Go With Your Palate
Joe Wagner, 5th Generation Winemaker, presents the podcast "Go With Your Palate." A podcast about wine, entrepreneurship, and whatever the F else. So buckle up - this isn't your normal wine podcast.
Go With Your Palate
E101 Marshall Tilden III pt 2 | Joe Wagner
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What if knowing more about wine actually made you take it LESS seriously?
Marshall Tilden III—President of Wine Express and Wine Education at Wine Enthusiast—joins us to break down Old World vs. New World, how to taste and recognize the qualities of a good wine, and why making wine more approachable might be exactly what the industry needs.
Serious wine knowledge. Zero wine snobbery. 🍷
🎙️ Go With Your Palate: Marshall Tilden III | Serious Wine Knowledge Without the Serious Wine Attitude
This week, we’re joined by Marshall Tilden III, DWS, CSW—President of Wine Express and Wine Education at Wine Enthusiast, longtime wine educator, writer, and one of those rare people who can bring some seriously impressive wine credentials to the table without making you feel like you need a dictionary just to order a glass. With nearly two decades at Wine Enthusiast, a WSET Diploma, CSW certification, and a career dedicated to helping people better understand—and actually enjoy—wine, Marshall is exactly the kind of voice the industry needs right now.
We dive into Marshall’s journey from an upbringing that was a little English by name, Italian by experience, to discovering his passion for wine and eventually becoming an influential leader and educator in the industry. Along the way, we pull back the curtain on Wine Enthusiast, the work happening behind the scenes to educate and welcome the next generation of wine lovers, and Marshall’s own mission to help take some of the pretentiousness out of wine culture.
Then we get properly cork-dorky: Old World vs. New World, why Americans tend to talk about wine by grape while Europeans often talk about place, wine scores, regions, varietals, and what actually matters when choosing a bottle. Because with all the rules, ratings, terminology, and traditions surrounding wine, sometimes the most important question is still the simplest: Do you actually enjoy what's in your glass?
And because this is Go With Your Palate, education never means taking ourselves too seriously. Marshall brings the knowledge, Joe brings the winemaker perspective, Fat Mario brings... whatever Fat Mario brings—and somewhere along the way, a wine masterclass turns into exactly the kind of conversation we love having.
Whether you're a seasoned vino geek, an aspiring cork dork, or someone who still picks a bottle because the label looks cool, there’s a seat at the table for you.
Pour what you like, ask the questions, and leave the wine snobbery at the door. 🍷🤓
📍 Follow Marshall: @westchesterwine
This kind of like Italian upbringing. So you were introduced to wine at at a young age. Would you say that was kind of what the path was already led to you there? Like kind of for this period?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. It started definitely started that way. My dad was very into wine,
Marshall's early introduction into wine with surprising fam fav varietal...
SPEAKER_01and he, you know, would would talk about it. And I I I noticed early that I had a habit more than like, you know, my cousins were just like sneaking glasses under the table. And I was actually sitting talking to my my dad and my grandpa about it. And um he used to have this uh wine tasting group, um, and it was really Riesling focused, which was wow, super interesting back then. Yeah. And then they would have age Riesling from you know, from Alsace, from Germany, from and back then that was really it. There wasn't a lot of US, you know, Riesling was wasn't happening. Um and to be able to distinguish even back then from like super dry to spot laser to Auschlaser, you know, the super sweet, yeah, it was and the age to the not age. So I just, you know, kind of developed it. I didn't start in in wine, that wasn't my uh my path, but I was always like the wine guy, right? So I in college, you you know, you every drinking a box of Franzi. It was like, we can do better.
SPEAKER_05It kind of reminds me of you in college, dude. Hey, yeah.
SPEAKER_06I got a funny one for you when you got a whole bunch of guys doing, you know, century, one shot a minute for a hundred shots in a minute, right? Of beer, running out of beer, and they're like, oh man, we don't have any beer left. We gotta get some wine. They're like, I don't know, Joe's gone, but maybe what's it a special select?
SPEAKER_05Oh god, maybe yeah, let's just do it. It's in his room. We'll just replace it or whatever. Yeah, we'll finish off our century with that.
SPEAKER_02I was bringing wine coolers or making wine coolers around parties. Uh, there was a popular song by Tupac called Thug's Passion. Oh yeah. It was well, in his words, it was one part Alize, which is a flavored cognac, and one part Cristal, which was way out of my price range. So for me, it was one part Alize and one part Andre. Um Andre. But man, people like loved it. And uh it was I was like, all right, well, if it's getting people to drink some like form of wine, then then great. But that was uh that was hey, it was a hit.
SPEAKER_06That was wine education back then.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, because you start sweet, right? Like that sweetness is what gets people in. Listen, people when they're like, Oh, I drink white zen, I'm like, good, great. That is the best gateway wine, right? If that's what you're drinking to start off as your sweet entry into it, fantastic. Because at some point, sweet becomes too sweet. Yep. And then you're like, oh, maybe I need something a little bit drier, right? And so I, you know, I never I mean, I I can't say I enjoy it anymore, but I will never frown on someone who's in because I feel like that's how you get into this role, or maybe sangria, whatever, you know, whatever sweetness. Yeah, it's part of it's white.
SPEAKER_02Where's your starting point? Wherever it is, meet meet them there and and and then have them find their way through the journey and be there ready to educate. I think that's that's it.
SPEAKER_01Um so yeah, so then my dad
From leading academic education to wine education...
SPEAKER_01got me into it, and then in college, and then you know, he started working, and I was like the one guy, and then I um actually, because we talked about education, I uh went and got my master's in elementary ed, so I was gonna teach. Oh. Yeah. Um, I had a little stint in like some finance and then things like that, but I I got my that was my uh college was uh ed and psych minor, and I was gonna be a teacher, and then I I got into a school uh in the Bronx, and it was really, really brutal. And I'd worked with kids my whole life. My wife, my wife was a speech pathologist in really tough schools and uh in Queens and the city. And I went there and I was there for a few months, and I'm like, this is not my path. I I I I don't know if I can you know stick out with what's going on in you know this environment, these schools. It's a and my mom taught, and I was just around it. I was like, that's you know, that's that's gonna be it. And I um I had had experience in finance for a little bit before, so I was like, all right, maybe you know, I I jumped a little too quick. And so I got back into uh a couple of different finance things and real estate, and then I was at a um oh always always learning about wine, not a formal education, but it was always there in my background, you know what I mean, going to tastings, going to Zach's in um uh New York and going to those tastings because they would let you in for free and pour like the most crazy tastings on a Saturday, uh, and just talk to them, right? Like there's so many educational moments in those tastings. Um and I ended up uh yeah, ended up at like a job fair and and one enthusiast was there, and um that was in 2005, 2021 years ago.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, did did you have any of your certifications at that time, or was it just raw passion?
SPEAKER_01Just wow raw passion, raw passion. Raw passion and just and just knowledge from what I had gained in my own, you know, wanting to learn uh out there. So even even my non-formal education, I was still I was still pretty well versed by the time that I got here, you know.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_02All right, so 2005. So you're going on you're going on uh 20 years, oh 20, 21 years. 21 years. That's awesome. You know, while while we're while we're on this, so then then the next step, uh, you know, obviously love to hear kind of how you how you progressed in the industry, but I do want to take a moment for you to be able to explain to our audience the process of going through wine
First rule of wine education, pop bottles :) (WSET)
SPEAKER_02education. Um I mean, however far you want to go, you can go up to you know master psalm, but uh you know, just so people like what is step one, two, three, four, and time frame, maybe kind of something like that, you know, so people can get an understanding.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Do we want to open a uh oh yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let's do that.
SPEAKER_04I like that.
SPEAKER_05Hey, the first part of education, pop that bottle. Pop the bottle.
SPEAKER_01That's how the learning starts. And you want to talk about one of the myths that I love to break is screw cap. Stop dissing the screw cap. And Joe, I love that you use screw caps on these thread counts, man. Like, why not? Why are we using unnecessary materials when we're not aging these wines for decades? Right? Like, what are we doing?
SPEAKER_02I couldn't agree more. I could not agree more, man. Yeah, when we we took the we took we took the first risk of jumping into screw cap, and man, we got some shit for it. Uh but good for you. But now look at it, right?
SPEAKER_01Now, yeah, not only is it a better way to bottle and use a closure for young, fresh drinking wines, right? Is it for every wine? No, but for a vast majority, it is fine. Um, but it just for everyday people, like if you're having a glass, put the screw cap back on and put it in the fridge. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02Logic logic beat uh history in this one, I think. Of course.
SPEAKER_01So cheers. Cheers. Uh so so uh wine education. So I I was starting in 2005 and I said, All right, if I'm gonna, this is gonna be my path, let me let me get educated. And that was kind of always my thing. Same with you know, trying to be a teacher and decided not to, but um, let's see how educated I can get. So the first thing I did was uh went to the WSET. So there's WSET, which is the Wine Spirit Education Trust, and then there's a court of uh Master Sommelier, um, which is you know more involved in service, and with this, it was more of the business. So that's always what I find. If if if you're on the business end or the distributor end, WSET is probably the path. And if you're in service, you're working in hospitality, court of master sommelier is the is probably the path, right? Yeah. So um at the time there was a uh I can never think of the word. The word where if you the you take this test qualification uh test that if you pass it, you don't have to take level one. So I went right into level two. Oh, nice. Um yeah, and so I did it, which you can do now too. So you know, we have Wine Enthusiast Academy, which which I run, and uh we have level one and level two courses online. Level one is not required for level two, right? And it used to be that you had to take this test. Uh now you don't have to, you can just start in a level two. Uh and level two is a really good start for those who know a few things, right? You know how wine's made, um, you know that Cabernet Sauvignon's a grape, you know that Bordeaux is a wine region, right? Because that's level one is very, very basic for people who really don't know much. And it and it's a great start. It really is. Um, but level two, if you have just uh enough to be dangerous, right? Level two is probably a good start. All right. Right. Level three uh then gets it's a big jump jump from level two to level three. Level three gets into real specifics of regions, varietals, winemaking processes, aging. Um, it starts to get into a little bit of um you know uh rootstocks and and and uh pruning and different types of trellising. So it starts to get to a next level, and there's tasting involved in three as in part. So two, you learn how to taste, you learn how to go through the systematic approach of taste of tasting, which is my favorite part. I people walk away from a course when I teach and they're like, the information was good, your tastings were what made it
On wine nose training: apples, rubber hoses, and cats oh my...
SPEAKER_01fantastic, which to me is like the best compliment. Yeah, yeah, possible. Yeah, right. So to learn how to go through the process, to learn how to smell and look for the right things and not the right things, but to know to know the language to speak. In other words, the the way WSET to me explains this is so great, and why they have their allowed descriptors and and not allowed descriptors, right? So if you're looking for, so for example, on the Sauvignon Blanc, their fruit cluster of citrus fruit is lemon and lime, and maybe a little bit of grapefruit, right? And the green cluster, there's maybe some green apple and and pear that's going on here too, right? Really smells good, by the way, Joe.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, thank you. It's it's better, it's it's better than grapes and hand sanitizer, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01For sure. But but they but they don't use the ones like the you know, when it says like cat pee and um rubber hose and um and other things like that. And you know, it it makes sense because they're very not only esoteric, but subjective, right? Your rubber hose might smell different than my rubber hose in my backyard because mine's got a ton of dirt on it, right? Um like like like the the what the one that uh always gets me when people say it smells like um you know an old uh an old hockey bag or an old catcher's mitt I'm like listen. I played hockey, I got an old hockey bag, I know what mine smells like. I don't know what yours smells like.
SPEAKER_06And I feel like if you're smelling your own bag, it's probably something that you may like, but then if you're smelling someone else's bag, it's something that you really don't like.
SPEAKER_02Everybody likes their own brand, don't they?
SPEAKER_05Exactly, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like you like your own cat's pee. I don't know. It's my cat. It smells like Rambo.
unknownAnyways.
SPEAKER_01So uh, but that's the part of the WSET, you know, going through the aroma, going through the color, going through the palette, and then going through the texture, the blick, do you like it? The assessment of it first, right? Is it quality? Is it good? Very good, you know, the whole process. And, you know, I can I can sit there and and do that for hours. I don't want to bore everyone with it. But if you ever wanted to come to, you know, one of the the classes on Wine Enthusiast Academy, level one, I go through the same assessment. Um, and we use the level two descriptors because um level one is it is basic, and I feel like it's hard to not be able to grab certain things and certain descriptors and aromas and flavors without getting up to that level two aroma, uh level two class.
SPEAKER_02So now are are you doing uh are you doing online as well, or is this all in person?
SPEAKER_01So, right yeah, so right now it's fall online. We're working on getting level uh one and two here in our headquarters in Westchester in Valhalla, and then also uh working on getting it in our store, our first real official flagship store down in Soho in New York City.
SPEAKER_02All right. Uh awesome. When when does that open? We opened in November. Okay. And uh what's the name of it? Wine Express? It's it's wine. No, it's wine enthusiasts.
SPEAKER_01Wine enthusiasts again. Cool. So in yeah, in New York, you can only have one. Yeah, one license. Yeah, yeah. So it's wine enthusiasts, yeah. New York, man. Uh uh. Yeah, so it's a store for like our product and our events. We have a lot of events down there. We're doing a lot of you know, fun tastings and so those wine express tastings. I'm bringing the wine express down there, and then we have um, you know, if you want it, like if you wanted to come down and and sponsor a week and pour all your, you know, cup the all the wines for a week. Like it's so fun. We have some great wines, we have some incredible events that are going on there, and um, it's just a new, it's a it's a new venture for us, which is really cool.
SPEAKER_02I love that. I love that. That's awesome. That'll be that'll be a blast. I'm definitely gonna have to get down there. So uh very good.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, so level three um is essay, short answer questions, and it is tasting of two wines. And I think the test is a couple of hours, and I think level three took about a year, right? So it was about a year for level three, and at the same time, I did the um certified specialist of wine
Back to leveling up that WSET training (breaking it down)
SPEAKER_01through the Society of Wine Educators. So, Society of Wine Educators is really just if you're gonna teach, right? If you're gonna be an educator. Um, but the CSW is kind of on par with the level three. There was a lot of crossover, so I said I'll do them at the same time and whatever, just see what happens, right? And so I I asked both, which was great.
SPEAKER_02Then you get when you see a year, how much time was uh on a weekly basis were you spending?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh so I would say for level three, I was probably spending about five to ten hours a week. Okay. So I was probably getting up about, you know, getting up at 4 30 or 5 and studying for like an hour. Um, and then you know, closing out the night with the book too for about an hour. So five to ten hours based on okay. You know, based on the week. Yeah, it was um yeah, it was it was hard. Level three was no joke. Yeah, yeah. Level three was tough. Uh and so level three of WSET, I believe crosses over to like advanced somoyac. Okay. Right. Level two like certified, level three like advanced. Uh and I can't speak as well to to sommelier because I didn't do it, but that's what I hear. That's what uh you know. Exactly. So then level four is cut into six parts. It's regular, they call it uh still wine, uh or light wine, but it's like you know, just wine, fortified wine, uh sparkling wine. Back when I did it was spirits, uh, because mine's a diploma of wine and spirits. Now spirits is its own thing. Uh then there was wine production, and there was um wine theory. So there was a you know, a 15-page paper, there was an in-class essay, uh, there was the winemaking exam itself. That one, all in each section was like six months. The whole thing took almost three years to do level to do level four. Wow, level four, three years, just level four, just for level four. Yeah. So I was I was all from I think I started, and it I didn't do one right after the other. I took a little break, but I think from level two to level four, it took me like six years, and and I and I did and I passed all my exams to be honest. First try, you passed all of them. I did. Wow, I did.
SPEAKER_02That's a yeah, you don't hear that very often.
SPEAKER_01No, and I was thrilled to be honest. And I was shocked because you like, especially for uh level four, there's six sections, right? So you can fail one section and take that section over again. You don't have to redo the whole uh the whole level four, right? Um, but I did the hardest one last, the still wine. Um, yeah, and I passed the theory, and so the level the that part of still wine is theory and tasting. So you have uh God, I think it was a hundred multiple choice, and like out of seven essay questions you had to answer, five. And then there's a 12 wine blind tasting that's broken into four different or three different groups. One was the same varietal, one was the same region, one you had to guess the vintages, and the other was just three random wines.
SPEAKER_02I like that. That's uh I've actually not heard that about level four. I and uh I I like that format better than I think what I've heard from the court of Master Somaliers.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, and there's there's at least some structure behind it. Yeah, yeah. And again, I don't know that you know the court of master of sommelier's, but at least you knew what you were going into, right? Like, all right, this one, they're all the same grape, right? This one, you know, all the same region. The other one, right? The other one was all the same grape, but you had, and it's never guessing because you're getting points for describing the wines, right? So you get a point for uh intensity of color, a point for color. You get a point for intensity of aromas, and like five check marks or points for each correct descriptor that you have based on what the uh exam instructor puts on their exam. Okay. So it back then it was like 27 points, and you had to get uh gosh, I should know this, but I haven't done level four in so long. 22 of 27 points to to get it right. So you didn't have to get the exact wine and vintage and and region. You had to be able to explain it well enough to the point where, okay, it's gonna be, it's gotta be this, this, or this, right? Like when you're blinding, it's always what isn't it before you get what is it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So uh so yeah, so that was uh 2017, and I started it in like 20 yeah, 12 or 13. So it was uh it's it's a path, you know, it's a long path. And then I had to and still somewhat toy around with master of wine as the next one, which uh you know, to be honest, uh working a full-time job with kids. I just I don't see I I've seen people do it, and I I don't see how that that that in itself is a full-time job to be able to do it.
SPEAKER_06This is uh after level four, what'd you what's it called? I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01Master of wine. Oh, the master of wine. Okay, okay, master of wine. That's one that was like so the master of wine and wine.
SPEAKER_06I was like, wait, what?
SPEAKER_05They're going into space. We got the space force getting into wine next level, yeah. Above it. That's above master. That's a master.
SPEAKER_06Okay, so mass master of wine. Um, have you even heard like with the commitment on that? You're already finishing. Geez, uh a level four or three years.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's another, it's another three to four years, it's a lot of travel, and it's a four-day exam. Oh wow. For masters, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So if if a a layman like me walked into wanting to get some certifications, I could only I I have to start at level two. So I I would I go to level three and test my luck. Yeah, I have to double check.
SPEAKER_01I see I but I believe it if you there's a that's what I'm saying. I can't think of the name of the exam. There's an exam that if you take and you pass that you are of knowledge of level two already, that yeah, you can jump into the three.
SPEAKER_02Okay, okay. Yeah. So if it's like a prerequisite exam or something, prerequisite, thank you. That's the word.
SPEAKER_05We got it, we did get it, we got it in time.
SPEAKER_02That's only because I got kids in college.
SPEAKER_05Ding, ding, ding.
SPEAKER_02Well, that that's a but yeah, that's awesome. And and so obviously you were still at Wine Enthusiast um and uh and and and wine express uh at that point, and just utilizing this knowledge, expanding your ability to bring great wines to a bunch of people. Um and so I mean, did you were you working up the ranks there or had you already kind of landed where you wanted to be?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think I was when did the strums take you seriously? Yeah, I you know, of course they did, of course. Um I was um, you know, moving up to having a little bit more uh management, and it really was more at that time on the storage side. I was more consulting on the Wine Express and just helping um Josh, you know, bring things in and taste and bounce uh you know things off. And um we're fortunate that most of the wines get tasted here, right? We review 20, whatever, thousand wines a year, yeah. And so I could sit in the tasting room uh, you know, with the reviewers and just gain so much experience and knowledge. And you'll have a day
After wine school - taste, taste, taste...
SPEAKER_01where they'll go through, you know, six or seven flights. Six and uh you'll have I got that. Yeah, not on purpose, not on purpose. I can't help it anymore with the kids.
SPEAKER_05Six or seven. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01We're talking flights.
SPEAKER_05We're talking flights. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I get yelled at it now for my kid. They're like, stop it. Yep. So uh, but they'll be, you know, it's one of just wines that have a little bit, you know, uh a Sample poured out, and this is what's left. So we take a ton of wine home and just taste and taste and taste, right? So that for level four, that commitment was at least 20 hours a week. And because it would be studying in the morning for at least an hour, hour and a half, and then when the kids went to bed, I would have my wife um blind me on you know at least five to ten wines every night, and it would be just totally random. So it was just a lot of blind tasting work. And that's to me, the only way to really learn is just you you just have to keep tasting different wines from different regions from different vinages.
SPEAKER_02And well, that's and that's super that's super cool that you had that opportunity to be able to uh bring some of those samples home and really expand your knowledge. And I I do think that that in the service industry, maybe not to the magnitude you you had availability, but that's one way that people are able to expand their palate. Um otherwise it's extremely costly. Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And and you know, we we talk about it here. Uh, you know, it's a very fortunate scenario. And if you're gonna get your diploma, you should probably find a job somewhere where wine is somewhat accessible because it is costly. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_06I was just gonna ask if you have any uh tasting tips, actually, if someone's
Wine tasting tips (ex: great wine acid detection hack)
SPEAKER_06gonna kind of prep for something like a blind tasting or anything, like the kind of things that you live by.
SPEAKER_01No, I so the first is uh to make sure you're in a aroma-free room, right? No perfumes, no colognes. Avoid anything that's gonna even washing your hands, right? Sometimes you get like that really uh strong scented soap, and then all of a sudden you're tasting and your hands are pretty close to your nose, right? And all of a sudden you get these these off aromas from it. Um another thing when you're tasting, if you can line it up, you always want to go lightest to most full body, right? Whites to reds, because those big tanic or even somewhat sweet residual sugar reds will crush the white wines. So it's really going about orders. And then what we get into with WSET is how to gauge certain things. So I like there's a couple of my favorites if you're interested. How to gauge acid the first time blows people away because it happens on everything. So if you didn't have your wine, you guys both have a glass.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know this one? Oh no, I don't know this. No. All right, cool. So so you're gonna take a sip, switch it around, do your thing, wait eight to ten seconds, and then tilt your head down and try and feel like the saliva and your mouth watering feel, right?
SPEAKER_00And then tilt down. See how much of that saliva tones between your gum and your front lip.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right? So you find a reference point and then you go up and down from there.
SPEAKER_01Right. So you find like a super, a super high acid Marlboro Sauvignon Blanc in a crazy cool climate, right? Yeah. Where you you sip it and you can't even talk because the spit's just coming all over the place. That's your high that's your high acid. And then you find your gauges in between there, and then you take uh, you know, a really like warm climate, cab or whatever, something like that. Mo most wines have to have some form of acid. I mean, you don't tell you right. That's what hope. I've never made a wine without acid.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, it's a it's natural, it's got they all got acid.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, you would hope, but you'd be surprised. There's some wine out there that doesn't, and so when you feel like all tanning drying and no acid that comes down, that's when you have those wines that are out of balance.
SPEAKER_02Ah, okay. Yeah, right. Like some of the overripe zins, that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Yep. A lot of Syrahs, not a lot of Syrah, but I find them more in Syrah uh than Zen, but some of those really hot climate Syrahs that get made at like high alk and you know, just crazy concentration and extraction don't have the acid behind it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's interesting. I don't I've never heard that trick, never seen that one either. So yeah. Nice to learn something new every day. Yeah, you can't. Yeah. What how I like to I definitely agree with his point of of anything that is scented. Um, that's even like hair products and all that stuff. Yeah. Uh so if it's a tasting, if it's a tasting day for me, I'm I'm cautious of that. Even like what I ate the night before, like no asparagus. Um and so so that those are all important things. You don't have to be like too tight on it, but like just know what affects you. Um and then uh and then it's funny for for me for my see now. I feel like an idiot. No, I'm like, you're telling me, I'm telling an actual I'm telling an actual professional.
SPEAKER_05Marshall, I threw up the alley oop. I'm just gonna let him explain it now. He doesn't want to do it.
SPEAKER_02For my final tasting, the the the like the major test is that I want to be slightly hungry and I want a slightly cold wind at my back.
SPEAKER_05So I don't take off the shirt. Does everyone there have to see? So you're like, okay, watch out the bears coming off.
SPEAKER_02I don't know what it I don't know what it is, but I take I gotta go outside and and that's you know, like so you're you're in a laboratory type setting, right? Everything's very clean and and and whatnot. And uh, and then it's like, okay, holy shit, I think we got this. Like, I think we're there. And you might bring two or three samples out uh of your top three, you know, final blends. And uh, but I whatever it was, I'm just like, yeah, the wind, how it kind of funnels around. If I'm tasting with the wind at my face, that's also part of it. Like, I don't like that because then I'm I'm getting some infiltration of that air. And and so I want the wind at my back and it kind of wraps around and and rolls in rather than kind of funnels in and through the glass.
SPEAKER_01Anyways, I feel no no no, I feel that. No, no, no. Listen, at first when he said it, I was like, that's crazy. You you just brought up a fantastic point about air and it coming at you in the glass because not only is it gonna uh add more oxygen quicker, but it's probably gonna increase the intensity of some of those volatils that are coming out because it's it's hitting it that way instead of from the back. I I feel that, John.
SPEAKER_02Hey, he's with you. All I'm saying is that it was just by trial and error and realizing like where I felt like I was tasting the best. Yeah, and then and then I was like, and and those are like two things that stuck out to me.
SPEAKER_01Uh I have a I have a question for you if you don't mind, because I I see I find what what what you do and and just it fascinating because the intricacies that go into from you know barrel, I mean from you know, grape to bottle, but the the process from barrel to bottle and where you have to choose to you know get into that step and and the tasting process. So when you're tasting to that point, are you just tasting one wine a day? Like, are you only going through your barrels of say Belgoss, uh one of the vineyards that day, or are you doing everything and cleansing between? Like, what's
The winemaking process of barrel to bottle (bts wine blending)...
SPEAKER_01that process?
SPEAKER_02Nope, it is it is it is one a day. If we if we're gonna taste something else, it it's not an in-depth tasting. Like if it's a blending day or a barrel day that we're tasting barrels, which barrels, you know, we can reach up to like on Pinot Noir, 300 barrels in a day uh to taste through Cabernet, you kind of cap out sometimes at like less than 100. Uh your palate just gets fatigued, you feel it, and you're like, all right, I'm I'm burnt. Um, but then when it comes to blending, I just do kind of successive blending. Uh so I'll start with I mean, I could run you through the process real quick. So during our barrel barrel tasting, our final barrel tasting, it'll be a grading system. So it's chalk on the barrels, just A, B, C, D, F, and then some intricacies to it. Like it could be an A lot, but overly tannic. Maybe it was new oak that had a little more tannin contribution. But that AT will be blended with all the other ATs, and then A's blended with A's, B's with the B's, so on and so forth. And then you start doing your base blends, and you say, okay, A's, B's, do they all work together? Great. Those all those all can go together. So you blend those two tanks. And then does C's, do they bring any benefit? Are there a little like is there some VA maybe or ethyl acetate that flawed these wines? But it could be a contributing positive factor to the overall blend and at what level? And so you kind of start tweaking and dialing in. Um, and successive blending is um I'll start off with like up to 10 wines that are that are all you know just bench blends, and then I'll generally funnel it down to three to five, and I'll kind of do more rapid tasting, keep the notes, and say, all right, like of these three, I like this one. Now I'm gonna do some variations of those or of this one. Of those three, I like this one, and continue to funnel down until you're down to that that final point. Um, and and during those days, yeah, it's I mean, you really, if you're doing Pinot, you're doing Pinot or like one bottling, potential bottling of Pinot. Sometimes it comes together in a matter of a day or two. Sometimes it takes like two months. Uh it's just you know you never know what you're gonna get.
SPEAKER_01And the cab's got to take longer, right?
SPEAKER_02From what you're saying about the amount of barrels of Yeah, just for the barreling part of it, it takes longer. Uh, but but even for just the uh the blending part. I mean, one of the hardest blends I've I've had to deal with actually was one of the one of the vintages of our Oregon Pinot Noir when we were doing that. Oh wow. And it took months, and it was it was just like, I mean, you get to a point after a couple weeks, you might just go straight back to the drawing board and be like, like all of it, like we've racked it back down into barrels. It's it's sitting there, it's aging longer. We're seeing what we could do. Are we flashing some of it in new oak for a period of time? And just, you know, you when you have hard ones like that, it it it's uh it can be painful, but then you get the ones that just fall into your lap, and you're like, you know, something was looking down on me today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and and not to get too because I could sit here and talk for hours about the the whole year process, but how much barrel variation do you have on a bottling, right? So you sit like how many, but let's say you're going through 300 barrels of dairy man or something like that. How much uh barrel variation do you have from producer from toast, from nude?
Wine barrel variations (size, toast, wood, etc)
SPEAKER_01You know?
SPEAKER_02Oh man, we are we are so different than most other producers. We uh we are very eccentric with our barrels. Um, it's generally speaking, uh like tight grain. We do a little bit of loose grain, but uh it's generally like tight to medium tight. Uh we'll do water bent, steam bent, fire bent. We'll do, we'll actually use different woods to toast some of the barrels rather than just using oak. Uh so like as an example, maybe mesquite, uh if we wanted something a little more powerful and smoky. Um and then uh as far as toast levels, medium, medium plus, heavy, char, you know, char four, char, like we've gone up to those variations in barrel sizes, uh stave thickness. Uh there is there are variations. I mean, there there's probably if you go through the barrel room right now, there's there's I I bet you there's uh no more than five percent that are consistent.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_02Uh but that's part of the beauty of it. If it's working, you keep on working with it. Being that we're tasting every barrel multiple times, you're able to say these are no longer working, or maybe that cooperage fell off. Maybe their sourcing changed. Um but we have these others that are really we can these are backups. So let's augment what we're doing with this cooperage or with this forest from from the center of France or wherever, um, and and continue to evolve. So it's a constant evolution, uh, I guess to simplify it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's amazing. And and listen, I I well just uh I don't know what the right word is, but hype up how challenging that process I've seen it and and to see that in person and to watch you got you and and winemakers go through each barrel and like know each barrel individually, like, oh yeah, well that barrel is this and it's this toast, and from here they're all like your babies, you know. I mean, the the the just innate knowledge that you guys have is it blows my mind when you do it.
SPEAKER_02I mean, it and like and like your own, you know, children, they cost a shit ton of money. So you gotta get to know them all pretty goddamn well. That's one thing I gotta say is yeah, we're seeing like people run deals everywhere, you know. They're like people are people are struggling in the industry right now. So you got glass suppliers looking for more business, you got people throwing opportunities and contracts, you know, trying to trying to get more business for their business. And I totally get it, right? If it's slow and you got infrastructure and you want to utilize that, I you know, you're you're gonna you're gonna sharpen the pencil. I haven't really seen that on barrels. Um, yeah, and yeah, you know, but but man, I have heard I have heard some very dismal orders uh for for this year. Uh so so we'll see. And that does affect wine.
External factors of the finished wine product to consider...
SPEAKER_02That's kind of one of the you know, you had you had COVID affecting things in different ways. Uh, you had the fires affecting things in different ways. Now we're seeing this kind of pullback from the industry, and and a so that equates to a lower investment in your product uh in many cases, if you just don't have the means to do it or you you're downsizing or whatever. What does that look like for those wines in two years, three years when they're on the market? Um, so I'm I'm very curious to see. And and and through that though, comes innovation. Uh so what innovation will come out that are going to be making many of the other wines even better? I I so these times of change are times of of uh of opportunity and also I think times of uh of you know potential uh glimpses into the future of wine.
SPEAKER_01So do you get into when you're talking about opportunity, meaning you know, potentially alternative aging vessel? Do you get into the concrete at all?
SPEAKER_02Or no, we're we don't we've we've done concrete. I'm not a big fan of it, uh partly from a cleanliness perspective. I just don't I don't believe in it so much. We still use all all barrel. Um and uh but yeah, it's as far as like the the evolution goes, I mean, yeah, it's not like you know, I'm not saying adjunct. I think there's if you want all that stuff, that all that stuff is out there, right? There's maybe there's gonna be continued evolution with that, um, but you're gonna see, I think, people adopting like screw cap, right? Are are we gonna see are we gonna see bag and box wine become like in the luxury segment? I you know, is Napa Cabernet from a famous vineyard or even just a region like Stag's Leap, is that gonna hit the shelf in a three-liter?
SPEAKER_01Right? Yeah, I don't know. I wouldn't I wouldn't be shocked at this point, you know, like no, yeah. You gotta you gotta figure out how to like some of before with with wine retail, you gotta figure out how to keep the costs. We're a point where you know you're making money because if not, then it it just becomes you're you're we're feeding into things that are are not working, and um, the more that happens, and it's sad. I mean, you see wineries closing down, you see just the excess of juice that's out there, and so you got to be, like you said, innovative in ways to redefine your business and how to make it profitable while keeping the quality of the product where where you want it, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I I also think that there's going to be a little more consolidation, but there's going to be an elimination of a lot of larger brands that just don't have value out there, which I don't think is a bad thing, right? They ran those in publicly traded companies to you know squeeze every bit of copper out of that they of out of it that they could. Um but I also see that there may be a fragmentation down on the lower production levels, um, and a lot of negotiant, which there's so much wine out there that's available. And if somebody's getting crafty and they've got the opportunity to bottle it, go out and you know, you buy 500 gallons of this, 200 of that, etc. etc., and you blend something that's absolutely like gangbusters on the palate, and you can sell it for 20 bucks a bottle, that's good for the industry.
SPEAKER_01Great for the industry, and that is exactly you know what I'm just hearing and seeing of just like that, just these shiners or these bottles of that you've you've you've never seen before, you've never seen a label, and you taste and you're like, damn. Yeah, that's that's some serious juice right there, right?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I think that's where where wine express, like you guys have a huge opportunity to be able to, you know, jump on, jump in with that and excite the hell out of your customers.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's that's exactly and honestly, that's really what we're trying to do. Like, um love carrying brands that people love because that's it makes everyone feel nice, cozy, comfy, tucked in, and they know where they're getting in a bottle, right? I do too, but yeah, but but at the same time, it's like you try something new, and and I so I have a game that I'll I'll play. I maybe I'll send you a bottle. We could do this for another one. Is that uh I'll go around the office and I'll take a bottle and I'll blind everybody and um I'll just they'll you know go through it. Do you like it? What do you think? I say, what would you pay? What would you pay, right? This bottle, you don't know what it is, you don't know the brand. It could be well known, it could be not. I'll tell them what the region and the grape is, right? And I'll say, All right, so what would you pay? And more often than not, they're way overshooting what we're selling it for at Wine Express, which when that happens, I know I'm doing my job.
SPEAKER_04And I was just thinking, I love I love that.
SPEAKER_02I've started doing that just with the marketing department.
SPEAKER_06Thank you, thank you, Marshall. I'll probably be in that meeting. I'll be like $9.99. Um I was also thinking, too, again, going back to the younger generation, the young drinkers coming in, and we're talking about even Instagram, having the hook, right? Grabbing someone's attention first. So I feel like this is an opportunity too. If you're making some good quality juice, we just had um someone of the Gen Z on like the podcast trying to get kind of get her idea, you know, Taylor. Yeah, and she was kind of and she was just like, Oh, I really like this wine. The bottle is shaped like a cat. Yeah. And I collect the bottles and they're all different colors, and I have them up on my thing. And so then you're just like start to kind of like it, just kind of goes in your head, like it got her attention, and then you obviously drink that and you kind of
Power of branding (searching for the next hook for the new wine generation)
SPEAKER_06start to choose. Because I am kind of going back to your thought. That's kind of like when you said, What's the future hold? Are people gonna be smacking the bags of premium, you know, Pinot Noir? Is that is that what we're is that we're is that because it caught their attention first?
SPEAKER_02I mean, maybe maybe the branding is the the white Zinfandel of this younger generation, where they're buying based on an emotional feeling that they see versus something that they've tasted that they enjoy that's sweet, and and then that'll maybe be what brings them into the next level.
SPEAKER_01And you said it earlier, Joe, what you used to bring um to college parties. I mean, uh Bartles and James wine coolers were the first the first go-to, right? Was that that sweet wine cooler? And um, I don't know. I I was like, these are pretty good.
SPEAKER_02And they were, they were like they were just they were quaffable, enjoyable, like nope, you know, you you drank them.
SPEAKER_01And that might have been my first entry, actually. Now that I think about it, that I'm really going back that far before the before the Chianti on the Italian uh dinner table. Could have been a boy, it could have been a wine color.
SPEAKER_02You know, I I mean one thing as we're talking about the next uh the the younger generation, and I kind of see it with my kids and their friends, and I've talked about this with a few people, but it does seem like they are discovering wine, they are wanting to learn about it, but there was a delay with like the the the people that are now 25 to 30, they seem like they kind of are are catching up to the people that are in their earlier, like 21 to 23, and and they're all starting to journey this path of of wine together. Um, so that delay, that that lapse in a generation evolving, I think partly because of COVID. Um you know, I think I think that I think that there's a future still.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, everything that's delayed. You know, listen to me, I to me, I it's hard to imagine I've been in this industry for this long now. But having been in it, we saw COVID, you see the dips, you see the valleys, this one feels extended. It does. And I think you just hit a really good point, Joe, of why, because this current group. Um but they are what's interesting, because we've we we've been out there in the in the articles and the research that people they are drinking, they're you know, they're looking for storytelling, they want to hear about that, you know, beautiful uh winery, uh new winery that just opened up, and it was a couple that moved from where you know the the cool story behind the wine. The thing is, those cool stories are usually wines that are gonna cost a couple of bucks, yeah. Right? Stories are expensive because that is somebody that went out their own and they did find an old winery and they reopened it up and they had the replant grapes and they got new machines, you know what I mean? So these aren't wines that you're gonna get for 10, 12 bucks off the shelf, they're gonna cost 20, 25 bucks. And are people spending that on you know, new wines if they're just getting in there? I think there lies some of the
Marshall's first Napa Valley wine experience...
SPEAKER_01The issue of not that people aren't drinking, but they're very selective about what they want to drink in the wine world right now and aren't as adventurous as maybe younger generations were.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a good point.
SPEAKER_01Very good point. But I do agree with you, Joe. I I I think it's a dip, it's a valley. I think it's you know, people staying authentic, people staying genuine, staying true to what they're doing, staying true to their passion, which is always the bit to me. Wine we always say around here, nobody needs a wine cellar, nobody needs a a a wine room, no these are luxury hobby. Yeah, right? Um, but people do it because of their passion for wine, because of their the pleasure that it brings when they open a wine. And the other part is, and I think where COVID might have uh also delayed it, is because of those wine experiences. So, like for me, you know, my first wine experience was with my wife. We went to California, and I I don't know if I've uh had this story out there, but I um we were going to Sonoma, we were going to Sonoma Valley, and we're uh driving down the road, and I had all these appointments set up and we drive to past St. Francis. I'm like, oh my god, St. Francis, I forgot to set up St. Francis appointment. I'm like, can we go in? Can we go in? She's like, Yeah, we got time. So this was about 2006. So we were not married yet. Um, and I just started a wine enthusiast. And so we go in and she looks at me and she's like, Um, can you not do the whole work thing? You're like talking about work all the time, and like, can we just go in, like taste some wine and enjoy ourselves? And I'm like, I got and I'm like, I kind of know what I'm doing. So so so we go in and uh they're like, Oh, you know, uh, would you like one of our tastings? We have a $10 uh starter, we have a $20 reserve. And I had one of my, you know, a sales card at that point. I was just in sales, and I said, Well, you know, I work at Wine Enthusiast, and I don't know if you guys do trade discounts or anything. She looks at us, she goes, forget about what I just said. Um, we're gonna set you up out in our private tasting. There's a food and wine pairing, it's coming up in about 10 minutes. Uh, in the meantime, take this uh reserve pagani uh zin, and um, there's a member, there's a member uh reserve seating outside on the veranda, and just go out there and we'll we'll get you when it's ready. I said, I said, all right, so this is how it's gonna be great. So so we go outside and she like leans into me and whispers into my ear. She's like, Do you have enough of those cards for this whole trip?
SPEAKER_02Oh man, that's it. Yeah, Marshall's out in wine country, big dick in it.
SPEAKER_01Without even knowing it was a thing, right? I was just like looking for a five-hour trade discount. And so, but for that reason, for that reason, St. Francis will always have a very special place, right? Uh, and those wines will always have a special place because it'll always remind me of of that moment, especially for me, you know, uh she's not here anymore. But um, yeah, so it it it brings back a really special moment. So that's one thing that I don't know if this younger generation has had the opportunity to do yet is to get those experiences to bring it back to the wines that will you know elicit those memories again. That's a good point.
SPEAKER_02All right. Well, we're we're we're working on it. I think there's a lot of change going on in wine country too, and people are trying to figure out how to how to bring that experience that that will be an emotional reaction that'll carry forward forever. And I I I mean, I've got nothing but hope, and I I I'm sure you guys see it too. And and I think we're absolutely we're in a we're in a a pretty good place. I think that a little flushing out's not a bad thing. A little little cleanup, get the cleanup on all five.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02As you said before, shots fired.
SPEAKER_05Hey, that's what we do here.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, Marshall, it it was a true pleasure uh to to have you on, and uh great to see you. And and man, I mean, what you're doing online, absolutely love it, and uh, and and proud to be, you know, a counterpart in a way to it and trying to expose people to new wines. So thanks for being out there. Thanks for bringing great wines to
Check out Marshall Tilden III!
SPEAKER_02people, and thanks for bringing education out to the masses. Uh, and again, thanks for being on.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, thank you, Marshall. And you can just give us really quick, just uh where people can find your content.
SPEAKER_01And and I feel the same way. Thank you guys, and Joe. I I you know I I tag you and put you out there all the time because A, love your wines, but B, love your content. And uh I'm you know proud to be counterpart on your end of things too. So feeling totally mutual. Um, so wine enthusiast, obviously, everyone knows where that is. Winexpress.com is where you can find our wines like the thread count. We carry both the white and the cap. Um and see, I'll give you a little plug there too. Thank you. I love it. I like it. Uh, and then for my personal um Westchester wine is uh at Westchester Wine. So you can find on Instagram, TikTok. Um, and yeah, I'm I'm like you guys said, I'm really just trying to find some some great wine, some great value, have some fun. You probably see my parents, you might see my dog, you may see my kids. They they've done Gatorade tastings out there.
SPEAKER_06So um Yeah,
Closing with a little harmonica bro down...
SPEAKER_06and also like we're I see I've seen you perform too. I I just saw you with a guitar and a harmonica. Yeah, so I mean, any anything I thought that was awesome, by the way. He he actually is the harmonica.
unknownOh, do you?
SPEAKER_01I do. I so wait, I just got hooked on harmonica. So sorry to sound quick at the ending, but but um so I've gotten into the whole country thing, the Zach Bryan, Tyler Childers. I'm gonna see him in a couple weeks, and I saw the Bruce movie. Have you seen the Bruce movie? I have not. Oh my god. So the Bruce movie is all about the making of Nebraska, and I'm not a huge Bruce guy, but I can always appreciate Bruce. The song Nebraska and um Atlantic City and the whole harmonica thing, and then I'm like, wow, that's really cool. So I just taught myself how to play harmonica with a lot of songs, and I'm obsessed. And my kids are ready to kill me.
SPEAKER_02It's like, but isn't it the greatest intro instrument you can travel anywhere? Yeah, now I I got some of my kids onto it now. Yeah, I love it.
SPEAKER_01But I think I just thought I usually play it like early in the morning when I wake up and they're like, Dad, we're trying to sleep. Come on, dude.
SPEAKER_02You watch, they're gonna they're gonna pick it up one day and be like, shit, I can I can just keep this in my pocket. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06I just got him like this uh present because I I he I found out he's on harmonica's birthday or something. And so I was like, I gotta get like some historical one. So it was like I think it's called Honor or Honor. Honor. Honor, yeah. Oh, thanks. Okay, thanks. Yeah. And so, anyways, but I found out the one thing I did some research, and I found out to make sure it was the older one, like pre-World War II, like it had to have this uh star on it. It's actually some said it was a Jewish star, but it was actually just uh six-point star rec recognizing his kids because he had yeah, five sons. But anyways, they had to change it post, you know, or during World War II for obvious reasons because it was it was kind of dangerous for them to have it, so they removed it. But I knew it would be sentimental to if I got him one that had the star. But anyways, it was very cool. Yeah, so I got it, but it was like, you know, it's an antique, it's old, like I had to kind of like get it. You know, there's like other it's changed some hands and stuff. And I remember when I gave it to him, it's like in this old, like crumpled box, you know, like just colors like I mean I gave it a little sniff.
SPEAKER_05It kind of smelled like, you know, like cigarettes and I'm not gonna say shame, but like maybe hard times, you know, just working through it.
SPEAKER_06But the first thing he does, like that's how I know he really loves it, is it gets it? He's like, oh man, it's like really old. So just grabs it right in his mouth. Just start, I was like, I didn't alcohol, I didn't, well, I didn't clean it anyways. Dude, it's got the wooden it's got wooden reeds.
SPEAKER_05You can't. Dude, I love the alcohol on it. Dude, yeah, you're the real one, dude.
SPEAKER_01I liked it though. I made a lot. Didn't have uh any notes of uh cat bee on there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, hey, I'll bring a harmonica out to New York and I'm gonna I want to meet up with you at the uh new wine enthusiast store. Um so uh I'm looking forward to that. And uh yeah, let's let's we'll put on a little live performance or something, embarrass ourselves a bit.
SPEAKER_01That's a great show. You're on. I'm gonna set that up, Jake.
SPEAKER_06And we'll definitely have you back on sometime, Marshall, because it's been a great time. I feel like we could talk for hours. So thanks again. Yeah, we really appreciate you and everything you're doing.
SPEAKER_01Appreciate you. Hey, thank you. Cheers. Cheers, guys. Thank you.