Trauma Informed Practice with Lisa Cherry

In this episode I talk to Lisa Cherry, an author, researcher, trainer and consultant about trauma informed practice and so much more. 

We discuss:

• Trauma informed practice as a framework
• Challenges for new social workers 
• Burnout and overwhelm for new social workers
• Organisational culture and environment
• Language and Assessment 

To connect with Lisa and find out more about her work:

https://www.lisacherry.co.uk/ 

https://www.lisacherry.co.uk/the-podcast/

https://www.ticservicesltd.com/ 

https://www.routledge.com/Conversations-that-Make-a-Difference-for-Children-and-Young-People-Relationship-Focused/Cherry/p/book/9780367644017 

https://www.routledge.com/The-Brightness-of-Stars-Stories-from-Care-Experienced-Adults-to-Inspire/Cherry/p/book/9781032191584

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Transcript

Hi, and welcome to social work sorted to the podcast. I'm Vicki from social work. So take training and consultancy. Through this podcast, my blog and social media, I support new social workers from the start of that journey in this incredible career. For as long as they need my help. I share skills, knowledge, realistic advice, and guidance for practice. 

Vicki: Lisa Cherry is my guest on this podcast episode today, and it was such a joy to be able to talk to her, ask questions, learn from every single thing that she said because that's what I did throughout this whole conversation. I was actually quite nervous about speaking to Lisa. Not only because I've read her books, followed her on social media, soaked up everything that she says and shares, but also because, and I, and I left it in the conversation for you to hear, but also because the first time we had arranged to meet virtually to do this [00:01:00] podcast, I just completely forgot I'd put it in my diary for the wrong time and ended up missing it 

and genuinely was really embarrassed about that. And again, it, I left it in the conversation because I think it's important for you to hear, it brought me back to all the times that I've been late for something, been late for people turned up to their houses because of one thing or another, 

and opening the conversation with Lisa, demonstrating that in action, that empathy and that holding space and,

and that reminder of what it is to be human. Just really set the tone for the rest of the conversation and.

I also, I've listened to it back a couple of times now just to take in everything that Lisa shares, but I can hear myself. Listening and thinking things through and actually missed so many questions because as Lisa was talking, I was trying to process what she was saying and think about my own reflections at the same time, and,

 And it was just [00:02:00] genuinely lovely to be in that conversation. We talk about so much in this episode, but part of what we talk about is shifts in organizations from in person to virtual post covid. And although I am a lot more used to connecting with people, In a virtual way.

I still think it's really special when somebody has the ability, capacity, quality, to hold such a safe space for another person in a virtual way,

and Lisa did that and does that. So I just know how much you are gonna take away from this conversation. 

And I don't think I've ever said this about any of the episodes, 

but I really think that you will get so much more from this if you listen to it more than once. Like I said, I've listened to it a couple of times, and every time I pick up something different and something new. So yes, I'm very grateful. Thank you, Lisa, for coming on the podcast for sharing all your wisdom[00:03:00] I will start waffling and let you listen. Here it is.

Lisa, thank you very much for coming on the podcast today. 

Lisa: It's very lovely to be here. Thank you for asking me 

Vicki: and thank you for, because this is the second time that we had a time arranged and the first time I just completely missed it. I had it in my diary for a certain time cause I was fixed on it.

 And you were very gracious and I'm very sorry, . I should have said that before we started recording. Really. That's 

Lisa: fine. Honestly, listen, how any of us get up at all and get to everything at all is quite a mystery to me, and I do think that the whole pandemic approach. To work and life has completely and utterly meant that people are working double to what they used to work.

And we have to be really compassionate with each other about that because trying to remember everything and every person and every name and [00:04:00] every, it's difficult, isn't 

Vicki: it? . Yeah. I think, it's that thing of not wanting to be late or wanting to be a certain place certain time because, it's about a first impression, isn't it? Because you turn up to somebody's house late. You've lost that chance for that first impression and you're completely reliant then on the other person to have that compassion and understanding.

But sometimes they might not be able to have it. So I think it wasn't just then about the podcast, it was then about all the times where I've been late for somebody or all the times where I've wanted to be on time. 

Lisa: Yeah, it's how we want to be seen as well, isn't it?

And we can't always be seen. in the way that we want to be seen in much the same way is we can't always reach the standard that we have for ourselves. Yeah. And the sooner we come to terms with that, and I think that's such a poignant place to start on a social work podcast. You know, the, as soon as we come to terms with that and have.[00:05:00]

Generosity of spirit and compassion towards ourselves than it is much easier to manage where we fall short or be human. In our interactions and we can model that self-compassion, which in turn then helps other people as 

Vicki: well. 

Definitely. , so for people who are listening who don't know the name, Lisa Cherry, how would you introduce yourself and talk about the work that you do and who you are? 

Lisa: Oh, my, oh my. So how would I introduce. . Well, I'm going to start with the basics really, which is that I'm a woman in my fifties.

I have two adult children, and I have spent a lifetime trying to change cultures and systems in very different ways. I started off doing that in the system as a young person. Then. [00:06:00] In going to study in the early nineties, and then in my work. Which was predominantly in leaving care teams working with young people coming out of care, and then in education.

 And then more recently, in the last 12 years looking really at how we shift systems and cultures using a trauma-informed framework. And I do that through consultancy, training, speaking, writing, and generally Generally living it all day. It's quite strange isn't, it's not the kind of thing you just, it doesn't feel for me like the kind of thing that I do.

 With any kind of boundaries, you know, it's like, it's my life, it's my complete life. And there are periods where I step back and take a break or I think, right, I must go swimming this morning even if it means I start late or, but you know, it's never far [00:07:00] away. And I think for people who aren't working in very vocational, Professions all aren't working from their passion.

It must look absolutely overwhelming from the outside looking in. But I don't know. I don't know any other way to be. So there we are. . 

Vicki: Yeah. I often wonder what it must feel like to not that you have to have a vocational career, to have that kind of level of empathy. But what would it feel like to not have the knowledge that we have sometimes?

Or what would it feel like if you just saw a system at surface level? Like would you feel this almost sense of relief of like, this is the way life is? Because I think in social work you can't help but just dig beneath the surface. And you often don't like or enjoy what you find, but it's like your eyes are opened and you can't close them again.

I think 

Lisa: that's a really beautiful way of putting it. And I think one of the greatest gifts that the social work profession has is something that I try and [00:08:00] move into other sectors and I think has begun that journey. And that's reflection. You know, that ability to step back, take a breath, and just reflect on what's going on.

And if you are in really healthy, Settings, you're given space to do that as well. There's that understanding that doing nothing is doing something. And that actually having a moment and having time to just think about what you are about to do, why you are about to do it, or what you've just done, why did you do.

And just have that within you. So yeah, I think, I love that idea of course, that you know, once your eyes are open, you can't close 'em. I think you are absolutely right. You can't unseen what you have seen. 

Vicki: Yeah, and I don't, wouldn't have it any other way. 

So there've been lots of positive shifts in organizations and agencies considering trauma [00:09:00] informed practice for new social workers who are listening, who have heard the term trauma informed, 

how would you begin to explain that to them? 

Lisa: So I would describe trauma informed practice as a framework. And I think this is where it can get quite confusing cuz people think that it's an intervention of itself and I guess in some ways it is, but actually you can apply it to anything because it's a framework that's underpinned by principles.

And those principles are safety, trust, and transparency, peer support. Collaboration. cultural humility, , but they're principles that allow us to have a different lens on what we are doing, on how we look at something that is to run through absolutely everything.

And again, this can be misunderstood. [00:10:00] Trauma inform suggests that you've arrived somewhere, that you've become it. And of course, it's back to that beautiful world reflection that we started with, which is really, it's an invitation to be in a constant state of reflection about ensuring that we are preventing harm, that we are mitigating harm, where it's already happened, and that as system services and settings, we're not adding to.

and 

Vicki: how do you even begin to do that, it's probably too big a question that I'm even asking, but in a system like social care where , the ethics and values of many social workers would lend themselves to wanting to work in that trauma informed way.

Absolutely. However the systems that are around them, and how that has changed and how political structures impacted, and you know, so much risk aversion. [00:11:00] Where do you start with that? 

Lisa: Yeah. Well, you start with your senior leadership team. You know it's not much more complicated than that.

I guess what I would say is if you're trying to work in that way from the bottom up, you're going to burn out. It doesn't matter whether you're in education, whether you're in social work, you can't do that on your own. And I think sometimes people who are very driven to work in that way will try and do it on their own and then wonder why they're in absolute pieces.

But you can't do that if you are. Part of a strategy that has full support, full comprehension, full understanding from the senior leadership team right the way up to wherever it, it heads to really. And most research in fact all research I've seen on culture change, it starts with leadership always.

So if you don't have that in place, that's not going to work, which is why you have. [00:12:00] Particular places, spaces, teams that have very high turnover of staff, for example. Because what's happening is the people who are doing the work, the direct work are burning out, they're not understood and taken care of.

Their own lived experiences are not are not able to be part of how they show up. Then we just see these. Environments that are full of shame and blame and judgment, and it becomes a toxic mess. And so people leave because if you can catch that quickly enough, why would you stay? You're not going to stay.

 And there are lots of local authorities and lots of teams and lots of services that really understand that. And so thinking about changing a system is about your recruitment. It's about how you look after your new recruit. It's about your policies and procedures. It's about how you understand collective care.

It's about the environment [00:13:00] that people work in. It understands that if you are not okay, the work can't be done because it starts with me. It starts with me. So I have a responsibility to be the best that I can be so that I can show up and I can show up in a healthy. in a healthy way. And there's a responsibility of the people around me to ensure that I have the space to do that.

Does that make 

Vicki: sense? Yeah, definitely. , I mean, it makes sense in terms of the. The levels of burnout that we see. It's mainly new social workers I work with, go in with that passion and with that dedication and that real want and need to work in a trauma informed where you are using those underlying principles.

And then they do come up against so much and. Burnout, like you [00:14:00] said, and I suppose the, when you were talking about the feelings of shame and blame and guilt, they're often the feelings that we hear from parents and carers and children, young people that we work with. So I guess whatever's at the top, It trickles down in so many ways, and I suppose I'm thinking even if you had a social worker who was working with all those principals, if they were then not supported by a senior leadership team, ultimately that lack of support would then trickle down into a family and a child and a young person.

Lisa: Absolutely. You cannot do this work if you don't have the right things in place in a system. And actually, what I would say to your new social workers is when you go for an interview, interview them, ask them the question. What do you understand by trauma informed practice and how does it show up in this [00:15:00] service?

In other words, how do I know that I'm going to feel safe, that I'm gonna have o opportunities for peer support, that I'm going to be able to work in collaboration, that I'm going to have my Gender, ethnicity, cultural experiences. Understood. You know, ask those questions when you go for an interview, you know, and you can see on somebody's face if you get, you know, if you get that look on someone's face, that's like, who?

Coming in here, you know, asking all these questions, then it's not for you. But if someone's face lights up and go, yes, you are the person we want in our team because we are striving towards this. So don't be shy. New social workers, get yourself in that seat for your interview and you ask the questions as well, because.

If you are not getting that for you, it will not long before you are absolutely unable to give that to anyone else. 

Vicki: I'm smiling because I've had that conversation about three [00:16:00] times in the past week or so of people being really nervous about interviews and I'm saying, but what are you gonna ask them?

 Because it's as much of you, you know, you are gonna make a judgment as well, aren't you? And I even wonder if it should be taken one step further that actually. Local authorities should almost, or organizations should expect the questions that they're gonna be asked and answer them even before the interview with, you know, the conversation I had last week was about, anti-racism training, anti-racist policy and almost them preempt those questions because where you have a retention issue, it's about, well what are you doing about it?

I I know there are wider systems around it. It's not just Down to individuals, but I suppose I'm always trying to think about the problems that a new social worker would come to me to, and then how that could be somehow solved 

Lisa: yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 

Vicki: So when, cuz you must meet a lot of new social workers and experienced social workers, when you are delivering training or working in organizations, [00:17:00] can you pin.

A specific challenge or the, or what you think the biggest challenge is at the moment for new social workers. 

Lisa: Oh, wow. Well, we've just hit on quite a few, haven't we? Yeah. So other challenges that would go with that? I guess the sheer magnitude of the work and the sense of overwhelm that can leave you with you know, when you first start trying to do the work. . I mean, I remember going home in the evening and thinking if I stayed here all night, I wouldn't get this finished, so I may as well go and have a sleep.

You know, . Yeah. Just that real sense of overwhelm because this is big work. It's big work. It's never finished. It's never finished. And so if you are the kind of personality that wants things to have a beginning, a middle, and an end, [00:18:00] humans aren't really built like that. We're a bit of a mess, you know? And and I think if you can kind of come to terms with that's really helpful.

 Because there's all the system stuff we talk about, but there's also. Who arrives into the world, you know, and all the stuff that we bring. The other thing I would say is you have a real responsibility to deal with your stuff. You know, like coming into social work, there are high numbers of people who come into the profession, myself included, who have a history of using the.

service, maybe as a child had a social worker, or sometimes you've seen mental health teams and criminal justice teams have really good programs that support and help people with lived experience to become part of that team. Some do that well, some not so well, but in, in children's services. I know that one of the things that I often [00:19:00] talk about is how I didn't have the kind of supervision that lent itself to me being able to explore.

 When things pressed my buttons, so when things happened, That where that situation ended and I began. Yeah. And that, I think if you start feeling, you know, if you are arriving into this, you know, you, I don't know, maybe you've lived around domestic violence or you have had a social worker as a child, or you've experienced school exclusion or any of the multitude of reasons why.

you might have come into social work that's linked to lived experience is really how do you take responsibility for dealing with your stuff and which of that happens in a supervision [00:20:00] session, and which of that happens in a therapy session? And what happens in the supervision session if you don't have supervision?

that enables you to do that. I think that's one of the things that I really feel was missing for me because I was pretty much in denial that I'd had the experiences that I'd had cuz I was just, it felt it triggered shame and I still see that. You know, however much better we are. However, we have more spaces where people can show up as they are, and there's still shame and stigma poverty as well.

Growing up in poverty is another one of those kind of experiences that bring shame and stigmatization with it. And where we have those things, I think we need to have really good teams. We need to have supervision that. is intelligent enough and mature enough to [00:21:00] understand the difference between supervision and therapy and the difference between dealing with something outside of myself and then what happens within me when I'm dealing with it.

Vicki: And is that part of what you would do when you work with an organization then bringing those principles into supervision as one of the tasks that is completed with social workers? 

Lisa: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because if you don't have those spaces then we don't. We don't have the safety that we need.

 We can assume that there is no them and us. , there are not these really well-rounded, healthy professional types who fell off a tree and landed in a team, you know, and then the other people that need help. You know, we are decades away from that idea. So if we are really fully embracing, there is no them and us.

And I do think [00:22:00] the pandemic helped with that because it really highlighted some of the challenges that. people we were working with, were having, but then equally people in our team, our teams were having or whatever. And I think that really helped that. And I don't know if we've really held onto that, but I hope the shift has happened and we, you know, if we are humans and we are alive, Then things are going to happen to us and there is no them and us.

Vicki: One of the, and I suppose what I started to do came post pandemic if we are even post pandemic, but the, there was such a shift in organizational environments in the work came into home and. We didn't have that communal office space, so a lot of social workers didn't cause [00:23:00] it was closed and I found that lots of new social workers missed out on learning from being in the physical environment of, for example, an office listening to phone calls.

Things that probably didn't seem, that seemed nothing when I was a new social worker. But just being around other social workers or being able to go out on joint visits or sitting on meetings, have meetings in person. , how much do you think the pandemic shifted the way new social workers learn? Because I'm probably asking a really longwinded question here, but I suppose what I'm thinking about is the way that, how much we soak in from our physical work environment, the people around us being in that space.

What do we lose when that changes? Or what do we gain when that changes? Probably not a very clear question. It's just more of a thought. It's a great question. 

Lisa: Really. . All questions [00:24:00] are good questions. Yeah. that's another top tip. All questions are good question. Yeah. I guess you are talking about all the things that we learn when we don't know we are learning.

So all the things we pick up when we don't realize that's what's going on. I mean, yeah, I work, I've worked from home for years, but nothing really prepared me for pandemic working from home, which was a very isolated, exhausting. Experience. So if I think about, well, what were you doing before then?

Well, I was traveling a lot. I would go and work in coffee shops. So I've got that sense of other humans, other beating hearts, other central nervous systems around me. I've got the lovely experience of someone making me a good coffee. You know, there's all those things. , you could almost think don't matter.

And some people [00:25:00] fell into that trap. I think you know, thinking you can get everything delivered. You don't ever have to leave the house. You can buy a, you know, an exercise bike. We won't name the brand, but we know who they were. Absolute fortune for a bike that doesn't go anywhere. You know, and I.

For social workers. So when I when we went online fully and I started working with sometimes new teams that had never even met, which was really interesting. I remember working with an early help team who had never even met. And so they not only were. New into the work, but they were new into the team.

And if you think about all that bonding that has to take place with people to build trust and to feel safe with those people all of that was missing. , has it impacted, you know, or have [00:26:00] we kind of quickly ran back into doing things? Do you know? I don't know the answer to that. I suspect because we're all different, some people will have just completely bounced back into the way things were prior.

 And for other people, you know, they may never. may never be the same again. I mean, I know people who've had long covid. I know people who've never been able to, you know, they're much more reluctant about going out still and doing stuff. So I guess it depends. on the individual, but also on what support mechanisms they have around them.

The way they lived before. Were they anxious and nervous before? So going online with everything really helped. Did they find it enriching? You know, with so complex as people. And I guess that's leads as neatly to thinking about how well do you know who you are? , you know, how [00:27:00] well do you know who you are?

Because if you know who you are, it's much easier to communicate with other people when you need to have something in place that. Helpful. I know there's no point sitting in a meeting telling me that lunch is at one o'clock and then it running over because at five past one, I will have to let you know that it's five past one.

And if I don't eat, I'm not going to be best placed for the rest of this meeting. And I know that's not for everybody. Not everyone's as like that, but I think, you know, if you know that, if you know that you've got to. Eat at certain times or if you haven't had a walk or whatever it is that keeps you kind of okay to deal with what's going to come at you.

 Then you might not give those things to yourself, and no one's gonna knock on the door, no one's gonna knock on the door. Or if you're in a really healthy space and this was lost online, somebody would be able to say, do you know what? I haven't [00:28:00] seen you have a break yet, or, , you didn't take lunch yesterday.

You better take lunch today. You know those little things, and I guess there's some of the things that were missing, having other people around you be helping you, supporting you, be okay with your feelings, you know? 

Vicki: Yeah. and I guess they're not smaller things, but they might appear smaller things that I see new social workers didn't get, or even they're not new now.

They might be social workers who , are three years qualified, but they did all their training virtually or they. , they did their A S Y E, virtually no one to say to kind of signal, do you know what, this isn't going anywhere. Maybe just end the phone call and pick it up later on. Or no one to just, like you said, recognize when you've not had lunch or, come on, let's go out for a walk.

And I guess it depends on different organizations, but I don't know if that has fully come back yet or if it needs to be sort of re embedded within teams. And then I think if that hasn't come back for new social [00:29:00] workers, , what is being modeled to them that they then go and take out to families. And I wonder if, I know a lot of new social workers then struggle with that face-to-face interaction.

 I've had new social workers who, you know, they've done all their meetings online. So then when they sit down with a family and with a group of people, they're just completely lost. In what way? Does trauma informed or do the trauma informed principles support new social workers post pandemic?

Lisa: Well, I guess they would include the art of noticing, which I think is really what you are talking about and where I got to in my very long answer to your very long question, which is, you know how do we notice what needs to be noticed and if we're truly creating safe environments? Which is the first principle.

[00:30:00] Then we are opening up a space for noticing what helps us to feel safe. If we're thinking about, well, what does it mean to me to feel safe? What do I need? Sometimes we don't always know what we need to feel safe, but we certainly know when we go into an environment and we don't feel safe, and it can be things like the lighting or things like.

You know the, where the door is or there's hard chairs or lots of the things that we find in some of the environments that we end up in, in various large buildings, you know, the council buildings, for example. How do we. Think about safety for ourselves and how do we think about safety collectively, how do we collectively feel psychologically safe?

Because yes, we're talking about [00:31:00] physical safety. We talk about that a lot, I think. But do we talk about what it feels like to be psychologically safe? What I mean by that is do we talk about what it feels like to have a system that's calm, that's regulated? and what happens when we're activated. You know, if we bring those kind of discussions to play, then we start to be thinking about the principles of trauma-informed practice and peer support.

You know, we need to be thinking about peer support that isn't controlled by a manager. , you know, there's an understanding that people need to talk with each other and they might not have very nice things to say, and that's okay , you know, but there is an active encouragement of those spaces rather than being threatened or challenged by them.

 And again, collaboration. How often do we give people opportunities to collaborate with each other, and how do we do that as well with people we are [00:32:00] working alongside? I love Family group work, and I'm really. . I love the work that goes on in Camden. For example, in the social work teams in Camden, you'll be your listeners hopefully are very familiar with Tim and Becca and the work that goes on down there around relational activism.

 And these are collaboration fully in the community with everybody. Everybody. Again, there's no them and us and I love all of. So I think there we can start a building, community building trust, peer support. You're really starting to dig in there into some trauma-informed practice. . 

Vicki: Yeah, I, that's actually the reason I contacted you, cuz when I spoke to Tim Fisher, he was like, you should speak to Lisa Cherry.

She'd be great to have on. But yes, so he came on and had a chat. I was actually thinking when you were saying that about the connection between all three. So I worked for a local [00:33:00] authority and I was a conference chair, child protection conferences and the parent group. Came up with some of the designs for the room and the space and the physical environment and how that all connected and how the directions to the room were 

animals on the floor because they said when they go into a building, their eyes are looking down on the floor and if it's animals and not names, they don't need to go to anybody and say, I'm here for this child protection meeting. I suppose I was thinking of that example as something that connects all three of the things that you were talking about, listening to people with lived experience, that collaboration, but then also that physical environment and space because it can be sometimes difficult to change the physical environment if you are in, like you said, a big building or big office, but actually what can you do to soften the edges, I suppose, because that then has an impact on our.

Physiological reaction, doesn't 

Lisa: it? Absolutely. Yeah. [00:34:00] That's a gorgeous example. And you're, you are right. You know when you go into spaces that feel psychologically safe. and as though you've been thought about that helps us feel calm. That helps us feel safe. That helps settle the system. You know, we go into spaces trying to detect safety.

That's what we do. That's what your social workers. Do who are listening. That's what people who are going to speak to social workers do. If we understand that, that's what humans do, that we arrive somewhere and we are immediately the body goes, kicks into detecting safety by finding a face that's smiling, by looking for, you know, whether that's animals on the floor or listening to people using language that doesn't label shame and stigmatize so much sector language is labeling and stigmatizing.

All of those things, they're the things that really make a difference for all of us if we think about our own experiences. , a good [00:35:00] example that lots of people recognize is when you phone up the doctors, what's that phone call like? What's the person who picks up the phone? Like, what questions are they going to an ask you?

Do you want to answer them? When you start to answer them? Can you feel your body getting agitated because you are answering these questions and you know that person's in a public space? Have they said your name out loud? Do people know who's in the queue stood next to that person? You know, there's all of that stuff going on, and that's what we're all like, and we will all have that on the spectrum depending on what we bring to the party and the experiences that we've had in life before.

So safety becomes everything for us as humans and how we create those spaces. 

Vicki: You talk so much about language and words used and there probably isn't even in any way near enough time to go into some of the. conversations about language, but I've [00:36:00] heard them on kind of view other podcasts.

I often think about the word assessment because I talk to new social workers a lot about undertaking assessments. That's one of the tasks that they have to do and they can't get away from that task. So I'm really interested in how they can do that in the kindest, most compassionate way possible, 

cuz they still have this legislation that they need to work under. , but they want to work and support in a certain way, and they want that to have a positive outcome . But the word assessment, when you even say it, it has connotations of tests and exams and you either get it wrong or you get it right, and that's before you've even started with a family or a child.

That word assessment is already, I'm testing you. . 

Lisa: I mean, I guess, , that's about thinking around we're going to, look at some things [00:37:00] together that could help us create a picture about what's happened, where we are and where we wanna get to, and really good examples of what can be quite intrusive Questioning.

 Or if you go and see a holistic therapist, if you went to go and have, I don't know a good homeopathic initial discussion will be like an assessment, but I can't imagine it would be described of in that way at all. It would be approached in. , you know, I'm gonna ask you a few questions.

You don't have to answer them all. Whatever you feel like you, , you can share something about, that's fine. It doesn't matter that we arrive there, we want the answer to every question. You know, like, let's just at least feel like I don't have to answer all the questions or that we can revisit a question later on when we've built some [00:38:00] more relationship.

I think that can be really tricky, can't it? Because there's an agenda. I've got these questions. I've got half an hour now to get the answer to them and I will get them. But you know, humans don't work like that. You're not getting anything out of me approaching me like that. I can tell you that now. Yeah. And I, I have no cause not to sit and have a discussion with anyone about anything.

 Or feel in any way intruded upon. I just, that's not, that would not invite me to answer questions, but if someone said, you know, we're gonna look at this and see how we can work together to make things a bit better. I think just those subtle language change. are helpful for people, again, in terms of that feeling safe because so much, social work is about relationships.

It's not about anything else. So if you don't have that relationship [00:39:00] and you haven't cultivated that place of safety, then the power dynamic isn't right. Yeah it's not right. 

Vicki: and I often say to new social workers that cuz there's this perception of time and I don't have enough, so I have to get it done.

But it's actually where you invest your time at the beginning might that it's not all about time, but it will then save you time in the future, even if you just have that 10 or 15 minutes of not doing anything and not asking any questions. You might then have some answers or some insight a little bit later down the line, but that's quite difficult to do if you are in an organization, which is you don't have enough time or you've got X amount of days to, to complete this assessment.

When you've worked in organizations, I'm interested, you might be able to go into all the words, but are there certain words or phrases that you have changed or encourag. [00:40:00] Organizations to change that have made a top down different to that organization. 

Lisa: Well, there's lots of language that I'm, I talk about when I'm talking about language.

 I mean, I think hard to reach is one of my bug bear. Really that I ask people to look at what I ask people to do is to deconstruct the language that they use and if they can look at what they're using and ask the question, does this problemize the individual? Then change it because actually, I couldn't say to you this is a particular thing that I know has changed because all the language that I see across all the sectors is located as a problem in the person.

And what I really want people to do is to deconstruct the language in their [00:41:00] sector and. , we have made changes with language children in care councils around the country manage to remove lack as a terminology. I do hope that people don't walk around talking about 'LACS' and 'CIN's which I find really distressing.

and I know it's really easy to do because language is so layered. There's the language that happens in policy that will put acronyms everywhere. There's the language in the way that people speak to each other in meetings in shortcuts, but most importantly, there's what does that language do to the person it's referring to?

How does that person internalize that language and create a narrative that takes them into adulthood? And you might have seen a little clip that I put [00:42:00] on Twitter that looks at beyond parental control and what that does to a person and how that leaves a person feeling in adulthood about who they are.

 Being beyond control. It's the most loaded expression I can think of, and social work's full of that. So my invitation is less thinking about specifics, but actually think about what you use. Think about what your team uses. Think about how your team speaks to each other. and pull out those phrases and deconstruct them and do that in team meetings.

Do it together, and then ask people using the service, what would you like? What would you like this word to be? Do you have a problem with this word? What do you think about this? What do you think about? This, I've just done some focus groups actually.

[00:43:00] Well, I haven't done the focus groups. I created the information, the questions, and then people in their different teams went often did focus groups asking questions around language. Even when you've got so much going on that the last, , you think the last thing people are gonna want is to be asked questions.

Actually, we all like to be asked questions about things. Really? Yeah. So, yeah. Language. Oh God, I could talk for hours about language. It's I think it's, until we change the language we are not going to, we're not gonna change very much at all. Because the language is loaded. 

Vicki: Yeah. That, and it's such a big undertaking, isn't it?

I've been in meetings before where a term has been used. And there's almost a beat, or like an acronym is used like in maybe an education one, and there's a beat.

And you know that no one else knows what it stands for, but nobody then wants to say, sorry, what does that stand for? So it takes you to say, to do that. And once you do, you see the relief on everybody's [00:44:00] face because they didn't know what it stood for either.

So it's all those group dynamics of individuals, isn't it? And it just takes one person to be the one to say we're not using that word anymore in this team. Or what can we use instead? 

Lisa: Yeah. And also a chair has a responsibility to say, just to lay out, can we not speak? Can we not use acronyms?

We're working across, you know, across sectors here. Or what, whatever type of meeting it is. And to lay that out at the beginning. actually can can we not do that? Can we not use labels and acronyms? 

Vicki: Yeah. Because people slip into it so easily. Don't even when you kind of would set or put that boundary in place, it then needs that.

And I suppose that's what you're talking about, that the approach and the principles, it's never done because you constantly have to remind yourself or remind teams of people to undo what they've always done. 

Lisa: And that's why we have to be kind to ourselves. You know, I'm [00:45:00] immersed in this stuff and I get it wrong.

I get it wrong all the time. Like making mistakes is one of the things I'm really good at. . Yeah. And you know what we need around, as are people to go. Yeah. I was really curious when you said that one of the things that it did, you know, it made me feel a little bit, you know, whatever, and for people to feel safe.

You know, if we know that people actually want us to be the best that we can be, it's much easier to trust people and having those people around us that can say, that can be honest with us, and that can highlight stuff to us. Not from a place of criticism or judgment, but you know, I mean, I'm navigating new stuff all the time.

I'm in my fifties young people today grappling with things that I've never. I never grappled with in my developmental years. And that would be the case for probably most people over 35. And so I'm all, I'm constantly learning, I'm constantly getting my head around all sorts of [00:46:00] complexities. Like what it is to wire up online, what is it?

To develop your internal architecture online. That's not something I experienced. That never being alone. The things that young people are grappling with, particularly around gender identity. I mean, you know that's outside of my generational experience at the level of complexity is now I happen to love what young people have done around sexuality and sex positivity.

I think it's fantastic. . And so I'm constantly learning around that aspect of things as well, and that's all we can do. And so that kind of curiosity, kindness and generosity of spirit, we need to extend to each other. What I find where people struggle to do that is when they haven't yet extended it to [00:47:00] themselves.

So if you're still beating yourself up about everything, you are probably beating up other people about it too. So the work starts with me. How do I stop beating myself up about this stuff so that I can extend my sense of compassion to everyone else. 

Vicki: That's such good advice for people listening.

Cause I think that's a very common feature of new social workers. Not that it, they're one homogenous group, but it's, you know, it's a theme that comes up again and again. I think with the job, for anyone who is listening and is just feeling that complete overwhelm and they're trying to learn all those new skills, they're trying not to beat themself up all the time, and they've got work tomorrow and they're going on a home.

What is the simplest thing or action or task that they could say or do with a child or with a young person that they're working with to start supporting [00:48:00] their journey and relationship building? 

Lisa: Go for a swim. Seriously, go for a walk, go for a swim, go for a cycle, ride, something that moves your body, something that means that you have to breathe in ways that settle your system.

And I know how hard it is, honestly, I'm so overwhelmed like most days. And they're the days where, you know, I'm kind of, I've got time. I haven't got time to go for a swim, I haven't got time. And you know, all that noise that we give ourselves. I have to do that. I have to go for a walk or I have to go and have a swim or whatever it is.

 Because we carry this stuff in our body. So sometimes it's not about what we articulate, it's not about the prefrontal cortex, it's about the body. What are we holding onto? And when we move the body, we shift the energy and everything changes. So if you are doing something that's particularly [00:49:00] difficult or something that you are struggling with and you're feeling that sense of overwhelm.

Walk to that meeting, which is the other thing that was missing during the pandemic. Bouncing back to that question, because it's that act of moving the body in between doing things that helps you shake off what's just been, get yourself into the zone, ready for what's to come. So it might feel counterintuitive to meet your needs in that way.

But that's the best thing that you could do. And that was certainly advice from a manager that I had once. He didn't say, go for a swim or go for a walk. He said, have a cup of tea. . There's nothing that's gonna happen in the time it takes you to have a cup of tea. That hasn't happened already. So have a cup of tea and then we'll deal with it and sound advice from somebody who was wiser than me at the time.

 And that [00:50:00] would be my advice. Just take that time to calm your system and shift the energy in your body. 

Vicki: Yeah. Cause and I suppose that's about then not going into anything before you've done even the tiniest little bit of work on yourself or checked in with where you are, cuz you're not gonna be able to.

Elicit that change or do the piece of direct work that you want to do or have the conversation that you want to have if you are not in the right space for it. 

Lisa: Oh, I'm just, honestly, I'm doing this and I'm thinking about all these, you know early career social workers and I'm just thinking, God, I wish we'd had podcasts in the nineties and I wish social media groups and we could have had all these conversations and we're so.

Fortunate that, you know, we have all this now. Even though sometimes it can add to the overwhelm because there's so many different things to listen to and you have to be very discerning, which I guess would be another top tip. Be really [00:51:00] discerning about what you listen to, where you spend your time, how you spend your time.

 But that is something that you learn better over time. I think. 

Vicki: Yeah, and it's not, I mean, obviously have a podcast, but I think there's no replacement for that direct contact that you can have with somebody. There's no replacement for that team. Once you have it and it's set up and it's positive, there's no replacement for that.

It should never be replacing the education that you get from university. It, you know, it should always be as well as not instead of, 

Lisa: yeah, absolutely. 

Vicki: So I always end podcasts asking guests the advice that they would give to themselves when they first started out in their career.

So you might have already shared anyway with your top tips, but is there anything that you would say to yourself if you could go back when you first started out? 

Lisa: I think I've probably shared lots of top tips through this, but you know, I guess. I guess what I'd wanna say to people [00:52:00] is this work you're doing is so important and so life-changing that people that you are working alongside deserve you to be the best that you can be.

So invest in yourself. Prioritize yourself so that you can show up the best that you can to do. Incredible work. So there you go. 

Vicki: That's perfect. So for anybody who wants to know more about you or read your books, if they haven't read them already where can they find you 

Lisa: so you can find conversations that makes make a difference for children and young people on.

Amazon you can find the brightness of Stars, which is about care, experience, stories from adults that's also on Amazon. there's the lisacherry.co.uk website, Twitter @_lisacherry. And [00:53:00] the website for trauma informed consultancy services is ticservicesltd.com so lots of places but I've been around quite a while, so if you just put me in Google, you'll be able to find me and it would be lovely to connect 

Vicki: with you.

Lovely. Well, thank you very much for talking to me today. It's been a really good conversation. Thank you for having me.

. Again, a huge thank you to Lisa for giving up the time to talk to me and for sharing so much, so much that is helpful for new social workers 

and even after that conversation for me, I think even when I know something, it sometimes takes a reminder from another person. So the way Lisa. You know, moving your body to shift the energy around that really stuck with me. Certain things stick with me from every conversation, 

and that's something that even since speaking to her that I've been a little bit more intentional about. So I would love to hear your takeaways from this [00:54:00] conversation, your feedback, what you found useful, helpful, applicable for practice. 

All the information that Lisa shares about how to contact her, her websites, the details are all in the show notes. Lisa has two incredible books, conversations that make a difference with children and young people, 

and the brightness of stars both I would highly recommend to any new social workers. 

So as I do at the end of every podcast, I Invite you To slow down To take a little pause in your day Just to have a moment for you Reflect on what you've heard Think about anything that you were going to take forward into your day into your week Into your month I know that you can always come back to having The tiny moment of reflection Whenever you need[00:55:00] Thank you so much for listening and take care of.