79 We Can Disagree About Meat And Still Talk with Marc Burrows

Vegan. Hunter. Mostly vegetarian. If you think those words can’t sit in the same room without a fight, this conversation will surprise you. We’re joined by Mark, an author and stand-up comedian who once went fully vegan, then slid back toward an 80% vegetarian life, and he’s candid about why: ethics, habit, comfort, lockdown, travel, and the simple fact that food is never just food.

We talk about the part of veganism that rarely gets airtime the quieter middle, where people genuinely care about animal welfare and sustainable eating but still live inside an industrial food system built for scale, speed, and low prices. Mark breaks down what pushed him toward a plant-based diet, why realistic meat substitutes exist (and why that’s not hypocrisy), and why cheese and milk can be surprisingly emotional and physical turning points. From our side, we bring a field-to-plate view of ethical meat, hunting, deer management, and what traceability looks like when you can account for the whole animal.

Then we zoom out to the biggest scandal almost everyone ignores: food waste. We get into freeganism, supermarket throwaways, recipe boxes, and the uncomfortable truth that the most unethical meal might be the one that never gets eaten at all. We also keep it grounded in reality: not everyone can afford “perfect” food, and any honest conversation about climate impact and food standards has to include cost, access, and time.

If this gave you a new angle, subscribe, share it with someone who’d normally disagree, and leave a review so more people can find the show. What does “responsible eating” mean to you?

Transcript

Welcome And Season Catch-Up

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Outdoor Gibbon Podcast. On this one, we are going to talk to Mark. He is he was a vegan. He's kind of bouncing between the two, but it's an interesting conversation, and I hope you enjoy it. Again, I've blinked, and all of a sudden, we are at the end of June. I don't know how this happened. I think the last time I spoke to you all, I was sat in a hotel room in the wonderful city of Lithuania. I was just on the Pulstar Pro staff meeting, and all of a sudden that feels like it was yesterday, but actually it was over well, it was over six weeks ago. Time is flying by. I suppose with all the stuff that's going on in my life, everything has been a bit manic. But it's the Scottish Game Fair, it is literally round the corner, it's three days away. So I will be heading down there. And in some fantastic news, I didn't even know this was happening. I have been nominated for an award. Uh it's the influencer of 2026, it's with the Scottish Country Tourism Awards in association with Basque. I didn't even know that I'd been nominated. So whoever nominated me, thank well, actually, all the people that nominated, thank you ever so much, because obviously I got shortlisted. There are four super contenders nominated for this, all with an individual skill that is brilliant. But it's so nice that the Outdoor Given podcast has been recognised for what it does. Uh, sharing knowledge about Scotland, sharing knowledge about stalking, hunting, all of that stuff. So again, thank you ever so much whoever who the for the people you guys that have put me forward. That's all I can say. Where are we in the year? That's the usual thing I bring up. Well, it's striving ahead, it's almost coming. Well, mid-summer almost. We've had the longest day. The days are drawing in, it's crazy. I haven't been out properly for Roebuck. Uh, my plan is after I've recorded this podcast, I'm actually heading out to see whether I can find anything. The cover is incredibly high. It's gonna be a challenge. The weather's been wild. Uh was down in London last week, 40 degree temperatures. Back up here, it's a pleasant 24 today. Again, we've just had a huge, massive downpour of rain. So it's all over the place. We're definitely not suffering the temperatures you guys are down south, or wherever you're listening in the world, you might be even hotter than we are, but we've had some scorching temperatures within the UK. I don't know what that's doing to deer movement, it'll be really interesting to find out. I know I tried going stalking while I was in the south of England, and it was horrendous. I had horse flies all over me, trying to wear a t-shirt wasn't the best plan. I wasn't really geared up for it. I did see a a badger literally walk in front of me about five yards. He was obviously hot because he went to the river. So it's just absolutely crazy. But the season is racing by, we've got to get our pheasant pen ready, ready for our polster come in. I was literally looking at the diary and looking at pre-recordings and old recordings and stuff like that, and I literally can't believe that 12 months has come round. This time last year, I was gearing up to go to schoon to do a load of recordings for the GWCT. I do have some of them, I am still trying to clean up the audio because unfortunately, the PA system down there was absolutely dreadful, and trying to record stuff off microphones through their PA, etc. etc., it really didn't work. Hopefully, at some point when I actually manage to get those fully cleaned up, we'll be able to bring those podcasts to you. However, we have got all of the content from the stalking show to come, so that should hopefully be something that's really interesting. We've still got to get a few of those chats, the especially the head shooting one, approved, and hopefully they're happy for it to go out, and then you can all catch up on that. Watch this space. What are we gonna be doing later on in the year? Well, August is not far away, the start of the season. I can't believe it's just it it is just this year. This year is a blur. But we'll write 2026 off. 27 will be a completely different game changer of a year and everything going forward, so watch watch what's gonna happen. Let's get on and have a listen to this podcast that I recorded back in March with my a friend of mine from university called Mark. He went down the vegan route, vegetarian, meat eating. It's a very interesting conversation about his journey and where he is, but it's not a it's not sort of a a debate. We've we've talked about many things, but I'd love to if there's any feedback or anybody has anything to say, shoot it over, stick us a couple of questions, bang it into the comments, whatever you want to do, but I'd love to hear more. But I'll stop waffling now, we'll go on and have a listen, and I'll catch you at the

Sponsors And Quick Announcements

SPEAKER_01 5:22

end. The Outdoor Given Podcast is proudly sponsored by the Shooting and Hunting Academy, an online training platform and UK registered learning provider that provides a host of accredited and nationally available courses and masterclasses delivered by leading industry experts.

Rachel @#Stile 5:40

Hi guys, it's Rachel here from Style, the new social app for field sports and farming. Join our countryside community on the App Store or Google Play. Just search Style Country. Enjoy the show.

Meet Mark Writer And Comedian

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Today I'm joined by an old friend of mine, Mark. Uh, we go probably back about 20 years from a time when we were both students uh back in Loughborough in an instance department, I think. That's about right, isn't it? 20 years. Oh god, 20 years. Well, it's probably even more than that, but it is about 20 years. It was when time was yeah, I I thought of it, I was sitting here writing notes thinking, 20 plus years ago, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Yeah, it would have been. I I left Loughborough in 2007. I I went to the student union from 2005 to 2004 to 2007. Uh I was assistant entertainments manager, I booked bands, I I handed up, I I organized the flyering, I got pissed and DJed twice a week, and it was one of the most fun jobs I've ever had in my life.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Absolutely. Yeah, so I I was I was the monkey putting all the lights up, making it flash, and do things like that. And uh so that that takes us where we've we've got to. Obviously, we've both gone in different directions and different things in life, and I think um, do you want to tell us a bit about what what you do now? Oh well, I think the main the main difference between us is I've stayed mostly indoors.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Uh that is Yes, yeah. Basically, so um these days I am a uh an author, uh I'm a writer, um, I I write books, I write biographies, uh, I've written a biography of Sir Terry Pratchett, I've written uh books about Mark Boland and David Bowie's friendship in the 60s. I've written a book about Nirvana, uh, I've I wrote a book about Christmas number ones that came out last year that was in itself a Christmas number one. My book on Christmas number ones became Christmas number one. Admittedly, it was Christmas, it was Christmas number one on the um Amazon Kindle chart for music history and history and criticism. But you know, that is still a chart, and I still topped it on Christmas Day. So that's uh that and I'll take that to my grave. Um, and then on top of that, I'm a comedian. I I do stand-up comedy. Uh I tend to turn the books I've written into stand-up shows, kind of comedy lectures almost, and uh I tour them around the country. I do the Edinburgh Festival, um, and uh and between that I do bits and bobs of journalism and uh columns and writing and anything that anyone will pay me for that doesn't involve having to get a real job.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

I like that. It's it's kind of like mine. I've kind of got that real job being self-employed, but also uh obviously enjoy all this other stuff that I get up to, uh, as you as everybody that will be listening to this knows. So this is why I've kind of we've brought this conversation together, because we're probably from now probably as far apart as as you probably could be in terms of the different things that we do.

Why Veganism Felt Necessary

SPEAKER_01 8:50

But the the reason I I I came to you to have a chat was I think you had a different journey, and it was it's one of those topics that that comes up so often, and I think it's become sort of it's made mainstream media love it, and it's that word vegan, and and you did branch off down that line. Can I uh but we'll come back to what what's happened there, but can you just kind of tell me why you you headed off down the route, that route?

SPEAKER_02 9:18

So, yeah, I mean I I I was vegan, I'm not anymore, and we'll talk about that later. Uh and you're right, it's toxic. And I remember once uh having I tried not to have an argument about it, it was on your Facebook page, and somebody mentioned it. And I tried to be like, okay, I'm gonna be reasonable, and I'm gonna be calm, and I'm gonna be like, you know what, it's up to you. Everyone makes their own decisions, these are my reasons. And um, and I think there were people who were reading it who just went who saw almost saw the answers they wanted to see rather than the answers I was actually giving because I was trying to be really calm about it, and it was uh, and then people were getting really angry and irate. My my journey to veganism was pretty simple. Uh like I um and I I'd been vegetarian on and off since I was quite a small child. Um, I I I had a couple of years of being a vegetarian when I was very young, like seven, eight, eight years old, but couldn't keep it up because uh school dinners were terrible. I was, you know, I grew up working class in Leicestershire and I didn't go to a school with particularly good school dinners, and it was either really bland pat lunches or really terrible school dinner food. And in the end, it just it just broke me. And one day my mum was cooking um macaroni and cheese, but she always used to put bacon in it, and she would always do one for me that didn't have bacon in it. And I just came in one day, just really had a really miserable cheese pie for my dinner, and the bacon smelled amazing, and she was like, Do you want some bacon in your macaroni? I was like, Yes, please. Yeah, um, uh, but so but I I returned to it later because I've always fundamentally been uncomfortable with the idea that something has to die for me to eat it, and that that's that it comes down to that really. It's like um it's and this is why I get uncomfortable with talking about it, because I have to hold these true, these two ideas in my head. One, that I'm uncomfortable with the idea that something has to die in order for me to eat, and on the other hand, that I do it anyway, and those two I and I'm that's a conflict that I've constantly got in my head. Um, but uh so I at the time I was in a band with a guy who was in a very militant vegan. Um, and I uh and I'm not saying I let him sort of propagandarize me a bit, but it the the subject come out came up a lot, and and I've I agreed with almost everything he ever said, and I kind of got to the point where where I was like, I I agree with all these things. Like I do agree that stuff shouldn't that that sort of sentient beings that can think and feel shouldn't uh shouldn't have to be killed for me to eat when there are other ways to eat that are especially in this day and age, completely satisfying and delicious. Like that was the problem 20 years ago. It's much easier to be vegan now because there's loads of great vegan options and um um you know some of them are so lifelike that that I know my my girlfriend is vegetarian, my fiance's vegetarian, has never been vegetarian since she was very, very little, and uh can't eat a lot of sort of fake meat substitutes because she finds them too realistic. Um, whereas I love the fact that there are now fake realistic fake meat substitutes because it means I can ha I can eat something that feels satisfying without the guilt. Anyway, so um yeah, I just got to the point where uh all of these facts and figures and things where I was like and and just these basic simple ideas I agreed with and I was like, I'm I can't agree with this, and still eat meat and still uh eat and still eat eggs and cheese and stuff. So I uh in the end I I went being I I thought I'll try it for a month and it was a lot easier than I thought it would be, and I just thought I'm just gonna carry on. Um, and it's I I'm not preachy about it. I try not to be preachy about it because I think everyone makes their own choices. Uh, I think it's and also in a in a in a real in an ideal world, like it's the mechanization and the industrialization that I'm uncomfortable with more than anything else.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

I would agree with I would agree with you on that. And and what was really interesting is let's let's just jump back. I remember that your chat on my Facebook page, and how very much it's almost embarrassing to think that people jump on there straight away. And the word you you put that up, and and I I'd seen you pop in and put your comment on, and how you exactly as you said, you kind of almost got the attack because people that it's a strange one, isn't it? It's the meat eaters and and all the rest of it have one view, and the way I think the press throw it out there doesn't give it a good spin, and uh everybody kind of butts heads. But actually, when you sit down and have a chat with people and and you you get to hear the reasons, I think some people do it purely because exactly like yours, you have a um you've you've got it that you don't want a sentient being an animal or something like that to have to die to feed you. Brilliant, but as you say, you're you were with a a former band member who who was that sort of militant vegan that was that was out there to sort of was preach that to everybody.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

Yeah, very much so. And and he hadn't like an animal rights background, and um and thing is, I I didn't disagree with anything he said. He could he went a bit he went a bit hard for me a lot of the time, but uh it it but it you know it did I didn't disagree with what he was saying. And actually that's always starting, I was saying that it's not almost it's not just about something has to die for me to eat, it's also the industrialization and the mechanisation of it. It's that it's that these are huge scale, huge capitalist um businesses um that where in which animals are treated as products and um and are treated almost as if they're not alive, and you there are better ways of doing it, and I think I would eat I would probably happily not even bother about being vegan if all um if if things if if everything was bought from a nice lovely little farm shop and it was all like super sustainable and um and you know and everything is not just free range but free roaming and all that kind like all that kind of thing I would make me feel a lot more comfortable, I think. But it's the it's the kind of the sort of mechanization, industrialization, full-on capitalist process of it all that also makes me feel uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

I I could well I as from a completely different side of the spectrum to you, obviously as a meat eater, but as a hunter, I completely agree with you. Um and and I think that's where the there is a common ground where the where we should all stand, because it was only yesterday, uh yeah, yesterday I think I was chatting to a friend of mine about this, and you're sat there, and and if you can do the traceability of the piece of whatever you're eating, I think that's really important. And and the comment the comment comes out is you get a lot of people will turn around, and it's not obviously just the vegetarians, the vegans, it's even the meat eaters that we have that discussion with about uh would you be able to uh let's throw it down there. Could you go out and hunt or take the life of what you're eating? And if the answer comes back as no, then you shouldn't be eating it in some ways, is is the way I look at it. It's that it's that responsibility for for what you're about to eat, and it goes through anything. It's like if you're gonna have, I don't know, any product, you kind of need to know where it's come from because you've just said the big industrialization, this whole thing, you don't know what's what's going into your food anymore in many ways.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

Absolutely, and that's and that's true of many plant-based products as well. That's not like a lot of that's not just restricted to no animal products, it's just animal products have a particularly uh uh uh are you know animal products include um something that suffers pain as well in the in the uh in in that mix, so it just makes it worse. But actually, you know, sustainable sustainable food is is a huge thing, and I think it's something we all should take more seriously, and not just from a health point of view, from an environmental point of view, all of that sort of stuff. Um and uh you know, but we don't live in an in a time that's that's as simple as that. We just don't it's really hard to be to to to know that like 200 years ago that would be easy, but 200 years ago it the those those kind of high yield, extremely mechanized, extremely industrialized processes didn't exist. Um, but 200 years ago we had a smaller population and uh to feed, and there's there's loads of different things, and this is an incredibly complicated issue, and it's incredibly complicated for loads of reasons. And I don't need to tell you all this because you all know it, you know it all. But it's it's incomplicated from a social point of view because we spend our entire lives being trained to understand certain ideas, and then to unpick those and to step aside from them is difficult, it's a really difficult thing to do. Um, because it because we are trained from birth by all of the things we learn and all the media we consume to understand things simply, and it's difficult because we don't know these processes. Um, it's it's and there's a there's a distance between the food that's on your table and and the origin of that food that is an intellectual thing that you cannot we do not know the process, and if we don't think about it, maybe that's that feels more comfortable, it feels better, and I'm as guilty about this as anyone. All of this stuff I know intellectually, but have but really tried struggle to unpick in a way that makes me like that, I guess makes me hypocritical because I am as guilty as anybody, and I I know all this stuff. Maybe that's worse that I know all this stuff and I've done this right this research, and I often still do eat these things anyway.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Um, but it's yeah, it's a lot to unpick and a lot to unprogram, and I don't think any of us really has it in us to do that because no, I I I completely agree because I've got a friend who's actually completely the opposite to to obviously being a vegan, and she is purely she works on the carnivore diet, she only eats meat. Um, now that's a completely different story altogether, but we won't come onto that one just yet. But again, that's that's two ends of the spectrum. But just just going back to your journey as a as a vegan, did you find how did you have any health issues?

Health Food Psychology And Real Life

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Was there anything you were struggling with, any deficiencies or anything like that while you were on that that journey where you were? No, never.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

Actually, never. I ate uh uh thing is I've never been a healthy eater. I've I try I'm trying to be now. Um I've never but I've always I've always been somebody who eats too much sugar and too much bread and and too much fried food and too much bad food. I've just always been who I am, too much c I comfort eat. Um as I said, it's actually been a lot it you can you can comfort eat as a vegan quite happily now. Um I never had any health problems uh aside from the ones I would have been having anyway, I suspect, um, from eating the good from eating because sugar isn't isn't vegan and bread isn't vegan, and um and anything uh and you can fry something regardless of where it comes from. Uh but and these days there are plenty of absolutely delicious cakes and puddings and desserts and um and food that is fundamentally not great for you. Um that uh is the that come that is made from a in a plant-based way. So but I never I never had any health health issues that resulted from having a plant-based diet ever. I I I was relatively and still am relatively healthy. Um, you know, I took vis I took vitamin supplements to be on the safe side, uh, which I think is a sensible thing to do, but I think it's a sensible thing for anyone to do, regardless of what your diet is.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Yeah, no, I the only reason I ask is I had a friend of mine, while I was obviously down in Leicester running my business, who worked for me for a while and and he he went on the same journey down to the uh down the vegan path. He was quite uh a health fanatic, so really was in the gym doing lots and body was his temple and all the rest of it. And out of the blue, I had a uh a message from him um basically saying his body was really struggling because he couldn't produce uh a certain amino acid or something like that. Obviously, being a gym goer, he needed to eat this. Uh and his he approached me to ask me whether or not because he knew what I did and the reason the meat that we would produce from, for example, the deer, the venison, and all the rest of it. He was like, Is there any way that you can send this down to Leicestershire? And this was again 15 years down the line. Um, and and that was it, I was really I was interested, and I kind of tried to poke a bit more into that, and he just kind of said that it is basically his body or he couldn't get the the correct amount of um whatever it was, the amino acid or something like that from the food that he was eating. He was probably down a slightly different line with the the diet trying to be super healthy so avoiding the sugars and the carbohydrates and all the rest of it. But I I just found that really interesting. Hence the reason for for asking that question.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Well my my brother is my younger brother is uh is a vegan chef he's a vegan food expert um uh which is another reason I went vegan but although yeah because my and he it was and he it took him a while to make that jump actually because we we have the same background but he had a good his his wife is was vegan and for a while uh and she kind of helped him and encouraged him and he's incredibly into his food and he's the fittest person I know he's the healthiest person I know like he's psych he does like like London to Paris bike rides and um and uh is generally in really good nick as it is and I kind of there's a science to all this you can be incredibly healthy and and fit and stacked and have a a plant-based diet and you can be a big fat blob and have a plant-based diet and vice and and both of those things can be true of somebody who eats a a meat and dairy rich diet i I don't I don't know the science of it but it's the like it it's kind of almost it almost feels like those issues are sort of a sort of are um to the side although as you say you you know somebody who struggled and mate and there's there's a lot of medical psychological and medical reasons as well like I'm sure you can replace most of the protein uh you get from meat in other ways but if you don't do that and you don't sort of look at it scientifically you're probably and then you then you're doing lots of exercise you're gonna be in trouble. Psycho the psychology of it is really interesting as well for example people with eating disorders or with psychological dependencies on food um will always struggle and probably shouldn't look at having restrictive diets because that is going to cause because there is a cute psychological tangle there with food that you bet is best not to lob another problem into.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Of course absolutely I it was quite interesting actually right right at the beginning there you were saying your mum used to make you macaroni and cheese and then put bacon bits for the others and it was the it was obviously I think it's always that's one

Meat Substitutes Bacon And Cheese

SPEAKER_01 24:10

of the the the guilty pleasures isn't it it's that the smell of bacon it is yeah it it certainly has that lure and and I I remember many friends at at uni that were vegetarians apart from when there was bacon available and suddenly all of a sudden it doesn't count.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

It's like bacon is the is the last has been the last fake meat to crack because um like uh sausages cracked that years ago there's loads of good sausages uh of good vegetarian sausages I mean no one's claiming these things are as good obviously but there are there are plenty of of decent vegetarian sausage options that taste as good as a cheap as a cheap sausage with meat in it there are chick yeah chicken replacements for years now there are plenty of good chicken replacements soy based beef replacements and stuff that um that sometimes if you didn't know you wouldn't you wouldn't even realize if they're cooked in certain kind if if they're in a curry or something. Bacon has always been the the one that was that was hardest to do and recently there has been some good some good bacon there's a there's a company called This Is and they do like this is chicken this is bacon this is whatever and they had they do a very good bacon a very good vegan bacon um that uh if you've never eaten bacon for example like my partner she loves it um if you have eaten bacon you know it's not really bacon but it is close enough that if you were if you were having a craving it would scratch the itch smells like but it smells like frazzles but okay but that works it does work it's got the consist it's the consistency though the consistency is the hardest thing to get right and um yeah they have they they've they've cracked a lot of it some stuff they still haven't cheese is really difficult um I it's one of the things I missed the most really good cheeses is something I missed when I was vegan um that was and there's never been a truly satisfying equivalent for that there are vegan cheeses some of them are fine some of them are quite nice as if you kind of accept them as a sort of nut paste as opposed to a cheese um you know they have on on their own terms they're a nice sort of cashew pate but uh yeah I I was gonna say it I suppose if you if you leave the the the the omnivore position and you go into being a vegan it's probably very difficult and that's I can now understand I I always understand why there's all of these things that they clack they call bacon chicken substitute because it's it's probably very difficult to to actually just go do you know what I'm gonna just eat nuts and mushrooms all day long and and and but and that's probably tricky isn't it yeah if you've been raised eating meat and and also like the thing is no one is arguing that this stuff doesn't taste nice this is one of the things that is one of the biggest things if you turn vegan or turn vegetarian is you're turning is you're turning off food that you've eaten your entire life and that tastes good and that we as a as a culture are very good at preparing and cooking. Yes. Like we've got thousands of years of learning how to cook a side of beef and thousands of years of learning how to smoke meat and um and and a 20th century worth of building of building in foreign culture uh food for food from other cultures and and um and incorporating it with British produce to to create delicious things and and just going oh I don't want those anymore you you still want them they're still taste no you never said they don't taste nice um which is why I always think the most disingenuous um argument I you hear when people talk about um veganism especially my my brother came up with these um vegan vegan wings they were made of um uh they were made of jackfruit uh which has got a very meaty consistent consistency and he kind of created this he was trying to basically trying to create a a fried chicken feel um and by through spices and marinades and crumbs and and stuff and he put in a sugar cane stick in the middle that acted like a bone like a chicken wing so you can pick it so you could pick it up. And um Piers Morgan he had him on Piers Morgan's show and Piers Morgan was uh came out with this massive diatribe of why would anyone who's vegan want a fake bone in their food and why would you want food that looks and feels like meat uh when you when you profess to not like not want to eat meat and it misses the point entirely. The point is that you're trying to trick yourself into thinking you're eating meat you're trying to get the experience of of eating meat and the textures and the flavours that you've that you've been used to your entire life and that are um indisputably delicious and satisfying so of course you'll want to try and replicate them and I think going why on earth would would a vegan want something that looks and feels like meat is completely the wrong question because it it it's to me it's really obvious why you would it's different if you've never eaten meat if you're somebody who's been vegetarian since they were very young and because they don't like the idea of flesh for example my partner doesn't like the idea of eating flesh. She associates it with her own flesh and with pet with her pets and doesn't just doesn't like the idea of eating something that was ever alive in which case eating meat substitutes still feels weird to her but if you've grown up eating meat I don't see the re I can I totally understand why you'd want to eat something that looks and tastes exactly like it but doesn't have any of the ethical ethical problems that put you off it in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

I I I can I can actually I can yeah I can see that so um yeah I I get it completely obviously I know in in the family it's like there's been comments that my wife would have put out there once upon a time was if I wasn't the hunting and bringing the food home and knowing exactly where it came from and filling the freezer then her attitude is well she wouldn't eat meat because exactly as you said at the beginning the industrialization process of of it and I don't agree with some of it as well it's I I've I work on some of these chicken farms and things like that and and you see it and you're just like you you wouldn't want to eat chicken it's it's it's absolutely horrendous.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

And of course it's a scale isn't it it's a spectrum because on on one end you have you have what is essentially putting an animal into a fact into a factory process and you know the worst it can be and the the the stuff that gets that that results in the cheapest of the cheap chicken nuggets uh and um and then on the other hand you you you have kind of small a small slaughterhouse that that does things as in a in small ways as ethical as they can as you can and then everything in between or or some actually no the far end is somebody who like you who's going out and hunting but in the middle there's a whole gradient of things and you have to sort of work out where your tolerance is.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Yeah and I think that's the thing I think I think the problem we have is and you touched on it earlier with the population has got so great and the demand for cheap easy access food which literally is always available um is is what drives this machine to keep going you do you mentioned 200 years ago obviously well it's not even that far back you just have to think the end of end of the war end of the second world war I think we had Dig for Britain which was basically everybody converted their gardens to allow them to grow vegetables. Nowadays no not many people grow vegetables nobody's really got a garden anymore.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

No it's uh and I it would be lovely to live in a world where you keep your own chickens and and all your eggs come from your own chickens and uh every once in a while um what are the you decide one of those chickens is probably getting on a bit and it's time but it's had a good life and you know and that sort of thing and you grow your own veg and that's all lovely but it's all the darling buds of May and it's not how we live now.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Society doesn't support it. I it's like I I flew I was flying back last night and I flew over London and I've got a fantastic photo of it and you just look at the sprawl and you're just like there is no way that you could London didn't look like this a hundred years ago it was tiny and there was lots of green places and and and it's just it's now just a a monster that keeps growing and you think how much food has to go through there.

Food Waste And Freeganism

SPEAKER_01 32:10

I think the big problem we do have though which which needs addressing in this country is our as our wastage issue because it it doesn't matter whether you eat meat or whether you're um a plant-based diet the the amount of waste that seems to just be generated through the process of supermarkets not selling it blah blah blah all all of those things it is it's crazy and and I think that drives this supply chain because people just don't have they they it doesn't matter which way you're looking at it there's no responsibility for food.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

Absolutely I got it's an ongoing argument in my house of me got me going through the cover the the fridge and going you bought this a month ago and it's gone off and you didn't eat it. This is that that like and getting really annoyed about it. My partner's always going you love it don't you you love going through the fridge and finding stuff that's out of date you really get a kick out of it don't you uh and um maybe she's right I don't know but it is like it is like that that it is one of I think it it is it something that is quite almost unforgivable as a society the amount of food we throw away like when in a in a world full of hungry people um and the there's a there's um a philosophy called freeganism I don't know if you're aware of freeganism which is okay explain do you want to explain that one? So freeganism basically means uh you eat you eat stuff that would have been thrown away you eat surplus food. Okay and and that means that everything you eat is technically ethical because um if you don't eat it no one's going to eat it and that mean and you get a lot of people who in America it's known as dumpster diving but it's essentially getting stuff like robbing the stuff out the back of the supermarket that's just been thrown away um stuff that is perfectly edible but because of the um regulations around food means that they it it's not it can't be sold anymore and um and people who who have freegan diets uh basically they will eat meat because the because this particular bit of meat isn't gonna be eaten any is is going to waste and I I genuinely believe that there is no such thing as an unethical way of eating uh the most unethical food item in the world is that is the one that's never eaten. Exactly yeah absolutely if if you're eating something that is never gonna if you're eating something that otherwise would have been wasted then then all other considerations I think are go are off because because you may as well um the word like I'm not comfortable with something be something enduring a mechanized death for my dinner I'm even more I'm even less comfortable with something enduring a mechanized death that's never that uh that then creates something that is never eaten at all.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

And I I think I I would I again there would agree with you. We're very lucky up here in Scotland. We've so our co-op will produce um if there's a load of stuff that doesn't get sold they actually put it into like a food bank outside the school so it's not you don't have to do the dumpster diving you can go there and and it's there for people to take so it is really nice that virtually nothing from our little local shop is ever wasted. If it gets reduced it gets sold and if people don't take it then it just makes its way up outside the school and you'll always see a post on one of the Facebook pages going oh there's a load of this or there's this and this and that's available and I think uh the next plan we're actually going to do um as part of the estate kind of thing once once it's all working and up and running and I've got all my necessary tickets is we're actually going to supply into that we're gonna put a coal box out and sort of once a month we're gonna pack it full of just venison mints a high grade mince that if you want it you can take it away. There's nothing the nice bit about it is it's sustainable, it's local it's the deer have to be managed for us. It's it's not a mechanical process. The Outdoor Gibbon podcast is proudly sponsored by the Shooting and Hunting Academy. Through the Academy shooters, hunters and those involved in the use of firearms can gain an in-depth and unique level of training that enables them to shoot better, behave more effectively in the field up their strike rates as well as learning new skills. Crucially those new to deer stalking the Academy also offers the Proficient Deer Stalker certificate level one the PDS 1 a deer management certificate that is nationally recognised and accredited both by Lantra and UK rural skills. Visit the Shooting and hunting academy to find out more. Let's get back to the show there's nothing to to prey on the deer because we don't have those big animals and reintroducing those big animals would like wolves and and lynxes will just be another that's a whole nother topic we could talk about. But it means that the deer at some point has to be taken off the land because otherwise the the numbers increase and you get starvation and nobody wants to see an animal suffering. So if we if we manage our our our population correctly then we can put that product out for people to take away and actually if they're struggling because in this day and age we've talked about this even meat or or vegan or high quality plant-based products are expensive. So it it's again it's you end up pushing the population to eat the cheapest food if they can't afford to buy it. So my my my sort of plan was to say well here's a high quality product and it's free.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

And I I honestly can't in I I can't I know people who would object to that on on animal rights grounds and I think and I can't and whilst I I I I'm not going to say I necessarily disagree with like that it's like they're welcome to that opinion and I understand it. Like I said this is on a spectrum this is on a gradient I don't agree with having hard lines on these issues um and I I hadn would would have no problem with that blind if we if I lived in a in a culture if I lived in a in a community where there is where everyone's eating like free range sustain sustainably farmed um roaming animals uh that are culled uh that are culled ethically and um and we know that there is no uh that that there is no chemical involvement in their diets and there's no chemical treatment of the meat and and like that would be amazing I'd love that I and like we'd everybody would be would be eating healthier more sustainably i there is literally no downside but um unfortunately it is not and then and the the one big question that always comes up whenever you talk about any form of industry in the 21st century is how does it scale and unfortunately that doesn't scale and it's really it doesn't scale and it's a really sad thing and yet yeah we have it it it it throws that topic up we have the largest deer population ever in the UK at the moment um and you know what the the the worst part about that is most of the meat that's produced from those deer populations unfortunately because it doesn't make it to the supermarket shelves because it doesn't tick the boxes for the supermarkets we actually ship it out of this country and it goes into Europe. That's ridiculous and and it's such a it's such a weird and again it's socialization we're not we're not social uh we're not socialized to eat venison we can it's not it's not part of our of our diet if we're used to eating it because and yes Scandinavia it is it is an incredibly common meat. Yes uh and it's it's such an odd thing and I I and it that's the thing that that's the stuff that really depresses me.

Lockdown And Falling Off Veganism

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Right so I'm gonna pull us back in because obviously you you mentioned at the beginning you you've come out of that that vegan brand l it's I I hate it it's a label isn't it and it it's one of those it's a weird one that everybody throws out I'm a vegan but you've come out of that was what was the reasoning that you you kind of pulled yourself back out of that and went it let's be back to being an omnivore uh it was lockdown and at the time my my my ex-wife uh had a um she had a a medical condition that meant that a diet uh that she had a a kidney condition that was meant that a uh um a diet with a lot of meat in it was would can be beneficial for her and so and also that was a weird time for everybody and I think everyone everyone felt back on comfort and the stuff that they enjoy and you kind of like every we we we were leading such restricted lives that loosening some of the restrict self-imposed restrictions um was a little treat for everybody and I just kind of fell off the wagon uh it was easier because my partner had to have a meat diet to also eat the same food as her and we looked into kind of um uh recipe boxes that were that could list where they where their ingredients came from so we were getting really good sustainable high quality ingredients and um and I just fell off the wagon and and then as with any wagon uh once they start rumbling off they're a lot harder to catch up uh and I think that's true of almost anything you ever do like if you it it's much much harder to to start a diet again it once you've bit what it's hard it's easy enough to start a diet the first time but once you give it up it's much harder to get back on it. Same with going to the gym it's the same with almost anything that makes you feel like you're restricting yourself a bit you you get out of practice. And since then I just haven't got back into it. My like I said my my fiance is vegetarian um and we don't eat we don't really have meat in the house. Occasionally me and my stepdaughter will treat ourselves when um my partner's working at night and working working in a night shift because she works she works behind a bar and we'll get a takeaway for just the two of us. But I broadly we eat vegetarian at home and we eat very well and there's you know I never really particularly feel like I'm missing out on anything. And we have nice food again recipe boxes are great. Recipe boxes are really good because they they usually track where the ingredients come from um you're you know you're getting high quality stuff and you're being given just enough of it to cook the meal that you want to cook so there's not so there's no waste. I'm a really big believer in them.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

They're not cheap though which is one of the problems um I'm I'm lucky and I can afford to get recipe boxes but um and then uh when I'm on the road as a comedian uh I uh I take it on a case by case basis I know you have to because actually it's really interesting because it is difficult and and I I travel and and I know what it's like you'll be you could be on the road for hours to get to a get to a gig or a location and all of a sudden you get there and the menu is pretty limited.

SPEAKER_02 42:49

Yeah it can be really bad service stations are dreadful as well unless you're going through to um to bay or is it Tibet T Bay Tibet yeah yeah yeah or Gloucester which is which which anyone who does a lot of driving knows is knows are the best services service stations in the world uh but um generally speaking uh yeah it's it's hard to have a good diet on the road it's hard to have a good diet of any sort on the road um so I you know I I I mostly I don't eat meat a lot uh I try and make sure when I do I eat I eat stuff that is worth it and I always kind of think to myself well this is this cow would have been happy with this like this is this is delicious which is make which is very frivolous and is the kind of thing that makes militant vegans furious if you say it to their face but then again uh they tend to be quite a joyless bunch.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

That's the topic isn't it I think I think a lot of people can be a vegan but they're not there to to to force the the matter home. And it's the same with everything but it just seemed to be that the there's that small minority I think it goes with everything that minimum Militant group that really do want you to know that you're doing everything wrong, but unfortunately they they seem to they seem to shout the loudest and they seem to put themselves out there, don't they?

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Well, yeah, but then again, that's that's evangel that's evangelism for you, isn't it? And it also I kind of you gotta you kind of think, well, I don't think you're wrong. The preaching that you it's preachy and it's irritating, but it's also not like most of the arguments are correct, uh, and or at least I are resonate. And it is that thing where you kind of go, evang evangelical Christians um uh have a responsibility to preach at you because um as far as they're concerned, if they don't convert you, you are going to hell. So they're doing everything they can to make sure that you to save your soul, and they genuinely think that um that like it's a that it's it's an absolute tragedy if you don't listen. And I think for a lot of um animal rights activists and militant and the more militant end of veganism, it is that like they they really really they're not just doing it to annoy people, they're doing it because they really really believe it, and that they and they have right on their side, and um and it and it it's off-putting, it is off-putting.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Uh yeah, it it's a weird one though. It it really is, because I think obviously there'll be a lot of people that listen to this that are um very much the hunting world and and things like that, as well as uh people that have of different different walks of life, and we we'll get we've got people all over the world that'll be listening to this. I know that because I look at the stats, and it'll be interesting to see feedback that comes from it. But I think, yeah, as we say, we've had you can look at it from both angles, and and and I completely respect the angle that you came in at the uh and and it's not you're not trying to drive home. Yes, you as you say, you've come away from the vegan, you're still probably in the vegetarian group now. Would you deem yourself? Mostly.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

I would say, yeah. I mean, I I I don't have a I don't have a hard and fast rule, so I don't put a label on it. I mostly I would say I have an 80% vegetarian diet, and um if I have something that isn't vegetarian, it tends to be either as a real treat, like something really nice in a restaurant, or because the alternatives are really bad, and I may as well go uh and like I'm not gonna eat the hummus sandwich which they've which is with the crust cut off that I can see curling in the corner of the of the cafe. Because actually, do you know what? Do you know what? I'll I'll have an I'll have the BLT. Uh, but it's so or I'll have that like at a funeral I went to last week. The the veget the vegetarian options for the wake were terrible. They were really, really they weren't appetizing, and then there was a really delicious looking sausage roll, and these lovely so they clearly home-baked, clearly like you know, made properly. And it's like that looks absolutely delicious. I feel like I'm gonna have that. So I I reckon I have an 80% vegetarian diet, probably about a six a 40 or 50% vegan diet. Like we I don't we don't have cow's milk at home. That's an interesting one, actually. Um, because that when I went back to eating meat and dairy, um, I suddenly found cow's milk to be too rich. I and it's not because I disagree with the with drinking cow's milk, it's because I like that's the one thing that I don't really like anymore. Because I got used I got used to not drinking it. And um now if even a now even a glass of semi-skill milk feels a bit like drinking cream. Uh it's just it I find it a bit a bit too heavy and a bit too sickly. And that there's nothing, there's that's no, there's no sort of value judgment there. It just it's just a preference thing. And it's that I find really interesting. So I I tend to have plant-based milks because um I've the uh because I've yeah, the actual milk um has become unpalatable for some reason. It's the one, it's the one thing that that got left behind when I returned.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

That's really interesting. It's it's and it's always interesting to see how different people have different ways. And as you just said, I'm I'm literally drinking a cup of tea here, and I think we joked just before we came on air, you were making a cup of tea and you went with oat milk, and I'm drinking a a cup of tea with with full fat

Quality Food And Lab Grown Fears

SPEAKER_01 48:10

organic milk because I have a thing, even I like milk, uh, but I need to know that the milk I'm drinking is not something that's stuck in a barn that's being fed the wrong type of food. Uh and and I will drink organic milk, I'll pay that little bit extra because at least I know that my cow is is getting something decent to eat. That's the most in important part.

SPEAKER_02 48:34

And I love cheese, I really do love cheese. Uh, and I I never buy cheap cheese. I never buy, I always go, I'm always looking for really good brands, stuff that stuff that tells you about where it comes from. And and for the always, that's always the nicer stuff as well. Like that's always good. The nice thing about that about those about those products is uh because they're seen and they're seen and marketed as premium. So they have to taste premium too.

SPEAKER_01 49:00

It is it is crazy though, isn't it? I think, but I think if you actually if you strip the labels away from everything we've talked about, the the industrial mechanization of the entire food industry in the developed world has basically produced uh an animal that just has to be fed. It doesn't matter whether it's manufacturing plants or whether whether it's putting plant-based materials through there, lab grown uh protein, or we're putting um animals through the system. Because we we seem to produce we need to produce so much food to sustain this ever-growing population that seems to be out of control, uh yeah, we're we're running out of resources in many ways. So we're we're we're we're just filling it up as you you hit the nail on the head earlier on the talk about sugar and things like that. And I think that's the thing to make this food that's that is on the cheaper end work, you pump it full of sugars, and that can even be in the same case as a really poor quality piece of chicken. You make it plump by filling it with water and salts and sugars to to get that same effect, but it is it's that ever-growing need to keep supplying food to people.

SPEAKER_02 50:18

Yeah, and the problem is that that uh like that kind of um that economic reality and that capitalist reality is very much very um prevalent in the United States. Um, we've all seen stories about you know chlorinated chicken and things like that. Um food standards are much lower there, uh, and they are much more based around supply and demand and around the the kind of economic realities. And you know, if you and if you've ever had the American what Americans call cheese, uh you will understand that the quality is not high. Eggs, if you look at how they how how eggs are produced in America, eggs in America have to be kept in the fridge. Yes, because the way they're the way they're treated removes the protection that the um is natural that that is naturally on an egg.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

I I I think I think it it just makes me smile because every time I have this conversation, my mind automatically jumps to the films like like well the matrix where they're eating deadlifts sitting there in the real world and they're eating a bowl of nutrient or whatever it is, that snot, like amino acids, and then it flies off to Wally, the next car the next film, where literally the world is run by one big supermarket and everybody's drinking a shake, and it's just like is that where we're heading at the end of the day? It it's it's almost to that point, isn't it? Where literally it doesn't matter as long as you get it in a in a juice form, that's it, that's all you need.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

Yeah, um depressingly, I think there are elements uh elements of reality in those sort of in those um nightmarish dystopian ideas. I think there are probably elements that we will be walking be moving towards. It's like I'm I'm I'm just gonna nip down the um I'm just gonna nip down the advert market so I can watch some adverts because that'll um by doing that I'll get enough uh Jeff Bezos points in my account in order to buy today's protein shake.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Yeah, pretty much, and and and it's a really scary thought that actually there like yourself, you've got you you say I go out and I buy a quality piece of cheese because that's what I want, but you're getting to that point where literally we could end up, and I think it's already been in the press and things like that, about lab-grown meats and lab-grown proteins, and you're just like, Wow, this is this is getting scary now because suddenly all of a sudden the the the cheaper end of the food range doesn't matter whether it's the plant-based, like the hydroponic side of things, or or whether they're just going to grow the proteins, this this could become actually food that people are eating, and then there is no responsibility. There's no we don't know where it comes from, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:54

And I I love the idea of what you're doing. I love the idea of being really connected to the source of the food we're eating and to understand every step of the process. And I I agree, if you're gonna eat meat, you should go you you should be prepared to go out and and punch a boar in the face, like uh and just I mean I wouldn't recommend it, it doesn't look very healthy.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

But I wouldn't I wouldn't do that, but but it's that it's that idea to be able to say, well, it even if if you have the responsibility, I I can yeah, I get blood on my hands, and uh I'm sure I could have there'll be a militant vegan that might listen and and give me a load of grief about it. But the thing I can say is that everything from that animal, and I've done I have done it, I've taken a deer, I've shot the deer, I've processed the skin and turned it into a rug, I've taken the bones and I've fed my dogs, I've taken anything else out of it that I can use. I rendered all the fat out of it to make tallow, and we ate the entire deer. There was and any waste that came from it, any offal, I placed back out into the environment for the other scavengers to eat. So in in many ways, I can say, well, that is there's 100% traceability on that.

SPEAKER_02 54:09

Yeah, completely. And I I know there are vegans who'd have a problem with it, and I like you say, but I don't think I I ever could because it feels it, I don't know, it just it feels like a true way to live.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

And not everybody can do it, and I don't want everybody to do it, but it's it's one of those things that my process is as long as pe I've I've taken somebody out and educated them and shown them how it works, I'm happy for them to buy the meat off me or to be part of the process. Um, but I think that's really important, and but I think we touched we touched on it a few times. It's it's taking responsibility. If you can't take the responsibility, but you're you're gonna shout at everybody and tell them that vegans are all stupid or vegetarians are all stupid, and you're gonna tuck into a cheap McDonald's burger. Well, actually, you'd probably be better off eating the vegetarian option because you you shouldn't be eating that meat burger because you don't have any respon you haven't taken any responsibility for the process of that that product.

SPEAKER_02 55:05

I also think uh everyone should be shown a slaughterhouse and go, yeah, this is this go that this is the industrial this is the industrial reality of what you're eating. Uh just so you know, just so you know, just so you're aware of it.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

Do all that information what you like. No, and and and actually, do you know I think it's really interesting that topic you just you've mentioned there, because a friend of mine's a teacher, and she showed children about things that she's done, like the hunting, and she got hauled over the coals about it because you can't show children uh where product comes from or where things come from. So my daughter would take into school like a pheasant wing and uh and a deer antler and a foxtail, and people would ask questions. We're in a rural community, so it's not too bad. But somebody said, Well, you could never do that in like an inner city school. It's like, but actually, I think once upon a time at school, children were taught what animals became, but we've taken that, we've we've removed that, and and you ask a small child, what what's that? and they go, Oh, my meat just comes on a plastic tray. And I think that's always the comment that it's that it's there, there's no connection.

SPEAKER_02 56:17

I mean, maybe I mean I grew up in rural Leicestershire in the 80s, so maybe I've got a I and you know, I I lived in a farming community, not particularly it's not a particularly picturesque one, but I did grow up in the countryside, so I kind of do have a sort of idea of this. But there is a famous saying, never ask how the sausage is made. And uh it's a and it's a good metaphor for a lot of things, but it's also a good literal truth.

SPEAKER_01 56:39

Yeah, and and I I get it, I completely get it. And I think I think that's just one of the things. I think the disconnect, it doesn't matter whether you eat meat or you don't eat meat, but the disconnect of how that meal is turned up on your plate, ignorance is bliss, and it I think yeah, I think a lot of people don't actually care. They just they'll eat it, and that that's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

And then I mean we're going right, we're kind of going around

Privilege Nuance And Direction Of Travel

SPEAKER_02 57:05

in circles, but it does bear also mentioning a lot of people don't have a choice because that's the food they can afford, and that's the food that um, and that is the most the most economic way to feed us. I'm I'm feed a family. I'm I'm very lucky. I've got a small family, uh, I do all right for myself. Um my partner works as well. We have part-time custody of one uh of one times teenage girl who we have every other week. Yeah, we don't uh it's it's easy for us to pick and choose, and easy for us to buy to to to eat well and to buy good and to buy good produce. I I I'm I have the luxury that I can um that I can do that. Um but there are families that like growing up my family couldn't do that. Growing up, my parents had to feed has to feed a family of five on a truck driver's diet, which is on a truck driver's wages, which is not an easy thing to do. And I'm I'm pretty sure my mum was never really considering um the origin of the of the uh cheap of the cheapest sausages NASDAQ. Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

That she was gonna make a casserole out of. I get you. Yeah, no, absolutely. So I think I think we could we could go round and round with this, but yeah, it's really interesting to to have had your your chat and to see what where you you obviously went to the vegan route, you've come away from it. What's your what what let's have a just throw the last one out there? What's the future for you? What's sort of the plan? Are you gonna go try and go back down the vegan or just gonna stay on the vegetarian line?

SPEAKER_02 58:30

I would like to think I could go, I would go back to being vegan one day. Um because like I said, I actually I know the arguments and I agree with them, and it is a constant, it is a constant sort of disappointment with myself of knowing these things and uh and acting counter to them anyway. Uh I've always thought one day I I I will finally take the plunge and I'll eat my lat and I'll eat my last steak and have my last cheese sandwich. And but but I try not to torture myself about it. Life is difficult enough as it is. Uh, I am gonna I I do really, really want to make sure that I eat sustainably and that I eat well, and that I um and that I know what I'm putting into my body and I know where it where it comes from. And if I if I if all that happens the rest of my life is I go further and further down that line and I understand that, uh then I won't, you know, I I I won't feel ashamed at the pearly gates. But I still I still feel a bit I still feel a a little bit of a hypocrite because I do um I I do agree with these things and I do I I do think you should be vegan, frankly. Um a friend of mine, a comedian, uh Stuart Goldsmith, incredible comedian, uh he's a climate change specialist, um, comedian, and he always says that the most um the most valuable thing you can do for the environment, and I'm I'm nicking his joke here, so but please go and watch Stuart Stuart Goldsmith, he's amazing. The most valuable thing you can do for your environment is be vegan. Please be vegan. I want you to be vegan, I want you to be vegan. The reason I want you to be vegan is because I'm not. I really like eating meat, and if you do it all, then I can feel better about it. Uh, and I kind of feel that I I told I I really sympathize with that for with that point of view.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:09

Yeah, I and and and I suppose the the way our world is growing and changing, then everything has its place. It's really interesting to get a chat with somebody that's been there and has gone down that route. Um, you're not a militant vegan. We've had a we've had a very nice talk about it. Um, and yeah, I I think I yeah, it's just it's really interesting. And it's really nice to see that you've you're kind of you've going full circle.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:36

Yeah, and um the one thing I think uh it's important to take away from think from these discussions is the importance of nuance and the importance of um uh of understanding um to to be to have a to have warmth and understanding and nuance. Uh these aren't black and white issues. There is a black and white way of looking at it, but I think it's reductive. I think these aren't black and white issues at all. I think they're d they're an issue where you it's okay to to to find your speed. Uh like I said, these things are a spectrum, and you don't have to rush to one end or the other. Um and you don't have the it's a direction of travel. So if you brought to be broadly doing good, broadly eating the right things, broadly being sustainable. And then if if you occasionally take the step back and and um and give in to your craving for a Big Mac, you know, you can let yourself off the hook once in a while. Uh all things in moderation. I just it's it's about the direction of travel, it's about being aware. You don't need to be preachy about it, you have to understand the nuance of the issues, you have to do your own research and find where on that spectrum you're comfortable being. Um, and that is constantly the process that I'm going, doing, and where I'm and what I'm trying to find.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:52

Absolutely. And I and and and I think you've you've hit the nail on the head um because yeah, it and and looking from my side, not everybody has to be the the great white hunter. You can you can still do you could I've I've you could be a vegan and come out and still cold ear. I do know of one, because they know that that process needs to be done, yet for them their main food source, they still work down that route, but they will eat the sustainable meat that they produce, and it it's just yeah, it's it's a really interesting place. So, yeah, it's it's not a I can stand next to you on the train and and we are just two people at the end of the day, and it's not that you've got to ram it down somebody's throat that I'm a meat eater and and you're a you're a vegetarian, it's just you have a conversation, and when you come to have dinner at the the you eat slightly different foods.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:46

Well, this thing is this is a conversation between somebody who understands sustainable food and um and and and and understands in a very direct way the link between the animal in front of them and the meal on their plate, which is you, and me as somebody who has done a lot of research and tries to understand that as well, and tries not and and it's slightly uncomfortable about the idea of something, as I said right at the beginning, being killed for my dinner, right? And that's that conversation we're having. Put this conversation between somebody who's a militant animal rights expert and somebody who um and a multi-billionaire who owns a network of um incredibly unethical uh animal treatment, yeah, so slaughterhouses basically. Yeah, and see what their conversation's like because we can find common ground because we're both looking at nuance. Whereas um I'd be inter you'd be interested to find out what that conversation will be like between people who one of one of which is making money and hang the consequences and sort of in and glorying, not glorying, but but um is pushing an industrialised process and somebody who's absolutely rejecting any of that process, and see what they talk about, because that'd be fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:58

Yeah, and and and and trust me, if if I get the opportunities, that's the route I will go because it is it's a very that you've you've hit the nail on the head. The the i i exactly that, and unfortunately, money makes the world go round in some cases, and they don't care because that's why they are where they are, and the ones that that shout loud because they they have their beliefs, unfortunately, will never change the sit the system because yeah, the system carries on, it's a big machine that just keeps on moving.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:29

Yeah, I'm more sympathetic to somebody who is pa somebody who is irritating but passionate about what they believe in than I am to somebody who uh who has making money as the most important thing thing in there in the process. Uh, but that that's my speed.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:44

No, absolutely. So I think I think I'm not gonna we're not we'll not carry on stirring the pot, but thank you ever so much for for giving me some time to have a chat about it. It's been hopefully a a bit of an eye-opener for anybody listening, and they might they might take something from this. And um, yeah, thanks for coming on. Thank you very much. And also, please come and see me on tour.

Tour Plug And Final Wrap

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

Oh, yeah, no worries, yeah. We we you can throw that in, tell them where you're on tour, and uh and and I'm sure people will come and have a watch.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:10

Uh so I'm I'm doing a show about Britpop, it's called the Britpop Hour. Uh well the Brit Pop show. The Britpop Hour is it was at the end of a fringe, and now it's a full 90-minute show. Uh, it's me talking about Britpop. I am not preaching about sustainable food at all at any point during the show. I'm mostly just doing jokes about Jarvis Cocker. Um fantastic. Uh and uh I mean start uh next show is in Milton Keynes on the 20th of March, and then I'm in Milton Keynes, Leicester, Bristol, Bath, Southampton, Andover, Guildford, Norwich, Tiverton, Birmingham, Shrewsbury, Southport, South Sheffield, Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle, Chanelswood, Hull, and Tunbridge Wells between now and the 14th of May.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

I am sure there are people listening that will come along and uh potentially you'll get some some people that want to have a chat and go. I listen to you on a podcast by some bloke called Gibbon. Well, if you I'd be happy to talk to them as uh as as as long as they've paid to get in. Superb. Well, thanks very much, Mark, and uh thanks for the time and hopefully uh yeah you have a good show and and you'll get a few more uh a few more people coming to uh to watch it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

Brilliant, I'd love that, but thank you very much. This has been really fun. Cheers.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:26

Well, thanks again for listening. I hope you enjoyed that. Um I did delay I didn't delay deliberately in getting this podcast out, but unfortunately, you will have missed his tour, which I believe ended in May. But hopefully some it's answered, it's opened some questions up and we can all have a discussion about it. I think when the word vegan comes up, people get quite defensive. Uh, they get defensive, we get defensive as hunters. But it's obviously one of those things that actually there are a lot of people out there that have different opinions, and it's worthwhile sitting down and having a chat with them. But we're gonna leave it there. We're gonna scoon. Come and see me if you're there, come and say hello, I'll be wandering about. Uh, let's see how we get on with this award and see whether the Outdoor Given podcast is selected. Let's uh uh hope it is. But I've got some stiff competition, as I said at the beginning, so uh we'll uh we'll let you know on the next one. Have a good one, catch you soon.