75 A Veteran Tries Deer Stalking For The First Time And Discovers Why The Woods Quiet The Mind

A fire, a spaniel, and a late‑December reset set the tone for a day that turned into a lesson in patience, ethics, and focus. We brought Jacob from Lockwood Smocks out for his first civilian deer stalk and used the whole journey—range to hillside—to unpack how a clean, humane shot is built long before a trigger breaks.

On the range, we compare military ball ammo with hunting rounds, why polymer tips matter, and what tolerances do to consistency. Jacob meets a new trigger, a moderated .308, and quad sticks, learning how breathing becomes the only motion left. From there, we step into the field with a plan: read the wind, move slow, and scan dense gorse with thermal without leaning on it as a crutch. We talk tech versus tradition, including why thermal stays in the truck on classic hill days, and what dawn/dusk “thermal crossover” means for sight pictures.

The heart of the story happens under copper leaves. We set an ambush, wait out the ruminants, and line up a shot that doesn’t land. It’s a clean miss—no sign of strike, no blood—followed by a disciplined check and a bigger takeaway: the surge of adrenaline, the humility of a living target, and the moment Jacob realizes forty‑five minutes have passed without a single thought of his phone. That silence is the secret many stalkers know—fieldcraft as relief and respect.

We also test gear the honest way. Jacob’s British‑made wax and cordura designs face twigs, thorns, and weather, showing how waterproofing, quiet fabrics, poppers, and low‑shine finishes earn their keep. We explore why keeping manufacturing in the UK supports local jobs and trust in the kit you stake your day on. Along the way we cover deer management, forestry regeneration, broadside shot placement, and the field‑to‑fork ethic that makes wild venison more than a meal.

If you value real‑world skills, ethical hunting, and kit that works when it counts, this one’s for you. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs a quiet mind and a good walk, and leave a review to help more curious listeners find us.

Chapters

• 0:26 Host’s Holiday Update & Advocacy
• 2:31 Sponsor Messages & Setup
• 4:16 Range Brief: Ammo, Ethics, Safety
• 12:07 On The Sticks: First Civilian Shots
• 20:36 Food, Field To Fork, And Respect
• 28:02 Military Mindset Vs Deer Stalking
• 36:20 Tradition, Tech, And Terminology
• 44:22 Lunch, Gear Talk, And Smock Design
• 52:16 Into The Gully: Wind, Thermal, Plan
• 1:02:05 Reading Terrain And Deer Behavior
• 1:14:48 Tech Costs, When To Use Thermal
• 1:22:57 Ambush Patience And Shot Setup
• 1:38:40 The Miss, Adrenaline, And Follow‑Up
• 1:47:35 Mind Quiet: Why Stalking Heals
• 1:55:07 Jacket Field Test & Takeaways
• 2:06:43 Wrap‑Up, Gratitude, Next Steps

Transcript

SPEAKER_05: 0:26

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Outdoor Giving Podcast. I am still recording this, sat next to a fire with a spaniel curled up next to me. It's uh it's not cold for December. Uh there has been a slight delay in getting this one out, mainly because it was due to come out before Christmas. Unfortunately, due to a family emergency and some issues arising from that, everything has been kind of put off by about two or three weeks. Anyway, well Christmas has now passed, so hopefully Santa was good to you and brought you lots of the things you wanted. You've all probably eaten far too much food, drunk far too much, and are ready to kick start your January resolutions of going to the gym, doing some more walking, getting on and doing all those other things. If you've been out for your Boxing Day shoot or hunt, hopefully that's been good. Could well be the last hunt if the government gets its way, trying to ban, finally ban the last part, which is trail hunting. Hopefully our petitions will work. Another pressing thing is if you haven't seen it, sign the petition for the shotgun. Changes to the shotgun law where they want to put shotguns as a section one firearm. You need to get on and sign that petition. We need to stop this. We cannot have that happening. It will be an absolute disaster. It's another niggling way of eating away at the sports we enjoy. So we are in that weird gap just between Christmas and New Year. Hopefully, you will all be doing something exciting, and some of you may have been out shooting. I know I was out on Boxing Day taking a young lad, he was 18, for his first ever deer stalk, and it was fantastic his father came along on his estate and he shared the experience of the boy getting his his first taste of deer stalking. And I've already had messages going, when can we go out again? So it's absolutely fantastic to be able to share that experience and bring people bring that passion out in the youngsters and the next generation. Who are we talking to in this podcast? We're actually talking to Jacob from Lockwood Smokes. If you don't know who Lockwood Smokes are, go and have a look. They're all over social media, Instagram, Facebook, you'll find them there. And we did one of those in-the-field recordings where we actually this time we talked about his product and stuff like that. We talked about his background, we did a bit of stalking, and um hopefully you'll enjoy it. I'm gonna say there is some uh some strong language near the end, but I've decided to leave it in because I think it's all part of the reaction of after taking shots and etc etc, that actually just gives you that real feel and passion for the person we're talking to. But um I'm not gonna bother hanging about. It is a long podcast, so uh hopefully you enjoy it. Anyway, let's have a quick word from our sponsors and then we'll get started. The Outdoor Given Podcast is proudly sponsored by the Shooting and Hunting Academy, an online training platform and UK registered learning provider that provides a host of accredited and nationally available courses and masterclasses delivered by leading industry experts.

Rachel @#Stile: 3:36

Hi guys, it's Rachel here from Style, the new social app for field sports and farming. Join our countryside community on the App Store or Google Play. Just search Style Country. Enjoy the show!

SPEAKER_05: 4:16

But what we're actually gonna do at the moment is we are heading down to the range because we're gonna take him out stalking, which is something he's not done. So I'm just gonna go, he's got firearms experience being a soldier and all the rest of it, but we're gonna take him down and just get him set up on my stalking rifle, make sure he can shoot, I'm sure he can. Let's hope. Yeah, exactly. We were just discussing that over a cup of coffee, but um, yeah, we'll see how it goes.

SPEAKER_10: 4:42

So, yeah, I was I was just gonna say, yeah, thank you for that uh sort of brief introduction there. And it is it's yeah, it's you know, when you said to me about coming up, I was super excited, and like I said to you over that coffee, it was sort of two Mondays ago. I shot my last, what I think will be the last round I ever fire as a soldier, right? Which um was a 556 at 100 metres, and um and then this will be the first round I fire on a civilian weapon.

SPEAKER_05: 5:13

So there you go, then we're gonna we're gonna shoot a uh a 7.62 at 100 metres. Yes. So there you go, a NATO cartridge at uh in a civilian range this time.

SPEAKER_10: 5:24

Yeah, so where do you get the rounds for? Because I you know you saw me pick up that empty cartridge, and I was just looking at the um the coding on the bottom.

SPEAKER_05: 5:32

So yeah, and like what you're used to with your Radway Green and all the rest of it, um, we've got multiple different manufacturers that obviously make cases now. So that one I think you just grabbed was probably an RWS, which is a German German manufacturer. Yeah, so the the the case stamps basically we can go to any any firearms dealer or gun shop and um and just buy ammunition. Yeah, what yours all comes out, I think military stuff will all have a batch number, and 90% of it comes out of uh Radway Green, I think, which was the the the military reloading centre, yeah, and all your batch numbers and serial numbers are something crazy because everything gets checked out and checked back in.

SPEAKER_10: 6:17

Yeah. So I know when um because I told you I went on a sniper's carter course, which I failed the long-range shooting for, but um I remember when we are we jumping out here. Yeah, we'll get out of here. Jump out now? Go for it. I remember I was saying um when we were doing you sort of do a lot of theory stuff, um, a lot of theory lessons on the course, yeah, and they were saying uh for the 762, the sharpshooter rifles, the rounds for that they come like the first X amount in a batch go to the sharpshooters, yeah, and then the ones following on from that then go to for GPMG ammunition or something, it's something to do with the grain or it's the quality, so a lot of military ammunition is not built to the highest quality, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 7:07

Shock horror. It it well it's no 90. You can get a lot of it, like I've shot a lot of old military ammunition because you can we can buy it for range days, but the the just the the way the process is working, so that the first stuff that comes off the batch, the dies are all tight, good, ready to go. So you get a nice tight quality bullet. After that, when it's knocking out tens of thousands of rounds, tolerances go out, yeah, yeah. The type of powder going in, it just bum bum bum. So you don't get the same level of quality. So here we go. So these are these are your 308 rounds, these are an RWS speed tip, they'll be different to what you're used to.

SPEAKER_10: 7:46

Yeah, I was literally just about to ask you what's with the tip?

SPEAKER_05: 7:49

So these are what's called a ballistic tip, it's basically a polymer, a little piece of plastic in the top, and the rounds that yeah, yeah. So the rounds you shoot will be what's called ball ammunition, and Geneva Convention states that all bullets for uh shooting people have to be full metal jackets, yeah, yeah. So you can't do fatal wounding. British police in internal ammunition, so if we've got something at home, a dispute, they're allowed to use expanding ammunition. But the Geneva Convention stated that all ammunition had to be non-fatal, yeah, yeah. So it passes straight through the body. Your 5.56, your 308, or your 762 had to be a full ball jacket. So it basically would just go through, whistles through, so that you'd injure the person, you may slow them down, but in theory, but if you break up inside the body, whereas the damage with a hunting round is it's designed to expand. Fatal expansion. Basically, that round that polymer tip is like a detonator, it pushes in and it causes the bullet to just blow out big exit wound, massive disruption. Uh animal drops very quickly. So that's why we have different ones. Obviously, yeah, these are a polymer tip with a little plastic, sometimes they just have a soft bit of lead on the top. It's so that as it hits bone, flesh, the energy transfer causes the bullet to mush.

SPEAKER_10: 9:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what we're gonna do is you don't just injure the animal and then it's there suffering. That's an immediate key.

SPEAKER_05: 9:20

Exactly. The key we're trying to do when we're out hunting is we're trying to make sure that there is no unwanted suffering of anything we're we're we're hunting, basically. So everything we can do to make sure that that issue goes away, that's what we're gonna do. What we'll do is we'll take a target up to the range first. Uh we'll set one of those up because that's gonna be the key. It's it'll be a hundred meter shot. Uh we'll just get you set up so that uh yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_10: 9:49

That's what yeah, it's um it's like when you see the sort of hollow points that uh the yanks behind that for the nine mils. Yeah, yeah. So I remember seeing um a video and it was like um it's a hollow point round that was designed to break into six little different pieces. It literally had, and they were like spiked, so it was like a spiked hollow point that had six individual shards on it that and then the the the butt of the round almost was at circular, and then the the other had like sort of six pins on it, and it showed a I remember seeing like um like a computer graphicised version of what would happen to it when it on impact and it just blew it's horrendous a foot wide hole in the back of the bloody prospective target.

SPEAKER_05: 10:34

It is absolutely it it's terrifying.

SPEAKER_10: 10:38

Yanks now are trying to kill stuff, yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05: 10:41

But I found it really interesting, as I was just saying, Geneva Convention said that if we were shooting foreign, we had to shoot with full ball round ammunition, yeah. Whereas if it's domestic, uh our police force, yeah, no problem at all.

SPEAKER_10: 10:54

You can use expanding, you can make a biggest mess you want, and it's like but then again, you you know you think that what other police in the UK you're gonna be firing at? It's counter-terrorism, isn't it? Yeah, pretty much, and you want that, you want that them to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_05: 11:07

You want to stop, you want to stop the situation straight away. So it makes perfect sense. So here we are, we're at as we were saying, this is my range, it is an old world war, well, before world war one rifle range. Um it goes, it did go all the way back to 800 yards, but unfortunately, somebody planted some trees, so you could go all the way back past those trees, and you've still got a firing point.

SPEAKER_10: 11:32

Following that river, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 11:34

So this this was actually halfway down. Uh, it was an old mill pond for the the the works below it. There's a dam at the bottom. Oh really, and all the firing points run along that tree line. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we've changed it slightly, but um we still get a hundred meter.

SPEAKER_10: 11:51

So, what is that the back drop there? That was the I'm guessing we're about to pin this on that. We're about to pin it on the board, exactly. What's that in the distance there?

SPEAKER_05: 12:00

That was the original buttons, that is all boilerplate, and inside that is you'd be used to it is your time what would have been your frame for being.

SPEAKER_10: 12:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for targets up, targets down.

SPEAKER_05: 12:12

Yeah, little door in the side of it. Yeah, and it's crazy because you go up there, and there's like a little window in the side of the boilerplate where obviously somebody stick an arm out and wave a flag to say don't shoot. But it's terrifying when you go up there and you look at all the shots that obviously fell low and gone through or whatever. And now there's well, that this ammunition that we're shooting, it happily goes through seven mil plate steel. Yeah, it's quite terrifying.

SPEAKER_10: 12:42

Yeah, that'll do it.

SPEAKER_05: 12:43

I scared a boy the other week uh when he was up here shooting my steel gongs and ended up putting putting a bullet straight through it.

SPEAKER_10: 12:53

Yeah. No, that's cool. Let's head back. Yeah, let's get back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. PDSI. So it is like looking at this river, it just reminds me of Brecon. Yes. So like whenever we get a training at Brecon and you're doing sort of blank or live ranges, like you know, LFTT, um, so live fire transitional training or whatever the hell it is. Um whenever the the DS or the directing staff set up a range, it's usually in a valley like this. Yep, and it's usually set up with the end position being on the other side of a river in such a way that you have to normally you're gonna get wet.

SPEAKER_05: 13:36

I've got a nice bridge, so you don't have to get wet, you can cross the bridge. But it is it's always one of those things. The reason for the valley is it's it makes it inherently safe. You're putting the great backstop in straight away, so instantly you're already making sure that any course of fire potentially has no ability to travel. And that that's the key.

SPEAKER_10: 14:00

You're not up on a hill where if somebody it's gonna end up going over and out and potentially into a civilian population.

SPEAKER_05: 14:07

It's always funny talking to somebody about bullets and they're like, Oh, what's the range on it? And I go, do three kilometres, yeah, and they're like, What? And they're like, if you get that on the right trajectory and you squeeze that trigger, three kilometres away, that bullet, maybe even further, is gonna come down somewhere.

SPEAKER_09: 14:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_05: 14:24

And people don't get that, they're just like, what really? I don't believe you. It's like, well, that's ballistics for you at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_10: 14:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're shooting most like um, and I think that's why I failed the 900 long-range shooting on the snow card I went onto. Because then out at that range, you're then looking at working out the the spin of the earth, heat, um, humidity, wind direction, all that sort of stuff, and it's so much to take, you know. Yes, exactly. What the effects on the round as it travels um through the air, you know.

SPEAKER_05: 15:01

Okay, so gonna be slightly different to anything you've dealt with before. Yes, this is a 308 uh Seiko rifle. Uh, you asked about ear defenders, we don't need them, we've got a sound moderator on the top of it. It's got a German Steiner Ranger 8 scope on it. The beauty of this scope is it's zeroed at 100 meters, and similar to what you would have done, talk about levels of clicks if we needed to go further. I can just twist this one up to like two or three, 200-300 metres, no problem at all. It's a bolt action rifle, and unlike what you're normally used to doing, probably lying down and shooting prone or shooting off a bench, we're actually gonna get you to shoot off the sticks.

SPEAKER_10: 15:46

So I fired off sticks on the sniper carder, but it was literally you had to make your own sticks. Okay, so you got three broom handles, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sniper taped and put elastic round them, and then you had a um because that was gonna be one of my first questions. Do you have um a bean bag? But I can see that it's got a rubberized mount on the top there, which acts as the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_05: 16:09

So I'm just gonna set the sticks up for your I'm 5'8. Well, I go roughly, so the sticks basically should come up just to about your chin, slightly higher, no problem. The reason for these sticks is they're quad sticks, and what they actually do, the beauty of these is they take away all of your sideways movement. The only movement you'll have on these sticks is the vertical, which basically is your breathing at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_11: 16:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 16:38

So, what I'll do is get you in behind that rifle. Just have a look, make sure that you're comfortable, it fits in your shoulder. Happy days. Move that to the other side. I'll tell you what, tuck it in just there. Oh, that'll do. So, target acquire if you can. So, if you need to move it, you've got left and right movement on the front here.

SPEAKER_10: 17:08

Can you see that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, this won't interfere. You can adjust this as much as you want.

SPEAKER_05: 17:14

At the moment, that obviously just gives us ocular zoom. You're comfortable? What I'd probably say is we won't go that high. I would probably be putting you, what are we actually talking on? About 12. So as long as you can see roughly the black dot and you cover it with the with the black dot, we're gonna do something creative here. We're gonna put the light on for you.

SPEAKER_10: 17:40

No, no, no, that's absolutely Bob on.

SPEAKER_05: 17:42

I'm just yeah, you happy with that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool, right.

SPEAKER_10: 17:46

Good side picture.

SPEAKER_05: 17:48

No rounds in it at the moment. We're gonna push the bolt forward. The rifle, in theory, would now be live. Red dot means it's live. So line yourself up when you're when you're comfortable. I want you to put the finger on the trigger and just squeeze the trigger. It'll allow you to feel the trigger weight.

SPEAKER_10: 18:04

Yeah, yeah. So that's safety.

SPEAKER_05: 18:06

Safety, yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 18:07

That's off. What is this on the other side?

SPEAKER_05: 18:10

That allows us to take the bolt out.

SPEAKER_10: 18:11

Right, okay. So that's a bolt release. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 18:14

So the right this rifle, the beauty of it is with safety, we can leave the rifle safe, press this button here, and I can actually open the bolt so it can never go off. The Seiko is quite nice at that, that it has that ability. So when you're ready, you put your finger on it, roll the safety off because you've got the safety on at the moment. Push forward, align the target, bang. Very light.

SPEAKER_10: 18:34

That is that is super light. Can I try that again, please?

SPEAKER_05: 18:36

So pull all the way back, reload. It is a very light hair trigger.

SPEAKER_10: 18:44

Oh, that is nice, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05: 18:45

That's going to be very different to the type of rifle you all use in the show. When you're squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, squeeze, sweet.

SPEAKER_10: 18:51

Well, you should normally a two stage for a yes. Yeah, that is nice. That is cool.

SPEAKER_05: 18:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_10: 18:59

Can I maybe bring these down a tad?

SPEAKER_05: 19:02

Yeah, and almost. So we just Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that better? Yeah, much better. Cool. What we'll do, we'll put some rounds in the magazine, and then we can uh we can get you ready to shoot. Reference for later. It's a lovely pointer rifle.

SPEAKER_11: 19:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 20:02

So you've got no left or right movement as you'd notice. You're only ver only up down.

unknown: 20:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 20:11

That is bloody smart.

SPEAKER_05: 20:12

Right. I'm opening the bolt.

SPEAKER_10: 20:16

How many rounds go into that magazine?

SPEAKER_05: 20:18

Take five.

SPEAKER_10: 20:19

Right.

SPEAKER_05: 20:20

More than enough for what we're doing. She's live, the safety is on. When you're ready, acquire the target and uh squeeze the trigger. You're on the target.

SPEAKER_10: 21:37

That's actually all right, isn't it? What was that like?

SPEAKER_05: 22:06

You can shoot. You can shoot very well indeed.

SPEAKER_10: 22:10

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05: 22:11

That is lovely. Let's go up and get that target.

SPEAKER_10: 22:13

Yeah, boom.

SPEAKER_05: 22:14

We'll take this with us. But uh you might want to keep that when that's the first civilian round you do. Really?

SPEAKER_10: 22:20

Wow. Oh my god, honestly, I I don't think you realise how much this means. Like that's alright. Wow. That oh my god, what a lovely weapon that is to fire. It's different, isn't it? Oh my god, yeah, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05: 22:36

So there's there's a huge difference between military firearms which are designed for one purpose.

SPEAKER_10: 22:41

Oh I like that. I like that.

SPEAKER_05: 22:43

British made sling. This one's not a few. Yeah, yeah, wow. Keeps the rifle up and free.

SPEAKER_10: 22:49

I did wonder what that spare toggle on the on your back was for. So there's a boy thought you just had it for comfort.

SPEAKER_05: 22:55

No, so there's a lad called Ben uh from Deer Central, uh, and he makes a all English or all British made leather sling. This is it was a similar design to this. This is the old Z type, but I'll show you his later. Again, similar idea to you, manufacturing process, keep it in the UK, and that's what he's done. So, but yeah, this basically it when I'm out stalking, I'm hands-free now. Yeah, two hands to do stuff. I've not got to worry about the rifle or anything like that.

SPEAKER_10: 23:26

It just I mean, it's something like that for the snipers would be incredible. Yes, it's such a pain. So you have a valise or whatever, but then when you like going in, I mean I can see how stable that is on you now.

SPEAKER_05: 23:38

Oh, I can crawl, I can run, I've got everything. This rifle isn't going anywhere, and it's quick release, it's simply reach up here, press the button, bump, the rifle's off, we're ready to check.

SPEAKER_10: 23:50

That is the the oh the recoil on that is and that's a that's a 308 surprisingly minimal.

SPEAKER_05: 23:58

So the big thing that makes the recoil less in most modern rifles is the suppressor. So that takes away the muzzle flip, and when the rifle's really well balanced and set up properly, uh you you get very little recoil.

SPEAKER_10: 24:13

Yeah, because it's like when I've even with me sort of S8, I suppose it's I kind of try and hold like firm with my right hand but sort of loose, yeah. Do you know what I mean? And I was expecting that to really kick into my shoulder, so I loosened right off and it it kind of just didn't.

SPEAKER_05: 24:32

It doesn't, does it? But the S8 obviously the SA8 is using a lot more because it's self-loading, you're using a lot of the gas gases to do a lot more work, so you're getting a bit more of a kick. Alright, so you had one shot off that was off, but other than these were the last two, yeah, boom. That was the first one, yeah. Yeah, no, not the first one. That was the second, and that was the third, yeah, yeah. So we'll take that off as a souvenir for that. And that's almost you're still within the kill zone, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that that's pretty much on, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. If you if you were doing your deer stalking assessment, you'd pass through the days. Yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 25:12

Wow. Yeah, bloody heck. Oh my honestly, that is yeah, that is that is real cool. Yeah, I uh I like that. Yeah. I think you might have just found me my hobby when I when I get out of the army, you know.

SPEAKER_05: 25:36

Do you know what? It's it's one of those things that actually it's not about the killing, and I think that's what I want to. I think we can explain that as we go through the day.

SPEAKER_10: 25:49

Yeah, but you know what I said to you earlier, it's like my dream with this company is to be able to afford to be able to go and enjoy horse sport, yeah, but then have a little small holding where I can have my cows and my pigs and my chickens. And I'd always thought I'd love to go shooting so I can get just meat that I know for a fact. Because even when I'm gonna be raising, you know, having my own beef and pork and chicken, you know, I'm still gonna be having to buy substitute feed for them that's coming from somewhere that's been processed in somewhere. Yeah, yeah. But at least with you know, wild game that's only eaten the ground. That is, you know, that is the cli like there's such a health movement these days, isn't there?

SPEAKER_05: 26:34

Well, when it's when you come down the road with that venison and you cook that up tonight or whatever, you'll be like, I want more. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 26:43

And you know, I do try and go to farm shops when I can and get meat. Um just the other week I went to met a guy that runs like he's got a Porsche club and they meet up and do drives or whatever. I went and meet him at met him at um one of their meeting spots, um, and there was a butcher's just down the way, and I went and went in there and spent like 80 quid and got our meat for a couple of weeks, you know what I mean? And it's yeah, that is just it's just still one of those things though.

SPEAKER_05: 27:10

You haven't had I think the being able to go out and know that what you've harvested, you've done it all yourself from the beginning to the end, and it people look at it and go, Yeah, oh you went and shot something, but actually, squeezing the trigger is such a two-second incident. Anyone you've just shot a paper target, we replace the paper target with a deer, and the actual shot takes no time at all. The process of getting ourselves into that position to be able to take that shot, then to recover that animal, treat that animal with the greatest respect, and then get that animal onto your dinner table to feed your friends and family. That's all the hard work. I could I could literally I would put money on it, probably could get anybody squeezing the trigger and hitting the target. That's no problem at all.

SPEAKER_09: 28:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 28:11

When the animal looks at you, that's when you have to that's the bit that has to click with you. You're about to take the life of an absolutely stunning creature. Now, you've had military training, which probably changes it differently because the whole well, the whole thing about military training is your target is always the enemy who is coming to do things, whereas actually, when you look at that deer, and it always gets people, is they look at it and they they see it because it looks back at them or something like that. And as long as you can come to terms, or when you go up to that animal after you've done what you've done, and you can be at peace and thank it, that's it.

SPEAKER_10: 28:52

And I and I think it's so what you just touched on there, the the army side of it. I think it's you know, what are the two the two differences there for this this type of shooting? We're going and providing food, and it's sort of going a bit more back to our primal ways of going out hunting and providing food because we didn't have you know, 600 years ago there wasn't a Tesco's, although they did have markets and stuff, but then this is it doesn't really go back that far, I think it only goes back probably the last 150 years.

SPEAKER_05: 29:22

We still we still did it, we provided a lot of food for the family that yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 29:27

Um well pre-industrially, yeah, but then but then in the military side of it, it's you know, it's I was speaking about this on a on another podcast recently. It's like when you're in training, you get taught brotherhood, you know, it's your your man left and right of you. You you need to know all your drills because you are protecting the man left and right of you. So, like I said to you when I walked down here, it reminded me of Brecon and doing our sort of pairs-fire manoeuvre up the thing. It's you know, you're up and you run, but you've got to trust your man to the left or right of you, he's putting down sufficient suppressing fire on the enemy so you can move without getting killed. Exactly. And that's where so then it's like you know, in the heat of the bat, and thankfully, you know, I never was in a situation because I joined too late. I was never in a situation where I had to, you know, point a weapon in in anger at someone, but um, but it's you know, if I did, it's I'm doing that for the sake of my brother either side of me. Yeah, and that's the difference.

SPEAKER_05: 30:29

That is the difference, it's that yes. So the deer stalking is you're out using all those skills and knowledge you've got to keep yourself out of sight, and potentially if you're guiding or you've got somebody with you, you're making sure that the person with you is the similar idea, but nothing's ever going to be shooting back at you trying to kill you. But it's still the same, I think the same idea works in both ways. You're still carrying something that can do great damage. Yeah, yeah. You have a you have a tool. I I notice you keep calling it a weapon, but we in the shoot no in the in in the shooting world, the weapon has the wrong connotations, and I think in this day and age, people talk about weapons and well, it's got that negative connotation, it's got that negative connotation. Whenever a weapon comes up, it's in the press and it's always a negative side. But if we just talk about it as a firearm or a gun, actually, yeah, it's it's normalizing that with the mut the conversation I had just before you arrived with my mother with my mother-in-law was she's like, but gun crime and and and firearms are dangerous. And I'm like, a car's dangerous, there's probably more people injured or run over with vehicles than there are with firearms. The problem is the press take firearms and let's call it weapons to the highest level and they make it stand out. Whereas actually they don't say, Oh, yeah, this child was run over by this car travelling through a village at 20 miles an hour. Yeah, they'll go, some guy's lost the plot and he's gone on a rampage with a gun.

SPEAKER_11: 32:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 32:01

Okay, that's fine. It's one guy, let's not tar everybody. These are fantastic tools that in the right hands do very good things.

SPEAKER_10: 32:10

But yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm not even gonna go down there. No, I know, I know. But it's I I was I was I was gonna say, you know, it's like if all of a sudden everyone starts getting firearms licenses and then going out and feeding themselves, that's the best. Then the supermarkets ain't making the money, are they?

SPEAKER_05: 32:25

Well, there's all there's always that side to look at it, exactly. But there's definitely more people interested this day and age in wanting to know where their food comes from. That doesn't necessarily mean they're all gonna go out and be hunters, right? But if they understand it and come and do what we're doing today, just this process, you've got the education.

SPEAKER_10: 32:49

That you know, that exact thing, people want to know where their food are coming from, it's the exact reason I've stood with you right now. Because I started a company that's you know, I was adamant from the beginning, I didn't really expect it to turn into what it was, so I was like, Oh no, I'll only do British manufacturing. So when they were like, Oh, we'll send it overseas, and that's why it took me so long to get started. It's the amount of factories I was like, Yeah, we can do the finishing here, we can do this here, and I was like, No, no, no, I want it fully British made because I didn't expect it to turn into what it is, but because I've done that, is why it's in just over a year. I'm now signed off the army and I'm leaving Flippin on the 6th of March next year. Yeah, it's because people give a damn these days.

SPEAKER_05: 33:30

There's definitely a new generation coming through that actually want to champion yeah, the the home. I wouldn't call it the homemade, but I'd say the homegrown idea or way of looking at it. Well, let's just go back. I know we probably shouldn't look at what our ancestors did, but Britain was the dominant force. Yeah, yeah, but we did everything, didn't we? Let let's hopefully we can have some of that where we get some of that manufacturing back. With with your your business, for example, is already giving people it's keeping small businesses going.

SPEAKER_10: 34:06

Well, it's like I worked out a couple of weeks back, and it's I so the factory in Albury, um, they have now done just over three months of work of from manufacturing my stuff. So that's three months I have three months of local economy I've provided in that area. Yeah, and I think there's 28 seamstresses, and then the the rest of the admin staff and all that, so it's just shy of 35 of them. And it's so I've done three months of and I'm sure it's something like that, um, and that's only like Jacob Maths, but like three months worth of providing in that local economy, that's three months worth of taxes, that's three months of people going to the supermarket, that's three months of bloody people going to the pub or whatever, you know, and it's and I've done that in a short period of time. Whereas if that if I had done all my manufacturing overseas, that three months worth of work would have been that's overseas somewhere. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 35:07

You might have brought it back in for a couple of bits and patches stuck on or something like that.

SPEAKER_10: 35:11

And it's and that is the difference, yeah. You know, that is the difference. That's three months of our economy.

SPEAKER_05: 35:16

Yeah, absolutely fantastic.

SPEAKER_10: 35:18

Only a small piece, but I think you know, in God, what am I gonna be doing in ten years' time?

SPEAKER_05: 35:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 35:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 35:24

We're gonna put right, folks, we're gonna pause this here, we're gonna disappear off, and probably uh, because it's lunchtime, go and grab something to eat, and uh we'll resume in a bit. Probably the next time you hear us, we'll actually be out in the field on a stalk. Nice, right? So we are back, and uh, we've just pulled in, just been home, had some lunch, bacon and egg sandwich, yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 35:49

Lovely bacon and egg sandwich at that.

SPEAKER_05: 35:51

So we're we're now back out to actually start our stalk, but we're gonna talk a little bit more about what we're gonna do because I think that was a question you just asked, and I said just wait until we get mic'ed up. So we're talking about the the aim point on that deer. So, what we're gonna do, what you basically is I want if you imagine the deer standing side onto you, so you can see its whole body, a broadside shot. You're gonna come up the front leg and the simplest way to do it is middle of the body between top and bottom, just put the bullet in the middle of its shoulder.

SPEAKER_02: 36:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 36:26

So that's gonna hit either the top of the heart, it's gonna hit the lungs. The reason we we're doing that is that is a fantastic area to hit because basically the animal will bleed out incredibly quickly, and by bleeding out that fast, the blood flow will disappear from the brain because of the suction and everything going on, and the animal will expire very rapidly. Yeah, it's the most humane position to take the shot. There's a lot of talk about other types of positions to shoot, but for somebody that's never done it before, that is the most ethical place to take that shot. Uh, so just to have a quick chat actually about your jacket. So you're wearing it, it looks like a DPM wax jacket.

SPEAKER_10: 37:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is uh currently one of two. Um, it's a DPM fabric that I when I was at my factory, I saw just an old roll of it sticking out at the top um on their shelves with all the fabrics. And I asked the the guy that runs it, Pat, I says, What is that up there? Anyway, long story short, it's a DPM wax fabric from Halley Stevens, which is it's actually about an hour away from here, Halle Stevens, the factory. Um, and they're a wax fabric uh manufacturer, it's been going since 1869. But the the DPM, so the name is still I'm deciding, but I'm fairly sure I'm gonna call it Tumbledown. And the reason that'll be because at the Falklands War, Mount Tumbledown was the fiercest battle fought by one of the five guards regiments, which was the Scots Guards, yeah. Uh so they fought up Tumbledown, and um and DPM, so Barber obviously are very well known as wax jackets and their sort of country wear, and um they what a lot of people don't know, um a lot of British Army officers used to wear barber jackets back in the day, and they had um Barber actually made a couple of thousands as a one-off of their jackets in this DPM wax from Halle Stevens, the same print, everything.

SPEAKER_05: 38:23

Obviously, this is newer, but it's I was gonna say because this this DPM we won't currently see most people won't see anymore British Army because it's no no longer standard issue, is it?

SPEAKER_10: 38:32

Yeah, it's MTP now. Um yeah, so when I saw it, I thought that would be really cool to make into a wax jacket. So I had two samples done. One uh I ran a competition for my 10,000 followers on my social media, and I gave one the other individual one to someone on there. He actually shoots and um he picks up and does a lot of um sort of clay shooting and that in his spare time. So he's got one and I've got the other, and I'm going to be releasing these at the game fair next year. Okay. So I'm hoping to go to the Ragley Hall and the Scottish Game Fair, um, so that's where they'll be releasing, and name TBC. But um, but I very much want these to become, you know, what we're doing, you know, clothing people out shooting in the countryside, you know.

SPEAKER_05: 39:19

Well, the key about it is I think if we were we were worried, I think that was the main conversation when I first got in contact with you. I asked you about a jacket that could be used for stalking, and you were pretty straight to the point saying you weren't sure about it. Yeah, and that's why this led to you coming up to see me. And the thing about it is to see how it how it behaves, how noisy it is. So, we're actually going to put it out for a test in the field now. We're actually going to stalk in, potentially, we're gonna find something. We might not, it might just be that type of day. That's the nature of going out deer stalking, but we can actually see how this jacket works. Yeah, if you'd got if we'd set out this morning at six o'clock, it was absolutely chucking it down. But to Typical Scottish weather now. Sunshine in blue skies, it's seven degrees. It's just like I just can't write it, really.

SPEAKER_10: 40:06

No, no, you can't, but um, but it was more the cordura that I was worried about, which is a different type of fabric for a bit noisy.

SPEAKER_05: 40:13

We were talking about that isn't because obviously the trousers I've got a pair of Harkeela Pro Hunter, the originals, and they are a cordura type of fabric. It's a slightly lighter grey cordura than your your jacket. But I think to be honest, cordura is a really hard-wearing material, and if it if as I said to you in the beginning, if it's a hundred percent waterproof, the days you need that, for example, you're out picking up or you're on the hill, or you're doing something like that, noise actually doesn't matter. There's that much other noise going on, the wind, the rain, everything. As long as that jacket or whatever you're whatever you're wearing is keeping you dry.

SPEAKER_10: 40:51

And you know what? I hadn't actually considered that really, because you're gonna be wearing one of my cordura jackets when it's kicking it down, and the the noise of the rain will cover that up anyway.

SPEAKER_05: 41:00

The noise, the wind, everything that's going on. The most important part about any piece of clothing that somebody's buying to use for an outdoor activity is whether or not they're gonna stay dry.

SPEAKER_10: 41:14

Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that's it, isn't it? We want to be comfortable, and that was the whole inspiration behind the company because, like I said to you, I'm anti-tanks, anti-tank platoon. Um, so we would typically go set up a position, cam it up, and be sat there for up to a week or two. Um, and I've spent a lot of time being cold and bloody wet in them holes, and I got sick to death of it and decided to do something about it. And it turns out I did that good of a bloody job. This company has just taken off.

SPEAKER_05: 41:41

I was gonna say, because that was gonna be one of my questions, you've just answered it. Why did you start it? Well, you just explained it.

SPEAKER_10: 41:47

Yeah, yeah, and it was it's literally that I just got sick to death of being cold and wet, and I've been sold so many air quotes waterproof jackets that just rip, they get a puncture, and then they let the water in, they don't keep the heat in, they fall to bits, and I just thought, you know what, I'm just gonna do something myself, and then it was you know, going down the that journey of design and manufacturing, and I quickly found out how difficult it is to find a factory that will do truly from top to bottom British manufacturing. But because I did that, because I didn't expect it to turn into what it has, people have really bloody been drawn to the story of oh my god, there's this guy, he's been there, he's done it, he's got the t-shirt, he can talk the talk, and he's walking the walk, and he's making fantastic bits of kit that are truly British made. And I think there's you know, that I can, you know, I can't think of anyone, you know, we were talking about Fortis, Ollie Massey Birch, and I I've got to give him a mention because he's helped me out a lot during this in advising me on British manufacturing, you know, and he is one of the only people in the space that I know that does this sort of thing. Um, and I think just sort of what separates us is our sort of beginnings, you know. Um he's sort of come into it very much from a country-focused thing, whereas I've come in it from a military side that's then directly got you know, there's direct use of the sort of situations and places that soldiers got are very similar. They sort of I mean it's like I said to you at the range this morning, it reminded me of being in Brecon. Exactly, and it's it's the the exact same environment.

SPEAKER_05: 43:25

It it it we're working in the same environment, one is probably more for pleasure or a job, and actually, both of them, it doesn't matter whether you're a soldier or a gamekeeper, they're still both a job, and you are working in some of the most horrendous conditions, and you need kit to behave and perform, and I think that's the biggest problem. I think if you talk to anybody, it's the performance of the equipment is more important in some cases than the outcome of the day. If you come back off a day out and you are drenched, it's you've had a you it's unpleasant. But if you come back in, you've had a great day, you've done what you went out to do, and you're still dry, and you can sit down and have a cup of tea and you're not dripping, happy days.

SPEAKER_10: 44:08

Yeah, I mean, just go backwards there. It's once you're wet and sodden, you cannot perform to your optimum ability, can you? No. So if you're comfortable on the inside, you know, if you can add so at the top level of sports, they're looking for the three, four percenters, but the difference of being gibbering bloody cold and piss wet through, that's gonna take a few hours off you in what you're able to stay out doing, and it's gonna affect your shooting, it's gonna affect your enjoyment. You can't enjoy a day if you're uncomfortable, and that's the whole thing, you know. I like I said to you, I spend all that time cold and wet, and it's you know, you can just perform better when you're comfortable, and I think people are willing to pay, as I'm finding out, people are willing to pay for kit that really actually does what it says it does. Yeah, it's not just clever marketing.

SPEAKER_05: 44:59

100%. I think if if you sell them a product that's gonna last and is it does exactly what it says on the tin, it's like the old Grand Seal advert, isn't it? Yeah, it does exactly what it says on the tin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what people want. Anyway, what we're gonna do now is we're gonna jump out the motor and we're actually gonna head off and see what we're gonna find.

SPEAKER_10: 45:18

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_05: 45:38

Nice thing about this is the mag pops out so you can load the mag up without having to worry about it being in there. And then what we'll actually do is because we're row stalking, if you were out on the hills with the red, you probably wouldn't have a loaded rifle because we don't want it behind us, but because of the nature of being out after the row, something we've got to be quick so we keep the rifle loaded, safety on, it's always going to be muzzle up in this case because of the nature of the sling I'm wearing. Yeah, but it just means that if we get into something, I can quickly get off my shoulder, get it on the sticks, make sure everything's fine. I'll then bring you in, get you to be comfortable behind the rifle, identify what we're looking at, and when we're when I'm ready and basically say to you, take the shot, you take the shot. So, the plan of action before we get there, you we've stopped here at this gateway. We checked the wind just before we started. We've got a nice wind right in our face. This gully goes all the way down. We're gonna stay on this side of it, we're gonna walk in. Now it's quite dense cover, so we are actually gonna cheat slightly. We have got a thermal imaging camera with us. It will just give us a bit of a heads, a bit of a heads up. Hopefully, we can see something that's in there. Get you into a position that we can hopefully get an animal out across this gateway. We'll talk, we'll probably go into a slightly quieter talk as we go on, um, but we'll stop in certain areas because there's places in here that we can see plenty, so we won't be able to disturb too much. But yeah, we'll just get across this gateway and uh we'll head off into the uh sounds good, yeah.

SPEAKER_11: 47:12

Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_06: 47:16

To the wilderness.

SPEAKER_11: 47:22

Cool, yeah, boom.

SPEAKER_05: 47:26

Try not to get you too covered in muck.

SPEAKER_10: 47:28

Oh, don't worry about that man. It's um you know I've uh I've been mucky, cold and wet a lot. So it's nothing. If I'm going back to a warm bed tonight, it doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_05: 47:45

Well that's that's the most important part, isn't it? You couldn't have planned the weather any better, really.

SPEAKER_11: 47:52

Oh god, yeah, yeah, yeah. Bloody lovely.

SPEAKER_05: 47:57

It's been absolutely solid the ground here for months, and then all of a sudden we've had a load of rain and it's all gone a bit um bit soggy.

SPEAKER_10: 48:05

A bit soggy underfoot.

SPEAKER_05: 48:07

So we'll just stop here a second, we'll just have a quick scan down the hillside. So the joy of thermal imaging is if there's anything hot out there, it will glow up bright white.

SPEAKER_11: 48:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 48:21

Quite a clever little toy. It also means that when we're talking and we're working our way in, we've got a little bit more advantage of not disturbing or speaking anything.

SPEAKER_10: 48:36

Yeah. That's um that's even clearer. I'm fairly sure it's a CTLS, which is a massive bloody handheld thing like this. Yeah, yeah. Giant set of binoculars, and the picture isn't as clear as that with it. But it does give grid bearings, oh yeah, yeah, all that sort of stuff, and you can laser mark stuff and send it up to you know the binoculars here are Bluetooth enabled with GPS.

SPEAKER_05: 49:08

So if I take a range and I open my phone up, so these are the Steiners, they will with Google Maps tell me where I'm located, where the shot site is, and then another rifle, it's another rifle like this, but with the new scope on it, it sends the ballistic data to the rifle scope.

SPEAKER_10: 49:27

Wow, so you just then need to.

SPEAKER_05: 49:28

I just need to dial the two numbers together so that they match, wow, and then you screw the trigger. Wow, that's how much technology the Civic kit has come on, it's absolutely phenomenal, really.

SPEAKER_10: 49:41

Um I did mean it's not like the course that I obviously failed, um, all that stuff you have to work out with little bits of paper, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 49:51

Yeah, that's how it used to do it mental maths, but now that the system is that clever that literally an app on your phone and it's doing everything for you. It's kind of scary though, if I can do that, then anybody else can do that with this with the scope. It's uh it's a terrifying thought. So if you look through that, just into that lower gorse patch, you'll see a white hot target. Ah, yeah, seen but the joy this is what I mean. It's easy to see it in the thermal. It's now putting that into perspective with the binos, it doesn't exist at the moment, which means it's probably sat tight in. It'll be a row.

SPEAKER_10: 50:41

Um well you've got that good reference point of the um the telegraph panel on the yeah, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_05: 50:50

It's sat up quite nice. We're gonna keep proceeding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've probably got we've got the wind in our favour, so we'll just um we'll do what we can to get it a bit closer. If there's one, there'll be more. I think the last time I was out counted nine in here.

SPEAKER_10: 51:07

Really?

SPEAKER_05: 51:08

Yeah. It will get a bit drier as we get on.

unknown: 51:17

Yeah, it's really tucked in there, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05: 51:19

Oh, it's tucked in right behind the gorse.

SPEAKER_10: 51:23

What's good is you've got that little sort of Christmas tree-shaped bush right in front of it.

SPEAKER_05: 51:28

Exactly. That's right, we'll work our way in. Tell you what, come up here a bit and get out of this muck.

SPEAKER_08: 51:40

That's better.

SPEAKER_05: 51:50

As we keep approaching, we're opening up our window, so the chances are the the terrain might change a bit and we might get a better angle and a better view. We might also completely close ourselves off where we don't give us any view.

SPEAKER_10: 52:10

We're getting up on that high ground there.

SPEAKER_05: 52:12

We'll start we'll start ascending because actually the gully carries on round. The chances are we can probably walk all the way past this and leave it, and it might move later on anyway for us.

SPEAKER_11: 52:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 52:28

There's actually two of them in there. Is there actually very interesting seeing how you work with it? You've obviously used thermal before. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 52:49

You're able to use an anti-tank and it's a thermal site.

SPEAKER_05: 52:52

Yeah, you're obviously able as well, which a lot of people struggle with when they first use thermal, is to be able to put into play what they're seeing in a thermal image and what they're seeing in the real world. You picked up straight away on the telegraph pole and being able to translate and go, I can see exactly what I'm looking at.

SPEAKER_02: 53:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 53:10

I find so many people struggle. You give them that, they see the white dot, but then they can't actually put it.

SPEAKER_10: 53:17

Referencing a 2D image in their brain to what it looks like in the 3D world. It's like I can see exactly I can literally, I'm looking right at the same time. You know where it is, in the way.

SPEAKER_05: 53:26

Well you can't see it because the the beauty of thermal is thermal cuts through all of that. Yeah, but no, that's cool.

SPEAKER_10: 53:33

It's like um thermal crossover at dawn and dusk. Yes.

SPEAKER_05: 53:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100%.

SPEAKER_10: 53:41

You know, the amount of times when you're training new soldiers in the tanks when you're using thermal and dawn dust, they'll be like, oh the sight picture's gone, the sight picture's gone.

SPEAKER_04: 53:52

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05: 53:58

So they're just sitting at the top of that foreground tree on us. Oh, I can just possibly make out a body completely unshootable because you've got a broom in front of it, yeah, yeah, yeah. But they are tucked in nice and tight. That's alright. They're out of the wind, aren't they? They're out the wind. That's yeah, that's where that's where it's the nicest place to be. So the deer management we're doing on here is purely because there's a large number of deer. We've we're not in the buck season, well, we are technically in buck season because there is no close season for male deer in Scotland anymore. Oh really? But we have to manage the number of females because obviously that will control the population of deer. If left untouched, the deer population could get out of control. Which is what the big issue is in the news at the moment is the number of deer that are the population of deer that just keep increasing.

SPEAKER_04: 55:29

Just see his leg.

SPEAKER_05: 55:39

Sorry, you're a bit tired to me. But their camouflage is absolutely phenomenal It's just that the you've got the gorse comes the bush broom comes down and there's a broom in front of it, and if you look there's just a tiny white fleck on its fur that's just showing up.

SPEAKER_10: 56:05

Reference again.

SPEAKER_05: 56:07

Oh no bother. Problem is once you've done it, probably there'll be things that I said to you about, and you'd be like, no problem, I can see that. And then I'm looking over there, there it is, and you're like, I can't see it.

SPEAKER_11: 56:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 56:45

But that's alright, we'll cry we'll carry on.

SPEAKER_10: 56:53

Also, don't help I ain't got my glasses on. That's alright. It took them while because I didn't want the shine to oh I wouldn't worry about that.

SPEAKER_05: 57:01

The deer. Yeah, they're tucked right in the back of that. We're gonna leave them alone for the minute. Yeah. The way the wind's blowing, we're not gonna wind them.

SPEAKER_10: 57:14

So we can wind them.

SPEAKER_05: 57:17

So basically, deer work on two major sensors.

SPEAKER_10: 57:20

Uh their sensors are understand why we've come upwind from them.

SPEAKER_05: 57:25

But they also can see us. So if they see you but they don't smell you, you can be okay, you can still approach. If they see you, or if they smell you but don't see you, they'll probably run. Yeah, yeah. And if they smell you and they see you, you ain't got to hope in hell. But they're so used to people because there'll be people out dog walking and stuff like that. If they don't smell you, you have the ability to potentially close that distance and get a bit closer.

SPEAKER_10: 57:56

Can you pick them out still on that?

SPEAKER_05: 57:58

Not brilliantly, they're there, but they're tucked in nice and tight. So deer obviously move, they're a ruminating animal. Same as a cow. Uh, they'll eat, they'll sit, they'll chew the cud, and then eventually they'll get up. So at the moment they've probably been out feasting. There's a nice big field up there, they've probably got loads of food out of, and they uh they're probably just sitting out, just letting it digest a bit. But there's a good chance we'll carry on this way, and as we head back, things will things will start to move there's not just one more, there's another two further up the hillside. So the ones we were looking at are lower down and they're out of sight now. But further up there's another two hot spots.

SPEAKER_10: 59:10

Up to the left.

SPEAKER_05: 59:11

Yeah. Yeah, we can't the ones we were looking at are behind that tree, and they're now obscured, and then up to the left, up well up to the right, even there's another two. That's the nature of it. It's not easy going out deer stalking. It's if if ever if it was that easy, everybody would be getting it. Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 59:39

And that's what we don't, that's what why that's the whole that's the whole thing of it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05: 59:44

It's using your skills and your experience and knowledge to allow you to do this and get in to these animals. Because well, it's the same as any job at the end of the day. When you when you're doing it and you know what you're doing, um, it takes that little bit more effort to make it work.

SPEAKER_10: 1:00:00

Work, doesn't it? That it does.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:05

Right, let's crack on down here.

SPEAKER_10: 1:00:14

Certainly isn't something I thought I'd been doing a couple of weeks ago if you told me this. That's right.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:20

But it I think it's all part of it, isn't it? All these experiences, especially with the business you're in, it it will assist in in making the smock more known.

SPEAKER_10: 1:00:32

How to well yeah, but you know, anything I might need to add or take away or challenge.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:37

I think if you sell anything, if if you can actually say firsthand experience, I've done that, yeah, you can have that conversation. I think and I think that's that's the beauty of the beauty of it. You you have the ability to um to actually turn around to people and go, yeah, well I've been stalking in my smock. And I'm sure you'll do other days out and stuff like that. I hope you do, I hope other people invite you.

SPEAKER_10: 1:01:04

Well it's you know, boss of mine just last week asked what they'd be like for stalking, and now I've thought about it actually the little noise they do make would be nothing.

SPEAKER_05: 1:01:18

Well, yeah, there's a lot of clothing on the market, the stalking world, but it's incredibly noisy.

SPEAKER_10: 1:01:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:01:25

Alright?

SPEAKER_10: 1:01:26

Um and it's you know the call durer ones, this is obviously one of the wax, but the cord juror, they are the you know, we did our waterproof testing of the jet washer.

SPEAKER_05: 1:01:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 1:01:37

But it's you're gonna be wearing that when it's kicking it down outside.

SPEAKER_05: 1:01:40

Exactly, it doesn't make a lot of difference. The noise of the world around you is probably just as noisy. The Outdoor Given podcast is proudly sponsored by the Shooting and Hunting Academy. Through the Academy, shooters, hunters, and those involved in the use of firearms can go on an in-depth and unique level of training that enable them to shoot better, but hold more effectively on the field, at first strike rates as well as learning new skills. A dual management certificate that is nationally recognised and accredited both by Lancra and UK rural skills. Visit the Shooting and Hunting Academy to find out more. Let's get back to the show. So the beauty of this gully is it follows the river that runs all the way down past mine. But the deer seem to love it, it's kind of their their hidey hole. It's out the wind, it's slightly sheltered. They can come out and feed on these crops either side.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:51

Oh totally.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:19

Oh it's a pigeon. But it's really hot and it's in the middle of it, so it is a life form.

unknown: 1:03:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:33

So we know we've seen four deer, they're back there, so we've we've got an opportunity to come back to those. We're not being the quietest stalkers today, because obviously we are trying to record a podcast at the same time. But if we can shoot a deer while recording the podcast, we're doing a really good job.

SPEAKER_10: 1:03:48

Yeah. Is there anything down in that open valley?

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:51

Well, I'm just just having a quick look. We're using all the tech we can to uh to make today a little bit uh a little bit easier. So this valley then curves round again to the left and then it opens up again.

SPEAKER_04: 1:04:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11: 1:04:27

Is there something down there?

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:29

No, not nothing, nothing hot. This is where your eyes start playing games with you, you see. And every bush suddenly starts looking like a deer. It's amazing how many deer-shaped bushes there are. And you do this at dawn and dusk, and you're stopping and there's one there. It's a tree stump. There's one there, oh it's a bush. I've stalked into many a tree stump and then realised before thermal, you're doing it all on the binos. That's gotta be, look, it's gotta be a white arse of a deer.

SPEAKER_10: 1:05:00

How so how long ago did thermal really come into the stalking world?

SPEAKER_05: 1:05:05

Thermal came into the shooting industry probably within the last 10 years, slowly building up.

SPEAKER_10: 1:05:10

But the technology now, because I would presume it would have been quite expensive and not as accessible to moist.

SPEAKER_05: 1:05:16

It was expensive.

SPEAKER_10: 1:05:18

How much is that handheld?

SPEAKER_05: 1:05:19

So, this little unit, this this is a pulsar axiom, uh, you're looking at about 800 quid for this.

SPEAKER_10: 1:05:24

Yeah, so that's not mega.

SPEAKER_05: 1:05:26

Not mega, it's a quality unit. But then you go up to something like I've just been sent to test the new binoculars by by Pulsar, which are the XTs, six and a half grand. And then if you went and got yourself a thermal rifle scope as well at six grand, you're 12 grand in the hole before you've bought before you've bought the rifle. So realistically, if this was your hobby and you've bought all of that, you're 20 grand to get a setup.

SPEAKER_11: 1:05:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:05:54

Um, and it's a lot of money to spend.

SPEAKER_11: 1:05:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:05:57

So yeah, and people people go out there. It's really bloody. It's really incredible. It's a pocket-sized device that's that's giving you everything you need.

SPEAKER_10: 1:06:08

I mean, I know a lot of soldiers that'd pay that amount of money for something like that to have.

SPEAKER_05: 1:06:13

It's peace of mind though, isn't it? Yeah, it's quite interesting because uh I've got obviously friends that are uh they're in the Swedish army and stuff like that that do testing of thermal, and it's always a discussion about kit. Thermal has changed warfare. Well, it's changed everything because you can't hide anymore.

SPEAKER_10: 1:06:32

No.

SPEAKER_05: 1:06:33

And people look at it now and it's like, well, is it cheating for deer stalking? Well, I suppose it is in some ways because we're not using we're not using all our normal skills when we now have this technology that shows us things that are hiding. But if we're out, for example, stalking red deer, the thermal stays in the truck. When I we're out today, we're out to look for a deer.

SPEAKER_10: 1:06:55

Explain that to me. Why does it stay in the truck with red deer?

SPEAKER_05: 1:06:58

Why does it stay in the truck? I think it's more it's more the tradition. Right. You're coming to Scotland to stalk the iconic deer. Now, there for me that's the way I would do it, but there are other there are other guides that will take a thermal out with them. Uh, if the weather's really shit, and I mean it's like pea soup, I might take the thermal with me onto the hill because at least then instead of stumbling through the the fog, the thermal sometimes just gives you that edge to allow you just to see a bit so you don't just stumble into a herd of deer. But if we were going out for the full traditional day of the stag and it's a nice clean day, we don't need a thermal. We should use our binoculars. And if if the deer elude us because they're hiding in a burn or something like that, well, it's our fault for being a poor stalker. Um, and especially if I was bringing a guest out to stalk just their first deer normally, I wouldn't be so heavily dependent on the thermal. I'd be all on the binoculars and use all my skills. But in today's case, it's we're trying to do so many different things all at the same time. We've got a certain amount of time, we'll use every advantage we've got to get us into that position where we might be able to get you a shot. So I think what our plan is, because we now get quite a nice view of this whole gully, so I'm not seeing anything, we'll probably do another hundred metres forward, yeah. We'll just look back on that that left hand flank. If there's nothing there, we know there's four up there, we're gonna head ourselves back in and we're gonna kind of do a bit of an ambush. We'll wait because something's gonna get up.

SPEAKER_09: 1:08:39

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:40

And then when it does get up, we've got an opportunity on it.

SPEAKER_09: 1:08:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_10: 1:08:47

Now that is a skill I have got a good experience. I was gonna say that's that's it in an ambushing.

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:56

That's yeah, that takes patience. If you can sit in a hole in the rain, snow, everything.

SPEAKER_10: 1:09:04

I mean this is perfect bushard, all this stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could get in that, move your hand loppers, you cut a little aperture out, get your thermal sheet over the top here, get it cammed up at the back, and you'd sit in there for a couple of days, easy.

SPEAKER_05: 1:09:19

Right. It's always an interesting one to look at it. But that that's there's there's a massive crossover, you see. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 1:09:27

We've got anything down there?

SPEAKER_05: 1:09:28

No, there's nothing in there at the moment apart from that pigeon still eating away at the back.

SPEAKER_10: 1:09:33

We'll leave him for now. But go on, you assume it's quite an interesting.

SPEAKER_05: 1:09:38

It's the crossover, isn't it? You've done stalking, but your type of stalking was for a tanking person. Yeah. My type of stalking is for a deer who probably has no technology but has a keener sense of eyesight and a better sense of smell.

SPEAKER_11: 1:09:56

Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:09:58

Um, and it's probably harder to stalk than the person that stumbles or takes a leak up against the tree. Oh god, I that gives we've just as you're talking with thermal, you go and take a piss over there, you've left a digital signal of a heat signature that if somebody's scanning for you, they just pick up and go, Well, I can't see him, but look, that wasn't there a second ago.

SPEAKER_10: 1:10:21

Yeah, bloody right.

SPEAKER_05: 1:10:27

So I noticed obviously we've got a few minutes, we'll just talk about your jacket again. You've obviously had all the buttons with a nice detail done with like lockwood smocks put into it and all the rest of it.

SPEAKER_10: 1:10:37

They they were actually so they're brass-headed poppers. So the original ones we had buttons done.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:42

Right.

SPEAKER_10: 1:10:42

Um, but then quickly realised when your hands are cold, you're trying to do buttons of a pain in the bloody backside of it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 1:10:48

But um, but the the laser engraving there, that was done by another soldier um who runs a an engraving company, SG Customs in older shops. Right. So it's like you know, I'd found quite a few of them, and then when I found this guy, knowing that he was a serving soldier, I've used him for all my other stuff. Um, all the engraving for all.

SPEAKER_05: 1:11:07

So is that something that's going to carry on throughout the brands?

SPEAKER_10: 1:11:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you see, it's like that matte brushed brass that doesn't give off shine. Yeah, yeah. Yep, yep. Um, it's one of the things you've got to consider, haven't you?

SPEAKER_05: 1:11:26

Many people wouldn't do that, they'd wear their glasses out, they'd wear shiny buttons. They'd I've I say that. I I jokingly said to guests at one point, I could take you stalking in anything. Well, they turned up in like literally white high-vis jackets, still got the Madeir. That's I said I can do it.

SPEAKER_10: 1:11:43

So here's another piece as well. So, you know, um a lot of sort of air quote shooting jackets in the top pocket, they have a little flap button to attach, aren't they? Well, I've integrated that little popper just there under the sort of waist channel. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_05: 1:12:00

So you can basically made yourself a shooting pocket. Yeah, yeah. Because obviously, this is a recording and you won't be able to see this. So basically, under the flap of the big pockets, which would be like your cartridge pockets, you've actually got a little tiny tuck away for the top of the pocket lip to go to onto a popper and basically opens your pockets up fantastic.

SPEAKER_10: 1:12:20

Because I've had a shooting jacket in the past, and that little it's a piece of fabric, isn't it? Yeah, it's a piece of fabric. Normally, in the top pocket that comes out, you you know, they rip or they tear or they come off over time. I mean a lot of them they do last, but if you catch that and say and it pulls off, you know, that is so it's on the these are they've got the draw cords at the waist here that pulls in and that goes just above these bottom pockets, and so underneath that flap it's just hidden away, so it's just it all goes to that because I like to design stuff minimalist.

SPEAKER_05: 1:12:50

Again, a nice design, simple ideas that actually goes a long way and makes the jacket very functional and different.

SPEAKER_10: 1:12:58

Because it's like this. I don't I mean, I don't know about mentioning the brand, so because I'm sort of but you see that that embroidery there, the the logo on it. I don't like stuff where the logo in it's like big, massively branded. So on this one, I've just got the the little guardsman um you you know embroidered on there, but it's the same colour stitching so it blends in.

SPEAKER_05: 1:13:19

Yeah, so you've actually got the logo there, but instead of it being a bright bold logo, it's there, but it's it's it blends in with the jacket. So in theory, that is a usable jacket in any situation because yeah, the item is not going to stand out and glow. Whereas obviously with the product I'm wearing, it's all about unfortunately the branding.

SPEAKER_10: 1:13:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's it's the money game, isn't it? But I just think I'm trying to build this on reputation rather than needing the branding. Because it's a lot of people keep coming back to me, oh my god, it's this, it's that, it's brilliant, da da da. I'm like, cool, tell your friends, you you know, because word of mouth is as we know, it's I presume exactly the same in your world as everything I've ever done, and with soldiers, you you know, it's word of mouth what kit actually works.

SPEAKER_05: 1:14:05

Well, I can say, as 20 years of building my own business, word of mouth has been powerful. The most important bit. People phone me up to offer advertising. It's like, well, realistically, don't need it. How do you how don't you need it? It's like I've got enough business, I'm 20 years in my my business, and I can pick and choose the days. Obviously, for a new brand like yours, advertising is key at the moment, but it will get to the point where the brand should, in theory, sell itself and hold itself up, and going forward for you, it will just be one of those things that rolls off the tongue.

SPEAKER_10: 1:14:39

Yeah, of course. Bloody right.

SPEAKER_05: 1:14:42

Right, what we're gonna do, we're gonna head back that way and we're gonna settle ourselves in for a bit of an ambush position. At least it's not chucking it down, it's quite a pleasant day.

SPEAKER_10: 1:14:52

Would have been all well, I would have been alright.

SPEAKER_05: 1:14:54

You'd you'd you'd have been fine in your spot. I might get a bit wet if the weather turns too bad. They know how to protect themselves. That's why they've got that's why they've lived for so long. Yeah. Those other two have really tucked themselves in further. Oh, really? Yeah, if you have a look, there's just two still showing.

SPEAKER_11: 1:15:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 1:15:41

They almost look like they haven't moved.

SPEAKER_05: 1:15:43

No. I was gonna say the other one was further up. I'll tell you what, we'll leave here, we'll go drive on to another bit of woodland. Okay. And we'll have a look and see what's going on over there. Something a bit different. Yeah, yeah. We've got plenty of time. What time do you need to get away?

SPEAKER_10: 1:16:02

Whenever.

SPEAKER_05: 1:16:02

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_10: 1:16:03

I've only got a drive back, I've got nothing on. What day is it today? Friday, isn't it? Hi, Friday. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 1:16:14

I don't know, hang on. Just round this corner.

SPEAKER_10: 1:16:18

Yeah, it's just the drive back. Oh, it's not too bad then. It's a straight shoot, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05: 1:16:30

Yeah, there's the third one, it is there. The third one is there, still above it.

SPEAKER_10: 1:16:38

Yeah, they literally haven't moved, have they?

SPEAKER_05: 1:17:01

Right, we'll leave them to it and we'll move on.

SPEAKER_10: 1:17:06

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_05: 1:17:08

We'll stay high, it keeps us out the uh the muddy bit.

SPEAKER_10: 1:17:10

Out the bog. And so it is all year round.

SPEAKER_05: 1:17:32

Yeah, yeah, shoot deer now. But in Scotland there's a roe deer, which we're after here. Yeah. Uh there you could you literally could have shot them all year round anyway. Yeah. Because the way the male and the female deer species overlapped, they never, they were always in season.

SPEAKER_10: 1:17:50

Right.

SPEAKER_05: 1:17:51

Down in England there are certain deer species that will go out of season when there's times they can't be shot.

SPEAKER_10: 1:17:56

Right.

SPEAKER_05: 1:17:57

But the way that Scottish legislation always worked on it was there was always a deer in season. Red deer had a break, they did have a period of time when they were out of season.

SPEAKER_10: 1:18:07

And what was that for?

SPEAKER_05: 1:18:08

It's to allow them. Well, it's to allow them to have that time with the the young when they're not being persecuted so that the young deer has a chance to uh grow with its mother, and also to allow the male deer a chance to recuperate during the winter months and to build a bit of strength come the summer before you start chasing them around again. But now that that's gone away. So realistically, the male deer, because somebody thought it was a good idea, can be persecuted 365 days a year. Yeah. Because males are what increase the population. Yes, that's right, yeah, because it only takes one male deer and he can cover 30 hinds. Yeah, they there was no common sense to it, but that's unfortunately that's a look that somebody that doesn't understand how the countryside works, yeah, puts a rule in play.

SPEAKER_10: 1:19:09

Oh god, yeah, yeah. I mean, oh yeah, you know, without getting into politics, it's how much effect have the people down in the city had on people out of the countryside that don't understand it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:19:25

That's that's the biggest, biggest fight continuously, and I I think that has probably a lot of effect not just on the countryside, but that's had an effect on everything.

SPEAKER_10: 1:19:36

Yeah, I mean they've just time and time again demonstrated their the lack of understanding of the what their decisions the results that their decisions are are making. Yes.

SPEAKER_05: 1:19:49

Um well and I think that goes even even to the industry, like the industry you're in will outstource it because all of a sudden it's felt like well we get a better. Deal, or there's something else going on, then it doesn't.

SPEAKER_10: 1:20:05

But then it's what is the human cost, what is the economical cost of these decisions? People just think very short summit about short-term profits.

SPEAKER_05: 1:20:17

It's bottom line, isn't it? And everybody sees that the bottom line has that.

SPEAKER_10: 1:20:24

But it is it always goes to that. If I stick to my ethos, it's in time. The volume of people that come to me will make up for the lack of margin because it's you know mate quality people come back.

SPEAKER_05: 1:20:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 1:20:43

You know, I'm not chasing the big brand, it's just do the job right by my country and my people, and you know, that'll translate into more and more people coming to seek me out.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:59

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_10: 1:21:00

Um and there we go, that's that's it. But all these new clothes brands coming out and all the big names, they just think short-term profits and they don't understand that yes, but if you're making subpar clothing which have real negative effects around the planet, you ain't gonna have longevity.

SPEAKER_05: 1:21:20

I think I think that's the thing though, but then is it that still that that fix that the customer gets that they bought something it was cheap, and then full they feel they've got a bug in. The clothing manufacturer that's made it thinks they've made a good sale, and it just gets it's it it all goes romantic, it's all all cyclical, like we said.

SPEAKER_10: 1:21:43

The universe is still giving a example about what you put in, and if you get any short-term profits, you'll screw yourself.

SPEAKER_05: 1:21:56

Yep. So yeah, another bit of forestry. We're gonna take a look in here, see what we can find.

SPEAKER_10: 1:22:03

Yeah, boom. Sounds good. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:22:11

Yeah, so we're gonna head this way first because of the way the wind's blowing, yeah, and then allow us to drop in, yeah, and then come straight back up. So it's quite a steep drop-off into this. So we'll get further out and then we can look down into the place.

SPEAKER_11: 1:22:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 1:22:26

Yeah, this stuff is a nightmare on it. I suppose it doesn't get through that, does it? That won't get through the third. It does actually get through the cordia, yeah. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_05: 1:22:38

It does, and it's this is the worst thing for waterproof killing. Because obviously these have got membrane.

SPEAKER_11: 1:22:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:22:45

So if you start punching, and this stuff's well, gorse is incredibly tough stuff. If you punch the membrane, you're leaking it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Drop down here, it should be relatively dry. Now then, now then this is this is ankle breaking territory. So we'll take it steady because I don't want to injure you. We'll be off this in a minute, you'll be walking safe and sound again. You're right.

SPEAKER_10: 1:23:23

I'm literally just thinking, I mean, these leave my barefoot's so good. You can feel all the ground underneath it. And then all of a sudden stand on a slippy bloody branch.

SPEAKER_05: 1:23:34

I should have said about boots, I should have said where you where your issue boots.

SPEAKER_10: 1:23:39

Even if you said that would have still worn these. Fair enough. Yeah, I'd bloody swear by the barefoot. It was that them piles of sticks like that that went exactly standing on a bloody wet pane of glass. Yeah. You know, you'll just go straight over.

SPEAKER_05: 1:24:00

So the snow here has quite helped quite a lot because it has flattened down a lot of this tall grass. But beforehand you'd come in here and it would be up here, so stalking this has been quite tricky.

SPEAKER_10: 1:24:11

Yeah. So when was there snow up here then?

SPEAKER_05: 1:24:15

Uh two weeks ago. We had really heavy snow. How thick was it a fair then? Uh we probably got to about half a foot. Oh wow. And that came in two days, then it froze solid, hence the reason you've got the big dollop of it still outside the back door.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:29

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_05: 1:24:34

So, yeah, I was saying to you about a regeneration site. You can see here this bunch of trees, they're naturally self-seeded. But over the entire site, what they're looking for is they're looking for these to come through. Now, if we were a planted bit of forestry, there'd be obviously every meter apart, there'd be a tree. But we've still got the same situation in here. Deer like to come in and nibble the tops out of trees. So you can see deer damage there as a little white grass. But they've taken the tops out. Why do they take the tops out? They take the sweet succulent bit of growth out of the top of the tree. By doing that, you create a false tree, but the tree then gets a curve in it. So when this tree was growing, it was growing nice and straight. Yeah, it's gone sideways, so that will grow, but it'll probably see that second bit as well. Yeah, it will never grow to be a nice piece that could be used for saw timber. Yeah, yeah. Fine for biomass and stuff like that, but you want really straight timbers. So, what they're looking for is we've got to come in here, we shoot the deer. That's the reason that deer management can be quite important because the protection of trees, it's not just about it's not that literally not that one, there it's split. Split, yeah. So you're looking at a dead tree there, but at some point in its life, yeah, it it's true fighting for for growth.

SPEAKER_09: 1:25:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:25:55

So when you want saw timber, it's really important that the trees are protected, but it's also enough sometimes that it'll actually kill the tree completely and they just don't grow. There's one field down there. Unfortunately, not on us. Too far away. Well, we don't have the shooting rights over onto that farm either.

SPEAKER_10: 1:26:12

Ah, really?

SPEAKER_05: 1:26:13

But well spotted.

SPEAKER_10: 1:26:16

How far away is that? Oh, let me guess. Has that got a range finder? Yeah. Er 780 metres. Say again? Less. Really?

SPEAKER_05: 1:26:30

408.

SPEAKER_10: 1:26:32

What's 780? That tree line up there. 480 or 400. 408. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05: 1:26:40

That tree line up there is 723.

SPEAKER_10: 1:26:44

Well off.

SPEAKER_05: 1:26:44

Yeah, don't be doing the ballistics for you for that.

SPEAKER_10: 1:26:47

The dead ground has put me right off.

SPEAKER_05: 1:26:49

That's the problem you get when you get the when you get that that valley, it can really affect your your range. So this rifle, if we dialed it into point the number four on the turret. Would you be able to hit that? That would take that out.

SPEAKER_10: 1:27:03

Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:27:04

We were shooting stags this year at 400.

SPEAKER_10: 1:27:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_05: 1:27:09

Well, we had we had we had two stags taken by guests at 400, one four, two, three, and one four hundred.

SPEAKER_10: 1:27:15

Yeah, nice.

SPEAKER_05: 1:27:16

Uh but that's because you had dead ground, you couldn't get any closer. It's a hell of a shot though.

SPEAKER_10: 1:27:21

I can't believe how well that castle still looks. It's good.

SPEAKER_05: 1:27:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 1:27:27

Alright, we'll carry on. Let's flip and get on. Now we know that there's at least something in the area.

SPEAKER_05: 1:27:32

If there's something over there, there's a good chance there'll be stuff in below us. Yeah, yeah. Or at the right time they're starting to move.

SPEAKER_10: 1:27:38

So you said earlier you do a morning and an evening treat, presumably for that exact reason that they're moving most at dawn and dusk.

SPEAKER_05: 1:27:51

Yeah, I think it depends on mostly on the pressure that you put on a piece of land can change the nature of how deer move. Lots of deer will move between dawn and dusk because it's the safest times, it's that changeover of light. So if they're out feeding in a field or they're coming out of a woods to feed in the field, they'll do it early days. If you've got no pressure, we I used to I shoot a lot of row on the backside of lunch because they've still got to get up and move. And what's that now? That's putting us at 20 to 3 and it's out clear as day in the field. Alright, we're we've probably this time of yeah, we've probably got an hour and a bit before darkness. Yeah, but remember, deer don't stop, they carry on through the night as well. Of course.

SPEAKER_10: 1:28:36

So you're you're telling me they don't have the night time TV and then get in bed.

SPEAKER_05: 1:28:45

I wish they did. They're more if you've got a lot of pressure on a piece of land, they become more nocturnal because they know they're safe at night because obviously they have the power of camouflage and the world around them. But this yeah, it's it is tricky to know. But as you can see, the trees are doing pretty well here. I've got Barry out with his piece of string, he's got one tied up for us. Yeah, pretty much. I can't give you all my secrets, but I'll give you a few. See, we might be lucky, she might come down, but if she's on the move, there might be other stuff that suddenly appears out of this thick stuff at the bottom.

SPEAKER_10: 1:29:40

She's she's been pretty much stood in the same location all the way down that hill.

SPEAKER_06: 1:29:46

She's moving but slowly. But if she's up and moving, this is when other stuff will suddenly start getting up.

SPEAKER_05: 1:29:52

And as you say, we were discussing that thing about your jacket. The nice bit is you haven't you've made just as much noise in it as I've made. So realistically, your your waxes probably will work quite nice.

SPEAKER_11: 1:30:04

Oh god aye.

SPEAKER_05: 1:30:10

Two deer just got up and ran up the hill.

SPEAKER_04: 1:30:13

Really?

SPEAKER_05: 1:30:13

Yeah. But we were negative on them, we were always going to be winding them, unfortunately. But it was a buck sat here, and it was a doe sat there, and they hopped up. Just as you stepped, they went up. It's alright, it's that's just the way it is. We could have walked if we'd walked 50 yards over and walked down on them, we'd have probably stepped on them before we'd seen them. It's the downside of this game.

SPEAKER_11: 1:30:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:30:43

But that doesn't necessarily mean anything, they might just come round the top because there's a road up there. They may cycle round and drop back in. There's one over there, grey's knocking through white arse. If you go into the trees. This side of the the other side of the river.

SPEAKER_10: 1:31:07

Oh. Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:11

Same.

SPEAKER_05: 1:31:13

So that's one, two, three, four we're looking at at the moment.

SPEAKER_10: 1:31:18

There's plenty air, aren't there?

SPEAKER_07: 1:31:23

347 metres.

SPEAKER_05: 1:31:29

So we're winding at the moment, unfortunately, everything that way. So my plan is we're gonna go down here about another 50 yards and we're just gonna hook ourselves around the edge of this this face and it will allow us to see what's going on. So the key about deer stalking, as I always like to say to people, is move walk a little, look a lot, stalk a little, look a lot, because every 10 steps you take, the whole environment you're moving in changes. Just that 10 paces forward, we've suddenly opened up a huge amount of terrain here that we couldn't see from up there. And most people in their day-to-day life, they're too the world is moving so fast, they don't take time to stop and look. A lot of people walk past nature without even seeing it. You're used to sitting up and waiting for the world to come round you, but when we're actively hunting it, we have to move, stop, look. And actually, if it takes you an hour to walk a hundred meters, it doesn't matter because in that time period the whole landscape changes. That deer's there, that one's just popped out. Well, there could be another one sat behind a tree stump down here that we haven't seen just yet. And if we take our time to move forward slowly, all of a sudden it gets up, moves forward five paces, and we've got a chance to get it. There's one over there just in the trees.

SPEAKER_10: 1:32:58

Oh gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:33:07

So we're gonna slowly descend, keep an eye on that one because that one may well come into us, and we'll get an opportunity.

SPEAKER_07: 1:33:19

You can just see it, there's some burnt leaves.

SPEAKER_05: 1:33:25

And then there's a tree that goes up and it's just sticking its head out. You can see its body, it's like a dark coppery brown colour.

SPEAKER_06: 1:33:35

It's a hundred and seventy-seven meters from here.

SPEAKER_07: 1:33:42

I think I can see it. Very difficult to make it out. You can just see some of its body and its head, but its head isn't completely clearly visible.

SPEAKER_05: 1:34:03

How would I describe it?

SPEAKER_10: 1:34:05

You've got the fallen tree with the Yeah, so I'm referencing that V of the two trees just to the right of it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:34:13

Okay, yeah, yeah. Come down that. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so come down that V, and then you see the white grass, yellowy coloured grass on your right hand side. I think the deer is to the left of that, standing in the copper coloured leaves.

SPEAKER_10: 1:34:37

Oh, I think you're right. I think you're right.

SPEAKER_05: 1:34:48

It's the only thing that I tell you what, we'll put the rifle up on it 'cause we can get a better zoom than we can on the uh on the binos. Oh wow, you get it behind that, all you can see is its head sticking out from behind the tree. That should be literally on it. You'll just see a set of eyes staring you down, and a set of ears at the bottom of the tree.

SPEAKER_04: 1:35:58

Where's the V?

SPEAKER_05: 1:36:00

I'll forget the V. I had it, I did have the scope on it, so if you so if you come, you've got the V, then you've got a tree to the right, then you've got another tree. Come to the bottom of that other the third tree on the right hand side. Okay, so hang on. Get the V. Can you find the V?

SPEAKER_10: 1:36:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:36:26

Right. Then you've got some copper coloured light.

SPEAKER_10: 1:36:29

Oh my god, I'm looking right at his face.

SPEAKER_05: 1:36:31

Yeah, looking at you.

SPEAKER_10: 1:36:32

Yeah, he's looking right at us. I've literally got the crosshairs between his eyes.

SPEAKER_07: 1:36:37

Yeah. That's some camouflage, isn't it? Oh my god, what a spot. He's literally looking right at us.

SPEAKER_05: 1:36:51

So it's sat down and it's got its head pointing towards us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a shot we wouldn't take. Oh no, of course not. At least you're on.

SPEAKER_04: 1:37:01

Not zeroed like we are at this range.

SPEAKER_05: 1:37:04

Uh we could dial this scope to exactly what it is. I can do we can do all of that with the brinos, and we could literally put make sure the rifle, the way you shoot, I could put the rifle bang on it, no problems at all. But because we can't see enough of its body and it's your first ear, I wouldn't want you to take a headshot anyway. No. But you've picked it up, you've identified it. It's hello camouflage there, that's what always gets me. It's amazing how they are almost invisible, and it knows it can see us.

SPEAKER_10: 1:37:33

Oh, he's looking literally right down.

SPEAKER_05: 1:37:38

Eyes burning down to your heart, and then we're looking with eye-powered scope wound up to like 24, and we're still struggling to see it. So what we're gonna do, I think, is we're gonna wait. And I think we'll just take a seat and we'll chill out for a minute.

SPEAKER_06: 1:38:07

And uh do you get me a picture? Of course.

SPEAKER_07: 1:38:17

That's fine, it means we're not a threat anymore. The beauty of it is we probably blend in quite nicely to the hillside.

SPEAKER_10: 1:38:42

These ears are moving now.

SPEAKER_05: 1:38:46

Listening to something there's a lot of noise down there because obviously you've got the village behind it, you've got the sheep in the field, you've got the water flowing past it, we've got the beauty that we've got the wind right in our face.

SPEAKER_01: 1:39:10

Say again, one seven seven You think it'll move anytime, see?

SPEAKER_04: 1:39:29

Yeah, it'll get up in a bit.

SPEAKER_05: 1:39:30

This is the key of stalking, it's the ability now to exactly as you do, is throw yourself into that ability just to sit still. We'll move in a second, we'll move forward a bit.

SPEAKER_06: 1:39:41

We know where it is. We'll get ourselves into a place where we can get ourselves tucked in, sat down, slightly more out of the wind, still with a good vantage point. Thing is, other stuff might move as well. For everyone you can see. There could be two you can't see.

SPEAKER_05: 1:40:12

We've seen two up and already on the move, you see. So if they've already got up and started moving, it would indicate that the deer are probably getting ready to start getting up to have a little bit of a graze and a bit more food in them.

SPEAKER_06: 1:40:27

Thing about this bit of place is I don't shoot it heavily because the deer numbers aren't stupid. So the deer don't ever know when somebody's in here. Oh there is another one.

SPEAKER_07: 1:40:47

It is off to our left in the grass. So this could be our just stuck its head back down.

SPEAKER_06: 1:41:09

Yep, there's a set of ears just starting to pink up. Can't actually see it without the thermal. But I suspect in a minute another deer's gonna show. Yeah, there's stuff off to our left in the gorse here. So we'll just wait. We won't move too much, but it might start coming out. Generally, if it's gonna come out, it'll come out and come below us. We will have to move slightly because we've got obviously this brush in front of us that we don't want to shoot.

SPEAKER_11: 1:41:46

Just tell me if we're gonna move on to the past the weapon back to you. Uh rifle, sorry, I should say.

SPEAKER_06: 1:41:53

You just stay where you are at the moment. I want to see if it moves. If we don't move. I feel like I can see its chest, but I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_05: 1:42:01

No, I can just see a little hot spot, which I'd say it's the top of its ears. So you know those two that went past us. I suspect they've gone up and they've come back round.

SPEAKER_06: 1:42:22

Let's try and move in. Okay. Maybe about thirty yards. What we're gonna do is we're gonna back out to the left. Go up here through this bit of this tree is where it's quite thin. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_08: 1:42:54

Get yourself behind that.

unknown: 1:42:57

I think I came up around. Right.

SPEAKER_08: 1:43:05

You've got a nice clean shot there, but we'll wait until it stands up. Can you see it? It's still looking down, yeah. It's looking to the left. Okay, right, so basically, if that deer stands up and gives you a chest shot, a side-on chest shot, just push the safety forward and take the shot, yeah. That is literally back on the mouth. All you've gotta do is literally put a a crosshair on the middle of his on the middle of his chest. Basically between his shoulder and his shoulder blade. He really does not want to get shot today, does he? There's someone else coming down to the right. There's another spot. So behind that there's a banking that goes out with more gorse on it. And I suspect it's seeing someone up there. So I thought it was getting out. That's right. I third was quite deceiving. You get a lot more visibility of the animal than you can in the actual glass. I think we could probably drop that distance a little bit more. Just can you see it? Yeah, we got him. Right. Hundred and twenty-two. If you wanna if I give you a red dog. How's that? That's more distracting, right? Okay. Right.

SPEAKER_06: 1:46:22

I don't know what happened there. Right, yes, the fucker. Don't worry, idiot. It's alright, it's alright. Just stay still.

unknown: 1:46:44

Motherfucker.

SPEAKER_08: 1:46:46

Wait, it's coming.

SPEAKER_07: 1:46:48

Oh see.

SPEAKER_08: 1:46:50

Fuck's sake.

SPEAKER_07: 1:46:51

Clean this. Clean this.

SPEAKER_08: 1:46:55

Oh it's gone into that thick stuff. It won't go far.

SPEAKER_06: 1:47:00

Oh no, that looks no, it's not. Pollocks. Pollocks. So I'm just gonna make sure there wasn't two. No, I think you had a clean mess. Yeah, let's just make sure it's not wounded or anything. Make sure it doesn't drop.

SPEAKER_07: 1:47:38

Still going.

SPEAKER_05: 1:47:47

We're gonna give it a second just to make sure it looks like it's a completely clean mess. You haven't injured it in any way. What we're gonna do though is we're just gonna double check down there. Open the rifle.

SPEAKER_10: 1:48:00

Oh sorry.

SPEAKER_05: 1:48:01

No, you're alright.

SPEAKER_10: 1:48:03

When you say check down there.

SPEAKER_05: 1:48:05

Just to make sure there wasn't two.

SPEAKER_10: 1:48:08

Ah, and we have now.

SPEAKER_05: 1:48:09

And what I saw was another one get up and run off. But that one was a clean mess. Yeah. That's alright. These things happen. These things happen.

SPEAKER_06: 1:48:23

A bit of excitement.

SPEAKER_05: 1:48:29

Yeah, that deer is gone.

SPEAKER_10: 1:48:31

Well go check there and then walk up that way.

SPEAKER_05: 1:48:34

Yeah. Hey, don't beat yourself up there. Exactly.

SPEAKER_11: 1:48:45

Sorry, you leave that.

SPEAKER_05: 1:48:46

No, no, no. You know where we're going. I just want to see you go out over ticket for the bushes.

SPEAKER_10: 1:48:58

This is like that sitting and waiting. I was like, come on, stand up.

SPEAKER_05: 1:49:04

So as it came out clean and ran, yeah, I've got there's no no chance you've you've hit it, so we're just gonna double check just in case. I did put the record on on the thermal, but I saw it go as soon as you but you never know. There could have been two that we hadn't seen. Big difference to when it's a piece of paper though.

SPEAKER_10: 1:49:33

Oh god, yeah. You know, when you said, right, you can take this up, my heart started going. I was like, oof.

SPEAKER_05: 1:49:42

That's the bit that gets most people. Mmm, that's when it really does. That's where the adrenaline picks up. It's fine sitting there and watching it, it's when it actually oh god, yeah, the reality cut kicks in. And this is when the world changes. Yeah. Find that V tree now. This is why we've got this for a little bit of bonus material.

SPEAKER_06: 1:50:37

From here, it's this way.

SPEAKER_05: 1:50:43

No, it was more up here, just over here by this white grass. So the tree with a V here. Oh, we were looking at a different V, but it's down in here, wasn't it? Tree with a V branches. See the beach going up? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was just sat on the other side over there, and there's nothing hot that I see. The problem we didn't possibly see. Well, we should have had a pretty clear view. I did try and get us into a place where we weren't going to hit any brash, but you never know. Could have easily just clipped something. There is no deer. It was literally down in here, wasn't it? Yeah, so if you stand here, see this see this tree stump that comes out to the side.

SPEAKER_10: 1:51:32

Yeah, he was just sat there.

SPEAKER_05: 1:51:35

There is nothing there, there's no wounded animal. So I don't think we're gonna try and go across there, it's pretty wet. Right. We were a clean window to it, that was our view from where we were up there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it wasn't like there was anything in the way, it was clean, it was open. Just unfortunately, the gods didn't align with it. No, shit shooter. No, we'll leave that because it looks quite wet and deep. There's no deer.

SPEAKER_10: 1:52:17

Oh. Disappearing for that.

SPEAKER_05: 1:52:21

Yeah, you won't be coming out of that. Well, there's a way across because the deer obviously found it. But there's nothing out there, there's no hot nothing hot lying there. That's alright, these things happen. And it ran away with no issues, no reaction, no slowing down. So what a shame. It's alright, gotta come again.

SPEAKER_10: 1:53:11

That's uh a year's a game bloody NFC eyed up to the eyeballs. Yeah? I think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:53:23

Right, we'll make our way back up. Up that way. Yeah. I was looking just to see whether we're seeing any hot spots or anything like that. Don't drop a DJI mic. Oh, yours is still there.

SPEAKER_02: 1:53:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:53:45

Just making sure there's nothing on the floor that indicates that obviously if it was bleeding, we might get some hot only for a few minutes, only for a second or so, we might get something. It came across here, you see, before it headed off this way. Well, it's not like we're seeing any blood. You can see the deer run through here because there's a trail.

SPEAKER_10: 1:54:05

The natural goat track. Yeah, man.

SPEAKER_05: 1:54:09

Unfortunately, yeah, he followed up the other gazers that went up there, didn't he? Yeah, so straight out that way, up and out. Well, we tried.

SPEAKER_10: 1:54:20

Yeah, we did.

SPEAKER_05: 1:54:22

We did. We were losing light, we took the opportunity. Um it doesn't always pay off. Clean this, move on, come back another day.

SPEAKER_10: 1:54:34

It's I can you know I can see the attraction to it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:54:39

Let's get this on my back again. Oh yeah. It's uh there's a there's a big thing about it, especially when you mentioned that, yeah, you felt as soon as I said you can take the shot.

SPEAKER_10: 1:54:54

Oh god, yeah, instantly it was see you know you said that and it took me about 30 seconds and start to take the shot off. I had to do some breathing work to wax off again. Which is strange, isn't it? You know, I'd been sat there for probably the best part of 45 minutes staring right between his eyes, literally with just the crosshairs doing that. Yep. Down his head. And then as soon as you said it, I started going like this.

SPEAKER_05: 1:55:20

I was like, but that that's what it gets people. Is that's when the adrenaline kicks in and then all.

SPEAKER_10: 1:55:27

And yeah, that's when I fucking missed it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:55:31

It's alright.

SPEAKER_10: 1:55:32

As I say, it's if the light hadn't been deteriorating like that, boy, I'd have probably taken longer to take that shot, but I was just thinking I can struggling to see it the best I can. It's alright.

SPEAKER_05: 1:55:50

As I say, we watched it leave, it didn't.

SPEAKER_10: 1:55:54

I mean it was scampering off at the flipping right of knots, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_05: 1:55:58

No issues, no problems.

SPEAKER_10: 1:56:07

So I'm guessing when they are they haven't been hit with a clean shot, they don't run off like that.

SPEAKER_05: 1:56:13

There would have been it would have probably been what it's like, anything.

SPEAKER_10: 1:56:16

Almost like seeing a lame horse when they're moving, you can see that they're off. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_05: 1:56:21

That there was in no way, shape, or form uh struggling. I think the problem was it's probably the difference is once the adrenaline kicks in, you're slightly all over the place. Probably again you forget how light the trigger is and you snitch it.

SPEAKER_10: 1:56:39

It's all things that just bloody early bloody hello.

SPEAKER_05: 1:56:47

So we'll just we're just doing all our due diligence looking, making sure there's no hot spots. But yeah, for the that deer, as far as I could see, was moving perfectly normally and was on its way out.

SPEAKER_10: 1:57:07

You know, I've instantly just started thinking about as we're getting up the hill what a phone's gonna be doing. I've just realised I haven't thought about it once. It's good, isn't it? Oh my god. That is literally just I've just realised that you've had the best part of 45 minutes of complete. Oh god, I literally haven't thought about it once. Oh god.

SPEAKER_05: 1:57:31

So you need to take this up as a hobby to give you the ability to go. I'm gonna have a bit of time now.

SPEAKER_10: 1:57:37

Oh god. I honestly feel like just such a bloody relief.

SPEAKER_05: 1:57:49

Anyway, they've all gone.

SPEAKER_10: 1:57:54

Fuck this y'all. I'm not gonna lie. As harsh as it may sound to say bloody gutter, didn't it? That I could have come up in another week or two and collected some of my meat.

SPEAKER_04: 1:58:19

Yeah yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:58:22

Sorry, you can come back in another week.

SPEAKER_06: 1:58:29

Yeah, come up.

SPEAKER_05: 1:58:30

You're more than welcome.

SPEAKER_10: 1:58:32

I think I think I may very well just do try and get up a couple of times in January or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:58:46

It gives you a switch off.

SPEAKER_10: 1:58:48

Oh my god, honestly, it's literally when we turned and just started walking up the hill, then I thought, oh I wonder what's gonna find you haven't thought about that the whole time you've been down there. No, oh my anything you've thought about you know what I um I get I get it, I get it now. It's like you've just got to be absolute concentration thinking about the the task at hand and nothing else.

SPEAKER_05: 1:59:22

The world goes by.

SPEAKER_10: 1:59:24

So what was really interesting, it's I remember at one point I was just when I was staring down down at his little f uh little face, and just do the river off to the side and I was like, God, this is peaceful.

SPEAKER_05: 1:59:38

Somebody said somebody said to me, What were you doing? I thought I could fucking hug you right now, you know. Man, somebody said to me, What were you doing the day the queen died? I'll tell you what I was doing. I was standing with a girl called Molly in the woods, and we've been there longer, and she no word of a lie. We're waiting for this little buck to get up. Yeah, not care in the world.

SPEAKER_11: 2:00:02

Phone was off.

SPEAKER_05: 2:00:03

Watching, watching, watching. It stood up. She executed the shot, it dropped to the floor. We got back to the car, turned the radio on, and the whole world had erupted with the announcements. I turned to her and said, You'll never forget where you were the day the announcement. And she goes, No, I never can. But for that 45 minutes to an hour, the world had stopped for us.

SPEAKER_10: 2:00:27

Yeah, that honestly, wow. Um that is quite um you can lose yourself. Oh god, yeah. And it's I get it, like all these you know, these sort of field sports and all that, it's sort of quite wrong, there's associated with uh the upper class or whatever, but uh it's like these busy business people and that and London types, I understand it, and they've got such manic lives, but now to just come up here and shut down, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 2:01:01

Turn off do you know what it's the best reset?

SPEAKER_10: 2:01:06

Oh my god. I I honestly feel like I've had a weight taken off me. That's so strange. That'd have been nice to have had some meat if it was that easy I feel really cruel, saying everybody'd be doing it. Yeah. Yeah, I think I've found uh a future pattern uh I'm getting a bit of feeling back in my fingers now.

SPEAKER_05: 2:01:52

Bit of blood pumping if you got the help.

SPEAKER_10: 2:01:54

Them two fingers there. Yeah, them two fingers and me two outside little toys. Right, I spent that much time in bloody holes. Not non-freezing cold injuries, they call it.

SPEAKER_04: 2:02:09

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 2:02:10

Yeah, got that on them fingers because your right hand on the clue, the command launch, you know, that's where all the the dials and everything are. Yeah, so when you're messing around with the contrast and brightness, focus on that. It's your contrast and brightness like this time of the day when the temperatures are coming down. Yeah, I just try to get that messing around with the pitch all the time, and it's you know, usually you've got that aperture at the front of the the breeze is just coming on your hand there's a door tree.

SPEAKER_05: 2:03:02

This was full of those mouse.

SPEAKER_10: 2:03:31

Not sure yet.

SPEAKER_02: 2:03:47

Oh, bugger Yeah back time.

SPEAKER_10: 2:03:58

Good.

SPEAKER_05: 2:04:00

Keep going straight across and we'll be up on the track.

SPEAKER_10: 2:04:04

That's that bloody as a sofa.

SPEAKER_11: 2:04:13

Oh there, yeah.

SPEAKER_10: 2:04:15

That's it. Oh, there's a bug just there. Right.

SPEAKER_05: 2:04:25

You've got to be a agile athlete as well doing this. Fucking right. So uh yeah, it's been a been a good day.

SPEAKER_10: 2:04:38

Oh my god, hasn't it just?

SPEAKER_05: 2:04:40

Um hopefully it uh it covers everything we've done.

SPEAKER_10: 2:04:44

Yeah, boom.

SPEAKER_05: 2:04:45

So you can have a nice brew now and think about the podcast.

SPEAKER_10: 2:04:48

Yeah, flipping heck alive. Yeah, that is bloody smart. That's a flipping decent little mud. Well, thank you very much. Yeah, and uh honestly, um I've got it. When we walked up that hill at the end of the day, then I I really got it, you know, because my life is so bloody manic. I mean, everything that's been going off here since um getting back to the bloody phone then, but it's you know, when I that then click of oh now the outside world's just come back, and I've realized we're going back.

SPEAKER_05: 2:05:29

It's you suddenly you're back in reality for that that split second, well, 45 minutes of standing at the bottom of a hill. Just there was nothing nothing else to focus on apart from watching that deer through the scope. Yeah, and that that was that was it. There was there was nothing else in in it to worry about at all. So almost like you just you switch off from reality and the bubble goes away.

SPEAKER_10: 2:05:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So no, I can't thank you enough for today. It was um it was good looking into this world and having a bit of a better understanding um to when people do ask me these questions.

SPEAKER_05: 2:06:06

But actually, being out with the smock, you've worn your jacket. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd say there's no major headaches with it. The noise, there was probably more noise of us moving across the clear fell and the twigs than the jacket actually made.

SPEAKER_10: 2:06:19

Yeah, I mean it's the cord jural ones that people have asked me about, the the Churchill smock. Um, but then it's it's exactly that, isn't it? When it's raining, um and the sort of distances and the other like background noise. I I think I could probably say confident, not probably, I can definitely say confidently now, uh yeah, they'll they'll they'll do your artist all the time. Exactly. I think the only thing is something you're gonna wear unless you're kicking it down.

SPEAKER_05: 2:06:44

The only time it's gonna get hot potentially is if you're having to do physical exercise. Like we came up that hill, we came up that hill quite quickly. No, there's no major sweat on it. It wasn't like we were pushing too hard. But if if you were wearing something that maybe didn't breathe as well, you might just have to open a zip or something like that.

SPEAKER_10: 2:07:03

And again, we've got the two-way zips for exactly that. You can open it up at the bottom. So um, no, it was it was a really good experience eye opening, um, and it's given me a really good um bit of knowledge to move forward. And how surprise just yeah. Far and the raw on the range was cool as well. It's yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 2:07:26

It's a different different way of life, isn't it? It's a slightly if you've never looked in on it from a one angle, to come in and do it from something like you've come in from a totally different position, it gives you a a whole different perspective of how it works.

SPEAKER_10: 2:07:43

Yeah, it really does.

SPEAKER_05: 2:07:44

It really does. And you've got to scratch the bellies of three spaniels at the same time. Yeah, I'm gonna do it. So, um, yeah, we're gonna kind of draw this to an end. I'm just gonna go and dig in my freezer and dig a load of venison out for Jacob to take back with him. Yeah, and um, and thank you very much for listening and thanks for coming up and seeing me.

SPEAKER_10: 2:08:03

Yeah, no, it's been good. Thank you for today. God bless, God save the king.

SPEAKER_05: 2:08:23

I uh hope you enjoyed that recording. It certainly takes a little bit more effort to to get them done. They're a little bit longer. We had, as I say, over four hours of audio to to cut down there. But um should be some really interesting bits. Obviously, we get to know Jacob a bit more. I think the the the take-home part of that is just in the last sort of ten minutes when he's actually completely real switched off from the real world, he left his phone in the van, and he had that almost epiphany of wow, I've completely stopped, and I'm just in the moment. And I think a lot of people, that's what deer stalking is all about. And uh yeah, hopefully we'll get a few more people converted over and they'll they'll see that way. But for now, I'm gonna leave it there. It's uh it's been a long listen, and we'll catch you on the next one. Probably the next one will be twenty twenty six when it gets released. So we'll see you in the new year.