Technology, AI and Spirituality with Aditee Vora, Somerset Drayton and Jonty Cornford

Take a quick moment to think about how much technology has changed during your lifetime? What was the height of tech when you were a kid? Can you divide your life up into before and after internet connection?

The pace of technological change can be hard to keep up with — but without a doubt it has an impact on our lives, our communities — and our spirituality.

In this episode, Aditee Vora, Somerset Drayton and Jonty Conford join me to explore questions around AI, social media, spiritual formation….touching on the things we’re grateful for as well as the things we worry about.

This is part 4 in our five episode series brought to you by Spiritual Misfits in collaboration with UME’s Pulse team.

You can watch this episode on YouTube or download the accompanying discussion guide to chat through these big topics with your own crew, where ever you find yourself. 

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Will Small: It is so good to be here with you Aditee, Somerset, Jonty Thank you for joining me for a conversation part of a collaboration between spiritual misfits and the uniting mission and education pulse team We're exploring big, hairy questions that relate to the world that young people, emerging generations are growing up within, and what kind of faith and spirituality is actually going to be worthwhile on planet Earth.

[00:01:06] In the current time that we're living in so looking at lots of big topics and this conversation is going to primarily look at the kind of large overlapping areas of social media, AI, just the rapidly shifting pace of technology. Before we get into it I'd love to just hear from each of you. Just introduce yourself however you feel comfortable and give a sentence or two on why this topic has significance to you.

[00:01:32] Like, why are you on the panel? Why don't we start with Aditee? 

[00:01:37] Aditee Vora: Okay. My name is Aditee. I work with the comms and marketing department at the Synod of New South Wales and ACT. Particularly in the social media genre. I think what particularly interested interests me about this topic is how people think that AI is not is a competitor more than a friend.

[00:01:58] And I think that really interests me. I'm here to talk about that more. 

[00:02:04] Will Small: Wonderful. Thanks, Aditee. How about you, Somerset? 

[00:02:07] Somerset Drayton: Hi, my name is Somerset and I work as the children and young people, and I double a little bit with young adults and families at Willoughby Uniting Church. And so what interests me about this topic is the fact that like AI and technology intersects very heavily with the main core group of people I work with, which is Gen Alpha.

[00:02:27] And so learning more about it, but also it is something I'm passionate about. Connect pretty heavily with and being able to teach them is pretty important 

[00:02:36] Will Small: hundred percent so excited that you are part of our chat today Somerset John T. Hello 

[00:02:42] Jonty Cornford: my name is John T. I currently work as a pastor at a church in the eastern suburbs of Sydney called United Heart and Soul running a ministry called Filthy Hope that is largely based around a podcast.

[00:02:53] And it's. It's core audience isn't just young people, but we do that with a large focus on, yeah, young people and what spirituality and faith looks like in a way that earnestly, interacts with the realities of what living life looks like in the modern world. Yeah. A lot of my time at work is spent on social media, posting and interacting with people digitally and not face to face.

[00:03:16] So, I guess I'm really interested in how faith and faith communities can be fostered in an online space. 

[00:03:22] Yeah. 

[00:03:24] Will Small: There is so much for us to talk about in this conversation, a lot more than we're going to be able to get to, but first, just, really important question top of all of our minds.

[00:03:34] Did you have a point in time in your childhood when you had to listen to the sound of the internet connecting, I don't know if you want to jump in with your own impression, but was that a part of your childhood? 

[00:03:47] Aditee Vora: Quite a bit, actually. But that only started when I was in the eighth grade or the ninth grade because we had nobody to connect with on the internet, like not my dad or my mom.

[00:03:57] So this is when I was in the higher I was in the highest in high school and we had like awkward MySpace and all of those things come up. 

[00:04:06] Will Small: MSN messenger? 

[00:04:07] Aditee Vora: Yes, correct. So I think that's when. I was really forced by dad to get something installed with the internet. Yeah. I remember that go on for four years or five years till I finished college.

[00:04:18] Will Small: How about you Somerset? Was there like a clear point A and B in childhood broken out before and after internet connection? 

[00:04:26] Somerset Drayton: Not really. I wasn't super conscious before the age of four. No, but I was born in like 2002. So that's not really a part of my memory, but I do remember having a family computer and things.

[00:04:39] And if too many people were doing too many things on our like wifi, when I was growing up, it was. Very slow but I believe you are what 

[00:04:49] Will Small: they call a digital native 

[00:04:53] Jonty Cornford: and Jonty yeah I mean I have some of my earliest memories so like between the age of. Being born through to four or five is having the family computer with dial up internet and hearing that noise whenever, you wanted to play flash games on some website you'd have to wait for it to boot up and you couldn't use the phone at the same time.

[00:05:12] But that was very much like pre primary school. So from primary school we had internet, like the computer lab and it was very literate with Computers in the internet from a pretty early age. 

[00:05:23] Will Small: Yeah. Yeah, so technology has taken massive shifts in each of our lifetimes sitting here and it continues to be in a kind of exponential shift right now with the emergence of kind of generative AI.

[00:05:36] My first mobile phone, which I got when I was, 13 or 14 years old was a Nokia 3315. That thing, it couldn't connect to the internet. It didn't have any color screen, no camera. And then there's this gradual introduction of phones with cameras and, internet at home and flash games and and then, broadband and then the iPhone.

[00:05:57] In the lifespan of Gen Zed which is those who were born between 1997 and 2012, Facebook was started in 2004, the first iPhone came out in 2007, Instagram came out in 2010. All these things that are now a very normal part of our lives were actually quite recently introduced to the world.

[00:06:20] How much do you think as you reflect personally, Technology, social media, the internet, these kind of forces that are a big part of our daily lives, how much do you think they have impacted I guess the way that you have grown and developed and emerged as a young adult or, a human being in the world?

[00:06:41] Jonte, what do you reckon the role has been of those things on your formation? 

[00:06:44] Jonty Cornford: Yeah, definitely like socially. From high school, but even probably earlier, but definitely from high school onwards, most of my social groups almost congregated around different social platforms and that changed as new ones came and went.

[00:07:00] So like I was, I don't know, I don't remember when Snapchat like first existed, but like my friendship groups. Communicated through Snapchat and so that was how I live my life socially for a couple years and then it moved on to probably Instagram or Twitter at some point and so for me yeah definitely that was just like has always been a reality of my social life is using internet and but also that sort of transitory way that.

[00:07:28] It would hop from platform to platform every couple of years. You 

[00:07:32] Will Small: get left behind. I'm left behind, like TikTok, Snapchat. No, thank you. But yeah. How about you, Somerset, as someone who engages with people as well that are younger and really, at the front of Embracing these technologies 

[00:07:47] Somerset Drayton: yeah i'd like social media is a huge part of everyone's life right now like it's the biggest way to market what your business is it's the biggest way to connect with other people it also is the most informative piece of like where you.

[00:08:01] can interact with people. So a lot of people are getting their cultural or international information from TikTok or Instagram or Facebook. And so social media is a huge part of everyone's life. And I think as Jonty said, it's really interesting how the kind of, um, development of how we use those platforms has happened at first it was very much our social groups creating plans for where we're going to go next on Snapchat or Instagram, like us posting photos of the fun things that we did, and now TikTok becoming like a source of information and becoming a place where people can create photos.

[00:08:41] Their business, essentially, but it does definitely have downsides, especially for the younger people. So a lot of that constant feeding of information and things means that connecting IRL or connecting with people now doesn't have as much of a consistent hit of like dopamine and of like information.

[00:09:07] So when I'm talking face to face with people, I know that I'm able to connect with you and have a genuine connection. But for younger people, I've definitely seen that there's not as much. Like excitement than it is scrolling video after video and being fed all this different information and colour and.

[00:09:29] Slack it's really interesting seeing how social media can connect us and keep us informed but it means that we can sometimes not be as connected. 

[00:09:39] Will Small: Yeah and like you're getting out there is. A genuine relationship between what is happening in our brain what is happening in our biology and the way that we're using technology how about you Aditee.

[00:09:52] Aditee Vora: I think one of the biggest shifts which really has a big impact on me was the way we played games when we were kids. It was more about out, going outdoors and, seeing your friends. I remember when we had school vacations, we would always have a schedule with our friends, which would be going for morning walks, coming back, going to the church or to the temple coming back and then just having a breakfast, playing outdoor games like badminton and all of those things for the afternoon.

[00:10:20] And so that has seen a huge change in the generation that came after us. Which includes Gen Z's, because I think a lot of their games were on the phone as well. And that, and I feel like they have missed the whole point of interacting, laughing, or, cracking jokes on that level of games than, how we have on the phone at the moment where you're communi When you are definitely enjoying the games, but then it's with somebody you don't even know.

[00:10:47] It was somebody you've never met or it's with somebody who just share the same experience of playing the game with you, but nothing else probably. So I think that's a very big shift for me in terms of interaction. 

[00:10:59] Will Small: Yeah. Yeah. It's huge. Yeah, when I was a kid. My social network were largely around people that lived within walking distance in my neighborhood.

[00:11:09] Whereas now, and I'm not saying this with a value judgment, but a young person might have a network through their kind of online gaming or something that is truly. International potentially and anytime we do get into conversations about technology, it can be easy to either demonize or to idealize and we can think that it's the answer to everything or it's it's the problem with everything and sometimes it's a bit of both.

[00:11:32] The other kind of false move that we can make is to say that technology is just neutral and I know people that work in the space of AI and ethics and technology and they will say anything that's been designed. By humans is not neutral because design is full of choices and some of those choices make things more addictive, for example.

[00:11:52] So it's a very complicated conversation is what I'm saying. We don't want to idolize. We don't want to demonize. We also don't want to act like it's just neutral. Yep. But as we think about how technology interacts with spirituality and what it means to grow up in a world of that kind of digital connection, which is a reality, we can't just disconnect from it at this point.

[00:12:11] What do you see as some of the positive opportunities? That technology, social media, AI, the interconnectedness of all these things. What do you see as opportunities that it offers in terms of the development of spirituality, maybe in a more positive light to begin with? 

[00:12:30] Jonty Cornford: I think one of the quite clear positives for me is And that I have benefited from as a young person growing up is the access that you have to just about anything.

[00:12:44] I remember as a curious 14 year old asking about going up to the youth pastor and asking, Oh, I want to know more about this thing that you said. And he was able to say to me, here's a website, here's a YouTube link, here's a whatever. And I was off to the races. And the thing that's interesting to me there is that curiosity has always been there for.

[00:13:04] Just human curiosity. But the way in which you follow that curiosity has been sped up so insanely in the last 20 years and continues to speed up that really the, it's such an exciting thing for me to internalize and put into my own practices that my knowledge, my, my ability to learn is, Only limited by the ability to which I want to go and learn it because everything is just readily accessible which is incredible but then that'll obviously also has a flip side to the effect of that can have but 

[00:13:40] Will Small: that's.

[00:13:41] Yes huge so there's a like democratisation of. Accessibility of information. 

[00:13:48] Somerset Drayton: And definitely like we can't discount that as something that is so important like all of the different forms of media that can take like videos or like articles to read or things that are like podcasts or clips or things like it can all be very readily accessible and helps with your spiritual growth because you're learning and you're you have the intent to learn and you're able to.

[00:14:13] like dive headfirst into it yourself and have that information. It is tricky with like creditable sources and things, but there are great specific resources that are targeted for like making the Bible more digestible for children and things. So there's great resources that are available. And also the fact that technology does inherently.

[00:14:36] Connect, as I was talking about earlier, like the outreach is really important with making sure that your spiritual community is connected. And so things like having sermons live streamed means that families who are unable to come to their home church for whatever reason are able to watch it. And so technology is accessible, not only for your own spiritual growth, but for like spiritual connections.

[00:15:00] Amongst people because it means you can interact with and be challenged by people in your spiritual community online. And 

[00:15:08] Aditee Vora: I think tagging on with what Summer said said I think one of the other important points is access to diverse perspectives. In terms of spirituality, in terms of just understanding to enrich your practices or under giving, having a broader understanding of what the other person, where the other person comes from, or what are the beliefs so that you can direct your mind in that direction.

[00:15:32] So I think that's very important as well. Yeah. 

[00:15:34] Will Small: We're sitting here recording a podcast episode that people will listen to in lots of different places. And the feedback I regularly get from people who listen to Spiritual Misfits is that it does help them to feel like they're not alone with some of the questions they have.

[00:15:49] And they're exposed to a whole range of different ways of thinking through some of those questions or challenges that they face. So that's huge. Yeah. And we're literally participating in what we hope is the positive. Kind of spiritual opportunity that it can bring and even in the connection side of things.

[00:16:07] I know that I've, for example, sat with young people who have been in very difficult spaces in terms of their mental health. And a gaming community has been the thing that has helped them to not feel like they're completely alone in the world. And still complicated, but we can't underestimate the power that even some, a piece of content can have to lead towards a real and meaningful sense of connection.

[00:16:33] Somerset Drayton: It also, to add to that point, helps to put in context the things you're learning. So if you're able to. interrelated to something that you can understand more clearly, like games, it helps you to digest it in a way that's helpful, like learning about that information. For example, my church doesn't do it much anymore, but like our kids love games and like gaming and, Things like Minecraft and stuff are really big parts of their personalities, and instead of judging that, we definitely embrace and encourage that as something, as like an outlet for them to learn, because it helps with creativity and making sure that these children feel like they're being heard, and it's just a very good way of connecting without discounting these very specific parts of technology.

[00:17:26] Aditee Vora: And I think one of the main other things as well is the art of storytelling. I think that's one of the biggest takeaways when it comes to community and, building the community. I think just understanding that there are other people in the same shoes as you, no matter where they are, if they are in the scattered communities or if they are in rural areas, they still have the same beliefs or, they still understand the same diverse perspective that you have.

[00:17:53] So I think just those kinds of things is very important as well. 

[00:17:56] Will Small: Yeah. We could all I think switch to being very, we could sound a bit older. By starting to talk about our concerns about social media and coming across almost a little bit like, Oh, young people today, they don't have, without trying to lean too much into that.

[00:18:13] I think we're all relatively young. What are some of the things that do producing you just a little bit of uneasiness or some questions or uncertainty? around the formation of young people and their spirituality in a world of hyper digital connection. Again, without sounding like we're like, sitting back in judgment.

[00:18:35] Cause I think I speak for myself. I often wrestle with the same things that I could externalize it and say, young people today are so addicted to technology. I'm so addicted to technology, but what are some of those concerns that we have, or some of those things that, maybe make us feel a bit uneasy as we think about this space.

[00:18:53] Aditee Vora: I think for me, it would be the impact on mental health that would show because a lot of the times you've just left feeling lonely, even when you've, spoken to a lot of people, you're chatted with other people and you've, um, gone through your daily social media intake. when you come to the real world, which is just keeping your phone on the side or just, shutting your laptop.

[00:19:15] There's a sense of loneliness that I think is very is not a good space for a lot of people to be in. Of course that affects only when you're using social media to an extent or more than recommended. Because again, there's no denying that there's there's a good and a bad side and a bad side is really easily accessible as well in, in that sense.

[00:19:37] Yeah. Yeah, mental health. And we have 

[00:19:40] Will Small: evidence that speaks of the negative impact of, certain kinds of social media. Yeah, 

[00:19:47] Jonty Cornford: there are two big ones for me and they coexist as two sides of the same thing. The first being I can't remember one of you were, Mention this before that but the pace at which information is transferred on social media and by that literally in a editing sense like you're looking at a video every second and a half but also just the way in which social media you just receive you're receiving messages constantly I found and this is just the reflection of on how I've noticed it start to affect my behavior and my.

[00:20:23] Biology is that does affect the way you communicate with other people and all of a sudden what I think and to bring spirituality into it as well the eternal. Like calming presence of Christ is so at odds with what I just I refer to as the editing pace of social media I said that's a thing that I found but also this and that kind of like I said.

[00:20:49] Code that these two things coexist this I want to say four or five years ago some of you might. Be able to correct me on this is when Instagram in particular switched from a follower algorithm to a discovery algorithm so if people think about when you look at your phone how like the percentage of what is content that you have chosen to see like accounts you followed.

[00:21:11] Whatever versus stuff that Instagram just thinks you might want to see. That's due to, they switched over to this thing called a discovery algorithm, where based on your patterns, they feed you content that they think is going to, that you will enjoy and therefore keep looking at Instagram, for example.

[00:21:27] And the concern I have with that is that can very quickly create a feedback loop of information and is at odds to the thing we were just talking about having access to everything, the monopolization of information and knowledge. All of a sudden you're being fed a tighter and tighter feedback loop of information.

[00:21:43] So those are two things that certainly I've noticed in my own habits start to affect me. 

[00:21:49] Will Small: And I think it's like crucial to note there what often gets left out of the conversation is that if it's free for you to use, if the platform is free for you to use, you're the product. And so that discovery algorithm is about shaping your spending habits.

[00:22:05] And we might think that Meta are just being really generous by offering this free way to connect, but it's quite insidious when you think about it. 

[00:22:14] Somerset Drayton: It's a catch. Intent is so important when consuming media as well. So like coming, if you're mindlessly scrolling and interacting with. TikToks, for example, it then, as Jonty said, creates your For You page, which is for you, specifically curated, built brick by your thoughts and the things that you're liking and interacting with.

[00:22:38] It is you. And that can seem really attractive to a lot of people, which is the fact that every bit of social media that they're consuming is all about them and they love it because it is a part of them and what they can consume. And unfortunately, real life is not like that. It's difficult to find things that are so closely tailored to who you are.

[00:22:59] And so similar to Jonty, I find that echo chamber to be harmful sometimes, and I worry that it does create. Secular views about a lot of things that may or may not be helpful. So there's lots of like spheres of thinking or people in particular that may not be breeding great information. But if you're constantly interacting with that's all the information you're going to be getting.

[00:23:25] And it's really tricky. And with spirituality, being challenged is important because our faith is built on challenge and growth and being able to feel like we are progressing in our faith and learning in our faith. And if you're constantly being fed this echo chamber of information, it's really difficult to grow.

[00:23:48] And it's also difficult to ask questions because you feel like you're You've got all the information you need because your For You page is specifically for you. So of course it would know everything you want to know. But really, that's what creates these views that are stuck a little bit in the mud.

[00:24:07] And so it does worry me that mindsets can be changed, but also can stay that way and not be challenged. And also as Jonty said, meditating or meditative worship is really tricky when your brain is thinking about all of these things that you get fed every day. Thinking about the fact that your brain has to process that when you go to sleep.

[00:24:31] How are you meant to be processing that when you're trying to be quiet and worship or pray? There are so many things and crises and international things that are happening that you have access to and have a connection to directly. And it's really hard to get away from it, not that you need to avoid it, but it is tricky when all of this information happens, your brain is not quiet about it.

[00:24:57] At the 

[00:24:57] Jonty Cornford: very least it's important to be aware of. 

[00:24:59] Somerset Drayton: It's important to be aware of and informed, but it's tricky when it feels and social media does feed to you, That it's your responsibility to fix it. And so a lot of that is that for you page telling you these things and making you their product, but also the fact that it is a little bit on you and that knowledge is really tricky of I'm being fed a lot of things that are like seem to be controversial.

[00:25:25] Is that who I am? But really it's the things that you're just interacting with and that your algorithm is taking pieces of and creating. 

[00:25:33] Will Small: I tend to think that our spirituality actually is a humanising process. And sometimes some of what we're talking about here can be quite dehumanising. Particularly when, for example, you are exposed to all the crises in the world which are very important and we ought to respond and speak up and use whatever influence we have.

[00:25:55] But there can be this sense that we become part of this machine where it's like I need to always respond to and speak about everything that is happening everywhere all at once. And you can't as a human and part of what a spiritual practice can do is to right size you into going this is what I can do but also this is where I surrender this is where I have to just, embrace stillness or step away.

[00:26:20] Or sit with the tension of those things. And I do think that if you're only being formed, if we're only being formed by what we're fed in our, our social media feeds, it's not necessarily developing in us the muscle or the maturity or the wisdom to be able to know when to stop or to be still or to reflect or to meditate.

[00:26:38] What about you Aditee, how's this all kind of sitting with your experience and reflections around these things? 

[00:26:44] Aditee Vora: Yeah. I think it's, sorry, I'm a bit blank at the moment if you can ask somebody. Yeah. I've got another, 

[00:26:53] Will Small: I've got a more specific question for I just, that was my bad. I gave you a nothing question.

[00:26:58] Oh, no. 

[00:27:00] Sorry. 

[00:27:01] Will Small: So a lot of what we've been talking about is the current state of play in terms of social media. But as we've said, things are constantly changing. And one of the things that has been, I suppose the more recent accelerator and talking point. Has been what AI is doing that will change how we use these platforms and how we engage with each other.

[00:27:21] We're in the relatively early days of generative AI, but it's being spoken about as that next, exponential kind of shift that will change how we work and play and connect and worship potentially. You mentioned at the beginning, that difference between seeing AI as a competitor or as a companion.

[00:27:39] Do you want to share a little bit about. Some of that attitude. 

[00:27:42] Aditee Vora: Sure. So I think AI has been with us not too long ago. It's been a year and a half. If you want to talk about chat to BT and other things followed. And I think at the beginning, the perception was that people are going to, people are going to lose their jobs and AI is completely going to replace us because of how accurate it's going to be over a period of time.

[00:28:01] And I think I don't necessarily agree with that because I think AI is here. It depends. It's for the people and by the people. It depends on how you use it. I think essentially AI is here to help us out. It is here to give us ideas or suggestions or give us an easier path to follow rather than sitting and brainstorming with 10 people.

[00:28:23] I think you can just ask AI, but that doesn't mean it's the end product. The end product only is after you have taken the suggestions from the AI or ideas from the AI, and you've made something of that product. With your own sort of intellectual as well. And that's what you're presenting to the world, because you don't forget that you're still presenting to the humans.

[00:28:43] You're not presenting to a machine, but it needs that human touch, no matter what you do. And I think that's a very important take. And it's us, the community, the country or this, or anywhere that you are, it's going to be beneficial from it, the development and the growth is going to increase exponentially.

[00:29:03] For me working in the social media stream, I think the difference that I've particularly experienced is earlier, I used to do my work at 10 X, but with AI, I'm able to do that with 50 X the same amount of work I'm able to do it in a short period of time, but then the quality of work has increased.

[00:29:22] And I think that benefits the community at the end, no matter what you're doing. And that's the beauty of AI. It's not only it's not limited to social media. It's any and every field that you want to work in. And I think it's just a companion. It's not to compete with us. It's not going to replace the human touch, human feelings, and, other human relationships.

[00:29:44] So I really don't agree with AI is here to compete with us. 

[00:29:49] Will Small: It's interesting what you're highlighting is partly that the questions that we bring to something can really shape how we view it, how we use it, and people do bring different intentions and questions. But if we ask, how is this thing going to replace me in the world is a very different question to how could I use this thing to enhance what I want to do in the world.

[00:30:09] Somerset and Jonty, do you feel generally optimistic or pessimistic or something else when you think about the direction that AI is heading in? 

[00:30:19] Somerset Drayton: It's tricky. Both. I go between. So definitely I'm a creative, so I do a lot of things that are very art based and lots of things that veer more towards the kind of creative space.

[00:30:32] And I feel like AI is not an enemy. I don't view it as something that is here to take over, but I definitely think that. It has had a pretty big impact on our viewpoint of what the limits of this technology are, and what can be done with technology, whether or not that's a good thing. Which is an interesting dynamic in what is authentic and what is AI, which comes up a lot recently, which is specifically in the creative space.

[00:31:05] Like. How can we discern what is done by a person and what is done by technology and does that matter if it's done with intent are really big questions that are coming up at the moment and it's tricky to answer because there's not really a particular answer right now as to whether or not it's a terrible thing that AI is weaving itself more into the creative space or whether or not it's a good thing, but it's, It really depends, I think, on our intention, and I really like the point that we are not supposed to feel as though it's against us, nor are we supposed to rely solely on it as the end goal.

[00:31:49] I think it's really great. To view and I like that view of AI as the stepping stones to help and so things like chat GPT that can help generate ideas. That's not necessarily like the be all and end all of what happens. It's more the stepping stones to get there. So it's tricky to view AI as helpful sometimes when definitely Yeah, definitely.

[00:32:11] I struggle a bit with the fact that people who have dedicated a lot of time into that particular field can get, let's say, bested by AI? But I think it's interesting to view it as a tool to aid rather than a tool to punish. 

[00:32:30] Jonty Cornford: I definitely think that in the same way that all of the digital platforms that we've developed over the last 20 or 30 years are all tools generative generative AI is just another digital tool.

[00:32:44] And there's a saying that I quite liked like the axe existed for 50, 000 years before someone gave it a handle to hold on to. So I think like all of the other digital tools that we have come up with. In the 21st century it totally depends on the intent and it depends on how we frame it for people to use there's a, I'd recommend people go read this book Stolen Focus by Johan Hari, cause he talks a lot about this stuff, there's a case I was actually in Australia where a bunch of parents in Australia discovered that the lead in the paint that was being used to paint all the schools and homes was having harmful effects on the children and people living and so and the big legal case eventually. Got to the end point at which you can't put lead in paint anymore and the government made sure that was a legal requirement.

[00:33:35] The solution wasn't to get rid of paint, the solution was to make sure that the paint that people use wasn't going to harm them. And so I think when we talk about things like generative AI and chat GPT and even things like Facebook and Instagram, which are all just search engines as well. It's not about.

[00:33:50] Is this harmful therefore let's get rid of it's how are the people that are developing apps to be used inside them how are the people that are using them in workspaces how are the people that are using them in spirituality spaces what's the intent behind those uses and how are we going to create cultures and structures around them like putting a handle on an axe that's going to make them useful and not destructive.

[00:34:16] Will Small: Alright I want to paint a little scenario for you and I want you to. Reflect on how it makes you feel. So the combination of virtual reality and generative AI means that we're not really that far away from a world in which you could put on virtual reality goggles. And basically you could do everything at home from watching a sunrise to going to a church service, connecting, worshipping, and never needing to leave your home and it would all feel incredibly real.

[00:34:48] Does this make you feel positive, negative? Is there something that seems slightly off about us never leaving our homes? And yet having experiences that feel exactly the same. What do you think that kind of speaks to in terms of some of our intuitions about, humanity, connection, community and spirituality?

[00:35:12] Jonty Cornford: I don't know, I'm going to sound like a really old person, but I just think we are as individuals, we're all spiritual, we're all intellectual beings, we're all emotional beings, we're all physical beings as well. And I think something is lost when the physical interaction. Isn't there. And that's not to say that like we talked about before, like very primitive stages of virtual, whether it's events or whatever, can be really useful at getting to things that otherwise you couldn't get to physically and can have proved to be really positive advancements in how we can interact with each other, even in church spaces and in spirituality spaces as well.

[00:35:53] But I think if, when we. Remove the physicality of our being I'd be curious to see what happens I don't know but I my hunch is that something is lost and that I mean I just think about you know for people who've been in a long distance relationship that lack of. Is it like the physical distance does matter and a phone call or a FaceTime doesn't replace being in the room so that's my boomer moment on this podcast 

[00:36:28] Somerset Drayton: [00:36:29] I fully agree with the boomer moment I think I can try to and virtual reality can try to replicate humanity. But it's really tricky when that physicality isn't there in the sense that I think about the new Apple eyeglass that's happening right now, which is a pretty hefty piece of technology, but it is meant to totally immerse your senses into connecting with the digital world in a way that feels really real.

[00:37:01] But, the outside of the apple glass projects a picture of your eyes and face, so that to other people, you seem different. normal. It's scary and I don't really like how it looks, but it's an interesting example of how AI can try to replicate that humanity and the fact that we as people connect so much with eyes and with faces and with facial expressions, but it can't always land because that physicality of connection is so important to how we can connect.

[00:37:35] And that physicality of space and movement and being with them. one another is really tricky to emulate when you are at your core sitting on your couch with headphones on and a big VR headset. It's tricky to feel, at least for me, similar to you, I'd be so curious to see how it would happen and how it would feel.

[00:37:56] And I'm sure that some people would definitely think it's an easier thing, whether or not that's an accessibility issue for them, or if it's I don't know. something in particular that means that it limits their ability to go outside or to be with people. But I think it's really tricky to emulate that physicality because you can try, but it's just not quite right in my opinion.

[00:38:20] Aditee Vora: Yeah, I agree with Somerset and Jonty. I don't think so. It's ever going to completely replace our experience that we would have otherwise without the VR. For example if I'm at a, at Snowy Mountains, I don't think so my feet are gonna feel snowy. It's, I'm always gonna be partial, impartial reality.

[00:38:37] It's never, I don't think so. I, is completely going to replace that. One thing that might just excite me is and that's with all due respect it's the art of storytelling. I think it would take the art of storytelling to a different level altogether. Imagine just learning about the story of Jesus, for example, or, the story of Ramayana is what I follow as a Hindu.

[00:38:59] So I think learning that in the spirituality space would just do wonders, in my opinion, because the story will be taken as it is intended to be taken by the viewer. So I think that is somewhere the good that the VR would be able to help us with and AI. But apart from that it's It's it does make me feel nervous because the, I'm sure a lot of people would agree with me that they, we are like experience we are more into experience, the whole experience of buying a ticket, going to a place.

[00:39:33] I don't think I would value the Eiffel Tower more if I'm just showing it on my VR. I would want to actually achieve the opportunity of, going to Paris and looking at those things. That I've only dreamt of, so I think it would never completely replace for us as humans, because we live on dopamine.

[00:39:52] Will Small: It's really interesting, isn't it? Because in, in each of these answers, potentially you could have somebody say the thing that you're hesitant about has to do with the limitations of the technology, which could be resolved over time. The next version of the Apple vision could be seamless, but I wonder if there's actually something that.

[00:40:13] Those answers are still touching on that. It's not just about the level of development of the technology to sound a little bit Christian here. It's almost about the realm of spirit or the realm of when I sit with somebody, there is actually something between us that cannot be, merely put down to pixels or atoms, but there is something between us that is actually.

[00:40:35] Transcendent or that is spiritual. I suppose to me, this kind of makes me think about, the church is not always great at being like a leading voice in terms of cultural conversations. And that's what these, this little series of conversations are trying to have conversations that if the church just sticks in its own, Tunnel vision, it can just think that those are things happening out there for other people to discuss.

[00:40:58] But I'm interested from your perspective, as you think about the stories of Jesus, or you think about your spirituality, your trAditeeon what are some of the things that you think it actually brings in terms of maybe wisdom to these larger conversations around technology and ethics? And while you think about it, I'll give you a first thought, which kind of leads on from what we were just talking about.

[00:41:20] I feel like the Christian idea of incarnation. The idea that God becomes flesh and actually that God didn't just come through AI or through a screen but God comes in human flesh is a really powerful idea for helping us to think about the meaning of. embodiment and presence. But are there other things in the trAditeeon, in the stories that actually bring something that the broader kind of cultural conversation could benefit from?

[00:41:50] Aditee Vora: I would say building community is something that, you know I'm sure the Bible teaches us and so does other spiritual books is loving your neighbors. And I think that is something that we keep us in the community face to face. And I think that is something that is a job of the influences of the younger crowd.

[00:42:08] If you ask me when I say that, influences as in if somebody that is elder to them, which is their parents or members of the church or pastors or church leaders who can actually be that approachable and that it's make it easier for them to communicate with them and make them understand that, okay, this is something that we need to follow as this is something that, is the words of a Christian book or any other spiritual, I think, yeah, just loving your neighbors that, being a part of the community is very important.

[00:42:40] Somerset Drayton: I do think it is tricky. Attention span wise but for me personally spoken word and conversations help with that community and that connection and that building and it's tricky to emulate when we're talking about technology because we talk about how the outreach is so important but I do think.

[00:43:00] As you say, embody and being in our bodies and appreciating one another in a space, especially in a church space or just in a space together, worshipping something or someone, depending on the spirituality or the thing that you're talking about, is really important. Tricky to feel like you can have in those digital spaces, like being with people and connecting and talking and having that common knowledge, I feel like is really important in those spaces.

[00:43:32] Jonty Cornford: Yeah, I definitely think there's something to the idea of embodiment and incarnation in the sense that, in digital spaces, you do by nature of how they function, put all of your eggs in a digital basket. Yeah. and there isn't a sense of physical embodiment in a lot of those spaces. So I definitely think there's something to that.

[00:43:54] I'll have to think more about. But I think another one for me is this idea that, and one of the core things in the gospel that I hold really important in my own spirituality is this idea of like radical acceptance and radical hospitality and grace. And one of the things that we see with, going all the way back to the beginning of this conversation around.

[00:44:15] The way that I and social media and just digitization can funnel us into our digital communities which is great to find the people that think and like the same things that you do but it generates this. Can do not always but it definitely has the potential to generate the sort of tribalism and I we've lost the we've stopped exercising the muscle of being uncomfortable.

[00:44:42] And being uncomfortable sitting with ideas and people that are different to us and I think something in my experience that I've noticed for me is that being in digital spaces has that muscle has started to atrophy a little bit I think something that's something that for me embodied spirituality through the gospel challenges me to do that and if I am a bit passive in the way I interact with digital media and social media and those things that can have the opposite effect.

[00:45:13] So that's something. 

[00:45:14] Somerset Drayton: It's even thinking about like the positioning that you're in or the things you're doing when you're scrolling on these social media platforms. Like for me, it's a lot of like when I'm on my phone in the morning, maybe like I'm in bed and I'm not really thinking about myself or where I am or what I'm doing, but that separating yourself from that digital space and feeling like you are yourself.

[00:45:38] I don't know. It's a really interesting thing that I think. We tend to lose track of a lot and that the people that we surround ourselves with in a spiritual sense are able to remind us of because even one of the Christian things of laying hands on someone else as you pray for them is really important for that recognition that you are.

[00:45:59] A person and you have thoughts and feelings and things and you are able to connect one on one 

[00:46:05] Will Small: emojis just 

[00:46:06] Somerset Drayton: like with people like you're able to be with people and I feel like in my faith personally that physicality is just so important. And also publicly speaking to a group of people is one of my bread and butter things.

[00:46:22] I do a lot of children's sermons and short talks. And seeing how people react in the physical space to that is so important to me personally, and my growth, and how I'm able to structure my faith is being and listening in those spaces. I don't know, just very important to me. 

[00:46:43] Will Small: Yeah, I think like one of the themes that's could tie all this together.

[00:46:47] It goes right back to the early things we're talking about in terms of the concerns around authenticity and AI and so much of this technology is trying to replicate the most authentic version of something, let's say it's watching a sunrise. You could actually just go outside. And watch the sunrise and try and do it before we, do too much damage to the environment.

[00:47:08] So you can't see that sunrise anymore. So I think it's interesting to think, before the technology like arrives at that point, don't miss what is already before you, you can be sitting across from somebody. Now, I know it can be amazing for it can be incredible for bridging those accessibility gaps.

[00:47:24] I think that's where it has one of its greatest offerings. But I suppose as we think about spirituality, like everything you need is here now, everything you need within your body, within the creation within the spirit is actually already available. Love to give each of you a final thought or sentence that you just want to leave any maybe young adult, young person listening with, as they think about how they integrate Their relationship with technology as well as their sense of spirituality.

[00:47:55] What would be the kind of thought or challenge or encouragement you want to leave them with? 

[00:47:59] Aditee Vora: I think I want to highlight that nature is spirituality. And I think as long as we have nature there's always going to be a good chance that people are going to go out and watch that sunrise. I 

[00:48:13] Somerset Drayton: think it's tricky when a lot of older people in your space tell you that technology is terrible.

[00:48:20] And we definitely have made points on both sides, but I think viewing it as a complete villain is discounting the fact that technology is really great for spiritual growth. There are some really fantastic resources and things out there that extend your knowledge past. Just the room you're in and it means you can grow a bit, but I think not being afraid of it, but also ask questions because that's very important.

[00:48:53] I 

[00:48:55] Jonty Cornford: think that's really interesting and it's a dynamic that I find myself thinking about is generationally there's almost this thing where young people are told that it's almost their fault this is your thing social media and technology and AI. I don't just want to get and that's something that's definitely come up in my conversations with other young people is like this awareness of the fact that social media in particular is this like just monolithic force in their life that they want to be able to do something about.

[00:49:27] And that's not helped by the sentiments of whether it's their parents or some of the people that people in their communities at church or wherever the older people in their lives can sometimes reinforce this feeling of what have I done is it my fault that I'm addicted to social media and I wanted to say no it isn't.

[00:49:46] It's this is this like when you've got billions of dollars of tech and people in Silicon Valley like butting heads to try and make you scrolling on your phone as much as possible of course it's not your fault like we don't stand a chance against all that really and so understanding that and freeing yourself from the feeling of responsibility.

[00:50:07] And actually then trying to claim agency despite that I find is really empowering for me. And trying to find your communities and your connections and your settings and all of those things that allow you to flourish through that and not, it's almost it's like the climate change debate.

[00:50:26] There's so much. That is beyond our control. What can you do person to person that's going to make a difference in your life and the lives of the people around you? That's where I try to focus instead of trying to tackle this like giant idea of, yeah. 

[00:50:39] Somerset Drayton: The thing you need to be is you.

[00:50:41] Jonty Cornford: Yeah. 

[00:50:41] Somerset Drayton: But it's you to the power of what you do rather than to the power of what others want you to.

[00:50:53] Will Small: Thank you Aditee Somerset and Jonty for being part of this conversation loved everything you had to share. 

Hopefully that episode has given you some thoughts to continue to chew the conversation It doesn't end now, it begins. Make sure that you continue to talk to your friends, family, neighbors, whoever, about the things that were raised in this episode.

[00:51:18] This was brought to you by Spiritual Misfits and the Uniting Mission and Education Pulse Team. And if you go into the show notes with this episode, you can follow us on social media, join the Facebook groups, keep the conversation going.