It Makes What It Makes: The Podcast
It Makes What It Makes: The Podcast is a place where we do what we want.
Join Lisa and Marian's conversations about anything and everything from fun topics like animals, to dating in middle age/perimenopause, to doubting the official story. Like lake house shots, it makes what it makes.
Email itmakeswhatitmakes@gmail.com
It Makes What It Makes: The Podcast
Why Does He Do That? - Part 1
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In this episode, Marian and Lisa dive into a book we've mentioned often but don't seem to have an episode about, Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That?
What should we cover in the future? What are your thoughts on this episode? Have other opinions or feedback? Let us know at itmakeswhatitmakes@gmail.com.
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Special thanks to our producer, Jason Tedford, for making us crystal clear with our shenanigans.
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Welcome to It Makes What It Makes, the podcast. Where we do what we want. Here we are. That's Lisa. That's Marion. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01We're back here. It's been a while.
SPEAKER_00It yes. A skip week is like, it feels like I've been gone. Like we haven't done it in a month. That's what it feels like.
SPEAKER_01It does kind of feel like that. I mean, it was a different month last time.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I believe. Yeah. Because it won't be on the 10th of August recording this. But yeah.
SPEAKER_00Which was fine. I had a really busy week last week. So it was sort of like, oh, okay. So I wasn't.
SPEAKER_01Were you had a work thing or no?
SPEAKER_00I had a lot of work things. I had a lot of work. It was a busy week of work things. Like I had um a workshop to get ready for. So print things. And then I had a workshop to conduct, conduct the very next day. Then we had a work dinner. Then um, oh gosh, I had my neurologist checkup, which was like at 7:45 in the morning.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I want to get to that.
SPEAKER_00Put a pen in that. Okay. And then um, you know, company picnic. And then since my boss was still in town, I was like, I chose to do my one-on-one in person. So I went back to the, you know, it was a bunch of office time and work stuff. So, you know, more than normal. So but it felt, yeah, it was it wouldn't, it wouldn't have been a big to-do for us to record, but it was a nice like sense of like, okay, that's one less thing for last week, anyways. So how was your week?
SPEAKER_01Right. Uh yeah, I didn't do all those things, but anyway, I did go camping, like I I was saying before the podcast, I went camping before uh for work, which was awesome. Yeah. So thank you to Rosie if she's listening, my boss. Um, speaking of which, she supports this show. If you would like to support this show, we have ways to do that for free. The easiest thing to do is just share the show, just share it with somebody. We have more than 200 episodes now, so there's something for everyone, I believe.
SPEAKER_00Maybe.
SPEAKER_01I think so. Oh, I mean, if you've lived a human life for any amount of time, I feel like there's something.
SPEAKER_00There's something, yes, of course.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, you can also rate the show on a lot of podcast apps. You can give us a review, and you can you can sign up to download, like subscribe to the show. That's what it is. Sign up to download. So you can subscribe on a bunch of the apps. And uh if you want to support us financially, we do have an option for that. That's still uh buymeacoffee.com slash female mentor pod right now because I haven't updated that. But we do have a new email address, it makes what it makes at gmail.com.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So you can reach us there. Any literally any feedback. You you laugh. I was listening to an episode recently where you're kind of making fun of me for since I asked for feedback there, but I I really like it, and we read some on the air people uh and uh we had somebody who I seem to have had a positive uh experience based on what we talked about. Um, but anyway, we do have some monthly supporters. Something you can do is you can you can donate just five dollars one time or up to a hundred dollars a month in a recurring gift, and uh I already mentioned Rosie the Riveter, but there's also the librarian, the other preacher's daughter, ambrosia, the seer, and my big sister. I think I always think there's another one, but anyway, thank you to the people that support our show. You can also check out our producer, Jason Tedford, at Wolfman Studios in Little Rock, Arkansas. He is awesome. I've said a lot of things about him that are nice, I feel like I try to because he is he's a great dude, also. Yes, um, but he also has an excellent studio there. So um if we sound good, that's him. If we don't, that's probably not him. That's what I like for if we don't, it's probably my internet connection because yeah, internet. Everybody in my neighborhood, I think, must log on at this time of the evening or something. But yeah. Um, okay, I want to get the update on your health if you want to do that next.
SPEAKER_00Okay, yeah. So last week I went in for my neurology, sort of like what do they call it? When you get discharged from the hospital, like you got to come back like a follow-up. Follow-up. That's the word I'm looking for. So, of course, it's 7:40. It's so early for me to be out of the house and looking like a normal human being. So go um to the appointment, you know, do all the stuff or whatever. And um, first thing they do is like, you know, they first the first thing they do is they have to like do the whole, get on this scale, you know. Like, I'm like, thanks, thanks. Awesome. So get on the scale, then take the blood pressure. And like she does, she's like, I'm gonna use this arm. I'm like, okay. And she's like, it does its little machine thing. She's like, hmm. She goes, Do you have like low blood pressure? And I'm like, Yeah. And she's like, Well, it's like 71 over like 50 something. I'm like, Yeah, that's really low. Well, that's pretty low. She goes, Yeah. She goes, let me do the other arm. So do the other arm. She's like, Well, that one's like 82 over. And I'm like, it's it's usually pretty low. She goes, Do you like get dizzy when you stand? I'm like, Oh, yeah, all the time. She's like, Yeah, okay. But that we're we're not there for blood pressure, we're there for brain. So yeah, but it's all connected. You Marion, you're assuming way too much. You're I know.
SPEAKER_01Listen, this is back with the your old work for the doctor, aren't you? Yes.
SPEAKER_00This is some disjointed healthcare. I'm not impressed. That's not our department. That's not my UAMS. I swear to God, their their actual motto is that's not my job. I'm not kidding. That's how I felt the entire time I was there. So just shout out to UMS, get it together. Um, so go and sit and wait for the neurologist. Super nice doctor. Um she's like, but she opens up, she's like, So you're here like for a follow-up for a stroke. And I said, Nope, nope, I did not have a stroke. And she's like, Oh, she like turns and looks, and you know, and she's like, Nope, you didn't. She's like looking through all my stuff. And of course, I'm like, at this point, I'm like, I want to give her context. So I tell her the context of the story. Because you know, I had lunch with the lady who found me, so I had a lot more context. And she's like, Well, do you have any more? Do you have or do you have a history of seizures? And I was like, No, I go, but this has happened before. And I was at home, and I obviously did not remember that either, really much, except for something weird happened. Um, and she's like, Well, you don't have a history. She's like, looking at my like MRI results and things like that, she's like, There's literally nothing here. And so she goes through, like, you know, what prescriptions I have. So you am you taking the ambient? Like, nope, I've stopped the ambient. Like, that was like my primary care doctor's like, um, let's not do that. And I'm like, okay, fine, fair enough. So um, you know, I'm like, basically, I'm like, basically what boils down to I'm taking estrogen patches and progesterone um capsules, whatever. Like, that's that is my prescription meds. Oh, and minoxidil. So that's those are my three. They did um prescribe me those, the statins, and she's like, are you taking this dad's statin? I'm like, mm-mm, nope.
SPEAKER_01She's like I don't recommend it.
SPEAKER_00She's like, mm-mm. She she kind of laughed in my reaction, and she's like, I'm like, I'll take the baby aspirin that they prescribe me. Sure, but I'm not taking those. There's no reason I don't have high cholesterol. I in fact, my good cholesterol runneth over.
SPEAKER_01Like, there's no that they're so aggressive with those.
SPEAKER_00They are. It's so strange. And so I was like, I'm not taking it. She's like, I wouldn't either if I were you. So that's it. And she's like, Well, there's nothing really, like, I can't, there's nothing here, there's no lesions, there's nothing, you know. And so she's like, basically, just really like, so I'm just gonna release this. And I'm like, okay. Like, what what am I supposed to ask?
SPEAKER_01Like it just I I don't know. I feel like they should have questions.
SPEAKER_00That's what I think, but it is UAMS, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01I don't know your insurance, but if if you could get a different doctor, oh 100%, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's just sort of like it was kind of a letdown because I really learned zero. And you know, so I do go back and I see the cardiologist. So maybe there's some answers there. I have no idea. Maybe the low blood pressure, that would be a nice one to maybe go. What what what does this mean? I honestly don't even know what it means.
SPEAKER_01Well, these are conversations I have with Chat GPT. Yeah. Yeah. They can, I mean, I don't know what access they have to like academic or whatever peer-reviewed articles, but they can synthesize information, which is helpful because you're like, okay.
SPEAKER_00Well, really, and I guess what I'm thinking about, like the like it, my mom has low blood pressure. So, really, the thing I have to be, this is where it becomes down to me being an advocate, is like when my blood pressure starts getting normal or just a little bit above normal, that's high for me. Whereas most people go like, oh, that's normal, that's great. I'm like, no, that's actually it's running high.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And that's what needs this about like body temperature, because that 98.6 or whatever is an average, and I don't even know how they arrived at that. Probably a bunch of men. Probably. Like my butt my body temperature, I think, is a little bit lower. So if I'm so if I'm at 99 degrees, it's like a fever fever. But people are like, I don't know. If I'm at the doctor, they don't take it seriously. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean that the the blow, the low blood pressure, I know they're not gonna take seriously, but I do want that. Like, how do I when I go to the cardiologist, I'm like, how do I advocate for that? Like, and should I? Do I need to? What you know, those type of things.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I you kind of just gotta get pushy a little bit and be like, look, this happened to me. It's uh it's dangerous for me. I don't want it happening again. And especially trying to. I mean, just say your frustrations like, hey, I feel like nobody's really trying to help me get to the bottom of this.
SPEAKER_00And I get it. Okay, here's the thing. Here is I get it. I I look healthy, I'm a healthy weight, like I have no other weird health things. So here is the other side of the pendulum. When you appear and show up healthy, it's kind of like, well, you look, you're fine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but you're not. Obviously, you're not fine. Right. Like, oh I'm mad, I'm mad about it. Like it it pisses me right off. And you're you're probably visiting female doctors even that are dismissing you. Yeah, they're not even curious. That's that's what I didn't like about UAMS.
SPEAKER_00Like, I think they only really want the super weird stuff because it's a teaching hospital, and I and if yeah, if you're not interesting to them, it's like and there's a lot of weird, you know, and and I was walking out of there back to my car, and I'm walking past like this like couple, and you know, I'm walking past a woman who's obviously going to the neurology clinic because half her face, like she looked perfectly normal on one side, not much older than me, and then half her face is like you can tell. And I'm like, I get it. I'm not showing up like that. I get it, but you know, and then it made me feel guilty. Like, look, you're fine, Lisa.
SPEAKER_01You know, no, I don't listen to that voice. What if you had hurt yourself or somebody else? I know, I know, which you could have quite possibly. I mean, yeah, I know you have insurance on your car, but you could have wrecked your car, which is a whole thing, but you could have done damage to a building. Or people, most of all, you could have injured yourself or someone else. Like, I I don't understand why it's not, especially since it's happened twice now. Feels like one time, you're like, okay. But and you're the symptoms you're talking. I mean, did you talk that over with them? Like what was happening right before? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00I stepped her all the way through it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I wonder, I wonder if you need an endocrinologist because because I still lean hypoglycemia.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, I don't know what you're eating or how much, and I don't want to make a judgment call on that, but I feel like the likelihood that you're not getting enough is is high. Like that you're not getting enough to keep your blood sugar steady.
SPEAKER_00No, no. I think I think honestly, I I eat all day long every day. And like I said, that day of it was a little weird, but I had candy on the plane. I had plane snacks. I I mean, I eat everything that people hand to me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, and another thing about flying is the possibility of blood clots.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_01Uh that I I watched this guy, and I don't know, I probably mentioned it already, but I this guy I watched on YouTube. I think he was 51 years old, had gone to Europe, and after his flight back, he I he lived alone, so I don't know how long before they, but that's what they thought had happened is basically like he had developed a blood clot on the plane and they caught him after he like I I feel like that's something that I don't know. There have to be ways to detect that stuff. I I hate this.
SPEAKER_00Something I know it does, and it makes me nervous because I'm every now, every time I get in my car, I'm like, how are we feeling? Like I have sort of this like this weird like response, like, okay, let's really assess. Do I feel funky? Am I feeling okay? You know, it's like because I'm like, I'm not gonna chant because it does thankfully, whatever happened, there is a lead up. Does that make sense? Yeah, and so I know I like now that it's happened twice, I'm like, I know that feeling, and I know immediately just pull the fuck over.
SPEAKER_01I think you need to put cheese snacks in your purse. Just something that's not gonna be the candy, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I always I usually have I travel like normally. I like I said, like I said, on on the plane, I had a protein bar with me. I just didn't want it. I was like, I don't want that.
SPEAKER_01Like just think of it like medication. Like sometimes the food you eat is your medicine. Maybe, maybe, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I do have to I have I do have a small town update.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So um not this, not this past weekend, but the weekend before. So our friend Kim was getting out of her pool, and she's like, so they have a bigger pool, like an above-ground pool. They started off like smaller. Like, remember the one I had that one summer? Yeah, they they started there, and the next summer they got a bigger one, and then now they have a super tall, like the super tall, like you get in, it's like up here, like on your chest. So that just means that the ladder is even taller. You know those janky little pool ladders? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01I have a scar from one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, Kim's gonna have one too. Um, she was uh getting out of her pool, and luckily, like two of her friends were over there, and um, she was getting out. She turned, like, climbed up and turned around to like exit the pool and lost, like, lost her footing.
SPEAKER_01Oh no.
SPEAKER_00And did like a head first dive into the ground. So thankfully, her chin, like her feet caught most of the ladder on the way down, and like it took most of the fall like on the side of her face, but she did something to like her C3, like a small fracture, and she's in a she's in one of those neck braces for five five more weeks. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's awful. That hurts your whole body.
SPEAKER_00It yeah, she looked like she had been in a car wreck.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so not only that, her ring camera caught the fall, and it is I I I was she I just wasn't, you know how you know how I am. Like when something catches me off guard, because I've done it to you, like in the movies or something, where like I'm like, I do like the ah, you know, and she showed me, I mean, I was not prepared. It was it's so disturbing. Oh, it's it's not even funny, like not even, not even funny. You're like, uh, you like had she landed any other way? I don't know. I don't know what her fate would have been. Um so, but my joke is like, I'm like, you need to, you know how people on Amazon they post like videos of the stuff they buy. And I'm like, can you please post this on Amazon as a review for this letter?
SPEAKER_01Oh man, yeah, they're not known for their stability, those above your no, and it didn't help that like her husband was out of town, like, and not just like out of town, like in California, you know. Was she by herself?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, but she had friends over, yeah. And like, and then she definitely needed to go, like the 911 should have been called right then. But her being a nurse, she's like, I'm fine, just help me to the bed, you know. And the next day she's like, uh, I can't hardly move, you know. So she did go, she ended up going to the hospital and getting checked out. So, but she's fine.
SPEAKER_01I'm not even a nurse, and I would do that. I mean, I'm giving myself to the ER with chest pains.
SPEAKER_00So, yeah, yeah, happens. It's fine. It's fine. Okay, I do have one more thing because I'm just like really obsessed right now. Have you been watching any of the Lindsay Clancy trial at all?
SPEAKER_01No, it's like the new What's Her Face Up in your neck of the woods, too. I'm sure it is.
SPEAKER_00It all happens there. And Karen Reed, that's what I'm thinking of. Karen Reed.
SPEAKER_01The coverage of it makes me think of the Karen. I don't know anything about it.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you really need to check it out. It's okay as far as like a women's health type, it has the whole because she was suffering from postpartum um psychosis. First it was PPD, postpartum depression, and then postpartum psychosis. And so she's being accused of killing her three children and then trying to commit suicide. But there's some things in the case that are really sketch, like the amount of time that there's no way she could she had done that in that amount of time. Um, the husband seems really disengaged. He's already, he was shortly like after like that, like four months after he started dating his now wife and is already remarried. Like it's it's you really need to check it out because yeah, it's been it's interesting.
SPEAKER_01I I already had an interest in true carm, but being a juror was I already I talked about there's a whole episode about it, such a cool experience, but you kind of think like that. I'm like, any reasonable doubt is a not guilty. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because that's what I would want for me. Also, uh right, like if so if I'm accused of something heinous, I want a juror like me that goes, you know what, you're you really like you have to think like so easy to do.
SPEAKER_00Everything has all the math has to add up. Everything has to add up. If it doesn't, then I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I I spent my hobby is is the Charlie Kirk stuff. So um I I maybe one thing at a time because they had the preliminary hearing for the guy that's accused of doing it. But the the evidence is so ridiculous. I mean it is ridiculous.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um but and I'm like, when in the history of ever has a public assassination been a lone gunman? No matter how many times they try to shove that narrative down our throats. I don't think Lee Harvey Oswald, I don't think Serhan Serhan, I don't think uh James Row Ray, right? Like that's Kennedy Kennedy M O K, whatever. Like, no.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01When is that? It's never the truth. Especially when they pedal it that hard. But anyway.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's a well, it's an interesting case. What's what's interesting as the trial unfolds is that it seems to be that the prosecution it seems to be doing more for the defense. It's so strange how that everything's unfolding. It's just, you're like, what? Because there's times where like um the prosecuting attorney, which is a woman, she'll be asking questions, and I'll forget that she's the prosecutor, not the defense attorney.
SPEAKER_01Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_00It's like, what whoa, whoa, whoa.
SPEAKER_01No, and are they private attorneys or are they public like a public?
SPEAKER_00So it's so it's prosecutor public, yeah, it's the commonwealth. And then um, and then Lindsay's lawyer is is defending her.
SPEAKER_01And the the So does that a private attorney or does she have a public defendant?
SPEAKER_00She has a private attorney.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00And he's freaking awesome.
SPEAKER_01And there's yeah, it makes a difference, sadly. That you have to, I mean, like if you're if you don't have money and you yeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's just the the husband isn't looking real good. And I'm trying to keep an open mind. Like, you know, that's just how we are as people. We want somebody to be the villain, right? And it's like if he doesn't come off as like, well, he's not crying enough, or he, you know, it's like we people immediately start, and I'm trying not to do that.
SPEAKER_01I know because everybody's right about Chris Watts, though.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they were, yeah, they were.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, I don't are you familiar? I I'm I'm I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna go down and rabbit. Okay. I'm gonna resist right now. Okay, okay. Because yeah, because there's so many examples, but um but yeah, it's a it's a it's a good case. Oh still taking them. Okay, I got a special case for the TSA for my trip to Ireland because I'm like, I'm not going for 10 days without it. Right. No. At first I thought I could, you know, when I thought I was gonna take it once a week, but this split dose thing, like, I don't want to be without it, even if it were shorter. Like it pushed my limits in Nashville.
SPEAKER_00So I was like, uh Yeah, so like I said, and for anybody who's thinking about GLP ones, you can you can keep it unrefrigerated for two weeks, and the it's it's efficacy remains the same.
SPEAKER_01That's trzebatite specifically that you're talking about. Yes, yeah, because some are not like that.
SPEAKER_00But that one, yes, absolutely. It's not gonna harm it.
SPEAKER_01I still put the effort into keeping it cold and like manually taking it. Like I'll camp and I have a refrigerator in my camper and I leave it in there during when I'm there, but when I travel, I have like an insulated cup right now. I this is why I got an actual thing for it. But like I put ice in it and I and it stays like that, and it it does pretty well for just around the state going camping, but um, I didn't think that was gonna be enough for that long of a trip.
SPEAKER_00Like you can get like um the sterile vials off of Amazon. You could measure out like this is how much I need to travel with and stuff like that, yeah. Or just leave enough in a vial that you already have going.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'd rather just they're small enough. I'd rather just take the everything, yeah. And then I have what I need. That's what I do, like I say when I'm camping. So um, I haven't weighed myself in a while, so I don't know where I am with that. Well, because if I'm not home, like my scale's at home. I haven't been home. I should just take it camping with me. I haven't before just weigh myself every day in the camper like I do at home.
SPEAKER_00I could do that, just make it part of your routine, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's what I do.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Um I don't drink coffee hardly at all. Stick mainly to the decaf if I do. I mean, it is weird because it's such a was a daily routine thing. Now it's like, but I also kind of similar to the food stuff. I don't think about it the same way. I miss it in the middle of the day or the afternoon, and I get tired, and I'm like, ugh, but I know better. Like I'll it'll wreck me. So and my sleep has been really good. So good. According to my watch, anyway. All right, get all the data. Yep. All right. Do you have a G spot before we do our topic? Nope.
SPEAKER_00I don't.
SPEAKER_01Oh right.
SPEAKER_00All right. You ready?
SPEAKER_01I'm ready.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So we're gonna I you know what? This is where I failed, is I didn't go back to see if we've done an episode on this before or not. I feel like we have, but I feel like we haven't.
SPEAKER_01I feel like we've talked about we've talked this about the subject a lot, but there's not an episode.
SPEAKER_00But okay, okay. Well, so we're gonna be talking about Lindy Bancroft's focusing mostly on his book, Why Does He Do That? And it's a book, and by, like I said, Lundy Bancroft, who has been, gosh, he really got his start. Let me write it, I wrote it down. He got his start like um being like working with abusive men. And so at some at one point, he was a co-director for the first counseling program in the US for abusive men. And he's has like over 30 years experience like working with these men and different types of programs. He's also a you know, uh he's an author, he's you know, does public speaking. You can Google his name. He's everywhere. There's tons of like his appearances on different podcasts and things like that. So if you're interested in hearing directly from him, he's easy to find. Um, I also think he's really, really interesting. He has his own website with like blog posts and so forth, which I was perusing um before this podcast. And, you know, he's he's this is his life's work. Like he is deep in it.
SPEAKER_01You can tell, yeah, because he reads his own book on the audio version.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, this is yeah, this is this is it. And he is, and he has it's such an interesting take, especially on his work, working with abusive men. And you know, he's been, of course, men come at him, and so does every other, like, is he talks about like, for example, being inclusive. And when people come to him and like, you know, men get abused too. And he's like, Yeah, but it's not the same. And he goes, he goes, Look, you know, it's like it's like saying, you know, uh he used an example of like children with cancer. And it'd be like, if he showed up and he was gonna come talk about child cancer and children, you know, and then he shows up, no, I'm gonna talk about adults and cancer. And it's like, you know, like what adults get cancer.
SPEAKER_01Like it's just so statistically less likely. Yes, yes, like by a huge margin, unless happens to be a male gay couple.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and he talks about man being violent. So yeah, he goes, Yeah, there are men, he he he is an interesting to statistic that he brought up that man on woman violence, it's it's high, you know, it's there. Woman on man violence, like woman as the abuser, it's like it's like way up here, man on woman, woman on man, it's super low. And you know, you're not you don't ever really see uh a man in a heterosexual relationship like afraid to leave, or like, oh no, I can't get out of this because of financial issues, or you know, the children, you know, and he also says when a man who might be getting abused by a woman gets out of a relationship, the likelihood of her coming and finding him and killing him is like zero. Yep. Whereas when you flip the script and it's a woman who escapes an abusive man, that's when they get murdered. Yep. So he's just like, look, there's nothing wrong with being woman focused and focusing on this issue, period. And I was like, Yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right. But oh, what was I saying about like gay couples? He goes, so it's like heterosexual couples, domestic violence, you know, and abuse, it's you know, it happens. And then there's he goes, there's really a nominal difference between um that you would think that maybe heterosexual couples would have more domestic violence, but it's kind of like on par, like gay couples and lesbian couples. So it's kind of interesting when you think about that.
SPEAKER_01I guess the like markers for victimizing people, you know what I mean? Like the someone who's gonna victimize someone else is gonna find someone who's gonna be a good victim. So I it might just be that's what they've done, you know what I mean? Like I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. He didn't he didn't offer an explanation, it was like one of his blog posts. So I was like, I was like, oh, that's interesting.
SPEAKER_01Because he doesn't get into that in the book except to say that like the vast majority is a man against a woman in a heterosexual relationship.
SPEAKER_00Yep, yep. So really what I want to do is like focus, and this is what we were talking about before we started recording, is perhaps we do a part like a part one and part two, just because there's so much. And I really want to spend time um thinking about like, you know, really his like whole, because he spends time on like myths about abusers, and then he spends time on like warning signs, and then the last thing that I really, really focused on was like, how can I tell, like, you know, am I being abused? Like, wait a second, you know, so um really, really focus on those three things. And um, you know, it it's just super interesting. And I will say, for me, at this juncture in my life, you know, I'm reading these things, I'm looking, I'm like, oh yeah, that was, you know, I'm thinking about past relationships. I'm like, that was really fucked up, you know, and I can see a lot of stuff in here, but it's interesting now because I'm just like, I'm not reading it going, oh, okay, let me watch out for that, because quite honestly, I don't care.
SPEAKER_01Like well, and I don't know if it's just reading the book and getting older and watching other things or whatever, but it's so much easier to spot now. You think yeah, I I think part of it is the awareness. Once you get in the mentality of it's it's not about his feelings, it's about how he thinks. That is like the driving point that he's making in this book. Um, then you quit caring about how a man feels about his abuse of a woman. You know, I mean like it once you once you sort of take that element out, it is a lot easier to go, oh yeah, he's just he is being shitty. He's just like there's no there's no reason, you know, there are reasons for it, but they're bad reasons.
SPEAKER_00They're super bad reasons. And I and I really feel like, and I'm reading through it. Another thing that hit me reading through it this time is I'm like, this everything that he's explaining, he could he could take it out instead of saying abusive partner, he could say red pill partner. It is I know I'm not kidding. A lot of these like strategies.
SPEAKER_01Well, I do think, yes, there's overlap, and I don't like the red pill thing, but I think like that's its own specific toxic, I don't know. Well, it's about but I I think it makes you look at that and uh ignore the the soft liberal guy that does the same shit. What do you mean? Because there are plenty of soft liberal guys that are manipulative and abusive. Oh yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, abusive. And I'm not, I'm not, yeah, I'm not trying to like when you make it about that, to me, it's well, the red pull bullshit there's no is about strategies of control.
SPEAKER_00That's what it is, and that's what abusive behavior is a strategy of control. Because if they're gonna overreact, or they're gonna throw a fit or they're gonna, you know, call you names, or they're gonna say something negative to you to make you feel like shit, it is all about a locus of control so that you will, it's not worth the hassle, or it's not this, or let me get I'll try it this way, or you know, it's all fucking control.
SPEAKER_01I guess I guess I would just caution against tying it to like just throwing it all together because the most insidious abuse often isn't the aggressive projecting. Yeah, you know, I mean the emotional manipulation can be I'm gonna kill myself. I I mean, and I and I don't I don't I don't know, I don't I don't consume a lot of that um because it's so bad. Like there's just no reason for me to consume.
SPEAKER_00As we go through, let me I will I would social media when we go through it, I'll show you like the connections I made. Like they're distinct connections.
SPEAKER_01Disagreeing that there are connections. What I what concerns me is writing it off as being in this all the same category because I think it would cause it. I I I think it's important to know that it's like could be any man at any time, and there are plenty of men that would actively rail against that and still be fucking abusive and awful.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Just a small counterpoint because reading through this is like so Lundy, he gives lots of like examples, like tangible examples, but he's very, very careful to say over and over and over throughout the book, one of these things at a any time just happened. Like, let's say you're with somebody, you know, for six months, and you he does one of like maybe he does, you know, let's see, what do I have written down? Like that, maybe he calls you a name one time. That's not an abusive man. What he's saying, it's a it's a repeatable pattern that like it's and it and it and there's an outcome where you have to change your behavior, otherwise you know that repeatable pattern, or you may not know when it's gonna happen again. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01Like it's yeah, I mean, I don't know that that proves anything politically about it or not.
SPEAKER_00I'm not going after the political, but the red pull pill bullshit is guys using strategies to get things in reactions and to push people, you know, boundaries that like they're getting some.
SPEAKER_01Probably just the most modern example of that mentality that's always that men have been because when he first wrote this book, that movement per se didn't really exist because the internet barely existed. And also men have been acculturated to this for since the beginning of time.
SPEAKER_00Oh, 100%.
SPEAKER_01Because they're physically larger. I mean, how more patriarchal societies and matriarchal. I mean, I just I it's almost like it gives another scapegoat, is I guess my concern, right? Like the men just need to be held accountable for their own bullshit. I don't care what Andrew Tate and his gay brothers say.
SPEAKER_00I guess what I'm saying is a little bit different. So let's say I'm an abusive guy and I've just I've picked up these patterns from a behavior from you know my childhood. I've picked them up like other dudes, like, yeah, I gotta get my woman under control. I picked it up from like a sense of entitlement from being a dude, whatever. And let's say I'm a regular dude, I know nothing about red pill stuff. And they're gonna go, damn. They're wow. But let's say you are a person that uses red pill strategies, you're gonna go, yep, this is exactly what we're talking about doing. Like, it's the same shit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's just a but yeah, I think it's just another excuse. I mean, like to be your own, be your own man. Don't let these people. Oh, no, no, no. I think it's I I I think it's awful and toxic. But a man's gonna abuse, a man's gonna abuse. I I don't know that he he's suddenly gonna get radicalized by these guys. It's just giving him an excuse.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, no, no. Yeah, oh 100%. But it is weird that it's also justified, like to be like an abusive guy, and then you can go join a group of abusive guys, and like, and that's in a yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, the internet's already also we've learned from the dark web in particular. I mean, any awful thing that you want to find a group for, you can find a group for now that in the past would have been a lot harder.
SPEAKER_00No, that's true. That's true. All right, so let's get into um the myths. And so um some of the well, first he kind of goes, he kind of gives a high-level like here, this is what he means by abuse, right? So again, like I said, talking about, you know, control, but that's the reason. But it's like it comes down to inconsistent behavior. Like you're like, if you're confused by the behavior, then that's usually like a big sign right there. You know, maybe it's an overreaction, or you know, maybe he says one thing, does another, you know, maybe there's rules for him, but not, you know, or rules for you, but not so much like all these inconsistencies. Um, you know, it's like, and then maybe they, or maybe they just have anger issues or, you know, stuff like that, whatever it is. Um, basically it's just a repeat repeatedly devaluing you. So it could be controlling money, it could be violent threats, it could be the silent treatment, it could be criticism, big and small. And basically, the outcome is always a controlling effect. The outcome is you're gonna change your behavior somehow.
SPEAKER_01And I liked what he said. I I don't know, it clicked for me in a different way this time reading through it. Um, the he used the word enforcement that that there's a mechanism of enforcement of his way. And that's that's a really good indicator. I don't know, I just not heard it that way before, but it's kind of like, yeah, you can have differing opinions. And if you're in a partnership, you're gonna have differing opinions sometimes about what your partner does, but it's sort of the enforcement of his rules or his point of view, right, are the most important. Yeah, however, he enforces that, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so, like if you're or you're with somebody who like every argument is turned back on you, like you never get to bring up anything, it's like and it gets turned back on you.
SPEAKER_01So, um, so we did have an episode on Darvos, so that's maybe not a lot of those will pop up in here, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So the nature of abusive thinking. So this is what I have next in my note. Um, and then we'll get to the myths because I feel like I'm going a little bit out of order. So basically, if you've ever like been in a relationship with someone, you're like, oh, it's like he's two different people. And it almost can feel like you're I mean, I've dated someone, I'm like, is he on drugs? Because this behavior is so inconsistent and weird. You know. Um, you know, it's like, and then some examples of like this sort of like, you know, like the inconsistent. Consistency, the two different people, like some, you know, it wasn't, it was just like one of the quotes from the women. Like, he calls me different, disgusting names, and then like an hour later, he wants to have sex. It's like, what the fuck? You you just call me, you made me, you know, I'm the most disgusting, gross human being. And now, oh, let's have sex. Like, what? Like, what a mime fuck. Um, so, and it's like, if you are like, if you're like with someone, you're like, something is wrong, but you can't quite put your finger on it because it isn't, like you said, the that's a good word, insidious. It's not always in your face. It's not like the big, oh, you know, I had a second date with a guy and he punched a hole in my wall. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's insanity. We're talking really small shit.
SPEAKER_01Well, as we'll learn from this book, it's not even always insanity.
SPEAKER_00Right, right. Sometimes it's a calculated yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01It's also calculated.
SPEAKER_00So, do you have like, are you trying to make sense of like this roller coaster? Or as soon as you think you have it all figured out, like there's some kind of puzzle, and you have to like, well, if I just if we talk about it like this, or we have this conversation, and okay, I know that I gotta do this, you know. Now we're gonna now everything's gonna be good. Well, then it's something else.
SPEAKER_01Now it's this is uh I see on Reddit a lot. The have you have you talked to him about it? Have you communicated your needs or your feelings? And like if you're at a point where you're having to ask Reddit, probably you have.
SPEAKER_00Lundy is a big thing of like you can talk about it all you want. It that's if you are with truly an abusive man, it you're not gonna be able to talk through it. It's just it's just not gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01It's never gonna be the right time. He's never gonna be in the right mood. Yeah. Um, your grievances are turned around. Sorry.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, your grievances are turned around on you so that everything is your fault. Um, attitude that he knows he knows better what's good for you, far better than what you do. And I've been in that one where it's like I've been told, like, especially with friends, you know, and and this is like, you know, where it's like um, you know, your friends, you know, they just, you know, they just want all your time, and you really, you know, you're spending too much time with your friends, and they're not even really good friends, where it's this isolation tactic where they want to split you off. Like they, you see what I'm saying? It's like maybe what maybe two weeks ago he was like trying to charm everybody and like, oh, you know, I'm gonna be and really get your friends like me. And now it's like because you how dare you have any other focus except for me. Now it's like you know you spend too much time with your friends, and they just want you to go do this and this, but you know, is that really is that really good for you? And you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, and just shaming you for just having any sort of life outside of that relationship. Um, and it is, and he does touch back on this. It's like it's confusing because this behavior can still be caring and affectionate, and you may even love him, so it is very confusing.
SPEAKER_01I feel like that's so beside the point of any of it.
SPEAKER_00What do you mean? Why?
SPEAKER_01I I mean you're putting up with it because you love him, I would say, but like the men in his group will say they love their wives and partners also. And and in fact, that sometimes that's their excuse. They're like, Yeah, you know, because you hurt the ones closest to you. Yes, it's because I love her so much. Yeah, I mean I'm just saying, I I I get that, and that's part of what ties you to somebody, and you don't want to get out of it, but I it it's not always what only reason why people stay. I realize there's safety issues and all that stuff, but like or children involved, yeah. What whether you whether or not you love him, it it won't change the fact that he he's doing this. Kind of like how you're saying Lindy says it doesn't matter how you bring it up with him. It you're never gonna love him hard enough.
SPEAKER_00It I will tell you, as someone who's been in some pretty fucked up relationships, it really, really, really sucks when you're in love with a really not so great person. You're it's you like your rational brain is like, this is really fucked up, but then your heart's like it, it is it's a push-pull even within your own self. Oh, I'm sure. And I understand that like there's probably women out there that are like still completely in love and fantasize that one day their abusive guy will, you know, have an aha moment and turn it all around.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I know that. I know that. I've worked with, I've had students in my when I when I was teaching, I had this one student who, you know, the beginning of the semester, like she's turning her life around. She's very open about the fact that she was getting out of an abusive relationship. And she actually came to me and she was she was she was quitting school because she just loved him so much, and she was gonna get back together with him, and she had to give up school. And I'm like, damn.
SPEAKER_01And that was his directive, I guess. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It was like, damn, yeah. It's it's powerful stuff. That's why it's that's why there's entire books, and you know, yeah, because it's it's tough. You're in a tough spot. So some of the myths, and if you have the copy, it's like on pages like 23. Um, so the myths he talks about, like, about an abusive man, like why is he abusive? So, and he does this. This is an exercise that he does when he works with groups, and he'll ask people, like, um, you know, what, you know, like he says, in my public presentations on abuse, I often begin with a simple exercise. I ask the audience members to write down everything they've ever heard or believed about where an abuser's problem comes from. And so he has them brainstorm. And so some of the myths that they come up with, number one, he was abused as a child. So this, yeah, that ex that's that excuse. Well, you know, he grew up in an abusive home. That's all he's ever known. So that's like that idea that if we can only rehabilitate him, show him the healthy way or something. Um, his previous partner hurt him. So he's been hurt so bad that he just doesn't know how to act, doesn't know how to not be jealous or, you know, controlling those type of things. Um, he abuses the ones he loves the most. That's what you, you know, you're you mentioned that. Um he holds in his feelings too much. I've actually said this before in a relationship, like, well, he just hold it all in and all of a sudden it's just like it comes out like, you know, like this huge tantrum. And I was just, I was under this belief that like if we could just get to where he could regulate, he didn't have to hold it in so much. Like, let's talk about it before it gets there. But little did I know, the tantrum was the control mechanism.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00My God. Um, you know, so some of those, like he has an aggressive personality. Um, let's see, he loses control. Um, he hates women, which is just a weird one. Um, he's afraid of intimacy and abandonment. Um, let's see. He has poor communication skills in conflict resolution. And then, and Lundy actually digs into that one because he's like, Yeah, but somehow these guys can hold down a job and resolve conflict at work and you know, other avenues of light in life, but yet with you, they just are unable to even face a conflict like a rational human being. So, you know. So, yeah, he kind of puts those to bed. Like, you know, a bad childhood doesn't cause a man to become an abuser. Um, and he says, if abusiveness were the product of childhood emotional injury, abusers could overcome through psychotherapy. So he's like, that doesn't work. Like he's like, they don't they can't go get therapy for this. Like, um, therapy, and then then he goes in, he tells, and this is I thought was interesting. He's like, therapy can actually make it worse. Because then they use therapy to develop new excuses and more sophisticated arguments. And I'm like, that's scary. Um, and then for some, it creates, especially if it's like my mom was abusive, it creates this like focus on his mother and what she did wrong, so that he can blame women for his mistreatment of women. Like, what? Like that's that's crazy town. And then, you know, he asks, like, um, where he talks about like he kind of closes out, he's like, he goes, he, I don't know, Lundy, he's fascinating because you know, he's giving all this information and like how to, you know, like here's the myths of an abusive man. And are you thinking obviously you're reading this book probably because you might be facing something or being like, what's going on? And he's like, really, at the end of the day, he goes, You don't need an expert on abuse to explain your life to you. Like, you know, you see, basically what he's saying, you trust yourself. Trust yourself.
SPEAKER_01Um well, and I he also, I don't know if it's in that section, but he talks about how if you really are this like victim of abuse, you should be more empathetic to your partner and and understand how abuse would affect the person that you supposedly care about.
SPEAKER_00Right. If you know how terrible abuse is, then you know how painful it is. So why would you inflict that on someone else? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, that's the like, oh my god.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's like in both in this version, it has uh he what hit a point he wanted to make. He generally stops mentioning his, or once he makes a point of him, like you don't treat all, you know what I mean. Uh he only wants to draw attention to it if it's an excuse to stay the same, not a reason to change.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Which is where I go back to it. Really, I don't care how he feels. I don't I don't care about his feelings for this read in this context.
SPEAKER_00Well, and then, you know, that is 100% like our beef with Esther Perot. That's that's been basically our biggest beef with the her approach to therapy and couples therapy is that the he's being shitty and abusive.
SPEAKER_01So who the fuck is giving him the excuses for it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, who the fuck gives about his childhood wounds? Like that's not gonna fix any of this.
SPEAKER_01And and plenty of people were abused by their parents that don't abuse their partners.
SPEAKER_00Right. Right. So what's so what's so special? So there's like, I like really like this is on page 111. And he's like, he has it broken down by questions, and this is question seven. When he is so good early on, is he planning to be abusive later? You know, like when you meet someone, it's all like, it's like, oh, he's perfect, everything was so great in the beginning. And it's like, so the the question is like, was he just planning on being abusive shit later on all the whole time? Like if this was inevitable, like what are you working with here?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, that's part of the mystery. I feel like, yes, I don't know if it's a conscious plan, but like he feels entitled to something. I don't know that it just just sort of happens, like it doesn't come from nowhere.
SPEAKER_00I think, and so what he writes, and I found this kind of interesting, like, so it says, Does he have it all planned out? Is he deliberately deliberately hooking her emotionally so he can be cruel to her later? The answer is usually no. The abuser doesn't picture himself yelling, degrading her, or hurling objects at her. As he falls in love, he dreams of a happy future, of conjugal bliss, just as the woman does. So, if he isn't laying plans to hurt her, what is going on in his mind? First, he is gazing love longingly at the image he holds of the future, where the woman meets all his needs, is beautiful and sexy at all times of the day and night, has no needs of her own, of her own, and is in awe of his brilliance and charm. He desires a woman who will cater to him and never complain about anything he does or darken his day with frustrations or unhappiness about her own life. That I 100% believe.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a really helpful way to frame it. Because, yeah, because you're like, I mean, and it's a pattern. If you if you look at uh, are we dating the same guy? There are patterns.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And that's really, I mean, at the at the crux of it, like that's what he's talking about, is like identifying this is like looking for those patterns. It is pattern recognition, 100%.
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, that's a good point. That no, he doesn't, it's not that he's envisioning the abuse part, but it's more that he's so self-focused that you're not a real person. She's yeah, she's like kind of incidental to the equation.
SPEAKER_00It's just gonna be blissful as long as she never has a need or want or a bad day, you know, then perfect. It's perfect. So on page 114 is when he really starts into that. Like, um he's like, or he calls them early warning signs. And you know, as we know, we call them, we now call them red flags, which is the popular, popular culture thing to call them. And he's like, How can I tell if a man will become abusive? And so he lays that out, and he's like, if he is disrespectful to you, and to me, that's almost like, well, in the beginning, like what would he be dis and I'm like, but they I mean, you know what? They still are if you pay attention.
SPEAKER_01Right. I think it's easier to forgive in the beginning. You're like, that's not blame yourself for stuff like I don't know. If they're I don't know, I'm trying to think of things like they're consistently late to meet up with you. I don't yeah, and I would get the dumbest, and to me, the dumbest excuses, but that I've but I've complained about this white night thing where they think they have to help everybody, and they're late because they helped some woman with a flat tire, like they were the only person in the world that could help her, but it ended up being disrespectful of me and my time and our time together consistently.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, little it's it's very in the beginning, it's only going to be small things, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's easy to excuse at first. You're like, okay, listen, I don't, you know, we're new.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And also, you don't want to put something heavy on him when you're new. Like, that's as a younger person in a relationship where I definitely saw red flags, but like, like, I I don't want to come off, I don't want to be negative, I don't want to be coming down hard on him, or and I don't want to do it too early. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to set the stage of this being I'm always nagging him or whatever it is, even though it's like a genuine issue that needs to be addressed. I'm good at like coming up with reasons to avoid that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, oh 100%. Like the first time that like the first, and we were still very new. The first time Dave ever came over to my house but brought himself food but didn't bring me anything. That's to me like what? Yeah, I wouldn't show up uh empty uh yeah, weird.
SPEAKER_01Or like Bill introducing me as his girlfriend without asking me to be his girlfriend, and then not understanding why that was something I wasn't real pleased about. Well, you were just supposed to be-be complimented that a man chose me, or yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00You're just supposed to be so excited, yeah. Oh, let's see. So, really, this this, you know, he's like, he's disrespectful towards you. And the very first sentence under that is disrespect is the soil in which abuse grows. And I'm like, yup. And like, if a man puts you down or sneers at your opinions, if he is rude to you in front of other people, if he's cutting or sarcastic, if he's communicating a lack of respect, if these kinds of behaviors are a recurring problem, or if he defends them when you complain about how they affect you, control and abuse are likely to be the offing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00100%.
SPEAKER_01This is sometimes easier to see in other couples.
SPEAKER_00It is.
SPEAKER_01You know, you'll catch the cutting remarks and stuff. Like, I guess they think they're being, I don't know. But this is also like when I see in dating apps on a profile where they say sarcasm is my love language. I mean, that's a left swipe for me now. Because or I all I can see is it going down the road of well, you can't take a joke.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like it totally belittling your feelings about it, like, and it's just supposed to be hilarious, yeah. Ugh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Here's one that I find kind of interesting. He does favors for you that you don't want or puts on such a show of generosity that it makes you uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00So here's a really like um, like here's here's an example. So this is like, I don't know, it doesn't say the client, it's just a client says, and she says, our first few dates were exciting and fun. I remember him arriving at my house with our evening all planned out. No, not that one. Shoot, that's the wrong one. Oh, no, here it is. Okay. Let's see. She goes, first, Robert called after a snowstorm and offered to shovel her driveway. She said, Oh, please don't, because she wasn't sure how serious she felt about him and didn't want to lead him on. When she got off the train from work that afternoon, she found her driveway completely cleared. And so it's like, crap. You know, just something, it's like it's and it's used, you know, being over like, oh, I got this for you. It's like it makes you have that feeling of like, oh, now I owe them something. Or, you know, and when they will, and they will use that, they will throw that back in your face because it is, it is like, well, I did all this and I did all that. And it's and it's just to them, it's like they're putting money in a bank account or something. Yeah. And it's like, I didn't, and you're just like, well, that was nice, you know, okay. If I guess if they want to do that, that's how they choose to spend their time. They're a whole ass adult. You know, I like, I don't feel like I owe you shit, but I've had uh that is burnt come back to burn me so many times, to the point where I'm like, please don't do anything for me. Yeah, just don't. Um, so another one, he is controlling. And, you know, he talks about that, usually begins in subtle ways. It's like um that it and it's control is so like I said, and I've said this on this podcast, concern is just control. Like, what is it, or control disguised as concern is still control. Like, I'm just worried about you. I need you to text, I need you to call me. Like, I'm like, I have a whole ass job. I can't spend my day checking in with you, or you know, that sort of shit. It's like I've I've navigated 52 years of this. Life. I don't need to call you like on my way home or text you that I made it some. I'm like, I'm good. I'm good. And it's like, I and I really am one of those people. I'm not going to sit there on my phone when I'm out with people. So, and like if I'm out with somebody that I'm dating, I purposely am not sitting there on my phone. You see my normal behavior. So why would I sit there when I'm out with my friends and just be on my phone texting you? Right. Like, get out of my face with that. That to me, like that's the first, that's always that first indicator. And it's like, mm-mm, we're not playing that game. I'm not doing it. Um, let's see. What was it say? Okay, talking about um, oh, here's another one. Possessive is kind of the same, like jealousy, which might feel kind of like nice at first. You're like, oh my God, he just really likes me, wants me all to himself. And then before you know it, that's like back into that control. Um, let's see, I have something written down. Uh, what is it? Be cautious of a man who says you're nothing like the other women he has been with. Because you will then be tempted to prove you aren't like those other women, and then boom. And you already, like you're already one foot in that trap at that point. Um, and then because eventually he's just gonna, this is only so for him to be like, yep, you're just like them. Eventually it'll happen. Um, so it's just one of those. I hate that shit. Anything that has to do with triangulation, I'm like, get out of my. I'm like that's one of my like warning bells. Like, oh yeah, you start telling me about well, my or their ex is amazing. Well, my ex never wanted those things. My ex only, you know, and I'm like, then go be with her. Get out of my face. We're not gonna play that game. I don't need to hate another woman, I don't need to be jealous of another woman. I don't even need to hear about this other woman.
SPEAKER_01This would definitely make me hesitant to date a widower again. Like, yeah, because she becomes a saint sometimes when she dies. The spot, like, I don't know. I don't I don't think I can handle that. Yeah, I mean, if you can fully be in another, a different relationship, it's not that right, like life happens, yes, but I have encountered that with men. I'm like, I'm never gonna, I'm I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna compete with a living person, much less a dead one.
SPEAKER_00And I don't think it has anything to do with them being a widower. It's like now those men have seized an opportunity to again hold this over your head. Yeah. Like now they have this character that they can like put anything on and be like, you'll never measure up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And then women will be like, Yeah, that that's which happened with that guy dated for a hot minute after his wife died. Really? They met before she died. Because the way he talked about her before she got cancer and died was big when I even kind of talked around that yeah after. Oh no, no, no. She, you know, uh, she was basically he sainted her. Stop. Yeah, it was it was very subtle, but I was like, oh no. Oh no. Like you just kind of now I'm even more aware, you know, like oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. And then he says, be aware of people, if guys like nothing is ever his fault. Like it's always somebody or something, because eventually, guess what? You're gonna be that somebody or something. Oh, yeah. It'll be your fault. Um, if he is self-centered, um, this one I thought was really interesting. Like, pay attention. Does he like stop and actually listen to you? Is he curious? Because if not, he's never gonna get over that. It's always gonna be about him. He's like, that's he goes, self-centered is a personality characteristic that is highly resistant to change, as it has deep roots in either profound entitlement in abusers, or to severe early emotional injuries in non-abuser, uh, non-abusers, or both in narcissistic abusers.
SPEAKER_01So, um, you know, I think this happens sometimes with guys who don't don't want to live apart from their family. And it might be related to more than one point here, but like what do you mean? Like, first of all, they they if it's if it's a discussion of who's gonna go to whom, or if you're if you're in a long distance relationship and there's never any interest, but also I think there's a I think there's a tactic of like having your people right there, like he feels more powerful because he's got yeah, he's got got a he's got the group think and they're all on his side. The people who are gonna act like he's always in the right, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, 100%. Yeah. You're walking into like this sort of like situation where he's he's like the golden boy, and you're just like, yeah. Um if he wants to get serious too quickly about the relationship, which you know, for many women, they're like, Yay! Oh, he wants to talk about the future, like future faking or whatever, whatever it is.
SPEAKER_01Oh, then that's yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, it's like basically, you know, if he jumps too soon into planning your future together without taking enough time to get to know you and grow close, because that means that he's trying to wrap you up tightly into a package that he can own. That's that's where you get into those. You're basically a wife appliance or a girlfriend appliance because it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_01You don't even know me. How can you be this?
SPEAKER_00Yes. Like, that's what that is. It's like it doesn't matter. You're like an interchangeable paper doll. Like, okay, did it. Have one of those. I got one of those women appliances. Yeah. And of course, he intimidates you when he's angry. I mean, I feel like this is a no-brainer, but then I know what people were humans are crazy. They put up with stuff. Um, you know, it's like he gets too close to you when he's angry, puts a finger in your face, pokes you, pushes you, blocks your way, or restrains you. Um, or if he tells you he's just trying to make you listen. Um, you know, he drives recklessly or speeds up when he's angry. Of course, if he punches walls or kicks doors, throws things around, even if they don't hit you, right? These are all just precursors to like you're next.
SPEAKER_01I even see I see this in men. I don't even uh there are some men that that is their MO the whole time. Like they use their physicality. And it's almost like a it's almost like second nature. So you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I don't want to see where this leads.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, 100%. Um, he has that I've mentioned this, he has double standards. So the guy who has a different set of rules for his behavior than for yours. That means it's like that that's where it's like the goalposts, you're never gonna figure it out.
SPEAKER_01Oh no.
SPEAKER_00You're never going to. And it's super cool for him to be out like, I'm going, I'm gonna go. He can come and go as he pleases. You, my friend, on the other hand, have a bunch of roles, some of them you don't even know about, that you're gonna fuck up. You just wait. Um, negative attitudes towards women. I feel like this is a no-brainer, but people, women fall for it all the fucking time. Where my ex was crazy, she's a terrible person, and you know, that or though my coworker, she's just a slut. And it's just like all of be pay attention to those words. Pay attention to that. That's that's a complete disdain for women in general, and you're not different or special. That's that's an all-women thing. Um, he treats you differently around other people. Um, I've had this happen. So, like, whenever anybody else is around, like um, so it says adult abusers tend to put on a show of treating their partners like gold when anyone is watching, reserving most of their abuse for times when no one else will see. So, yeah, I remember I dated someone and I only got, I would get, they were wonderful compliments. I got, but it was like these amazing compliments, but only when it was around other people. Like, oh, Lisa's doing, you should see what she did. She's just so I'm like, that stuff was never said to me in private. But it was an act that's all performative. So um this one's, I think this is a big one that I don't know that it's very subtle, is like he appears to be attracted to vulnerability. So one of the examples, this is a like, this is a no-brainer. Um, if there's like a big age gap. So if you're like in your 20s and this like 40-year-old is like, you know, lurking around, or like that, that's you're vulnerable. You are not, there's a power imbalance, you don't have the life experience, you know, that sort of thing, or you've just been through something traumatic. Now, maybe there's no age gap, but you're just coming out of something traumatic, and these guys have that savior. Like, I want to be the savior.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And, you know, it's just because they want to, they want to put them like they're this, they want to see themselves as this, as this rescuer, this guy who can who can come in and fix it all. Um so yeah, I think that's that's super, super interesting. And I don't know, the book is really readable because he goes through all these and he does these nice little like chapter wrap-ups where he's like, okay, here's the whole list by itself. Just the list.
SPEAKER_01Like he's gonna the writing's really good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he's gonna reinforce it.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's it sticks to your ribs. It does. Like, well, I've been thinking about this book since the first time I read it. And it and and you see the behaviors, like I say, it changes your mindset. But I think we're I think you're absolutely right. We're gonna have to do more than one. I know, I'm telling you. I know deep here, I think this is a good stopping place.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Because we got to the end of that list. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I will say again, uh back to what I'm reiterating, is like abuse, it is it's not because they love you so much. It's not because they have anger issues, it's not because they were abused as a kid. You know what I'm saying? It's like they those are excuses. It is abuse is about power. It means that a person is taking advantage of a power imbalance to exploit or control someone else. And I think when you distill it down to that, it becomes a lot easier to like you can you can start to get in that rational brain about it. And not so much like, oh, but he making excuses, like try trying to rationalize their b no, stop it. Stop stop making excuses for them.
SPEAKER_01Right. Wow, that's that's a good spot to stop. All right.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I can tell you've had enough. All right.
SPEAKER_01These are good points. This is the minute makes what it makes the podcast, where we do what we want, and we're out.