Motivational Interviewing in Social Work with Charlie Whittaker - Frontline

In this episode I talk to Charlie Whittaker - Curriculum lead for Motivational Interviewing with Frontline.

Charlie shares her PHD findings and we talk about:
Good authority in motivational interviewing
Using motivational interviewing within child protection
The challenges of motivational interviewing
Using motivational interviewing where there are issues of domestic abuse

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vicki@socialworksorted.com

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Resources mentioned:

https://uk.jkp.com/products/motivational-interviewing-for-working-with-children-and-families

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpyr_AcKlqo

https://www.amazon.com/Applications-of-Motivational-Interviewing-15-book-series/dp/B08M3VZT2K

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to social work sorted the podcast. My name is Vicki Shevlin. I host this podcast and I lead social work sorted. Training and consultancy. I set up social work sorted as an online resource for newly qualified social workers. I'm an independent social worker. 

With a background in child protection. Most recently as a child protection conference chair. 

And through social work sorted, I provide CPD accredited training. For students and new social workers. Online masterclasses. 

An introduction to assessment course. And a monthly membership, the collective, all the information about those over in the show notes. And if you want to get in touch with me, About training for your university or organization, you can contact me vicki@socialworksorted.com. Again, all the information is in the show notes. 

If this is your first time to the podcast and welcome, it's lovely to have you here. And if you are back listening from another [00:01:00] episode, Thank you so much for your ongoing support. If this episode or any of the others are helpful, then it is so helpful to me. If you leave a rating and, or a review, it makes such a difference and it only takes a couple of seconds. 

I'm so happy I can share this episode with you today. I am talking to Charlie Whitaker. Who is the curriculum lead for motivational interviewing frontline. And who I met at the BASW conference. We just happened to be sat on the same table together. Got chatting. And as we talk about it in the podcast, I then found out Charlie was presenting. 

Went to her talk and yeah, I spoke to her afterwards and asked her about coming on the podcast because motivational interviewing, um, we referred to it a couple of times in the episode as MI just to see the abbreviation for it. Is something that I am asked about a lot. I think it is often oversimplified in practice. And what I love about this conversation [00:02:00] and about. 

You kind of hearing from Charlie? Is that at no point? Does she over-simplify this? We talk about the complexities. Of using motivational interviewing. And we talk about the intricacies of this. She shares loads of recommendations and resources of which I'll put them all in the show notes. If you want it to go and look them up, including a book that she has co-authored as well. 

And I think it's a really helpful introduction to motivational interview. And if it's something that you are interested in, something that you maybe aren't currently offered within your organization or your local authority, but you want to know more about. And yeah, hope you really enjoy listening. It was such a good conversation. I had so much. 

To think about and reflect on afterwards. . That's my measure of a good conversation, which usually I'm, I'm biased. I think they all are on this podcast. 

So enjoy and do, let me know if anything in particular. Resonates with you. Are there any reflections that you have, and [00:03:00] you can also, because it's that time of year again. Absolutely use this podcast as part of your continuing professional development. It's ideal, actually to think about theory in practice, to look at ideas around. To look at approaches that are embedded in research. Charlie talks about her research as well, 

so you can use that. 

If this episode helps you, then please share it with somebody else who might also find it useful for their study or their practice. Here is the conversation

Vicki: So Charlie, thank you for coming on the podcast today. So maybe if we start with you introducing yourself, 'cause you'll do it better than I will.

And then I'll ask you to describe social work in three 

Charlie: words. Sure. So I am Charlie Whitaker. I'm a child and family social worker. And my current role is working on the frontline program on one of the curriculum leads. And I shape their curriculum around motivational interviewing. 

Vicki: And I [00:04:00] should also add that we met at the BASW conference as well, which is like a, I'd never been to a conference before.

And I was like, I didn't really know what to expect, to be honest, but then , chatted to you and then you're like, oh, I'm doing a presentation in the next room. And it's a nice way to kind 

Charlie: of connect with people. It's such a lovely way. I hadn't been to a conference in years and I forgot how much I enjoyed them for that reason.

Vicki: Even just being sat in we were on a little table and having little reflective chats about stuff. You do forget what it's like when you move into a different area of practice. So yeah, that was lovely. So 

Charlie: social work in three words? Yeah, I would say full of contradictions. I like that. Yeah, definitely.

I asked 

Vicki: them some student social workers in another podcast that's gone out and they use individual ones, but I love that it is completely full. Of contradictions. So many a podcast is helpful 'cause you just get to talk them out. So for people who are listening, [00:05:00] could you give a bit of an overview then of your career journey?

I guess so from qualification, starting in social work up to where you are now. 

Charlie: Yeah, of course. So I started off my career in social care, working in residential care with children and young people, and that was what inspired me to train to be a social worker. So I did my training as a child and family social worker in what back then was like a through employment route.

So you were kind of part working in the local authority part, training at the same time. And I came across motivational interviewing, I think not long after I was qualified and just took a shine to it. Really quickly. I was really interested in it, started trying it out in my practice. And then a couple of years later A job opportunity came up, which was a research assistant position and working on, as part of a research team that were starting a randomized [00:06:00] controlled trial, which was gonna be looking at the use of MI and child and family social work, and they'd partnered up with a local authority.

So I'd only ever intended to do that for a year. It was a short term contract, and then years later, I'm still there. I. And I loved mi. I got to work quite closely with social workers and local authorities. I did a lot of coaching of social workers who were trying to use MI in practice, and I think I just, I found with research I could kind of make a difference to children and families, but in a very different way.

I was definitely torn between practice and research for a long time, but stayed in that route and then eventually I kind of took all that knowledge, from working. And with social workers to take up the role that I have now, which is in social work education and being able to shape the curriculum in particular around motivational interviewing and kind of parallel to that, I've been doing a PhD for the past, [00:07:00] oh, five, six years now.

It's coming to an end, but it's just meant that I've been able to bring all of those different strands together. You think I'd be bored of it by now, but I'm still here, still doing it. And yeah, still really enjoying it. I'm very, I think these days I'm more and more interested in the idea of social workers using kind of practice models that have originated in therapeutic settings in social work I'm really interested in mi, but just more generally kind of what that means to take something and use it in our context.

I love that. I love 

Vicki: that because so many people listening, I think they, there can be this narrative that the only thing you can do in social work is child protection. And like that's kind of the only thing that I did. But that's not the only way. And so it's really nice to reframe it in terms of, I.

Research is still social work, just like impact can happen in so many different ways. And I think that definitely probably people 

Charlie: who are 

Vicki: listening, even if they're [00:08:00] not new, might be thinking, oh this isn't right for me, or, I'm interested in another thing. Like there's, it's just there's so many options, isn't there with social 

Charlie: work completely.

And I think what was lovely about research is that you still get to work with families. You still get to, to talk and hear families', voices, and they have an impact as well, but just in a different way. So yeah, there's so many different options and I like the, 

Vicki: like I, I guess I share that interest in terms of like the therapeutic influences or underpinning social work because whenever I've done train, I think I'd, I only did, I think I did a two day MI trip, so motivational interview and we'll probably call it mi through this, that's like the abbreviations for it.

But I think I only did a two day in one of the local authorities that I worked in. But anytime when I have training where there is like a therapeutic basis to it or foundation to it, and then I implement that, it always has the most impact in terms of the or. It did always have the most impact in terms of building [00:09:00] relationships with 

Charlie: families, which is always the core of whatever we do, isn't it?

I think that was my experience as well, and the reason I liked it so much was when I tried it out in my practice, it had such an immediate impact and was so different from the response that I've been getting beforehand. Yeah, I think I've probably fallen into the trap of kind of telling people what to do, which I think is really common as a newly qualified social worker.

But it was, like you said, having that training and being much more relationship based, like the difference was so immediate. 

Vicki: Yeah. And that's I think why people come to this podcast as well. 'cause it's all about kind of tangible things that you can listen to it. Yeah. Or you can learn something and you can use it the next day and you will see that it's made an impact, I suppose.

With your PhD, because obviously that's why you were at the BSBA conference to share some of your findings. So for people who weren't there who didn't see it, could you talk a bit about your main findings to begin with? 

Charlie: Yeah, of course. So [00:10:00] my PhD was looking at. Relationship, motivational interviewing skills and parents' motivation for change in the context of social work conversations.

And in terms of kind of social worker skills, I. MI skills if you like. So things like empathy and collaboration. I was also looking at some skills which had been developed as part of another project with somebody called Professor Donald Forrester, who's done a lot of work around mi and what we'd attempted to do in that study was describe what authority might look like.

MI framework and I looked at how those skills were related to things like parents change talk. So that's a term we use a lot in mi and it's basically anything a parent says that signals their intrinsic motivation for change, problem recognition, and also something [00:11:00] called self exploration, which is how how open and vulnerable and involved in the conversation parents were.

What I found was that MI relational skills were related to self exploration. But good authority. So they were skills around clarity, about concerns purposefulness, and something called child focus were related to all of those different indicators of parents' motivation. So they were related to more change talk, greater problem recognition, and greater self exploration.

So I guess the reason that felt so significant was. Often when I've worked with social workers, there's, there tends to be a sense that people love mi and they like it, but when it comes to working with risk, the sense I've often got is people feel that they need to abandon MI and kind of put on a more authoritarian hat.

And I think what this showed was [00:12:00] not only can you use authority in, within the kind of broader philosophy of mi. When you do, it was actually in our context, more effective than just using those relational skills on their own. So I think it offered a lot of reassurance for people that are feeling a bit worried about whether you can use MI and social work, and also a bit of a description of what that might look like as Wow.

Vicki: So go back then. So the, what are those, the. What did you say the factors are that make up that good authority. So 

Charlie: it's purposefulness. So first off, that's being clear about why you are there with families. So being comfortable in setting an agenda, if there's something you need to talk about, being fine to say what that is, but also inviting parents into that as well is if there's anything they need to talk about that's a priority for, then there's clarity about concerns, [00:13:00] which is really kind of raising those difficult topics. And I guess the kind of MI version of that was being really clear about what they are, but inviting parents into a dialogue about it. So being curious about what they think, showing understanding of their perspective, even if you don't agree necessarily, and just creating space for them to share their thoughts and feelings around it.

And then the final thing was child focus, which is really about trying to bring the child into the conversation. And helping the parent think about their family, I guess as a motivation for change. 

Vicki: And I kind of wanted to go back over them 'cause I was, when someone says like authority, you think of like authoritative, you think I shouldn't say you say, I think of kind of that power, I think of.

Professions with authority and control over people. So I think it's really helpful for people listening to break down when you are, you know [00:14:00] exactly what you mean when you talk about. Good authority in that 

Charlie: context. Absolutely. So this wasn't telling people what to do, and I wanna be so clear about that.

It's not about authoritarian practice, it's about good authority. So it's been really clear about why you are there, but that's very different than it being a one-sided conversation. It's very much about trying to elicit as much as possible from that person what they think and feel about those particular concerns.

Vicki: So would this be kind of, rather than saying, we have concerns about domestic abuse saying, I'm really worried that one parent is hurting another parent in front of the child. I. I think 

Charlie: it's, I think it's okay to say what the concerns are and to say that you are worried about domestic abuse or the possible impact of that on children.

I guess what would be different from an MI perspective is you might be inviting that parent to say, what are your thoughts about this and [00:15:00] feelings, and you'd be actively trying to kind of reflect that and also, of mi. To whether there's anything a person says that shows that maybe they're also thinking about the benefits of change too.

And if they were within that conversation, you'd be kind of delving in and exploring that in more detail. It might be that. You often hear mixed feelings, don't you, around. I'm trying to think around something like domestic abuse, the sorts of things you might hear someone say. Does anything spring to mind for you?

No, I was just 

Vicki: trying to think about that in terms of like possible change talk. I've experienced it as a conference chair. Parents would it could be as blatant as people saying, I know it's not good, or, I know this isn't, I know this shouldn't be happening. Or, I know, or maybe it might be a parent saying yeah, I know they've seen shouting, because it's, it feels too much to maybe [00:16:00] tell others as professionals exactly what's happening, but it's almost opening up the idea that perhaps a child has seen or heard something, but they might wanna tell us about.

The kind of smallest version of that, I 

Charlie: guess. Yeah. And I guess it might be opening up in that context, conversations around what they've noticed in their child when they hear shouting or whether their child has said, and I think to them, but it's sometimes it's broader conversations around what kind of parent do they want to be.

If we were to ask their child for. How they would describe their mom or their dad, what would they want them to say? And just broader questions about what do they know about the impact of domestic violence on children? What are their thoughts about it? Do they have any worries about it? I think it's just opening up those sorts of conversations.

So you are talking about the risk, but without blaming and shaming, yeah. They're 

Vicki: really good examples that you've just [00:17:00] listed there because it's so easy to. Head into another direction of questioning or conversations or I think this, or this is my view. Whereas they're all so open and like you said, they don't invite any criticism and I suppose they're intended.

'cause sometimes parents, I in the table, sometimes parents, I felt parents are almost ready to answer in a defensive way. Like anyone, like I would be ready to answer something in a defensive way. As a parent, I would be ready to give the answer that I thought somebody wanted to hear, whereas those questions would invite me to.

Think they're not questions you can answer straight away, are they? 

Charlie: Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's part of it with MI is just inviting people to think. You don't always have to have the answers and people might not even give you the answers that you would like, but even if you're starting somebody thinking about [00:18:00] something, then that I think is helpful in itself.

Vicki: It's for action, just like thinking out loud, but even the word. I think because the fact that it's called interviewing, when we think of a standard interview, yeah. We think of one person asking a question and the other person answering in that real kind of linear way. But it's not that is it? So it almost is, I'm not saying it's got the wrong name here, it we should rename motivational interviewing, but I'm just so interested in language and words and all the connotations of that and.

It isn't really an interview in a traditional 

Charlie: sense, is it? I think that's a really good point. And Don, I mentioned Donald Forrester earlier. He's written a, about this as one, he uses the term a lot, purposeful dialogue, which I think is a, it captures what you are saying, which is much more of about a two way conversation rather than this kind of like question, answer, question, answer thing.

Vicki: And, but I suppose, and the reason why it's [00:19:00] called. Motivational interviewing that then focusing on the word motivation, it's because you are then looking for what is gonna motivate, move somebody forward, isn't it? 

Charlie: Yeah. I guess the important difference is that you are not providing the motivation, so I think sometimes, The difficulty is as helpers is when we see somebody who clearly needs to make a change in their life and there's obvious consequences of them not doing it.

It's really hard to watch, whether that's like on a personal level, even if you have a friend or a family member, doesn't even have to be professional. It's really hard when you see someone in distress and they're not making a change and you really want them to do it. Sometimes I think what we do, and I'm completely guilty of having done this, is try and convince them that it's a good idea and it comes from a good place.

And you might try and offer advice and be like, it'll be all right if you do this or, look at [00:20:00] what's happening if you don't. But what motivational interviewing does is to make sure that we take a step back as helpers and instead of us offering the motivation, we want to draw it out.

So we're looking for that person's own reasons for change instead. Yeah, that 

Vicki: re 'cause I often look back at my practice and that being really honest, I know that there've been times when I've been coercive as a social worker, probably because that was. What was modeled to me, probably because I had external pressure to, I knew if this didn't happen for this family, I was gonna get told to go to P L O.

I was gonna get told to go to court. So that was my motivation behind it. But I know that resulted in. Coercion and then being very honest. That happens a lot in children's services to, 

Charlie: I completely resonate with that. I definitely, you feel such a huge sense of responsibility and desperation. Sometimes you know what the [00:21:00] consequences might be if a family you are working with don't change and.

You end up either telling people what to do or really trying to convince 'em that it's a good idea and I dunno about you, but I used to have that feeling often that people would changing but because, not because they really wanted to, but because I was telling them to. And it was, yeah, I , how can I get you off my back?

And it didn't feel good for me as a social worker 'cause I didn't feel like I was really helping a family. Yeah it probably didn't feel good for the people that I was working with either. 

Vicki: Yeah. And then, and quite often it then doesn't really result in genuine change. No. 'cause you lose your trust.

It becomes a I'm doing this 'cause she said too and I'm really scared as a family member, I'm really fearful of what's gonna happen. And when that's the basis for change it's not gonna be, Long 

Charlie: lasting is it? Exactly. But I think I'm with you in that when I qualified as a social worker, I guess [00:22:00] that's what I saw.

 There was no such thing when I trained as like practice models. That just wasn't really something on social work education programs. And so what you do is what in your local authority and so much of that was. To families with referrals, putting plans in place, monitoring, but it felt like we didn't really have a way of like, how do you talk to people about change?

How do you support them without just putting a plan in place and hoping for the best? Yeah. And I, 

Vicki: as a conference chair, I used to see that in terms of the, I'd be, I'd see all these processes happening and that we'd have a plan. And so there's home visits, but then it's what happens inside those?

It's not just that you've been to somebody's home and you've done your visit Exactly. Blocks to your bedroom and this is me massively minimizing. It wasn't, there was, there's good practice everywhere when we look for it, but it just, it, and that's the way of social work. It, there's processes around everything.

So I think motivational interviewing is really helpful. 'cause it [00:23:00] is, yeah, when I'm inside that house then what do I do? And instead of social workers just saying, 

Charlie: I just had a chat. 

Vicki: Exactly. You can have more than that is like that dialogue I suppose, isn't 

it? 

Charlie: That's exactly it. And I, that feeling of being, I remember being newly qualified going into homes and honestly thinking, I dunno what I'm meant to do.

I've this training and I've loved social worker. When it comes to going out and talking to a family about, substance misuse or whatever it might be, I don't know what to do or what to say. And that's a horrible feeling when you're a social worker. And I guess what MI and other practice models as well, I guess it doesn't matter which one offer is that kind of framework, talking to people when you are inside somebody's home and having a conversation.

Yeah. 

Vicki: And I remember my first manager actually always used to say , what's the purpose of you do? So like she was like, you're not just going on a home visit to check in and to say hi. That's not what you do because you know [00:24:00] you are intervening in somebody's life. What is your purpose? And I guess that links back into one of those factors of good authority, isn't it?

Like exactly that of knowing and clarity. 

Charlie: Yeah, exactly That. Why are you there? And I think sometimes social workers feel really uncomfortable, particularly newly qualified social workers with that authority, that kind of setting the agenda and being really purposeful because it feels more comfortable to pop in for a chat.

It feels way more comfortable to do that than to be really explicit about a concern. But the thing I.

The findings of this research, like families in other research time and time again. So the thing they want from their social worker is transparency. They want to know why you are there. They want to know what, what needs to change, as well as you being empathetic and collaborative. You don't need to be afraid of using that authority.

[00:25:00] Yeah, 

Vicki: definitely. We've got, I've got some questions that we can go through or some scenarios that people like contacted me about and I said I was doing an interview about motivational interviewing. Yeah. Which would be helpful for us to talk through. What I'll say is, I know we both reiterate. You can't just listen to a podcast like this and think, oh great, now I'm doing motivational interviewing.

It is a, in an extensive training, it takes so much practice. You have to be support, you have to be supervised. So this is re, we are talking about it and we're giving some examples in you as a kind of an expert in your PhD are given examples, but it's not a replacement for any kind of, Training 

Charlie: a hundred percent.

Yeah. Even with training, you still don't really learn mi. It's when you go out into practice. And you commit to getting better and, yeah. 

Vicki: Okay, so the first I suppose scenario example was sent in about working with other professionals. So if you are chairing a multi-agency group, and I wondered if you could talk a [00:26:00] bit or if other new social workers have experienced this where they have done their training and motivational interviewing.

But perhaps other people or the agencies haven't and some of the complications that, that might bring up some of the conflict for that social worker. 

Charlie: Yeah, I'd say that's not just common with newly qualified social workers. I say really experienced social workers say this as well. So what the feedback I often get is exactly.

Approach and empathetic approach with parents and the feedback I get is that often there's a lot of anxiety within the professional network and a lot of kind a sense of other professionals wanting you to tell the family what to do and to be more directive and a real sense of discomfort when as a [00:27:00] social worker you are taking a much more relationship based approach.

I'd say that's a really common experience. Sometimes people have asked me what do we do about that? Should we address it in the meeting? Should we address it elsewhere? I dunno what you think. It'd be good to know. I don't think addressing it in a meeting, particularly a parent or care or family members are there is necessarily the best place to do it.

I think it might be worth. A separate conversation with some of the other professionals you're working with to say, look, the approach that I use or we use in our local authority is motivational interviewing. It might sound a bit different from the practice that you are used to. One of the key ideas in MI is that you don't tell people what to do and you avoid being directive.

'cause the research shows that it's less likely to. I'd provide you with some more information. I can signpost you to some resources in case you're interested. But yeah, let know if you've got [00:28:00] any questions. I dunno, what do you think, how would you manage that? I can give a few 

Vicki: examples. Probably on days where I've been a little bit overwhelmed I'm probably being a bit blunt, but I think for me, I've experienced that before where I've had other peoples put other kind of professionals, inverted commas in the group, saying things probably as well, not in front of family, of Why aren't you going to court?

Why aren't you going to legal proceedings? These children shouldn't be there. Or really common. And for me it's about stepping, the power of being a social worker is being able to zoom out and have that perspective of, Care is not this happy ending. Yeah. That a lot of professionals think, just you could take a child out of everything that they know and have lived through their whole life and that can be just as harmful as them staying in an abusive situation, which can be really hard thing to reckon with.

So I suppose for me, sometimes it's being as blunt as saying, That is, whatever you see that [00:29:00] version as is not what you see it as. And although what you think I'm doing here is too soft or too sensitive, or you think I'm not being clear on these concerns, do you understand that this is the alternative?

Do you understand the harm that alternative can cause and. Saying that in as nice as way as possible, but sometimes you have to be blunt with people of like this, that isn't an answer. That's not a fix. Yeah. That 

Charlie: opens up another whole 

Vicki: area of potential harm for a child and a family. And it's not a long term thing that's, I suppose, working in child protection.

That was. One of the most common things I would find of people just saying, they shouldn't be there, or, you 

Charlie: know, you should do 

Vicki: this and we are not saying it. 'cause you are the social worker and you're responsible. And that's really hard to take on because often,

I've had comments if there's gonna be a serious case review about this, if we're not careful and, it's, it is gonna be on social care because I've done everything that I can do. Or I've written this complaint Social workers are really up against it and [00:30:00] I've been up against it as well. 

Charlie: Yeah, I like what you said about offering a different perspective.

I think sometimes just kind of getting people to think, like you said about the alternative and what that might mean as well, is really helpful. There's so much anxiety, isn't there? And I think sometimes we are under the illusion. If we just tell people what to do or if we're really heavy handed, that's gonna lead to change.

I think it leads to us maybe feeling better in the short term, but doesn't necessarily lead to change. 

Vicki: Yeah, and I think the, there's a perception of kind of time as well and that's built into the timescales that we have as social workers. But, you could go through a. Six to 12 month set of care proceedings and have an outcome that isn't that much different.

Being honest about in, in terms of my experience. But people think that, to build those relationships over time could take six to 12 [00:31:00] months. But we're not gonna do that because it's because there's so much risk. And there's loads of stuff around it, but. I think it's important to think about how we perceive time and timescales and the result, if you like, at the end of that because again, that's a helpful step back of perspective to have when you look at therapeutic interventions.

Charlie: Definitely, and that's the reality isn't it, of using therapeutic interventions in social work is that we don't have the luxury of time and sometimes we have to make decisions. In timescales that work for children and not for parents. And that's constant kind of source of discomfort, isn't it, when Yeah.

You just think if I just had a bit more time. Yeah, 

Vicki: definitely. And so what another, I guess I got quite a few examples through a few kind of scenarios and questions, but I wondered how, if you could talk a bit about how motivational interviewing could 

Charlie: be used 

Vicki: in. [00:32:00] Situations where there is domestic abuse, if you think it can if or if there's some areas where it couldn't be.

Charlie: Yeah, I think it comes up a lot, I guess because it's so common for social workers to be working with families where there's domestic abuse. I think it can used, I think social workers need to think ethically. Who they're having conversations with and what the implications of that are. So for example, I think you can use MI effectively both with survivors of domestic abuse and also perpetrators. However, I think with survivors of domestic abuse, you need to be very careful that we not putting the responsibility for change on the person who is not the cause of the problem.

If you like, Yeah, I always think back to one particular. Example I heard of mi, which just sat really uncomfortably where [00:33:00] a social worker kind of completely grasped the principle of MI and was having a conversation with a parent, but it was around how they could avoid kind of triggering incidents of domestic abuse.

And so whilst they understood the principle of mi, the sense I got was that parent would be left with a sense of responsibility, that it was something that they needed to do to prevent that abuse. Where actually that, that just isn't the case. Saying that there are times where I've heard MI use really well in with survivors of domestic violence, and I would say if anyone's interested in that, there's some fantastic example.

She's also a social worker and mi.

It's one thing, say kind of with your position as a social worker being like, you need to leave a relationship, [00:34:00] which wouldn't sit well ethically versus if a parent had come to you saying that they're thinking about it for themselves, then it might be really helpful to use MI to explore that ambivalence with them.

Yeah. However, I'd say generally speaking, I it seems. I guess to be using mi with perpetrators of domestic violence to change their behavior. The evidence as far as I'm aware, is a bit limited. So there are several studies, but there are not a huge amount and it seems to be kind of relatively effective.

But for me, I think that's where it can be really helpful. And I've heard some absolutely brilliant examples of MI being used with perpetrators of domestic violence. So kind of a bit like we were talking about earlier, kind of exploring kind of who they want to be as a parent, their feelings about the impact of [00:35:00] their behavior on their children.

So really tapping into kind of what it means for them as a parent and that identity, 

Vicki: that's really helpful and I think it's helpful because there can be a tendency when you have an amazing model or a framework to think, great, I'm gonna go all in. But you can't do that with every single situation.

It's not a tick box. It's not a one size fits all. And so I'm really glad you said that in terms of working with, It's mainly women experiencing domestic abuse. Yeah. With survivors of domestic abuse because it, we can so quickly veer into that victim blaming mentality, and that's how the whole.

Social care system, every system is set up, isn't it? So it's so important to be mindful of that when, 'cause I think when you learn something new as a social worker, you wanna then go and put it into practice. But like you said, it's, we have to think about our ethics around that, don't we?

Charlie: Definitely. And I'd say in that case, if you are thinking of having an MI conversational drawing on MI with a survivor of domestic. [00:36:00] Abuse, you'd always, the question you'd be wanting to ask yourself is, why am I not having this conversation with a perpetrator? Yeah. And there might be a good reason for that, genuinely, but it's an important question to ask yourself.

'cause if you can, I guess you should. 

Vicki: No, that's really helpful. And then I guess the last one, or the last sort of area that people are asking about is working with young people. So some people say teenagers, some people say young people, young adults. If you are doing a piece of direct work or if you are like an allocated social worker, are there any situations where you have seen motivational 

Charlie: interviewing be helpful?

Yeah, there's lots of situations. Again, it's one where I think you need to be a little bit cautious. So I've heard mi being used really well in relation to young people's school attendance, cannabis use, or substance misuse Generally, I think [00:37:00] where it's perhaps a bit messier is when you look, try to have conversations, conversation.

Again, a bit kind of echoing some of the conversation we just had around survivors of domestic violence, but I guess the assumption in an MI conversation is that if you can draw out somebody's intrinsic motivation to change, then you know, I guess what it's saying is part of the barrier to change is that person not being motivat.

In cases where there's perhaps criminal or sexual exploitation, it doesn't really matter how motivated a young person is or not, if the things that are preventing them from being able to change or get out of that situation are completely external to them. So it's just what, again, when you're having an MI conversation, thinking.

Is the motivation in itself gonna make a difference? And sometimes the answer might be yes, or are there things that are [00:38:00] getting in the way that I might need to address as priority? But saying, I. The benefit of MI with young people is that A, in mi, we make a huge effort to really try and understand somebody's perspective.

And I think when you're young, when you're a teenager, often you just feel completely misunderstood or like nobody actually gets what you're saying at all. And also, You so desperately want that sense of independence and mi, wherever possible, tries to promote that sense of autonomy and choice. So I think in that sense, those elements of MI are brilliant in work with young people.

It's just being really careful about thinking, is this young person really responsible for change? And even if they are motivated, are there other things that might be getting in the way for them as well? 

Vicki: Yeah, that's really important, isn't it? And I just like the way that you framed all that because basically repeat myself again.

But I just think everything exists in context, doesn't it? And we can't just fix [00:39:00] with one, one question. One question can be really helpful or a few questions together, but it's not the whole. 

Charlie: I suppose exactly that. And when you're thinking about mi, I guess one of the critiques of MI is it's quite individual and it doesn't always account for the broader context.

And I guess that's your skill as a social worker is always when you're thinking about an intervention or a way of working, is the broader context as well. And is there something else that's gonna be more helpful or not amazing? 

Vicki: So if anyone is listening and they're interested, 

Are there any other, recommended reading or anything you'd think people should look to?

Charlie: So there's excellent resources on YouTube. Some video examples of what a conversation might sound like with the survivor of domestic abuse. I'd really recommend those. 

I can happily plug my own book. So I co-authored a book with Donald Forrester and David Wilkins at Cardiff University, and we've really tried hard to think about giving examples of how MI might [00:40:00] be used in social work conversation specifically. And in terms of that question around mi with children, young people, there's quite a helpful chapter that unpick some of those ethical dilemmas in a bit more detail that people might find interesting.

In terms of, I'm just trying to think what other resources might be helpful. There are various there's a few books now on mi and social work as well, so I think Melinda Hoffman has written one. There aren't that many examples on YouTube, unfortunately, because I know the thing that people want and because I used to want it as well, was an example.

Like, what does it sound like? Can we watch it? Yeah. Unfortunately there are a bit few and far between, and the examples that are out there tend to be from like healthcare settings. Yeah. I would recommend those, the ones that are social work related on YouTube, because I think although they're , domestic abuse, you can think about their application much more broadly than that.

Vicki: I'll be able put to put links to all of those things for people. [00:41:00] So at the end of every episode, I always ask people the advice that they would give to their newly qualified self. So what 

would yours be? 

I think for me it would be to prioritize my own needs and wellbeing a little bit more and to be a bit more boundaried around my work.

I think, if I'm really honest, I think I burn out quite quickly as a social worker, and I think it's because you give you care and you give everything, but you can't do that unless you're really after yourself.

Charlie: I don't ever want that to be the message that, it's all your responsibility as a social worker to look after yourself. It's not your organizations need to look after you as well. But I also wish that I had prioritized me. I think as much as I. 

Vicki: Yeah, that's really 

good advice, I think. So a lot of people say similar things around that and taking care of yourself, which like you said, it isn't just on [00:42:00] you, but there's always something that you can do where I definitely did that in my first, I think I was excited, when I first qualified.

Oh 

yeah. I was so 

that I had a job, but , I was excited and I loved it. And so when you love something, you wanna put everything into it. And, I didn't have children, didn't really have any responsibilities at the time, which is different for everybody.

So there was nothing stopping me from say, working till six and then half exactly. 

Charlie: And 

Vicki: then seven, and that wouldn't be all the time. So I'd almost be like, oh, it's not all the time, it's fine. Whereas now I look back and think, it's 

Charlie: easy exactly what you said for that to be six, then six 30, then seven.

And before you know it, it's, yeah, you're working long hours and not really clawing back any time for yourself. Yeah, that's really helpful 

Vicki: advice. So thank you for coming on the podcast today

thank you. 

I hope that you took something from listening to that conversation. I always really love listening to his conversations back because I really get to [00:43:00] sort of doubly reflect on them. But as I said at the start, if anything has particularly resonated with you and you want to share it, do get in touch with me. 

I love knowing that you are listening and taking a lot from the podcast episodes, and I'm sure Charlie will as well. All the details, everything that Charlie mentioned, um, the information for that is in the show notes of this podcast. 

As well as all the ways that you can contact me. As I do at the end of every episode, I want to invite you to slow down for a pause, close your eyes. If it feels comfortable for you. 

Maybe roll your shoulders back and down. 

Take a couple of seconds to focus. On your breathing. 

And just enjoy. A minute or so. Now when this podcast finishes. For you. [00:44:00] Wherever you're going on to do today. Whatever comes up for you. No, that you can comeback. For a little moment of calm whenever you need it. Thank you so much for listening and take care.