The Outdoor Gibbon
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The Outdoor Gibbon
28 The Wild Order: Introducing Outsiders to Nature's Hunt
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Arthur's journey from vegetarian London urbanite to passionate hunting educator is the compelling foundation of The Wild Order, an innovative program designed to introduce newcomers to ethical hunting and wild game processing.
"The countryside isn't just a place – it's a relationship," Arthur explains, reflecting on how his first taste of meat during travels in Asia sparked a passion for understanding where food comes from. After struggling for years to break into the traditionally closed-off world of deer stalking, he created The Wild Order to offer others a more accessible pathway into hunting.
Unlike conventional hunting courses that require significant commitment or prior knowledge, The Wild Order welcomes complete novices into experiences that reveal the entire process – from understanding wildlife behavior to ethical harvesting, proper field handling, and butchery techniques. Participants don't just pull triggers; they develop meaningful connections with the landscape, learning about conservation, animal health assessment, and sustainable food procurement along the way.
Having seen both sides of the equation – growing up in a vegetarian household in London before becoming a hunter – Arthur brings unique perspective to heated debates about meat consumption and wildlife management. "Vegans and hunters actually have more in common than they might think," he suggests, pointing out that both groups seek meaningful relationships with their food sources. This approach has proven effective at opening eyes, with many participants describing their experiences as transformative.
Looking forward, The Wild Order plans to expand beyond deer stalking to include free diving, fishing, and foraging experiences on Scotland's west coast, always maintaining their fundamental commitment to teaching people how to respect and properly utilize wild food sources. Whether you're curious about sustainable meat, seeking closer connection with nature, or simply want to understand where your food comes from, The Wild Order offers a thoughtful pathway into hunting's deeper purpose. Follow their journey or book an experience through their social media channels and website.
They can be found at https://www.thewildorder.com/
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/thewildorder?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==
Hello and welcome to the Outdoor Gibbon podcast, episode 28, the Wild Order. On this episode we have a good chat with Arthur, the creator and the owner of the company called the Wild Order. Basically, it's an educational program offering some fantastic packages to people who've never stalked in their life and giving them an experience, a hands-on experience. So we'll get on to that shortly. Just before we jump into the podcast, let's have a look at where we are in the year. We're in March now. Robux are just around the corner.
Speaker 3:The first of the shows has happened, which was a great British shooting show at the NEC. Iwa has just finished in germany and I think that leads us up to our next show, which will be the stalking show uh, in staffordshire. And then obviously we've got other shows to come through, and then all the game fairs and everything else for the rest of the season. I can feel already that the year's running away fairly quickly, so we better get on and get some more podcasts recorded. I'm not going to waffle for very long at the beginning. Let's just jump straight in and listen to what the gibbon podcast. Today we have got arthur from the wild order.
Speaker 2:Hello, how you doing I'm very well, thank you.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me no problem at all, obviously. Um, anybody that follows you guys on social media will see that uh, you've kind of uh, you offer a great package and stuff like that and trips to scotland. I think that's the biggest thing we've been seeing recently. But let's kind of dig back a bit and and who are you and where did it all come from?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a good question. I have a very different background to the one I'm now involved in. Obviously, I grew up in London, grew up a vegetarian and moved to the countryside sort of in my 20s and sort of became interested in procuring my own meat, finding out you know where my meat comes from and all those things, and it all kind of spiraled from there so why that?
Speaker 3:why the change? Obviously you moved to the countryside, so why the change away from being a vegetarian at that point?
Speaker 2:well it was. I was never a vegetarian by choice. Pizza, that was the thing, okay, yeah. Yeah, I grew up a vegetarian, so my, my whole family is vegetarian, right. So it just sort of happened that way. Um, I discovered the wonderful world of meat while I was traveling in Asia and I just got hooked on it. I got hooked because the people that I was with when I first tried meat out there were kind of very much working with the land. They were hunting, they were gathering and it just seemed such a an amazing way to feed yourself. Sorry, I have to excuse my dog's dreaming in the background. Um, so, yeah, I I kind of fell into it that way. And then when I moved out of london, I I just began to get engaged in sort of countryside pursuits, as it were, and I did, I think I did the first sort of course I did. That got me engaged in kind of bushcraft and snaring rabbits was a woodlaw course.
Speaker 2:Um, that's ray mears's yeah, yeah, yeah me, uh, it's a long time ago now, but that was amazing and that was really my first kind of look into this kind of world that I'm now involved in. And from there it spiraled, as I said, and I and I met people and I struggled as I've said before on on a few other podcasts I really struggled to get into the world of hunting. It's, I mean in Sussex, where I, where I live it's not, um, it's certainly not scotland, uh, it's still fairly urban in comparison, I suppose. Yes, and took a long time, it took a few years to really get my uh feet under the table, uh, get some good connections and get some land to stalk on, get my farm's license, all those things that are kind of pretty tricky to to gain over down here, certainly, uh, and then the wild order really came organically from that struggle, I suppose. Okay, but that that was my journey into into the, into becoming a meat eater basically was through kind of odd connections and and a few courses. Really, yeah, no that's.
Speaker 3:That's kind of well it's. It's a different angle because a lot of people not 90 percent of the population that listen to this will probably come from a meat eating background. But to actually see it, where somebody's come from a background that they really had no choice in to actually be able to, to make that choice and go down that route, that's.
Speaker 2:That's sort of the thing we don't hear about that often I think it's so common now that you know obviously I don't want to generalize, but I'm going to I suspect that most people that hunt and eat meat grew up that way. They grew up hunting and, uh, you know, it's just the way they were brought up and it makes a lot of sense. Um, so it probably is kind of a rarity to have somebody that was brought up a vegetarian in london to now you know their whole life revolves around, uh, hunting and wild meat and teaching other people to do that but actually that's.
Speaker 3:That's kind of refreshing because you've kind of seen it from well, you're looking at it from both, both views, and actually to be able to come in there and and have that sort of um, what's the word? I'm looking for that opinion that anybody that actually comes to you say, for example, you get a vegan, rocks up and goes, I'm, I need to eat meat. At least you.
Speaker 2:You can say to them well, yeah, okay, so the best sustainable meat potential on the market is game or venison, because the nature of where it comes from exactly, and I think I think it does give me a fresh perspective on on hunting and meat and other, you know, country pursuits, because I was very much on the other side and it's it's definitely stood me in good stead in terms of being able to talk about it to people that are maybe unsure about engaging in in.
Speaker 2:What you and I now do is our livelihoods, um, and I mean my brother's a vegan, so, uh, I, I have those conversations all the time. He hasn't quite come on to wanting to eat meat yet, but I'm working on him, uh, but I actually think, funnily enough, I actually think vegans and the wild order have a lot more in common than they probably think we do, because we try and foster a relationship with the land that's very close, very engaged, very meaningful and, you know, I think if, if vegans could take a step back, some vegans could take a step back, they would see that what we do is as close to you know, a really meaningful relationship with your food as growing vegetables. So, yeah, I think we have a lot in common with those people and although I have a lot of difficult conversations, certainly on social media, with that crew over there, um, you know, I. I hope that they can sort of get on board with what we do.
Speaker 3:I was going to say that that's quite interesting. So do you get um, obviously on social media do you get quite a lot of backlash from sort of that community yeah, we have done historically.
Speaker 2:Uh, it seemed recently it seems like either the algorithm's just not feeding it to those people, um, but oh yeah, I mean I've been called all sorts like murderer and yeah, I've had some pretty nasty messages, but generally we just try and meet that with with killing, with kindness. That's what we say no, absolutely yeah and uh.
Speaker 2:You know, if people aren't going to see, people don't want to see through that kind of um I don't want to say misinformation, but if they don't want to see what we're doing in a positive light, then they won't and that's fine. I just don't want to be, uh, trolled yeah, no, I think, unfortunately.
Speaker 3:I think we've spoken. I've spoken about this many times before. The disney effect has a a massive um sort of thing to answer for what it's done for society. People believe that, like a deer running around the hill, has these big doe eyes and and and doesn't do any damage. But actually you've been up to scotland, you've seen the population of red deer and it's basically a herd of cows moving across the landscape and there's nothing. There is nothing to manage them apart from, unfortunately, us now the human human beings that are here exactly.
Speaker 2:I actually had a conversation with somebody on social media about this and I said that you know, we, we have to. You know, we are essentially now the predators, which he got very offended about and sort of saying so you see yourself as a predator, and I was like, well, essentially, yes, that's that. That is, you know, we are acting as wolves and bears and whatever. You know, that's because we removed those from the landscape, however many years ago, and so this is where we are. It has to be done, and it just so happens that the meat is delicious and the landscape's amazing and you know there's so much more to it than just killing a deer, as you know, I'm sure the.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the killing of a deer is a very clinical, it's a it's a two-second process in. In theory, that's the whole run-up to it and the process afterwards. That taking that animal and and turning it into food for many is is the way to look at it and that's where the value really lies in.
Speaker 2:You know it's obviously some people really get a kick out of hunting and pulling the trigger and you know that's their prerogative. But what we kind of try and champion at the World Order is the whole process with nature, meaningfully being in the landscape, being aware of what's around you, um knowing knowing how to identify trees and plants and cross rivers properly, and um enjoy seeing a golden eagle, like we did after um in the highlands recently, and all those kind of things. And then you know there is the the somewhat violent act of taking a deer which you know you can't get. When you kill a deer. It's a violent act of taking a deer which you know you can't get. When you kill a deer. It's a violent act and that's just how it is.
Speaker 2:But then there's so much more after that. It's getting it to the larder and hanging it and doing all that process taking the larder, information that's of great value to the estates up there, and then turning it into a food product. And you know it's, it's there's so much to like feed yourself with in terms of knowledge and inspiration and and and just having that. I I keep repeating it, but it's it's like the meaningful engagement with nature which is so important it is absolutely.
Speaker 3:It's kind of a moment of time that you'll have known being out on the hill and probably when you're out stalking down in sussex. It's almost a, it's a shutdown from society. In some ways you get that moment to step back in in sort of complete time and nothing matters. It's just you trying your approach onto an animal of some description and you hear nature, you see nature, everything around you, almost it kind of slows down and you don't have to worry about the real world for a few minutes absolutely.
Speaker 2:I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 2:And I think you know, when, on the rare occasion I go back to London to see a friend or something, I sort of look around and I have this voice in my head saying, oh, this is what people call a civilized society, but it never feels civilized. To me, what feels civilized is being out in the hills or in the woods and having that like real understanding of what's going on and a connection to you know, our ancestors and and all of those things, and I, and I think if more of us did that, we would. You know, obviously everybody can't be hunters, but everybody can experience it. You know, they don't have to fire a rifle, they could just come and have a look, get engaged, see what it's all about, and it gives you, it's a very humbling experience and, and that's something that, uh, isn't often spoken about, I think, um, and a lot of media, just, I mean, god dear, in the media, you know, every other day at the moment it's crazy, um, and I mean that's a whole nother subject, isn't it?
Speaker 2:But but I I think that's something that isn't portrayed enough. Um, when we talk about hunting, stalking, um, it, it, it is.
Speaker 3:It's a difficult one because, yeah, I've got a lot of, obviously I went to school down in sussex and things like that and then with my friends yeah, a lot of my, my school friends are still around london and it's been really interesting because obviously they see my lifestyle living up here doing what I do and some of them have come up and have been out with me, but it's it's I. I rocked up to see a bunch of them and I walked across from somewhere and just walked over to see them at a pub and they're like you walked. It's like, yeah, left leg, right leg, body follows. It's kind of one of those things I'm used to walking miles around the hill oh, my God, you actually walked.
Speaker 3:And it's like, yeah, it's it's, but for them it's it's, but for them it's like you jump on the tube or you jump in a taxi or you get the bus, but no, for me no issues, happy to walk it, but it is, it's a. It's a totally different world. Like I'm, I don't mind visiting london, but I'm so happy to be on the train away from there or on a plane out of there. It's um, it's fine for a few minutes, but, as you say, but you watch that society go by and they're blissfully unaware of what's actually happening in the countryside yeah, for sure, and and that kind of.
Speaker 2:You know, in many ways I don't mind that because it means the countryside isn't completely overcrowded all the time, selfishly, but I would. I, you know, I really get a kick out of seeing people have their having their eyes open to like I had. I mean, I sound like some sort of um born again. I'm not at all, but, but I, I, I really did have my eyes open to a world that I was completely unaware of, and now I'm aware of it, I, I can see it's important and it's beauty and I love, you know, being able to share that with people and that's. That wasn't something that I um, that isn't why I started the wild order, that's just something that happened along the way. Um, so, yeah, urbanites, come, get on board I was gonna say so.
Speaker 3:That actually leads us really nicely on to the next part, which is obviously the wild order. How did it come about? And the team you've surrounded yourself with?
Speaker 2:well, I'll start with the team, because without them obviously it would be a shit show. I've got my sort of right hand man, Alex. He's a great guy and a photographer, Not a hunter. Not a hunter until recently.
Speaker 3:I was going to say it looked like he recently got.
Speaker 2:he was up in Scotland I think had his first animal recently got, uh, he was up in scotland though I think had his first animal, that was uh gosh. That was the first year we ran the hunter's experience. So, right, yeah, just over a year ago, uh, he, yeah, he took his first uh red hind last, but I guess a year and a half ago or something like that uh up up in in scotland with us, which was great and and since then he's been stalking me in sussex a sort of handful of times. He's very much kind of uh behind the camera, um, big into his food and just a great sort of great guy to have on board. So, yeah, very grateful for him.
Speaker 2:And then there's obviously a guy called matt moss who I've worked with for years. He's a tree surgeon, as I was, and a hunter. I kind of cut my teeth hunting with him in sussex. So, okay, nice, it's nice to now have him on board with the wild order, um, he's, he's a good guy, he guides for us, um, and it's just very knowledgeable, great, great to have him board. And then obviously, you know, I work with sam thompson. Who do you know, sam thompson?
Speaker 3:I've been trying to get him on a podcast, but uh, you'll, you'll have to nudge him up and tell him to get in contact man to get a hold of um.
Speaker 2:But yeah, we met via social media, um, as is so often the way these days, and I I spoke to him back in 2019 I think, and I I had this wild idea that I wanted to to run a sort of backpack hunt through the scottish highlands, and it was going to be winter, and he said you've got to be fucking mad, I'm not doing that, uh. And then so I you know he rather burst my bubble, but uh, I think a year later he called me up and said well, I don't think that will work. I'm, I'm now, but I'm now working on a new estate and maybe that other idea you had could, could work.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, full steam ahead and and and we are now here, in our I guess this is our third beginning of our third year, uh, and so he's, he's a great champion for us. I'm very grateful for him too. And then other people have come out the woodwork along the way. Um, you know, we've got kind of mark zabroski. Um, he's a great supporter of ours, um, and and that really makes a huge difference to the wild order is having people around me, I suppose. But also what we do, sort of lending support, cheering us on and just like because it's it's hard and kind of lonely sometimes, you know, running a, running a small business and and like grinding away it's. It's great to have people within the industry championing you, and that's, um, not always the way within our little world, as I'm sure you know. You know it's there's kind of sometimes, uh, if you're trying to do something different or new people, it kind of frightens people, I think I was gonna say it's.
Speaker 3:It's a tricky one, especially when I think I think when I had rob gearing on, he mentioned that the actual, if you look at the number of firearms licenses within the the uk, it's a tiny proportion it's something like 500 000 yeah, it's nothing compared to the population of the uk and yet we're we're this tiny pocket, this tiny parcel of people and and we're trying to do so much, but, yeah, it's getting our voices out there and actually getting heard yeah, funnily enough, I spoke to mark uh today on the phone.
Speaker 2:We had a catch-up because he was up in scotland with me and we were talking about this little pocket that is the hunting industry in the uk and going. We were talking about maybe going to the um shooting show at the end of the month and and, um, you know that's all very good and you know I'm supportive of all those things, but it, you know, in many ways me going there is completely useless because I'll just be preaching to the converted. What. What I need is those people in london on the tube sat on the tube, uh, to come and join in and and see that you know what we're doing is not barbaric, but it's um, it's very civilized well, I think this is where I'm actually starting to this.
Speaker 3:This podcast is now going out to people that are non-hunters. I get messages all the time saying I'm interested in doing stuff and things like that. So off the back of this with our, so with my social media feed, we've had guys up to scotland. One guy especially came up to harvest the deer. Um, it's all been broken down backpack that's about to go in the post to him. So it does go to show he wanted a sustainable source of meat. He really wanted to do it. He came out, um, did his target shot, fine, took his deer and and it was a great day I did walk in 14k. But uh, that's all part.
Speaker 2:That's all part of it at the end of the day. You know, that's that's what when I, when I first started, that's what I wanted. You know, when I I very much saw myself as a meat hunter. When I first started, I just wanted to take one or two animals. I wanted to fill my freezer. Job done, as it turns out, things have developed and I now manage, you know, gear herds not on over massive tracts of land, uh, especially compared to people up in scotland. But, um, you know, I fell in love with the way, with the way of life. Um, so yeah, that the team is great. What was the other question you asked me? You asked me how it was it, how it started yeah, how it all sort of came about.
Speaker 3:Obviously it was it like an idea on the back of a, a table mat in the in a pub, sort of thing, or was it something else that sprang out?
Speaker 2:you know, I think it really came from the struggle that I went through to to become a hunter myself. That's where it came from, okay, um, I really struggled. I really struggled to find good people that I felt comfortable with, uh, when I was starting out. Uh, I just really struggled. It took, like I said, it took sort of two or three years to really get my feet under the table within sort of the deer world in sussex unfortunately.
Speaker 3:I was going to say sussex is the south, anywhere, anywhere down south. As soon as you mention deer, this green-eyed monster comes out and people become very protective and they don't want to. They don't want to share that experience and I think that is.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think that is quite a big issue within, uh, deer stalking just generally. Um, you know you, you kind of get stonewalled people. People have like huge, huge areas of land that they look after and they take their clients out, or maybe they just, you know, are a professional stalker and they're being paid, but, um, they, they slam the door in your face because they're scared that you're gonna take their land from them, um, even if you tell them that you're not going to. So I did struggle and I I thought I was thinking about how I could do what I love and make a little bit of money out of it. And so I kind of started to develop this idea and spoke to Sam Thompson about it and a few other people and I was already working for another company that do like deer butchery days and stuff down here and so the network grew and the idea grew kind of organically from there.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, nobody was was targeting people.
Speaker 2:Um, at, you know I don't want to keep saying urbanites, but nobody was targeting people that sort of just had no recourse to hunting.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, and if I had had the opportunity that I give people, I would have been all over it, all over it would have been signing up and that's kind of my litmus test for all the courses I'm like, right, so would I have wanted to do this in my like when I was green to hunting, and if the answer is yes, then I will take it further and that's stood us in good stead so far.
Speaker 2:Um, we, most of the people that we have on our courses, are totally, uh, novice hunters. Some have, you know, people have been to a firing range or we've done a bit of, you know, ccf at school or something. Yeah, very, very few have any experience and they're exactly the people that we want and they come from all walks of life and and from all over well, not quite all over the world, but we've had people from america and germany and, um, somewhere else that's really cool, though, that you actually because obviously yeah, I was going to say because obviously hunting in germany and places like that in the states is still very much, it's still ingrained in the community.
Speaker 3:Obviously, in the uk we've we've moved away from that, but you go out to germany and there's a high seat pretty much on the corner of every field yeah, in france.
Speaker 2:France too, it's just quite past them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly, it's one of those things, but to actually get somebody that, I suppose in the cities and stuff like that, it has become less of a knowledgeable thing and people have moved away from it.
Speaker 2:I think the other thing that maybe we do slightly differently is that a lot of hunting courses are quite formal, like the DSC1, for example, or maybe like Hunter Safety in the States or something I'm actually not very knowledgeable about those courses in, say, europe or anything like that, but you have to be very committed to do those courses, um, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't be committed to come on one of ours, but it's, it's. I like to think that what we give people is a sort of more accessibility, um, just because it's wrapped up in an accessible package where people go, oh, I can totally do that. I don't need a firearms license, I don't need a bit of land, I don't necessarily want a hunter's number, I just want to go and see if this is for me and I think that's really important. And maybe places in France and Germany, france and Germany and wherever maybe they don't have that either, maybe not, no, maybe.
Speaker 3:Maybe you have to get your hunter. I think in Germany you have to get your hunter's permit before you really go out and do that, so you can't sample it. I think, as I've said before to people, we're very, very lucky and almost spoiled in the uk with the population of deer we've got, and if you can find the right person, the access to deer can actually be be really good it can be better than anywhere else in the world, I mean absolutely bar new zealand, but you know yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 3:Well, new zealand's like walk into the local paper shop, buy your ticket and off you go, kind of thing really.
Speaker 3:If you, if you've got a bow or something like that, yeah you're away yeah, right yeah, but but to be honest I think down down where you are you'll have obviously things like muntjac, fallow um, some roe stuff like that to get on to um so realistically a wealth of stuff and and the deer population down there is is still it is very high. The fallow numbers are are large down where you guys are yeah, it, it is high, it's very high.
Speaker 2:I mean, I was out just the other day and you know you can, you can quite easily see, you know, 200 fallow in a field. Yeah, and that's not an unusual thing to see, although I do feel like the numbers are coming from where I am, where I store.
Speaker 2:The numbers seem to be coming down yeah, you don't have to super yeah but what I am beginning, this is like probably beyond this, this podcast, but what I'm beginning to worry about is, with all the rhetoric and newspapers about like we must cull millions of deer and all the rest of it is that we're at nobody's actually getting any hard data. No, no, nobody. Nobody knows how many deer I shoot on where I stalk and nobody knows how many deer my neighbor shoots on on their farm and that feels my neighbor shoots on on their farm and that feels like a bit of a sketchy place to be. When you're talking about deer management, I mean certainly where you are in scotland, I'm sure you're part of a big deer group over a great swathe of land and numbers are recorded and therefore you have data. So you, so you know what's going on down south. We don't have that it's.
Speaker 3:It is a shame you'd have thought that there would be something in place, because obviously, yeah, we deal with snh now some bits of the land that we shoot on, for example our reds some of them come into what's called a section seven. So there's a, a designated coal target that has to be reached and we have to feed that back. But other bits of land aren't. But obviously, tom, who I start with, he's got a very good um feedback with snh and gives them all the numbers of everything we've shot so they know what's going on um and then we know how many the target is for. Like, I think there's 17 estates around us. We've got an open number of deer that need to be culled. So there's still 100 deer open um. Please take those and if we get that number, well, happy days. We've.
Speaker 2:We've met the quota yeah, and that's, that's like what a what a powerful position to be in as a deer management, to act a deer manager, to actually know, to know what, what your targets are, to know what the data is absolutely but I mean, I could probably rant on this subject for a long time, I guess but maybe, yeah, maybe, that's something the deer stalking community we actually need to kind of instigate.
Speaker 3:We need, we need, we need one of these governing bodies maybe to actually step up. I know we've got the bds, but they like to give you their numbers and their sheets of paper and all the rest of it. But maybe it's one of those things. They should send a survey out and say, look, can we get what you're, what you've culled this year and what you've shot? And then we actually get data, don't we?
Speaker 2:yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:And because what the position that we don't want to find ourselves in is that we, you know, they've taken the buck season away for fallow in scotland, haven't they?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's almost certainly going to happen down here, uh, and what we don't want to find is suddenly that, you know, we've, we've hammered the deer so heavily that suddenly we've got this like a terribly mismatched proportion of female to male, or or maybe there's, you know, suddenly not very many at all. I mean, that's probably not likely, but it's the kind of when you're in the dark, which is what we are down here. It's a worrying position to be in and I think it wouldn't be it's. It's not too much to ask for a governing body just to, you know, say hey, dear stalkers, just send us, you know, your car records. But it all this all feeds back into people guarding the gate and being worried that somebody is going to come knocking and be like I want your bit of land or you can't do that anymore. But knowledge is power and you know, at the moment, certainly down here, that's not the case well that this.
Speaker 3:This is exactly kind of what happened over in in southern ireland. So numbers were, the deer population was out of control, but coal records would go back slightly incorrect. Or I remember being there in the office one afternoon standing with the guy on our syndicate and literally, how many deer did you shoot? I got two this time. Well, we'll call that 20. And it's like, well, hang on a minute, how could you just like make my number 20 when I've got two? But I it looks good for us.
Speaker 3:So suddenly the, the, the forestry, get this back that there's like 4 000 deer, but actually there was maybe only a thousand deer. So their numbers look like the deer population's out of control and and it's the same damn, it's probably the same around the rest of the country. People account. Unless we have an actual proper count, there are going to be the super herds that you see. You see them on the TV, around Peterborough places and stuff like that. Super herds are fallow. But that again goes down to the land they're crossing and the stalkers that are on it. If they're already there to make money by shooting big bucks, they don't want to shoot anything else.
Speaker 2:Exactly yeah, big bucks, they don't want to shoot anything else. Exactly yeah, and that's a problem. I mean, I think you know it, it is. In this day and age with apps and all the rest of it, how easy would it be, just for you know a government body, to sort out, sort out an app, sign up, you put hunter's number in. When you shoot something, you record it. You don't have to necessarily say you know the exact location it just, it just gives you a number.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly oh, how many are being shot. It's. It just seems mad that that isn't the case well, there you go.
Speaker 3:That's the wild order part two. You, yeah you, you create the app and off you go watch this face, yeah so you kind of touched on it. Your target audience really for this is is people that have never been in, never been out, stalking or just showing interest or what want to understand where their meat comes from yeah, I mean I don't want to pigeonhole myself too much.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know our door is open if, if somebody is new to hunting or they are a seasoned veteran, they are welcome. I would like to think that they will learn something, however skilled they are. Um, we have had hunters like experienced hunters come along and that's great, okay. Uh, you know the people that we work with the sam thompsons and the estate crew there and this other estate on the west coast and the mats and alex's and marks that that make up the wild order all bring their their little bit of expertise, and so I think there is something to learn for everybody.
Speaker 2:But, having said that, I really the wild order is there to engage people in hunting and to boost the hunting profile, and for that to work, we need new blood coming in all the time and and to sort of not necessarily be like disciples, but just to be engaged in nature and to be engaged in what you and I do every day and um, so, yeah, my, our target audience is is people, novice hunters basically, or people that want to learn more about butchery, because that's another thing that's lacking massively in in the, in the deer world. You know, you could. You could be a great hunter, but you know you might completely mess up. You, you know when you, when you get the animal home. Yeah, yeah, I would absolutely try and advocate turning that animal into like really high quality meat as well.
Speaker 3:I suppose, yeah, cause a lot of people you find that I've had them. They've come out to Deerstalk and they're like, oh, but I'll just watch a YouTube video. And it's like a YouTube video really doesn't give you the hands-on experience. It's better to be with somebody. So I remember when I first learned to butcher um, and it was literally having a friend there and he's like you do this, this, this. He was self-taught. But to be honest, now it's like you, you learn your own route. You can break a deer down, you can get the right cuts out of it and away you go yeah, and I think you know everybody has their own methods, yeah, to breaking down a haunch or skinning.
Speaker 2:Everybody's got their own little tricks that that helps them. But what we like to do is just to give people the fundamentals so that they're they're going home with a decent amount of knowledge where they they can either buy an animal in skin from a local stalker or game dealer or whatever, uh, or they can, you know, get a farmer's license and shoot one and they can take a home in there and then they can be somewhat knowledgeable about how to go about breaking it down into a really high quality food product. Because when I first became a hunter I had no idea.
Speaker 3:I got my first uh fallow doe home and I thought I better watch some youtube yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, because you, you've got a deer there and it's like it's not really a big rabbit anymore.
Speaker 2:I can't skin it by like peeling it down the middle and putting it over my knee, kind of thing exactly, yeah yeah, that's really good yeah that's a kind of big aspect of what we do is is um, we like to see people go from the range all the way through to taking an animal to the larder and then, depending where we are, you know, around a table, butchering down their animal or another animal trimming up back straps, rolling shoulders fantastic, fantastic.
Speaker 3:So yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree and I think I think that's the thing I've offered people in the past like to come out for I ran things on facebook and and instagram and it's like come for a free, free stalk if you do this and stuff like that, and it was amazing the uptake and people just coming out. But it's to give them the whole experience. It's like, well, we'll go to the range, we'll do this, you can shoot it, but I'm going to make you watch me or you can take the leg off or do this part. And it's the whole bit that they actually get hands-on. Because I think commercial stalking, unfortunately, is very much exactly what it is. It's commercial stalking.
Speaker 3:You shoot the animal, it disappears into the back of a motor and it's gone. You never see it. Yeah, whereas I think the whole process is and we've had it on the hill this year lots of people have said, wow, you've given us so much information, you've explained the growl, it. You've pulled out the intestines and looked at the mesenteric glands and trying to explain everything to them. They're like I've never, never heard about that before and it's it. It's great, it's all part of the process, it's part of the day on the hill, isn't it really?
Speaker 2:absolutely, and people want that knowledge. You know, in my experience is that you know, if you keep that knowledge for them, that they don't know it's there, yeah, so they're not're not hungry for it. As soon as you start imparting that kind of knowledge, people really engage and that's um, and that's cool when, when people really go all right. Yeah, I didn't know that I've shot loads of deer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly yeah, but they've never, never been explained. Because everybody ask what are you doing? Because they my thing is intestines out straight on top of the stomach, lay them out and everybody's like what you're looking for and you kind of start explaining and it's just one of those things. It's only five seconds really, to just tell them and go yeah, I'm just checking the health of the deer at the end of the day before we drag it off down the hill. But it's stuff like that. Every day is a school day and it doesn't matter. I think you you touched on it earlier on it doesn't matter who you are, you will always learn something new and you can be the most seasoned hunter If you're open to it. You'll see somebody else do a technique and you'll be like I, like that, I really do. That's a really simple thing. That suddenly, oh, I've done it this way and I've always tried to explain to people when you're skinning stuff and things like that. You watch some guy and he does it really quickly.
Speaker 3:If it takes you half an hour, it doesn't matter. It's not a rush, it's not a race that once it's dead, it's dead yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:It's about the finished product, isn't it? And it's about giving it. You know, it's the the right amount of respect when, when you're when handling it in the larder. Yeah, I, I picked up so much because I'm hungry for knowledge, because I'm so shit at school. Uh, now I'm older and maybe slightly wiser, I, I'm trying to make up for lost time, so I'm like always trying to learn and when I go to scotland, you know it's, these guys are doing it as you are, way more than I am and, um, yeah, I'm always picking up like awesome little tricks. I think that was that was worth the three weeks up here, exactly, yeah, it's just that, yeah yeah, one, one moment, one bit of knife work and something like that.
Speaker 3:You're like. That made life so much easier and it's so simple. So, talking now about the future, what's the future plans for the wild order?
Speaker 2:good question. Uh, as I think I mentioned a bit earlier, it's it's kind of constantly evolving or needs to constantly evolve. Uh, the hungry beast of instagram keeps us on our toes obviously the whole time. Uh, I think the the future really looks um much like what we're doing now, but just pushing out into more, more areas in terms of, uh, wild food. So maybe obviously we're deer specialists at the moment and we will, we will stay deer specialists. You know we're going to add in other aspects. So we're going to start working with an estate on the west coast of scotland uh, this year and we're going to add in some free diving um okay and some fishing, which kind of just takes the pressure off.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know the deer stuff and maybe encompasses a slightly different clientele that will be interested in the deer stuff, but they're also interested in, you know, a bit of foraging, a bit of fishing, maybe more cooking, um, and we're calling that the adventure series.
Speaker 2:So that will be more adventure based week up on the west coast, uh, and we'll include wild goats and things like that in there. But we're fantastic, we'll also be doing on every course, you will be learning how to skin and butcher. That's kind of the fundamentals will stay true throughout, uh, and then just plugging away, boosting the, the image of hunting, as I, as I like to say, um, and just building on us. So you know, we've got the hunts experience, we're going to have this adventure series and we've got our day courses and then we also work in suffolk on a, on a smaller estate uh, called wickham vineyards. Okay, we do our introduction to hunting course there, and so we we're just going to build on on the current foundation but have more of more of the courses, uh, and and and more cooking courses in the future okay, yeah, yeah, I think I think that's the thing.
Speaker 3:Everybody gets a piece of venison and then they're like what do I do with it? Do I just mince it? And a lot of people, I think they mince and dice a lot of venison and it's like you could do so much more with it. Why, why, why would you do that?
Speaker 2:yeah, and there are so many there. You know, obviously there are so many things you can do with venison, but also so many cool cooking techniques that we can use as well, like ground ovens and acid doors and fire cooking and all the rest of it. So putting those amongst our courses is probably the future, because it makes it more accessible and I think it grows our audience and, at the end of the day, that's what we're aiming for.
Speaker 3:Fantastic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is exciting. I'm going out to Scotland actually next month with Alex to to recce this, the state properly and to to get things nailed down and then we'll launch the course, hopefully at the end of March, and so keep your eyes peeled.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. Well, as I say, what we'll do is make sure that your website's covered on the sort of the brief on the podcast. We'll cover it. We'll put your Instagram handle up there as well so that people can go and see it. But, yeah, it's one of those things. I think that Instagram's a great place and social media can actually work really well if we all work together and we share the right stuff. I know there's some problems at the moment that all the hunters and and anybody's talking about that instagram. If you get something wrong, that's it. You're on the naughty list, um, and we we're kind of being persecuted for actually not actually doing anything bad I know it's madness, we actually can't.
Speaker 2:Uh, we have been put on the naughty list a few times, but we've sort of managed to get off, uh, I think. But we, we can't collaborate with some people now because their accounts are constantly banned, not being shown to new followers, and you know, we need to be careful and make sure, uh, we are being seen, because if we're not being seen, we're not doing any good, right? So no, absolutely, and, and I think, things will change, I think, but it is tough out there for us at the moment.
Speaker 3:It's a weird, weird situation at the moment. I think the the world has has become very much wrapped in cotton, wool and if you, if you go against it, but you can post other rubbish, no problem at all it's not.
Speaker 2:You know, you take a completely innocent picture of a knife on a chopping board and you get banned. But then, you know, you go to the explore page. You see somebody being hit by a car and they're perfectly allowed, yeah what? Where's? Where's the sense?
Speaker 3:in that it doesn't make any sense, but it makes no, no sense at all, but I suppose it's one of those things. Yeah it, people must have a sick sense of humor if that's allowed, and uh, yeah, it's just. It's quite sad really. But yeah, processing of food and where food comes from is a is a banned topic. Or mentioning a rifle or a knife, but yeah, as you say, something falling off a roof or hit by a car or something like that, yeah, crack on, we'll just make that up.
Speaker 2:It's going back to that whole civil, like that conversation around what is civilized and that you know procure being out in the countryside or in the mountains or wherever you know working hard honestly to forage food or to fish or to hunt is is as civilized as it gets as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, and all that other rubbish that you see on instagram is, you know, not civilized.
Speaker 3:But hey, I'm not gonna rant but if, if you can send one person away from your course or I can send one person back home that sits in a pub in london with 10 friends around them and they can explain because you've given them the information to explain it correctly it might get another two interested. Well, that's another two that absolutely work, and that's all you're really after, isn't it really?
Speaker 2:yeah, and at the end of the day, what? What we? The aim is that we want to stop hunting being a dirty word yeah and absolutely and I think you know the tide is turning, but it's slow and I think it will.
Speaker 3:It will take a bit longer, but I think the yeah that currently obviously the buzzword was being a vegan um, but I think that's changing because people have have suddenly realized that actually it's not brilliant for your health. There is, there are drawbacks to it definitely, definitely.
Speaker 2:In fact, the first podcast I did was a vegan podcast, believe it or not okay uh, it's called I'm gonna forget, which is embarrassing. It's called something like conversations with conservationists or something anyway. Uh, he was vegan and he wanted me on his podcast because he had now health problems and so he had to go back on his belief system and start eating meat because he was suffering because of it. So I, you know nothing against vegans, but just eat wild meat exactly it did.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's not, and there's nothing better than it. You know, as we've. We tell anybody that listens to this and they all know anyway. But yeah, wild meat is has the best life, to be honest, doesn't it exactly? Yeah, yeah is there anything else you want to mention?
Speaker 2:but before we sort of draw this to a close, it's been a broad-ranging chat so far, hasn't it, I think I, you know, I feel, as always, I'm very uh grateful to given the opportunity to talk about the wild order. It's something that I'm deeply passionate about and, uh, I hope that we can keep sort of engaging people in in what we we love. So, um, I think we've covered a lot and, yeah, just if you're interested, have a look at our website or, you know, drop me a line on Instagram or something.
Speaker 3:No worries, I'm sure. Well, as I say, I'll make sure all the links are there and everybody be there. So hopefully that's good. And then, yeah, we'll plug away and we'll put some information up and I'm sure you'll get some more responses from it.
Speaker 2:That's great. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3:No, no problem at all. Thank you ever so much for coming on.
Speaker 2:Awesome, see you around, cheers.
Speaker 3:So thanks for listening. If you found anything in that interesting, obviously go and have a look at what they offer and remember it's not just completely for novices. They do actually offer days. If you wanted to go there and you're a seasoned hunter as I say, every day is a school day you might actually learn something or a different technique. Anyway, the next podcast we've got coming up, we're actually going to jump across the channel and we are going to chat with a swedish huntress and have a look at some of the the differences of hunting out in sweden compared to the uk. So stay tuned and hopefully that one will be out within a couple of weeks.