The Outdoor Gibbon
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The Outdoor Gibbon
18. PDS1 Explained with it's creator Peter Jones
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Ever felt that deer stalking qualifications were inaccessible due to time constraints or location? You're not alone. This eye-opening conversation with Peter Jones—founder of County Deer Stalking, the Capriolus Club, and creator of the revolutionary PDS certification system—reveals how field sports education is evolving to meet modern needs.
After ten years in the Metropolitan Police specializing in firearms legislation, Peter established businesses that bridge the gap between urban professionals and countryside pursuits. His innovative approach recognizes a fundamental challenge: many city dwellers love field sports but lack the rural connections traditionally needed to participate. Through County Deer Stalking and the Capriolus Club, he's created pathways for these enthusiasts to access quality stalking experiences while building a community around what's typically a solitary pursuit.
The conversation centers on the Proficient Deer Stalker (PDS) qualification system—a Lantra-approved alternative to traditional certifications that leverages e-learning technology. While respecting the long-established DSC route, Peter explains how PDS allows busy professionals to study at their own pace rather than committing to multi-day residential courses. The newly launched PDS-2 requires demonstrating competence twice in the field, striking what he considers an ideal balance between thoroughness and accessibility.
Perhaps most fascinating is the shifting motivation behind hunting participation. Peter notes a significant increase in people seeking to harvest their own sustainable wild meat as an ethical alternative to intensively farmed options. This trend completes a meaningful circle: urbanites reconnecting with food sources, learning essential skills, and bringing clean protein directly to their family tables.
Whether you're a seasoned stalker or curious about getting started, this discussion offers valuable insights into how education in field sports is adapting to contemporary lifestyles while maintaining rigorous standards and sustainability principles. Search "PDS-1" online to learn more about this qualification pathway.
He's created a new deerstalking qualification called the PDS1 and PDS2 very similar to the DSC1 and DSC2. His course is approved by Lantra https://www.lantra.co.uk/
Link to the sites discussed in the pod cast
https://www.countydeerstalking.co.uk/go-stalking
https://www.capreolusclub.co.uk/
The quote you will hear in the podcast is by Martin Luther King, Jr., “the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.”
Hello and welcome to the Outdoor Given, episode 18. Interview with Peter Jones, the creator of the PDS-1. So back at the beginning of these podcasts I talked about the DSC-1 and DSC-2, the DS Stalking Certificate Scheme, level 1 and Level 2. Now they were created back in the day by the British Deer Society. The actual DSC1 was first recorded and created in 1997, but the first candidate to actually pass it was in 1998. Candidate to actually pass it was in 1998, so 26 years ago we have used this standard for giving recognition for people to say that they are trained hunters, whether you've got your level one or you've taken to the next standard, next level, which is level two. So peter j Jones has created the PDS1, which is very similar course content to the DSC1 and the DSC2. But he has gone down a different route for accreditation. So it's actually a Lantra approved course which is now starting to be recognized by, for example, the Forestry Commission in certain places and it's slightly different spin on on how to present it. It's more done via the e-learning platforms. But anyway, uh, enjoy the podcast and if there's any feedback or anything like that at the end of it, please feel free to either message it through or leave a comment. Thanks very much.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the Outdoor Gibbon podcast. Today we are joined by Peter Jones. He is the founder of the Capriolus Club County Deer Stalking and the Shooting and Hunting Academy. Hello, peter.
Speaker 3:Morning Peter. It's good to be on Nice to be speaking with you.
Speaker 2:Fantastic. Thank you very much, very much so before. Well, we'll get started basically, and my first question to any guest that comes on the podcast is how did you get involved in shooting sports?
Speaker 3:kicking straight off with the big one there, peter, aren't you so?
Speaker 2:pretty much. Well, it's the. It's the one.
Speaker 3:Everybody wants to know is how you got kind of involved in in any of it, really yeah yeah, do you know it's, um, it's probably relatively underwhelming and very typical, I imagine, of you know, most of your guys that get into deer stalking, get into shooting sports. I grew up in the countryside down towards, uh, a well-known deer area called ashdown forest, which is down towards east sussex and kent borders that's that direction and, uh, overwhelming numbers of fallow deer down there. And I grew up on a, on a farm. We weren't farming it but we were essentially sort of surrounded by farmland and, um, you know, like a lot of uh, kids that up in the countryside, how do you occupy your time? And I think you know when my parents eventually bought me an air rifle, I don't think they saw me out of camouflage. For the first summer, you know, I was in and out of the woods for long hours, just you know, hunting rabbits and pigeons and that type of thing. And then it kind of evolved from there, peter, really, after I finished my degree, I joined the police.
Speaker 3:So I was in the Metropolitan Police for 10 years and really I suppose, specialised. My speciality was firearms legislation. Okay, I was there for 10 years. So I, whilst I was doing that, I kind of maintained my love of field sports and did it as a hobby whilst I was a police officer. And then, um, when I left the police which was, goodness me, that was a while ago now. I'd like to think it's quite recent, but it was back in 2007, believe it or not right, really wow yeah see, we're talking about 15 years ago.
Speaker 3:I thought, well, you know, let, let, let's set this field sports, my love of field sports. I'll set it up full time. And it was then really that I started setting up um county. Deerstalking was the first one to set up.
Speaker 2:Okay, so what does County Deerstalking? What's that? Explain what that's about.
Speaker 3:Well, initially I set up County Deerstalking to go along as a sort of a sideline to other work and it quickly became apparent that it was going to become a full-time job for me and all I was doing essentially is I set up a website, I'm starting to offer um outings, deer stalking, and okay, I think, perhaps because my proximity to London, I found that I was getting a lot of, uh, a lot of appetite actually from, you know, city workers, city residents. Those are the guys and girls that couldn't necessarily access deer stalking in the same way as people who live in the country. So it did afford them that that link to something that they they love to be able to do but, you know, couldn't otherwise access.
Speaker 2:So, um, I I found that I got busier and busier pretty quickly oh, fantastic, yeah, because it's one of those things I think everybody wants to do deer stalking but it's always the thing, especially especially down south. It's the it's having access to the land and knowing who to talk to, and things like that. So, yeah, obviously it was a niche market at that point for you, so it must have worked well well, you know it.
Speaker 3:it's easy, isn't it? If you live in the country, you can, you know you're going to meet farmers in the local pub or be able to knock on your neighbor's door and something like that, and usually a lease or something will eventually transpire. But what I quickly realized is there's an awful lot of people, a lot of guys and girls, in the city, who live in the city, got their jobs and their families and their lives in busy city centres, who you know, who can't access it, but nonetheless they love their field sports. And I think you know, as country people we have a duty, I think, to reach out to people in the towns and cities to be able to offer them that ability to be able to go and pursue something that we enjoy. It shouldn't just be the preserve of country people to be able to do and pursue something that we enjoy. It shouldn't just be the preserve of country people to be able to do cut and field sports, should it?
Speaker 2:no, absolutely, and I suppose I suppose being down in in sussex and things like that, you are literally a stone's throw away. So it's, it's no, it's not. It's not difficult for uh somebody just to jump on the train even and ride out you did, because the train links down there are pretty good. It's a bit different for me up in Aberdeenshire inviting somebody from London. It's a bit of a mission to come up here for a for a weekend kind of uh deer stalking.
Speaker 3:Yeah you're quite right and you know, my first ground was just straight down the M3 down into Hampshire and I sometimes found that perhaps, you know, in the summer for road buck season, a guy might finish his work in the evening and still be on the train and or on the motorway down to hampshire and, uh, still be able to put a few hours in deer stalking after work.
Speaker 3:So it does, it does.
Speaker 3:It's remarkably accessible if you can get hold of that, and and I think that often comes as a surprise to people who think that perhaps they're going to have to travel to scotland to access good quality deer stalking, when in actual fact the sheer quantity and and diversity of deer species that you get, you know, even in the home counties is, is extraordinary.
Speaker 3:And um, and I think as well, for a lot of guys that have perhaps come from europe or the continent or Scandinavia or wherever it was, who have perhaps got jobs with the big banks in, in, in in the city, are have it in their blood, you know, hunting and shooting in their blood, and so they really latched onto this and thought, well, this is fabulous because I can work for my big bank or or my big insurance company or my law former lawyers or whatever it is and still be able to access the, the field sports that I grew up with.
Speaker 3:And so it's um, you know it's a wonderful thing and and I'm ranting and getting on my soapbox here a little bit, but I think, peter, it's what what's wonderful as well and is, is that, you know, we got the ability as well to be able to get that message of you know, of what we do, out to city workers, because that's and sorry city residents, because that's a really important message to get across as well I think when we spoke on the phone it was the the disconnect with, with the city folk and the countryside folk has become.
Speaker 2:Well, it's actually become huge, it's massive, as you say. You get your, your scandinavians and your europeans. That it's ingrained, it's, it's still part of the culture. But I think for the, for the uk it's, it's kind of been so diluted. We don't have that same connection anymore well, I?
Speaker 3:I think you're absolutely right and I think it would be to our detriments if we thought of the process as a sort of an us and them type idea. You know, city picker against field sports and country people love them because I'm afraid to say that the demographics and the populations of both we're on a losing wicket, aren't we?
Speaker 2:if we, if we adopt that sort of attitude, we are completely, but again it goes just as much that people in the countryside are completely disconnected from field sports yeah, well, it can be the case, peter, for sure so obviously that that that brings up that's your first. That was the county deer stalking. What was your? Your next sort of?
Speaker 3:uh, part of that was it the Capriolus club yeah, well, you know, what's been really good and really uh, rewarding is the fact that as a business, things have really sort of grown very organically. You know some businesses you have to work very hard at and you'd really have to, um, you know, uh, plug away at in order to get the, to be able to market yourself, to be able to get the business. But I found that things evolved very organically and very naturally because clients that were coming to me to go deer stalking in the home counties and locally, I found, were asking me more and more for advice on where they should go in the Highlands or how could they access different species, or what if they want to do Shamwa, or what if they want to do Driven Boar. Or they may say to me well, look, I've got this problem with my firearms license. I need some help with that and, of course, with the police background as well, I had a good understanding of firearms licensing and that type of thing as well.
Speaker 3:So I found that I was giving away more and more advice to these guys who needed more and more of a kind of a sort of a more of a high touch service and more of a sort of a better service, and so I was.
Speaker 3:I was, I was very pleased to be able to then set up capriotas club as a kind of the official members club of county deer stalking. Through that we could then take those people that were interested in, you know, facilitating access to those types of trips and events and and advice and support and involve them in a club. And, and peter, and the other reason I think for it is that you and I will know that deer stalking, unlike, perhaps you know, some wing shooting and other field sports, is actually quite a solitary pursuit. It is, yeah, and and what was an absolute delight was be able to introduce these guys to one another and develop a sort of camaraderie and a kind of a social group from what is otherwise a very insular, very, you know, very, very sort of unsociable, because obviously scandinavia it's all driven game and and it's kind of taken on the same way as as a day on the on bird shooting.
Speaker 2:So they all meet up in the morning, they'll all have a chat, have have breakfast before they go out to their stands and it is that seems to be a very social way of doing it, whereas obviously, as you say, the deer stalking community for the uk it is you. You get your rifle, you go out, potentially take your dog with you, but you go for hours just searching for your, your target species well, it might.
Speaker 3:It might be personality tags, and some people don't want a mixture. Lots of other other people do, they, and and that may be the reason why they choose, you know, deer stalk, stalking as their chosen field sport, so I'm very aware of that and that may be the case for some people, but I think you're undoubtedly right. I think the very nature of deer stalking in the UK tends to require that that person does it in a solitary way, rather way, rather than, as you say, on the continent, whereby it's a much more sociable pastime no, I, I find it.
Speaker 2:I think it's always more fun when you actually got somebody out with you, because there's that sort of you get to have that bit of connection with them. And especially if you're taking somebody out stalking, it's always the the look on their face when, when you may have taken a beast or an animal, at the end of it and it's, it's the sheer pleasure and actually getting some feedback off them always makes the day so much better doesn't it?
Speaker 3:just yeah, you know it is an absolute, it's a. It's an absolute. I've got to say that it's a absolute pleasure and a privilege to be able to take people out and to you know, show them a little bit of you know what I love on the countryside and you know, and our them a little bit of you know what I love on the countryside and you know, and our profound love for the species that we hunt, and that's, I think, is an important point to get across. This is not about just killing. This is about engaging with the countryside and engaging with a species which is, so you, in many people's minds, so kind of noble as a quarry, I suppose yeah, no, I always like to sort of say that the actual pulling of the trigger is it is a very is a very clinical moment.
Speaker 2:There's nothing, anybody can do that realistically. Anybody can pull the trigger and and your animal will fall down. It's the lead up to it and the work you have to do afterwards. That's that's the bit that requires the most sort of skill, knowledge and an understanding and sympathy to the actual environment that you're in you're.
Speaker 3:You're quite right and you know there's no doubt that. You know, if your interest in deer stalking is just the ability to kill and pull the trigger, then you're in for a disappointment, aren't you? Because you and I know you don't always go and get something, and that actually represents just a few seconds of the actual outing and, um, you know that that's not enough. It's got to be the, the, the love of the countryside, the love of the species, and, uh, and that's undoubtedly the, you know, got to be the driving feature.
Speaker 3:But picture, I think actually you know what pops into my mind on that is, um, another trend which we're seeing and and have seen, I suppose, over the last few years, and that has been increasingly, um, people picking up the phone and saying, look, I want to, I'm getting a bit, I suppose I'm turning away, or I'm aware of the environmental pressures of intensively farmed meat, um, and the green agenda is something that increasingly appeals, and so what I find is that increasingly, people picking up the phone and saying, look, I'm very interested in sourcing my own wild, sustainable meat, yeah, and, and that has surprised me quite how fast that trend has has grown, and I say a trend, I hope it's not a passing fad.
Speaker 3:I don't think it is, say, a trend. I hope it's a. It's not a a passing fad. I don't think it is. I think it is very much the mindset. And that whole sustainable agenda um of, and that green agenda and that um you know agenda which moves towards sort of biodiversity and sustainability and sourcing wild meat is, is really doing us deerstalkers a huge service because it's encouraging these people to come out and see that as the primary objective of what they're doing no, absolutely.
Speaker 2:The only bit that still bugs me is, though, is that we have lots of interesting people coming out to do it. However, we've still got game dealers that will give minimal, minimal payments for for deer, and then anything they do get, they're just shipping it out of this country. It's not.
Speaker 3:It doesn't get to the to the uk food chain I think your experience and I think the experience of a lot of stalking outfits is quite different to ours. They're actually interestingly um and I have found this because we will I would say probably, and this may be down to the fact that the majority of our species tend to be the smaller species, unlike you. Majority, I'd say probably 80 of our clients that come stalking this will take away their own shop venison, so I don't actually have to engage with the game handling establishments. I'm sure they're wonderful people, but the times that I actually have to step through the front door of an AGHE is once in a blue moon, no that's good.
Speaker 3:So effectively it goes straight from the field to the consumer and it is then it is locally sourced and consumed by the person that has shot the animal. And I think that that really completes the circle for us, because very often you'll get a beginner or someone who wants to get out shooting and within a few weeks they've learned what to do, they've gone out with a guide, they've shot an animal and they're serving it up to their wives and families and friends at home and, and, and. For me that's a massive thrill, and I know it's an enormous thrill for them as well, because goodness knows how many photos I've got of uh, of dinner plates, of uh, of the venison being served up.
Speaker 2:So no, that's fantastic. Yeah, as I say it's. It's easy enough with a smaller deer species, but yeah, a big red. Nobody really wants to try and fill the back of their small car with one Well, even a pickup. It fills the back of a pickup just one red deer.
Speaker 3:Well, I think. And then you've got the problem of when you get it home, haven't you? Because you know a lot of the clients that we deal with if they've got a garden, I be surprised because you know you've got people who live in flats in the towns and cities and they need a kitchen that's big enough to be able to to break down a carcass, and you're certainly not going to be able to do that with the red absolutely.
Speaker 2:It reminds me we were visiting family down in in surrey and I I got invited out for a fallow stalk. So, coming back that night, when was it it was around about? Uh, it was august time, it was boiling hot. There's a fallow carcass in the back of my motor on a fairly busy residential area in in surrey, just outside red hill, and uh, and there's me butchering it down the side of the house it's uh.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it takes people a bit by surprise when they see it doesn't it absolutely, but it had to be done.
Speaker 2:I couldn't hang it for my usual amount of time, but it was, uh, it was all broken down and uh, yeah it's, it is one of those things.
Speaker 3:But yeah, everybody had, everybody had a load of venison out of it well, and I think you know, as you get more, more mature in the sport, you you do question yourself am I going to squeeze the trigger here? Or you know, because you realize the the enormity of the task of uh, of getting the carcass back and then breaking it down at home sometimes. So I think that that's a real consideration for people. But we, we we certainly try to, you know, as a, as a club and as a provider of deer stalking outings, we, we're always trying to find ways of ensuring that it, that that venison gets straight back to the end consumer because, as I say, that's that's really increasingly for our clients what the whole thing is about no, absolutely, and it seems to be a growing market.
Speaker 2:There's a lot more people actually more concerned about where their meat come from, be it, be it venison, be it game birds and things like that, and it's great to see. It's just obviously. We just need to get the momentum growing, I think, a bit more and get it on more people's plates at the end of the day and and and you know what.
Speaker 3:Actually, when you actually talk to people about it, it's an easy conversion, isn't it? If you can get your foot in the door and actually have a conversation with another meat eater, or even a vegetarian, very often, when you actually are able to tell them that what you're about is sourcing wild, sustainable, free range, non-intensively farmed meat well, I mean, anyone that eats meat first of all, can certainly not take the high moral ground when it comes to hunting. We've got we firmly claim the high moral ground there, and I think you know, once you explain that to people, they're quick to come on board no, no, yes, and it that seems to be the way.
Speaker 2:So obviously the, the capriolus club, it, um, it covers organizing hunts, things like that. But was it? I was looking on there and you, you organize butchery demonstrations and and basically training people how to do things like that. Or does that come on to the, the shooting and hunting academy?
Speaker 3:well, the capriolus club is really simple. Perhaps I can help your listeners understand how it works. And you know a typical client. Yes, so the typical client might come to us and we do pick up an enormous amount of beginners or those perhaps coming who are living in the UK, been hunting abroad and want to make that transition to understanding what the requirements are of hunting in the UK. But almost invariablyably we've got someone that comes to us initially who requires some type of of of training, and initially we used to or offer a bit of training in the field. But increasingly we found that it was more fair to the individual and to the deer themselves that that person who was pulling the trigger was suitably empowered to understand what they were doing, what species they're taking, where their shot placement should be, what the shot reaction would be, what the legislation was, et cetera, and that we found that the more we empowered people in the process, the more they enjoyed it and the better they were at it. So we we started running um, a course called the proficient deer stalker, uh, level one um, which gave a lot of the information that they would require to be able to go out shooting and after, I suppose probably about five, five to ten years, probably a decade, of running that. A few years ago we had that accredited um by and your listeners will be completely aware of lantra. It's a off-qual, off-qual, regulated, probably the biggest land-based awarding body in the uk yeah, um, and they accredited our proficient deerstalker level one, and so what we do now, coming back to your question, is our typical candidate that comes to us tends to do that proficient deerstalker level one as a first point of call um and as part of the practical, we'll go out and get some experience of of of shoot checking, that they can shoot straight and and that they know what they're doing, dispatching a deer and then, having got that experience in the field um, of having passed a lantra approved course, they are then welcome to join the capriolus club. Okay, um, so that's that's kind of the transition that that they make.
Speaker 3:And the capriolus club you're quite right, it offers trips, events. We probably put on an event every few weeks, so that might be everything from I don't know. I mean I've got the rover up coming up soon so we'll get a group of rifles on that. It might be seeker deer down in dorset. It might be a trip up to the highlands of scotland for reds, we'll take a lodge as a group of guys, um, we're doing chamois, and in the high alps we've got driven ball. On the continent we've got trips to norway for elk and capicalli and you know, and all of these things going on in a typical year. So we've got all of that.
Speaker 3:And of course also we find that in terms of their licensing because rather than just coming out and using an estate rifle, invariably they'll want to get their own firearms license, absolutely yeah. And having got that qualification, that Lantra-approved qualification, well, that demonstrates competence as far as the police are concerned. Qualification, well that's, you know that that that shows that demonstrates competence as far as the police are concerned. So that's, that's really important. And then they can make that transition into doing all the events and trips. But to assist them with that firearms application, we are able to, I suppose, give them the guidance and the police do like to see that a lot of these guys who live in towns and cities or or elsewhere, they've got the, the police have got the confidence of understanding that the firearms applicant has got a, a good base club, a mentoring, um, and and somewhere where they can use that firearm, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:So your yeah, your capriolus club is is similar to the idea of like the st hubert's um hunting club, but it definitely sounds like it's uh, it's more welcoming and uh and probably slightly easier to get into well, I'm sure the st hubert's club are very lovely people and I'm sure they're very welcoming, so I would.
Speaker 3:So I wouldn't. I wouldn't dream of saying anything to the contrary. But you, I haven't got a lot of experience at St Hubert's. I think a couple of our members actually have joined from there. So that's great and I wish them well, because these types of clubs are a wonderful platform from which people can explore and enhance their access to field sports.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely, absolutely. So. The PDS-1, let's move on to that. As you've mentioned it there. Obviously, most people that would have listened will be traditionally knowledgeable of DSC-1 and DSC-2. Where does the PDS-1 sit in that, and why was it? Well, you've obviously explained why it was created, but where do you think it's going to go to?
Speaker 3:well, look, let's make one thing absolutely clear, peter, you know the dsc1, the dmq route is an excellent qualification. It's been running for a long time. I've got the highest admiration for it. Um, I've done it myself. I'm an approved witness for deer management qualifications. I've gone all that route. I've nothing but the greatest admiration for it. So I would like to point that out straight away.
Speaker 3:But we owe it, I think, to the consumer and to people wanting to get into deer stalking to be able to offer them options.
Speaker 3:It's always in the interests of the consumer that one individual or one party does not have a monopoly on something. So I think what we have done there with that proficient deerstalker, with the Lantricles, is we've simply offered people an alternative and for a lot of people that alternative is very attractive and we're seeing. It's very attractive because the theory elements of the proficient deer stalker is achieved through the shooting and hunting academy which you can get, find online and that's an e-learning platform. Rather than having to and this will be very relevant for people in Scotland rather than having perhaps to travel many hours to an assessment centre, having to spend two hours in a sorry, a couple of nights in a bed and breakfast or something like that and all the related expense just to be able to look at slides and things that are shown on an overhead projector. I would think you may have moved on, but that's certainly my experience yeah, you don't need to.
Speaker 3:these days, you do not need to travel to an assessment center to, to to be able to see this. You can do this much more efficiently and effectively via an e-learning platform which, incidentally as well, gives brilliant continuity of delivery. So you can be sure that, whether you do the PDS1 theory in Aberdeenshire or whether you do it in Kent, you are going to get the same delivery of content, aren't you? Yes, and that's brilliant. And we find that you can imagine that a lot of our clients have led very busy working lives. They've got families, they've got childcare commitments, they've got all the rest.
Speaker 3:They cannot pick up and go to an assessment center for two or three days to do a DSC1. But they can spend a few hours every evening during the week on the train, on the way into work or after work at home, working their way methodically through a series of modules, classes and exams that give them the same result. Ok, yeah, yeah, they've got a syllabus there which is broadly equivalent to the DSC one. We know what we need to be able to do to be, or we know what we need to know in order to become a deer stalker. So the content and the syllabus is there and it is much the same in the proficient deer stalker as it is in the deer stalking certificate yeah, no, I, yeah, I did look through.
Speaker 2:There seems to be you do cover a bit more on firearms legislation and everything like that, which I don't think the dsc one kind of touches. It may have changed slightly since I did it, but it didn't seem to cover as much of yeah, there's a few differences.
Speaker 3:There's a little bit more practical instruction, um showing people how it might be best to handle a firearm, how it might be best to get a safe and an accurate shot. That that's all there. We've also got um on the proficient deerstalker level one. We've got a um food hygiene course now as well, which you get as part of the pds1. So having completed the pds1, you're then offered to do a large game meat hygiene course, okay, which we and we're engaged with the food standards agency on that. So that's a good, legitimate, recognized course and interestingly, the dsc1 no longer provides that no, that was that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it used to be part of it, and then it's now been taken away, I think, hasn't it?
Speaker 3:yeah, was added to the. I think they've added it to the dsc2, so, um, so you know the pds1, I think for those reasons. So I mean just to finish off how that pds1 works. So you, having done the, the the theory element, having done your food hygiene course, I know your listeners will be screaming out, but you can't learn how to shoot a rifle online. And, of course, what we've had there is we have a series of approved verifiers from everywhere, from the north of Scotland to Devon and Cornwall to Kent, and these approved verifiers are you can access an approved verifier near you who you can go and visit, and then they will sign off on the demonstration of safety and and proficiency in terms of your accuracy when it comes to shooting so that.
Speaker 2:That's. That's basically the shooting test that you had in your dsc1 exactly that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it requires you know a couple of different positions, as it would with the dsc route. It requires, and that you handle the weapon safely, and so forth. So you can see that, in terms of accessibility, the PDS-1 is fabulous and if you are a person who perhaps is struggling to get you an assessment centre, is struggling to get out into the countryside or simply struggling to find time, then it does facilitate that. And, as again, you know, we've got a duty, haven't we, to encourage people to what we do, to deer stalking. We want to invite people to come in. So, being able to offer people a viable alternative to the dsu one, it's not, if the dsu one's right for you, it's right for you, fabulous, you're going to end up with a good qualification. But all we are doing is offering a viable alternative to people in the form of a, of a landshare accredited calls where they can go out and and long.
Speaker 2:Pretty much the same thing I agree it sounds like it's um. It's certainly moving, especially that the part where you can do it, the e-learning. I think dse1 tried to bring that in during the covid but it's kind of that's disappeared again now. But to have an e-learning especially when you talk about people who struggle with time, and time is it's the only thing you can't create more of at the end of the day. That and land, um it's. It's one of those things that people can actually do in their own time and get sorted out. I remember doing my one of my bow hunting qualifications and that was a similar thing. It was an e-learning. You went through it as you needed to and you worked your way through the course and then you had to do exactly the same. You have to go to an approved center to to demonstrate the practical side of things. So obviously, with the pds1, is there a pds2 is? Is there, do you?
Speaker 3:know he's a you. You've walked straight into that one because because it would you believe it? Um, we launched it yesterday. So the PDS2, like the PDS1, used to be run in the field Yep, but so we've been following the success of the PDS1 and seeing how well it has worked and been able to be delivered online.
Speaker 3:We've now, after many, many months of kind of work, we we've finally launched the pds2 and that is available now on the shooting and hunting academy.
Speaker 3:So so people who have done their pds1 can now move on to a higher level, I suppose, of of learning and, and what we wanted to do, peter, is make sure that this PDS2 really kind of represented that we'd like to say that the gold standard of deer stalking qualifications, because what we have done is we have introduced to our level a further online learning via the platform so you can access further e-learning and advice on things like land assessment, risk assessment, deer management plans.
Speaker 3:We've got more on deer ecology, understanding aging deer in the field, aging post-mortem by teeth.
Speaker 3:We've got further information on firearms and optics, like understanding parallax and all that type of thing.
Speaker 3:So it's it's a really good, comprehensive course that we're adding enormous amount of value to pds2 candidates and what they do, having completed I think it is 70 multiple choice questions with a pass mark of 80%, so it's quite stringent. Once they have passed that theory element, they are then invited to download a logbook and through that logbook they then present that to an approved verifier in their area who then requires that they complete a series of performance criteria in the field which the approved verifier signs off and witnesses in the field. And, interestingly, we feel that it's important that the candidates should demonstrate their proficiency in the field on at least two occasions. So to complete so just to be clear, to complete that PDS2, you will have had to have done an e-learning theory course, a further course, passed multiple choice exams throughout the course that was with an 80% pass mark and you will have had to have demonstrated your competence at dispatching, culling and extracting and hygienically storing deer on at least two occasions to complete the qualification.
Speaker 2:That's really good because obviously there, yeah, there were some some major changes with the, the dmq version. It used to be three stalks in the field and then suddenly it was reduced to oh yeah, you can do it all in one. Well, I've always thought you can kind of get lucky in one, but if you've, if you've got at least you've got to have at least multiple chances, because if, if, if, all the planets align and everything goes perfectly and you do it once happy days. But as we all know, when you shoot enough deer, things go wrong and it's not always perfect. And if you manage to pull it off for that one qualification, you've ticked the box. But the next time you go out it all goes wrong. You could get yourself in a whole lot of mess at the end of the day I.
Speaker 3:I I think you're entirely right in truth, and I was surprised, you know, I, my dsc2 was, uh, required at three, three culls. In fact I think it took me 10 efforts to get it. It ended up being a very expensive process. So I was always a little bit, I suppose. I personally felt three was perhaps too much, but one was too little. So, in actual fact, that's why we have arrived at demonstrating it twice, because I think that provides that happy medium whereby, as you say, you know, you're not just going to go out once you get lucky, you've got to demonstrate it and repeat it on a second occasion. But requiring people to do it three times, we felt well, you know they've shown it twice. Now you know that that should be sufficient. So I hope we've reached a really good balance there with that PDS2. And I think you know, as I say, dsc2, dsc1, very good.
Speaker 2:I don't want to be overly critical of that, but I think we have heard back a lot from our approved verifiers and professionals in the industry who felt that dropping it to one ICR, one independent color record, was perhaps um a step further than they might have gone I just wonder whether it was it was more to just to get get the numbers up at the end of the day, because it seemed as though that level two was one of those things that just people got it but not many people did it because of, obviously, the numbers required and whether or not it was a movement just to try and get things up.
Speaker 3:But I do know accredited witnesses that have been struggling and saying well, failing people because at the end of the day they're like well, you can't pass because it's wrong and that's the biggest problem well, I think there has been quite a lot of pushback, you're right, from, you know, from the approved witnesses and um, you know, and, and, and and, a fair number in truth, are, are, are now acting as approved verifiers for, for, for the, for the lantra calls, for the, for the pds route, um, but you know, I, I would want to be very clear, because it's all very easy to be critical of you know, of a training provider and think we could do things better. And I want to be very clear that you know DMQ have done a terrific job over the years of ensuring that we've got good, high standards of deer management in this country. You know DMQ have been responsible for that for, you know, several decades now, haven't they? And, uh, you know I, I would generally I'd sort of, you know, take my hat off to them, say you know that they've done a terrific job in in the industry. And I don't, and it's very easy to to to criticize and think we could have done it better.
Speaker 3:But you know there is a whole wealth of legislation there's, there's information that is supplied, uh, via defra, via food standards agency, and so you can imagine as a training provider we are, we have an awful lot of information coming across our desks and we have to make some good decisions, I think, of what our course involves, based on a lot of information, and whilst we are very mindful and we do have an ear open to what people on the ground are saying, we also have to be mindful of what the government departments and bigger agencies are also telling us. So I would say that you know DMQ have come to a position where they feel comfortable and you know and an awful lot of people will quite rightly support them in that, and I hope that a lot of people will also support us and understand that. You know that proficient deerstalker level one has been instituted after an awful lot of input from people on the ground and from other agencies as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so just going well. The million dollar question is how is your uptake on the course? Are you getting good feedback from it? Are you getting kickback from the traditional DSC1 people? Where do you think you're standing at the moment in terms of going forward?
Speaker 3:In truth, we're on a very fast-hopping trajectory. Okay, I think it works very well for us because we have County Deerstalking, because we've got our YouTube channel, because we've got Cabaret's Club, because we've got Cabrera's Club, we've got the Shooting a Huntsman. We have a very big platform from which we are, you know, gaining an awful lot of traction. Talking into, into google is going to find one of our platforms, and so we have a very, uh, wide audience. I think we reach, you know, over a thousand people every day. Okay, right, yeah, so it's a vast platform and you can imagine a good slice of those people are beginners. So the trajectory is very good and and it has overall, you know, I think, think, as with anything that is new, there are always the naysayers, there are always the dare I say, I use the word trolls, but you know, and there's always people who are going to poo-poo what you're doing because they like the status quo. But you know, as an industry, you know, I think you know this previous one I think it's the future.
Speaker 3:E-learning is going to be the future, whether we like it or not, the age of sitting in classrooms doing courses. It's going to go. That's damn easy. And because we have proper external accreditation, not just from Lantra but from UK Rural Skills as well. You know we've gone to a huge amount of effort to jump through the hoops that are required to get that accreditation and, as I would reiterate that you know, lantra themselves are off-qual regulated. You know this is a this is a big step to take and because we've got all of that, I think overall, when people do dig a little bit deeper and they actually look at the course and the content and and what is delivered, um, you know they're then they're nothing other than positive about it and that that comes across from, you know, the professionals, it comes across from numerous police forces and it comes across from the people taking the course as well that's fantastic.
Speaker 2:Obviously it gives a bit of variety. I suppose somebody gets to choose which which method they go in, which course they take at the end of the day.
Speaker 3:So that's really good and at least it's growing and people are getting fully aware of it yeah, yeah, and, and you know, as I say, I wouldn't for one moment say don't do the DSC. No, I mean, do the DSC. It's fabulous, it's great. You might also want to consider the PDS read so it's. You know, it's as I've said numerous times throughout this podcast. You know, I don't want for one second to people think that I am trying to get rid of DMQ or trying to poo poo it. It's brilliant. They've done a great job for many, many years and I hope that they will continue as a alternative, viable option to the proficient disorder.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely, and that seems to be well, I think, people with choice. Now everybody uses the internet. It's one of those things. Again, you just you mentioned, you touched on the word that the trolls, or the keyboard warriors every man and his dog that sits on the internet will, that will tell you that we're all doing it wrong, and the ones of us that get out there and shoot, we just kind of smile and just you just have to carry on, don't you? At the end of the day.
Speaker 3:It does make me laugh sometimes, I must say. You know, I think probably because we do have quite a big exposure. You know, we're getting so many people, Well, invariably there's going to be a minority who want to say something negative and it probably makes me chuckle more than anything else really.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the world we live in.
Speaker 3:The heart, can we? We're always going to get it. When you, whenever you, whenever someone puts themselves out there, there, they're always going to get that little, that side of things, aren't they?
Speaker 2:unfortunately. Yes, so obviously that's where you are now with the three parts of the, the business at the end of the day plans for the future, anything exciting coming up or any any new ideas that you want to share world domination, peter world domination.
Speaker 3:That's what it's always about, is that?
Speaker 2:yeah, obviously you were. You had a stand at the stalking show and, um, how did you find that was? Was it? Was it popular? Was it busy? Were you getting lots of inquiries there?
Speaker 3:do you know, we were, we were absolutely delighted to be there and it was brilliant. We didn't do it in the first year, um, but what was brilliant was the ability to go along and actually kind of shake hands with people and meet people who are perhaps engaging with us online, meet them face to face, and we found, you know, in contrast to the talk of trolls and that type of thing, we found everyone was unbelievably friendly. The whole stalking show was an absolute credit to you know, a credit to the industry, because it was a very friendly atmosphere and I thought it was brilliant.
Speaker 3:And a few years ago you would have never got that many people under one roof. You'd have never got. You know, you'd never been able to fill a venue of that size, and I think that is, you know, that that's testament to the fact that we're in in an industry that is that is growing and developing well, they do say don't.
Speaker 2:I think, though, there was reports out that deer stalking has become one of the most it's sort of popular shooting sports that suddenly has taken taken over in the last few years, and it just seems to be growing and growing well, well, thankfully, I mean, that goes hand in hand with the highest deer population in the thousand years, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:yeah, well, you know, as I recently asked about this recently because it I have this, um, you know, this slight concern, of course, that there is a a pendulum effect of a high deer population invites lots of deer stalkers, invites lots of attention. Lots of deer start getting shot and the pendulum rapidly swings back the other way to a point whereby you've got an excess of deer stalkers and a and a and a not enough deer, yes, and I, and I think that unless it is carefully and sustainably dealt with and managed and people's expectations of what they can harvest from the natural environment are moderated, I think then potentially we could reach a problem. So you know I mean's we're talking about many years in the, into the future, I think and and and the reforestation of much of the uk, and and and you know, plans to increase more, you know, add more trees to the environment, etc. Etc. Go, go, kind of um would tend to support a high deer population.
Speaker 2:So there's some, there's some challenging variables there, I think, in the whole mix, which are going to be interesting yeah, I think we have to watch out for that because obviously we get a high deer population, because you get a lot of guys that their whole business is based around. It's a crude way of putting it, but it is trophy hunting. It's taking taking something with a piece of wood on its head at the end of the day and and they're not out to to do deer. They kind of do deer management but they don't want to go out and shoot lots of does and female specie deer, because there's no reason to shoot that and it doesn't bring in a high price. So their their main game is is is sales and revenue and of course that helps the deer population boom suddenly well, they've got a fraud, they've got a flawed business model, haven't they?
Speaker 3:I say those people that are, you know, if that, as a deer manager or as a deer stalker, that is your model for revenue creation, then it's flawed and it's unsustainable. It's not our model in the least. And I think that people commonly make the mistake with the Capital Realists Club because it tends to be a fairly high-end service. You know, the demographic tends to be a relatively good luck to them, a relatively sort of wealthy client base. The assumption is that these guys are only interested in, you know, in the trophy animals, and that couldn't be further from the truth. It you know, our guys are sensible, educated guys that are fundamentally interested in in harvesting non-intensively wild meat from the environment and the joy of being in the field, in the countryside and enjoying the actual hunt, and that is absolutely what they're all about.
Speaker 2:So that that's a refreshing, a breath of fresh air, because unfortunately you hear far too well, the press get hold of things and it is it's always about the trophy hunter that comes over, that wants to shoot the work, the medal class type of animal. At the end of the day, yeah, and and I think that's that's where we have to work hard to actually try and get it across that harvesting a harvesting an animal is is not just about you might get a souvenir out of it, but it's actually about putting food on the table well, that's right.
Speaker 3:And um, you know this, this trophy word is killing us, isn't it? And and I think you know, in truth, you know people who do take a, a large animal. I'm not saying that our clients never shoot one, there is a place to shoot them, but they are the minority and you know it's more a question, I would say, of of perhaps taking an individual who's gone out and who might have shot. You know a dozen animals and then you know they've all been sort of suitable cull animals to fit the plan. And then you know, one day he goes. I tell you what. I got one this big this time. You know, I actually got a big one, and he puts it on the wall and it's pride of place.
Speaker 3:But you know that is no different to the fisherman who goes out and catches 100 fish and one day goes. I got one this big today. You know exactly, he takes a very big fish, I mean, I I'm not sure. So perhaps that's about a poor analogy, but, uh, I think you know there's a place to take a big head every now and then, but you've got to recognize that it it's got to be, uh, an every now and then event, rather yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And I think well, we, the the obviously the big buzzwords at the moment is scottish government have a thing about rewilding everything, but they don't tell the general population that when she rewilded something up here, that's it all. The deer are gone. That normally gets fenced and shot. Nobody hears about that. Um, and it's one of those things that, yeah, um, how does we have to work so carefully? Because you mentioned some anything like that and and the press will turn it around, spin it on their head and put it out there that we're the bad guys yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a.
Speaker 3:There's a very poor lack of information in this country and I I'm starting to think we are more and more unique. The uk is more and more unique in terms of its press and their. The narrative and the agenda of what they are trying to achieve is so misguided. Uh it. Interestingly, you might note on the wall, peter, this. Your listeners won't be able to see this, but if you look down to the far right, I have a framed copy of the Daily Star Sunday of which I featured myself on Gun Cop is Sick Trophy Hunter. I think is the very impartial headline, but you know so I have been a victim. Impartial sort of headline, but you know so I have been a victim of that sort of media.
Speaker 2:So was that an Africa trip or something like that that got you in the press?
Speaker 3:No, I don't know. They sort of got on a whole load of stuff on there. It was absolutely ill-informed journalism and, you know, very misguided and uneducated and uninformed, but nonetheless that seems to be the narrative. They seem to be immune to the fact that probably what they're doing is doing a disservice to wildlife by peddling this narrative, because they're probably sort of damaging the self-serve, self-same animals that they're trying to sort of, you know, pretend to be trying to protect, because they have such a poor understanding of it. And of course, really the media needs it, needs proper informed debate. And whilst you get that in other countries around the world, in the continent, in the States, in Scandinavia, germany, these sort of places, the press seem ill inclined to do it here in the UK and it's a great shame.
Speaker 2:It does seem to be that way and there's no that there seems to be no halfway house. They don't want to hear about it, they don't want to produce anything. It's almost as if everybody has been as Disneyfied don't want to produce anything. It's almost as if everybody has been as disneyfied.
Speaker 3:The disney effect has has taken over and uh, and we're all the big, great white hunters kind of thing that are causing all the problems but I do think you know to to sort of finish that on a on a slightly more positive note, I do think that the tide might be changing slightly because, as I say, I have noticed demonstrably over the last few years the change in the type of client that is coming to us and the awareness of perhaps the the unsustainability of intensively farmed animal agriculture and the need for, you know, for biodiversity reasons, to stay on top of a ballooning deer population. So I do think that you know, there's that wonderful phrase, isn't it? The arc of the moral universe bends slowly in favour of justice. I probably absolutely ruined these. Uh, is it a lucy king quote? I forgive me, I should. It's going to be one of those things I wish I never got.
Speaker 2:We'll find it and put it in the comments. That's it. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is, I'm, I think it's uh, uh, I. I've probably absolutely ruined that, that quote, but nonetheless, I think the point is I'm trying to make. Is that time, if you are doing something right and if you have got the correct justification for doing it, and what you are doing is sustainable and in the interests of the environment, the message must get through eventually, mustn't?
Speaker 2:it. I hope, I would, I would, I would really hope. So it's um, it's just a long, slow process and I think we have to keep plugging away at it, but unfortunately it will. It probably defeats a lot of people along the way, because it is such a it's such a muddy field you're plowing through and and forever getting stuck in, and that's the biggest problem.
Speaker 3:It is, peter, but I think we've got one enormous thing in our favor and that is the rise of social media, the rise of podcasts like yourself, the rise of YouTube, facebook, instagram, and I think this gives us the opportunity and, like you're doing here today, gives us the opportunity to get our voice out there, and that is something that we didn't have years ago, you know, and so there's a real positive there. So, if good people like you, peter, you know, if people like yourself quite genuinely I mean this if people like yourself and Peter, you know, if people like yourself quite genuinely, I mean this if people like yourself and people like you know Field Sports Channel and you know, dare I say, you know our YouTube channel and you know our websites and countless other people who are putting themselves out there. If we continue to get this message of sustainability and if we get that message out there, then I think social media is our friend.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it does have its positive places. Obviously, we've noticed things in the algorithms on Instagram and Facebook that they are starting to they don't like certain things appearing in their programs and stuff like that and they are filtering a lot more out. But, as you say, if we can keep building and building slowly and steadily podcasts, youtube everything works well, well, you're, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 3:But there is a incentive then, I think, because we've got to work with this to change our terminology, isn't that? Yes, I, you know too used to the fact. Uh, you know we're got to work with this to change our terminology, isn't that? Yes, you know too used to the fact. You know, we're probably a bit too used to going out there and saying, yeah, I went out and I shot this animal. And well, the simple rephrasing of that, saying I went out into the countryside and harvested an animal that I was going to then take home and use, instead of buying a joint of beef from Tesco's Just by changing that terminology from killing to harvesting, using sustainability, using biodiversity, using these phrases, we can, I think, ensure that, you know, we continue to get the right message out there. So, if we have to adjust our terminology, well, it's a small price to pay in order to get that message out there.
Speaker 2:I completely agree, and it's key. It really is just to make sure and, just as we keep doing, just keep educating and hopefully getting information to people and taking it from there and and taking it from there, well, I think I think that kind of um, you've explained everything. That, uh was sort of my questions to you, so I think that's kind of a nice place to uh to sort of wrap this podcast up, unless there's anything else you you have to add no, peter, it's been an absolute pleasure to speak with you.
Speaker 3:It's uh, you know. Thanks ever so much for having us on. It's been brilliant. It's nice to have that opportunity to tell your listeners about what we're doing. I suspect you've probably got a few busy months ahead of you, don't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've just actually managed to. Well, I've been invited to help with a friend on the Reds this year, so he's taken on a new estate, so overlaps there, so we'll be dragging a few few stags off the hill, um and uh, I think we're doing the opening season with him for walked up grouse as well, so that'll be quite good fun. So, again, that's that's. That's something good to uh, to get across to people how, uh, how grouse shooting is is accessible to everybody yeah, a subject of another podcast?
Speaker 2:I'm sure not me it will be absolutely. But uh well, thank you ever so much for this and uh, yeah, it's been a bit of pleasure absolute pleasure, peter, nice to speak with you.
Speaker 2:I hope you enjoyed that podcast. It's certainly fun to record it and to find out a little bit more information about the new PDS1 and PDS2. It's always something to to keep up to date with with new developments within the deer stalking world. If you're looking for more information, obviously if you google pds1 it throws up their their website fairly quickly. If you've got any questions you want to ask me, message them over, email them across and we'll try and answer them. Anyway, check back in a couple of weeks time because we have managed to get an interview with rob gearing of spartan precision and it's a bit of a all over the place interview, but uh, yeah, certainly some good information comes out of that. But yeah, it's good fun.