On this episode I am joined by Melanie Ho. She is a multi-media creator, speaker and organizational consultant. She has an award-winning debut book: Beyond Leaning In: Gender Equity & What Organizations are Up Against. She is also the founder of Strategic Imagination, a firm dedicated to the imaginative arts to help businesses and non-profits achieve transformational change.
We talk about how she aims to help businesses make an impact by helping them get unstuck when they cannot continue to do things as they were previously doing. Beyond Leaning In is a different type of business book based on research but told as a novel in a comic book style.
We talk about how businesses can make simple changes to create a long-lasting positive impact in their work culture.
Beyond Leaning In by Melanie Ho — Melanie Ho
Melanie Ho (@melanieho13) • Instagram photos and videos
Filled Up Cup - Unconventional Self Care for Modern Women
Ashley (@filledupcup_) • Instagram photos and videos
On this episode I am joined by Melanie Ho. She is a multi-media creator, speaker and organizational consultant. She has an award-winning debut book: Beyond Leaning In: Gender Equity & What Organizations are Up Against. She is also the founder of Strategic Imagination, a firm dedicated to the imaginative arts to help businesses and non-profits achieve transformational change.
We talk about how she aims to help businesses make an impact by helping them get unstuck when they cannot continue to do things as they were previously doing. Beyond Leaning In is a different type of business book based on research but told as a novel in a comic book style.
We talk about how businesses can make simple changes to create a long-lasting positive impact in their work culture.
Beyond Leaning In by Melanie Ho — Melanie Ho
Melanie Ho (@melanieho13) • Instagram photos and videos
Filled Up Cup - Unconventional Self Care for Modern Women
Ashley (@filledupcup_) • Instagram photos and videos
Welcome to the filled up cup podcast. We are a different kind of self-care resource one that has nothing to do with bubble baths and face masks and everything to do with rediscovering yourself. We bring you real reviews, honest experiences and unfiltered opinions that will make you laugh, cry, and most importantly, leave you with a filled up cup.
Ashley:I am so excited today. I have Melanie ho joining me. She is an organizational consultant, author, multimedia creator, and speaker Melanie's book is beyond leaning in gender equity, and what organizations are up against. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Melanie:Oh, thanks so much for having me, Ashley,
Ashley:can you explain to us what your book is about?
Melanie:Yes. So it's called beyond leaning in, and it is about the challenges that women face in the workplace and why we're so tired of being told to just lean in and have more confidence and take our seats at the table that doesn't take into it. Count the challenges that make it harder for women to lean in. The unequal rewards and even penalties when we do lean in. And the fact that leaning in is just such a stereotypically masculine way of thinking about work, right. It's saying that women need to interrupt and get in there and, you know, bang on the table to be heard. And why aren't we talking about why. Men maybe should be socialized to listen more and to amplify each other's voices. It's a business book, but it's actually told as a novel goes back and forth between the perspective of different characters of different genders and different generations. I hope that's just a more fun and engaging way to. Engage with the topics, but also that it helps readers develop empathy for characters who are unlike them and also make sense of their own experiences and some of the challenges that they may have faced.
Ashley:I love the idea that it's more like a story and that you incorporate More art and graphics within your books as well that it does kind of release some of that pressure because it can be such a heavy topic. It is really frustrating. And I do hope that that shift is kind of coming in, but pressure is always put on women. It's like always up to us instead of having this equal approach of why can't it be both? Why can't it be? We give a little, they give a little, and then it evens.
Melanie:Exactly. So first of all, I think that the pandemic has really brought more attention to these issues. I remember was it last fall? There was a TikTok video that went viral about weaponized incompetence. Did you see this? It was, it was hilarious, right? The woman who created a video about how she sent her husband to the store with this incredibly detailed list of, you know, here are all the groceries, but just these cut out pictures, because if she didn't give that level of detail, he wouldn't do it. That led to this. Really amazing discussion. I think on social media about how men often avoid equitable division of work, both at home and in the office and in the office that looks like women always taking the notes, right. Having to clean up after events. Always joining the committees event, planning committees, probably doing disproportionate mentoring. And that it is something where it's not that the men can't be good at that, but they say, they're not, they're not expected to, the women are expected to, and then they get better and better at it because they have that practice. I love that discussion because I think it really brought attention to something that women are always discussing behind closed doors. But just until recently, hadn't been out in the open as much.
Ashley:I feel like as negative as the pandemic, was so many ways, I think that the really fantastic and eye opening thing. It kind of did bring out for a lot of families as well as industries is that people had reached their breaking point. They didn't wanna have to do above and beyond at work, then come home and have to do all their family duties or then teach if they had kids doing online and all of this stuff that I think people kind of reach the point that they were like, I can't, and I don't wanna do this anymore.
Melanie:Exactly it brought into question just why we have this sort of always on hustle, culture and mentality, where everyone is in, in so many places defined by their work. It's the first thing people often say, when they introduce themselves, you meet somebody new at a party at the park or whatever, it's, you know, what do you do? I think the pandemic really led us to question that, is that how we want to define ourselves?
Ashley:This idea of balance because I find, and generally speaking, men never get asked, oh, how do you balance it all? Where the pressure is put on us, that we have to balance it all. So I would love to see that aspect shift a little bit. What if advice would you give for industries where men just feel as frustrated as we do about some of these things and wanna be allies in this environment, how can men help shift the conversation?
Melanie:So I think the first thing for men is actually education. I always hesitate a little bit before saying that because I think that men are often socialized to want to kill the problem, to want to find action steps. I find that men often will tune out if I don't come to them immediately with here's the list of five things that you need to do, but that's part of the problem. I call this whackamole culture, you know, that game whackamole you whack the mole and it just pops up somewhere else. Yes. And that, because. Corporate culture. And I say corporate, because I think corporate mentality just in is infused in everything, but government education, healthcare, right? All of these organizations kind of operate by the same corporate norms and corporate culture is about kill the problem as quickly as possible. That's also how men are socialized, kill the problem as fast as you can. And because of that, whenever I talk to men who want to be allies often, the first thing they'll say to me is, yeah, I really understand all the problems that women face at work because my wife or partner, or sister or daughter, just some woman in their life. Is facing X, Y, Z. It's that one problem. And now they've assumed that if you just solve that one problem, everything will be better. And it actually a lot of work. Oh, simple, right? Yeah. If it was that simple, we would've already solved it and it actually takes work to say, no, no, no. We actually have to step back that one problem. Isn't the only problem. And that one solution that you heard of, isn't gonna be the only solution. This is a system and it's a culture and it's deep. The first thing that. Men I think need to do is understand and also get comfortable with all the feels. Right. we talked a little bit earlier about why I use a story and beyond leaning in, and part of it is that any topic related to diversity, equity and inclusion is emotionally charged. We feel defensive or guilty or afraid or shameful, or we relive traumas. If it's something we've been through and that's really hard to deal with for all of us, but men are so socialized to just, tamp down all of those emotions. Until they get comfortable with that, they won't be able to dig into the issues. There are a lot of different, like small policy things I think men can do, or just ways they can be better allies or better managers. I do have the checklist when people want it, but I always kind of wanna subvert that desire for the checklist, like, okay, wait, wait, like let's first understand.
Ashley:We do wanna tackle it from a human level versus like just a walk through all these steps, because in a lot of ways, if they're not really willing to make those fundamental changes, a checklist is going to be a bandaid
Melanie:exactly. It's a mindset change that needs to happen.
Ashley:It is really frustrating because I know as much as all of this has been put and conditioned to women, that these are how we should think and feel the opposite is completely true for men. It's like, we don't ever consider, oh, you can feel this situation. You can't just think it. We don't give them the opportunity or the tools in a lot of these cases to do things differently either.
Melanie:Yeah, it's interesting. When I first launched my book, I actually asked a pretty broad range of people to read it in its earliest days so that I could get responses as I was thinking about how to best tell the story and had several married couples with a husband and a wife read the book together. Several of the husbands said to me that it was just such a light bulb for them because they realized as they were reading it, that their female partners were going through so many emotions and feeling. Rage. they'd be talking about it at breakfast or dinner and they'd notice the anger and the sadness and the rage that their partners were feeling. One guy said to me, he actually had to stop and say like, wait am I feeling feelings too? I probably am. They're not as near the surface, both because this isn't about my lived experience. But actually they're half the characters in my book are men. It's more, they had to also have that practice. It's like that muscle of letting those emotions come to the surface.
Ashley:It's funny because society just really wants to hold onto these gender roles. Mm-hmm which I do think is shifting and I do have so much hope for the next generation to take it and roll with it. And for it to be more diverse and different. Do you find that in corporate culture that you've seen a lot of that shift coming or it's still pretty status quo?
Melanie:I think it's hard, you know, it depends on whether I'm having a pessimistic day or an optimistic day. for sure. On the one thing I do think that there's a shift and I think a lot of that is because of generational shifts. I think that I'm kind of in that in between millennial and generation X place. But I think millennial culture. Is very open about therapy, for example, right. We, talk about emotions. I think there's a lot of research that shows actually, if you look at what millennials value in the workplace, there's this ven diagram where a lot of the things that women of all generations have historically valued are the same. It is things like authenticity. in their leaders and work life balance and a pause, the workplace culture. So I do see a shift there. I think it's hard because. What I call organizational impatience that quick win culture, that focus on the bottom line, whether it's a for profit company or a nonprofit company that often gets in the way. So even if there's a discussion about, okay, wouldn't it be great if we revamped our hiring processes in this way? Then the real decision of, okay, we have to hire this person tomorrow, makes it harder for people to make the right decision. I also worry because I think even as we are more aware, Some of the conditionings just run so deep. A good friend of mine the other day was telling me about sitting at the park and watching some kids playing and they were playing tennis and afterwards all the kids were supposed to clean up, but the girls were all, you know, nicely cleaning up and the boys were all goofing off and the teacher was goofing off with the boys. At the end, everyone got their little points. Their, whatever their reward was and that the parents were watching and just laughing about it. And you think, okay, these are gen Z or gen alpha kids. Their parents are probably millennial parents. We think of these generations as more aware and I'm sure they are right. They could probably all lead seminars. about gender equity. And yet the programming is so wired. It's so deep.
Ashley:Unfortunately more often than not, we turn into our parents. So it's like, we would see that and go, oh, that's normal or, oh, you know, that horrible phrase that just kills me every single time, but that, you know, boys will be boys.
Melanie:Yep. Mm-hmm
Ashley:and it's so ingrained into us that it's like, we can get so mad about it, but yet. Making that change can be so difficult and it's like, sometimes you just don't even see it until you see it.
Melanie:Yeah. I mean, it's hard, right? You see a cute little girl on the sidewalk and you wanna praise her pink dress or the you know, the bow in her hair. I have to put that check in my head. Wait would I give that say complete stranger, walking down the street, if I'm meeting a little girl for the first time versus a little boy for the first time, am I saying the same things? Am I giving them the same kind of praise and we're just so ingrained.
Ashley:I do think it's important as like, now that we hear that to kind of stop ourselves and go, oh, Hey wait, what am I projecting in this situation? Am I helping? Or am I hurting?
Melanie:Mm-hmm exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And where did I learn this? Yes. Where is my response coming from now?
Ashley:Going back a little bit, thinking about the pandemic and everybody being burned out and just kind of at their limit. I think in some ways the pandemic killed the traditional nine to five, Monday to Friday idea of that's what we want work life to look like going forward. Do you think that that is a shift that's gonna kind of phase out in a lot of industries? Or do you think that that's something that we're really ingrained into and will go back to being the norm?
Melanie:I feel like the jury's still out there. What gives me hope is certainly that we see so many employers saying that what they're adopting is a hybrid workforce that you know, probably there are some reasons they want to divest in real estate. So there may be some bottom line reason for them to do so. But I do think a lot of employers have at least the evidence now, That their teams can be just as productive in many cases were even more productive in the more flexible environment. What worries me is how much of the research shows the disconnect between executives and their staff and that executives. And often even just anyone in management positions are more likely. To want people in the office. What I worry about is that we end up with this kind of two-tiered workforce where companies say that people can be flexible because they know if they don't, people will quit. But what they really mean is you can be flexible, but the people who are in the office, that the executives see are the ones who are gonna have the better chances of promotion. There are all these great studies from before the pandemic of call centers in China. At these call centers, when people went remote, they were just as productive in case some cases more productive, but they were actually less likely to be promoted. And that's interesting employees who started remote. Had an even bigger challenge because they didn't get some of the onboarding that was needed. They didn't end that FaceTime to get to know the senior people.
Ashley:in some cases I would imagine it's sort of a sink or swim and they just kind of throw everybody into the office. I know a lot of industries training and having that comfortable orientation piece is lacking in a lot of cases. They have the position filled. So then they're happy about it.
Melanie:Yeah. I saw a study somewhere. I can't remember the exact number, but it was something about how for the majority of employees, the only training they got was how they used the copier.
Ashley:right. And sad. But I can definitely see that as being accurate.
Melanie:Yeah. Or, now the equivalent is probably how to use zoom.
Ashley:Right. And zoom, they were just mining their own business and then became overnight this like utilized tool, now even for people that say are returning to the office, but have decided that part-time works better for their lifestyle. Have you found that there's still sort of a negative outlook towards having part-time employees?
Melanie:Again, I do think that's very manager specific and that there are a lot of executives and managers out there who. Still believe in that always on culture. What I hope is that there are more employers that are starting to look at things like, well, how do you measure outcomes instead of activity? How do you measure. Competencies just cuz the more sophisticated ways of thinking about talent, you see organizations, for example, that previously HR was this very logistical, benefit policies, things like that. And they've changed their chief HR officers now achieved talent officer, a chief telling officer or it's people in business operations. And even just in the renaming of HR. I mean sometimes that can be just cosmetic. But often you do see companies that are saying like, we're gonna take a more strategic approach to talent. That's, to me, that's evidence that, okay, this is an organization that's going to think about hiring and promotion differently.
Ashley:As much as there are massive changes that are needed. I do think that businesses are starting to become more aware of making sure that they. Fair and less racist hiring practices. Mm-hmm that they have more diverse staff even with just not having primarily men in the office or, you know yeah. How executives were traditionally men and maybe secretaries were traditionally female and having that mind shift a little bit more than we historically have ever seen in the past
Melanie:Yeah. I also think one of the most promising things for women and people of color and those who have been historically excluded is actually the rise of solopreneurship and the infrastructure available for independent consultants and freelancers and entrepreneurs. The fact that I think many employers are wanting to hire. Folks on contract because their needs are changing so quickly. It's hard to hire full time when everything is changing so fast and they don't necessarily know what their needs will be 12 months from now. I started my own business during the pandemic and talked to a lot of other people who did, and I don't know if I could have done this 10 years ago because the infrastructure support and the software and just everything that's available to enable someone to be a freelancer and independent consultant now makes it so much easier than it would have been 10 years ago.
Ashley:Oh, absolutely. I definitely agree with that. Again, the pandemic forced us into wanting to, to do those businesses and to think, is this something that I really wanna do this nine to five pays? Well, boring takes up so much time or again like solo entrepreneurship doesn't necessarily save that time thing. You may potentially end up working way longer, but at least it's something that fuels your passion and feels more worth it than to build a brand for a different corporation.
Melanie:Yeah. And, to be able to work your own hours and your own schedule. When people think about work life balance, some of it is certainly fewer hours and some of it is also just hours when it makes sense for you, which could mean having a week that's harder. And then a week that you're taking completely off. That working independently affords that as does working for employers that really value that and value, you know, things like unlimited vacation days which I know is controversial because some say that doesn't actually lead to people taking more vacation, but. offering unlimited vacation days and actually supporting the fact that people could use them.
Ashley:I think even just taking time off from your job is so beneficial that I think on a lot of corporations don't necessarily enforce. You must take this minimum vacation every year or. If you are having a mental health day, take that sick day mm-hmm like don't come into the office and really prioritize the fact that we need a break. We can't do it all all the time. It's okay to say I need a pause.
Melanie:One of my favorite things is also talking to employers who are trying to figure out, okay, well, how do we retain employees for the long haul? There's so much turnover these days. And how do you reward. Employees beyond promotions and more pay, obviously. That's great, but are there other incentives that keep people longer? The idea I love is sabbaticals. If somebody stayed five years, give them the opportunity to take a month off or two months off and write that book or go on a long vacation or just spend time on their hobbies and giving people that reset, I think is so important.
Ashley:I love that. And that is true. It's like we do almost get caught in this. My job takes up so much of my time or so much of my passion that it's like as individuals, we forget, what are our hobbies? What brings us pleasure? Like what do we like doing? Or even just, I need to lay on my couch and watch Netflix and do absolutely nothing for a week and just really have that like decompression time, I think is so invaluable to us. There's
Melanie:this weird professional FOMO that I think people have, right. I'll sometimes talk to folks who are really burnt out and okay, well, when can you take a vacation? can you take a vacation next week? Well, I could, but there's this project. Well, could someone else work on that project? Well, yes, but I don't wanna miss out. I don't wanna miss that opportunity there will be another opportunity, but that professional FOMO is so strong.
Ashley:I think it all just leads back to this idea that there's a lack mm-hmm and there really isn't like, we all do have our place. We all have our space when the right opportunity comes like. People aren't gonna necessarily be looking outside. I know some industries they do, but in the most cases, if you're on a strong team, they're gonna say, we'll find the right opportunity or the right position or the right promotion for you.
Melanie:I think that is such a wonderful point. I never actually thought of it using that phrase, but lack that is it it's actually the scarcity mindset. People have, right. There's a limited number of opportunities. If I don't grab this one, there won't be others. That's actually not true because at most organizations that are constantly trying to grow and accomplish things, there will be other opportunities that come along. And if there are not, there are other jobs out there.
Ashley:I think that in some cases almost targeted to women, cuz we've always historically been pitted against each other. Mm-hmm there can only be one special spot for this person or, you know, You have to go after that man or whatever the case may be, but it's always pitting women against each other. Instead of saying, you can work together, you are a great team. Like we should be connecting more. Mm-hmm so it's also that division.
Melanie:Yeah. That's such a good point. That's where that fear comes from.
Ashley:It's so frustrating and I really do hope that part is turning and that we don't look at it as there's not enough room because really there's room for. All women and all people mm-hmm across the board.
Melanie:I definitely think that's changing. When I talk to women of older generations and I ask them what they perceive as most different today, that's often what they will say that. In their generation a few decades ago, they often felt like women were so much putted against each other. And even though those impulses are still there, what they see now is how much younger women are supporting one another. And mid-career women are supporting one another, and those who are rising into senior positions and that it gives them a lot of hope. How different that is today.
Ashley:One of the other workshops that you. Run, they're called the strategic imagination workshops. Can you explain to us what that is?
Melanie:Yeah, so strategic imagination. It's the name of my company, but I always say that feels really bureaucratic. I think of it more as almost my mission statement which is to use the arts. And I mentioned beyond leading in my book is a business book, but it's told as a novel, my hope is to use the arts, whether that's fiction or comics or theater as a way to help individuals and organizations kind of get unstuck, right? When nothing else is working and you need to think more creatively. I think that's where the arts really come into play. I draw comics about diversity at work diversity, equity, and inclusion. A lot of them are based on scenes from my book. I think they're just a, hopefully an engaging and fun way to talk about what are really difficult issues. One of my workshops is called reimagined workplace equity through comics, which is maybe a little bit hard to say I've been going through many different potential name iterations, but essentially the premise of this workshop is that a lot of employers and organizations feel kind of stuck when it comes to DEI. They're not making the progress. They would like secretly, I think people kind of dread DEI trainings, even people who are super committed to the cause because often they feel awkward. It's hard to discuss these emotionally charged topics. It's hard to make progress. My hope is that comics can actually be a way to reinvigorate these conversations at organizations. I start by showing a few of my comics including one of my comics called the cupcake Track which is we can put a link in the show notes, but essentially the left side of the comic shows is a promotion memo. In the memo, we've all seen this memo or we've heard it, you know, we've heard people say things like this, the memo congratulates to employees, their name are names are Mike and Mara, Mike, and Mara being promoted to the exact same position data. analysis but in the memo, we see that Mike is being praised for his promotion for helping with$5 million in revenues. And Mara is being praised for her great baking skills. It's like, you know, all of us have gained a few pounds from her cupcakes. And below that I draw a guy who's kind of shrugging. Like, what's the big deal. They both got promoted because I think that's often the case when we read, something like that. Or we hear something like that. It's like, that's not ideal, but does it really matter? And then my next panel in the comic shows a man and the woman talking to each other. And what I say when I talk about this comic is this could be six months later. This could be a week later. It could be a year later. One of them is saying, I need help on this project. What do you know about Mike or Mara. And his colleague replies, oh, I don't know much about Mara. I heard Mike is great. And then what I draw below that is it's because people remember Mike for the revenues and, you know, I draw a little like pile of money and people remember Mara for the cupcakes. And I draw a cupcake, and this is based on the scene for my book. But I used that as a way to talk about intent versus impact that nobody here means to be biased. The two people discussing Mike and Mara don't even know them, but that these small things that we don't think matter actually have a big impact on individuals, but actually also on this business and in the workshop, I have participants actually draw the next four panels of this comic. No one needs to be an artist. This isn't about creating art to go in a museum. It's about. Using drawing as a way to be more creative and to just problem solve in a different way. So I make it super easy and fun and we draw the next few panels. What's the impact on Mara? What's the impact on the business. And then we actually draw some frames that are solutions and we get kind of all the different points of intervention that have to happen to keep something like this from occurring and again, and again and again, and to mitigate the negative result when it does happen well,
Ashley:I love the fact that it. It keeps it light, even though it's a serious discussion I think sometimes when we do like a talk therapy or when we have somebody who's lecturing the group, then it's like, the group does tend to get more defensive and it gets boring and you kind of tune it out and it's like, Ugh, there's other things that we could be doing where it's like, if we. Create a environment where it's like fun and they get to draw, they get to involve themselves. They get to think about it in a different perspective, because there is so much energy in that statement. When you talk about how they're being compared for their organizational skills and their baking skills versus actually thinking about how we absorb the information and how that could affect them, whether it's a year, whether it's a week mm-hmm whenever they're having that conversation, it really does make huge impacts because we hear. The same messaging for certain employees all the time that then whether we know it to be true or not, we do tend to just repeat that information. Mm-hmm
Melanie:In my book, I have two characters named Chad and Hailey. And the CEO, Deborah who she's kind of the character of the book. Who's trying to figure out what's going on. She's the CEO of a tech company. She's like smashed all these glass ceilings. She's mentored a lot of women. So she's trying to figure out why are women quiting at higher rates and we go through a lot of different. Perspectives of different characters, but it's kind of her discovery story. A younger woman reverse mentors, her, and she starts to understand, and she attends this presentation where Chad and Hailey are both talking about their data analytics, product projects. And it's so clear from these presentations that while child is strong, Haley is stronger. And then she goes and talks to their manager and, you know, I just heard Chad and Haley's presentations and it's really great. And the manager says to her, oh yeah, You know, Haley is the glue of the office and she's got such an infectious smile and Chad's really great at data. This light bulb goes off in her head like, wait, I just saw them and completely different story. She actually Combs into their performance review files and finds that even in their actual files, Haley actually is rated stronger at data. And it's really all about how just all these little things add up that even if Haley is stronger at data, even if in her official performance review, She is stronger at data. If her manager is going around, not even thinking about it and just describing Chad as the good one with data and Hailey's infectious smile, how many people are hearing that and does Haley know that that's how he's describing her. And what does that do to her confidence? We're often told that women aren't confident and they have imposter and syndrome and all of that. It's like, where does that come from? A lot of it comes from being constantly demeaned.
Ashley:I wouldn't have even thought about it like that, but it's like, once you hear it, it is like that light bulb. That, of course, of course that's where it comes from. Of course that's where we're funneling that cycle forward. It's so simple, but yet so powerful I really do think that your workshops are gonna help so many people that way and really help different industries. Now, when you go in and do DEI consulting for businesses, is it certain businesses or all industries?
Melanie:It's really all industries, I think it's organizations who are at a point where they want to try something different. You know, they've probably already done an unconscious bias training because everyone starts with that. but I think they're at a point where, Hey, we do care. But it's hard. They're realizing it's not as easy to have these conversations as they thought it was. And so they're ready to do something a little bit more creative and different
Ashley:For the industries that maybe are at the point that they acknowledge something's not right, or we aren't retaining staff or we're having these challenging situations. At what point would you recommend that they hire a DEI consultant?
Melanie:I think people tend to need help at all steps. But they probably need to know what they need help with and be committed to that. I think sometimes the first impulse of many organizations is, well, let's just throw money at the problem. Right. And they don't necessarily know what they're spending that money on or why. I think organizations need to know, okay, what's our goal. Where do we want to start? That's usually my recommendation is you've gotta have a purpose and you've gotta be in it for the long haul. What worries me most is when an organization thinks. Like, we're gonna have this one training and then we're done. And like, no, actually you're gonna need to figure out a lot of different things. And either that's through your internal capacity, you're devoting teams of people to, it's probably a combination of internal capacity. People who have dedicated roles for DEI, for a workplace culture as well. You. Staff who feel like that. In addition to their day jobs, they can support and spend time on DEI. And that is something is that is valued and what penalize them and bringing in expert support on different topics when you need it. And that all of that is part of this larger system, because it's not a problem that can just be, you know, killed checklist.
Ashley:No, not at all. It's not a one mold fits all. It really is. Yes, exactly. Cause I think it's something like we have to be told or we have to see something mm-hmm like so many times before it even registers as a thought to us to change that behavior and mindset. So you really will have to. Find a consultant that works best for your corporation and ensure that they're regularly having this conversation with staff. So that it's a permanent change. Yeah. Especially too, when new new staff comes in, it can't be like, well, we trained the six month ago staff, so right. We'll just figure it out.
Melanie:Yeah. It's like, yeah. Yeah. we had that DEI event a year ago, so we're done if only it were that simple right. We put the black square our Instagram account.
Ashley:Well, thank you so much for having this conversation with me today. Can you tell people what your website is or where they can find you online? If they're looking for you?
Melanie:Yes, super easy. It's just my name. Www dot Melanie, ho.com. If it's easier for you to remember. www.beyondleaningin.com goes to the same place. All my social links are on my website. So probably the easiest way to find them all is to click there. I answer every single message that I receive. I love talking to people on social media or, old fashioned email works as well. But my Instagram is Melanie ho 13. That's M E L A N I E H O 13 and you can find all my comics there.
Ashley:Awesome. Thank you so much.
Melanie:Thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun.
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