worship teams and equip you with actionable strategies to rise above it. Whether you're a worship leader seeking renewal or a musician eager to reignite your musical fire, this episode is your guide.

Transcript

Speaker 1

What is going on? Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back. Thanks for joining us once again for reimagining worship. I am, I have the privilege of being your host. My name is Trevor Chen. And we have been going through this season, this has been season three of reimagining worship and it is called creative Burnout and how to support creatives.

And this really just been a an uptick if you will of of frustrations growing frustrations within the church and creatives lack of value, lack of care. Like all of these just different, different little little little things and especially coming out of the pandemic. I really wanted to talk to pastors and churches and church leaders around how to care for creatives, how to best support creatives, how to empower creatives, how to battle burn out like all those kind of things just

because there's just a general heart and a general care for the church and for creatives in the church. So, that's what this is. if this is your first time here, I wanna encourage you like yo check, check a few other episodes out. Season one, I had a bunch of friends on and we talked through different things around church, church worship and audio and youthfulness.

And then season two, we kind of got a little bit more in the weeds and talked about women, give me women in ministry in the worship space. We talked about lack of resources and what to do by paying musicians, All these different kind of things that we had the opportunity to do. Season two and season three has really, really, really been focused primarily on burnout.

Now. This is gonna be a short season because I just don't wanna prolong this, but also I wanna be able to add as much value and care as possible As we try to navigate through through a lot of these things. So, in short me, I'm Trevor Chen and I'm, I'm just, I'm only giving this little background information for folk who might be new here. But I am essentially a creative executive.

I, I've been in the creative in creative art space and executive pastor space, church planter space. all that for about 18 years now. I've been able to be a part of a bunch of church startups, not a bunch. Let me not say that sounds crazy, but a few church startups and helped with denominations and church plant networks and everything in between.

And this reimagining worship is just a new platform, a new avenue for creatives to be able to connect for worship leaders, musicians, pastors, whatever the case may be, whatever you wanna call yourself to be, to connect, to collaborate and share resources, all that kind of good stuff. I have a, a website you can check out. I also have a a Facebook page where people are engaging in regular conversation there.

So all that information is in the is in the link below, but I don't want to belabor this time any longer. But episode one of season three, I talked through like understanding creatives. Episode two, I talked heavily around how to like support creatives and we talked about how, how to create workshops to help them monetize and give them more flexible schedules and mentorship program, all these different kind of things.

But today, today we're gonna hit the heart of the matter. And then next week I have a special episode where two artists I was able to sit down with and talk about this idea of care of rest of emotional support, all that kind of good stuff. Iiii I hinted about it on my Instagram. So you gotta go check me out on Instagram at teaching creates tch inc reates.

check me out there. But but today I want to talk about recognizing and burnout, recognizing and burn out how it affects creatives. If you need help as a sounding board for people that don't, if you're creative and need help for people to understand how you operate and how you're dealing with, this season, hey, send them this podcast because I'm sure I'm sure based on the space that I've been in, we all have been feeling at least a few of these things.

So the first thing I really want to talk to is recognizing burnout, the impact of that burnout and and then really some boundary conversations, you know what I mean? So there, we're gonna talk through all of that. I'm hoping to not make this super long and unnecessary, but we're already at five minutes and we haven't even started with the content yet, you know what I'm saying?

But, but once again, thank y'all for being for rocking here. Last thing I'll say, I will ask you to like, share, subscribe this coming fall. I'm actually doing a reimagining worship workshop local in Baltimore, Maryland. That's where I'm based out of in Baltimore, Maryland. But more information to come, I want to encourage you to like hop on the website or hop on my Instagram and, and sign up for the mailing list with that.

But boom, let's get into it. We're here. We're rolling. Thanks for rolling with me on youtube. Even though y'all aren't getting the primary love. It's more so for the podcast, but you're here along with the ride and I wanna say that thank you, appreciate that love. But here we are episode three, we are rolling, recognizing, burnout, recognizing and burn out.

The reason why I felt it necessary to do an episode about recognizing burnout is because we can do very well to put our head down and just to just to run through the goal line, The difficulty with when you put your head down and just barge forward pun intended on the illustration, but your head is down, you're not looking up, you, you, you have a lack of vision, you have a lack of clarity, you have a lack of, of, of rest and of, of help and, and all these things.

So the more we just try to rush through and barrel through and just get it done and it's just we just, I just need a, a day off so I can kind of recap. No, no, no, no, no, no burnout impacts every part of your life, emotional spiritual health, familial, your money like yo, the burnout impacts every single part of you and recognizing the signs of burnout I think is important.

And as at least as many triggers in our head, if you will, that when we, when we feel these emotions kind of bubbling up and not sure how to manage them or, or, or or what's happening or how to handle them. We can recognize them as like, oh, these are, I might be burnt out. The first one is constant fatigue, constant fatigue. This is more than you just being tired.

You know what I mean? This is more than just ex exhausted like this is just like after a long day or a workout. This is like waking up in the morning and then just being like, don't want to get the day started. Even when the day gets started, you had your coffee, you done try to go for a whatever and it's just still just like I just cannot shake this exhaustion.

This constant fatigue is, is, is a, is a aching and ailing reminder that just can just hover over us day after day after day. Sometimes diet can help that sometimes exercise can help that. But sometimes it is just this constant, it's just this burnout. Sometimes it just burn out. Another sign a way to, to, to signal that you might be on the way to burnout or burnt out is a loss of motivation.

Creatives who are burning out may lose a motivation to create creatives who are burning out, may lose the motivation to create. This can manifest in procrastination. This can manifest in avoidance. This can manifest in pushing off on creative tasks. Feeling overwhelmed at the start of a new project just knowing that there's so many things that's going on that need to happen.

A loss of motivation. The goal is, and I don't want to jump to the end real quick, but the goal is to have enough bandwidth enough lee weight that creativity still excites you. The goal is to be able to create some space in your life where it is exciting to create. When was the last time you had fun? What, what in whatever space you're in, if you're in video and if you're in music, if you're a worship leader, if you're a singer, if you're a musician, when was the last time you said, like,

I've really had fun on Sunday. I really had fun at rehearsal. I really had fun capturing this when the last time you picked up your camera. When the last time you practiced, like not Sunday morning, practice, just regular practice. Loss of motivation is one another one that kind of alluded to that, but it diminished creativity, diminished creativity.

There might be this creative block where you literally cannot generate a new idea. There is, there's no more space in your mind, heart, body and soul for you to come up with yet another sermon series or yet another video or yet another song selection, diminish creativity. This is this could be a sign of burnout detachment, cynicism. Hm Burnt out creatives may begin to feel detached from their work from the church, from their colleagues from the community that they serve

whatever the case may be. And, and this is an easy telltale sign when you have someone that's naturally bubby, bubbly, that's naturally upbeat. That's naturally, I mean, it is kind of on the up and up. This is someone that, that person that's like it is what it is. Life is hard, things are bad, everything is gonna be bad. Everything is gonna be difficult.

All, hey, detachment, cynicism is the sign of burnout decrease decreased productivity. Similar situation No matter if they're working the full 40 hour, 50 hours, 60 hour work week, just seeming to not being able to get stuff done, decreased productivity, decreased productivity is another one. Difficulty concentrating. I'm gonna run through these a little bit faster but di difficulty concentrating.

It's, it's how many canvas screens do you have open? How many windows do you have open? How many times have you opened up that logic to to record the intro for Sunday and you just, you just can't difficulty concentrating frustration and irri irritability, frustration that that speaks for itself. burnt out individuals often have a low frustration tolerance and may become irritable or overly sensitive to criticism.

I know that's self-explanatory, but this is when I tell you, this thing is hitting home, right? This second as I'm talking to y'all. but have you ever felt yourself really sensitive, really defensive, really resistant to criticism no matter what, what the criticism might be, no matter how encouraging it might be, no matter how, that's a sign of burnout, that's a sign of burnout change in sleep or appetite.

You know what I mean? That's oversleeping, that's unders sleeping, that's inability to be able to sleep, That's stress eating, that's not eating enough, that's not eating at all. Like it's all of these things, neglecting personal needs, neglecting personal needs that goes back to the, to, to the health piece and the sleep and appetite.

We're talking about like healthy eating exercise, social interaction, drinking water, all of the natural, taking your vitamins. I'm getting to the stage in life that if I don't take my multivitamins, I feel it. You know what I mean? I, I gotta take them things like, like faithfully. But but yeah, just, just a neglect of, of your personal needs.

You, you know what I mean? Your showers become less frequent, you know what I mean? It's just you just trying to get through the day. You gonna just a muggy yourself through the staff meeting. So, neglecting personal needs. And the last one, that kind of wraps all of these up is the feelings of inadequacy or failure even in the midst of your wins.

If your wins feel like losses. If you, if your ups still feel like downs if you're, the things that you produce and create and do you, I mean, function and, and accomplish if it just continually feels like it's not enough or you're not doing enough, it doesn't look good. It's, that, that's a, that's a easy telltale sign. I'll tell you, man that the, the enemy can easily swoop in, in some of those dark times like that.

Just to communicate all of your inadequacies to repeat to you all of the things that you have tried to block yourself from saying to yourself. So all of these things that I just communicated are easy telltale signs, little triggers that I would kind of put in the back of your mind just to say, listen, when, when, when a few of these, when three or more of these things are, when, if three or more of these are gathered, hey, we in trouble, you know what I mean?

We need to take action, we need to be intentional with this next season. But when those things happen, here's the impact of burnout, here's the impact on, on creatives, it impacts their physical health. Like I said, I already communicated a lot of this but like it can lead to physical issues, fatigue, sleep disorders, headaches, stomach problems.

Look, there's a book called the Body Keep Score. And it's the craziest thing that how much stress is held in your body just like naturally in your back in your neck. And that's 10 man. you look stressed, you look tense, that's, that's like our body adjusts and adapts and absorbs all of this stress. And it, and it, and it keeps counting mental health.

This is, again, this is the impact on creatives. It, it, it it, it messes with the mental health. It can lead to health problems like depression, anxiety, decreased self-esteem. It can, it can jam up our spiritual health. Our, the, the whole piece of, of being inadequate or failure. It can, it can taint our view of God or how God views us. It can mess up our emotional health if we're always sad, if we're always detached, if we, if we're always frustrated, like there's great impact on

us comprehensively. Now let's take it a step further. It impacts our work the way it impacts our work. It impacts the quality of our work. You mean creatives do well in creative spaces or creative seasons or creative environments, creative rhythms, all of those things. That's where the, that's where the work comes from. In the last episode, I talked about how creatives put all of their heart, mind, body and soul into their work.

Like that's just their part of their expression that's how they express themselves and they connect all of these different things. This is how they, this is how this is how they operate and process and think through. But the quality of work decreases, the quality of work decreases. The other thing that it stops is consistency. One of the booby traps that I try to set for, even for my own self is like I keep saying that every week I have a new podcast.

That is a piece of accountability for me because if I keep telling y'all, I'm gonna start to feel guilty if I don't, if I don't come up with that. But consistency, consistency is a big thing. Burnout can make it difficult for creatives to main, to maintain consistency in their work, that might mean missing deadlines, underperforming, unable to maintain a steady output of creative content.

So not only does it impact their, their physical mental health, spiritual health and emotional health, but also impacts their work. Another big thing, it impacts their relationship with the church. This is a hard one for me. This is a hard one for me because I've seen so many people in the creative space, walk away from the church because of burnout.

And like a lot never get back in, never get back in the name, never join the local body, never utilize these, these gifts that God has given them for the kingdom anymore. Ever again because of burnout. There's a few things that happened. The with the relationship with the church dis disengagement burnouts, burnout can cause creatives to disengage from their roles within the church.

Leading to a decrease in participation and involvement in church activities, disengagement, relational strain. It puts a relational strain on the relationship with the church. A burnt out creative may become irritable, withdrawn, less cooperative. A affecting team dynamics. It's that person that's always in staff meeting, insulting, it's that creative.

That's always that's, that's the last to get there. And the first one to leave is the one that only does the, you mean the, the, the bare necessities that you mean the bottom and not coming to anything extra curricular. It's just that relational same and then a negative, negative perspective or negative perception. I think there's been like a word that we've been hearing a lot of this year has been church hurt, church, burn up.

A lot of that church hurt comes from an overtrained need for volunteers to make this thing work. It's this overstrained. We like, we need you to show up, we need to do this, we need to do that, we need to do this. And, and, and, and folks say like, I can't handle that. I can't manage, I'm tired, I need a break. I need to spend time with my kids. I need to all these other kind of things and it's like, well, we and not, not every church but it's like, yo, like we need you to serve, we need you to be

here in place because if you don't put out the signs, who me, no one's gonna put the signs up. And then folks just get frustrated and burnt out and exhausted and just say, you know what? I can't do this at all. I can't, I can't, I can't make the one more rehearsal. I can't play one more Sunday. I can't sing. I can't lead, I can't do nothing. So the relationship with the church, a negative perception.

So those are not only the triggers but like the, the what that burnout impacts, it impacts everything. Pastor, it impacts the church, it impacts the individual. It impacts their emotional health, it impacts their spiritual health, it impacts every aspect of their life. That's why I gotta take this seriously. I'm serious about this, you know, like it's II I don't, I don't wanna be lighthearted at all about this because I'm very serious about this.

And I've seen too many, too many good ones go down because of burnout and because of lack of this next of, of this next thing is setting healthy boundaries. I think that one of the big things that we can do to help fight burnout is set healthy boundaries. A few things. I'm a few quick takeaways like I do every week and I'm going to get out of your way.

But a way to be able to process pray and develop a healthy rhythm for yourself as it pertains to the church is set healthy boundaries. Point number one, set, regular work hours, decide to start time and end time. It might be you collaborating with your, with your pastor or your supervisor or whatever the case may be. One thing that this will do, it will help you create a space and a time that you're doing work for the church or the creative work for the church.

But it also has a time where you can set for your personal time and you do not let those two coincide. Your work time does not bleed into your play time, your play time does not bleed into your work time. You cannot have this ebb and flow all day long thing where it's just, well, I'm doing a little bit of this. I'm doing a little bit of that. I'm, I'm, I work here.

I rest here. I work set, work hours, set your rest hours and do not play and intermingle with those things are and make them regular. One thing that I've recognized this year has been consistency. the more consistent that I've been, the more, the more rhythm I've kind of created for myself. and the more opportunities for like rest rehabilitation, creativity and to kind of eliminate burnout, or at least move away from burnout.

So set regular work hours, be intentional about that and when you're off, you're off. iphone has something amazing called focus. Do not disturb, leave me alone. There's things that you can do to booby trap and set yourself up. turn your phone notifications off. take your email off your phone. That's a big one for me. Take your email off your phone, take it off your phone, have it available during your work hours, your, your office hours, take you, you know what I mean?

I it ain't that deep, it ain't that deep. So one set regular work hours, two and this can be difficult, but this was helpful for me during the pandemic specifically, but use a dedicated workspace. right here where I am right now. This is my dedicated workspace. So this is my desk. I got all my stuff, all my little two dads and things. But for me, it like it helps me turn on to, ok, it's time to work.

I remember a friend of mine passed in Jersey. We, we did a workout. It was called Insanity. It was just like the at home workout. DVD S. Y'all remember DVD s but we had DVD S back in the day. Anyways. So before like church staff meetings and stuff like that, we would do insanity. First thing in the morning. but it was always very hard for me because it was in the living room and the living room is where I rest.

It's where I retreat. It's where I chill. It's where I eat. Like that's, that, that was my home. That's my pad. It's hard for me to turn into a workout person. who's jumping around doing lunches and carrying on in my living room. Why? Because my living room has been a place of rest and retreat, not for working out. So there's just mental things, mental triggers.

Maybe if you, if you ain't that deep, if it ain't that deep for you, then it ain't that deep. But for me, it was so having a dedicated work space, a space that when I go sit down, I can be in the work, I can be in work mode. Everything I need is at my fingertips like that's helpful. And when I'm not at this space, I'm not taking my computer upstairs and working in my kids' room.

I'm not doing it. I'm I'm this is, this is where I do my work. be selective with the projects depending on your situation. You can't say no to everything but some things should not, cannot fall under your auspices. Certain things you need to say, hey, I don't feel that I can manage that right now or I don't feel that I can handle that right now. Or I don't feel that that even falls under my job description.

be intentional and clear about what is your role, what are you responsible of doing? And how many hours or how much time can you commit to him to these things? Because if some things need to be done and even it just make sure you have some level of open communication, even with whatever you mean, your supervisor or your pastor or whatever. Say, hey, listen, these projects that you gave me are gonna take me x amount of time.

What's a deadline on these projects and a priority list so I can work on what's needed if you need something for this week, tell me what those things are and then give me a deadline for everything else because I need to be able to prioritize these things and what to say what, what I can say no to. So be be selective. Number three is be selective with your projects.

Taking on too much can quickly lead to burnout period number four, prioritize your health, take breaks. One thing that I started doing all of my phone meetings, I, I take them on a walk. If if someone wants to talk or if I don't need to be in front of my computer, if it's just brainstorming or vision casting or I dating or whatever the case may be, I always do it on a walk.

So instead of sitting behind this computer, sitting on a zoom, I would ask more. So, hey, would you mind if we hop on a phone call instead or if it's already gonna be a phone call, I'll just throw my shoes on and, go for a stroller around the block. So, a big thing for me with that is I've been having pretty bad back problems. I got her diss, two of them.

and I've been trying to, walk and walk more and stretch more and get up more so I can, not have to go through the surgery. So prioritize your health because for me, that's a very big thing. I don't want to go through the surgery. So I'm trying to eat healthy. I, I started taking supplements. I try, I exercise regularly, make sure you get enough sleep, get enough sleep, get enough sleep.

Part of your sleeping piece is this is, and I fall into this trap of ill overwork, overwork, overwork and feel like I need some time for myself. I'll spend time with my wife, spend time with my kids. I do, I work all day, do all this other stuff, work on all these businesses, all these projects. And then at the end of the day, it's 9, 10 o'clock at night.

And I'm like, well, I need some time for myself. So I'm gonna watch Netflix till midnight while I do something like that's time. I need to be sleeping. But if there was a rhythm and a consistency of work hours and time and boundary, then when nine o'clock comes, I've already had my time to be able to rest and you know what I mean? Not feel like I'm, I'm behind the gun.

So prioritize your health, your health. Here's another big thing. That's a little, it's a little interesting. Some folk aren't good with this but like practice, silence and solitude. Just practice that just, just lean in and be in quiet, awkward moments. Look out the window. don't turn on the music when you get in the car. Like just al allow your mind to roam, allow your mind to rest chill with the dopamine stuff.

Always scrolling like practice silence and solitude. I can get more into that. But that's gonna be the next episode. I wanna, I wanna move on. five more quick ones. I'm gonna, I'm gonna move pretty quick. I'm trying to make these episodes like 20 minutes or less, but I'm not doing good on that. number 65 more of them out your way. Number six, schedule down time, schedule, down time, actively schedule and I mean, put them in your phone, put a nap in your phone, put a walk in your phone,

put, a beach trip to in, in your phone, put a barbecue in your phone. put a date night in your phone. Put it on your calendar. hold yourself accountable to it. Don't, just don't book your calendar up and just say, and then just say, hey, yeah, I, I'm gonna spend time with the kids. When thought I went somewhere. I'm still here. When show me on your calendar.

were you gonna take a nap? Yeah, I'm, yeah, I need a nap. I put it on your calendar, take a siesta, take a rest scheduled downtime. put hobbies on your calendar, block them off like they were a meeting when you call me. If I'm doing something in my scheduled downtime, I'm in a meeting. There's a scheduled meeting on my phone. My wife don't like that no more, but it's a, it's a thing.

So schedule down time in intentionally do it. This is I alluded to this one already. Number seven is limit technology use just set certain boundaries of how you deal with technology, how you operate, technology, turning off your emails, all that kind of stuff. Number eight, this is a big one. Communicate your boundaries, communicate your, let your your clients, your colleagues, your family, your worship leader, your pastor, your who whoever know your super, whatever, let

them know about your boundaries. Do not have all these boundaries set for yourself and then keep them tucked into inside. Let them know like, hey, go through even the list. I just said, hey, listen, these these are, these are my, in the work hours for the week, if that works with you, can we collaborate with this? Can you let me know the priority list?

Can you, can we work through a schedule for the month or for the quarter of expectations and all that kind of stuff? Because I, I need to make sure that I'm out of here about 4 30. I out of here about 3 30. I gotta pick up my kids. I'm gonna do another hour between six o'clock and 7 30 just to make sure this gets dealt with. But, but this, the, this is, this is what I'm gonna be able to do in this season.

Communicate those boundaries, communicate them. Clear communication can prevent misunderstandings and protect your boundaries. Number nine, seek support when needed if you're burnt out, if you're already all of these things you're saying? Yo, Dre, I'm there already. seek support, communicate, share. Let them know that you're having a hard time.

Ask for help, ask to see what you can get outsourced because oftentimes we'll just continue to take on things and take on things and take on things just because we want to serve. We wanna support, we want to be a help. We know there's a lot of other things going on. We know the pastor got a lot going on like, so we'll just take on stuff and take on stuff and take on stuff.

And then become extremely overwhelmed if you are there or you get to that point, seek support. You, email me, I got your back dog on it. Reimagine a worship at gmail dot com. But we'll talk like you'll seek support when needed. and then learn the next necessary steps to be able to gather that. And then last thing, the very last thing I would encourage you to do a regular self assessment, ask yourself on a regular basis.

How, how am I feeling? How am I doing? How am I, how am I feeling about this? There's a couple of tests that that I have and I can even put links them in the in the notes in the show notes for this. But there's just kind of just, there's just little tests to kind of gauge where I'm at how I'm feeling, how I'm processing. What are some pinpoints for me right now that are or things that I'm struggling with or frustrated about?

Just take a to take, take a, take a general, a general list. I would ask you, listen, I will go through that list personally if I were you like, you know what I mean? You can have this list is yours, take it If you are you constantly fatigued, do you have a loss of motivation? Diminished creativity, cynicism and detachment, decreased productivity, difficulty concentrating, frustrating, frustrated and I irritable, changes in sleep or appetite, neglecting personal needs,

feeling of inadequacy or failure. Are you dealing with any of these things as a clear sign? So I would ask yourself this regularly as, as often as you feel like you need to. because what ends up happening is I'm gonna say this and I'm gonna close. what ends up happening is we are, are, are like when our iphone battery dies, we can turn that thing, we can plug it in for five minutes.

Get us up to 1919% 20% just to get us out the red. It's green but it's not full. I can make something, I can make a phone call. I can get you to a destination. I can get a project done but II I don't, I'm not, I'm not full and the red line is around the corner. Depletion is around the corner, hurt is around the corner. Me. A resignation letter is around the corner.

So figure out those ways to not just get you to 20% to, not just to get you just out of the red. How can you take yourself to 80 to 90 operate from there? Now, ministry is difficult being a church. Creative is difficult time is gonna, it's gonna slowly deteriorate. It's natural, it's going to happen. You are going to output more than you, more than you personally investing it.

It's, it is what it is, especially if you, if, if, if you're married, especially if you have kids, especially if you have older parents that you're caring for family, that you're caring for whatever like you are going to output more than you are. pouring back in, take those regular assessments, ask yourself the necessary questions, pray process and and, and ask for help when, when necessary.

So listen, I appreciate y'all. I appreciate y'all. This one was a little bit longer, a little bit more sensitive topic. especially like just for me, I, I have a, I have a real heart and passion around this but I pray that that could have been a a been of a help. I would love to connect with you just hit me on Instagram. or you can, like I said, real talk, you can hop on my website. hear more about my this reimagine worship conference is happening.

It might be, there might be a virtual option for it. We'll see, we'll see how all that works out. And then honestly, we talk any questions if you need someone to talk to, you need a friend, someone that, that, that, that you need to help, help navigate through this through this season. email me reimagine the worship at gmail dot com. So until next time I appreciate y'all over and out