Ex-DEA Agent Exposes the Fentanyl Crisis: 100K Deaths a Year | Brian Townsend - I.E. Media Podcast #23

In this powerful episode of the I.E. Media Podcast, we sit down with Brian Townsend, a former DEA Supervisory Special Agent with 28 years of law enforcement experience. Brian shares firsthand insights into the fentanyl epidemic, drug cartel operations, and the terrifying rise in counterfeit pills laced with deadly opioids.

We dive into:

• The truth about fentanyl exposure for law enforcement
• Why the opioid crisis is spreading globally
• How synthetic opioids from China and Mexico are flooding the streets
• The brutal realities of the drug war
• What parents and communities must know to protect the next generation
• Real stories from the front lines of DEA investigations

Brian is now the founder of Only2MG, a nonprofit raising awareness about fentanyl poisoning and advocating for smarter drug prevention strategies. This episode is a wake-up call — not just for the U.S., but for countries like the UK where fentanyl is starting to take hold.

📌 Watch now to understand the true scope of this crisis — and what we can all do to make a difference.

🔗 Brian’s Website & Resources: https://www.only2mg.com

📺 Full video podcast available on YouTube
🎧 Also available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music & all major platforms.

#IEMediaPodcast #BrianTownsend #DEA #FentanylCrisis #DrugAwareness

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Brian Townsend and His Background
01:23 Journey into Law Enforcement and Drug Enforcement
02:52 The Impact of Fentanyl on Communities
04:09 Sources and Manufacturing of Fentanyl
05:32 Misconceptions About Fentanyl and Officer Safety
06:58 Fentanyl's Role in Drug Overdoses
08:23 Fentanyl Contamination in the Drug Supply
09:42 Raising Awareness and Education Efforts
10:22 Addressing Demand and Root Causes of Drug Use
11:30 Government Response and Law Enforcement Cooperation
12:38 The Severity of Drug Sentencing
14:22 The Evolution of Drug Trends and Their Impact
15:56 The Ongoing Battle Against Drug Trafficking
17:30 Counterfeit Pills and Their Dangers
20:24 Profit Motives Behind Fentanyl Distribution
22:42 Public Perception and Demand for Dangerous Drugs
24:02 Investigating Drug-Related Deaths
27:32 Accountability for Drug Traffickers
29:14 The Global Supply Chain of Fentanyl
31:06 The Drug Trafficking Pipeline
34:40 The Rise of Stimulant Use
36:05 Empowering Youth Through Education
40:54 The Fight Against Fentanyl
46:19 Inside the Crisis: Real Stories
51:35 Breaking the Stigma of Addiction

Transcript

Welcome back to IE Media. Here on episode 23, I'm joined by Brian Townsend, a seasoned law enforcement professional with 28 years of service, including five years as a police officer and 23 years as a DEA supervisory special agent. Brian now leads Eagle Six Training, providing expert speaking, training and consulting to law enforcement and businesses globally. He also serves as a law enforcement training coordinator for MOCIC.

which is the mid-states organized crime information center. And he also founded 2MG Inc, a 501c3 focused on addressing the opioid crisis. Renowned for his fentanyl expertise, Brian is a frequent voice on Fox, CNN, Forbes, and has appeared on many podcasts offering critical insights into the drug epidemic. I'm intrigued to learn more about this. And I think it's very important to raise awareness for current and future generations.

But first, I'd like to introduce our guests to the show and say thanks for reaching out and how's it going, Brian?

Good and thank you for having me such an important conversation that we're going to have.

Absolutely. Yeah. Would you mind giving a little bit of a backstory into maybe earlier life and what inspired you into law enforcement?

Yeah, I spent 28 years in law enforcement. In high school, I made a decision that I wanted to go into law enforcement, specifically drug enforcement. I know that's an odd decision from such a young age, but it was a decision I made early on. didn't know how I was going to achieve that. I knew that was my dream, but it was pretty murky. It was an interesting journey, but it worked out. I decided to go into law enforcement.

Local law enforcement first. was a police officer in Joplin, Missouri, which is in the Southwest corner of the state of Missouri, which beautiful town, beautiful people, great police department. But my dream, like I said, was the drug enforcement administration, the DEA. And I was finally able to achieve that in 1999. And I went to the DEA and spent the next 23 years of my career there. I spent the first 10 years in Arkansas and then the next almost seven years in Texas. And then about four years in Virginia.

And then I returned to Missouri and retired in Springfield, Missouri as the resident agent in charge. So was in charge of the DEA office in Springfield in several counties in Southwest Missouri that we were responsible for.

So I guess you've seen quite a lot of things then in your time.

Yeah, I've seen the impact that drugs have on our communities. And that was a big reason why after my DEA career, I decided to continue this journey of public service, but in a different way.

Being over in Britain, sometimes we see these images on the news of what they call these fentanyl zombies. And it is quite sad to see people in this zombie-like state. And we're hearing more and more now here in the UK about fentanyl-related deaths. And I know that the United Kingdom is only years away from the United States, isn't it? It's only so far behind. And yeah, so I think it's important for people over here to hear your story as well.

Yeah, unfortunately you're going to experience more what we're already seeing in the United States. You know, in 30 years of law enforcement, never seen a drug more impactful. I've never seen a drug change the way of life so much like fentanyl has. You we still see a lot of heroin in Europe, it's common. Fentanyl replaced heroin in the United States. It's a synthetic opioid and it's the exact same thing's going to happen in Europe. Why mess with heroin when you can get a cheaper synthetic?

opioid that's more potent and like I said, cheaper. So that means higher profit market margins for the, for the drug traffickers. So unfortunately it's going to happen worldwide and it's a, it's devastating. Yeah.

Do you have any insight to maybe where it's coming from?

Yeah. So the chemicals to make fentanyl primarily originate from China. They're bought in bulk from Chinese chemical suppliers. India is another large source country for the chemicals, but China by far is number one. And most of those chemicals are shipped to Mexico, to the ports in Mexico, which are controlled by the cartels, the main two cartels in Mexico are the

Speaker 1 (04:36.556)
Sinaloa cartel, the CDS and the Jalisco new generation, the CJNG. And from there it's manufactured into fentanyl and then smuggled into primarily the United States.

It seems to be very potent, doesn't it? Because I was watching a traffic stop of an officer who discovered some in the trunk of a car and literally within minutes he's collapsed, hit the ground and going to call EMS and stuff. So quite dangerous, isn't it, for your officers as well?

It is. It's dangerous, but you know, we've actually been able to, uh, to understand a lot more about that. And we know now that the, officers were actually, were not impacted by the fentanyl itself. It was the, the fear of the fentanyl. Yeah. It's a, it's a huge misconception about fentanyl. And in 2016, the DEA, and I love DEA, but 2016, we kind of led the charge to let law enforcement and the public know that this was a very dangerous drug and it is a very dangerous drug and we should respect that.

But we went as far as to say that just being around it or, you know, even skin contact could cause an overdose. And we now know that's not true. I'm not minimizing these officers. I'm happy they're okay. I stress the importance of understanding the dangers of the drug and understanding that we need to wear personal protective equipment, PPE. You know, I always wear nitrile gloves when I was around fentanyl. And for that matter, I wore nitrile gloves when I was around any drug or suspect.

drug. But it is a dangerous drug though. But it has to get into your system. And when it gets into your system, we're only talking about a couple milligrams. That's why I called my nonprofit only 2MG. And that was to show that only two milligrams of fentanyl was enough to kill the average human being. Again, it has to get into the system, but only a couple granules of salt or sand. That's what two milligrams is.

Speaker 1 (06:29.646)
The number of people dying from other drugs, specifically like methamphetamine and cocaine, is still alarmingly high and it continues to increase. But fentanyl is the drug that's killing people. In the United States, we don't have the numbers yet for 2024, but it'll probably be right around 100,000 people. So we know that every year, fentanyl or the overall drug deaths, fentanyl is about two thirds of all those deaths.

is because it's contributed to fentanyl. So to put that in perspective, US football, not soccer, US football. Wow. A stadium in the United States is usually around 75,000, 80,000 people. So when you look at a United States football stadium and you look at all the number of people that fill that stadium, that's about how many folks we lose every single year to one drug.

That's awful, isn't it? And I'm hearing more and more stories now of these criminal gangs that are lacing other drugs with fentanyl. Is that true or is that hysteria?

No, no, that's absolutely true. So, so the, how fentanyl came into our drug supply, at least in the United States was through heroin. We saw a spike in heroin use in the late 2000 or early 2000s and 2010s. And so we saw a spike in production of, of, of opium and, and, and heroin, and then they needed something to cut it with. And fentanyl is an opioid just as heroin is. So, but like I said, it's synthetic, it's completely manmade. It's cheaper. So they started to.

to put in, I'm sorry, they started to put it into our heroin supply and then eventually just took over and then they went to the pills and now we see it in methamphetamine, we see it in cocaine. Now I've seen a statistic that DEA put out that they now estimate that about 70 % of the drug supply is contaminated with fentanyl. That's an incredible amount.

Speaker 2 (08:23.34)
Yeah, that is definitely and that is something that needs to be known about, isn't it? I can imagine through the various talks that you do and publications, that's what you're trying to do. And how does that translate to your working with the law enforcement agencies and stuff?

Yeah, so I started only 2MG to work with not just law enforcement, but the public as well. Law enforcement's been my primary audience. I've navigated in that field for three decades. so that's a natural customer base, if you will, for me. But I make these presentations open to everyone. And the idea is to educate and spread awareness.

Hopefully be a force multiplier. Hopefully people take the information that I provide and they take it back to their families or their communities.

I guess you've also seen the impact of the families, haven't you? Especially in your years in law enforcement. And I can only imagine some of the intense operations you've been involved with in trying to bring some of these gangs down and try to take this stuff off the streets. But it seems to be like a never-ending thing, doesn't it, with the drug war? And it really is out of control, isn't it?

It is, it's, it's, it's, it's devastating how profound the impact has on, on communities and, then on families. You know, we need to.

Speaker 1 (09:56.014)
The answer is actually simple. need to reduce the demand. Yeah. That's what we have to do. And unfortunately, the demand in the United States is too great. I you know, I can demonize the chemical suppliers and the cartels and the drug traffickers and as we should, and we should continue to target those folks. But at the end of the day, we have to, we have to reduce their demand for drugs. I mean, you know, in the United States alone, I mean, we,

You look at our population just in the US alone, we're probably about 4 % of the global population, yet most of the drug consumption is here. That's a problem.

Yeah. What do you think drives people to get involved with it?

Interesting question, hard one. I think a lot of it is a coping mechanism for a lot of stress and trauma and things that they've experienced in life. We know that from a lot of young people, a lot of research, know, they're, you know, sexual abuse, mental abuse, physical abuse. This is their coping mechanism is they turn to drugs and alcohol and it were just simply mental illness. And those are discussions that we're really not addressing, at least not in this country.

We're largely ignoring. look at drug use as a moral failure. So we, we don't really throw the resources that we should at getting to the, to the root, to the stem of the problem. just continue to patch it.

Speaker 2 (11:22.414)
Are you hopeful with the new government in maybe making some progress along that or is it a stalemate?

Yeah, you know, at least on the enforcement part, you know, I'm not a political person, but I mean, we've had a tremendous amount of movement in the last two months. That's been very, very positive for our communities. really has. You know, the, mean, just a couple of days ago, we had, we had several cartel members extradited into the United States and like 27, 28 of them, including one that was responsible for the death of a DA agent, Kiki Camerana.

Yeah, he's finally in the United States where I know this is going to sound mean, but I hope he takes his last breath in a United States prison.

Yeah, yeah that was such a sad case wasn't it? Yeah!

And these are, it's just a reminder of how deadly and how, how violent these organizations are and what they're willing to do to push drugs into our communities. but we've, like I said, in the last few months alone, we've seen a, a tremendous amount of, of change. mean, this, the, the cooperation with Mexico has, has increased a hundred fold in the last few months. And, you know, I don't.

Speaker 1 (12:38.422)
I'm not part of those negotiations, but whatever our government is doing with the Mexican government and the president down near Claudia Schimba, it's working. And I hope we continue to see that. And again, I think that's just one piece of this very complex puzzle. think the other piece is things like what I'm trying to do is raise awareness and reduce the demand for drugs. So not have people look for these drugs. And then the enforcement part is to make it harder for them to find them.

It's impactful how drugs are, like I said, at 30 years in law enforcement, never seen a drug this impactful. mean, it's changed the landscape, drug experimentation. I mean, you look at this generation of young people right now, they can die from experimental drug use. We never had a drug like that in our drug supply before. You tried drugs, you know, when I was in high school, chances of dying were pretty slim. I mean, it was, you'd probably win the lottery before you actually died.

And that's a severe consequence for using drugs. I know some, like I said, I know some people can be harsh and they can, and they'll say things like, well, they should have never tried it. The result at the end of the day, we're talking about people that are dying because of experimental drug use. And that's, that's not, that's not the acceptable consequence. You know, we need, we need to get to the root of problem, figure out why they were using drugs, you know, giving them the education, empower them to make decisions. So maybe they don't use drugs.

And at the same time, like I said, continue to aggressively go after these criminals, these people who prey on us.

Yeah, do you think that the sentencing and the punishment is severe enough for them? I mean, I don't know anything about any cases or anything, so I'm not too sure, but I'd like to hear your side on that.

Speaker 1 (14:22.658)
Yeah, know, federal law enforcement has better sentencing than, let's say, state or local law enforcement in the United States. And that's a big...

It's a big resource that we have, you know, that that's a, we've, can't tell you the number of criminals I've dealt with over the years who, who, when they find out where DEA, when we find out where federal law enforcement, they're like, Oh, you know, cause then they're looking at real sentences. It's no longer a slap in the hand or, a 20 year jail sentence that results in, know, in a year because of good behavior, you know, you're, you're gonna, you're gonna spend most of your time in federal prison behind a federal sentence. So.

We have stronger laws and harsher sentences and that's a good thing. People should be held accountable, where the rule of law should mean something.

Absolutely, yeah. And I think that would deter most sane people, wouldn't it, from even going down that route, even in terms of other drug dealers maybe doing other sorts of things. But yeah, I mean, it's so sad, isn't it, to see the impact on the communities over the time? I mean, we've seen it back in the 80s, 90s with the crack epidemic and then you have the methamphetamine thing, especially in the States.

And you know, it's a similar thing here. We still have a lot of heroin addicts and stuff on the streets and crack and yeah, I watch a lot of these guys on YouTube, you know, that go around the different towns and cities and stuff. And it does seem to be still a major problem. Really does.

Speaker 1 (15:56.31)
It is. It's unfortunate that it seems like every few years or so there's a new drug or a new trend and people are willing to put these dangerous chemicals in their body. And it's just, it really is sad. And I know we talk about fentanyl because it is such a devastating drug, but we still have problems with the other drugs as well. mean, methamphetamine is the number one seized drug in the United States and it's still a problem.

So we, you know, continue to battle that as well, but, the impact is, certainly been fentanyl because of the, you know, the mere fact that two milligrams once it's in your body can, can kill you. So when you talk about a hundred thousand people dying every year and 75,000 of those are because of one drug, you know, one drug, you know, that's why, that's why I can say it's so impactful or more impactful than, the other drugs.

Such a huge number that, isn't it? That should be enough to scare anyone away from using it, shouldn't it?

I hope. really have. Yeah. When I talk to young people, that's one of the things, know, stats usually borrow them, but I try to, try to,

get it through their heads that this is a drug that.

Speaker 1 (17:08.983)
that doesn't discriminate, it doesn't care who you are, doesn't care how often you use it. It'll kill you the first time you use it. If you use too much of it, it'll kill you. And it's snuck into so many of the drugs that they experiment with.

From your knowledge, what other drugs have they, especially in the United States, been like lacing it essentially with that you've heard of?

The pills are a big thing. mean, like, so we know that the cocaine and methamphetamine last year, about 41 % of all cocaine seized by law enforcement in the United States had fentanyl in it. About 17 % of all methamphetamine seized by law enforcement had fentanyl in it. But the big problem, and of course, heroin, you know, like said, it's pretty much replaced heroin. I mean, you can still find heroin, but it's a lot more difficult than it was, you know, just four or five years ago.

But the big pill to answer your question, or I'm sorry, the big drug would be really be the pills and not just opioids, by the way. mean, if there's a pill, there's a counterfeit. So the big ones we see quite a bit are the oxy, the Adderalls, the Xanax bars. and there are counterfeits for all these drugs. And so many are so often of the time these counterfeits contain fentanyl, methamphetamine, or some type of garbage or other poison.

that are harming people. Just to give you some perspective, when DEA started testing this, it was about four out of 10 pills contained at least two milligrams of fentanyl. And then in 2023, it jumped up to seven out of 10 pills. Now we've seen a decline as of a couple months ago, we've seen a decline to now it's down to about five out of 10 pills have at least two milligrams of fentanyl. But the reality is it's still fentanyl and meth and other garbage in our drug supply.

Speaker 2 (18:57.206)
If I understand this right, is this like kind of street dealers in the United States that are selling these pills kind of pretending that they're prescription pills but really they're something else or is it a whole new thing?

No, sometimes they'll tell you that they're counterfeit. Sometimes they'll tell you they're real and they'll, they're pill presses and their stamps, their dyes. I mean, they'll look real. You can, you can put them side by, you can put a Percocet pills next to a real Percocet pill and they, they look real. In fact, it's very difficult to distinguish. In fact, I have slides where I'll put real and, and, and fake pills on the slides and I'll show them to, and I've had, I've had medical professionals in the class. I've had kids in the class. I've had all kinds of people in the class.

who claim they can, well, they never claim, they probably would think they could tell the difference and they get it wrong all the time. And it's nothing against them. It's just the fact that these drug traffickers are making pills to mimic our real drug supply. They want people to believe that they're getting real Percocet, real hydrocodone, real Adderall, real Xanax or whatever the drug is. it's, you know, they rarely do you get just a pill that's just a

a circle or an oval or something like that and you have no idea what it is. mean, they're specifically counterfeiting real pills yet with fake substances and dangerous substances like fentanyl.

And is that purely for profit?

Speaker 1 (20:24.918)
Yes, fentanyl is a very potent drug. It brings back customers. It's like putting sugar in candy, right? You want somebody to come back and want more and more and more. the question, usually a follow-up question, and it's probably running through your head right now is why would they put such a dangerous drug in that kill?

Yeah, because we hear theories in the United Kingdom that they do it to kill people, know, and then you think, well, if they did it to kill people, then the dealer would be out of business. you know, so I'm not sure what's going on, but I will take your perspective on that being an expert in the field.

Yeah, it's funny because we all, mean, everyone asks the same questions here as well. And the reality is the manufacturers who are making this stuff, they understand how addictive it is and they want people to come back as repeat customers. To them, if they kill some people off, it's not a big deal because they know they're going to get more repeat customers. It's like this crazy, crazy algorithm, if you will, as long as more people are buying it than dying, it doesn't matter. And even though we have a record number of people dying, they still have record sales. These things cost pennies to make.

Now, you're now when these trickle down from, let's say, wholesaler to a reseller or local trafficker, and let's say I'm your drug dealer and you die, you know, I might be a little sad, not because you died, but because now that's a source of income that's no longer going to be coming into me. But a couple levels ahead of me, they don't care because again, this is a they're looking at it as a pure dollars and cents game. They're saying, okay, yeah, you lost your customer. However,

You picked up three or four new customers and that's a plus. And at the end of the day, this is all about money. mean, there's no, you know, trying to help you, trying to make you feel better, trying to make you cope with some type of trauma. is 100 % about greed.

Speaker 2 (22:16.814)
I've heard other ex-addicts say that if they heard that somebody had died off a product on the street, like you're saying, that just made the demand go up because people thought, this is some good stuff, you know, and I can't get my head around that mindset, you know. It's like people died and now they want it. It's crazy. But again, that definitely is some kind of mental health and addiction, isn't it?

I couldn't get my head around it either. I can tell you, at DEA, I can't tell you the number of times where that exact thing has happened, where let's say it was a purple pill or a purple product. And our informants would literally tell us, the word on the street is everyone wants that purple stuff now. And I'm like, people just died because of it. Doesn't matter. That is absolutely 100 % what they want. They demand it. And it's very difficult for anyone to wrap their head around that.

that someone would seek a drug that has proven to kill people.

Yeah, yeah it's wild, really is. So I mean it seems like a battle that you've got on your hands over there in law enforcement for sure. I mean we have battles ourselves in the United Kingdom with drugs and stuff but it seems far more serious at the moment doesn't it over there.

It is. I mentioned that the number of people die every year. Just to give you some perspective, in the United States, we've been tracking that data since 1968. So we call them drug overdose. I call them drug poisonings. So from 1968 to the year 2000, we lost about 200,000 people in the United States over a 32-year period. That's a lot of people. A lot of people. Every year, we now lose 100,000 people. Every year.

Speaker 1 (24:02.03)
So in the last two years alone, we lost more people than we did the first 32 years of tracking this data. When I was in high school, we lost three, 4,000 people a year to drugs. The new normal is 100,000 a year. Last year, the year before, was 107,543 individuals in the United States. Sons, daughters, neighbors, husbands, wives, and...

And we're happy that those numbers are decreasing. It's probably because of the availability of drugs like naloxone or namaphene, but it's still a hundred thousand people a year. You know, this is having a huge impact. And, I hate to say it, I hope I'm wrong. I hope you, hope we talk in a year and you tell me that your guys's numbers are still low. That would, that would, that would make me very happy. But unfortunately I see a trend happening throughout the, throughout the world. And, and it's just a matter of time before you start seeing, your death.

numbers increase as well.

So when sadly there is these deaths, does that then open up new investigations and then usually lead to whoever supplied that going to jail or do you have a lot of cases where they never found who supplied it?

Well, unfortunately, yes and yes. Yeah. So, so ideally you have law enforcement that's going to work these cases and look at these as deaths resulting from the drug that was sold. And I would hope that law enforcement would aggressively go after these drug traffickers that are killing other people. The reality of it is the prosecution numbers on those are pretty low in the United States. They really are.

Speaker 1 (25:45.954)
And I think for a variety of reasons, unfortunately, and I love this profession, but unfortunately they're not as investigated. They're not investigated as.

as aggressively as they may, let's say, your typical murder. There's still the sick stigma that, they did this to themselves. They use drugs and this is the consequences of their action. And I know that sounds cold and that certainly doesn't go for all law enforcement, but I have seen that. I've seen a lot of folks who just don't put the time into these investigations. But I think that that tide is changing. I really do. think as we educate and understand the problem that law enforcement is,

doing more and more and more. that's a positive, an absolute positive. Problem is, and quite frankly, these investigations are very difficult to do. They really are. mean, your victim's dead. The person who used the fentanyl or the drug is gone. So now we're relying on phones and other evidence and perhaps an interview with a suspected drug trafficker and.

And then from that investigation, you give it to a prosecutor's office and he or she can make a decision that they don't think the evidence is strong enough. I can think of a couple of cases that I was personally involved with where, it came down to the, prosecution decision. And that was, and that's where the, that's where the case ended. And it was unfortunate, but, but I, I truly do see a turn in, in,

opinion at least in the law enforcement. So I'm hoping that that these drug traffickers will be held more accountable. Yeah. For their actions.

Speaker 2 (27:32.702)
If the prosecution is successful, what sort of punishment can they be looking at, especially if people have died from something they've supplied?

Yeah, it really just depends. It depends on the jurisdiction. So, you know, in the US we have different levels of prosecution. in the federal system, you know, again, you're going to have a lot more resources, a lot more laws available to you. So the sentencing is going to be a little bit more severe than let's say a state jurisdiction or, or, you know, or yeah, state jurisdiction. So really just depends. Yeah. But I think with the public opinion in public

the information going out more and more and people understanding what's happening and the fact that this is impacting so many people. think more and more people are demanding that law enforcement and the criminal justice system hold people accountable that are killing others with these deadly pills and these deadly drugs, should say.

I suppose if you spread that awareness so everybody knows then these guys are clearly making a conscious decision to put this stuff on the street aren't they?

They are issues. Call that money.

Speaker 2 (28:44.914)
punishment yeah yes it's very sad

It's very profitable business. These cartels make billions of dollars on this stuff. These fentanyl pills cost pennies to make, literally pennies to make. By the time they hit the streets, depending on where and how you buy them, you might spend $25, $30 on a pill. It's a substantial markup.

Yeah, that is very scary, isn't it? Something so cheap can be so deadly. I mean, do you think that it's also down to where these where this stuff's coming from as well? Should they not be doing more to stop it leaving their countries and flooding, you know? Someone say there's a little bit of a conspiracy going on, but I don't know. I'm sure it's way deeper than that.

Yeah, absolutely. I hope that we have to look at it. We have to look at the entire supply chain and we have to go at it at all angles. China is a threat. China is the number one source country for these chemicals. They're not doing nearly enough to curb it. I know when President Trump was in his first term in office, he talked to President Xi and

And at that time they were sending finished product to places like Mexico. And he said, okay, we'll no longer send the finished product. And then he turned around and kind of winked at his chemical suppliers and said, just send them the chemicals, let them finish it now. So that's kind of like if I were gonna send you brownies and every year I sent you brownies for your birthday. But then one year I'm like, I'm no longer gonna send you the brownies, I'm just gonna send you the recipe to make the brownies. It's exactly what he did.

Speaker 1 (30:36.118)
So the problem never stopped. It just changed the form as opposed to sending real fentanyl. Now he sends the chemicals to make the fentanyl. So we've got to step up pressure there and that's absolutely a step up pressure there. And then where do those chemicals go? They primarily at least they go to Mexico. And we spoke about that earlier, but we need to continue to step up pressure there. mean, we're talking bulk shipments of these chemicals coming into Mexico and

We know this. This isn't classified information that I'm sharing. We know this. We know that the majority of these chemicals are bulk shipped into the ports. These ports are full of corruption and control by primarily two cartels. And we know that they are then shipped, usually trucks, to different various locations around Mexico. And they have these huge manufacturing labs.

And then they're smuggled into the US. so, mean, every step of that process, we need to target from an enforcement standpoint and from a diplomatic standpoint. I, you know, that's what I hope our government's doing with China and Mexico. And obviously they are, you know, been working pretty aggressively with Mexico, given what we've seen in the last couple of months. But I hope that increases. I really do. That's good for, that's good for us.

Yeah, and say like on the border, I'm not sure how it works, but you know, the drug dogs with the officers, are they able to detect this? Like through smells and stuff, or is it odorless?

No, no, they, it's odorless to us, but the dogs are, they're amazing, right? And they can detect it. And our border seizures have continued to be pretty high. I think they've actually decreased this last month. And I've just now looking at the stats, we've seen a lot of changes at the border since this election. yeah, they are, you know, the men and women who work for the board patrol and

Speaker 1 (32:39.532)
law enforcement, especially around along the border are doing everything they can to, to stop the flow of drugs into the U S. you know, they're using, they're using canines or using other technology. And, I hope that continues to, to increase as well. And then, and we know that the cartels are going to change their methods. They always, they always adapt because they have no laws, they have no morals. It's all about money for them. So, so I suspect we'll see more, you know, maritime shipments, you know, on the water,

know, drones, tunnels, you know, they're going to continue to try to get drugs into this country any way possible. And we have to counter, we have to step up our game and counter that and continue to stop these drugs.

They certainly do go to all tactics because here in the United Kingdom, the authorities keep reporting that big packages of cocaine keep washing up on the beaches, on the shores, and members of the public are finding them, tons of the stuff. So I'm not sure, you know, maybe that's an operation gone wrong in the middle of the night, somebody's supposed to be at a certain location and maybe it doesn't go to the right place or whatever happens, but...

It definitely shows you that the demand must be high. And I did see a documentary saying in the last decade, I think cocaine use in Britain has gone up by 800%, which is quite scary, you know, when you've got children and nieces and nephews and growing into this world. And yeah, it's quite worrying.

We've seen an increase in the United States as well. Not only cocaine, but methamphetamine. We call them psychostimulants. I think the reason why we're seeing that and the reason you're seeing that is because we are seeing more legal stimulants being used by young people in this world. And that's driven by the pharmaceutical industry. So it's the same thing as in 1990s with opioids. They were really pushing opioids. mean, we went from, if you had an opioid prescription prior to 1996, you were probably dying.

Speaker 1 (34:40.525)
to here you go, here's 30, 60, 90 pills. And then that led into a widespread legal opioid problem in the United States and that led to more heroin use. And then like I said, that led to fentanyl. So now let's look at that stimulants like cocaine and let's work that backwards. Here in the US and just in the last maybe 10 years, we've seen about a 60 % increase in legal stimulants, legal.

So if you look at some of the studies out there, I saw one that said 15 % of all high school seniors, 12th graders, graduating seniors in the United States are now under some type of stimulant, legal from a doctor. So what happens when they graduate high school or college and they continue to use these drugs or they turn to other stimulants. So we've seen a significant increase in cocaine and methamphetamine, especially by our young people.

And I don't have the statistics in the UK, but I suspect that something similar is happening in there. you're seeing more stimulant use, then it's more than likely because of legal stimulants use has increased as well.

Is there more programs now within the school system to warn children? I mean they don't listen half the time but some do don't they so I'm sure it's beneficial.

You know, some schools are doing more and more and I work in quite a few schools and I have friends who work in this space and it's probably the most rewarding presentations you can give because you're, I mean, that's front lines when it comes to getting people to give them information and empower them to make decisions. But, you some schools are pretty good about it. Some schools are very welcoming to people like myself to come in and raise awareness.

Speaker 1 (36:33.45)
Some aren't, some parents aren't, I can't tell you the number of parents I've talked to over the years who, who say things like out of sight, out of mind, you know, and they prefer to put their head in the sand. They think that's going to solve the problem. And, unfortunately, it doesn't, I tell parents all the time, if you don't have these discussions and I don't care if it's just about drugs, can be about, you know, alcohol, sex, everything. If you're not having these discussions, someone else is. And that other person.

You can't control what they're saying, telling your children, you know, so with social media or whether it's a drug trafficker or just some, you know, some creep online, you know, why give them that opportunity to, to give your children bad information, you know, have these discussions early and often.

Yeah, and I think it's important to actually highlight the dangers and the risks associated with different compounds. I mean, some parents might just say, oh, drugs are bad and not really say anything else on the matter. And then the child just thinks, oh, well, you know, maybe it's not too bad. And then they hear from friends that are doing it and stuff. But I think if you sit a child down early on,

and just make it part of your conversation, you know, and explain the dangers of different drugs and what they do to people and maybe show examples and I think it can be very powerful. I mean, I've got a 14 year old boy myself and we've been having these conversations since way early on, you know, and I just hope that it's enough to deter him in the future from ever falling prey to any kind of grooming into drugs and stuff.

You know, and at the end of the day, what you're doing, you're empowering him to make that decision because you know that, you know, unfortunately that your, your son may be in a situation where, where, whatever that, whether it's drugs or whether it's just, I don't know, vandalism and anything that, that you don't want him involved with. You are empowering him to make an informed decision. And that's exactly what I do. You, you're, you're giving him the why. When I go into schools, it's funny. One of the first things I always say is, Hey, I'm not here to tell you not to use drugs. And of course all the.

Speaker 1 (38:41.292)
parents and the school people are like, no, who did we bring in some, some crazy guy, right? And, and, and I, and I follow up with, course, I don't want you to use drugs, but my goal is to give you information and empower you to make a positive decision, which hopefully is the no. but you have to make that decision. You know, we're as much as we'd like to be there, we're not going to be there when our children are faced with these very difficult decisions in life. Right. And, and, and, but if they can go back and say, Hey, dad, talk to me about this drug.

He told me what it does. He told me about the consequences, what could happen to me, what could happen to my friends, my future, my dreams. This is a bad idea. But without that knowledge, what we shooting from the hip? And that's not fair. That's a disservice to our children. that's exactly, we have to give them the reason. Going in there and saying, don't use drugs or bad, that doesn't work. Historically doesn't work.

It's more damaging probably than anything. So, 100%, when I talk to young people, my whole goal is to just give them the why. Tell them why they should say no, why they should make a better decision.

Yeah, it's very good of you to keep doing that. I think we need more people in the world like yourself, you know, that's trying to fight back on this drug war and make an impact for future generations. And I just hope in the future that we do come to a point where the awareness is so strong that the consumption comes down, the demand comes down, and these guys can't make these huge profits. But sadly, at the moment, we do seem to be in a position where it's billions of dollars.

per year in history.

Speaker 1 (40:26.766)
It is and that's what's heartbreaking. I would absolutely welcome the opportunity to have no audiences, no schools, no one to talk to force me to get another job. I would be ecstatic. I used to say that in DEA and law enforcement. I'd love that if we didn't have to exist. But unfortunately, there's evil out there and we have to conquer it.

our children, future is too important not to, to not to, to, it's too important to ignore.

So is there anything else your organization's working on in regards to the talks and training that you're doing?

Yeah, know, we started only 2 mg started to address specifically fentanyl. That's like, and that's why we even called it only 2 mg. was the fact that a mere 2 milligrams of fentanyl was enough to kill the average human being. But we are certainly talking to people about other public health emergencies, problems, you know, not just, not just fentanyl, but, you know, we're, starting to slowly dive into, into other, other things as well. Right now I'm the only instructor.

Uh, you know, I'm pretty busy, uh, just to give you an idea. Last year I did 50, my main presentation alone, I did 54 of them in 20 states. So I traveled quite a bit and there's a cost involved in that as well. We are doing our best to scale our operation. have, I have a number of retired law enforcement officers, DA agents who want to join this fight. And my volunteer network has increased tenfold.

Speaker 1 (42:05.198)
And there are people that want to get involved and that are engaged. The problem is it's just, well, quite frankly, it's a, it's it's a money thing. It's, it's expensive to travel to 20 States. You know,

And you're non-profit as well, aren't you? So you're not doing this for money just to make the listeners and viewers aware. of the love to make a better world, isn't it? To put it bluntly, definitely.

No money at all.

Speaker 1 (42:30.306)
It is. I'm going to tell you something, and I say this not to brag by any stretch of imagination, but I self-funded 90 % of my travel last year. I don't charge for these conversations. And it's not because I'm rich or anything like that. mean, my for-profit business has paid for my nonprofit. I wish I had other sources of income that could come in and take care of this and scale this. But this is too important not to have.

You know, life shouldn't be hard. You know, we can help people and I've dedicated my life to public service, whether it's with, you know, as a police officer, whether it's with DEA or whether it's just as a, you a person who's involved with a nonprofit now. And I hope I inspire change. I hope I give people a reason to have these conversations in their own homes and be force multipliers and reduce the demand for these dangerous substances that are killing our people.

But I can't do it alone. hope if someone's listening out there who wants to make a difference in their community, then just do it. Just do it. Just do something.

Yeah, definitely. I think if enough people got involved, then we could have an even huger impact, couldn't we, on society? And I think if you just keep spreading that awareness, eventually the numbers will build up and there'll be more and more people like yourself trying to help people. I'm trying to do that myself with the show. I mean, I'm interviewing different types of people, all walks of life. But especially if I see something is going to be inspiring or to help.

push some sort of change and when I was on the podcast guests thing and all the requests came through I had like a hundred and one requests and yours stood out straight away the first one I picked out because I thought that one is it's important like you say a hundred thousand people a year dying and that's just in the United States

Speaker 1 (44:33.358)
Well, I appreciate that. It's an important conversation and I'm glad that I can, you know, provide my insight. And I know that, you know, my background, my resume does give me these opportunities and I want to seize on those opportunities. shows like yours, those are your first multipliers, you know. I mean, if just one person hears this message and goes home and talks to their children, that's a win, right? I mean, that's something that we can feel good about. We don't have to know about it. We just know it.

You know, if it happens, that's a, I tell you, it's a beautiful thing. really is. And, I think about some of the conversations I've had over the last couple of years doing this now and some of the impact and it just keeps me going. It really does. It gives me the motivation. gives me the strength. I'm going to find the resources. We're going to scale this, you know, we're going to, we're one day, we're going to get a lucky donor or something. Who's going to say, here you go. And we're going to, I'm telling you, it's, I'm a big hockey fan.

Wayne Gretzky once said, gotta shoot the puck to make goals, right? And let me tell you, I might be missing the net a lot, there's a lot of pucks in front of me and I'm gonna keep on hitting them until more go in and more people are helped because of this.

Yeah, that's really awesome. Yeah, I really, there's not much more you can ask for than that. To have people out there with nothing but compassion and empathy and love for the fellow human beings, you know, just wanting to try and make the world a better place. Yeah, it's very commendable. So I commend you, Surfer, for all your work and everything that you're doing. It's really good. Have you got any future plans with your organization or anything coming up, any interviews or shows?

Yeah, I've been doing more podcasts, been doing more news interviews. In fact, I have one tonight live on the news tonight. I had a couple with Fox that were canceled this past week, but that's okay. There'll be more opportunities. And anytime I can spread awareness, I'm happy to do. There is a project that we're working on. We're calling it Inside the Crisis. And what we plan on doing is actually going onto the streets and talking to people.

Speaker 1 (46:47.63)
that are impacted by drugs and just the different things and get their feedback. You know, I've dealt with a lot of those folks over the years. I've dealt with a lot of them over the last couple of years just doing these presentations. But now we wanna see if we can get some of them to agree to go on camera and tell their story and share their stories, share their experiences, you know, and really dive into the human experience and bring that back to people and let them know that this is what's impacting our communities.

I interviewed a guy on the last episode who had many years of addiction, awful traumas in life and he's now out the other side and he's helping people. He's involved with a homeless charity and he's doing a lot of work in the church. And yeah, it's really inspiring, you know, to hear people's stories of how severe their addiction was, how they've got out the other side and now what life's like for them. I think if people who going through these struggles hear these testimonies,

then it really does inspire hope, doesn't it?

It does. It's an amazing thing. And we can't give up on these people. We can't. There are a plethora of examples, just like the one you shared, where people struggle with these real life problems and they turn the drugs and then they find a way through it. They see the light on the other side and they do amazing things. And it's so many of them actually go back to help others because they know there's hope.

Man, that's a beautiful thing. Some of the volunteers, some of the people I work with are exactly what you described. People who have struggled with addiction, substance use disorder, and they have empathy in their heart and they want to help people. And it's a beautiful thing. really is.

Speaker 2 (48:36.398)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean I've said to people in my life in the past that I've seen growing up who've struggled with drugs and stuff and I've always tried to put them on the right path and be a good friend and not judge them too much, you know and understand what they're going through and You know what? Like you say when you do see the progression and the change it's just like wow and then they'll be thanking you know Thanks for sticking by me through my darkest times and and then I'll try and tell them

Well maybe you could help people, know, because you've been there, you've experienced it. Why not get involved? You know, and I think for a lot of previous addicts, actually speaking and trying to help other people is like a form of therapy, isn't it? And it makes sure that they don't slip down that path again, because they're going to look stupid to all the people they're helping. But it does keep them grounded, doesn't it?

Yeah, it keeps them accountable, right? You you hit the nail on the head stigma and that's something that we know through a lot of research and just talking to people that a lot of people who are struggling with substance use are not getting help because of the stigma, because they don't want to be looked at as, they failed. You know, they did something wrong in life. So what a disservice we're doing to these people. You know, shouldn't we reach out?

reach out, offer them a hand and say, hey, we know you're struggling. I that's where that empathy goes a long way is, and you may not agree. I'm not saying that we're gonna agree with the choices they made and that we're saying that's okay to use drugs or alcohol or at least abuse these things. But what we are saying to them is we understand that you're battling with something. We understand that you're having some troubles here, but guess what? Your life is beautiful and you're a good person and you're...

I should say you are a person worth saving.

Speaker 1 (50:34.498)
you know, offer their hand and, try to try to be a little more empathetic. think more people be willing to say, yeah, you know, I do need help. You know, I need to figure out how I can, how I can get better. but so many of them, you know, so many of them are in the shadows. They, it's, it's, we, we stigmatize people. call them addicts, you know, we, call them junkies. We call them, you know, we, we, we say all these, these words,

You know, if I had cancer, would you call me, hey, cancer, how you doing? No, you would never say that. You would say, I struggle with cancer, but you know, someone who, someone who's struggling with addiction, we, mean, just, just by mere calling them, Hey, you junkie, you, you, know, you, you loser or whatever, you know, the different, different words that we use in society. Those are, look, I'm not, I'm not a tree hugger. I'm not someone who says that these things aren't bad, but I am someone who cares. I, know, and I think they're, that's the difference, right? Stop. We got to stop.

stigmatizing these people and just offer a little bit of empathy.

Yeah. So I watched this guy, as I was saying earlier, who goes around to different towns and cities and he interviews like the homeless people on what we'd say like the addicts on the streets and stuff. And it's so sad, you know, when you actually hear their stories and you see them on camera talking and you realize that, gosh, some of these people can end up in these situations so rapidly. I mean, they might have been married, had children, had a decent job and then within weeks.

something's gone terribly wrong, they're on the streets and like you said earlier like a comfort thing they might turn to drugs to have the pain and depression and then it's a vicious cycle isn't it so

Speaker 1 (52:17.506)
Very vicious. sad. Very vicious. Yeah. Yeah. It's, depressing when, that's, that's kind of our aim as well as to tell that story is to get people to understand that this isn't someone who just say, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna use drugs. want to, I want to, I want to destroy all the relationships with my life. I want to, you know, I want to, I want to go to jail. I want to overdose. These aren't conversations people are having with themselves. You know, they're like said, they're

Typically they're coping with some type of pain or trauma and they don't have an ability or the treatment is not clear to them, or how they can get real help is not clear to them. And we just, we continue to stigmatize these people and...

There's more we can do.

Would you say that mental health plays a major part in this?

I would, and again, that's one of those things that we're really not addressing too much as well, right? We know that there's a lot of mental illness and trauma and things that are impacting people from very young ages. And people experience things differently that could impact your mental health.

Speaker 2 (53:36.654)
Of course, that's not to say like these people are crazy, but they've been through situations and like you said, traumas and stuff. And I think the worst ones we see are the ones people who are abused as children and who see awful things as well. Those seem to be statistically the ones that grow up with more severe addictions, don't they? Which is kind of sad as well.

100%. And then the thing is, when they turn to things like drugs or alcohol, people don't realize that now they're altering their brain, especially young people. They're altering their brain development. So now we have things like psychosis or schizophrenia or other problems that are a result of the prolonged drug use. So now we have those mental illnesses that are exaggerated. They've increased because of the drug use.

So now we've just compounded the problem, right? And that's why we gotta get to it before it all starts. We gotta figure out how to reduce that demand and address these evil things that are happening in our society.

and protect the children, for sure.

Yes, 100%.

Speaker 2 (54:51.374)
If anybody wants to get involved with any of your projects or speak to you, is there any way they can contact you? Maybe want to share like your website or anything.

Yeah, yeah, please. My website is only2mg.com. So it's www.ONLY, the word only, and then just the number two. It's not spelled out. So just two. And then MG. So MG stands for milligrams, then dot com. So it's ONLY2mg.com, only2mg.com. On that website, you'll have more about me. You'll have more about.

what my schedule's on there, what we offer, currently offer. And then if you want to get ahold of me, there's a way to do that via the website. Pretty easy to get ahold of. If I don't contact you right away, it's probably because I'm on a podcast or I'm speaking to an audience or I'm on an airplane. So, love to have the conversation, love to help people, love to travel. So.

Yeah, well if you ever end up in the United Kingdom, we'll have to get you in for an in-studio interview for sure. That'd be cool.

That'd be wonderful. Let's let's schedule it. I was just in Germany a few weeks ago, I international travel is not is not a

Speaker 2 (56:12.758)
Well I'm just out of Manchester, like the North West United Kingdom. So yeah, keep that in mind if you're ever over this way.

We'll set it up.

Yeah, definitely. And you know, maybe we can touch base in the future on this. Maybe if there's any developments in terms of this drug war and any sort of progress or if it goes the other way or if there's anything I can do to help raise awareness or in terms of content creations and putting things together, you know, I can certainly get involved and help free a charge, you know, just to help, know, definitely.

Well, appreciate that. Yeah. Thank you very much. Let's, let's stay in contact and yeah, absolutely. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you very much for joining us and reaching out, really appreciated. And I just hope that this has been touching to people out there that are maybe struggling with these addictions and I hope that this is enough to deter you from going down that path. You know, if you're feeling in a bad place in life and you feel like you need a drug or you need some sort of escapism, there is other things out there. You know, there's video games, there's movies, there's comedy shows.

Speaker 2 (57:28.302)
There's all sorts of stuff and there is people you can talk to. Many people think that they don't have anybody and people are going to judge them but I think that if they reach out in the darkest hour they'll find that there's always going to be somebody. Maybe the person that you don't think wants to hear or wants to help will be there, you know, because I think that's really important for people to understand that to just pick up the phone, you know, and go see somebody, explain how you're feeling. There's no shame. At the end of the day

You've got to stay alive, you know, it's important and the connections we make around us can be enough to keep you on the right path, can't they? I'd say. Have you got any kind of closing up comments or anything you wanted to say before we tie it up?

I Thank you for the opportunity.

Speaker 1 (58:15.8)
Take care of people, start with the people around you and then branch out from there. So thank you for the opportunity to share my story and the work I'm doing.

No, it's absolutely my pleasure. You know, I was telling people that I was having a ex DEA agent onto the show. They say, no, you've got Hank from Breaking Bad. So I made a little post today saying I've got Hank Schrader up next on the podcast. joking, but he's the next best thing. my son, before we close, son wanted me to ask you that, you know, we see DEA and things like the Breaking Bad show and stuff.

How accurate is that to what happens in the DEA?

Breaking Bad had a lot of Hollywood in it. You know, it's funny is the first few episodes, I love Breaking Bad, by the way, I it was a brilliant show. But the first few episodes with Hank, I was like, okay, they're getting some of the terminology and some of the internal stuff with DEA wrong. And if you're a DEA agent, would recognize it. Public's not gonna realize that. But then they must add some people on set who were like, well, time out, we need to fix a couple little details that make a difference.

And so it started to get a lot more accurate on how they portrayed Hank and the work. But at the end of the day, a lot of Hollywood involved in the story.

Speaker 2 (59:39.584)
That's a great thing.

Great show, right? think, actually one of my favorite, I think the writing was brilliant. I love how they, know, Jesse, just give you my little feedback here. know, Jesse, Jesse was a good person, but he was constantly labeled as a loser, as someone who, you know, who was less desirable, right? And he just kept on.

thinking, I guess that's my role in life. And then you have Walt, the teacher, the prominent teacher and father. And at the end of the day, he was garbage, right? mean, you had this absolute reversal of roles that I thought was brilliant. I could go on and on and on. I enjoyed the show. But as far as the DEA perspective and just law enforcement and how everything works, yeah, lot of Hollywood.

Yeah.

Well, I think most of us in the United Kingdom didn't know what methamphetamine was until that show. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'd never heard of it before, previous to watching that series. And I mean, now we hear cases of it, not as much as other drugs, but it definitely does seem to be getting more and more. I think I heard a story the other week where somebody had ordered some off the dark web in the United Kingdom, had a lot of this crystal stuff delivered to them and the

Speaker 1 (01:00:47.41)
interesting, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09.772)
police tracked them down and they made like a little TV show out of it. Yeah, so I mean, we are catching up, aren't we? So this conversation has definitely been important to even my friends and family and people that listen in the United Kingdom to the current trends in the States and what could be possible for this country and to spread that knowledge down through the children as well.

That's the most important thing we can do.

Yep, definitely. Well, thanks, Brian, for coming on to iMedia. I really appreciate you reaching out. And if anybody's listening to this on one of the podcast platform apps, Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, just to mention a few, you can find the video version of this on YouTube, clips on TikTok. And equally, if you're watching this and prefer to listen to podcasts, you can get it wherever you get your podcasts. So this has been Brian Townsend on episode 23 and...

Yeah, thank you so much, Brian. It's been eye opening. You know, sad circumstances that we meet, ultimately very important, isn't it?

Absolutely. Thank you again for the opportunity.