Theory and Reflection in Social Work with Siobhan Maclean

It was amazing to talk to Siobhan Maclean about theory and reflection for newly qualified social workers.

Siobhan Maclean is a social worker, practice educator, trainer and writer. She set up Kirwin Maclean Associates Limited, which is now one of the leading independent publishers in the social and health care and social work arena.

In this episode we discuss:
-Siobhan's journey in social work
-the challenges for new social workers using theory
-the connection and disconnection of research and theory
-the future for social work theory

About Siobhan:
About Siobhan - Kirwin Maclean (siobhanmaclean.co.uk)
Social Work Student Connect Profile / Twitter
Siobhan Maclean (@SiobhanMaclean) / Twitter


For more advice, guidance and support for newly qualified social workers:
Social Work Education | Social Work Sorted
Vicki | Social Work Sorted (@socialworksorted) • Instagram photos and videos

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Transcript

0:00

Hi, and welcome to social work. Sorted the podcast. I'm Vicki and I started this podcast. As part of my platform for newly qualified social workers, and I've been able to have some amazing guests and really, really insightful conversations. And this episode is no different. I am talking to Siobhan Maclean on the podcast today. I'm sure. So many of you listening will know Siobhan's name from who writing her books, her resources for students and social workers. And I'm really excited to listen to the conversation I was saying to Siobhan after we finished recording, I feel really lucky that I get to have these conversations in real time. And I genuinely learned so much from them. I was first introduced to Siobhan's resources as a student and still use those in my work today. So it was amazing to be able to speak to her and learn from her. And talk all things, social work, theory and ideas. So I hope you can take something from our conversation.

Vicki: 1:02

so Siobhan, thank you so much for agreeing to come on the podcast as a guest

Siobhan: 1:07

today. You're very welcome, Vicky. Thank you for asking me.

Vicki: 1:11

I think like me, most of the people listening will know who you are and what you do. I have some, maybe some American listeners, maybe they don't know, but they probably do. But for anyone who doesn't know, could you introduce who you are and how you would define your role, your job?

Siobhan: 1:28

Okay. So, I'm Siobhan and I'm a social worker. That's just how I, I always describe myself still as a social worker, so I'm not in frontline practice, but I'm still a social worker. I'm still a practice educator, still work with students as a practice educator. I've been a social worker for 32 years this year and, do training and development roles now and have done for, or it been nine or 10 years. So I had a stroke about nine years ago, which I've written about and talked about a little bit. And, after that, I wasn't able to return back to for like frontline practice, because it's just some of the issues that I'm left with. Which largely, if I'm honest with you, largely, it just relates to names. I'm not good with recalling names. So that's problematic because if a police officer's phoning you about a child and you can't connect the name with the child. So it was too problematic for me to return to, frontline practice, which I had done alongside of training for many years. And now I just do full time training and practice teaching. That's me. I love social work. I've been a social worker all my life. I went straight from school to do social work. and yeah, I just love it. I think it's a great profession. I know that

Vicki: 2:45

like, like me and most people listening will probably have a book with your name on it as, as the author as well, in our collections. so can you talk a little bit more about your journey into social work from school and how you got to where you are today, or how you got to frontline practice.

Siobhan: 3:03

Okay. So, I was thinking about this, cuz you sent me the questions beforehand or like an overview of the questions beforehand and I've just moved to Northern Ireland. And so today, one of the things I was doing was registering with the Northern island social care council, cause I'm currently registered with social work England. So I'm doing the, the changeover and, and I had to put into that, you know, when I qualified, I was thinking, gosh, it's such a long time. And it really has made me reflect back on my career, but I, I don't remember ever wanting to be anything else. So I do remember being, 13 having their career teacher a thing at school, and they said to me, what do you want to do? And I said, I wanted to be a social worker. And, she said, oh no, no, you don't want to do that. And, and somehow wrote me down as wanting to go into the Navy and was convincing me that was to win the Navy kind, swim. I dunno where that came from. No idea. But back in the day, I mean, people tell me. Still an issue. Now, when they say they wanna be a social worker at school, but you know, you don't get decent advice about it. But back in the day, it was really difficult. You had to be. Well, people told me that you had to be 22 to get on a course. Now that wasn't trip, you had to be 22 at the date you qualified. So my qualification is actually dated on my 22nd birthday. I qualified before I was 22 and it was dated on my 22nd birthday. And the reason that I wanted to be a social worker was I really wanted to work with people with learning disabilities. And that was what drew me. Didn't wanna be a nurse didn't I just, I really wanted to work in a world of learning disabilities. So when I first qualified. I actually went into this, this again, dates me. It was the implementation of the NHS and community care act of 1990, which people now see as like a historical thing, you know, but that was, it was literally being implemented as I qualified. And, I worked as a resettlement officer in the big old Victorian institutions, moving people out into the community. It was an amazing role. and then I worked as. A S w as we were called in those days, which is now obviously an amp. and then I went into working in children's services. So I had quite a, you know, did quite a bit of, of different areas of social work, really. and then I suppose, how did I get to where I am now? Uh, in the late 1990s, I wrote a chapter for a book. And this book came out and it was so expensive. I thought nobody's gonna be able to afford this it's wrong, you know? And, And I was doing quite a lot of practice teaching. I was doing a lot of work on, I think, more for myself, but I was really trying to think about how I could demystify theory because I think it was too difficult. And, and in my, you know, when I was training, I thought it wasn't well taught and I remember really struggling with it. So I wanted to do something about that and I thought, you know, there's there's, I could. Do something with this material that I've developed, but I'm not giving it to a publisher. I didn't like the idea of some of the publishers, so it just set off self-publishing and it grew from there really. I didn't advertise it. It just kind of published a few things and I set up a publishers then that was based on the values and ethics of social work. So, you know, Not for profit. We, we think about, you know, put thought into everything like, who does the printing of our books. You know, we make sure that that's an ethical printers and that sustainability and people aren't working on zero hours contract and people, you know, nobody in the chain of anything that I'm working with is, is badly treated. You know, we, we wanna think about all that kind of thing. Whereas a lot of the larger publishers don't do that. And when you look at the ethics, it's really concerning. So. and I suppose it just kind of grew from there really. and every time I think the question you sent me was how have you progressed to where you are? And I was thinking, well, would I describe it as progress? And in some ways I think it it's just. In social work, sometimes things happen. You don't necessarily always plan them. There's just opportunities and you go with it and you see where it takes you. And, and I think it's a really exciting journey. That's the thing. And I'm still on the journey and it's really exciting now because I'm just moved to Northern Ireland. you know, I'm trying to start up startups and new work, here to I'm I'm trying to set up a retreat for social workers to come and reflect and, you know, sort of a therapeutic environment for social workers. Who've been experiencing ethical stress, that kind of thing. but now I'm being a practice teacher as we're still called in Northern Ireland over here. So I'm, I'm working with students over here. It's so it is, I kind of feel like I'm at the beginning of my career again, because there's a lot of new things I'm needing to learn. The context is different and I think that's the thing about social. It never. Never stay, never get static, never get stale. And, and the profession doesn't and we don't need to either. So I suppose that's a bit about me probably too much, but there, no,

Vicki: 7:52

not at all. No, it's interesting how social work is transferable and has to transfer into life. So it for you and your publishing in the way you manage that, your social work values and ethics, transferring to that. And. Sort of transferring to every part of what we do. Isn't it, it's quite hard to find that different because it's rooted in humanity. I suppose.

Siobhan: 8:18

Mm-hmm I've always said, I think social work, isn't what we do. It's who we are. And I think that's the key thing, you know, it, it, isn't just about what we do. It is about who we are and how we do things. and so whatever you do in life, I think you take your social work. Ethos with you. Yeah,

Vicki: 8:38

definitely. So I suppose most students or new social workers or experienced social workers would hear your name and think social work theory. And you talked a bit there about how you wanted to make it more. Accessible,

Siobhan: 8:53

Yeah. And suppose

Vicki: 8:55

bring it to people from that really expensive book that they might not be able to get or afford into something that was more relatable. So for you now, well, why has it always been that theory and theorizing is so important for social workers.

Siobhan: 9:17

I suppose there's two aspects to my work there's theory and there's reflection. And they're the two things I do a lot of. And actually they're very closely connected really aren't they? but I suppose there's, there's lots of different things really. Sometimes I hear people talking about, and this is an analogy I hear a lot in social work and why we should use social workers. You know, if, if you went to the doctors and said this, you know that you need some treatment, you wouldn't want them to just say, oh, I think this might be a good idea. There should be reason behind it. This should be evidence behind it. And, and yeah, I get that, but I actually think it it's more than that. It isn't just. Explaining the evidence base behind what we do or you know, it, and the knowledge it is about going beyond your gut feeling. So it is about that. It is about going beyond the, not into the knowledge and into the why we're doing what we're doing and having some reason behind it. But I think even deeper than that, it's about what connects us to other social workers. Cause the thing about social work is that each of us could go, you know, I could go and see a family Vicky and you could go and see a family and we might come away with a completely different view of what's going on and why it's happening. And I think the only way that we can. Explain that why you and I have got a different view is because of the theory that's behind it. Cuz theory is really about how we think. So when we, when we can explain the theory, we can explain what our thought process is, why we understand something in a particular way. And I think it, it, it even is almost going beyond that analogy that people use about, you know, you'd want the doctor to have an evidence base behind their intervention, cuz that's about that even. I'm going back, even before that I'm going into, why do we see it like that? Why do we think that? Why do we understand that even before? What are we gonna do about it? It goes right back to just being able to explain. Why we see something in the way that we see it. And in some ways that's one of the other reasons that I've wanted to make theory accessible. It's not just about being accessible to social workers. It's also about being accessible to the people that we're making decisions about because, you know, we make some really significant decisions about people's lives. Children's families, adults, and really, I think people deserve to understand. Why we are doing what we're doing, why we're making the recommendations we're making. And actually that's all about the theory that comes behind it. That's the knowledge base. So in many ways, I just think it's about connections. And I use that word a lot in terms of theory, cuz it's connecting theory with practice, but it's about connecting goes to, well, the professions it's about the connections that we see. In a situation it's all about connectivity, really., and in the same way, social work is very often about connectivity. We've got to connect theory into it. So I don't, I dunno if that explains it, I suppose, in some ways I'm thinking when you sent me an outline of the questions, I was thinking why we couldn't do an hour on each of those. Cause there's almost is so much about theory and why we need it.

Vicki: 12:25

Yeah. I was just thinking then about how. It, you were saying, it's not just for social workers, it's for people who work with us. For me, a lot of direct work fits into psychosocial education. And it's actually then about sharing the theories with the families that we're working with or the children, the young people who it is to say, this is the reason why I'm doing what I'm doing. And for me, that's one of the most enjoyable parts of my job when it isn't just sharing theory. Professionals in inverted commas or whatever the word that we want to use, but actually with the people that we're trying to work with to help them have some insight, I

Siobhan: 13:04

suppose. Yeah. Yeah. I think in, in some ways it's what connects us with social pedagogy. It's that bit about enabling people through learning? I think is really key. Yeah. And so it's not just about. Helping social workers to learn. It's about helping people to learn. And I suppose that's why I think we can draw a lot on learning theories as well in our work with people. I think I understood that more when I became a practice educator and being able to take some of that and connect it all together. So is it's these building blocks and connectivity? I think that theory helps with. Yeah. Yeah.

Vicki: 13:40

So why do you think for nearly qualified social workers or for students on placement or for experienced social workers. Why do you think theory can be such a struggle for them?

Siobhan: 13:55

You know, again, I think it's like we could do a whole hour on that, but there's a few things I think. I don't think it's particularly well taught and I don't want to, you know, be over critical here of, of universities. I know, you know, lecturers have a really tough time, but I think sometimes it's very dry when it's taught. so I don't think it's always very well taught. I think we try and teach too much in, in too short time. And then that kind of makes it quite confusing for people. I think if we ask busy practitioners there, they would say, perhaps they're too busy. They don't have the time to stop and think. So that's another issue. I think though, when we teach theory, we're teaching it to students who might not have a lot of pre-course experience, you know, some might, and then there's different issues there, but let's look at this as someone who's not got a lot of pre-course experience say someone like me, you know, when I went to uni straight from. Not much pre-course experience, I'm learning all this theory. I've got nothing to hang it onto. Then I go out on placement and I can begin to connect it. I can begin to hang it together, but then just when I've got hold of it, you know, I find when I'm working with students and I ask them about theory, sometimes they look like a terrified rabbit court in the headlines and they just get over that. At the point they're qualifying. And then we stop asking the question. So we almost help people to get to that point. And then we stop talking about it. It's not on the professional agenda. How often are social workers asked about theory? How often do social workers get any update training on theory? They don't, you know, I do bits for some authorities and. But whenever I get people coming, they'll always say, oh, I didn't wanna come. Cuz it was theory. But then I came and actually I've really got a lot out of it and I've, but there's not enough of that. There's not enough of it. I almost feel like every social worker should have a theory refresher every year and we don't, we don't get that. So when you're actually in practice and you could really start to connect it, we stop talking about it. And when you do go on training as an experienced practitioner, the training will be about process or procedures, or here's a model of intervention. And very often. If you ask, what's the theory behind this, you won't get a clear answer. So theory just kind of drops off the professional agenda once we qualify. So there's this disconnect, you know, I've said connection is so important, but there's a disconnect between what we're learning and what's actually happening in practice. And then that makes it really hard to make the connections between theory and practice. I think so

Vicki: 16:33

I really you've already answered my next part of the question was how to overcome that. Barrier or whether it's a mental barrier for people believing that they struggle with theory, or they're gonna struggle with theory. And I suppose, like you said, it's about putting it on the professional agenda and it's not just something you associate, well, you have this closed amount of time that you do this at university or on your course of study, and then you enter into practice and, and that's the end of it. It isn't as embedded in our practice, I

Siobhan: 17:00

suppose. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a joint responsibility. I think workers have a responsibility to keep up to date, to think about theory. I think what you said there about some people convince themselves that they struggle with it. So, you know, we've got to have that kind of. Crisis of confidence. We've got to overcome that. We've got to get through that. and of course there's, especially for newly qualified workers, you are working with there's all the imposter syndrome stuff and how that connects and, so on. But, but it's not just the worker's responsibility. It is the employer's responsibility to keep theory on the professional agenda. You know, if I talk to managers or supervisors about theory, they look like a terrified rabbit caught in the headlights all over again. So, you know, it's the newly qualified workers that your. You know, talking to in this podcast, they're probably the ones that are the most confident with theory, actually, cuz they've probably reached the peak of confidence around it and then it'll just all disappear off again. You know, and if theory, wasn't something that you really enjoyed at university and most people wouldn't say, oh, it was great fun. I loved it. You know? then you you're quite willing to let go of it almost aren't you, if it's not it's doesn't have to be talked about while you'll avoid. So there's a, there's a joint responsibility to keep on the agenda. I think. Yeah. I think

Vicki: 18:22

sometimes it's equate probably a lot of the time theory is equated with academia And if you're a person or a social worker who doesn't see yourself as academic, or doesn't identify with that part of the role, then that becomes another barrier. whether it's there or whether it's a perceived one. And I wanted to ask about research and theory and. I suppose the connection and disconnection of the two, whether you think there is a difference in how research and theory are valued in social work or in the wider space around social work.

Siobhan: 19:00

Yeah, again, as, you know, sort of massive question, because you could draw it right back and think about, well, what's the connection between theory and research because, you know, some theory is based on research. Some research comes out of theory. so they're not the same and some people think they are the same. but clearly, you know, as you've identified, they're different. I suppose what I'd say is, I don't know, maybe sometimes research is easier to get a hold of because it's fact very often it's fact isn't it. And that, you know, there's a whole thing about, what's the difference between fact and theory theory is ideas. Research is fact in lots of ways. So sometimes it's easier to get hold of that. So maybe people feel more confident about it, but I think it's more. Actually the wider spaces outside of the profession that over maybe the last 10, 15 years, there's been a real push towards research, informed practice or evidence based practice or whatever you wanna call it. And in some ways that is really concerning to me because it almost, I think could be used by politicians, by, you know, we, we have to think about the connection really between social work and politics. And it is definitely there. And I think it could be used by politicians, by policymakers to say, look, here's the research. Therefore, this is what you've got to do. And it kind of directs us. And one of the things that I think. Incredibly joyous about theory is no one can tell you how to think. You know, theory is your choice. You can't say I don't like that bit of legislation. Don't like that doesn't really sit with me. So I'm not gonna bother using it. You can't do that. You know, you've got to follow legislation, you've got to follow policy and process and procedure, but nobody tells you how to think so you can. That bit of theory, really? It's not, you know, it, it, it, it's not how I see things. I'm not gonna use that theory. I'm gonna use this one instead and nobody can stop you doing that. And, and that's what that's, what's so liberating about. Once you get a hold of theory, and once you feel confident about it is incredibly liberating as a professional, and it can take you back to your core. Whereas everything else that surround you is, is direct. You know, and theory isn't theory is for you to play with and for you to explore and for you to use. and I think the problem with research is it's, it's being used in ways that tell us what to do. And yet we'll find in 10 years, times the research was wrong or inaccurate, or there's some problem with it. You know, I've been around social work for long enough to know. I left one, one job, for example, because I was being asked to describe, young people in ways that I absolutely did not want to describe people. And, and that was what the research was telling us that we should do. And yet now we know that was completely the wrong thing to do. And so research is. In some ways there's problems with it. I think because it's overly directive and it's, potentially overused and sometimes a very small piece of research with very insignificant sort of findings is, is used to direct whole ranges of work. And I don't like that idea of, I think, you know, the, what works idea, what works well, what works in one situation, won't work in another situation and that's, that's the issue. I think. I think evidence there's a role for evidence, but it has to sit alongside of theory and not replace theory.

Vicki: 22:32

Mm. And I suppose the best thing to do is use theory to critique it and to analyze it, to understand then who is valuing it, or who, who is it valued by? And the reasons for that,

Siobhan: 22:46

yeah, that's interesting. Isn't it? Absolutely. And another brilliant question that comes with the, who Vicki is, you know, who wrote it, who developed it? I think that's key in theory as well. you know, one of the things I have always asked is where does this come from? Who wrote this? and increasingly now we are seeing theory. Coming from people who have received services. We are seeing theory about anti-oppressive practice from people who have been part of oppressed and devalued groups. Previously, we didn't, we saw all of the theory base came from one area, white middle class, academic men were writing the theory, you know? And so we do need to critique that we need to decolonize all of that. and we're getting to a point where we're beginning to do that with theory. But research is still where's it coming from? Who's writing it. Mm who's who's funding it. Who's funding it. Yeah.

Vicki: 23:41

Mm. I guess again, that's moves on to my other question, really about the challenges in social workers using theory that is, it might be considered outdated, or it might be considered Eurocentric. It might be, have been developed by a white middle class person. Like you. And the complications, I think for social workers using theory in practice can sometimes be, oh, I see it a lot in attachment theory or maybe theory around development where it doesn't consider lots of different factors it doesn't consider how people are racialized, I should say. Or like I said, theory around development might not consider neuro divergence. And ideas that are new and have come after that. So do you find challenges currently for social workers in how they use theory? And at what point that theory was developed?

Siobhan: 24:39

Again, I just think it's fascinating topic and one, you know, I, I think there's so much we could do on this and one I've maybe not explored enough and could I could come back to in my own work. But, I agree that there's lots of issues around theory can become outdated. And some of that is because of the connection. You know, we go back to what we were just saying about research. Some of it is because it's been connected to research, which is now seen as outdated and, you know, Theory is really it's ideas about behavior, about relationships, about patterns, about, and, and society changes. People change, you know, situations change. I mean, you know, COVID 19 has changed everything, you know, beyond almost recognition, really in lots of ways. And so, yes, I think we've got to be very careful that theory can become outdated, but if we take that critical stance, All the time. That's why reflection and theory connects so closely. If we're reflecting on it, we take that critical stance. Then, that's gonna be helpful, you know, think about the key questions, like who wrote it, where does it come from? When was it written? But then the other thing that I'd say is on the other side of that coin is. That some of the theory that I think is incredibly helpful now is theory that's been around for years. You know, one of the theories that I've turned to in the last couple of years, a lot is crisis theory. Well, crisis theory was first written about by Kaplan in the 1960s. You know, so we're talking like really, you know, it's, it's, it's older than I am. it's been around a long time and yet. That theory around how a crisis initially impacts some people, how they might go into a situation of recoil before moving into recovery or adjustment. That's been fabulous for me to use, to think about myself in terms of how I've, responded to the COVID pandemic, how my practice has changed, how my delivery has changed. And I think it's been a really helpful theory when I've used it in training to explore changes, to practice with people. And yet it's probably one of the oldest theories that we've got, but it still stands strong. So I think the thing is that theories can go in and out of fashion. So just because something's been around for a long time, I don't think it should mean that we don't use it. Sometimes it means, you know, while this has had a really good foundation to it, but yes, we need to keep it up to date. We need to keep. Seated in contemporary practice. And I think particularly around that whole looking at decolonization and, you know, things like communication, you know, you look at things like Egan's solar model, which is, you know, was the big thing that everybody relied on. And yet now, you know, we know, well, we always knew it was very. You know, north American Eurocentric, but now we're also beginning to recognize I'm gone. I mean, it doesn't work now. It doesn't work for new ways of communicating. I can't sit squarely to you. Can I? And you know, I can't do all of that because we're now communicating in virtual means. So I think, I suppose what I'm trying to say is, so theory that's been around for a long time is still incredibly helpful and we can just adapt it and update it. Some theory is really outdated, but it's not just. When it was written, it was about what it was written for and who wrote it. So there's a lot more than just how long it's been around., but then also what I'd say is this is an incredibly exciting time in terms of social work theory, because there's new theory, developing there's new theory coming about because practices changed so much. You know, one of the things I wanted to do for example, is I've really wanted to. a new addition of, of theory and practice for a couple of years now, but I've thought, no, I really need to still just hang on. Just wanna hang on another six months because there's some really new, good stuff that's coming out as a result of change, ways of working. So, and I want it to be as contemporary and up to date as possible and to capture that. So it's, it's an incredibly exciting time for social work theory. I think. How do you keep

Vicki: 28:50

on top of it all in terms of knowing what's coming out or what's happening or who is developing or thinking of a new theory?

Siobhan: 29:01

Okay. So you, you, we, you talked earlier about how you can use your social work skills in any area. Now, if I said to you, how do you keep on top of your workload? How do you know every child's circumstance? How do you know, you know, all of that stuff, because that's your role and your seat in it. My role now, If you like, my reason for being is about enabling people to think about and make connections with theory, rate, reflection, and practice. So I'm, I'm there all the time. That's what I'm looking at all the time. I'm following the threads of it. you know, trying to make sure that I look out for who's writing what who's developing, what, And what's working. And, so it's no, it's no big thing really. It's just that this is my job. This is now my full-time job. So whereas your full-time job, you know, all of that stuff inside out, I'm no longer carrying that kind of workload where I'm thinking about individuals or, you know, I've got, think about a couple of students that I'm working with. I've gotta think about training delivery. But then largely it's all about keeping connected with theory. Isn't it watching out for it being aware of it? Yeah.

Vicki: 30:12

So I think tapped into that.

Siobhan: 30:15

Yeah. And I think also when I first started, I was writing about, this is what people say about theory. Whereas now I feel like maybe because I'm incredibly privileged that a lot of people do know my name and do look to my work. And now I feel like, okay, maybe. I can be influencing some of that and I can be talking about some of that and debating some of that. And since the pandemic I've been doing the webinars that I do on a Wednesday night, which are, you know, we we've done, I think 90 sessions, then our next one, we taking a break for the summer at the moment. Our next one will be number 90. So think about that in terms of the people who we've had come in and talking and the debates and the people who attend. You know, throwing in ideas and that's how you keep on top. Isn't it? You keep connected. And I learn a lot from students and from new workers, so, yeah.

Vicki: 31:07

So if you could go back to when you were a new social worker, what is the advice that you would give yourself?

Siobhan: 31:17

Do you know, this was, I thought you are just a most amazing question. I was lying in bed thinking about it last night, couldn't get to sleep. Cause I was going round in my head. I was thinking so many pieces of advice that I'd give myself. and I said, well, how are you gonna just do this in a couple of minutes in a podcast? But I suppose there's a few things. One is keep hold of your values and recognize how. your professional life does influence your personal life. All of that stuff, you know, it, it is who I am. And, and if people ask me now what I do and I'm a social worker and that's just, that's what I say. So keep, keep hold of that. Keep hold of your values in everything that you do. So, and I think social work values. where we we've just been talking about, what's gone out of date, what needs updating social work values actually are just core, really. And if you've got those values and principles, they don't need updating, you know, they will help you to keep all the stuff updated almost. So keep hold of those. Keep those core, hold onto hope. I think it's the most important thing. And for the listeners that you have in America, they will know about the importance of hope. It's talked about a lot in America. You know, social work is described in America as the profession of hope. We don't have enough of that in, in the UK. It's been pushed out of us by, government who tell us we've been too hopeful in the past and that's led to mistakes. So I think hold on to hope. It's so important. And then the, the other thing that I think I'd say. And I don't, I don't mean this in a way where I've neglected my family because I haven't, you know, I have a fab relationship with my two daughters, but I think what I'd say is, spend more time with your kids when they're young, now my, my children are grown up now and we have a fabulous relationship, but there's definitely sports days that I missed. There's definitely assemblies that I missed that I wish I hadn't because your children grow up really quickly. And new workers. Now I do say to them, make sure that you get that balance. Right. And, and it is hard. It's hard in social work to get that balance. And you can feel like you're spending all day helping looking after other people's children or other people's families, and then you're neglecting your own to some extent. So I think that's what I'd say. I'd say, Don't feel bad about prioritizing your own family and yourself sometimes that that can, that can be helpful, you know? cuz you that you can't pull from an empty crop stuff and it's true, you know, so, but in saying that I don't want people to think that, you know, I've got this turbulent neglected family or anything cause I'm not, well, I just think, I think that's the piece of advice that I would give myself. Cause I think I've always. I think, There's always an element of guilt. And there's an element of you can't do everything. So don't feel guilty do what's needed at that time. And don't, don't feel guilty, I suppose. So I'd.

Vicki: 34:11

I think that's really good advice, cuz I think that's the thing when you're a new social worker in the moment that you really need to hear things like that and holding onto hope and spending time with your family. It, it probably is something that a lot of people can connect with because maybe they're not hearing it enough or maybe they're not telling themselves enough. So I think that's perfect. Perfect advice for me too. So yeah. Thank you so much for, for coming on and talking to me, I really appreciate it. And I know that everyone listening will take a lot away from it, particularly for me just thinking. Theory. Cause I guess for myself in practice, when I was first in practice, it wasn't in my every day and all I was doing and remembering, and coming back to the fact that it's just a way of thinking helps ground it a little bit from something that. We might see as overly academic or inaccessible to actually coming back to which it's how, and I really like that thought of no one can tell you how to think and for social workers who wanna fight for social justice and stay trued to those values that you talked about. I think it's really reassuring to know. No one can tell you how to think.

Siobhan: 35:27

Mm, it is. And it's the most liberating aspect and it, and that's what worries me. If we let go of it, we let go of it. We just become robotic. And, you know, we're just processing things really. and if we keep hold of it, it's very freeing. You know, maybe that's the connection. Maybe that's the connection with the whole thing, because there's that phrase, fear can hold you prisoner hope can set you free. And I think, you know, actually theory. It does. If, if you're frightened of it, that's a real problem because it can absolutely set you free in terms of you thinking now don't get me wrong. I haven't felt this, you know, confident about theory all of my life. And there are times I think the way you described it there, Vicki of, you know, you've come back to it. And there's there's times where I've not felt that. My practice is as underpinned by theory is at other times of my career. And maybe it's just about you when you need to think more or when you need to put more thought into it, the theory base needs to be there for you. It's but it's that bit about it's set you free. It really sets you free to be the kind of practitioner that you want to be rather than an employee of an organization. Theory does do that. And I just. I suppose in some ways, I just wish that it was when we teach it that it was more fun that it was more enjoyable, it was more accessible. And that we carried on with ongoing training or theory throughout our whole careers really. Cause it is great. I love theory, love social work theory. And there's not many people that kind of feel that, but I love it. I love talking about it. I think it's really exciting. But maybe that's what you need to be as a trainee. You need to be excited by what you're talking about. Don't you?

Vicki: 37:11

Yeah, definitely. And take it forward. Oh, well, thank you so much again for coming on. Very well, it's been

Siobhan: 37:19

lovely to talk. Nice. Nice to meet you. See, I think it shines through in the podcast that you're doing as well, actually, your social work skills, because the question that the questions that you've posed are really thoughtful, you know, and the good social workers should be able to ask good questions, the skill, the social work skill, and the supervision skill particularly is in asking questions, not giving answers. Isn't it. And I think the questions you've framed have been. You know, they've made me think and that's really helpful. So thank you. Oh, thank you.

37:49

Thank you so much for listening. I really hope you took something from that conversation that you can use in your learning on, in your practice. And if you did find it helpful, then please get in touch. Whether that's an email. Through the website. Or a DM. I love hearing your feedback from the podcast and knowing that he's helped you or how it's helped you. So please do get in touch. I actually got so carried away talking to Siobhan. After I stopped recording, I usually ask my guests where people can find them or their work but I've put all the information in the show notes for that. And for those of you who have not access to social work, student connect webinars. The link for those is below as well, is there an amazing resource for students for new social workers, and experienced, social workers. The ones that I've been able to attend in the last year have been really, really useful. So, if you haven't listened to one of my podcasts before. At the end of every episode, I invite you to just take a deep breath and slow down. And someone messaged me. Earlier in the week to say that they listened to the podcast when they're driving. So they can't do the closing, the rise and take deep breath. And I never thought about saying that right in a disclaimer before. So. If you're driving, then don't close your eyes. Obviously. So if you're not driving, if you're still stationary with I would invite you to close your eyes. If you feel comfortable or just pick somewhere to focus on. Um, for a moment. Take a deep breath. Slow down. Enjoy the pause. And know that you can come back to it. Even if it's just for a few seconds. Thank you so much for listening and take care.