The Outdoor Gibbon
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The Outdoor Gibbon
27 Katie Hargreaves Wildlife artist and deer stalker
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There's something wonderfully contradictory about Katie Hargreaves. She's a vegan who hunts deer. A colorful painter who found fame through black and white charcoal. An accidental artist whose work now hangs in homes across continents.
Katie's artistic journey began with a simple birthday gift—a fallow buck painting for her hunting-enthusiast boyfriend. Despite her background in vibrant, psychedelic colors, she reluctantly tried charcoal "to prove him wrong" when he suggested black and white. That experiment changed everything when her first charcoal pieces sold immediately at a Beretta Gallery event in London. "People seemed to really like those because it's completely different," she explains, describing how she discovered her signature style almost by accident.
What makes Katie truly fascinating is her ethical framework. Eight years ago, she became vegan after researching industrial meat production, yet she stalks deer and consumes venison when ethically hunted. This apparent contradiction dissolves when she explains: "My ethics to become a vegan are exactly why I also agree with hunting." She understands conservation necessity and wildlife management in ways many vegans and non-hunters don't, creating a unique bridge between these communities through her art.
Beyond her distinctive charcoal drawings—primarily of deer and hunting subjects—Katie recently collaborated with the British Deer Society on their field guide, completed her Deer Stalking Certificate, and regularly exhibits at major UK field sports shows. She's temporarily closed commissions to focus on larger, more dramatic pieces and dreams of photographing African wildlife to create art from her own references.
Want to experience Katie's remarkable work firsthand? Visit her at upcoming field sports shows or explore her website for originals and prints that bring the beauty of wildlife and the outdoors into your home. Each piece carries her unmistakable style—timeless black and white images that celebrate our connection to the natural world.
Katies web page https://www.katiehargreavesart.com/
insta feed https://www.instagram.com/katiehargreavesart?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
Introduction and Updates
Speaker 2Hello and welcome to the Outdoor Gibbon podcast, episode 27. This week we're going to be talking to Katie Hargreaves. I say this week. We actually recorded the podcast back in January. So there's a reference to a show called Hundenhound in Germany that Katie was hoping to get to. Unfortunately, she never managed to get there because of an issue with her passport. So it's actually quite a good one to bring up that. If you're going to be traveling, just traveling, or you're going to travel for hunting, modern passport laws now state that your passport expires 10 years after the issue date, not the stamped expiry date on your passport. So some people, there was a way of extending a passport for six months or or something like that, but it's actually the 10 years after the issue date, so don't get caught out like she did and miss the show. So check your passports and make sure you've still got plenty of time on them. So a bit more of an update in the hunting calendar for anybody listening.
Speaker 2Today is the 15th of february, the actual day that the red hinds go out up here in scotland. So that's pretty much the end of the the red deer season for the moment, until july comes back around, when it all starts again. Robux will be just around the corner, coming back in in april, so it'll be early mornings and getting out and seeing what's about. The pheasant season is obviously well and truly over. But for those of us that help with hatcheries and stuff like that, it will be egg time soon. So everybody's got their bets when the first egg will be laid and we'll be getting incubators set up and the whole process starts again. It's almost like it never ended Another year will disappear as quick as that. So in some other exciting news I can't remember whether I've told you or not the outdoor gibbon will actually be at the stalking show.
Speaker 2We will be on stand and available to answer questions. Have a chat, just come and say hello. We'll be helping somebody else out while we're there, so there's plenty to be going on it. Have a chat, just come and say hello, we'll be helping somebody else out while we're there, so there's plenty to be going on it. And we've already started sending out a few of our podcast stickers. If you want one, drop us a message and we'll get one in the post to you. Anyway, let's get on and listen to the interview with Katie Hargreaves. Obviously she's a very famous artist, or becoming a very famous artist, and I would say that most people will know of her or have seen her work, and if not, you may well own a piece. So, uh, without further ado, we'll jump straight into this recording.
Speaker 2Hello and welcome to the Outdoor Gibbon podcast. Today we have got Katie Hargreaves, international artist. How are you doing, Katie?
Speaker 3International. I didn't know you would actually say that.
Speaker 2Why not? Why not? You've just come back from the States, haven't you?
Speaker 3Well, I was there on a scouting mission for myself. Actually I wasn't working, but I was at one of the big hunting shows in Dallas and I'm thinking about going out there at some point soon but I've seen other artwork disappear into different parts of the world.
Speaker 2I'm sure you did some rhinos that disappeared off.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, that was um America as well. Um, I've done, to be fair. I've sent, over the years, work to lots of different continents and countries, and it's just lovely.
Speaker 2Therefore, you are an international artist. So let's start at the beginning. Who is Katie Hargreaves? Tell us about yourself.
Speaker 3Well, that's a pretty deep question.
Speaker 2Well, just a brief overview.
Speaker 3So I'm a wildlife artist. I work mainly in charcoal, so I do a lot of black and white stuff. I mainly centre around the subjects to do with hunting and shooting. That's my sort of industry that I'm working in and that's why I'm talking to you today.
Speaker 2No, absolutely.
Speaker 3Yeah, so I guess I'm a field sports artist but um, I also do a lot of other wildlife and lots of dog commissions and things like that, so it spans across everything that kind of lives and breathes in our natural world okay, so when you did you first start out and it was doing just the the commissions for people, or has it always had an interest in the hunting side of things?
Speaker 3um, it's funny because I think most artists start in the pet portraits world because it's it's a really great business to start off with. Everyone that has a pet is a potential client. So it's just it's great. Um, but I started off doing some really obscure hunting um related pieces like African antelope. Um. I was doing an ibex, a macaw, a sable, like right at the beginning. Because it all started because my ex-boyfriend he was a real hunter and just obsessed with hunting um and he sort of encouraged me to to get into the art side of it because I did a piece for him for his birthday, because I didn't have any money. So I was like, oh, I could just paint you a fallow buck. You're really into deer, don't really know anything about deer, but I can paint one um. And he was like, oh, you should try this, you should try that. So it was kind of a little bit of a challenge to to start it. But it was never the plan to be an artist, it just accidentally happened. But it was a wonderful accident.
Speaker 2I was gonna say it's a wonderful accident, because some of the pieces that you've produced are absolutely stunning.
Speaker 2You've also haven't you, I have, I have your UK6. Yeah, nice, absolutely fantastic. No, it's. And anybody that hasn't seen your artwork well, they can. Obviously. As soon as they've listened to this, they can dive onto your website where there's loads of pictures and all the prints and you can actually buy it on there, which is even better, can't exactly so. So you kind of explained how it all started so, but it's obviously grown arms and legs from then, from when you first did obviously it was a painting, but now you've moved over to just doing everything really in charcoal yeah.
From Colorful Beginnings to Charcoal Success
Speaker 3So I, when I was at school, I did a level art. I was I was sort of like middle upper average at art in my class. I wasn't like super good or anything, um, but I always used paints and very bright colors, very kind of contrasting, psychedelic almost colors. Um, human portraits, that was my thing, right, um. So the first deer that I did was sort of very bluey and red fallow buck. So I mean, you can imagine how weird that might look, but in my head I was like that's cool, it's a bit different. Um. And then after a few paintings so my boyfriend's name was Dan he suggested oh, what about like a big black and white thing? And I was like I don't know, I don't think that's going to work because my thing is color.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 3And then I tried it to prove him wrong and I was like, well, that's pretty cool actually, oh, fantastic, yeah. So charcoal was just the first thing that I picked up, knowing that that was black and I hadn't really got any experience in it. So I just sort of played around with it, um, and it sort of it was the first thing that anyone bought. So this was back in 2016, by the way, so quite a while ago, um.
Speaker 3So my first exhibition, if you like, was at the baratta gallery in london, had some friends, um, who worked there, so I managed to get in on a little event networking event thing, um, and had my, my few pieces that I'd ever done with me and I was like I'm a professional artist, yes, I know what I'm doing. And I was like I have no idea what I'm doing, um, but I sort of talked the talk and, um, schmoozed, and then I sold three charcoals that night and I was like, okay, that's where, that's where I'm different, that that's why people are buying it. So I'll go down the charcoal route because that seems to be making me money.
Speaker 2I was going to say, because obviously, jumping straight into a Beretta Art Gallery in London is baptism of fire, if anything.
Speaker 3If anything was going to sell, it was going to sell there, and so, yeah, fantastic if anything was going to sell, it was going to sell there and and so, yeah, fantastic. And you know, I'm I'm actually quite glad because at the time I had no idea the significance of that, that or how kind of cool that is, because I just didn't really know the industry at all. But I'm glad that I I was very naive to it all because I had nothing to lose and I had no expectations and if it didn't work then it wouldn't have been like crushing or anything, it was just I was just trying it out, basically. So, um, I'm really glad that that I sold three pieces. It was actually to one of um, do you know? Oscar Waktare GMK.
Speaker 3OK, yep yep, it was him that bought them and I told him this last year at the shooting show. I was just like do you realise, if you hadn't bought those pieces, I may never have just carried on and pursued it because I would have not realised that there was any kind of potential there. So yeah, it's pretty cool looking back on it.
Speaker 2I was going to say. It's one of those things where everything just aligns. And you, you hear of artists that spend years and years struggling to actually get recognized and actually sell something, and obviously the right it it's always, I've said, in this game, it's not what you know, it's who you know, and it's one of those. It's the networking side of it, and the shooting industry is tiny anyway. So if you, if you can get in the right place and in front of the right person, generally the doors open.
Speaker 3So, and yours obviously did yeah, and I think since then, like my, my skill level has just completely changed. I, I would hope um, but at the time I was I was sort of good enough to get in um, but I think what, what really was the key was that there was that market there. Like people that are into hunting and for some reason liked the black and white stuff, it just all fit as like a, as a market for me. So in a way I sort of found my, found my audience before I even had the product, that sort of yeah, no, that makes sense whereas I guess most artists have the product and then they're trying to find the right audience.
Speaker 3I'm not really sure. I don't know.
Speaker 2I think that's. That's probably true, because there's a lot that you look on social media and there's a lot of people that do portraits of things and stuff like that. But there are a few that, like yourself and I can think of a few others, that people would just recognize the work straight away and because of the mark and the line they're in, it goes hand in hand and I think the black and and white it's one of those things.
Speaker 2it's kind of timeless yeah whereas if you, if you have a portrait, that's that's color and you you see, like a lovely oil painting or a watercolor, it's kind of it, it's a time stamp on it, whereas you take something that's a black and white, charcoal, charcoal pencil drawing, and it doesn't matter 30 years down the line it's still in fashion, it's still, it's still a it's, it's still there, it's still as if it was today, kind of thing yeah, I think that I mean there's some, some artists that I know who are still making amazing oil paintings in, especially in the field sports world.
Speaker 3That's sort of the predominant medium I suppose that is successful at the moment, um, and it will always have a place in in the shooting world because there is that sort of oldie worldie grandeur sort of thing with the you know the old dark woods and you can imagine like a hunting lodge with smoke and dark mahogany everywhere, like it just works. But I think that I'm just, I think I'm just lucky that I found a bit of a niche that brings the modern aesthetic to the old, traditional like way of hunting and field sports no, absolutely, because not not all of your work is all black and white.
Speaker 2You have, um, you, you do things with like a little bit of color in them, like there's a couple shooting and they they're firing out almost like confetti and things like that at the end of the barrels yeah, I've got a few um, I call them the bangs.
Speaker 3They're like a person shooting in charcoal and then there's color coming out of the gun. Um, and that was just that came from an experiment way back in the game and um, yeah, people seem to really like those because it's just a bit, it's completely different and it's um, I I think they're a little bit like banksy, kind of like.
Speaker 2They're different aren't they yeah?
Speaker 3um, yeah, so so I've got that side of it. I'm also I'm sort of dabbing my toe back into the painting side of things because, um well, a client of mine has commissioned me to do a blue roebuck, which is actually that just gonna say so anybody that's listening.
A Vegan Who Hunts: Ethical Contradictions
Speaker 2We won't. We'll try and get a photo of this if we can, but obviously there's a. There's a wonderful picture of well, basically a painting of a blue roebuck and a, and a sketch of that blue roebuck just above that on the wall behind that. That's actually the photo oh, is that the photo?
Speaker 3yeah, so it's, um, it sounds weird, but it's a blue, it's a teal colored roebuck and, um, basically the guy has a teal wall and then he wants this painting to be opposite it and to complement the color scheme of his lounge.
Speaker 2So, okay, it's kind of weird, but I actually love it I was gonna say from the moment we actually started the video call to actually record this podcast. It caught my eye because it's like you were talking about black and white but early days of color. I was like, well, she's doing color again, so obviously she's buying colors back.
Speaker 3It's just to be honest, it's the first time that I've used paint for years and it is so fun to just to to go back into that, because it's a completely different way of working and when I started this it made me really realize like you just use your, use a different part of your brain as an artist to work in paint versus charcoal it's like completely different. But I took that for granted because I just sort of gradually got into one thing. But it's nice, it's a challenge, I love it.
Speaker 2I was gonna say it's something different at the end of the day. You don't have to do it all the time, but actually being able to dive back in and do something a bit different is uh is always good. So will we see more color on our? Katie Hargreaves stands at different places maybe I don't know.
Speaker 3I think that. I think that for now, I'm definitely um, just enjoying the charcoal and I think it's so record, it's getting recognizable as a style and it's filling a gap in the market that I think I'm just doubling down on, basically, um.
Speaker 2But who knows, maybe I'll get bored of charcoal in a year and I'll be like, right, that's it, charcoal days are over so anybody that's got an original now needs to quickly hold on there, because if charcoal disappears, color that this could be, it could be. Uh, yeah, as you say, like the type of Banksy idea and things like that.
Speaker 2These uh you never know that excellent, right question for you, because obviously some people will know this, but many don't. You obviously are involved in hunting and you've been out, but I think you are not generally a meat eater. Is that correct?
Speaker 3yeah, um. So I'm a bit of a weird one, I am. I would say I'm most of the time vegan okay, and actually no, I am a vegan, but I also meet, eat um venison and wild game if it's ethically shot um. So I went vegan about eight years ago.
Speaker 2Pretty much business so you, you, you were a vegan before vegan became like a fashion buzzword at the moment, um.
Speaker 3It wasn't like the 1950s when everyone was just very concerned about you if you went vegan, but it wasn't so popular, I suppose. Okay, I wouldn't say I started the trend, but no, so yeah, it was an ethical decision. It was an ethical decision. I just basically did some research into the meat and dairy and egg industry and within like literally half an hour I just went from being a big meat and cheese and milk eater to nothing. I was like I can't do that.
Speaker 2Right right.
Speaker 3Seeing what I saw and like learning what I learned, I was like I can't, I can't buy into that anymore, I just don't agree with it, I don't think I need it. Um, and my boyfriend dan, he was like, yeah, but you still, you still agree with, like conservation, right, it's like, uh, I don't know, tell me more. Because I was like, well, I don't know, tell me more. Because I was like, well, I don't think I can agree with hunting because most people would assume if you're vegan, hunting does not work. But he sort of educated me as to why it was actually pretty important for wildlife and why management was essential for the deer population and everything. So I was in a very unique position of deciding to face my, what my morals were, at the same time as having all the information, which I think is quite rare maybe.
Speaker 2I was gonna. Yeah, I think I think you're right because I think a lot of people just see it as they cut meat and dairy out of their diet because the they see the mainstream media feeds of this is how your beefs produce, this is how your lamb comes in, this is chicken farms for you and it just puts them off everything. But it's actually being able to explain, as as as your boyfriend did, about the the whole conservation side of thing. And if we don't shoot the deer, then the deer population is just going to go massive and they're all going to starve to death. Yeah, and I think that that's a huge thing.
Speaker 2I was. I was only on the phone to a friend of mine the other day. That's a photographer and he deals a lot. Of his clients are vegetarians and vegans and I said do you know what? I would really like one of your clients to come out and potentially do their stalking with me, and they don't have to pull the trigger, but they have to come and see the whole process, purely because I think once you've educated, they can take that information away and obviously it works for you yeah it.
Speaker 3You just realize that it's a completely different system altogether. You think, oh, because it's an animal that dies and people eat it, it's the same. You brush it all with the same color. Um, but as you and probably most of the people listening know, it's, it's just, it's essential for wildlife. Um, so yeah, but I still say I'm a vegan, mainly because it very quickly will tell someone not to feed me all the stuff I don't eat no, that's how I understand that and I, and I also do believe that, um, my, my ethics to become a vegan are exactly why I also agree with hunting.
Speaker 3So I don't know. It's just difficult with labels, because labels are always an issue, um, but I think that there are so many similarities between why someone might choose not to consume meat and why we should hunt. It's like the same idea, but it's just hard to to to think of it in in a different way I, I know, I think I think that's the thing.
The Deer Stalking Experience
Speaker 2I think if we could get more of the, the education across to people, I think. I think the problem with the hunting industry and hunting group is there's they're very poor at communicating and they sometimes just want to throw it out there and go. We're hunters, we do this because but they don't take the time. Then you've got let's just say, you've got the vegan side of it, and the two of them come together and it's just a head-banging session, whereas actually, I think if you could actually sit them down and go through the whole thing and you could get some of the guys that are very good at what they do in the hunting world to actually say, well, hang on, you've got, you've got to explain it in a lay person's terms would actually would make a huge difference.
Speaker 3Yeah, and I think I think that's where we struggle in terms of this industry yeah, and I mean with all sort of social media stuff, there's always going to be the the loudest voice voices are the ones at the extreme ends of things and, um, yeah, there is a big, it feels like there's a big divide. But I think if you just talk to people and explain in a very like, kind and and generous way, um, without judging someone too quickly, because you know if, if you said, if you went to the game fair and told everyone you're vegan, a lot of people would immediately try and like, accuse you of things, and that's not how you educate no, no, not at all actually, to be honest, it's.
Speaker 2It's one of those things it's probably quite tricky being. I don't know how the reaction has been. How have you found it? When you are talking to somebody at the game fair and it come that, if that conversation does come up, what's their reaction?
Speaker 3so I've had extremely good reactions from pretty much everyone in the field sports industry that I've talked to about it, um, and I've I've come out and said it on lots of like big platforms online as well, so I've had a lot of chance for people to abuse me, but actually it's been, it's been great I think. I think it helps that I that I say, and I also eat venison, I also understand it and I explain myself, um, so people immediately feel like, oh, she does understand conservation and why we shoot, so I'm not the enemy, um, but yeah, I've had nothing that sort of positive um reaction to it and a lot of people saying I totally understand why you do that and and I could even do that, but you know, probably not going to but that that's.
Speaker 2That's really good, that it's, it's positive. That's the most important part, because you hear unfortunately with social media you hear so many bad stories of people that will say something and then they're completely and utterly shot down or they get a lot of negative activity and I think it's worse. We were discussing this the other week. I think it's worse with um females in field sports than males. It's almost like people just want to attack and throw things at people and it seems really bad, to be honest, in this day and age yeah, it's, it's not good.
Speaker 3I think you have to be careful of what you say online, because anyone can read it and everyone's going to interpret it in different ways. Um, I remember that I was so. I I was on the field sports channel, uh, about two, uh almost three years ago no more than three years ago and we were going to go hunting and they were going to talk to me about my art and I was like, should I tell them? Shouldn't I tell them? I'll just tell them, like, before we do it, by the way, I do, I do understand that we're going to kill a deer, but I am vegan. I was so scared that they were just going to tell me to go, that they were going to judge me, and their reaction was right. This is now what the episode is going to be about, because this is way more interesting.
Speaker 2Oh, fantastic.
Speaker 3But I was really like I didn't tell people because I just thought people are not going to respond well, but since that episode came out and a lot of positive reaction came, it made me realize actually I should be talking about this because it maybe will open some minds to thinking like not all vegans are evil and hate hunting. I'm sure there's not many people like me, but I think if I can, if I can put in a good word for ethical eating, then maybe that's a good thing yeah, yeah, maybe it needs a new label.
Speaker 2Maybe that's what it actually is but I've had old school friends that have have literally sent me messages going look, I became a vegan, but actually I need protein. My body really needs protein.
Speaker 3The doctors have told me I've got to have something, so I'd like to be able to purchase venison off you, if that's possible, that's so good and I really I think that that's like maybe the conversation I need to start having with people that I know who are vegan, because there are. There are certain situations where you do need actually meat, um, in your diet, maybe just a little bit, but without going, oh, there's no point in being ethical, I might as well just eat anything. Because the doctor said, choosing the most ethical for me is like a great place to start and yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2And to find somebody local that will supply them venison that they can almost tell a story of and know exactly where the deer was, etc. For them, then that they know that at least the meat they're eating has has lived a happy life exactly, yeah, so I I think I eat more venison now than I did like five years ago.
Speaker 3Um, but that's just because I have people that give me venison or I go stalking a bit more.
Commissioned Art and Show Exhibitions
Speaker 2I was going to say because you've actually been. You've actually been out stalking, haven't you?
Speaker 3I think there was a, obviously you said field sports, but uh, you, you now occasionally go out stalking with different people and yeah, um, so I've actually, funnily enough, I've been stalking since I've been vegan, so, um, it's probably been about eight years as well.
Speaker 3Everything started eight years ago, yeah, yeah. So yeah, I got into stalking with my ex-boyfriend. He took me out and I shot my first roebuck with him and we went out stalking so many times and didn't have a safe shot or opportunity, so I had quite a lot of experiences out in the field with him and then had a bit of a gap, um, for a few years, and then have got back into it in the last like three years, um, and I've just applied for my firehouse certificate so I can have my own rifle at some point soon, um, but yeah, I mean, I I love going out stalking with a camera as much as I do with with a rifle, um, and obviously with a camera I can go on my own at the moment yeah, no absolutely it's kind of a similar experience, I guess, when you're you're out there and you're trying to outsmart the deer and you're trying to find them and use your brain and go back to home together a mindset and everything I think that's one of the things.
Speaker 2Even I'll quite happily go out and there'll be times when I've got the rifle. I just sit there, you watch the deer. It's 30 yards away, it walks past you and it's like that'll do go home. Now I suppose there's no. Some people pay their leases and they feel there's a pressure. They've got to go out and pull the trigger to bring something home. I'm incredibly lucky, have a lot of access to a lot of land so I could just go there, sit there and watch them and not have to worry. Um, generally you'll have somebody moaning at you going you need to shoot that, but it's like I'll go back tomorrow and do that. It's fine, but some it's, sometimes it's that it, it's that head space, as you say. You can take the camera out and actually just to be out in nature and just to sit there and there's nothing else. You can switch your phone off and watch the world go by.
Speaker 3It's it's absolutely fantastic it feels like there's not much else like it, um, in our society. I remember the first time going out for a long time, um, actually it was with the field sports guys, um, and I wasn't used to stalking at that point, so I was just, I was out there and I was kind of like thinking, come on, let's go, let's go, and they were just like really slow, just waiting, just listening, and I was like, oh yeah, oh yeah, just gotta like relax, listen, slow down, and it was like it's so interesting how like, even though I've been stalking before, it was, it was a really big moment. Oh yeah, I'm living too fast yeah, no, absolutely wonderful to be in that headspace.
Speaker 2It's kind of it's a yeah, it allows you just to slow down and um, and and take your own time, basically, and and to actually make there's no rush, whatever's happening, it doesn't matter how. If you walk 10 paces and it takes you an hour to walk 100 yards, doesn't matter, does it? It's, um, the amount of thing, the amount of things you see, and and, actually, when you sit really quietly we're really lucky, up here we've got red squirrels. So when you're sat, when you are sat there, and all of a sudden you've got two squirrels playing in the tree next to you or something like that the whole world, just it just changes. It just gives you that moment to go.
Speaker 2Actually, do you know what? We are actually in a slower world because I think life nowadays is so quick. Everything is instant, everybody wants everything now, wants it as quick as possible. And I'm sure you find it with art when, when somebody says how long will that commission take and you go it's going to take this long, they're like how long I could print it off for quicker than that oh, do you know what you've really tapped into my?
Speaker 3my biggest thing that I've been thinking about recently, which is just I have, I have like a list of commissions to do. Actually that's what all these stickers are. Behind me, I've got post-it notes on the walls to remind me of how many things I've got to do, which is probably not a good idea because I'm I just keep seeing them and being stressed. But, um, I tell people, you know in advance. I'll say you know, it's probably going to be six months until I can work on that. Um, and some of these I've had for like a year or more and some of the people are really patient because they understand, like you know, it doesn't happen like that. Sometimes things go wrong. Sometimes I massively underestimate how long something will take me, so it's more, it's like a backlog and it's um, it's not great when you're trying to be creative. I'll tell you that. Um, but luckily, most people are understanding of of that. So, yeah, quite a lot of stress no, I, I completely understand it, obviously.
Speaker 2Um, we recently did the the interview with tom douglas, the taxidermist, and, and he at the moment is still getting getting into full, full speed. But you, you hear a taxidermist and and he at the moment is still getting getting into full, full speed but you hear a taxidermist that have a two-year backlog, two three-year backlog of stuff. So if you're good at what you do, people will understand that. Um, and I think it's just one of those things. Eventually, it's kind of like I'm sorry I can't take any more commissions on at the moment. I've just got to finish.
Speaker 3I've I closed my books about four months ago because I was just like getting too hurt, too ahead of the game and, like I said, I always underestimate things. So, um, I just I've just decided to stop taking on new work until I've actually just finished everything, um, and then when I get new commissions, I'm gonna just tell them look, I don't know when it's going to be done, it will be done, but it might be two months, it might be two years.
Speaker 2So if you're happy with that and but actually anybody that wants a piece of your work, if they know what they're going to get and they do work two years when they do finally get it. It's actually the having to be able to put that up on your wall and go oh, look at that, I've got this piece of art. It's a great feeling.
Speaker 3So and the longer it takes me to do it, the better it will be, because my skill level is getting better every year even better, so, so that it's a win-win situation.
Speaker 2Whichever way they look at it, they're, they're gonna be, yeah, they're gonna be winning, yeah so obviously you've got the stalking let's go and talk about, because this year is going to be probably a busy year. But obviously all the shows, uh, I think the first one coming up is obviously the shooting show, then it's the stalking show. Are you going to all of these?
Speaker 3yeah, I will be there. I will be probably in the same place as last year, if you saw me there last year. Um, yeah, the british shoes new show is coming up pretty soon and I I've been planning my stand, so I do a little like sketch of where I'm gonna put all of the frames on the wall. Um, and I've had to rejig a few things because I keep selling pieces.
Speaker 2It's a very good problem to have. I was going to say it's a great problem to have If you're selling the work you're going to put on the stand. What a shame. You'll have to do more.
Speaker 3I know, yeah, I'll just print, I'll do prints. I've got a big moose original that will be the centerpiece, so I'm looking forward to people seeing that. Um, yeah, I love the shooting show and I love the stalking show.
Speaker 2I love actually I love all the shows for their different reasons, but there's yeah, because there's obviously you've got those two shows which is the shooting show is it's kind of a big shopping experience, isn't it in the NEC, yeah?
Speaker 3and then obviously the stalking show is a hundred percent people that really are just into their stalking yeah, I love it because it's so neat and for me, because I I've sort of specialized in deer, because that's what I have more of an interest in. Um, it's great for me because I can understand them as much as me. You know I have the same passion and so it's easier to talk to people about. You know what they love and people appreciate my deer because they really see a lot of them, which is always lovely.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's fantastic. And then obviously will you do like the game fairs as well.
Speaker 3Yeah, I'll be at the game fair fair, I'll be at the Scottish game fair and I might be at the northern shooting show or the national shooting show I think it's called now. Maybe not sure yet, but um, yeah, I'll be at those ones and then so actually, compared to like three years ago when I did 13 shows in a year because I was just crazy, um, it's a bit, it's a bit more select now, so hopefully that's going to reduce my, my stress levels a bit do you find the shows you sell a lot on the day, or it's orders after the show and stuff like that um, it's mostly at the show.
Speaker 3Um, you always get quite a few people that like, take your card and have a think and buy it online afterwards and I'm always like, why didn't you just buy it? Because you could have saved on postage. But, um, yeah it's, it's great. Actually, I do, I do really well at the shows that I keep doing and, um, there's nothing that beats personal interaction with a customer. Um, it's just, you know, if you, if you're buying from the actual artist, it is just a much better experience of of buying something than if it's just um a bit less personal.
British Deer Society Field Guide Collaboration
Speaker 3But I, I just love being at shows. I love being surrounded by the industry itself and talk to people about what, what inspired them to get into the, into the sport that they're into, and there's always people with stories that you just find unbelievable. Um, so it's, yeah, I love doing the shows. They're a lot of work. I think people think it's kind of just a bit of fun and it's just a weekend, but it takes about a week beforehand just to like package everything up and in the little print reps and everything and prepare, and then it takes a week afterwards to like actually clean everything.
Speaker 2It's an ordeal but it's worth it that's fantastic because you also have recently had a lot of your work put into the new deer book, haven't you?
Speaker 3yeah, so um it's. It was a collaboration with the british deer society. We did a book, the new field guide to british deer. That was yes, that's the title that that?
Speaker 2yeah, I couldn't remember it, I was just. I just suddenly thought I've got a copy of that. I need to.
Speaker 3Yeah, um so they asked me to do that. It was about this time last year that I was, that I was madly sketching away. So, yeah, they, they had some.
Speaker 2they needed to redo it it's a complete revamp of the of the book, so it's more up to date with all the relevant information.
Speaker 3Yeah, and they wanted some, some Katie sketching in there. So I was like great, um, I used quite a lot of pieces that I'd already done, which was helpful, uh, but I had to. I had to draw a few interesting pieces like diagrams of the different um droppings of the different species. Okay, okay, which is great fun. I can't believe I got paid to draw deer poo.
Speaker 2Hey there you go. That's it Fantastic.
Speaker 3Life goal achieved. But yeah, it was really cool actually, because it was a little bit like revision for my dsc1 again, because I did that three years ago, right, um, it was a little bit like going back in and and just making sure I knew what I, what I was actually talking about, um. But yeah, no, it's pretty cool and it's the first time I've had my work in a book, so I feel like it's kind of a big moment well, I was going to say because that that's obviously is one of the most important books.
Speaker 2Anybody, any novice stalkers, that listen and I know I get a lot that that listen if there's any book to go and buy, if you're looking for something, that little pocket guide is absolutely fantastic. It's not really small enough to be a pocket guide but it's a nice size book to to have on the bookshelf anyway yeah, you can.
Speaker 3You can fit it in your glove box in your car.
Speaker 2But yeah, pretty much. Yeah, you can sit there with your binders and flick through where to go. That's what I've got. It's in that field over there yeah, it's great.
Speaker 3It's like it's got all the identification stuff and it's just really interesting to to look at the sort of science behind different things and yeah, as you said, it's like a really great foundation place to start. Um, I've had a few friends of mine that have no association to stalking by it and call me up and be like um, so you? It says in there that they they shed their antlers every year. Like why does that happen? I love it. They're just getting so into it.
Speaker 2But that is absolutely fantastic that you've got people who have bought the book that aren't into hunting and they're taking an interest in it. Because actually I think in terms of there is a divide and the city folk and the people people don't understand what goes on anymore. Once upon a time when you, when we all probably were in our clans and all the rest of it, everybody would have known that the deer would have shedded their antlers and they would change color. But trying to explain to somebody that you get a seeker deer and in the summer it's it's an orangey color with spots, and in the winter it's a dark grey, they're like what really that deer changes and roebucks, they go from this grey to that beautiful, bright red. But some people don't know that they only ever see a roebuck in the summer. They never see it in the winter, kind of thing.
Speaker 3Yeah, and I remember before I knew anything about deer, I didn't really. I think most people don't know that there is more than one species of deer. They think that is a deer is a deer and it's a small deer or a baby deer. If it's a roe Red stag is a big deer.
Speaker 2Well, I think everybody's probably seen the Fenton video as well of the dog chasing deer around London. So everybody thinks that's an iconic deer, it's a stag and off it goes. But it's yeah, it's. It's that whole. And especially when you try and explain to somebody a chinese water deer or something like that, it's like it looks like a teddy bear. What do you mean? It looks like a teddy bear and you show a picture. Oh yeah, it looks like a teddy bear.
Speaker 3Yeah uh, it's um. It's just nice for people to want to engage with the wildlife. That's in our country, I guess. We see a lot of birds because they come into our gardens, but most people don't have deer in their gardens, so you'll see a deer on the side of the road, but you don't have a lot of interaction.
Speaker 2If you don't, you're not looking in the right places but again, I think that I think that boils down to everybody's life is so fast that they're moving so quickly, they miss these things. They're there, but how many people drive along the road and I'm terrible for it because I'm always looking out the window going, oh there's three row in that field and there's three row over there and you've speak to everybody else in the car and not you've got family following in the car behind you to see all the deer. No, and it's like you've just driven down that the same road.
Speaker 3I've gone down and they were all standing in the middle of the field yeah, or you're on a walk and there's a deer like really close just standing watching you, not sure whether to run or not, and just no one else is looking and you're like, but and it's one of those things it's I think once you've learned your deer, stalking and things like that, you understand about slowing down and observation and you observe a lot more.
Speaker 2There's a lot more things. We probably see that the average person that's out for out for a walk in the countryside is focused on the path and that's all they're looking at yeah, so true. Well, like as a deer stalker, you're not looking in the field, you're looking on the hedgerow yeah, or for me it's like you're looking three hills away trying to work out how we're going to get into those reds or those hinds over there, kind of thing. So yeah, so it's it.
Speaker 3You said you've done your dsc one yes, I have, I did that with them, the south ayrshire stalking guys. They came down to Paul Chilbally's shoot lunch and I participated.
Speaker 2Oh, fantastic. And how did you find that? As a? Obviously just explain how you found it.
Speaker 3It was so much fun.
Speaker 3I bought the subscription thing for the online quiz as a thing called dsc online or something, um, and a friend of mine recommended it and it has all of the test questions and then you can sort of test yourself before.
Speaker 3So I really did my homework and I was prepared, um, and then turned up for two days.
Speaker 3So the first day was like a refresher course, so we went through everything, um, in this like classroom setting, and I felt like such a nerd but I was surrounded by other nerds so it was great and we're all just like, yeah, are in it together and I met some really good friends of mine from that course actually, um, and then the there's part of the assessment is a shooting assessment, so you actually have to fire on a range and I was so nervous on that, but they, um, they were very, they were very calming people around me, so I ended up doing okay, but, um, it was just, yeah, it was really fun to just go really into depth and I think, even as someone that has done stalking before and I work, I stare at deer all the time to to draw them, whatever, yeah, like understanding why they do certain things, like the behaviors, the things that you don't see.
Speaker 3Um, when you're on a, on a walk, it's just so interesting going into that much level of detail and that's that's just a basic understanding, like some of that, but, um, it just felt really nice to like learn something in depth.
Speaker 2Um that I can. No, no, that's good, I know it's absolutely. And do you just really out of curiosity? Um, you've obviously done the dsc one because you want to carry on and get your firearms and become a stalker. Do you think you'll? You'll go on and get your level two, or just?
Speaker 3I think I will. I think I need a lot more experience with um, just like experience grallocking and and um with butchering side, because I haven't done a lot of that and I feel confident in certain aspects of stalking. But I just haven't had enough experience in some things. So I'm not in a rush to get it, but at some point hopefully. But I didn't. Actually I didn't do my level one for the firearms certificate. It was just I was just interested in learning more and getting a cool badge. That's not why I did it.
Speaker 2But that's a really good way of looking at it because it isn't a requirement in the UK to actually have a level one to have a firearms ticket. But you'll probably find that for your application yeah it will be looked on so much better that you've actually gone and done this pretty bit, and, and there's the section of the shooting test, so they can look back at that and and utilize that information for you, which is which is ideal. Oh, that's really good.
Speaker 3It sort of shows that you have a real seriousness about it and you're you're genuinely interested. You're not just um, it's not just a hot like a thing that you wanted to try out, it's something that you really considered and you, you actually have dedicated already time and money towards learning and um, yeah, I already actually had the um interview, so that was definitely a bonus because he was like, okay, well, that's clearly, you know, showing that you, you have a good understanding, you have the firearms, um handling ability and everything.
Speaker 2So ideal, perfect.
Speaker 3So if there's anyone listening, obviously that's always useful information for them, which is really good, oh yes yeah, yeah, yeah, totally it's just great, I think, because with the, with the um application, the main thing is like safety, you know, are you someone that is aware of, of handling a rifle, that is a deadly weapon, and have you got, like you know, practices that you're going to make sure, when you're clearing an obstacle, for example, you're not being stupid and you know? If you can prove that you've taken it seriously and and you've done all of that stuff, then it's, it's just what they want here, basically yeah, no, I think Alex the hunter-gatherer cooking that that came up to Scotland for his his first deer uh was a similar situation.
Speaker 2He'd obviously started on his journey to get his firearms but going through the whole process and then actually coming out using different rifles and stuff like that. I think that was very helpful when he actually went through and and got his tickets, because at least that way he could speak to the guy, the interviewer, the FEO, and and have that little bit more confidence in in the communication, whereas if you hadn't and you were just applying, it's kind of tricky because they're there to ask you questions and you're not. You might not know the answers yeah, exactly, exactly okay but that's really good.
Speaker 2so I'm we're looking forward to seeing Katie going out and doing more shooting then this is going to be great.
Speaker 3Hopefully, I think. To be honest, it's not like I have any land that I'm going to be managing. I have a lot of friends in the industry that have land. They're always like come and stalk at some point, come up and see me, whatever, and I'm I just I haven't made the most out of some of those invitations yet.
Speaker 2so but actually that's stalking is actually it. It's either really lonely or it's really nice to actually go out with somebody and go stalking, because actually when there's two of you out, for example on the hill, it's less of a lonely place. There's sometimes you need your headspace. But actually to go out with somebody else and go through everything and get them to get a deer, it's that look on their face when they've pulled the trigger and they've, they've put something down on the deck and you're like, yeah, happy days, I didn't have to do any work, they're over the moon, that's it, let's go get your deer, kind of thing.
Speaker 3And I think I can't wait for that, when I take someone who has less experience than me out and teach them, because I've just never obviously been that good, so that would be really cool when I get to do that but every day you learn, and I take lots of people out, but every day you still learn something.
Future Plans and Artistic Evolution
Speaker 2every day is a school day, there's, there's. I don't think if you, if you close yourself and say you know it all, then you're kind of blinkered. But if you're always willing to learn, then yeah, even you learn something from a guest that turns up and they say they do this and you're like, oh, that's cool, I didn't know that Brilliant.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2So what's next? What's the future got for you? Coming up, anything exciting and new.
Speaker 3Well, so I told you that I've closed my commission books. It's because I find that at the moment, I'm just working on commissions only and I'm not actually doing any pieces that I want to do right um, and I'm desperate.
Speaker 3I've got so much like so many ideas that I really want to try this and and experiment more with bigger pieces, because I last year I did a piece of two fallow bucks fighting and it was like four foot wide.
Speaker 3It was the biggest piece that I'd done, um, and it was bloody nightmare to do, but it actually was really, really cool in the end. I'm so proud of it, um, and I just want to experiment more with bigger, more dramatic pieces, um, and so, yeah, I've sort of closed my book so I can take back control, do a bit more of the stuff that I've got floating around my head, and I definitely so. I'm not the best photographer in the world, but I love going out taking photos and then, if I can work from, my own photo just feels so much cooler. It's like I was there, I saw that animal, I'm connected to that animal so much more. So I've done that with a few pieces in the past not not many of them, um, but I want to do more of that. I want to go to Africa. I want to take photos of of elephants and rhinos and buffalo and draw the things that I'm seeing and be a part of their world and like, yeah, so that's where I'm going fantastic, because I actually that will.
Speaker 2You're still technically stalking, but you've got to get in close and personal, so, actually. But you capturing it and taking that photo, you've stalked that animal for hundreds of people to see. At the end of the day, it's not just going to be stuck on the wall, it is actually something that's going to be out there for everybody to see.
Speaker 3Yeah, oh, very cool just I just want to like I love traveling, and if I can make my my business like intrinsically to do with traveling as well, then I'm just kind of creating the best possible life for myself. That's what I want to do excellent.
Speaker 2Well, I think, yeah, because I think did you go to, was it? You went to IWA last year as well, didn't you IWA?
Speaker 3uh, no, I didn't go, I was. I'm actually going to Jagdhund this year. Oh, no, sorry, you're thinking of um Sweden ah, sweet, that's where you went.
Speaker 2Sorry, I knew you went international somewhere, but I couldn't be aware he's just you, packed the car and drove off.
Speaker 3I drove to Sweden. Oh my gosh, I went with a friend, so it wasn't too um horrible, but yeah, it was. It was. It was an experiment. Um, it was a game fair out there and it was a nice show, but didn't. It was quite difficult to sell things because swedish people are very, very reserved and polite and didn't really want to come into the stand. They didn't want to really. Um, they were like so conscious of of their english as well. It was just hard to like get engaged with them. Um, but the show was. The show was nice. It's just maybe not the right show for me, so I really want to try um the agden hund at some point. That's like a goal I've had since the beginning, um, and I'm going this year just just to see it and to get a feel for it. So maybe next year, maybe America next year, hopefully there we go.
Speaker 2You see, we've started. We've started now the international artist. You'll be everybody on there. You'll have to close your for the next two years at this rate or just put my prices really high just well, if it works, it works. Happy days to anybody who's bought the right price.
Speaker 3But from this point forward, katie's more expensive yeah, that's a weird one because you you have to decide like, am I gonna put the prices up or am I gonna just take on less work and and sacrifice it? Because I don't want to outprice people and I think for me it's really important with with my prints that they stay around the price that they are, because if I've got a 50 pound print so anyone can afford that. Really like, if you really love it, anyone can buy that. But I don't want to sort of go way too high with everything that it. It just makes it so elitist like I'm not interested in that. But but?
Speaker 2but I suppose at the end of the day, it's your time, and there's only a limited amount of time in every day and at some points, if you're actually going to produce something, and then you have to, you have to raise your prices, because you can't work for nothing yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 3I think the originals will go up, but the the rest of it, I hope, will sort of stay. But it it dawned on me the other day. I was like I sort of been thinking about it in terms of you know, I can make this many pieces in a year. Therefore, you know, what am I looking to charge? But actually I realized I was like I might only be doing this for like 20 years, I don't know. Hopefully for a long time, but if I only have 20 years left, that means you know, every piece that comes out is really quite valuable, because no one else can do what I'm doing. People could do similar things, but I've been valuing myself a little bit more recently, which is a good thing.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly, you have to at the end of the day, because you can't employ people to do this job. So they're all originals, they are all, they're all yours. So, at the end of the day, it's one of those things. It's not it. It's not a transferable skill. Yes, you could have somebody else in, but they, they won't do the art.
Speaker 3They won't draw a roebuck, for example, the same way you would draw a roebuck yeah, yeah, and it might be just as good, but it's going to be different and it's it's so unique. I think that I'm I'm looking to potentially employ someone to like start fulfilling orders from, like my online sales and stuff soon, um, to sort of free up some time for myself, but at the end of the day, I actually quite enjoy the the easy jobs as well as the hard drawing that I quite like the filling in order that anyone could do but that that that gives you the break, doesn't it?
Speaker 2that allows you just to have that sort of bit of time away. What is it, artist block? You suddenly sat there and you're like I can't, I can't work out where to draw at the moment. So you go, you go and do some postal run and and post some prints, and happy days oh, if you knew how much I spent on the royal mail, you'd be shocked.
Speaker 3I'm sure the royal mail is very happy, but you may well yeah no, yeah, it's great and actually, interestingly like, the amount of time that I spend drawing is kind of minimal compared to everything else that I do in the business, because you know, I'm I'm running a full business, that is, I'm the head of marketing, I'm the sales person, I'm the printing person person, I'm the everything I try to think of job now, but there are lots. I'm the accountant, I'm doing everything. So people sort of would imagine that I just sit and draw all day and actually it's probably like one hour a day if I'm being behaved.
Speaker 2So there's a lot of other things well, life has a lot of other things going on in it and, at the end of the day, that you've got to do everything else just to be able to to do the bits you're doing.
Speaker 3So, yeah, yeah, no, it's. It's great though I'm so lucky and I I try and remind myself every day of, like you know how many people's dream this is, and I'm I'm so lucky to actually have, um, have a business that's working, and um that I'm, that I'm my own boss. I love that. It's very, very hard, but I don't think I could work for someone now. No, I've done this but of it.
Speaker 2But the other thing is, every picture, every print you produce, every original, you actually give the person that owns it that moment of joy that they look at the wall, they sit down in the lounge and look up and they think that's, that's, that's my picture, that's great and and that's the important part. So, yeah, as as well as you working hard and enjoying it, you actually give a lot of other people the enjoyment to to be able to look at, look at the artwork that they've, they've got.
Speaker 3I think that for me, like the most, the most important thing that I think I can give is you know people um, probably that are listening, people like you who love stalking, they love the outdoors, they love wildlife. If, if they can have like a glimpse of that within their home, it's like bringing their passion and their, their love inside as well, so you don't just have to go outside to see it, you can see it everywhere.
Speaker 3But it's like yeah, it's a celebration of, of your passion, of your, of your sort of lifestyle, that you've, that you've chosen that, that you're involved in, um, and it's some. I think the subject of of wildlife is, as you said before, it's timeless, because wildlife is not really going to change, hopefully too much, um, and it's always going to be just beyond our capability of like creation.
Speaker 2So it's just, it's an amazing thing in itself, like, so we can just celebrate that and, yeah, I feel very happy to bring that to people fantastic now that that that's really good, and um, so is there any questions that, uh, that you've got, or is there anything else you want to tell us? But I think otherwise we've kind of reached a nice conclusion yeah, um, okay, I've got a question.
Speaker 3What do you want to see me draw next?
Speaker 2now, is that to me or is that for the general public? Oh, to me. Well, um, obviously, the, the, the deer that I think is probably one of the. The most important deer for me is is the seeker. Now, you've obviously got the one that got away, which is an important one, but there are I, there are just something about seeker deer and the way they look at you and that face. So if you, if you did another one of those, almost a seeker that was quartering onto you, um, give you, giving you the evil eyes, that would be the one yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, see, because probably it's one of.
Speaker 3It's one of the ones that I've done the fewest of in terms of deer. I've never actually seen a seeker have you not?
Speaker 2I've seen a while in it. You need, you need to go.
Speaker 3You need to go to ireland, that's, that's where yeah, maybe that's why I've not done so many, because I don't feel like I know them very well but they have heard them once. I was very lucky to hear it.
Speaker 2I was going to say they are the elusive deer to actually to see them. It's always a very brief encounter. It always seems to feel like and they know you're there before you've even closed the door of the car, kind of thing yeah, yeah, no, I think that there is something really like mysterious about them, but they're very smart.
Speaker 3They're very sort of cunning, um, and, as you say, you don't see them for long. I've heard people say that.
Speaker 2So, yeah, definitely so that that's your camera and go stalking for seeker.
Speaker 3That's definitely the way yes, anyone knows where I could go with my camera, let me know.
Speaker 2I'm sure there'll be lots of people that will ping you messages after this. But yeah, it depends though, because obviously you've got different seeker as well. We were discussing I had a chat with different people about this, but obviously the scottish seeker are different to the dorset seeker and the different to the irish seeker. So, um, maybe there's a challenge for you I mean, are the, are the irish?
Speaker 3they're still into red with red, aren't they?
Speaker 2the, the irish, probably. There isn't a pure seeker over there, really. Now there's. There's definitely there has been a lot of of red breeding going on with them, um, and then obviously you've got the scottish deer again, but every one of them has a slightly different look about it, like we were just I think that tom was saying that the ones down south, um, much thicker manes and and darker in color and stuff like that. So yeah, there you go, it's a challenge for you yeah, I'll have to.
Speaker 3I'll have to get into that secret challenge there you go.
Closing Thoughts and Coming Attractions
Speaker 2Absolutely well, I, I think we'll, uh, we'll probably bring it to a close there, so thank you ever so much thank you, p, it's been lovely absolutely fantastic. I hope everybody's enjoyed this. And uh, remember, go and have a look at uh katie's web page. I'll put a link in the uh in the description for you. And uh, yeah, go and then when you get to the show, tell her you've listened to the podcast and say hello yeah, come say hi thanks for listening again.
Speaker 2Uh, just some other updates for you. We now have an official email address, so if you want to get in touch with the show, you can email peter at the outdoor gibbon all lowercase dot com. And for any of you that have been following me on my social media feeds, you will have seen that we had alex from the hunter gatherer youtube channel and instagram page up again to scotland. He has been out to produce another film. This time we took him out row stalking and then we actually took him down to the hill in the snow on the hinds. So watch this space for the latest film that will come up on his youtube channel. As soon as it's out, I will post a link to it and you'll all be able to see it.
Speaker 2We did grab a five very short podcast within probably five ten minutes tops, just while we were driving back from the hill. I think he was just far too tired. I think I almost broke him, but hopefully we'll. We'll throw that one up at some point as well, and we've got some other exciting podcasts to to come, but I'll do for now, so we will catch you on the next one.