The Outdoor Gibbon
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The Outdoor Gibbon
16 From Auction Hunters to Air Force Airguns: Ton Jones on Outdoor Ethics
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Ton Jones, renowned from Auction Hunters and currently serving as Research and Destruction Director for Air Force Airguns, brings his wealth of hunting expertise and outdoor wisdom to this rich conversation about ethical hunting practices, firearms education, and the joys of harvesting wild game.
Beginning with stories of his childhood introduction to shooting—starting with air rifles at just three years old—Ton paints a vivid picture of America's traditional approach to teaching firearms safety as a foundational skill. This early education created respect for weapons and established crucial safety practices that become second nature. His perspective offers a stark contrast to countries where firearms education is often avoided entirely, creating fear rather than responsibility.
The discussion delves into the troubling disconnect between modern society and food sources. "People don't put two and two together that that chicken nugget probably had eyes less than 60 days ago," Ton observes, highlighting how hunters maintain a more honest relationship with their food. This awareness extends to conservation, where Ton passionately explains that "the most money put into land and wildlife conservation comes from hunters"—challenging media narratives that often paint hunters in a negative light.
Ton shares fascinating insights about Air Force Airguns' innovative technologies, including the development of arrow guns and large-caliber air rifles capable of ethically harvesting substantial game. His stories of hunting exotic species in Texas and encounters with wildlife in Australia reveal his deep connection to nature and understanding of animal behavior.
Perhaps most compelling is Ton's call for unity among hunters across different disciplines: "Has anybody ever thought of what the common denominator is? We're all out in the wild, we're all hunting." This sentiment of community and shared purpose exemplifies the true spirit of ethical hunting that transcends method or technique.
Join us for this authentic, unfiltered conversation that captures the essence of hunting as both practical food harvesting and a meaningful way to connect with our natural world. Whether you're an experienced hunter or simply curious about where your food comes from, Ton's perspective will challenge you to think differently about our relationship with wildlife and conservation.
Hello and welcome to the Outdoor Gibbon episode 16, ton Jones. Many people will know him from the hit TV series Auction Hunters. He's also one of the R&D directors for Air Force Airguns in the States. As well as that, he's an avid hunter who's been hunting from an early age. But before we get on and listen to the podcast we recorded with him the other evening, I thought we'd just have a quick recap as to where we are and what was happening in in the year I think my last podcast.
Speaker 2:I was going to be heading down to staffordshire to the stalking show. Uh yep, so that went ahead. We went down there, caught up with a load of people. The show this time was absolutely fantastic. Much bigger than last year, more stands there, lots of people to talk, to catch up with um bumped into loads of people and just generally had a good day. Very busy on saturday morning. It quietened off fairly quickly in the afternoon. It's definitely one of those shows that if you're into deer stalking and outdoor activities, that's what it caters for. There's there's no, none of the rubbish that you get at other shows. There's nobody trying to sell you a hot tub or something like that. Every stand that was there literally had something relevant to deer stalking or deer tracking or processing high seats or firearms, shotguns, etc. It's just a well-organized, well put together show that it says exactly what it does on the tin kind of thing. As well as that, my stay down in leicestershire was staying at a friend's farm again and I got the opportunity to get out, get another muntjac and, uh yeah, dropped a couple of foxes at the same time. So happy keeper and all is good.
Speaker 2:Anyway, let's get on with the main content. As I say, we recorded this the other evening with with tun and hopefully you'll enjoy it. Welcome to the outdoor given podcast. Today. I'm very I've got a very special guest. We've actually got tun jones. Uh, you may have seen him on things like auction hunters. He's also the director of research and destruction for air force air guns. Welcome, ton. How you doing?
Speaker 2:absolutely wonderful, thank you for having me on. No, thank you. Um, so let's, uh, let's, get get started and can you tell us sort of a bit about how you got into shooting and things like that and and your background and where it's come from?
Speaker 3:like that and your background and where it's come from. Shooting was one of the earliest memories of my childhood. It started with my grandfather and my father as kind of a rite of passage. Growing up we weren't allowed to go hunting or backpacking with my father and my grandfather until we were efficient with an air rifle. We actually started out with an air rifle that he had bought out of a catalog Sears and Roebuck.
Speaker 2:Oh right, okay cool.
Speaker 3:It was a Silverstreak, benjamin Sheridan, silverstreak, 20 cal and he would set out old pull-top oil cans at like five meters and we would have to shoot them and hit them five times and take a couple steps back, shoot it again five times without missing, and once we were efficient to a certain amount of steps back, my grandfather would take us out and my father would take us out and get those huge marshmallows of fluff that they sell here in the US and he would throw it out in the stock pond.
Speaker 3:All right, and we'd have to be able to shoot the marshmallow with that 20 cal, and if we did that, then he got a little bit cheeky because he would take his foot and tap the water and make it bounce, oh fantastic. So yeah, that was how we started with the air rifles, and once we were successful, we were able to go to like rim fires, okay, and and step our way up from hunting rabbits and small game to center fire and go deer hunting, bird hunting, um, and it was just a natural progression yeah, yeah, yeah, because obviously the the us and the uk were sort of completely different with the way that firearms and gun law works.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, every child really learns about firearms from an early age, whereas over here it's very different. You, you find that a lot of people are much more reserved now about guns and it's all. Well, it just seems to be our national press thing. It's guns are going to kill you. It's like, well, it's actually. It's not the gun, it's the person behind it, isn't it?
Speaker 3:exactly, and that's that's when we grew up. It was nothing for me to it was. It was absolutely different than the way it is now growing up. When we were, I could remember being eight, nine years old, having a ruger 1022 bungee corded to my handlebars of my bicycle, driving down to the safeway or the five and dime and with 50 cents, getting a box of 22 ammo and the ice cream. And how fantastic and it was like my grandpa would say, hey, flip me a quarter or a half dollar and say, hey, go get yourself a box of 22 and go get yourself ice cream. I want to see you out in the back practicing and being and learning how to shoot. And we would go get it. But he would say he's all the second. I see you're not being safe. I want to come out and whoop your butt.
Speaker 3:Yeah no, absolutely yeah, it was ingrained in us from a very young age proper firearm safety, proper handling, trigger control, barrel safety, like where I mean it was. It was no different than people learning how to walk, ride a bike, anything else.
Speaker 2:It was part of growing up yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, and I think I did it with my kids even just with like nerf guns, muzzle awareness. Start them off that young and suddenly you get out in the field. You don't have to worry about them because all of a sudden it's so ingrained. The same way you've learned that's just second nature straight away.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it was actually kind of amusing nowadays because, when it comes down to certain things, like people today are like my god, you're like your kids are handling a firearm. I said, yeah, I know I started them a little later than I did. Like excuse me. I said yeah, I know my, my boy's five. I waited till he was five before I started teaching him how to shoot an air rifle. They're like like what do you mean? You started late.
Speaker 2:I said yeah, I started like at three years old.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. It was like holy crap and people were like, oh my God, you started late. Yeah, I was three years old, with my brothers and my boy is five others I and my boys, five and by five years old we were on rim fires and actually practicing with rimfire 22s.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, and and I think your ability then to understand it and respect it is so much better. Um, we, we're well as you. As I said, we're up against it in this country. You mentioned the word guns and people take a step back. I do a lot with the, the scouts, and we've been doing a lot of air rifle shooting with them, and a lot of the parents know that obviously I do a lot of shooting. So there's no, there's never a fear and a worry. But you speak to other scout groups and mention air guns and it's complete and utter like you can't teach my child to use a gun. It's like, well, actually shooting is a great hobby and it's a, it's a fantastic skill and and um ability to control and do things. So, yeah, it's, um, it's, we're always up against it, and I think you guys are suffering quite badly over there with um, with quite a bit of problems going along the uh the.
Speaker 3:The scariest thing is. The biggest way to make a problem is to tell people they shouldn't learn about something exactly yeah okay there, we don't want you to learn about this.
Speaker 3:This is bad. Well, why do? Why shouldn't we learn about it? Well, you shouldn't learn about it until this age. Well, if we start teaching everybody about things early on, I mean that helps you explain stuff, make it part of ingrained in your life and culture, so it's not such a shock. I mean, granted, we bring people out. I've taken people hunting that have never seen a firearm other than television and we have to put them in a training course. And I get a lot of people from germany, netherlands that have seen guns in museums.
Speaker 2:Um, I had, I had a gentleman from uh beverly in the uk okay that uh had never even owned a knife wow, okay, right, yeah, and suddenly you're taking him out hunting kind of thing, and yeah and he's I'm like okay, hey, let's grab some knives.
Speaker 3:And he just kind of like froze. I'm like what's going on? He's you don't understand. We're not allowed to have knives. I'm like, what are you? Oh, that's right, you can't have knives. And I'm like I mean me, um, I mean me.
Speaker 2:I'm yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm holding an eight inch folding blade. I'm like, what do you mean? And it was just a shocker for him and it took us an extra day and a half of like training with him. Yeah, just, and we went and got. We were we had planned on going on a deer hunt, okay, and it was not happening. So we, we went out and got the air guns, broke out some air guns. We're like, okay, we're going to start this and I don't mean it in a bad way, but I started out like I was teaching my kids how to shoot because it's it was all the way down to the safety of everything taught him to pull the trigger with nothing in the in the barrel yeah, not loaded and started the whole progression over and he was by the end of the first day. He was so excited that guns don't kill people, he realized. He realized really quickly.
Speaker 3:Oh, this thing doesn't just magically shoot and you can't pull the trigger and the bullet magically goes to the target. Because he in his mind from television and the news thought, no matter where you point it, if you pull the trigger, the bullet's going to magically go and hit the target.
Speaker 2:Yes, no, no, no. And again it's the bullet's going to magically go and hit the target. Yes, no, no, no. And and it's that again it's. It's the lack of education and the whole thing you say about knives. As a child growing up, I remember my grandfather used to just always give me a different pen knife, like you'd go and see him he'd be like oh, here's another one for you. And it was just I had pen knives and pipe knives and all sorts of things that he'd given me and and and. For my kids now it's like well, I've always started them with knives and taught them about it. And but there's so many children out there, we, as I say, with the scout groups, you give them a sharp knife and you go. It's a sharp knife, and they're like well, what do I do with it? Well, you keep the pointy bit away from you and you cut things with it. But, yeah, just the control and the ability that we've lost as a nation. It's horrendous. And how do you prepare these children for the future?
Speaker 3:Yeah, we will beat it to death that you're not supposed to run with scissors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:But at what point do we really in life? Hey'm sitting down a desk cutting a piece of paper. I want to get up and do a hundred meter sprint. Give me a freaking break. At what point is that really necessary? But okay, hey, how to properly use a pocket knife in life when you're opening up boxes. If you're at work, you're like you can go into almost any place of business in the us. Someone is going to have a pocket knife. It is a utility tool here to cut boxes, cut things open. I mean, I still have that is hamburger and steak residue on my pocket knife, that's like. But it's this tools that are out there that will help define this world.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:No, totally are now like the evil. And let's forget about the people behind it. Forks didn't make people fat, people made people fat. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have. I have a gun that's on my wall. That is an ongoing joke, it is absolutely my friends come over and we had a camera on it for the first year and a half, I think. We took it down at 516 days that the gun had not gone off the wall and killed anybody. We took the bullets and put bullets all around it and we said, oh, like it was like day 299. The gun still not got off the wall and killed anybody. It must be a good gun. It must have been raised, right.
Speaker 3:It must have been raised with ethics and I'm like well, let's go get a bad bullet and put it in with the good bullets and let's load it and chamber it and put it back on the wall. Now it's loaded and cocked and still it has not got off the wall and killed anybody exactly and I think that was well.
Speaker 2:We we had the airgun ban, not the airgun ban. We had the handgun ban occur in the UK now. That took away a lot of clubs that were genuine people wanted to shoot. However, our biggest crime right now is illegal handguns. It's like where, where have all these handguns come from? But there's certain parts of the uk you could go to and if you know the right people and you ask the right questions, you can get an illegal handgun and it hasn't taken them off the streets.
Speaker 3:They're still there the, the people sitting on those fancy cushions and mahogany rooms making rules, are not smart enough to realize that criminals don't care what you put on paper. No, exactly, they really don't. And it's like oh, we're gonna, we're to send you to jail. And they're like well, let's see, I'm unemployed, I have nothing going for me. You're going to give me a place to sleep, you're going to feed me, and for the most part, it's not that horrible, because I have more rights in jail than I do out on the streets. What's the downside? Because criminals don't care about what you put on paper, they're going to do it anyways exactly, yeah the law-abiding citizen is the only one that follows the law we're the ones that always get.
Speaker 3:Basically, we lose something else, and that's how it goes, and it seems that nowadays, the sad part is the people that are writing these laws are making more and more lot of buying citizens criminals. Yeah, they're writing more more honest citizens of every country.
Speaker 2:They're writing them into criminals pretty much if you do, yeah, yeah, totally, um, and it's quite sad. Anyway, let's dive back into where we were so obviously types of hunting. What sort of what's? What's your sort of main go-to for hunting? What do you enjoy doing? Is it going after deer? Is it going after, like, wild boar pigs and things like that?
Speaker 3:I absolutely love uh exotic game hunting. Here in texas. Pig hunting is deer hunting is fun for me, but it's very limited season and unfortunately deer hunting here is right in the middle of it's. Uh, august is the opening of archery, okay, yeah yeah a brief, brief moment.
Speaker 3:For september, october, it opens and closes depending on the state here in the us, um, and what happens is it lands right between our air gun tournament season, so, all right, I don't get to go out. Then the moment I get to go out, it's uh, the us has thanksgiving, then it's christmas, so it's really hard for me to go deer hunting right, but I've actually been able to harvest a deer the last two years with the bumper of my truck fantastic.
Speaker 2:It's a bit different to take it out with a, with a rifle, but hey ho yeah, and the the, the game warden here laughs he's like ton.
Speaker 3:You really should stop filling your deer tags with your truck. I said, yeah, I know, thank you, it's getting very expensive. But for me, exotic game hunting like Oryx, I like Axis Axis is one of my favorites Black Buck, red Deer because it's open your when it's an exotic in texas it's year-round. Oh, cool, okay. And if it's an invasive species like pig and boar, it's year-round right, right.
Speaker 2:So there's no. So there's no um tags needed for boar or anything like that.
Speaker 3:It just is basically clusters, a vermin type of thing yeah, it's, pigs are a nuisance species and some ranchers will actually invite you out to come eradicate them. Oh, cool, okay, so it's an absolute blast. But when it's coming to harvesting for when I go out to harvest for food for the family I go after the big ones like, uh, red deer, okay, um, and axis, or oryx, or a neil guy, something large. Uh, for me, the flavor of deer is not the top of my list right, I go for more of like the elk, the axis, red, deer, black buck.
Speaker 3:Um, it's a lot better tasting to me and my kids so and I want to get a bigger exotic game animal so I can take one or two and feed my family for the year, versus having to shoot six, six white tail and be like ah yeah, it's, it's a bit like we shoot.
Speaker 2:Obviously we've got the roe roe deer over here, which is quite small, so currently I've just butchered two today, but there's another two in the chiller and it's it. You end up. They're so small it's like, well, that does a few meals and there you go and but yeah, we've just literally just before coming on this call with you, just fed the kids. Uh, we've just had wild boar for for dinner tonight oh yeah, see.
Speaker 3:And my kids didn't know what, uh, store-bought meat tasted like till their first birthday. And on their first birthday they got a rack of lamb right and they were like, well, that's not bad. And I was like, okay, the first time they had a store-bought hamburger they were so mad at me really yeah, they're just the difference in taste and everything about it. Oh, my oldest was so disappointed. He looked at me. He's all daddy, this does not taste good. He's all actually, it's quite disgusting fantastic. I was like. I was like that's a hamburger.
Speaker 2:He's like no, it is not it is bad but that's really good again. And obviously, yeah, you provide all the meat for the family and things like that, and that's what I try and do here. We've got chest freezers full of food, um, whether it be pheasant or partridge um everything along those lines, just purely because my children don't know, they don't have chicken, so chicken for them is pheasant or partridge um, we use a lot. We get a lot of duck, um that we don't use any beef, so everything there is venison, um, I've obviously I do a bit of stuff for a few shepherds, so we get the occasional lamb and things like that. So, yeah, know exactly where everything comes from. That's in my freezer, which is really, really important yeah, pheasant is another really good one.
Speaker 3:I love pheasant. Oh, man, and uh, we do get wild beef here because we're in texas, okay, and um, I've had friends come in from all over the world and I was like, hey, yeah, we're gonna have, uh, some wild beef. And that, look right there. They're kind of like, what is wild beef? Yeah, exactly what is wild beef. Wild beef, yeah, exactly what is wild beef.
Speaker 3:And everybody thinks, oh well, cows on these big farm and ranches. I said, yeah, but there's cows out like Watusi's and Texas Longhorns and there's cattle out there that are not grain-fed. They're just. And people are like, oh, grass-fed beef. I was. I was like no, that's not quite how it works and that's just a marketing ploy. I said let's go get a wild cow. And they're like, oh well, that's not fair. They're just so friendly and sweet. I said, okay, sure, we took this, we took this guy out hunting and I was like, hey, there's a wild cow, so why don't you pull them in the pasture and get them to feed out of your truck? He pulled up and he went to go walk up to the gate and it charged the gate and smashed the whole front of the gate and it took off in the field. We spent the next four days trying to find it 5800 acres I was gonna say it's not.
Speaker 2:When you say field, it's uh, it's just like yeah, half of half of the uk, kind of thing oh yeah, to cross this ranch.
Speaker 3:People are like oh, it's a, you're hunting on a ranch. I said, yeah, we're hunting on a ranch. Throw to go from one gate to the next is an hour and a half drive. Good grief, yeah, yeah, yeah, you'll drive for an hour, hour and a half, through the off-roading brush to get there yeah, yeah, yeah, and these, these animals are probably not seeing anybody.
Speaker 2:They're, they're out there, they're just that's it, they. They're just as exactly as you say.
Speaker 3:They're wild beef at the end of the day, it's wild beef and wild beef and people are like, well, how did they eat? I said the stuff in the wild, no, but no one's out here to feed it, like grass and hay. So where do you think the grass and hay come from? It's called coastal alfalfa. It comes in big rolls, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:I said, yeah, it comes from those wild fields out there. Yeah, yeah, but it is. That's that society, isn't it? We've, I think society's taken a massive disconnect from actually the process of having to say that that disneyfied character of a cow or a lamb or a deer is actually that piece of meat that's on that little polystyrene tray, and that's the biggest problem. Disney has a lot to answer for, dude that struggle is real.
Speaker 3:People don't understand and people make that joke all the time. Though, why do you have to go hunt? Why don't understand? And people make that joke all the time, they're all. Why do you have to go hunt? Why don't you just go get meat from the store? They have plenty of it there. Yeah, where do you think it comes from? The cooks in the back? I'm like, oh wow but.
Speaker 2:But that that's the problem. I think it's the. I think we as hunters have that responsibility that we know exactly what we've done and we take responsibility for the animal that we take and we give it great respect. The people, a lot of people, don't want to have to have that almost guilt and and I think on their hands that to say that they've actually been out and that piece of meat had had a life, but they just see it on a plastic tray and as far as they're concerned it's just a piece of meat, whereas actually we as the the actual hunter, really do have we have probably have more respect for the animal than anybody, anybody that just walks into a supermarket and buys a piece of meat off the shelf oh yeah, without a doubt, people, people have a huge disconnect.
Speaker 3:They think when they go up to the supermarket or the fast food they never put two and two together that that chicken nugget or that hamburger patty or whatever they're eating.
Speaker 2:That taco, probably less than 60 days ago, had eyes yeah, yeah, totally, and it and it moved, or or or wandered around the place yeah, I'm all I hate to bring it to you, but that was part of an animal that pooped and peed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just telling you I know and and I think I don't know, I don't know where where this turning point in the in the modern world actually came that we really have kind of flipped on it completely. All right, yeah, the rest of the world you go to china and places like that, no problem at all. They understand that the piece of meat that they're eating, yeah, it lives in the shed and it lives below the house and that's going to be dinner tomorrow. But as a developed world, we've kind of completely flipped on, flipped on ahead and go.
Speaker 3:We don't want to know where it comes, we don't want to know where our food comes from yeah, with all the technology that this world has, there's quite a few countries that have had a major disconnect in technology. Where they like we can, they'll research the hell out of anything, but where their own food source comes from, like we get, we go into it all the time because as hunters, as hunters and sportsmen, the biggest conservation of land and wildlife in the world comes from hunters. Yeah, yeah, the most money put into land and wildlife conservation. Because I'm on both sides. I've ran wildlife rescues. I still, to this day, do wildlife rescue and aiding a lot of government agencies and helping them do animal removal and relocation. And I hunt, and without hunters in this world there would be complete land devastation and there'd be 10 times the animals that are extinct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I, I, yeah and it's. It's a big thing that's happening here, uh, on the scottish scottish hillside, uh, with the banning of grouse shooting and all the rest of it. The guys, the keepers that are up there, the the work they do means that there's diversity in wildlife. But as far as people down in the cities see, oh it's just a bunch of posh people going around the hillside shooting things. They don't understand that these game keepers are out protecting, taking away that the fox is the vermin that's up on the hillside and keeping diversity up there. But nobody sees that because the press just report it as a bunch of very posh people with lots of money going and shooting on the hill yeah, the the press is a whole nother joke nowadays because it's it's not about news.
Speaker 3:Uh, the the the press of the. I think, really think that the media and press of the 80s and 90s have gone away. After pretty much the 90s. Press has become just a marketing and a sales tool for whoever owns the company at the time. It's just a marketing tool?
Speaker 2:yeah, just just selling, selling something that's going to sell them a product at the end of the day, isn't it really?
Speaker 3:it is, and they make the most money off of fear and turmoil?
Speaker 2:yeah, because that that's what sells, because people, people, gravitate towards something like that. If you put out a really nice story, no, nobody's going to buy that paper, are they? But if you put out some sort of scaremongering type of story, you just sold thousands, millions of copies of whatever it is and and you had millions of downloads, so instant it's. That's, that's the way they do it, it.
Speaker 3:It really does crack me up because, if you can tell it's a slow media day, because they'll tell you a really heartwarming story, then followed up by something that usually wouldn't be that tragic, but because they followed up it was such a nice heartwarming story. Well, these kids just got adopted after 20 years of being alone and in foster care, and it was this family adopted the whole family of seven orphaned kids. But this family got in a car wreck and the guy got out and shot all six of them and I'm like, oh well, really, really guys yeah, yeah, yeah because, because nothing to report, isn't it?
Speaker 2:and they start dragging up rubbish and make and almost making things up then to, oh yeah, to sell, sell stuff. And I think that's that's our problem as as, again, as hunters, we've got this massive uphill struggle and the bit I think the biggest. We've got this massive uphill struggle and I think the biggest problem we've got in the hunting community is we're all fighting against each other in some ways. And if we could actually come together and work together, rather than everybody like, you've got your guys that are your bird hunters and you've got your deer stalkers, if everybody could actually just work together, we might actually be able to make this thing work that would be absolutely amazing, because what you said is 100 true and I I hear it every day.
Speaker 3:Well, well, you guys aren't real hunters. We shoot traditional archery. Well, that's not real hunting. We shoot compound. You shoot crossbow. Well, you guys don't do it right. We use black powder. You're a centerfire shooter. Oh, you're not a real hunter. You use semi-auto, we're bolt action. I was like, oh, we reload. I'm like dude. Has anybody ever thought of what the common denominator? We're all out in the wild, we're all hunting. Why can't everybody just like get the stick out of their ass and become like teammates and become one? Exactly, it's just get along.
Speaker 2:We're all out there doing the same exact thing, just a different way the the end result is you end up with something that you've harvested and you're going to take it home and eat it. How you do that, it doesn't matter. If you want to shoot it traditional archery or you want to go out with black powder, you you crack on. But if we've got to work together on this, because otherwise the rift inside us is what's going to tear actually the community that we've got apart and it lets the anti side of it in.
Speaker 3:Really yeah, I don't care if you're out there with the atlatl or an ar, as long as you're out there doing something with nature, hunting, and we're all out there with the same purpose, doing what all of us love as a family in a community.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that that's the key. And especially to be able to well, you're already doing it to bring the new generation, the youngsters, in so they appreciate why we do it. And it's not just you, as my mother would say. You're being sort of, you're running around shooting the head out your head, shooting everything in the countryside. It's like, well, no, mum, you come up here and you, you eat the food that I produce. So it's it's getting that across. And if we can teach the kids even if my children don't do it and they decide that hunting isn't for them, but they've had the education and if somebody raises a point or says something, they can turn around and defend and say, no, this is the reason it's done yeah, my oldest boy.
Speaker 3:I don't think he's going to be a hunter, he already he's. He's we take him hunting now. He's like daddy, it's really not my thing. You know, I like fishing. I'm like cool, that's cool, he's a, he's a. I don't want to shoot bambi, but bambi tastes good. I said, that's fine. My little one's like oh, my little one man, me and that kid are gonna go rounds. We're out hunting rabbit and I'm drawing down on it with my rifle and he goes to look in his chair, squeaks as I'm pulling the trigger and off it goes and I miss. He looks over me, he's all daddy, I'm disappointed. You missed mike, but you moved. He's like daddy, you missed. I'm disappointed.
Speaker 2:I'm telling mom oh, that's the worst, mean you were gonna go round, kid no, my, my daughter nine, and her comment is I'm allowed to go out and shoot the daddy deer, anything with antlers, but leave mummy deers alone. And it's like, well, we sometimes have to deal with them as well. But no, she's, she's been around it all the time so she's seen everything and and normally there's that she'll come out and she'll touch it. Do you want to have a go? No, not yet, but I can see it being one of those things. She's been out snorkeling with me and things like that. So, yeah, it's only only a matter of time before she's behind behind the uh, behind the rifle, wanting to have a go. So that that's really cool and I, um, yeah, it's just one of those things getting the younger generation into it, I think so, so crucial. Now, you've recently obviously you recently went over to Germany to the EWAR show.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Tell us about it. I'm assuming you're over there with the, the work you do with the with air force air guns, um, and rapid air works, okay, uh, showing off, uh, the new raw hm 1000x micro hunter okay, new compact hunting raw. And uh, air force talon bolt arrow gun and uh, air force, talon bolt, arrow gun.
Speaker 2:Okay, right, right, yeah, so is that? That's like it's an air gun that you literally slide like slide a crossbow bolt into.
Speaker 3:I'm assuming, yes, you slide over a barrel and shoot. Oh cool, we actually developed that arrow, that arrow gun in 2012.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 3:When I was still working on the show, I had traveled out to Air Force on one of our breaks and sat down with John McCaslin, the owner, and I said, hey, I'd really like an air gun that shoots arrows. And he's like what the hell? And we discussed it, we were going over with it and we'd actually built one and we hunted with one and we took it out with uh, fish and wildlife and we did some hunting with it. And it was amusing because at the time we had talked to the local fish and wildlife and they're like we don't know what to do with this because there's no rules, no laws. No, we don't know what the application would be yeah, because obviously it doesn't quite fall.
Speaker 2:obviously, where does it fall? It doesn't, because it doesn't fall as a crossbow and it doesn't fall as a firearm, does it At that point?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's not, and it's not. It's not an air gun, it's not, doesn't shoot a pellet. No, it doesn't shoot Projectiles, it's a shoots across a bolt, but it's not archery. And there was just there was so many weird things that didn't do. So while we were working on that and waiting for an answer, we had actually developed that texan, uh, airgun, the 45 texan okay, yeah yeah, so it got put in the closet. The arrow gun got put away for 10 years.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So it just sat there and then all of a sudden brought it back out, yeah, and we watched people start releasing their versions over the years and we're like, okay, you know what, we're going to do something with it now, and we've made not many modifications. We're going to do something with it now and we've made not many modifications. But with the new demands, the new increase in speeds and performance, we had to make a few adjustments and we brought it back after 10 years of it sitting there fantastic because obviously the range of the range of calibers that air force do.
Speaker 2:I noticed that you go up to some some big old calibers and and there's been um looking at the website and stuff like that some some big things shot with them as well oh yeah, we go all the way up to the 510 wow 620 grain projectile it's phenomenal the what, what an air gun can actually do, and when you see that it did, the devastating powers of the equivalent of a bullet gun at the end of the day, isn't it really?
Speaker 2:yeah, 45 long call, yeah, yeah, and and it's all. It's all air powered, it's just um. Yeah, I think I remember watching. There was a one company in the uk I think it's day state or somewhere like that. They did a 30 cal or 303 um and and you saw them out hunting with that and obviously people posted it on the internet and everybody. You can't shoot deer with an air gun. It's like, well, actually, at the end of the day, if it's putting the projector out with the right velocity and and it's giving the amount of kinetic energy it needs, you can I've hunted a lot of animals with.
Speaker 3:I've taken pigs with a 257 yep and lots of ram um over 300 pound pigs with the 45 with the 50, what's its, what's its range like?
Speaker 2:because obviously that's a, that's a major thing, obviously air power, you do get a big drop off, don't you?
Speaker 3:but what sort of the range you can, you can get out of these it depends on the caliber and a lot of it comes down to the shooter's capability. Okay, okay, um. We tell everybody to keep their when hunting with an air gun. It's for ethical reasons. We tell everybody to keep their shots within 100 yards. Yeah, yeah, um, I have stretched out past that. On on a hog with our 45.
Speaker 2:I've taken hogs at 200 okay, but you've obviously you've obviously got a fair drop off on that projectile after a certain range, then I take it um shooting the lighter grain projectiles with our texan 45, like a 250 grain projectile with our 45 Texan carbon fiber.
Speaker 3:Yep, there was not much of a drop. It's coming out at almost a thousand feet per second and it's cooking it on impact. Yeah, that pig just dropped. It was game over. And with our 308 granite I've hunted smaller animal coyotes at 150 to 200. Just devastating.
Speaker 2:But you wouldn't, you wouldn't think that, yeah, that again, that's it. You say it's an air gun and people are just like, oh yeah, but, but it can't do that. But I've got a, an fac, a firearms, rated um two, two and yeah it's. It's the equivalent at sub 100 yards of like shooting with a rimfire and it is fantastic yeah, we've taken ground squirrels and prairie dogs with the raw shooting 25 cal.
Speaker 3:We've taken them at 200. It just pop, pop them. I'm like it. It's about the shooter's capabilities. The, the projectile and the rifle will do it.
Speaker 2:Well, not all rifles will do it, but if you know your, your tool, your device, it comes down to the shooter's capabilities I think that goes with everything, though it doesn't matter what, what, what, what, what you're, what you, what you say they're using it. If the shooter's capabilities aren't there, then yeah, it doesn't. You can have the best, most accurate rifle, you can have a quarter inch, uh moa. But if the guy, if the guy can't shoot, it doesn't matter. Or, or the classic one in you get is, is the boy that gets buck fever, or something like that, and he's like, looking at the target, you can see it, yeah, and the thing that's 30 yards to the right falls over. It's like we're looking at the same target here.
Speaker 3:Exactly, and that's what we go to these competitions and you get to see people shoot and you watch them. Oh man, this gun's a piece of crap. Oh my god, no, this is not working. That's not working. That's not working. And I've had bad days at the range, people like what happened? And I was straight up telling them well man, I suck today and they're like what I said yeah, I screwed up, so what'd you do? I said I don't know the gun's on but I'm off, and yeah, it's just own it because it's not the device's fault, it's not the gun's fault, it's the operator. It's just like going back to what we discussed in the beginning the gun didn't get up off the shelf and commit the crime, it's the operator. And just like in competition and just like in hunting, the device didn't miss the operator did exactly.
Speaker 2:The operator is is is what causes the problem so well. While you're over at ework, obviously you had a look at the um, some of the night vision kit and the thermal with pulsar. Have you managed to get one of those yet over with you, or is that something?
Speaker 3:I have a call that I'm supposed to be placing with them next week with pulsar over here. Oh, fantastic. I ran into them again at uh nra and they promised me a device. Finally, and fantastic, I'm going to hopefully acquire one in the next couple weeks because I want to go hunting with it.
Speaker 2:I was going to say you look quite when, when I saw the video that uh that you and lee posted up, you look quite impressed looking at that, uh, that piece of kit they had on there.
Speaker 3:Oh my god I was actually really impressed with that um the having the ability to go day and night. When you're out hog hunting here in texas. One of the most amazing parts about it and one of the most difficult parts about it is you start out in the evening time at low light and you hunt into the night yep, and sometimes you'll hunt it in from night into the low light, early morning into full light. So you need the ability to go with the night vision from daylight to dark and dark to daylight, and that has the capabilities of doing full night vision and daytime, or you have light and thermal. I mean you can swap back and forth with a pitcher and pitcher yes, yeah, that would.
Speaker 2:That's that's the pretty cool part about it, isn't it? I mean? So, yeah, I can see that for for the pig hunting and all the rest of it. It's, it's a game changer. Yeah, it's a sad thing, but in scotland we're not yet allowed to use any any image enhancing optics for for being out shooting deer. Uh, you can use it for pigs because they're classified as vermin so we can actually go out with thermals, but uh, yeah, you can't have a digital optic on any of your rifles I don't think we can have them for white tail deer okay right because it's a native game species.
Speaker 3:Uh, we can do it for exotics exotics and non-native and exotics.
Speaker 2:Non-native and um pests so just just going back to that, because you keep saying about our exotics and non-natives, do they still fall under the same tag system, or or not in the states? No, so when you talk about red deer and things like that, they are. They're not on a tag system. So if you wanted to hunt a red in the over where you are in texas, that's absolutely fine, because it's it's not a native species.
Speaker 3:Yeah texas, that's absolutely fine because it's it's not a native species. Yeah, like in texas, there's no native species of elk, so you don't need a tag. Oh right, okay, yeah, it's not a native species here, but I yeah.
Speaker 2:If you go to new mexico or arizona, it's a native species there, so you have to have a tag I've always, because it's always been one of those questions about the tag system and how it sometimes works and I can never get a clear answer because obviously every outfitter says, oh, you've got to have a tag to come here, and if you want for example, you want to go to colorado you've got to have your tag to go after elk and things like that. But I didn't realize that if it's non-native and it's in a different state, you don't need a tag, so that does answer a huge amount of questions, right yeah, because pigs like uh.
Speaker 3:If you hunt pigs in california you need a tag, but they're cheap okay, so that's they're not.
Speaker 2:They're not classified as invasive in california. They're not classified as invasive species.
Speaker 3:They're considered as a native species how bizarre, how literally, how bizarre.
Speaker 2:Yep, so you cross the border and suddenly they're invasive, or you get pop into california and they're not. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3:So you have to check every state's rules and the thing is. But every state requires you, no matter if it's a native or non-native species, to purchase a hunting license before hunting in their state okay, so that's specifically to each state.
Speaker 2:You'd have to get a different hunting license. Now, does that? Obviously, if you were going out, let's just say taking a bow out, um, that hunting license. Still, you have to get a hunting license. Do you have to pass any like hunter training for for using them?
Speaker 3:yeah, you're supposed to have a. Uh, hunters, hunters. Education is nationwide for us okay so that's like the is.
Speaker 2:Is that the I bet? Because we've I've obviously done my bow hunting qualifications, so I've got, uh, an I bet, an internet, whatever it is. International bow hunters education program certificate yeah, this is just a gen.
Speaker 3:It's called general hunter's ed. Okay right it teaches you firearm and hunting safety. Um, it's a common knowledge class. It teaches you the common knowledge like um proper muzzle control, hunting daylight hours for like um half an hour before, half an hour before sunrise you can hunt, yep, half an hour after sunset okay right, don't shoot like if you know that there's someone in this direction, don't shoot in that direction.
Speaker 3:Um, if there's houses that you, if, if you cannot see beyond that tree line and you do not know what's beyond that tree line yeah, don't go and stick a bullet down there yeah, don't toss a bullet that direction because there could be someone something there. Um, it teaches, like, the basics, and what it does it's usually for kids that are 15, 16 years old okay getting and it what it does for the long-time hunters.
Speaker 3:It's just a common sense class, yeah, but it's a really good class for the youth getting into it because at a certain age you need to get your hunting license right and that's part of like the rite of passage is getting. Before you can get your hunting license, you need that hunter's education, which is nationwide I see again.
Speaker 2:Even that is something that probably doesn't filter across the uk, the germans you have to go through an education program. The scandinavians do it, the uk pretty much. You want a gun? Uh, you apply to the police force and they're getting. They're getting more strict about it now, but it used to be a case of oh, here you go, have a couple of rim fires and have a two, four, three, that's all you need and off you go and there was no real qualifications required or anything like that. Sometimes it was need and off you go and there was no real qualifications required or anything like that.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it was like you had, you might have to have a mentor or things, but again, there's no stipulation and rules in to say that you have to do this for being a deer stalker. So you I've had people come up that have shot deer for years and you say to them well, why haven't you done that? I've never been taught that and it's just like it's. It's a scary thought along the way that, yeah, but we just seem to work on that historical yeah, yeah, it's been done like that for years and years and years and that's the way it will always be done yeah, and that's that's one of the good things about being over here in the US is, if you want to learn, there's more than plenty of people that are out there willing to teach you.
Speaker 3:There's plenty of classes in every state, every city, every town, not just with the National Rifle Association, ducks Unlimited, but there's plenty of independent nonprofit groups that want to teach and educate. Every law enforcement fish and wildlife truck carries a hunter ed pack, a hunting guide. There's phone apps called outdoor annual for texas, so, no matter what state, you can download the app and training guide. Oh, brilliant, okay, you can pull up any of these apps. I can pull it up on my phone and it'll tell you okay, I'm in this county, inside this state, I'm in this zone, this is what animals are available and this is the time of year and this is what you can hunt. And if you want a tag, you can buy it online that's awesome, that really that.
Speaker 2:That it. I suppose that's the thing. It's so well organized and actually that's why there are you. You get to harvest some fantastic animals and I think that was the thing that pretty much saved the population of native species out. There was the tag system. In many ways, yeah, and it I yeah. There's so many people that want to hunt and that that's the beauty of it. The the uk, I think it's growing deer stalking market is suddenly it's had of it having a massive boom over here, but the number of deer are massive. But the biggest problem we have is you've got so many. What would we call them? Um, probably outfitters, as, as you guys would call them. We've got so many outfitters that they've some. They've got all the land tied up, so everything. If you want to go and stalk a hill red or something like that, you're going to pay money for it. It's. You can't. Just there's no, there's no public land like you guys have got where you can just go out and go shooting well, that's the.
Speaker 3:That's the big thing. Here in texas there's hardly any public land.
Speaker 2:If you want to hunt, you got to know somebody okay, that's cool but that in some ways that's kind of makes it that little bit safer, because at least you know there's not going to be 30 guys running around with firearms in the woods, kind of thing yeah, that's the thing, but.
Speaker 3:But a lot of landowners are cool. They're like hey, you know we do have outfitters that run our property. Yep, but they've made it abundantly clear to these outfitters they come second to anything else. They're like no, I got a friend hunting this weekend. You're not hunting, no matter how much money you're going to pay me. That's because outfitters. Outfitters get greedy.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, yeah no, totally, outfitters are uh, unique and there is a place for them in commerce and business. But with outfitters they, um, they sell a dream and they sell a skill and usually that skill we're gonna go here because I know the animals are going to be here. I'm like we went out with an outfitter just because the ranch we went on. They required here for three years. I said, okay, he was giving me this big long spiel about how to track these exotic game and I'm like, okay, perfect. I was like, wow, that's very interesting. He's telling me all these cool facts about how these animals migrate and move. They were all wrong and he didn't know.
Speaker 3:I've been in the wildlife industry my whole life and he's like all right, you want to sit on this side, this hillside right here, and you can see where these animals have been being pushed through. You can see by the way the trees are growing up, and they've been. That's how their bodies push them. I'm like, no, that's called the windward side of a tree. But you're listening, this guy, and he's missing the fact that there's game trails right behind him yep and we're 30 minutes into this guy talking non-stop.
Speaker 3:During a hunt he didn't shut up one time and as he's starting to walk off, me and my buddy lay down with our barrets and there's this beautiful oryx about 150 meters out and I was like no, we're gonna take this because I'm done hunting with this jack wagon. Pow, drop it. And the guy just comes out of his pants because and this thing drops and he's oh my god, you shot it. He said why didn't you tell me? I said because you didn't shut up long enough to tell him that this is over here. I said and that's not an animal rub, that's a windward side of the tree and everything you said is complete bullshit, bro but unfortunately, these guys, they they suddenly realize that they can make a lot of money for it and and they'll get.
Speaker 2:They'll get people in and they keep bringing people in and people come pay the money so they can tell. They can basically build the dream and tell you what you want to hear and just keep blowing smoke at you and a lot of people fall for it and they're sucked in. So I started my. My feedback for people was basically offering people free hunts. So I get people come over who've never shot before and we'll take them out. And even if they get to the point where they've got the crosshairs on on it and they don't want to pull the trigger, that's no problem. But normally they'll be up to like a hundred yards sub a hundred yards, maybe looking at a deer, and they'll be like that's something cool. I've never. I've never done that before, but everybody so far has been successful. So it's been it's always been a good one yeah, that's the.
Speaker 3:That's the thing it's with outfitters. They get paid whether someone pulls the trigger or not, and they don't care. And the more people that don't pull the trigger it's better off to them because they get to sell the next hunt well, if they've got that species or whatever they're looking for, it's still there, so we'll sell it again.
Speaker 2:We'll sell it again. And if somebody does actually take it, unfortunately, yeah, you get. You get paid once for it. Once it's dead, that's it. You can't pull the trigger again on it. Um. So yeah, I understand that and it's a shame really, because you hear horror stories we've we've had scandinavian guests and things like that that have been to different places and the amount of money they've paid to an outfitter and you think what we're actually getting, as as the guy taking them out, is not what they're paying and it's crazy money yeah and um, I've seen the outfitter gig, I've watched it and I'm like wow, it's just another, it's another genius marketing scam.
Speaker 3:And I'm like okay, if that's what y'all want to do I? I personally don't think. Unless I go to africa, I don't think I'll use another outfitter I suppose africa's the odd one, though, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's. It is that it really you do have to have somebody, that you have to have a guide that knows the place, because otherwise you'll be food for something pretty much. Yeah, everything wants to kill you. It's a bit like going to australia as well everything over there wants to bite you or kill you, kind of thing.
Speaker 3:Well, we went out to australia, which was an absolute blast. I got to hunt australia and the the guide. He said I'm not an outfitter, I'm a guide, he's all. I am taking you out, but he's all, mr tun, he's like. I want you to show me how to catch snakes. So I took him out for an evening of catching carpet pythons, diamond pythons, and we were chasing snakes up inside the bush. We and he was out chasing kangaroos and I showed him how to shoot a rifle, because up in the bush guns in Australia another next to impossible thing. But ranchers a few ranchers can have firearms. Okay.
Speaker 3:He had this very ancient 22 rimfire. The scope was put on with carpentry screws. Oh, but it was just the most amazing time. They were so humble about it. He's like I'm gonna take you out, but he's, I don't know what to look for. I just want to go with you so I will guide you around. I know the roads, but show me what to look for. I was like all right, let's go guy oh, fantastic.
Speaker 2:but but that some of those are the memories and that's what it's all about. I think any hunt you go on and share an experience, that that's kind of the actual pulling the trigger is the clinical part, that that just happens, it's no problem. But everything else that leads up to it and afterwards, those are the bits that live with you.
Speaker 3:My poor wife was with me and her brother who lives over there in Australia. You, my poor wife, was with me and her brother who lives over there in australia, and we drove up and down the roads for about five hours catching diamond pythons and carpet pythons, and three days later I proposed to her on the beach in australia on new year's eve fantastic absolutely brilliant, but there you go.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, you'll never forget that you're out there catching pythons and that's where. That's where you propose propose for marriage. Yeah, it was absolutely amazing. That is that that is fantastic. So let's bring this back around again. So, obviously, is there anything exciting? Have you got any hunts that are coming up in the near future that you're looking forward to, and oh my god.
Speaker 3:Yes, I am actually getting to go on a hunt with a very dear friend of mine, jim gilliland um, in just over a month. He is an absolutely amazing man. He is credited with the longest sniper shot in Iraq with a traditional 7.62x51.308 rifle.
Speaker 3:Okay an absolute, amazing, humble, down-to-earth veteran of war, wounded veteran um him and one other wounded vet. I got a call from one of my friends that has an exotic game ranch and said hey, ton, he's's, what are you doing? I said no, I'm just hanging out with a couple of vets. And he's like well, I got a bunch of animals on my property. I said by any chance, do you want to get rid of like three of them? He's like no. I said well, by any chance, you're going to let me shoot three of them? He's like I want an air gun. I said I want three animals. It's a deal fantastic.
Speaker 2:It was always a deal to be done yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I said I just want to be able to bring my buddies out and I want them to be able to shoot some axis deer okay, big axis deer. And he's like well, I don't want to charge them, I'm all, they've done a lot for this country, they've they're. I want to take him out for three or four days of just happiness and playtime. He's like deal, I'll cook. I said perfect, I'll see you in a month and we're gonna go out with air guns and hunt axis deer and have campfires and hang out and just have fun.
Speaker 2:That sounds like that's all it's about at the end of the day sometimes. And yeah, I look forward to seeing. I'm sure you'll put a picture up at some point and uh, yeah, look forward to seeing those yeah, these guys are just jim uh on social media.
Speaker 3:It's uh long underscore gunner on instagram and he is jim gilland. He is just a really cool down-to-earth guy, salt to the earth, just really humble, and he hangs out with me because I'm always talking crap to him and giving him hell. That's cool.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter at the end of the day, as long as you have fun, and I think that's all it's about. And I think that most of the shooting world it's about just sitting there and chatting about rubbish sometimes, and then when it comes down to it, you get. So yeah, we used to go to ireland deer stalking and it was. It was. It was five lads for a week, 90. At the time we were just sat inside with the fire going. But you go out, you do what you need to do. You come back in you'd have a cup of tea and just natter about all sorts of rubbish oh yeah, that's for years, jim's.
Speaker 3:For just over a year, jim's been trying to get me to understand how all those turrets work, because they're all turret turners spin the turret, move it back and forth, up and down and that's the funniest thing, because I am.
Speaker 3:I've had so many eye surgeries I'm pretty much blind right and I will zero my scope, like my center fire or my rim fires. I center my rim fires at 100. Yep, I center my center fires at two or three hundred, depending on what caliber my air guns. I zero at 75, unless they're a competition. I know it's 100 yards and then everything from that point on is a hold over or hold under or hold for windage. Nothing, everything, nothing ever gets touched and I use first focal plane so I always know what's center right, okay and it drives him absolutely nuts.
Speaker 3:He said well, this many clicks. I said, bro, my shoes were on it and I can't count that high. And he's like you've got to be kidding me. He's all you're gonna have to learn this.
Speaker 2:I said I've learned my whole life by doing holds yeah, yeah, yeah, and if it works for you, if it works it works and he's taking me out.
Speaker 3:He's like this many clicks I'm all. I started turning turrets. I said was I going left or right? He's like what do you mean? I said, I forgot which one I did.
Speaker 2:He's like oh my god, it's all messed up but I I suppose that there's definitely, there's definitely a world of people that, yeah, they like to dial in on their target and that they didn't pull the trigger because they know they've moved their zero. But yeah, I started off with air guns and it was holdovers and hold unders and yeah it, as I say, if it works, it works it works and he gets so mad because I'll do a hold and it hits.
Speaker 3:He's like how did you know where that was going to hit? I said because I know he's like, but how? I said I don't know, because I know he's like. Well, that's not an answer.
Speaker 3:I said, well, I don't know, but I know he's like, okay, so he'll get behind the scope and he'll see a target. And he's like, well, I need to do spin, spin, spin, click, click, click, click, pulls and shoots. I said, well, how did you know what to do? That he's, and he explains it. I said, bro, english, do I speak in english? I said no, you sound like you put a bunch of marbles in your mouth and drink some soda pop and try to explain it to me. I'm all. I don't understand crap. You're saying so we do. He teaches me how to tell me how many clicks to go and I hit my target. Then we were role reversal. He gets down behind the air gun or the rifle and he'll shoot. And if he misses, I said, oh, just hold it here. And he shoots and hits. He's all. How did you do that? I said, well, look at the grass, look at the things move. He's all. I hate you so what?
Speaker 2:obviously, yeah, yeah. So what scopes is then? Uh, do you favor? Obviously on the air guns, you need something with uh mill dots or a bit of the christmas tree reticle or something like that. Oh, yeah, the more debris on the scope for me, the better yeah, because it gives you something to actually move your aim points up and down.
Speaker 3:I need, I need. If there was a grid with a bunch of lines and dots all over it, it doesn't even have to mean anything if there's just someone through paint specs all over that lens just gives you a point to aim at I just need a reference yeah, and I.
Speaker 2:It's funny, isn't it, how? How everybody works slightly differently and, as you say, the more, the more information you can have on there, because you get something like the, the old night force ones and and the mtc ones, which literally are. They're that christmas tree reticle that gets wider at the bottom and it's just full of dots, and. But it's great if you know the wind that's happening and you can see the grass moving. Yeah, it gives you an aim, point, doesn't?
Speaker 3:it. Yeah, that, and for me it works because an object you look down range and you you've been. By how many different objects in your life? You've walked by a stop sign, you've walked by a fire hydrant, you've walked by stumps and trees and for the most part you know how thick a tree is in any given forest. They're pretty much uniformed. Yeah, and so you can. If you've walked through that forest before and you've walked that forest your whole life, you've walked that hillside, you know that that rock is a certain size. And if I look through that scope and I'm like, okay, that rock is 24 inches across and I'm 100 yards out and I looked at scope and there's debris all over. It could be dust inside the lens, I'm happy because I'm like, oh, between that dust mark and that dust mark, that's how big that rock is. So I know where I'm shooting. It just gives me a point of reference.
Speaker 2:That's my range finder yeah, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, and I think I think I do that with fence posts. You, you work out exactly how far a fence post is, or something like that, and you go well, it's seven fence posts down there, that's 70 yards done exactly. And people are like how do you know that? And it's like well, get your range finder. Yeah, it's about 73 yards and it's just. It's just something you know because that's your, you shoot that land and all the rest of it it's a point of reference.
Speaker 3:You've been there, you've gone up and down and it works. Because if, if you take all the knowledge you've used in this world, you've walked by objects, you know the certain height of certain things, the certain thickness of objects, how tall a fence post is, how, what's the average span between post to post exactly and what the gap is between two pieces of barbed wire on a three wire barbed wire fence.
Speaker 3:You're like, okay, that's a little over a meter high. I know the spacing is going to be about a a quarter meter between each one yeah, yeah, yeah, totally one third of a meter. We can just set this up. I'm like okay, I know how big this animal is, I know what the distance is, I know what my range is. You can put all the data in without having to do much yeah, you find.
Speaker 2:I find that I think a lot of people now uh well, we've seen it more and more with the digital scopes and the range finders I think a lot of people are relying on, on tech and and sometimes you can be out, and especially when you well, if you're out stalking or something like that, tech doesn't always work. Cold weather batteries you're like I found with my like that tech doesn't always work. Cold weather batteries you're like I've found with my thermal scope battery power on a cold night. It disappears and it's gone and you're trying to find another battery. But where's that battery been? Has it been an outside pocket? Has it been an inside pocket? Is it going to have any charge? And again, when you lose it, all you have to and and say you come into the morning, you've got your day scope, you know exactly.
Speaker 3:I look down that and I pull the trigger and bang it falls over yeah, there's nothing funnier than trying to go on a hunt with people that say I got thermal, I got night vision, all right, cool, turn it on on a nice humid day when that air is thick, that's it. They're like everything's red. Yeah, congratulations, it's reading the air. Air is thick and hot, yeah, or it's misting outside and you're turning on your night vision and your ir light is reading every bit of reflective water droplets in the air yeah, and that's it.
Speaker 2:You are you, just you cannot hunt. Nope, they. They say that the new thermals have got better. And they are. They do well, I've seen it. They do actually cut through some of that quite well, because I remember the old. I've got a very old thermal, um, sort of monocular, just handheld, and again, as you say, as soon as you get a bit of rain and everything gets the same temperature gradient on it, you're just looking at a great, great picture. You don't see anything. But I think the new software and whatever they've done, it seems to be able to pick its way through it a little bit better.
Speaker 3:I'm hoping to find out.
Speaker 2:Well, you will do. You will do. If you're going to be playing with those new pulsars, you're certainly going to find out. So yeah, that'll be. That'll be exciting to see, See what comes of that. I think that kind of brings us to a really nice conclusion. So thank you ever so much. It's been absolutely fantastic to get you on and, yeah, really good.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. If you ever get bored and have an extra free time, give me a call, I'll jump back on and play, no problem at all thank you very much for listening.
Speaker 2:Hopefully you enjoyed that as much as I enjoyed recording it with ton, and yeah, we'll hopefully get some more guests like that in the near future. Just one thing I thought I'd mention is that we've started doing a little bit of a review channel and we've stuck that on to our YouTube channel, the outdoor gibbon. Pop along, have a look. I think our first video so far has been a bit of a review on some Hakeelah boots, but there's lots of other exciting things to come. We picked up a few more items that we'll be reviewing at the stalking show, and we've been in talks with a few other companies as well.
Speaker 2:The main idea was to always just review equipment that I actually use so that people can make their own judgments from it. I'm not here to try and sell anything. It's just basically giving you somebody that tests it. In the north east of scotland, where it it's weather can be four seasons in one day. If it works for me up here, it should work for anybody else. That that was the main plan with my reviews. You'll also be able to find on there the video of the podcast that we've just done with ton jones, and hopefully you can enjoy watching it as well as listening to it. Remember to subscribe and also tell anybody else about this podcast, so the more people know about it and the more people can listen. Thanks very much, and we'll see you on the next one.